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Author Topic: Atlantis in Israel
Tom Hebert1
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We have all tried to tell him that, but he won't listen.
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Jaime Manuschevich
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quote:
Jamie, how did you first even get the idea that Atlantis was in Israel? You do know that Plato set it in the Atlantic, right?
quote:
We have all tried to tell him that, but he won't listen.
Of course that I have studied very in detail what Plato said. But as it is not where he said, it is clear and evident that in the saying by Plato, something is bad. That puts to us in two options: it is a fantasy of Plato or Solon bad understood what the Egyptians told him and he was mistaken of sea.

This logical conclusion has taken to that many investigators, that thinks that the myth is a real and not fantasy, has to look for it elsewhere, to discover that it quiets to say this complex myth.

[ 04-08-2006, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: Jaime Manuschevich ]

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Jaime Manuschevich

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nekozuki
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Jaime, obviously you're coming to the conclusion that the Egyptians and Greeks were stupid and didn't know their way around. They clearly told Solon the Atlantic Ocean, there is no other way around it. People come up with ridiculous theories like Israel and Morocco because it doesn't go along with what science has SO FAR found. If you've been to the very bottom of the Atlantic Ocean Jaime and have found nothing please tell me because that must have been quite an adventure, sonar mapping of the Atlantic doesn't mean anything. Seeing a map of something and actually being there are two completely different things. Pilots flying over the Bahamas or near the middle of the Atlantic report seeing things in the water that shouldn't be there.


The Egyptians and Greeks were not stupid and recent archaeological findings are proving that. They built steam engines and might even have had electricity with the discovery of the Dendera lamp, so they could do all that and not know their geography you have some serious explaining to do Jaime.

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" Om Vasudevaya Namaha!"
With loving reverence, I bow to Lord Vishnu!

"Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is." - Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita

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Jaime Manuschevich
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quote:
Not necessarily. Vishnu comes when humans are in trouble or corrupt so it goes either way, but looking at the Book of Enoch it says the flood was used to wipe away the bloodthristy giants that were a result of angels and human women breeding. A little odd. But hey with all these stories we do know some kind of flood happened, the question is was it worldwide? Probably not.
The subject is very complex because there is to separate the real facts of legend and myths. Here I do super summary compressed of the subject.

All the old Gods are planets, because this anthropological construction was derived from the studies of the sky that made the first civilization, Atlantis. The conclusion of this first civilization was that the precession of the equinoxes and the position of planets controlled the Earth climate, and with her the life of the men (circa 8000 BC).

When this civilization fell (circa 5600 BC), all the civilizations that emerged from a colonizing process, which they extend from America to India, transformed these scientific knowledge into religion. The three great Chalcolitic or Neolithic nations that comprised of this old civilization developed to religions based on this world or universe perception : Indo-European, (Iafet) Semitic (Sem) and Nubios (Kem).

Soon, when the Semites colonized America, (5,000 BC), this vision of Gods and religion extended to America. In India, the double presence, first Semites and Indo-European later, superposed the visions of both nations, mixing them in addition with the historical events to the Indo-European conquest.

The natural vision of punishment by effect of the deluge or disasters that the climatic changes generate - that included volcanic eruptions, the mythical giants- were associated these Gods, that initially were planets and stars. All these derived religions tried to establish a cause effect between conduct and punishment.

It is highly probable that after the disaster a single story of facts existed, but that it went away diversifying and went away transforming into religion - Popul Vu, Ramayana, Bible, battles of Zeus- that count the facts of bottom of similar form, but also different in specific aspects.

When men through to arrive at sky with the towers Babel, they were again punished, event which it is associate to the colonization and extension by the Earth of this first culture, that surely installed observatories from Peru to India, with Egypt like centre.

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Jaime Manuschevich

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nekozuki
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Actually Jaime in Hinduism there is a residing deity of every planet out there, the planet itself is alive but not a god. There is just one living there. Vishnu himself was never associated with a planet, he is the second person of the trinity, the preserver of the universe. That's why he came in the form of a fish to warn Manu about the flood, so mankind can continue. This whole universe will collapse one day but Vishnu is supposed to keep it from happening prematurely. That is what's behind India's flood story. Not that they were being punished necessarily, but it's a natural occurence and Vishnu had to warn Manu to get to safety along with some other people so they could repopulate the Earth. And therefore peace is maintained........for a while at least.

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" Om Vasudevaya Namaha!"
With loving reverence, I bow to Lord Vishnu!

"Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is." - Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita

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Jaime Manuschevich
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quote:
Originally posted by nekozuki:
Jaime, obviously you're coming to the conclusion that the Egyptians and Greeks were stupid and didn't know their way around. (...)
The Egyptians and Greeks were not stupid and recent archaeological findings are proving that. They built steam engines and might even have had electricity with the discovery of the Dendera lamp, so they could do all that and not know their geography you have some serious explaining to do Jaime.

Not to know something does not mean to be stupid, but 99.99% of the humanity we would be it. Not to know something he is only that, not to know. In order to know something complex, like the theory of the relativity or the precession of the equinoxes, a stable and prolonged cultural evolution is needed, that allows to conserve and to develop the knowledge.

The destruction of Rome and the Middle Age eliminated a high percentage of the knowledge of the old world. Also the destruction of the Library of Alexandria was a tremendous disaster for the knowledge. And that has spent several times. The point arc was known in Babylonia does 6 thousand years. They also constructed buildings of 10 floors. That information soon lost and was recovered 4 thousand years later by the Romans. The Romans knew dome, but he was also lost by 1400 years, recovering in the beginning to Modern Age. Also there was a machine to steam at the Roman time, etc. That there is much lost information. Without going very far, still we do not know how the pyramids of Egypt were constructed, and just are learning to understand whichever knowledge lock up and so that they served.

In that sense, Greek and the Egyptians are not the same one. The Greeks towards the 600 BC, came just stabilizing their society after almost 800 years of constant invasions (Aquaean, Dorian). They were not indeed a consolidated old society, witch had great scientific and geographic knowledge. The Egyptians, the inverse one, knew history the way humanity much more completes, but the near one, the Middle East, because they were not great travellers.

What I indicate, studying texts of Plato, and real history, is that the Egyptians told something him to the Greeks that they did not understand exactly on the origin and evolution of the civilization, in a story perhaps very similar to the Genesis, and much more perhaps detailed. In the story of Atlantis it appears Deucalion, Greek Noah.

Soon they, modified and to transform it into the epic of Atlantis, as they same say it. We do not have to forget that Atlantis is a myth, not a scientific fact meticulously studied and written. It is a story of a story of a story. It was related of the Egyptians to Solon, of Solon to Dropides, Dropides to Critias and Critias to Plato. It is very far from being a story of first source.

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Jaime Manuschevich

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nekozuki
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Exactly, the Library of Alexandria was destroyed therefore leading to a debate of actual history. Archaeology just skims the surface. When something is written than it can tell a lot. If the Library of Alexandria wasn't destroyed would we be having this debate?

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" Om Vasudevaya Namaha!"
With loving reverence, I bow to Lord Vishnu!

"Man is made by his belief. As he believes, so he is." - Lord Krishna, Bhagavad Gita

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Jaime Manuschevich
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quote:
Originally posted by nekozuki:
Actually Jaime in Hinduism there is a residing deity of every planet out there, the planet itself is alive but not a god. There is just one living there. Vishnu himself was never associated with a planet, he is the second person of the trinity, the preserver of the universe. That's why he came in the form of a fish to warn Manu about the flood, so mankind can continue. This whole universe will collapse one day but Vishnu is supposed to keep it from happening prematurely. That is what's behind India's flood story. Not that they were being punished necessarily, but it's a natural occurence and Vishnu had to warn Manu to get to safety along with some other people so they could repopulate the Earth. And therefore peace is maintained........for a while at least.

But, as it is clear in this same commentary, a great relation between the universe, astronomy and the global Earth climate, is established.

For me, the religion as individual belief is a personal problem. But the religion like global phenomenon, is an anthropological subject must be studied to understand its essence, nonreligious, but sociological.

In order to understand the world and the past, it is necessary to understand that it generated this belief and not another one.

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Jaime Manuschevich

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Jaime Manuschevich
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quote:
Originally posted by nekozuki:
Exactly, the Library of Alexandria was destroyed therefore leading to a debate of actual history. Archaeology just skims the surface. When something is written than it can tell a lot. If the Library of Alexandria wasn't destroyed would we be having this debate?

It is highly probable that not... But the fact happened and we must to unravel the tangle.

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Jaime Manuschevich

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Jaime Manuschevich
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The Egyptian did not speak of the present Atlantic Ocean

The platonic text is clear: for Egyptian the Atlantic sea was a no navigable sea, small and flooded, full of mud. They does not say that a part of him was no navigable and full of mud. They does not say either that this happened only by a period of time. They does not say either that he was small in a portion. They does not say either that there were seaweed, as several investigators tell. It is clear that the present Atlantic Ocean is the gigantic ocean that does not have any of those characteristics. It is not the same sea. To maintain that it is the same sea is to be simply blinder. In general, nobody confuses a dwarf with a giant.

The other clear thing that I maintain is that although the Egyptian could know that sea or the this ocean, it not exist any document that it proves that they called "the Atlantic Ocean" or that they knew its real characteristics, subject that is very relevant, because It is a test of himself speak of that sea or no.

