The purpose of this thread is to examine the possibility that the Island of Atlantis sank beneath the Sea of Azov, in 9,600 BC. The Atlantis in Azov theory was first published in 2003, in the Atlantis Motherland book by my partner, Flying Eagle and me (Whispering Wind). Our newest research, updates and information may be viewed at the Atlantis-Today website.
Previously, I have been posting on the Atlantis in the Black Sea thread, by the kind invitation of Atlantis 3345, which presents Atlantis as a Bronze Age civilization located north of the Black Sea. We propose that the Black Sea Atlantis proposed by Prof. Siegfried Schoppe and Christian Schoppe was founded by survivors of the inundation of Atlantis beneath the Sea of Azov.
I have also recently posted on the Atlantis in Israel thread, by the kind invitation of Jaime Manuschevich. We propose Atlantis in Israel, as proposed by Jaime Manuschevich, was founded by the survivors of the Atlantean province of Egypt, which we propose was located in Colchis, Georgia, prior to the inundation of Atlantis.
My dear friends and I have differing opinions of the location and timeline of Atlantis. Sharing our perspectives ignites new areas of exciting information to explore. I extend my sincere thanks to my friends for the warm communications and stimulating debate we have shared. I invite all forum members to add your unique perspectives regarding the Atlantis in Azov theory.
Live in Harmony. Enjoy Life! the whispering wind of EagleWind
Let’s begin by examining the similarities between the destruction of the Island of Atlantis and the creation of the Sea of Azov. Evidence supports that the Sea of Azov was a vast, flat, oblong, well-watered, very fertile plain which sank, by devastating earthquakes, and became a sea, by catastrophic flooding, at the end of the late Pleistocene or early Holocene.
Did the Island of Atlantis sink beneath the Sea of Azov?
The Atlantis Motherland project suggests that Plato's Dialogues regarding Atlantis describe that a new and separate sea was formed where the island of Atlantis sank, during one terrible day and night of misfortune. Evidence supports that the former Azov fertile plain experienced a sudden 8 to 10 meter sink, circa 9,600 BC. That’s a whopper! It shook, rattled and rolled the surrounding mountains; it broke the gateway holding back the Caspian Sea and SPOOSH! The overflowing Caspian Sea burst across the Azovian plain. Tsunami waves, from the Black Sea, crashed over the peninsulas and also flooded the plain. This event occurred as a result of the massive flooding at the end of the Younger Dryas ice age. An overview of our theory and links to related articles are presented in our Great Atlantis Flood theory.
There are many geological, geographical and cultural similarities between the Island of Atlantis and the former fertile plain that was located in Crimea, in southern Ukraine and Krasnodar Kray, in southern Russia. I appreciate the opportunity, and look forward with delight, to engaging in a fascinating discussion of the history, evolution of culture, archeology, people, myths, geology and hydrology of the area in and around the Sea of Azov, as it relates to the history of Atlantis.
Live in Harmony. Enjoy Life! the whispering wind of EagleWind
Posts: 119 | From: Maui, Hawaii | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
In September 2001, archaeologists in Scotland discovered evidence of a massive tidal wave that swept across the North Sea c. 5800 BCE. This tidal wave killed thousands and caused widespread destruction on the northern coasts of Europe, severing the British Isles from the mainland. The North Sea event occurred roughly about the same time the Mediterranean broke through the earthen dam at what is now the Bosphorus Strait, flooding the Black Sea.
According to the Ballard expeditions, based on the Ryan and Pitman theory, the Black Sea flood occured around 5,500 BCE. Before that point, the Sea of Azov was indeed a flat plain.
I would be interested in any information you may have that updates this material.
Briwnys
-------------------- To those who understand, no explanation is necessary; to those who do not, no explanation is possible Posts: 661 | From: East Texas | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
I respectfully disagree with Pitman and Ryan’s flood theory. Ballard's expedition was inconclusive regarding the flood theory. We reverse the direction of the opening of the Bosporus, in our Great Atlantis Flood theory.We propose that the Black Sea burst into the Mediterranean Sea, thus washing the farmlands of the Hellenes into the sea.
A presentation called, “High resolution records show continuous sedimentation at 69 m water depth on SW Black Sea Shelf disprove major Holocene flooding for the past 9.3 ka” was presented at the “Black Sea-Mediterranean Corridor during last 30 ky: Sea level change and human adaptation”, First Plenary Meeting, Istanbul, Turkey, October 8-15, 2005. I am looking for the full report. I will post it when I find it online.
posted
According to A. L. Tchepalyga, the connection of the Caspian Basin through the Manych Strait to the Azov and Black sea only existed until the late Khvalynian transgression, which is dated no later than 13,000 BCE. Do you have new data supporting a later connection?
-------------------- To those who understand, no explanation is necessary; to those who do not, no explanation is possible Posts: 661 | From: East Texas | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
Thanks for your question. In response to your request for “new data supporting a later connection” of the Caspian Sea to the Sea of Azov. I have gathered some older and newer information that brings the connection within the target date of 9,600 BC.
quote: “Dating of Caspian sea level in the Late Pleistocene and the Holocene has been unusually difficult owing to a variety of reasons, and large discrepancies exist between results from different research teams. In addition, a noticable difference between the present-day 14C activity of sea surface (TDIC) and atmospheric CO2, has been found (detailed in Escudié et al. 1998). 14C ages might be unreliable because of methane production in submarine mudvolcanoes, presence of carbonate particles (hard water reservoir effect), detrital carbonates, detrital organic matter.”
“The Khvalyn marine terraces in Dagestan consistently range in age between 70 ka for the uppermost (oldest) ones to 14.6 ka for the lower (youngest) terrace according to TL datings (Rychagov, 1977). However, these same terraces all gave 14C mollusc ages between 15 and 8 ka, and are indistinguishable by this method. Also U-Th ages are in the range of the 14C ages (Rychagov, 1977). While Rychagov (1977) accepts the TL ages as being the most reliable on the base of their geomorphological consistency, Svitoch (1991) argues for acceptance of the 14C ages on the basis of their proximity in age, their coincidence with the U-Th datings, the fact that they have been obtained by different laboratories and are in the optimal range for this type of datings. In his view, part of the Khvalyn is early Holocene (see also Svitoch et al., 1987, 1993; Kaplin et al., 1993).”
There is no single opinion concerning the time when Khvalyn lake reached its maximum levels. It is believed that this took place some 45 thousand years ago (Fedorov, 1957), however, results of radiocarbon analysis of carbonaceous and vegetative materials indicate to a younger age of this event - 10.8-19.0 thousand years ago.
It is considered that the maximum level of the Upper Khvalyn transgression was close to the initial level. In the opinion of some researchers (Fedorov, 1957), the peak of this transgression coincides with the end of the last glacial period, i.e. 9-10 thousand years ago . However, other authors (Mayev et.al. 1983) supported by the results the radiocarbon analysis of shell carbonate, suggest a smaller age - 6.8-8 thousand years ago.
“Based on systematization and critical analysis of all known findings of fossil molluscan fauna from the Caspian and Black sea regions, as well as from the Manych depression, detailed schemes of the paleogeographical evolution of these areas were worked out. Correlation of the established paleoevents revealed the major paleogeographical changes to be generally synchronous (Table 1). The Early Pleistocene Bakunian transgression of the Caspian Sea corresponded to the Late Chaudian one of the Black Sea. The Middle Pleistocene Early Khazarian and Ancient Euksinian transgressions were relatively synchronous. During the Late Pleistocene, the vast interglacial Karangatian transgression of the Pontian basin correlated in time with the small Late Khazarian transgression of the Caspian Sea, while the New Euksinian basin with sea-level far below zero mark was synchronous to the vast Early Khvalinian transgression of the Caspian Sea.”
Correlation of Pleistocene paleoevents in the Ponto-Caspian area, Yanina T.A. , Faculty of Geography, Moscow State University, Russia. From: INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON RAPID SEA LEVEL CHANGE- A CASPIAN PERSPECTIVE, May 2-9, 2005 Rasht, Islamic Republic of Iran. (scroll down the page to 2nd table.)
Live in Harmony. Enjoy Life! the whispering wind of EagleWind
If I may backtrack for a moment, I would like to comment on the formation of the Sea of Azov, which you mentioned in your first post. We propose that the Sea of Azov formed in 9,600 BC, as opposed to around 5,500 BCE. The fault that caused the Sea of Azov to sink ran along the southern edge of the Sea of Azov. When the plain sank the Kerch and Taman peninsulas became a barrier (shoals of mud) between the newly formed depression and the Black Sea. The flood from the Caspian Sea and/or tsunami waves from the Black Sea would have filled this depression. The barrier would have held the flood waters behind it thus forming the Sea of Azov. The sea was then supplied with water by the mighty Don and Kuban rivers.
The IGCP 521 Project outlines that the Black Sea-Mediterranean Corridor, over the past 30 ky, underwent a complicated history, which remains hotly debated. Prof. Valentina Yanko-Hombach, et al, has edited a book titled, The Black Sea Flood Question: Changes in Coastline, Climate And Human Settlement (July, 2006), that I have not had the opportunity to study yet. Hopefully this collection of studies will add valuable information to this “hot debate.” The Black Sea-Mediterranean Corridor Project is quite an exciting project, its bringing together research from around the world.
Thanks for your questions.
Live in Harmony. Enjoy Life! the whispering wind of EagleWind
posted
The statement about continuous sedimentation at 69 m water depth offered as proof that no major Holocene flooding has occurred for the past 9.3 ka is somewhat startling. It was my understanding that events in the North Sea and the Baltic impacted the Black Sea/Caspian Sea area, which brings up the question of what impact the Storegga Slide and megatsunami event of 6100 BCE had on this area.
Also, disregarding the direction of the Sea of Azov, the question of the Pillars of Herakles and the rest of the description given by Plato, how do you explain the location of Gades and the Atlantic in relation to your theory?
From what you have presented, it appears your data may be valid, EagleWind, but there are many sunken cities. Not all of them can be the Atlantis fitting Plato's description. It will be interesting to watch the development of this theory.
-------------------- To those who understand, no explanation is necessary; to those who do not, no explanation is possible Posts: 661 | From: East Texas | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
We propose that the evidence of Atlantis is difficult to recognize now, because it’s already been found, looted, excavated, mined, melted-down, smelted, repaired, re-cast, re-hewn, sold, stolen and lost again, by the millions and millions and millions of people who have lived and died on this sacred land. Some times enjoying abundantly fruitful lives and other times suffering horrible deaths wrought by the cruelty of tyranny. You may view more detail in an overview of our dramatized scenario of the discovering and re-discovering of Atlantis, down through the last 11,000 years, in our article titled the Atlantis Code.
Regarding the location of the Atlantic Ocean , in relation to our Atlantis in Azov theory:
In considering this wide range of possibilities, the psyche of Humans should be worked into the equations. Reverence for the ancestors is a primal Human emotion, and another natural primal emotion is greed. By contemplating the possible consequences of these two basic Human passions, we propose that the most likely scenario is that the location of the sea where the Island of Atlantis sank was purposely concealed by the Egyptians.
We propose that the Egyptians purposely altered the place-names to create confusion and send competitors out into the Atlantic Ocean in a futile attempt to find Atlantis. They substituted Gibraltar for the Bosporus and re-named the locations around the Black Sea to correspond with locations around the Mediterranean Sea, that were familiar to the populous. This act of deception would conceal the riches of Atlantis from foreign looters, meanwhile leaving the Egyptians free to explore and exploit Atlantis, which was located on an almost forgotten and impenetrable sea, far to the north.
Regarding the location of the Pillars of Heracles:
We propose the Pillars of Heracles was Symplegades. The very common practice of transporting geographical place names, along with the migrations of people, might have caused confusion in the true location of these elusive Pillars. As examples, Kerch strait was known as Bosporus, and Memphis is now located in Tennessee, and Athens is located in Georgia, etc.
The myth of Heracles opening the straits coincides quite well with the geological event of the opening of the narrow Bosporus strait, which occurred about 5,600 BC, well within the memory of Humans. The precise geographical description of the straits of Heracles matches very well with the Dardanelles (narrow entrance), the Sea of Marmara (the sea within the straits of Heracles), and the Bosporus (entrance into the true ocean).
The new and separate sea theory:
We propose a strong argument can be made that the Dialogues, regarding Atlantis, clearly present that the sea into which the island of Atlantis sank was a new and separate sea, from the sea which the canals of Atlantis flowed into. The island of Atlantis was not surrounded by ocean; it was surrounded by a boundless continent, and there was a barrier of land between the island and the sea. We propose that this barrier, comprised of the Kerch and Taman peninsulas, was not destroyed during the earthquakes and floods. The channel to the sea was then blocked by a shoal of mud.
Archeological evidence of Atlantis:
We propose that much of the treasures of Atlantis have been found already. They have been excavated and hauled off for various uses by various nations for thousands of years. However, all the evidence of such a large civilization could not disappear. Some discoveries that we are currently investigating are:
Considering the nature of tsunami waves, if tidal waves swept over the City of Atlantis, the debris would have been carried into the Sea of Azov, then the back flow of the wave would have deposited the debris on the north shore of the Kerch and Taman peninsulas. Evidence of a colluvial deposit of large blocks and fragments buried on the northern side of Kerch strait was reported by A. A. Nikonov of the Joint Institute of Physics of the Earth, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moscow, in Geotectonics, April, 1995. Download file, open and scroll to Figure 3, at the top of page 5.