Atlantis is not America

Now, to tell that the Egyptians knew America indeed, and that they talked about to that continent like the located territory to the front of Atlantis, only there are conjectures. There are not evidences.

I do not deny that the Canaanites or the Phoenicians or the Carthaginians knew that continent. On the contrary. I say that they yes knew it and that his ancestors, the Atlantean, colonized the continent. Soon, they dealt with those new peoples, extracted copper, iron, tobacco, cocaine and perhaps many other products. But they never opened his secret. Either there is no test that another old western culture knew such secret. Without a doubt, there are rumours and commentaries on the Island of the Iron (present Brazil) or Hasperides Island, (Western Islands)... or about the route to them through Cabo Verde (Green Cape??) Island or Gorgadas Islands.

This starting point for the passage is not irrelevant, because it is the shorter nautical route between Africa and America, 800 leagues. Also from sea currents and winds are generated there that shorten the trip almost to half.

Columbus exactly crossed all the islands of the Eastern Atlantic looking for these islands to use this route. It finally discovered only the return way, with favourable tides and winds that the return way shortened to him to Europe. Also there is story mythical of this trip, like the one of Gilgamesh, who apparently travelled until The Andes in America. That old connection was, for millennia and until now, only in the scope of stories and legend. In any case, like data, I add this:
quote:
GARDEN OF the HESPÉRIDES
The Hesperides Islands are called thus by the city of Hesperide, that was in the borders of Mauritania. They are beyond the Gorgadas, in the limit of the Atlantic, towards where the marine abysses begin. In its gardens - according to they count the legend was a dragoon that watched gold apples. One says that there a so rough estuary by his trimmed borders is originated of the sea that who contemplate it from distant spot create to see the spirals of a serpent.

S. Isidoro of Sevilla, Etimologías, XIV, 6, 10

There are many tales o legend about this connection. A fragmentary work of Theophrastus of Lesbos tells about the colonies of Atlantis in the sea. Hesiod wrote that the garden of the Hesperides was on an island in the sea where the sun sets. Pliny the Elder recorded that this land was 12,000 km distant (by modern measurment) from Cádiz, and Uba, a Numidian talks of an enormous island outside the Pillars of Hercules. He describes it as having a climate that is very mild; fruits and vegetables grow ripe throughout the year. There are huge mountains covered with large forests, and wide, irrigable plains with navigable rivers. Scylax of Caryanda gives similar account.

There is not a island sunk in the Atlantic

Now, about the existence of a island of 300 by 600 kilometres in the centre of the Atlantic that underwent a collapse geologic, sink at heart of the ocean, between 9,500 BC and the 600 BC, nobody have a test. There are only small findings that not have scientific recognition and which have to much of speculation.

This, for me is clear and evident yet that Plato was mistaken, who he interpreted bad to the Egyptians or Solon, and that Atlantis never was in the present Atlantic Ocean. I also conclude, who any rational and dispassionate analysis, based on the multiple already existing solid evidences, will conclude the same. This solid conclusion has already taken to many investigators to look for Atlantis in the Mediterranean and other places.

Now, if the analysis does not surpass the most basic test, it makes no sense to continue looking for in the Atlantic the other characteristics of the mythical island: bulls, elephants, channels, marine civilization, ring, etc.

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Jaime Manuschevich

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Jaime Manuschevich
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About Okeano an Atlantic Ocena

Whatever it has studied Greek mythology, it knows that the Greeks denominated titans to the seas and titanides to the great lakes, that were children of Gea (the Earth) and Uranus (the Sky). The seas were the Ocean, Ceo, Cryo, Hyperion, and Chronos. Titanides was Temis, Rhea, Tetis, Tea, Mnemosine and Febe. These seas and lakes were specific places, and according to the map of Anaximando, the titan Ocean is the sea that surrounded all well-known Earth. That is to say, the present Atlantic was part of Okeano. This also gives a perception us of the world known by them. Homero also considered that the Ocean was the sea that surrounded the world.

Also the version of the pelasgos, old inhabitants of Greece exists, previous to Indo-European, that they present a creative goddess, the Eurinome, seemed to Yavhe, that it separated the Earth of the Sky. After the creation, she created 7 planetary powers, (like the seven days of the week of the Hebrew version) represented by seven (again the 7) even ones of a titan and one titanide: Tia and Hyperion for the Sun; Febe and Atlantes for the Moon; Dionne and Cryo for Mars; Metis and Geo for Mercury; Temis and Euromidontes for Jupiter; Tetis and the Ocean for Venus; Rea and Cronos for Saturn. All them were the guardians of the time.

Now, in real terms, and like all mythology in general, these stories you tell several things us. First, the process of compression of the man the universe that surrounds to us. Second, the process of organization of the time through the knowledge of the movements of the sky and the stars and planets: Third, the disorder of climatic phenomena (giant, Cyclopes, the hecatonquiros) There emphasize it battles of Zeus against titans (seas); giant (volcanoes) and Typhoon (great storms), among others. In fourth place, the process of expansion of the civilization. (Uranus and soon Prometheus)

The narrow concept in the Greeks

This is narrow for the Greeks of Plato`s time: At the time of Leónidas I (480 BC) the passage of Thermopilae (Θερμοπύλαι Termophilai) was a close way (probably of about 13 meters wide) under the cliff. At the modern time the deposits of the Esperqueo river have extended it until a width to about 1.5 kilometres. Not 10 times this measurement (today), like is the Straits of Gibraltar, that has 14 kilometres in its narrower part.

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Jaime Manuschevich

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Jaime Manuschevich
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quote:
Originally posted by Rich:
Jaime,
Nothing wrong with having controversial opinions. The israel/lebanon area is interesting because of an old history, and a location in between Greece and Egypt. A diversity of opinion is a good thing.

I personally don't like Israel or the timeframe, but that timeframe has been chosen by others before. Usually 5600BC is chosen because of the Black Sea flood. Would Israel know about the Black Sea flooding?

This disaster established by Ryan and Pitman affected all the region. In fact cuts in the human settlements were detected during that period. Also Hawkes established that after that date the migrations began by the coasts of the Mediterranean Sea. Also, the construction of megalithic began. Also after that date the new civilizations in Egypt begin, with the colonization of the delta of Nile including, Mesopotamia, Greece, Spain, India. Also the migrations of the peoples began that lived around the Black Sea towards the north of Europe by the great rivers of the centre of Europe.

That is to say, this event caused an enormous convulsion in the Eastern region of the Mediterranean that caused a tremendous cultural change in all the Mediterranean zone and the Middle East.

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Jaime Manuschevich

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EagleWind
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quote:
"This disaster established by Ryan and Pitman affected all the region."
Noah’s Flood theory is not established. There is a growing amount of evidence that contradicts Ryan and Pitman’s theory.

A presentation called, “High resolution records show continuous sedimentation at 69 m water depth on SW Black Sea Shelf disprove major Holocene flooding for the past 9.3 ka” (R.N. Hiscott, A.E. Aksu, K. Adetona, P.J. MudieD. M.A. Kaminski, J.M. Evans, T. Abrajano, D. Yaşar and F. Marrett, 2005), was presented at the “Black Sea-Mediterranean Corridor during last 30 ky: Sea level change and human adaptation”, First Plenary Meeting, Istanbul, Turkey, October 8-15, 2005.

I have placed some links regarding recent Black Sea flood research on Christian’s Atlantis in the Black Sea thread, 3/25/06. Our Great Atlantis Flood Theory places the catastrophic inundation of Atlantis in 9,600 BC, at the end of the Younger Dryas.

Jericho, in our hypothesized scenario of events, was established during the exodus of survivors away from the putrid debris around the Black Sea. The survivors from the Atlantean Province of Egypt located in Colchis, Georgia, journeyed south, following earlier migration routes, reaching Jericho about 9,000 BC. In our perspective, Jericho was early Egypt. From Jericho, the Egyptians established colonies around the Mediterranean Sea. The area of the Nile grew quickly and became the heart of the great empire of ancient Egypt.

Live in Harmony. Enjoy Life!

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Jaime Manuschevich
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quote:
Originally posted by EagleWind:
quote:
"This disaster established by Ryan and Pitman affected all the region."
Noah’s Flood theory is not established. There is a growing amount of evidence that contradicts Ryan and Pitman’s theory.

A presentation called, “High resolution records show continuous sedimentation at 69 m water depth on SW Black Sea Shelf disprove major Holocene flooding for the past 9.3 ka” (R.N. Hiscott, A.E. Aksu, K. Adetona, P.J. MudieD. M.A. Kaminski, J.M. Evans, T. Abrajano, D. Yaşar and F. Marrett, 2005), was presented at the “Black Sea-Mediterranean Corridor during last 30 ky: Sea level change and human adaptation”, First Plenary Meeting, Istanbul, Turkey, October 8-15, 2005.

I have placed some links regarding recent Black Sea flood research on Christian’s Atlantis in the Black Sea thread, 3/25/06. Our Great Atlantis Flood Theory places the catastrophic inundation of Atlantis in 9,600 BC, at the end of the Younger Dryas.

Jericho, in our hypothesized scenario of events, was established during the exodus of survivors away from the putrid debris around the Black Sea. The survivors from the Atlantean Province of Egypt located in Colchis, Georgia, journeyed south, following earlier migration routes, reaching Jericho about 9,000 BC. In our perspective, Jericho was early Egypt. From Jericho, the Egyptians established colonies around the Mediterranean Sea. The area of the Nile grew quickly and became the heart of the great empire of ancient Egypt.

Live in Harmony. Enjoy Life!

I believe that it is very interesting that these new data exist. I think that they help to fix the real date of the deluge - the “great climatic revolution” of Imbrie- that I settle down after the 10,500 BC, with high water levels until the 9500. In my theory, this interpretation of the facts was until now only was a hypothesis observing archaeological rest. The cause of these floods is melting of the sheet plate of ice. Therefore, I do not deny for anything the existence of other floods and disasters in the period that you indicate. Still more, I am convinced that these catastrophes were much more important that the happened one in the Black Sea. Thus I write in my book in Chapter XIV "Beginning and End of Atlantis". Also I concluded that product of these great catastrophes, that eliminated many species and many societies of hunters and gathering, a group of human beings gave beginning to agriculture because they did not have to eat. Also, like you, I concluded that these survivors took refuge in the sea I die and gave beginning there to the civilization. I settled down that his origin, these were surviving of the Ateriense- Capsian culture and Natufian, based on the presence of the microlithic industry and other archaeological details. This subject I discussed it with Christian S. in Greece and it seemed to him very solid my argumentation and data, according to his own investigations. I concluded that the previous societies to the Atlantis were already was expert sailors, and during that period of great climatic instability, they survived in the seas. The myths of Oanes and Noah. Soon they began the civilization in the dates that both we shared.

Our difference is in which for you the Atlantis is the previous phase and for me it is the later phase. I believe that we can do an interesting debate reviewing point by point our own hypotheses and data. I read your general theory in terms and I even wrote an article where the signal. But, of course, it is a very general view.

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Jaime Manuschevich

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EagleWind
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Aloha, Jamie. Thanks for your communication. We have greatly enjoyed our communication with Christian, also. By discussing our similarities and differences we gain new insights and information. Your website is very informative. We are currently re-designing our websites. We will include links to your informative pages. We will launch later this summer.

The hydrology of the Black Sea and Mediterranean Sea is crucial to revealing the history of Atlantis and the development of Human culture in general. We agree with your ideas regarding early sailing. The Dialogues of Plato report that sailing existed long before 9,600 BC. Thanks for your invitation to discuss our ideas in more detail.

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Jaime Manuschevich
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Aloha EagleWind

It seems wonderful to me that we interchange opinions about the subject... I, so far put something related to the subject of the evolution of the civilization and what I relate to two possibilities of facts historical that they could be the scene of bottom for the war between "Greek" and "Atlantean"... The data are interesting, that I understand that Christian also investigated... Soon I will put pages of my book about the subject. Perhaps I must translate it or first... tomorrow or Wednesday I will be able to be able it... You could put the subject of the data of hydrographic of the Black Sea, and your conclusions, if it seems to you well...

I think that the date of 9600 BC indicated by Plato, in fact corresponds with a the beginning of agriculture, of the civilization. The scientific researches say that there they beginning the first human settlement with agriculture; that is to say, in that date start the civilization. In this point, therefore, there is coincidence. Also the myth talking of evolution of these cities by many generations, that is to say, is long lapses of time. Archaeology says us the same, because in the 8000 BC already there are many cities, that a civilization in expansion shows, which also indicates the myth. Again there is coincidence.

When the other events happened, the war and the end of Atlantis? Plato do not put a date to him. Plato says to us that there were fleets of boats, horses and cars battle. And there we are in a great problem. We must look for events in the history that show a similar situation to us. An end takes to dates like the 1200 BC and the towns to us of the sea. Oldest according to my registries, they are the indicated one by Hawkes, when it describes to the expansion of towns agriculturists from east to the West, in boats, by all the Mediterranean Sea (circa 5000 BC). Another one, established by Gimbutas, the Kurgans invasions (circa 4000), that came from the Caucasus. I settle down another one, of the Cananites towards the north (circa 3500 BC), that invaded Egypt and Mesopotamia, by the Red Sea. The problem that has these invasions is that no simultaneously has chariots and fleets of boats.

In the personnel, I incline by a combination of the two first possibilities. One has boats and the other, has horses and cars. Also because they are more near the date than I settled down for the end of Atlantis, the 5600.

I incline to also think that it is a generic story of the war between two cultures: Indo-European and Semites. On this subject in special, I believe that still there is much to study.

The problem is that nothing of these facts happens in the proximity which today we know like the Atlantic Ocean, neither we have nor single data that show similar events in that region.

Here the texts of Hawkes.


quote:

"It seems that the main departure point for the diffusion of the neolithic cultures towards the west throughout the Mediterranean was from Eastern extreme him of the sea... The oldest diffusion (to less of course, than it proves itself that ` was a phase pre potering) is characterized by a type of ceramics with drawings printed before the baking, frequently with the edge of a shell. It is the ceramics of but the old establishment, the one of Mersin, and also apparently of Ram Shamra, [Ugarit], Biblos, and other syrian cities. Towards the west one always is in possession of the oldest agricultural communities, in Crete, Malta, the south of Italy, Sicily, the south of France and the coasts "levantinas" of Spain. Also one is in several small islands... affirms that the same tradition is represented in a series of places throughout the coast of Africa... All these tests indicate, then, towards a propagation of communities farmers by sea... This great diffusion could rather have begun from its Eastern sources before after the beginning of the fourth millenium; one has still not settled down how long demanded that it took the agricultural economy to France and Spain. Perhaps it is a period that exceeds the thousand years." Hawkes, Jacquetta. History of Humanity, Page 293.

Work of Gimbutas


quote:

Stages of expansion
Gimbutas' original suggestion identifies four successive stages of the Kurgan culture and three successive "waves" of expansion.

• Kurgan I, Dnieper/Volga region, earlier half of the 4th millennium BC. Apparently evolving from cultures of the Volga basin, subgroups include the Samara and Seroglazovo cultures.

• Kurgan II–III, latter half of the 4th millennium BC. Includes the Sredny Stog culture and the Maykop culture of the northern Caucasus. Stone circles, early two-wheeled chariots, anthropomorphic stone stelae of deities.

• Kurgan IV or Yamna culture, first half of the 3rd millennium BC, encompassing the entire steppe region from the Ural to Romania.

• Wave 1, predating Kurgan I, expansion from the lower Volga to the Dnieper, leading to coexistence of Kurgan I and the Cucuteni culture. Repercussions of the migrations extend as far as the Balkans and along the Danube to the Vinca and Lengyel cultures in Hungary.

• Wave 2, mid 4th millennium BC, originating in the Maykop culture and resulting in advances of "kurganized" hybrid cultures into northern Europe around 3000 BC (Globular Amphora culture, Baden culture, and ultimately Corded Ware culture). In the view of Gimbutas, this would correspond to the first intrusion of Indo-European languages into western and northern Europe.

• Wave 3, 3000–2800 BC, expansion of the Yamna culture beyond the steppes, with the appearance of the characteristic pit graves as far as the areas of modern Romania, Bulgaria and eastern Hungary.

Timeline

• 4500–4000: Early PIE. Sredny Stog, Dnieper-Donets and Samara cultures, domestication of the horse (Wave 1).

• 4000–3500: The Yamna culture, the prototypical kurgan builders, emerges in the steppe, and the Maykop culture in the northern Caucasus. Indo-Hittite models postulate the separation of Proto-Anatolian before this time.

• 3500–3000: Middle PIE. The Yamna culture is at its peak, representing the classical reconstructed Proto-Indo-European society, with stone idols, early two-wheeled proto-chariots, predominantly practicing animal husbandry, but also with permanent settlements and hillforts, subsisting on agriculture and fishing, along rivers. Contact of the Yamna culture with late Neolithic Europe cultures results in the "kurganized" Globular Amphora Baden cultures (Wave 2). The Maykop culture shows the earliest evidence of the beginning Bronze Age, and Bronze weapons and artefacts are introduced to Yamna territory. Probable early Satemization.

• 3000–2500: Late PIE. The Yamna culture extends over the entire Pontic steppe (Wave 3). The Corded Ware culture extends from the Rhine to the Volga, corresponding to the latest phase of Indo-European unity, the vast "kurganized" area disintegrating into various independent languages and cultures, still in loose contact enabling the spread of technology and early loans between the groups, except for the Anatolian and Tocharian branches, which are already isolated from these processes. The Centum-Satem break is probably complete, but the phonetic trends of Satemization remain active.

• 2500–2000: The breakup into the proto-languages of the attested dialects is complete. Proto-Greek is spoken in the Balkans, Proto-Indo-Iranian north of the Caspian in the emerging Andronovo culture. The Bronze Age reaches Central Europe with the Beaker culture, likely composed of various Centum dialects. The Tarim mummies possibly correspond to proto-Tocharians.

• 2000–1500: The chariot is invented, leading to the split and rapid spread of Iranian and Indo-Aryan from the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex over much of Central Asia, Northern India, Iran and Eastern Anatolia. Proto-Anatolian is split into Hittite and Luwian. The pre-Proto-Celtic Unetice culture has an active metal industry (Nebra skydisk).