Another interesting find, is a 15 meter thick wall that was discovered submerged in Taman Bay. The Kimmerijsky wall and ditch may have originally been part of the outer wall of the city of Atlantis. If Atlantis was centered on Mythridat Hill, the outer wall would have passed through Taman Bay. From Underwater Ground Penetrating Radar in Archeological Investigation below Sea Bottom, 2004
A large remnant of the “incredible ditch” which surrounded the island may have been utilized in what is now called the furrow of Novac, which is a large ditch extending east and west, just north of the Sea of Azov. From PREHISTORIC DACIA, PART 1 – Ch.VIII, The giant plough furrow of Novac (Osiris, A monument commemorating the introduction of agriculture.
Although we do not support Ryan and Pitman’s Noah’s Flood theory, they have reported interesting information regarding Kerch Strait. During a drilling project for the possible construction of a bridge between Kerch and Taman peninsulas, a channel to the sea was found submerged in Kerch Strait. Russian scientists were able to show that there was a channel of the Don River that went right through Kerch Strait. They traced that channel down to a depth of 80 meters. Moreover, they determined that much of the submerged area had been exposed at one time. It showed that the level of the waters had inundated this area very rapidly, that it had gone from being exposed to deep-water deposition almost instantaneously. From ‘Great Flood' Theory Passes Science Test, by David Brown, under Seeing Is Believing.
There are many more exciting investigations underway. An as yet unconfirmed find of pyramids in Crimea is fascinating.
Live in Harmony. Enjoy life! EagleWind
Posts: 119 | From: Maui, Hawaii | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
Your theory has much to support it, and I look forward to more news of discoveries in that area. However, I believe what you have found may be Urheimat, the legendary homeland of the Indo-Europeans, and not the island of Atlantis.
Your date of 8000 BCE for the beginning of Egyptian civilization is too old. Civilization did not come to the Middle East until after 5600 BCE, when the Ubaidians first set up a collection of farming villages in the area we call Sumner.
Marija Gimbutas identifies the Ubaidians as the Dnieper Donets Culture, a Baltic people who moved south, following the Dnieper river toward the Crimea when sea levels began to rise around the Baltic.
These were the proto Indo-Europeans who had first settled in Urheimat, the Indo-European homeland, where they remained until the Black Sea flood around 5600 BC. Gimbutas writes that the Dnieper Donets people were descendants of Paleolithic Cro-Magnon man. Their pottery is related to the Baltic Memel Culture and their burial practices are similar to those found at Zvejnieki, the largest and oldest cemetery in all of northern Europe, which is dated to the Mesolithic prehistoric period between 7000 and 5000 BCE.
Gimbutas also believed that the Mesopotamian Sumerians and Samarians were the same people as the Cimmeri, an Indo-European tribal name whose root can be found in the Latvian word for Northerners, Ziemeli. She points to parallels in pottery design and burial customs from the Baltic, Boian, Dnieper, Sumerian, and Pre-dynastic Nile cultures as proof of the link.
The location of these migrating Baltic cultures coincides almost directly with the regions of the greatest impact of the Black Sea Flood. Because of its superb black soil, this was a natural region for the possible origin, development and spread of field agriculture (not just the gathering of grasses).
Indeed, there is evidence starting around 6500 BCE that they experimented with domestication of large animals (cattle and sheep) and with the systematic planting of wild wheat, Aegilops cylindrica, perhaps the original form of wheat. This is the only known place of such experimentation.
The first villages of this culture were initially on postglacial river terraces. The villages moved to higher ground when the Black Sea Flood came. The wood and mud houses were originally sunk into the earth but later were built above ground using stone - a cultural sign that their land was taken over by another people and that they themselves had moved.
The Great Flood in 5600 BCE forced these peoples to move out of the flooded fertile plain of the Black Sea region into other areas. Their land had been flooded - especially the shallow "shelf" on the side of the Black Sea - and their former freshwater had become salty and was no longer suitable for irrigation. Hence, field agriculture and irrigation migrated up the river valleys in Western Europe, the Transcaucasus and into Mesopotamia at this period of time.
According to Geoffrey Keating's History of Ireland, Lochlann (the Gaelic name for the empire of Atlantis) lay somewhere in the vicinity of Scandinavia. Earlier works, such as the 14th century collection of ecclesiastic writings known as the Leabhar Breac, identified it as a vast territory extending across the northern edge of the known world from the Orkney Islands to Gothia (Poland/Ukraine), Dacia (Romania), the Maeotic Marsh (Sea of Azov) and the Rhipaean Mountains (Urals/Altai). Lochlann's southern-most area, including the Sea of Azov, was Urheimat, but its point of origin was Scandinavia.
In Omero nel Baltico (Homer in the Baltic), Felice Vinci says, "In conclusion, from this review of the Baltic world, we find its astonishing consistency with the Catalogue of Ships as well as the entire Greek mythology (Tab. 1). It is very unlikely that this immense set of geographical, climatic, toponymical and morphological parallels is to be ascribed to mere chance, apart from considering the glaring contradictions arising in the Mediterranean setting.
"Therefore, here is the "secret" which has been hidden inside Homer's poems up to now and explains all oddities of Homeric geography: the Trojan War and other events handed down by Greek mythology were not set in the Mediterranean, but in the Baltic area, i.e. the primitive home of the blond "long-haired" Achaeans. On this subject, the distinguished Swedish scholar, Professor Martin P. Nilsson, in his works (Homer and Mycenae and The Minoan-Mycenaean Religion and its Survival in Greek Religion) reports a series of pieces of archaeological evidence uncovered in the Mycenaean sites in Greece, supporting the fact that the Achaean population came from the North. Some examples are: the existence of a large quantity of Baltic amber in the most ancient Mycenaean tombs in Greece (which is not to be ascribed to trade, because the amber is very scarce in later graves as well as in the coeval Minoan tombs in Crete); the typically Nordic features of their architecture (the Mycenaean megaron "is identical to the hall of the ancient Scandinavian Kings"); the "striking similarity" of two stone slabs found in a tomb in Dendra "with the menhirs known from the Bronze Age of Central Europe"; the Nordic-type skulls found in the necropolis of Kalkani, etc. A remarkable affinity between Aegean art and some Scandinavian remains dating back to the Bronze Age has also been noted, with particular regard to the figures engraved on Kivik's tomb in Sweden, to the point that a scholar in the nineteenth century suggested that this monument was built by the Phoenicians!"
-------------------- To those who understand, no explanation is necessary; to those who do not, no explanation is possible Posts: 661 | From: East Texas | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Atlantis can't be everywhere and as far as I'm concerned it still hasn't been found. I don't think Plato had any difficulty saying exactly what he meant. Interesting, yeah sure.