• 1500–1000: The Nordic Bronze Age develops pre-Proto-Germanic, and the (pre)-Proto-Celtic Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures emerge in Central Europe, introducing the Iron Age. Migration of the Proto-Italians into the Italian peninsula (Bagnolo stele). Redaction of the Rigveda and rise of the Vedic civilization in the Punjab. The Mycenaean civilization gives way to the Greek Dark Ages.

• 1000 BC–500 BC: The Celtic languages spread over Central and Western Europe. Proto Germanic. Homer and the beginning of Classical Antiquity. The Vedic Civilization gives way to the Mahajanapadas. Zoroaster composes the Gathas, rise of the Achaemenid Empire, replacing the Elamites and Babylonia. Armenians succeed the Urartu culture. Separation of Proto-Italic into Osco-Umbrian and Latin-Faliscan. Genesis of the Greek and Old Italic alphabets. A variety of Paleo-Balkan languages are spoken in Southern Europe. The Anatolian languages are extinct.

more information in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis

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Jaime Manuschevich

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Eagle Wind:

What think you of this article?

quote:
Modelling an Abrupt Climate Change
By Allegra LeGrande and Gavin Schmidt — January 2006

An important reason to understand past climate changes is to help improve climate predictions for the future. This can be a difficult task due to the disparities in time scales (millions of years for past climate compared to decades for future climate), difficulties in the interpretation of past climate records, and the often very different focuses of the paleoclimate and modeling communities. Occasionally, though, a particular past period or event presents itself as an almost ideal case study for model-data comparisons.

Figure 1: Circulation patterns in the North Atlantic Ocean. Cold, dense water is shown in blue, flowing south from upper latitudes, while warm, less dense water flows north. Click for large GIF. (Source: Jack Cook for Ocean and Climate Change Institute, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution.)

One such case was an abrupt cooling event across the Northern Hemisphere which occurred about 8200 years (8.2 kyr) ago and which is documented by multiple types of paleoclimate records as lasting several decades to a few centuries. Separate geologic lines of evidence document the catastrophic drainage of the prehistoric glacial Lakes Agassiz and Ojibway in Canada into the Hudson Bay at approximately the same time. This fresh water pulse may have been the catalyst for a decrease of meridional overturning circulation (MOC) in the North Atlantic (see Figure 1). (MOC is the flow of dense and bottom water away from high-latitude sources and the compensating return flow of less dense upper-ocean water. It is sometimes called the "conveyor belt".) This decrease may have lead to subsequent cooling around the Northern Hemisphere. However, this idea remains to be tested quantitatively.

Turning to the future, the complex coupled ocean-atmosphere models being analyzed for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) 4th Assessment Report need to be validated against as much data as possible. In particular, modellers need to be able to evaluate their models' ocean responses to climate change (see Figure 2). The spread in model projections for the North Atlantic MOC as a function of increasing greenhouse gases is extremely large, ranging from an almost 50% decrease to a small increase by 2100. In part, this uncertainty stems from modellers tuning for the existence of a stable North Atlantic circulation, but not being able to tune for its sensitivity for lack of appropriate data.

Figure 2: Simulated water-volume transport change of the Atlantic "conveyor belt" in a range of global warming scenarios computed by different climate research centers. Shown is the annual mean relative to the mean of the years 1961 to 1990 (units SV = 106 m3/s). The past forcings are only due to greenhouse gases and aerosols. Click for large GIF or PDF. (Source: Chapter 9 of IPCC report Climate Change 2001: The Scientific Basis)

Useful model-data comparisons have a number of pre-requisites. Wide-spread and clear data on the event is crucial, but even more important is the existence of a plausible and interesting candidate for the cause of the climate change. Changes in MOC have been deduced for many paleoclimatic periods, but a further set of constraints prevents modellers being able to take full advantage of that data. In short, for fully coupled climate models the initial conditions need to be close to those of the present day, and the duration of the event needs to be short enough to be tractable with current computer resources (i.e., decades to centuries rather than millennia). This mitigates against the use of climate variability such as Dansgaard-Oeschger and Heinrich events during the last glacial period and possibly the Younger Dryas cooling (a good example of an effect with an as-yet-unquantified cause) about 10,000 years ago.

The 8.2 kyr abrupt climate change event would therefore appear to have it all: well-dated and widespread data, a relatively short duration, base climate close to modern (only remnant ice sheets, minor differences in greenhouse gases compared to the pre-industrial, and relatively small insolation differences), a potentially important ocean response, and crucially, a quantifiable hypothesis for a cause — the catastrophic draining of Lakes Agassiz and Ojibway. Our simulations of this event using GISS ModelE therefore take the hypothesized cause and try to reproduce the response. (This model is exactly the same as that used for IPCC simulations of future climate.) The cause is straightforwardly done; we add appropriate volumes of water to the Hudson Bay in very short bursts (six months to a year).

Figure 3: GISS ModelE simulated 8.2 kyr climate response to freshwater forcing in the Hudson Bay (2.5 to 5 Sv years, or 25-50 cm of equivalent sea level). Panels (a) and (b) show the model's simulated changes in surface air temperature and precipitation, respectively. Panels (c) and (d) show changes in the simulated tracers directly compared to oxygen isotopes (or temperature and precipitation proxies) in the paleoclimate record. Click for large GIF or PDF. (Source: NASA GISS)

Judging the response is harder. To have a more consistent match to the data, we used multiple "tracers" in the model (water isotopes, methane, dust, and other aerosols) to "forward model" the same past climate records that we see in past climate proxies such as ice cores, cave records, and ocean and lake sediments. What do we see? It turns out that the amount of water in the lake can cause sufficient changes in the density of the North Atlantic to cause a slowdown in the MOC of between 30 and 60%, large enough to cause significant cooling (up to 2-3°C, or 3.5 to 5.5°F, in areas of the North Atlantic) and shifts in rainfall bands to the south in both the North Atlantic and the tropics.

The climate changes affect the tracers in predictable ways. Water isotopes become more depleted in line with the cooling (as observed), and because of the reduced rainfall in the region, dust and aerosol concentrations increase in Greenland snow (as observed). Methane emissions respond to the drying — reducing wetland extent, and cooling — reducing the basic anaerobic respiration by bacteria (again, as observed). Put together, the match to the observed data is very good over a whole range of proxies with very different biogeochemical behavior.

What does this imply? Given the very different physics of each of the proxies, it seems unlikely that the model would give good results for all of them if its simulated climate response was completely off. Therefore, the results demonstrate that a multi-decadal period of reduced overturning in the ocean is very consistent with the whole pattern of the observed event. By scaling the model's response a little, we estimate that a reduction of about 50% in the MOC is the most consistent with the data.

Thus, we have now been able to test the ocean's response to freshwater forcing. While the 8.2 kyr event is not an analog for what may happen in the future, a slowdown in the MOC is predicted by our model (and others) for a future world, partly as a function of ocean warming and partly as a function of increased freshening from ice melt and increased rainfall. As more models perform these kinds of experiments, it may be possible to narrow the uncertainties in the future projections based on how well they simulate the 8.2 kyr event.

Also See
News Release: Scientists Confirm Historic Massive Flood in Climate Change

References
LeGrande, A.N., G.A. Schmidt, D.T. Shindell, C.V. Field, R.L. Miller, D.M. Koch, G. Faluvegi, and G. Hoffmann 2006. Consistent simulations of multiple proxy responses to an abrupt climate change event. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. 103, 837-842, doi:10.1073pnas.0510095103.
Schmidt, G.A., and A.N. LeGrande 2005. The Goldilocks abrupt climate change event. Quaternary Sci. Rev. 24, 1109-1110, doi:10.1016/j.quascirev.2005.01.015.
Contact
Please address all inquiries about this research to Allegra LeGrande.


+ NASA Privacy Policy and Important Notices GISS Website Curator: Robert B. Schmunk
Responsible NASA Official: James E. Hansen
Page updated: 2006-02-28

http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20060228/

[ 04-27-2006, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Jaime Manuschevich ]

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Jaime Manuschevich

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quote:

Originally posted by Huggy Bear:
i don't rely on evidence, i proceed by deduction, with proofs you get nowhere, you stay where you are. try to understand this for an example. during ice age, despite sea level was much lower than today, parts of east coast of america were 300 feet under sea level.

quote:
Originally posted by Essan:
Due to isostasy - the weight of the ice sheets pushing down on the crust.

I deduce that you haven't done enough research yet

quote:

Correct. In fact, we do not know as were the real level of sea does 12 thousand years before. It is enough to study the work of Kurt Lambeck to realize anomaly tremendous that there are with respect to the subject. Also there are other very recent studies that say the same. Still it is left much field to investigate, since we know that there are two clearly different alterations, although interdependent: the water levels and the variations of the tectonic plates, witch without a doubt are not uniform. I, guiding me by other four phenomena - dispersion of some species, congealed masses of water, desertification and archaeological rest of old ports, reaches a conclusion totally different from the traditional one, that it thinks that the levels were lower.