But I tend to be put off by links to "Extraterrestrial Ancestors", even though I believe in aliens. If anything, we are the extraterrestrials; the microscopic organisms that created life on our planet came from or formed from debris in space. It's a cop-out to the human species to think we couldn't be intelligent enough to build extravagent cities in our pre-recorded history. The human race has evolved to civilization and civilization has been destroyed by nature on many ocassions. I don't think we'll ever figure out how many times we have grown only to destroy ourselves nor how many times it will happen in the future of the human species. I also don't believe it took homosapiens as long to reach a higher degree of intelligence as scientists suggest. Just my opinion.
posted
I'm not sure what the "extraterrestrial Ancestor" reference is for, Lynn. Nothing here suggests extraterrestrials, unless you think the Indo-Europeans were from another planet?
Briwnys
-------------------- To those who understand, no explanation is necessary; to those who do not, no explanation is possible Posts: 661 | From: East Texas | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
If you look on the right side of the first link provided, Atlantis-Today, there is a links section. That is where I found "ET ancestors" references. It seems to me they are suggesting Aliens are our ancestors. The links include: First Contact, Xoah & Tua, The Xylanthians, and Sirius Star System. The "First Contact" link says: The legends and myths of extraterrestrial visitors have been recorded in religions, artwork, literature, and philosophies since the early beginning of history. The Judo-Christian History refers to these visitors from another world as Nephilim, Cherubim, Seraphim, and angels. The Sumerians called them Igigi, the ancient Mali called them Nommo, the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Asians and other cultures named them gods and goddesses. We call these loving, playful, benevolent ancestors, Xylanthians, from the planet Xylanthia. The next link: Xoah, an adventurous scientist on the Planet Xylanthia, heard the call of Tua, reaching out across eight light years of space. The irresistible Power of Love placed them together to begin a new species and create the Great Empire of ATLANTIS. The boundless power of Love transcended the barriers between their vastly different cultures; the Xylanthian culture of profound equality, and the violent survival culture of the Neanderthal.
"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days...the sons of god looked upon the daughters of Earth, found them to be fair, and took them to wife."
Gen. 6:4
This to me indicates that they propose we came from ET! It might benefit you to review their website if you don't think I'm correct. I could quote a million references to aliens in the Bible. God came down from heaven in a fiery chariot, etc. It doesn't mean God is an alien!
If I may interject: RE: "the typically Nordic features of their architecture (the Mycenaean megaron "is identical to the hall of the ancient Scandinavian Kings")"
Every ancient STONE building/temple etc. in the Mediterranean, Middle Eastern, No. African area, which is similar in outline and definition to the Parthenon, is the exact conformity of a northern WOODEN structure. Boreas has pointed this out previously here. Still today you can find this classic dimension in antique structures in Scandinavia. Why was this shape chosen to build from STONE many thousands of years ago? It must have been a PREVIOUSLY important temple design....
-------------------- "Illigitimi non carborundum!" All knowledge is to be used in the manner that will give help and assistance to others, and the desire is that the laws of the Creator be manifested in the physical world. E.Cayce 254-17 Posts: 3131 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
Yes, I did see that link but ignored it, because, like you, I don't see it as relevant here. We also have threads on this forum discussing aliens but that isn't relevant to some of the discussions here either. I suppose it is offered because this is a place for all sorts of speculative theories. The data and arguments Eaglewind has presented are sound. They are based on science and are merely speculative in their conclusions but still grounded on earth, and though I disagree with those conclusions, I respect the processes and do not see any reason to object to Eaglewind's theory on the grounds that "extraterrestrial intervention" is also touted on the same site. If this were so, I would have to apply the same logic to Atlantis Rising.
Briwnys
-------------------- To those who understand, no explanation is necessary; to those who do not, no explanation is possible Posts: 661 | From: East Texas | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
According to Geoffrey Keating's History of Ireland, Lochlann (the Gaelic name for the empire of Atlantis) lay somewhere in the vicinity of Scandinavia.
Just a minor point, but Lochlann is the gaelic name for Scandinavia - nothing whatsoever to do with Atlantis.
-------------------- Andy
Just because you believe it to be true, doesn't actually make it true... Posts: 394 | From: Evesham, Worcs, England | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged |
I am in agreement with Briwnys, please view our science-fiction dramatization as artistic philosophical impressions, which are not relative to our current discussions.
The purpose of this thread is to compare the (strikingly similar) evidence supporting the sudden creation of the Sea of Azov with the description of the sudden disappearance of the fertile plain of Atlantis; and investigate any evidence that might relate to locating Atlantis in Azov.
The direction and timing of the Black Sea flood is of prime importance to our discussion. The questions are still wide open to debate, as we have just discussed. What happened in 9,600 BC is primary to our discussion. The 5,600 BC opening of the Bosporus is interesting because, despite many expeditions, no evidence of submerged settlements in the Black Sea, prior to 5,600 BC, has been found. If anyone has new evidence, please post.
The Dialogues report that prior to 9,600 BC, the physical beauty and honorable spirits of the pre-war Athenians, were already famous throughout Europe and Asia. This intimates that the ancient super-hiway of communication between Finland, the Baltic and Azov had been established for many millennia prior to the Bronze Age migrations.
Live In Harmony. Enjoy Life! EagleWind
Posts: 119 | From: Maui, Hawaii | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
Lochlann was the name given to both the Celtic Otherworld and to the historical homeland of early Viking raiders. There is no linguistic prototype of Lochlann in the Norse sources, indicating that both usages shared a common Gaelic origin. The earlier usage, an underwater Otherworld in which sovereignty was contested against with supernatural enemies in the far north, was brought horribly to life by the sudden emergence of Viking raiders from that quarter. In other words, the usage of the Otherworld Lochlann was expanded to include the Vikings, not originally derived from them.
If you suppose the many legends of sunken lands and cities along the Celtic Shelf refer to Atlantis, as I do, then Lochlann would be the Gaelic name for Atlantis.
-------------------- To those who understand, no explanation is necessary; to those who do not, no explanation is possible Posts: 661 | From: East Texas | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
Thanks, I really appreciate your comments and warm communications. In reply to your proposal that:
quote: Your date of 8000 BCE for the beginning of Egyptian civilization is too old. Civilization did not come to the Middle East until after 5600 BCE, when the Ubaidians first set up a collection of farming villages in the area we call Sumner.
I present the possibility that the Dialogue’s date of 8,600 BC has supportive evidence. If we consider that the boundaries of the ancient Egyptian empire likely would have varied during thousands of years. We propose, as we discussed with Jaime, that the Natufian culture was comprised of the survivors from the Atlantean province of Egypt, located in Colchis.
quote: “Pinpointing the absolute beginnings of agriculture is problematic because the transition away from purely hunter-gatherer societies, in some areas, began many thousands of years before the invention of writing. Nonetheless, Archaeobotanists/Paleoethnobotanists have traced the selection and cultivation of specific food plant characteristics, such as a semi-tough rachis and larger seeds, to just after the Younger Dryas (about 9,500 BC) in the early Holocene in the Levant region of the Fertile Crescent. Limited anthropological and archaeological evidence both indicate a grain-grinding culture farming along the Nile in the 10th millennium BC using the world's earliest known type of sickle blades. “ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture#History
posted
Colchis is an excellent starting point, Eaglewind. However, its location between the Black Sea and the Caspian places it in the area generally believed to be the Indo-European homeland, Urheimat. The Natufians could have been part of the diaspora from Colchis and could have been a forerunner of Egyptian civilization. The pit houses described in the article sound very similar to the pre-flood wood and mud houses of the Dnieper Donets Culture. But...