My conclusion is that before the melting of the ice sheets the seas were about 80 meters higher than today. Soon they raised up to 120 meters or perhaps more. Soon they began to descend slowly until does very just a short time. The reduction went approximately to a rate of a meter by every 100 years. I maintain that there was a process of ice crossing from the North Pole to the South Pole. Also, I maintain that the frozen masses of do 12 thousands or something more years, were inferior to the present ones. Today there are almost 60 million congealed cubical kilometres of water in both poles. Before there was something more than half, taking in consideration the extension of the ice and the averages of height.

I explain it. There are important differences between both poles. The variations in the heights average are significant: 500 metres in the North Pole versus 2,458 metres in South Pole. The same it happens with the frozen surfaces: 6, 2 kilometres square in the North Pole versus 25 million square kilometres in the South Pole. These data indicate to us great differences in the cubical kilometres of ice between both poles. The North Pole has 3 million cubical kilometres of ice in as much the South Pole has almost 57 million cubical kilometres of ice. If we return 17 thousand years back and we congealed the North Hemisphere in the surfaces that we know that they were it, (number that I give by well-known) we would have 25 million cubical kilometres, in a radius of 3 thousand kilometres from the North Pole. This data would take us number to the total of 82 kilometres cubical congealed (60-3+25).

If this quantity were right, it could not have existed the climate that we know that it existed in that past, that was greener and benign in many subtropical Earth regions: Middle East, North Africa, Gobi, Siberia, South American Plateau, the Middle West of North American, Australia (also I give by well-known the equation). That forces to us to conclude that the South Pole had less ice than today, which ratify many studies, in special the one of W.D. Urry and the Byrd expedition, that I indicate that there were fresh water rivers flowing in Antarctica until does 6 thousand years, verifying that the ice covered only the half of the Antarctica, the Eastern part of it. That releases half to us of the present ice of the South Pole: 28,5 million cubical kilometres of water of South Pole. In addition, the height average also had to be inferior, which releases to us, we say half of other half, a quarter, is to say 14.25 million cubical kilometres, but a reduction of the radius, to half, releasing another amount of ice, we say 7.1 million cubical kilometres. Then we have 82-28, 5-14,2-7,1 = 32.2 million cubical kilometres of congealed water, that is to say, 27.8 million less net to those than we have today. In particular, there was more water in the seas and more humidity in the atmosphere. As the sea has around 1300 million cubical kilometres of water, the indicated number it represent something more of a 2,1%. As the sea has an average of 3,784 meters, you are numbers takes us meters to 79.46. That is to say, 80 meters approximate more of water in the oceans.

This process explains the existence of the Dryas III or Dryas Modern and the Dryas Younger, witch was a short dry periods that happened while the South Pole was congealed and lowered the humidity levels of all Earth.

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Jaime Manuschevich


Here there is an interesting material about the climatic change that I have indicated.

http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/news/20060228/

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Jaime Manuschevich

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EagleWind
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Aloha Jaime,

In our enjoyable pursuit of discussing our common interest in ancient history and the origins of our civilization, and the great works of our cherished ancestors; may I present our basis that the dialogues of Plato regarding Atlantis are true translations of the original sacred Atlantean records, except for the names of the characters and places. Our premise is that these names were purposely altered, by the Egyptians , to protect the location of their beloved ancestors from being defiled.

This deliberate deception would serve two very valuable purposes: it would send competitors sailing out into the Atlantic Ocean and far away from the true location of the great treasures of their ancestors. It would also provide a common history for the citizens of Egypt, who had lost knowledge of the Black Sea and their original Motherland.

Elaborating on the possible reasoning for diberately altering the location of Atlantis from the Black Sea to the Atlantic Ocean:

First, the ancient Egyptians wanted to protect the sacred motherland of their ancestors. The devastating inundation of Atlantis caused wide-spread disease and the survivors had to migrate away from the putrid sea. They fled in every direction, following old migration routes. The citizens of the Atlantean Province of Egypt (Colchis) migrated southward. This left the entire area, of the empire of Atlantis, a sacred holy land, filled with the sacred bones of their ancestors and the enormous wealth of valuable treasures their ancestors had created. The deliberate deception would protect their sacred Motherland from being defiled and looted by their enemies, seafaring traders, and marauding barbarians.

Secondly, the ancient Egyptian priests had the great responsibilities of providing the citizens of their new nation, on the Mediterranean Sea, with a history and spiritual beliefs that would unite the diverse populous and cause them to honor their leader and build a strong and prospering united nation.

When the Egyptians arrived at the Mediterranean Sea, they realized they had come upon a perfect place to found their new empire. The priests and scholars of Egypt realized they now lived on the eastern Mediterranean, instead of the eastern Black Sea; however, the ancestry of the indigenous priests came from the western Mediterranean and other migration routes. As the Egyptians mixed with the local tribes, their pantheon of gods and goddesses, myths and history became mixed with the local traditions.

Perhaps, great debates occurred among them as they deciphered the sacred golden tablets which their ancestors from Atlantis had tearfully scribed. They translated the names of the actors in this ancient drama into the names of the gods and goddesses that were popular at the time, according to their character. The geographical names they translated into various locations around the Mediterranean, which were familiar to the populous. This created a common origin for all the citizens. Only the highest priests and royalty of Egypt knew the secret that their sacred motherland lays by another forgotten sea far to the north, the Black Sea.

I thank you for your indulgence, now I return to our current subject of the hydrology of the Black Sea;

The articles you have posted certainly support that there is great controversy in the studies of the ancient hydrology of our beautiful Blue Planet. We place the sea level of the Black Sea at 20 meters below its current level in 9,600 BC.

In the Dialogues, Plato reveals that the Island of Atlantis disappeared beneath the sea in a single day and night .

The extraordinary flooding at the end of the Younger Dryas, in 9,600 BC, corresponds exactly with Plato’s date of the great flood of Atlantis. This massive flooding was caused by melting ice which had previously driven Humans from the northern European areas into three ice age havens. One in Spain, one in the Balkans and one in Ukraine. The former vast fertile Azov plain, now buried beneath 11,600 years of alluvial silt, corresponds perfectly with the description of the Island of Atlantis.

We propose that the earthquake caused the Caspian Sea to break into the Azov fertile plain (our location of the Island of Atlantis) and flood the entire plain, causing the submergence of the vast canal system and fertile farmlands of Atlantis beneath the Sea of Azov.

Below, I post some links referenced above, for continuity of your thread. These studies support the possibility of this devastating flood.

quote:

“The Black Sea-Mediterranean Corridor (“Corridor”) is an integrated oceanographic system defined here as the large geographical area covering the Manych-Kerch Gateway (Manych Valley, the Sea of Azov and the Kerch Strait) that lies to the east of the Black Sea, the Black Sea, the Marmara Gateway (the Bosphorus Strait, the Sea of Marmara and the Dardanelles), the Aegean Sea, the Eastern Mediterranean and their coasts. At the Late Pleistocene the “Corridor” was connected to the Caspian Sea via Manych Gateway .”

“Over the past 30 ky, the “Corridor” underwent a complicated history, which remains hotly debated. Lately, this region has spurred a tremendous international interest as a possible place where the biblical story of the Great Flood originated, encouraging a new round of controversial research on the hydrological regime in connecting straits, transition from a lacustrine to a marine environment, an influence of the Black Sea outflow on deposition of the Eastern Mediterranean sapropels as well as past/present/future adaptation of humans to environmental change.”

http://www.avalon-institute.org/IGCP/outline.html


quote:

“Rapid sea-level fluctuations have taken place in the Caspian Sea since it became a closed basin about 5.5 Ma ago. The Caspian sea, now at -27 m below oceanic sea level, is known to have had highstands of +50 m and -80? m in the last 100,000 years, and even higher highstands further afield. However, absolute dating of the Pliocene, Pleistocene and Holocene Caspian sea level changes has been notoriously unsuccessful. Just to cite an example, the Early Khvalyn + 50 highstand is regarded by Rychagov (1977, 1997) to have taken place at 70 ka BP on the base of U/Th datings of marine terraces in Dagestan, but at 15 ka according to Svitoch (1991) on the basis of datings of molluscs along the Lower Volga.”

“This question is also related to the unsolved controversy whether or not proglacial ice-dammed lakes in Siberia and Northern Russia existed during the last deglaciation, and in how far they have led to drainage diversions towards the Caspian Sea (Grosswald, 1980, 2002; Mangerud et al., 2001, Charbit et al., 2002)

"Results from the Franco-Russian coring campaign in the Caspian in 1994 (Escudié et al., 1998; Leroy et al., Chalié et al., Jelinovska et al, 1998 suggest that the transition to the Holocene coincided with a regression .”

http://www.caspage.citg.tudelft.nl/project.html


quote:

"Toward the end of the last glacial period, about 11,000 to 13,000 years ago, surging alpine and outlet glaciers in the Altai dammed montane rivers, creating large glacial lakes. These ice dams subsequently failed, causing catastrophic floods. The largest of these floods resulted from emptying two interconnected lakes on the Chuya River; this flood is referred to here as the Altai Flood."


" Floodwaters rushed into paleo-Lake Mansi, causing the lake level to rise enough to overtop the Turgay Spillway and flow southwest into the Aral Sea. This, in turn, spilled into the Caspian Sea, then the Black Sea, and eventually into the Mediterranean Sea ."