The Natufian culture harvested natural stands of grain around 11,000 years ago. Both nomadic and sedentary foragers are known to have used fire to increase the growth of food-producing plants and grazing areas attractive to game. This kind of activity has been called “protoagriculture”. One theory for the spread of sedentary foragers in this area is that naturally occurring stands of grain were less productive in the smaller valleys in the hills adjacent to the prime gathering regions of the Natufian peoples so when the nomads in these neighboring regions tried to emulate the sedentary life-style of the Natufians, they found that these less abundant natural stands were quickly eaten up, and they experimented with planting the seeds that they had gathered in order to increase the productivity of their lands. The proto-horticulture of the diversified foragers may have morphed into true horticulture in the hands of the adjacent neighbors of the original sedentary foragers, but the full exploitation of a revolutionary new subsistence system like agriculture requires the evolution of domesticated strains of many plants and animals.
The Natufians, like most protoagricultural societies, domesticated only a handful of the wild plants that they formerly collected, and of this handful even fewer were widely adopted outside their culture. This indicates they were not working from an older, more extensive knowledge base which a more advanced culture would necessarily provide.
The question of when true agriculture actually began is complicated. For instance, the mutation responsible for fair skin became dominant in the Baltic around 18,000 BCE. This is a mutation which suppresses melanin production and is generally believed to have developed after the introduction of agriculture. The theory is that people with pale skin were better able to live off a reduced intake of animal fat in the far north because their skins were so unprotected that even the weak sunlight there could penetrate and allow them to produce the necessary vitamin D, which in turn boosted calcium absorption and prevented rickets and osteoporosis. Because a person with dark skin pigmentation needs 20 to 30 times as much exposure to ultraviolet radiation as a pale-skinned person in order to generate the same quantities of vitamin D in their bodies, this was a beneficial mutation.
This certainly did not mean that the mutation for fair skin was derived as a response to agriculture, but that, in the Baltic, the mutation was seen as beneficial and became dominant because of the change to agriculture. The results of a 2001 study, by University of Edinburgh and University of Oxford teams of geneticists led by Harding and Rees found that the redhead alleles, which are tied to fair skin color, developed about 80,000 years ago. But the genes for red or blonde hair and fair skin were not disbursed into the general population until the repeopling of glaciated Europe 15,000 to 10,000 years ago. This dispersal into the Near East, with interaction among a larger sample of protoagricultural societies with a great variety of domesticated strains among both plants and animals was probably the trigger for the full-fledged development of agriculture.
-------------------- To those who understand, no explanation is necessary; to those who do not, no explanation is possible Posts: 661 | From: East Texas | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
I think that people, such as those of Rostov-on-Donu, who were carving sewing needles, designing clothes, weaving fishing nets and building animal traps and teepees, from 30,000 BC, would have understood how to plant a delicious tomato. I think that the, now sunken, fertile farmlands to the south was Atlantis and filled with agriculture.
The empire of the fiery haired tribes, priests and priestesses of the north, in my opinion, were former Atlanteans; members of the early migrations from Atlantis, in southern Ukraine/Russia. When the greed, prejudice and subsistence of the divine portion gained the upper hand in Atlantis, a royal family or tribe of Atlantis, migrated away from Atlantis and took the original sacred laws and divine portion with them, far to the northwest, to the Celtic Shelf. This migration is similar to the migration of the tribe of their cousins, Athene and Hephaestus, who lead their band of equality-minded freedom seekers to the fertile Aegean plains.
As stated earlier, “…are many sunken cities. Not all of them can be the Atlantis fitting Plato's description.” There are many details recorded regarding the city, island and empire of Atlantis.
A vast, level, well-watered, fertile plain that suddenly sank and became a sea, sheltered from the northern blasts, surrounded by mountains, with a channel to the sea, precipitous cliffs on the side of the sea, a hill by the sea surrounded by a plain, hot and cold fountains, mines of precious metals, mines for all smelting materials and fluxes, quarries of red, white and black rock beneath the city. numerous types of wood in mountains marshes, shoals of mud, etc...
In my view the geographical similarities to Kerch and surrounding plain are overwhelming. It is a vast fertile plain that sank and became a sea, circa 9,600 BC. There is a channel to the sea, as reported by Ryan and Pitman. There are the remains of a 45 foot thick defensive wall submerged in Kerch Strait. There are remnants of a great ditch (now called furrow of Novac) running along the northern boundary of the former Azovian fertile plain. There are miles of red, white and black rock quarries beneath the city of Kerch. There are world famous hot and cold mineral springs. Tons of gold, silver and ivory treasures have been and still are being extracted from this land by archeologists and black-marketers. This ice age haven is sheltered from the north by the strongest magnetic anomaly on earth. Precipitous cliffs line the shore, which looks south.
Live in harmony. Enjoy Life! EagleWind
Posts: 119 | From: Maui, Hawaii | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
"Loch" actually assosiates to the modern English word "lock". We find the same semantic basis in the Scandinavian word "lokk" (encircled/enclosed).
(As some modern linguists now consider Scandinavian to be the oldest of the IE languages we may find valuable roots of these words there - still to day.)
A bay can be seen as a "lock", compared to the open ocean sea. Lock Garman in Ireland as Loch Linne and Bal-lock in Scotland are immediate examples, while Loksland can still be found at the mount of Frohisher Bay in Cananda.
Large sweet-waters may be lochs as well. Loch Ness would mean "Sea + Penninsula". Is there a large penninsula in side the famous Scottish loch?!
The spelling "Lann" gives the English tongue a chance to pronounce the root-word "land" just the way it is still pronounced in the Norse/Scandinavian/Root toungue.
Thus we may understand that the old Scotts and Britts described Scandinavia as the land that locks the ocean from the "ocean-bay" generally known as the Baltic Sea.
"Loch-lann" would then be the land that locks up the Baltic Ocean Sea, implying the entire Fenno-Scandia as well as the Baltic states and coasts of northern Poland/Germany - and not only the rim part of Scandinavia facing Scotland, i.e. todays Norway.
That would definitly check with the claims of the Baltic area being the mainland of the proto-culture of the eastern Atlantic. Today we have several sources that points to this Atlantean proto-culture to be a real and historical origin of the legendary Atlantis...