THE ALTAI FLOOD: http://www.mines.edu/academic/geology/faculty/klee/altai.doc


quote:

At the Late Glacial time (16-13 ka BP ; 14C on mollusk’s shells) a Great Eurasian Basin System (~1.5 million km2, ~650,000-700,000 km3) developed due to a climate warming, the melting of the Scandinavia Ice Sheet and massive river discharge. This is supported by freshwater and alluvial sediments (e.g., chocolate clays, loams and sands with a thickness of ca 20-30 m) with endemic Caspian mollusks Didacna, Monodacna, Adacna, and Hypanis widely distributed from the Caspian Sea to the Dardanelles including waterways between the basins .”

At the beginning (16-15 ka BP), the flood was especially rapid, increasing the Caspian Sea level by 100-150 m, reaching +50 m and pushing the Volga River mouth upstream in ca 1,500 km. The discharge of the large (Volga, Don, Dnieper) and small rivers increased by 2-4 and 20-35 times respectively, causing megafloods. The high speed of the flood can be seen from incising river paleomeanders not filled with sediment. A large amount of water could not be kept in the Caspian depression and was discharged into the Neweuxinian basin (ancient Black Sea) through the Manych-Kerch Strait at a speed 50,000 m3 sec-1 , and from there across the Bosporus to the Sea of Marmara.”

LATE GLACIAL GREAT FLOOD IN THE BLACK SEA AND CASPIAN SEA, TCHEPALYGA, Andrey, Institute of Geography, Russian Academy of Science.
http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2003AM/finalprogram/abstract_63243.htm


quote:

“SEQUENCE STRATIGRAPHY OF THE LATE PLEISTOCENE –HOLOCENE DEPOSITS ON THE NORTHWESTERN MARGIN OF
THE SOUTH CASPIAN BASIN.

Conclusion #: 11. The lake experienced abundant high- frequency and high-amplitude fluctuations in level. These lake- level changes are believed to have been controlled by an interaction of tectonic and climatic factors. Climate-driven fluctuations of the lake level may be related to Milankovitch-type climatic variations. Changes in lake level have a major impact on the rate of sediment supply, accommodation space and depositional environments. Rapid sedimentation rates on the northwestern margin of the SCB during the late Pleistocene - Holocene averaged more than 5 m/1000 years. Rapid fluctuations in the lake level, high rate and type of sediment supply, proximity to the shelf edge, tectonic dynamics and mud volcano activity are the principal factors for sedimentation on the northwestern margin of the SCB.

Abstract: http://geoweb.tamu.edu/RResearch/abs0803.html
Theses: http://txspace.tamu.edu/bitstream/1969.1/1185/1/etd-tamu-2003B-2003052915-Rahm-1.pdf


Thanks for your warm communication and information.

Live in Harmony. Enjoy Life!

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Jaime Manuschevich
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Aloha EagleWind
Excellent material. Your analysis of a potential intentional trickery of Egyptian and the hide of the information seems to me very interesting. I go it to analyze in detail and I will comment out my. Now, that material archaeological you use to maintain that there he existed Atlantis. Perhaps I have reviewed the zone and the material is little, the best thing is Cave Belt.

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Jaime Manuschevich

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Aloha EagleWind:

Reviewing the data that you contribute, that is excellent to understand the climatic conditions of the region, but I have important questions.

Given these complex conditions climatic, it is possible that a civilization is born there?

According to which I have studied, sociologists and anthropologists indicate that so that can be born a civilization, it are to fulfill several requirements economic, climatic, topographic and geographic:

- The region must have about 3 thousand kilometres of diameter.
- The region must have a tempered climate, with several thousands of years of stability.
- The region must have a subtropical climate and tempering.
- The region must have mountain ranges and rivers.
- The region must be protecting of fast climatic cooling.

And in this sense, there are several essential aspects that here, apparently, are not fulfilled...

It is very important to analyze the history of the civilization and in which conditions it occur the birth of it. In that sense, all the civilizations that we know were born in certain conditions, witch are the indicated ones previously. All the first civilizations are developed in a very specific Earth strip, its are Anazasi civilization or Chinese civilization.

What think you about this subject?

[ 05-04-2006, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Jaime Manuschevich ]

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Jaime Manuschevich

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Rich
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Dear Jaime,
Cepheus is a rather interesting character, you might be interested in.


http://domeofthesky.com/clicks/cep.html
"King Cepheus was the King of Ethiopia, which in Greek myth, according to Ridpath, was conceived to be a country stretching from Palestine down to the shores of the Red Sea and included parts of present-day Israel, Jordan and Egpt. "

Note: the name Ethiopia derives its name from Thebes, Egypt according to newton. ie.. land of Thebes, or under Egyptian control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cepheus
%2C_King_of_Aethiopia
"The first Cepheus (son of Belus) has a wife named Iope. The name Iope looks like a truncated version of Cassiopeia, but it is probably eponymous with the 'Aethiopian' city of Ioppa (=Joppa, later Jaffa).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa
"Jaffa's natural harbor has been occupied since the Bronze Age. It is mentioned in an Ancient Egyptian letter from 1470 BC, glorifying its conquest by Pharaoh Thutmose III"

*******************

ok... Unrelated crazy theory from Newton.
Newton derives the name YHVA or Jahova from Jupiter. I believe Jahova is also Joshua in the old testament... could Joshua be related to Jupiter? One of the Jupiters, that is... as there are several.

[ 05-05-2006, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: Rich ]

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EagleWind
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Aloha Jaime,

I think the topics you have chosen to begin our comparison of Atlantis in Israel with Atlantis in Azov are excellent.

If the civilization, beginning about 9,000 BC, by the eastern Mediterranean Sea was founded by immigrants from the northern and eastern Black Sea area, such a comparison could produce exciting new perspectives. However, Jaime, before I respond to the first condition of civilization; I would like to verify that you are comfortable with me presenting this information on your “Atlantis in Israel” thread. I do not want to intrude or disrupt the flow of the Israel location discussion.

If it is your desire to proceed, I will enjoy preparing my response.

Live in Harmony. Enjoy Life! EagleWind

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quote:
Originally posted by Rich:
Dear Jaime,
Cepheus is a rather interesting character, you might be interested in.


http://domeofthesky.com/clicks/cep.html
"King Cepheus was the King of Ethiopia, which in Greek myth, according to Ridpath, was conceived to be a country stretching from Palestine down to the shores of the Red Sea and included parts of present-day Israel, Jordan and Egpt. "

Note: the name Ethiopia derives its name from Thebes, Egypt according to newton. ie.. land of Thebes, or under Egyptian control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cepheus
%2C_King_of_Aethiopia
"The first Cepheus (son of Belus) has a wife named Iope. The name Iope looks like a truncated version of Cassiopeia, but it is probably eponymous with the 'Aethiopian' city of Ioppa (=Joppa, later Jaffa).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa
"Jaffa's natural harbor has been occupied since the Bronze Age. It is mentioned in an Ancient Egyptian letter from 1470 BC, glorifying its conquest by Pharaoh Thutmose III"

*******************

ok... Unrelated crazy theory from Newton.
Newton derives the name YHVA or Jahova from Jupiter. I believe Jahova is also Joshua in the old testament... could Joshua be related to Jupiter? One of the Jupiters, that is... as there are several.

Very interesting your information. A new data is always useful. Of this myth which comes to me at the top is the story of Nemrod, first powerful and the conquering one according to the Bible. This he would be son of Cush and grandson of Kem. Would be the constructor of the tower of Babel. (Gene 10-8) Flavio Josefo calls Nebrodes, also son does of Cush and grandson of Kem and presents like a great conqueror and tyrant. The historians identify him with Sargon I.

quote:
Sargon of Akkad, or Sargon the Great (Akkadian Sharru-kin "the true king", reigned 2334 BC - 2279 BC, founder of the Dynasty of Akkad. Sometimes he is referred to Sargon I. He is only the third king in recorded history to have created an empire, after the Sumerians Lugal-anne-mundu and Lugal-zage-si. Sargon's vast empire is known to have extended from Elam to the Mediterranean sea, including Mesopotamia and possibly parts of Anatolia. He ruled from a new capital, Akkad, situated on the left bank of the Euphrates, between Sippar and Kish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargon_of_Akkad
Also the history of Sargón raises to the love a woman.

Sargon's dream involved the favor of the goddess Inanna and the drowning of Ur-Zababa by the goddess.

Its origin is modest, which moves away it of the local aristocracies.

quote:
From the Sumerian king list: "In Agade [Akkad], Sargon, whose father was a gardener, the cupbearer of Ur-Zababa, became king, the king of Agade, who built Agade; he ruled for 56 years."


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quote:
Originally posted by EagleWind:
Aloha Jaime,

I think the topics you have chosen to begin our comparison of Atlantis in Israel with Atlantis in Azov are excellent.

If the civilization, beginning about 9,000 BC, by the eastern Mediterranean Sea was founded by immigrants from the northern and eastern Black Sea area, such a comparison could produce exciting new perspectives. However, Jaime, before I respond to the first condition of civilization; I would like to verify that you are comfortable with me presenting this information on your “Atlantis in Israel” thread. I do not want to intrude or disrupt the flow of the Israel location discussion.

If it is your desire to proceed, I will enjoy preparing my response.