"As to the Tuatha Dé Dananns, when they saw the Athenians thus vanquished, they all fled out of the country, through fear of those invaders. And they stopped not until they reached the regions of Lochlann, where they were welcomed by the inhabitants on account of their many sciences and arts... When they had remained a long time in these cities, they passed over to the north of Alba, where they continued seven years in Dobar and Iardobar."
The Tuatha Dé Danann arrived in Ireland “In this wise they came, in dark clouds from northern islands of the world. They landed on the mountains of Conmaicne Rein in Connachta, and they brought a darkness over the sun for three days and three nights. Gods were their men of arts, and non-gods their husbandmen."
The Dananns were “the most handsome and desired company, the fairest of form, the most distinguished in weaponry and apparel, skilled in music and sports, the most gifted in intellect and temperament that ever came to Ireland – that tribe was the bravest of all and inspired fear and dread in their enemies, for the Tuatha Dé Danann excelled all the races in the world in their proficiency in every art.”
In The Book of the Dun Cow and The Book of Leinster, the Tuatha Dé Danann are also described as "gods and not gods", meaning that they were something in between. The Book of the Dun Cow also says, "it seems likely that the Tuatha Dé Danann came from heaven, on account of their intelligence and the excellence of their knowledge".
The kings of Leinster trace their descent back to Óengus Og, the god of lightning, and the maker of the Spear of Lugh. Another name the Laigin give their progenitor is Eochaid Ollathair. In the Laigin King’s List, this is the name of the Dagda. Eochaid Ollathair is the lord of the Otherworld, and the ancestor (or maker) of mankind. These were the ancestral gods of the Laigin tribe of that section of Ireland called Leinster.
Among the Laigin were tribes named the Luighne (Race of Lugh, part of the Cianacht, "Family of Cian"), the Dealbhne, the "Shining Race", which was split between the septs of Nuadat (Nuada) and Eathra (the Mariner, probably Manannan), and the Saithne (the Seventh Race).
The ten high kings of the Tuatha Dé Danann were:
Nuada Airgetlam, son of Echtach (or Eochaidh), son of Edarlamh, ruled for seven years until he lost his hand at the battle of Magh Tuireadh. . Tailltiu daughter of Mag Mor king of Spain, queen of the Fir Bolg, came after the slaughter was inflicted upon the Fir Bolg in that first battle of Mag Tuired to Coill Cuan, and the wood was cut down by her, so it was a plain under clover-flower before the end of a year. This is that Tailtiu who was wife of Eochu, son of Erc, king of Ireland till the Tuatha De Danann slew him. He it was who took her from her father, from Spain; and it is she who slept with Eochu Garb son of Dui Dall of the Tuatha De Danann. Cian son of Dian Cecht, whose other name was Scal Balb, gave her his son in fosterage, namely Lugh, whose mother was Eithne daughter of Balor. So Tailltiu died in Tailltean, and her name clave thereto and her grave is from the Seat of Tailltiu northeastward. Her games were performed every year and her song of lamentation, by Lugh. With geasa and feats of arms were they performed, a fortnight before Lughnasad and a fortnight after: under dicitur Lughnasad, that is, the celebration or the festival of Lugh. .
Bres, son of Elatha Mac Delbaith, ruled over Ireland for seven years; for the Tuatha Dé Danann gave him the sovereignty, after gaining the battle of Magh Tuireadh Conga, while the hand of Nuadhat was under cure. He resigned the kingdom to Nuadhat, after the cure of his hand by Diancecht, assisted by Creidne, the artificer, for they put a silver hand upon him. .
Nuada Airgetlam, son of Echtach, regained the High Kingship after his hand had been welded with a piece of refined silver. He ruled for twenty years until he fell at the battle of Magh Tuireadh na bhFomorach, slain by Balor of the mighty blows, one of the Fomorians. . Nuada Airgetlam fell in the last battle of Mag Tuireadh, and Macha, daughter of Ernmas, at the hands of Balor the strong-smiter. In that battle there fell Ogma, son of Elada, at the hands of Indech, son of the De Domnann, king of the Fomoire. Bruidne and Casmael fell at the hands of Ochtriallach, son of Indech. After the death of Nuada and of those men, Lugh took the kingship of Ireland, and his grandfather Balor the Strong-smiter fell at his hands, with a stone from his sling. Lugh was forty years in the kingship of Ireland after the last battle of Mag Tuireadh, and there were twenty-seven years between the battles. .
Lugh Lamfada, Lewy of the Long Hand, son of Cian, ruled for forty years. It was in the reign of Lugh that the fair of Tailltean was established, in commemoration and remembrance of his foster mother, Tailltiu, the daughter of Magh Mor, King of Spain, and the wife of Eochaidh, son of Erc, the last king of the Firbolgs. Lugh was slain at Caendruim by Mac Cuill, son of Cermait. .
The Dagda, son of Elada, ruled for eighty years as Eochaid Ollathair. He died at Brugh, of the venom of the wound that Cethlenn inflicted upon him in the first battle of Magh Tuireadh. .
Delbaeth, son of Ogma, ruled for ten years and fell by the hand of his own son, Fiacha Mac Delbaeth. .
Fiachna, son of Delbaeth, ruled for ten years and fell by the hand of Eogon of Inbher. .
Mac Cuill,
Mac Cecht, and
Mac Greine, the sons of Cermait or Ogma, were in joint sovereignty over the land for twenty-nine years before the coming of the Milesians. At this time, the fleet of the sons of Milidh came to Ireland to take it from the Tuatha Dé Dananns; and they fought the battle of Sliabh Mis with them on the third day after landing. In this battle fell Scota, the daughter of Pharaoh, wife of Milidh; and the grave of Scota is to be seen between Sliabh Mis and the sea. Therein also fell Fas, the wife of Un, son of Uige, from whom is named Gleann Faisi.
After this the sons of Milidh fought a battle at Tailtinn against the three kings of the Tuatha Dé Dananns, Mac Cuill, Mac Ceacht, and Mac Greine. The battle lasted for a long time, until Mac Ceacht fell by Eiremhon, Mac Cuill by Eimhear, and Mac Greine by Amhergin. Their three queens were also slain; Eire by Suirghe, Fodhla by Edan, and Banba by Caicher. The battle was at length gained against the Tuatha Dé Dananns, and they were slaughtered wherever they were overtaken.
Briwnys
-------------------- To those who understand, no explanation is necessary; to those who do not, no explanation is possible Posts: 661 | From: East Texas | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
Laig+in = law / layer / team(:rule) + one ("the").
---
Eaglewind,
In an earlier posting I stressed the importance of senòr Kon-Tiki, Dr. Thor Heyerdahl, who spent his last ten years looking for the origin of the Norse "Gods", called Aser - in the old city of Azov.