Live in Harmony. Enjoy Life! EagleWind

There is not problem. Also you it can make to me the questions on which you it wants in this site. Also, both we can answer the same questions and give opinions. It would be I engage in a dialog constructive. On the other hand, I believe that the data that You contribute, can aid to all, because we are analyzing territory very near. Also we agreed in other data, like for example, the root in Jericho.

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Aloha Jaime,

In response to your list of requirements of civilization;


1. The region must have about 3 thousand kilometres of diameter.

The Sea of Azov is surrounded by Europe (in Solon’s time, by definition, it was surrounded by Europe and Asia). This seems sufficient to satisfy the land mass point, unless there are some other criteria.

We also might consider the 3,000-kilometer-long cultural corridor connecting the northern slopes of the Pyrenees with the river valleys of European Russia. The Dialogues of Plato state that the Hellenes were renowned throughout Europe and Asia. Statuettes, frequently called Venus, and stone tools show possible cultural contact along this corridor. The work of Marija Gimbutas may be considered also. Kostenki 1, on the Don River in Russia, dates range from 24,000 to 21,000 B.P. Stone, ivory and bone artwork and tools, including sewing needles, were found at Kostenki 1. For more information: Self-Representation in Upper Paleolithic Female Figurines by LeRoy McDermott. http://cmsu2.cmsu.edu/~ldm4683/3.htm


2. The region must have mountain ranges and rivers.

The area of the Sea of Azov is very well watered. This area is famous for the high mineral content of it’s famous healing water. Many small rivers enter the plain from the surrounding mountains and the mighty Don River enters the Sea of Azov from the north. We may suppose that even during the drier climate of the ice age, there would have been summer melt-off. The Dialogues of Plato state that canals were needed to water the crops, of the Island of Atlantis, during the dry season.


3. The region must have a subtropical climate and tempering. &
4. The region must be protecting of fast climatic cooling.

The area of the Sea of Azov is surrounded by mountains. The mountains to the north are not very tall. They are less than 400 meters. We can ask ourselves how these relatively short mountains could have blocked the northern blasts. However, the Dialogues of Plato do not state that it is the mountains that shelter the Island from the cold. The Dialogues state only that the Island is sheltered from the northern blasts. There may be another factor which plays a major role in the climatology of this area.

The Ukrainian Crystalline Shield , located north of the Azov plain, with layers of iron ore, generate the strongest magnetic anomaly on Earth. This powerful magnetic anomaly may have been a major contributing factor to the creation of the ice age haven in Ukraine. One of the main lines of activity of the Department of Geomagnetism, Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, Institute of Geophysics is studying the production of magnetochronological scale of Late Glacial period - Holocene and revealing of relations of changes of magnetic field and the climate during this time. Full article: GFC, Potsdam, Magnetic Field Model MF3 (lithospheric), http://www.gfz-potsdam.de/pb2/pb23/SatMag/litmod3.html


5. The region must have a tempered climate, with several thousands of years of stability.

Populations of Humans congregated in ice-age refugia in the Iberian Peninsula, the Balkans and the Ukraine. This had the effect of keeping people in one place since migration was difficult. This created the possibility of long term development of their culture. Full article: DNA Heritage. http://www.dnaheritage.com/masterclass2.asp

“Scientists interpret the distribution of Haplotype R1 as expansions from isolated populations in the Iberian Peninsula (Spain, Portugal) and the present Ukraine, following the last ice age. During the last ice age (20,000 to 13,000 years ago) Western Europe was isolated from Central Europe and humans were forced to vacate Central Europe with the exception of a refuge in the northern Balkans. After the climate improved, about 10-12,000 years ago, your ancestors spread north and east.” Full article: Genelex, Science that benefits Humanity, page 3. http://www.healthanddna.com/Ysample.PDF

Evidence of the development of culture has been found in Ukraine. Villages of mammoth bone houses surrounded by teepee-like structures were established in Ukraine by 15,000 BC. The oldest known map in the world, discovered by archeologists, is from 12,000 B.C. and was found in Mezhirich, Ukraine. Full article: Ancient Inventions of Ukraine by Andrew Gregorovich. http://www.infoukes.com/history/inventions/

From the time of proposed massive flooding about 20,000 BC until the earthquake and flood that possibly inundated the Sea of Azov, in 9,600 BC, this area seems to have had a relatively stable environment which would have facilitated the development of civilization. Especially, considering that Ukraine could be completely self-sufficient.

Ukraine contains very fertile rare chernozem soil, plenty of water, extensive minerals, building stones, coal, oil, hydrothermal energy, all metals mentioned by Plato, including tin. “In consideration of the qualitative make up of its soils and productivity of its lands, Ukraine is seen as the richest country in the world.” Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Ukraine, Natural Resources. Full article: http://www.mfa.gov.ua/mfa/en/publication/content/373.htm


Dear Jaime, I have initially replied using rather broad information, as foundation stones. We may take a closer look at each point as we go along. Thanks for your communication.

Live in Harmony. Enjoy Life! EagleWind

[ 05-07-2006, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: EagleWind ]

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Dear EagleWind:
In agreement. I believe that it is important to analyze a territory that could be the mythical earth that we looked for, to see if it fulfills the basic conditions. Before giving my opinion, I would like to review these data with calm. In any case, at first sight, if they fulfill the test. Reason why I have studied, I only have some doubts with respect to the climatic conditions. Soon, I will put some data that I know. Also, I am available to answer your questions.

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Here I sent an interesting genetic data that show it that the colonization of cattle and agriculturists peoples to Spain arrived from Africa and the Middle East, that is exactly what I indicate.

quote:

AGRICULTURAL SCIENCES

Prehistoric contacts over the Straits of Gibraltar indicated by genetic analysis of Iberian Bronze Age cattle



Cecilia Anderung, Abigail Bouwman, Per Persson, José Miguel Carretero, Ana Isabel Ortega, Rengert Elburg , Colin Smith, Juan Luis Arsuaga, Hans Ellegren, and Anders Götherström,

Department of Evolutionary Biology, Evolutionary Biology Centre, Uppsala University
Norbyvägen 18D, SE-752 36 Uppsala, Sweden;
Faculty of Life Sciences, Jackson's Mill, University of Manchester, Manchester M60 1QD, United Kingdom;
Department of Archaeology, Gothenburg University, Box 200, SE-405 30 Gothenburg, Sweden;
Laboratorio de Evolución Humana, Departamento de Ciencias Históricas y Geografía, Universidad de Burgos, Edificio I+D+i, Plaza Misael de Bañuelos s/n, 09001 Burgos, Spain;
I/O-Graph Germany, Buchenstrasse 3, D-01097 Dresden, Germany;
Museo Nacional de Ciencias Naturales, C/Jose Gutierrez Abascal, 2, 28006 Madrid, Spain; and Centro Universidad Complutense de Madrid-Instituto de Salud Carlos III de Evolución y Comportamiento Humanos, C/Sinesio Delgado, 4, Pabellón 14, 28029 Madrid, Spain

Contributed by Juan Luis Arsuaga, April 25, 2005

The geographic situation of the Iberian Peninsula makes it a natural link between Europe and North Africa. However, it is a matter of debate to what extent African influences via the Straits Gibraltar have affected Iberia's prehistoric development. Because early African pastoralist communities were dedicated to cattle breeding, a possible means to detect prehistoric African–Iberian contacts might be to analyze the origin of cattle breeds on the Iberian Peninsula. Some contemporary Iberian cattle breeds show a mtDNA haplotype, T1, that is characteristic to African breeds, generally explained as being the result of the Muslim expansion of the 8th century A.D., and of modern imports. To test a possible earlier African influence, we analyzed mtDNA of Bronze Age cattle from the Portalón cave at the Atapuerca site in northern Spain. Although the majority of samples showed the haplotype T3 that dominates among European breeds of today, the T1 haplotype was found in one specimen radiocarbon dated 1800 calibrated years B.C. Accepting T1 as being of African origin, this result indicates prehistoric African–Iberian contacts and lends support to archaeological finds linking early African and Iberian cultures. We also found a wild ox haplotype in the Iberian Bronze Age sample, reflecting local hybridization or backcrossing or that aurochs were hunted by these farming cultures.

Author contributions: A.G. designed research; C.A., A.B., C.S., and A.G. performed research; J.M.C., A.I.O., R.E., J.L.A., H.E., and A.G. contributed new reagents/analytic tools; C.A., P.P., C.S., J.L.A., H.E., and A.G. analyzed data; and C.A. wrote the paper.
Abbreviation: cal, calibrated years.

Data deposition: The sequences reported in this paper have been deposited in the GenBank database (accession nos. AY847188–AY847219.

To whom correspondence should be addressed. E-mail: anders.gotherstrom@ebc.uu.se .
© 2005 by The National Academy of Sciences of the USA
This article has been cited by other articles in HighWire Press-hosted journals: (Search Google Scholar for Other Citing Articles)




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quote:
`La Vanguardia´ publishes that the brave bull "is son of immigration"

09.05.06

Filed in Miscelánea (PD/Agencias).

The brave bull is not in fact of Spanish origin, but that descends from head of cattle that arrived by sea from Africa and which they were crossed animals coming from the bóvidos east of Europe and wild, according to an international equipment of genetistas that has reconstructed the history of the European cattle.