Heyerdahl had found that these "Gods" actually did exist - as normal human beings, although exceptionally advanced in their time and age. According to the Royal Sagas of Iceland they were the ancestors to the cultural societies of Old Europe. Thus they had become euphermized, as real ancestoral heros became "heavenly gods". In the early autumm of 2001 Time Magazine spent their frontpage presenting Heyerdahls Azov-project with the headline; "In Search of The Gods"
According to Heyerdahl the very name "Azov" or "Asov" came from two well-known, Scandinavian words;
posted
On this Thanksgiving weekend, I would like to express my gratitude for the wealth of knowledge and stimulating conversations that fill the pages of the AR forum.
Aloha Briwnys,
Thanks for your information. It is my understanding that the priests and shamans of Danu are thought to have migrated from the north, about 3,000 to 4,000 BC. I suggest that these tribes of the north wind originated in Azovian Atlantis from very early migrations, +30,000 BC, weather permitting. These tribes, living in relative isolation maintained their knowledge, culture and unique gene structures.
Another wave of migrations occurred after the ice melt of 20,000 BC. The great migrations occurred after the massive flooding at the end of the Younger Dryas, and the sinking of Atlantis in 9,600 BC.
“Based on the evidence of place-names, such as the river Danube (Latin: Danuvius), Dniestr, Dniepr and Don, she (Danu) may have been worshipped throughout the Celtic world. Indeed, the presence of a goddess named Danu in Hindu mythology, associated with water and mother of a race of Asuras called the Danavas, may indicate a very ancient Proto-Indo-European origin for this figure.” (Wikipedia, Danu) Ukraine is often referred to as the cradle of civilization.
It seems reasonable that the now sunken fertile plain, in southern Ukraine, would be a far more fair and abundant agricultural area when compared to the Celtic shelf during the ice age.
Aloha Boreasi
It is very good to hear from you. It is my understanding that the wandering Odin, migrated from Azov about 2,000 BC?
The route between Azov and Norse land is a well worn trek, but where is the place of origin?
I propose that Atlantis, as recorded in Plato's writings sank beneath the Sea of Azov , by devastating earthquakes and torrential floods, in 9,600 BC, and is the original motherland of the ancient warrior-hero-prophets in the lands of ice.
Live in harmony. Enjoy Life! EagleWind
Posts: 119 | From: Maui, Hawaii | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
The conventional understanding of Odin is rather close to the conventional understanding of Zeus, Ahura Mazda or God. When the christian Norsemen had to re-write their myths - during the 13th century - to save any of it at all - they placed Odin in Troja, which they in turn placed "south of Miklagard" (Ukraine). To prove their "common origin" and compeliation with the founders of the Greek-Roman church - who had just conqered the "indians" of Northern Europe, i.e. Finns and Scandinavians.
They simply could not keep the history of a northern origin of the Aser, whitout confronting the core of the Vatican ideology, that claimed to owe the "higher truth" and "the core of civilisation" by "the word of God".
When the Russian antropologoists came in touch with Mr. Heyerdahl they questioned that issue, asking if the Norse sagas could be elaborated on. In the Russian annals they say the same - explaining the close connections between the Finish Gulf, Asov and Astrakan. Though, the Russians own annals states that this culture - as the basis of their own etnicity and language - actually originated in the north-west...!
Consequently they initiated the Asov-project, were they actually excavated the old city of Asov (beside the present one) - proving strong connections. Later we have found new and astounding evidence in the Baltic area, telling of a regional culture much older than 10.000 year. Today we may even find that the first permanent setlments in Ucraine, Caucasia and Anatolia actually arrived - not from the "high sky" - but from the "high" north, from the "land behind the skies".
Today we may even say something about this advanced, artical or "Atlantean" culture. Thus we may see the Azov area as the first area where these ligth-skinned articals established tehir first permanent setlements outside of their own origin - i.e. Baltic area and the "Gulf of Vineland" - today called Finland.
Thus I think you are quite rigth. The Azov area was the centre of the culture that populated Eurasia after the ice-age - with strong ties to all the districts of the indigenous populations of the Mediterranean and Asia, that already defined the "kingdoms of the earth" - as Chineese, Indians, Arabians, Mediterraneans and Africans...!
Simulatainously these Arc-tic people send other envoys to the west - via the islands of the Atlantic to the continent of the west. Also there they earned a reputation as wisemen and good-doers, bringing the gifts of agriculture and arch-i-tec-tore to the indigenous people of Meso-America. Senor Heyerdahl never stopped wondering about the historical background of the Amerindian cultures he visited - which was all of them. The legend of an ancient true white brother never stopped to puzzle him, until he heard about the migations of the "Red Paint People" - that inhabited both the North Sea region and the east-coast of America, as soon as the ice-time had left the northern part of that continent.
Finally, as modern genetics confirm these prehistoric sailings - we may conclude that the ancient ancestors of the Vikings, called "Aser" - actually reached Asia, Africa and America too, already some 10.000 years ago. Not as aliens in spaceships, but as "Atlanteans" (caucasians) in sailing-ships, "flying across the waves - in feather-coated ("bird-like") ships".
Have a good and giving week-end on the blessed isles of Hawahi!
The earliest dispersal of people from the north occured around 35,000 years ago, to one of the refugia located on the Iberian Peninsula. This was the Cro-Magnon group, uniquely identified by the genetic constitution of an individual chromosome called the Atlantic Modal Haplotype, who settled on the littoral plains of the European continent during the last ice age.
These people ranged from the Iberian peninsula, where they wintered, to summer ranges in the Baltic Sea area and developed what may have been the first civilization of modern homo sapiens. A series of natural disasters, beginning around 10,600 BCE and ending 5,000 years later with the inundation of the Black Sea area, wiped out almost all knowledge of this civilization except for that passed down as myth and legend.
Through a series of forced migrations, the northern group (who, strangely enough, lived in the Summer Country) moved south. Some of them were the Brythonic people who repopulated the area along the Atlantic coast devastated by the mega-tsunami around 6,000 BCE while others, fleeing rising waters from the Baltic a millennium later, moved into the area around the Black Sea where their final dispersal initiated the beginning of the Neolithic Age and our present civilization.
This last dispersal did include priests of Danu, who was worshipped in Sumer as Inanna. They followed the river systems such as the Dnieper to an area around the Black Sea, transitioning from a subsidence farming society to a full-fledged agricultural society with the influx of knowledge from the Steppes and from other people along their migration path.
These people became the Indo-Europeans and their country, called Lochlann or Hyperborea, at one time extended across the northern edge of the known world, from the Orkney Islands to Poland, the Ukraine, Romania, the Sea of Azov and the Ural and Altai Mountains.
Briwnys
-------------------- To those who understand, no explanation is necessary; to those who do not, no explanation is possible Posts: 661 | From: East Texas | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I thought I'd post some news about a recent discovery of Stonehenge-like structures found in Lugansk, Ukraine here (as I also posted in response to a discussion in another thread), as it lends great support to EagleWind's Atlantis in Azov theory. I'd read about this find several months ago, but hadn't come across a picture until recently (in the first link):
The Ukrainian ancient pyramidal structure pre-dates those in Egypt by at least 300 years. Remains of sacrifice victims, ashes and ceramics have been found at the site, but no jewelry or treasure. The complex, which covered three-quarters of a square mile and was around 60 meters (192ft) high, was probably used for 2,000 years.
posted
Where are the mountains around the sea of Azov ??
quote:The whole country was said by him to be very lofty and precipitous on the side of the sea
quote:The surrounding mountains were celebrated for their number and size and beauty, far beyond any which still exist,
In a 500 mile radius of Atlantis in Azov, the height rarely goes above the 500 ft elevation.
-------------------- KNOW that as ye do unto the least of thy associates ye do unto the GOD within THEE that is in the image of the God without. I_AM that I_AM, and that I_AM, and that I_AM,and that I_AM, and that I_AM ! GOD is every I_AM! But every I_AM is not GOD ! Posts: 2902 | From: Nashville, TN. | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Where are the mountains around the sea of Azov ??
Perhaps IN the Sea of Azov?
-------------------- An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future. Posts: 1270 | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hello EagleWind You may have noticed that Georgeos has been pretty specific in his translations of Greek words. He's also pretty specific on the fact that Gadiera has always been where it is, and that Plato said a portion of Atlantis was named after Atlas' twin, Eumelous (sp?) and translated, that name meant Gadiera. Therefore, part of Atlantis must be attached to Spain. How do you account for this in your theory? Thank you.
-------------------- An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future. Posts: 1270 | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hello Again Another problem I'm having is figuring out this business of the "subjectivity" the Atlanteans had over other countries along the Med. I mean in relation to which direction they were going. If Atlantis was at the western end of the Med, then it would make sense that they had sway over the lands in the western Med. (Libya as far as Egypt and Europe to Tyrennia), subjugating folks, as they traveled eastward. Plato says they had done all that, and next was going to be the Egyptians and Greeks all at once:
Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.
Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars
Never mind for now the size of the place being debated as whether it was Libya and Asia put together or whatever, just about how one nation could overthrow other nations, and from which direction. If Atlantis was in the Black Sea, how does this correlate with them having sway over the western end of the Med - ie: Libya and Italy? Why would they conquer a land approximately 2500 to 3000 miles away, before they conquered their next door neighbor?
-------------------- An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future. Posts: 1270 | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
If you wish to know if really the theory of “Atlantis in Azov” is valid, you only must on approval put under it through listing of “Milos Conference”, reviewed and corrected that you can see in this Topic.
You will be able to verify like the theory of “Atlantis in Azov”, like other theories of the Mediterranean do not surpass the test of the Scientific Atlantology.
posted
Qoasis sweetheart, just continue the way you're doing your investigation and you're going to end up with MALTA. Just use common sense tha's all youre doing great!
IP: Logged |
quote:This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable;
I forget, what was the proper translation of this ??
-------------------- KNOW that as ye do unto the least of thy associates ye do unto the GOD within THEE that is in the image of the God without. I_AM that I_AM, and that I_AM, and that I_AM,and that I_AM, and that I_AM ! GOD is every I_AM! But every I_AM is not GOD ! Posts: 2902 | From: Nashville, TN. | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote: Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia.
The surrounding mountains:
The Crimean Mountians, Carpathian Mountains, northern Caucasus Mountains, Donetsk Range, Svyati Gory (Saint Mountains) and Priazovska Heights surrounded the fertile plain which is now beneath and adjacent to the Sea of Azov. Presently, run-off from the vast surrounding drainage area supply water to one of the most remarkable canals systems in the world.
Eleven thousand, six hundred years is a long time, but geologically speaking it is a very short time. I cannot support the idea that entire mountain ranges, encircling a 300 by 200 mile plain, could have disappeared beneath the sea, in 9,600 BC, without leaving obvious evidence.
posted
Thanks Eaglewind,using google earth, the area looked not very high. I find nothing under Priazovska Heights , a spelling error ??
-------------------- KNOW that as ye do unto the least of thy associates ye do unto the GOD within THEE that is in the image of the God without. I_AM that I_AM, and that I_AM, and that I_AM,and that I_AM, and that I_AM ! GOD is every I_AM! But every I_AM is not GOD ! Posts: 2902 | From: Nashville, TN. | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged |
I took the spelling of Priazovska Heights from a map of Ukraine that is not online. I have not found a map online either. Another spelling is Pryasovska.
Stone necklace of Ukraine:
quote:
“95% of Ukrainian land is formed by plains and about 5% — by mountains (Carpathian mountains in the west and Crimean mountains in the far south). Horizontal zones (belts) of Ukraine change from north to the south, from mixed forests to plains.”
“The uplands include: Peredkarpatska (650–800 m), Volynska (220–300 m, highest point — 342 m), Khotynska (350–400 m, highest point — 515 m); Pryasovska (150–300 m, highest point — 324 m) with unique natural heights — “graves”.
“Two mountain systems — Carpathians and Crimean Mountains form a stone necklace of Ukraine. Ukrainian Carpathians stretch in a line wider than 100 km and 280 km long. The highest area is Polochynsko-Chornogorskyi range (Goverla Mountain — 2061 m, Pip-Ivan Mountain — 2022 m, Petros Mountain — 2020 m). The average height of the ranges is 700–1700 m. “
quote: “Krasnodar Territory is one of the most attractive parts of Russia, with its boundless steppes and high forest-covered mountains. Russia's two southernmost seas wash the foot of the Caucasus Mountains. The mountains are the source of the many rivers that carve their paths through deep gorges and canyons.
We have the precedent that the dialogues refer to the “mountains’ of Attica as “high hills covered with soil.” Therefore mountains may not necessarily always mean high mountains.
It is true that the mountains to the north are not very high. The dialogues do not say that it is the mountains that shelter the plain from the north, the dialogues only say that the plain was sheltered, which it was. The former Azov plain was sheltered by the Great Russian plain and by the strongest magnetic anomaly on earth, located in the donbass foldbelt region.
There is Precipitous Cliffs on the side of the sea:
These forums are maintained by
Atlantis Rising as a public service. The intent is to give everyone the freedom
to express independent points of view without censure or undue restriction.
However, we ask that you act responsibly in the exercise of your freedoms.
Please keep all comments in good taste and free from insult or the disparagement
of any individual or group (religious, political, racial, ethnic, sexual preference,
etc.).
For the record, the management
of Atlantis Rising wishes to make clear that any and all statements presented
on this forum represent the views of that particular writer ONLY and should
NOT be construed to represent in any way the views, opinions or policies of
Atlantis Rising Magazine or AtlantisRising.com.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