Josep Corbella writes in the Vanguard that the Catalan ass also has an African origin: he descends from asses domesticated in Africa, probably in some place between Somalia and Egypt, according to have demonstrated investigators of the same equipment.

The investigators in the Proceedings magazine, of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States, that presented its results yesterday, write: "the domestication of the cattle from the wild uros was an important step in the history of the humanity, that took to deep changes in the diet, the behavior and the socioeconomic structure of many populations".

It was domesticated at least twice

Archaeological studies indicate that the bovines ones were domesticated at least twice, the one in Middle East and other in the valley of the Hindu, and who the domestication began about 11,000 years ago. The little genetic data available until now made think that the present European cattle descend from the head of cattle domesticated in Middle East , that extended by the continent throughout the Neolithic one. But the genetic analysis of five uros that lived between ago 7,000 and 17,000 years, discovered recently in Italy, next to the analysis of more than thousand present head of cattle, demonstrates now that history was not so simple. The first unexpected result of the investigation is that the animals "coming from Middle East crossed themselves native uros", declared yesterday Carles Lalueza, biologist of the Universitat of Barcelona and coauthor of the work.



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EagleWind
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Aloha Jaime,

Regarding our conversation about climate. Here is some information from an article about the climate of Europe during the last 150,000 years. Unfortunately it does not extend to include Israel. However, the general climate may be considered, as it affected your area also.

quote:
"large climate changes in Europe/Near East during the last 15,000 calendar years (note that these dates are in 'real' years not radiocarbon years).

14,500 y.a. - rapid warming and moistening of climates. Rapid deglaciation begins.

13,500 y.a. - climates about as warm and moist as today's

13,000 y.a. 'Older Dryas' cold phase (lasting about 200 years) before a partial return to warmer conditions.


12,800 y.a. (+/- 200 years)- rapid stepwise onset of the intensely cold Younger Dryas. Much drier than present over much of Europe and the Middle East, though wetter-than-present conditions at first prevailed in NW Europe.

11,500 y.a. (+/- 200 years) - Younger Dryas ends suddenly over a few decades, back to relative warmth and moist climates (Holocene, or Isotope Stage 1).

11,500 - 10,500 y.a. - climates possibly still slightly cooler than present-day.


9,000 y.a. - 8,200 y.a. - climates warmer and often moister than today's

about 8,200 y.a. - sudden cool phase lasting about 200 years, about half-way as severe as the Younger Dryas. Wetter-than-present conditions in NW Europe, but drier than present in eastern Turkey.

8,000-4,500 y.a. - climates generally slightly warmer and moister than today's.


(but; at 5,900 y.a. - a possible sudden and short-lived cold phase corresponding to the 'elm decline').

Since about 4,500 y.a. - climates fairly similar to the present"

Full article may be viewed at: http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nercEUROPE.html

Live in Harmony Enjoy Life! EagleWind

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I am reviewed of very careful way the map about the climate of Europe, Africa and Asia, available in the site that you have indicated to me. They are very useful to understand the real conditions in that a civilization could evolve... Soon I will comment out.

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Hello
I hope you don't mind me entering the conversation, but I was wondering if you learned folks had considered that Atlantis and The Garden of Eden may be the same thing? If you type in The Garden of Eden in your search window, you will find an article telling about Juris Zarins, who thinks the Garden of Eden is in the Persian Gulf. There is also an expedition being undertaken in Cyprus as some folks think the two locations may be one and the same, and the location is Cyprus. It seems that when the "Gibralter Dam" broke, this caused the flooding of the Peninsula, and eventually "sank" the area in question.
What do you think? [Confused]

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Hi Qoais, and welcome to the forum. I think you're talking about the Robert Sarmast expedition to Cyprus, which has been the topic of discussion in the topic, "Discovery of Atlantis." It's certainly possible that it's Eden, which many Bible scholars believe was drowned in the Great Flood.
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quote:
Originally posted by Qoais:
Hello
I hope you don't mind me entering the conversation, but I was wondering if you learned folks had considered that Atlantis and The Garden of Eden may be the same thing? If you type in The Garden of Eden in your search window, you will find an article telling about Juris Zarins, who thinks the Garden of Eden is in the Persian Gulf. There is also an expedition being undertaken in Cyprus as some folks think the two locations may be one and the same, and the location is Cyprus. It seems that when the "Gibralter Dam" broke, this caused the flooding of the Peninsula, and eventually "sank" the area in question.
What do you think? [Confused]

According to my investigation, the Eden or Paradise and Atlantis represent different stages in evolutionary history of the Humanity. The Eden represents a stage of hunter and gatherer in optimal surroundings: vegetation, animals, food of easy harvesting. It is the immediately previous phase to the stage of the food production. For that reason the new stage, where there is to work for to eat, is presented like a punishment. Also I have concluded that this change of surroundings had to a relatively abrupt climatic change. Also, according to my investigation, the region which I indicate like Atlantis was part of that lost paradise... Also, I believe that this part of the story was inherited by all the civilizations that had their root in Atlantis and from it come to us very fragmented and in many versions. The subject I will treat more in depth when we analyze the climate of the region with Eaglewind.

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Aloha EagleWind

My conclusion is that in the period that his you indicate (13000-12000), it is practically impossible that a civilization had emerged

www.esd.ornl.gov./projects/qen/NEW_MAPS/europe2.gif

and

www.esd.ornl.gov./projects/qen/NEW_MAPS/eurasia1.gif

The zone was basically steppe, and temp desert, devoid of necessary ecological resources for a development of a marine society.

In the next phase, 12000-11000, just begins to foresting itself, with the appearance of mois steppe and Temp Forest

www.esd.ornl.gov./projects/qen/NEW_MAPS/europe3.gif

but in that period already the society of Atlantis, under your theory, must have disappeared.

quote:

Summary
From around 150,000 to 130,000 years ago, Europe experienced colder and more arid than present conditions. About 130,000 years ago, a warm and relatively moist phase began, and this lasted until about 115,000 years ago. Subsequent cooling and drying of the climate led to a cold, arid maximum about 70,000 years ago, followed by a highly unstable phase with generally more moderate climates, and then a second aridity maximum around 22,000-13,000 14C years ago. Conditions then quickly became warmer and moister, and similar to the present, though with a strong cold dry event around 11,000 14C years ago.. Early Holocene conditions seem to have been slightly warmer than at present, peaking around 8,000-5,000 14C y.a. across central and northern Europe. However, there may also have been other significant temperature fluctuations, following a 1500-year ('real' years) cycle, throughout the Holocene. The strongest cold events seem to have been about 8,200 and 2,600 14C y.a. Broad scale deforestation became significant after about 4,000 14C y.a., and was most rapid around 3,500-2,000 y.a.

To the inverse one, the zone that I indicate has very different climatic conditions:

quote:
Sumary

From around 150,000 to 130,000 years ago, Africa experienced colder and more arid than present conditions. About 130,000 years ago, a warm phase moister than the present began, and this lasted until about 115,000 years ago, with greater rainforest extent and the deserts almost completely covered with vegetation. Subsequent cooling and drying of the climate led to a cold, arid maximum about 70,000 years ago, followed by a slight moderation of climate and then a second aridity maximum around 22,000-13,000 14C years ago. Conditions then quickly became warmer and moister, though with an interruption by aridity around 11,000 14C years ago. A resumption of warm, moist conditions led up to the Holocene 'optimum' of greater rainforest extent and vegetation covering the Sahara. Conditions then became somewhat more arid and similar to the present. Relatively brief arid phases (e.g. 8,200 14C y.a.) appear to punctuate the generally moister early and mid Holocene conditions.

On the other hand in the specific period that I indicate, the conditions are especially better for the development of a civilization, since he was more humid and rainy...

quote:
Last Glacial Aridity Maximum/Maxima 22-13,000 14C y.a. (about 23,000-14,500 'real' years ago). This map is based upon the reconstructions previously drawn for the Last Glacial Maximum (18,000 14C y.a.) drawn on the basis of diverse sources of evidence summarized in the main QEN review. Note that the LGM itself may have been a slightly moister phase (though still very arid) separating two extremely arid phases. The maps here are intended to represent the peak arid conditions across Africa.
Aridity, and to a lesser extent cooling, are the major features of Africa during the full glacial period. Ancient sand dune distributions suggest that the Sahara desert zone extended hundreds of kilometres further south than at present, compressing the other vegetation and climate zones equatorwards (Thorp 1994). However, in a restricted area of the north-west Sahara, greater winter rainfall seems to given moister conditions, with a belt of semi-desert appearing to the south of the present-day desert margin (Hooghiemstra et al. 1992).
There is considerable geomorphological, zoological and palaeobotanical evidence for a major rainforest retreat during this time, with its place being taken by savanna and grassland vegetation in most (but not all) areas (Maley 1988, Dupont 1988, Caratini & Giresse 1979, Giresse et al. 1990, Jahns 1995, Preuss 1992, Van neer 1984, Tamura 1990, Runge 1995). The fragmented forest areas that remained in this region contained a significant proportion of montane trees, suggesting that lowland tropical mean temperatures were around 5-6 deg.C cooler than at present (Maley 1989, Livingstone 1993).
However, the actual position and extent of forested refugial areas is still controversial due to the sparsity of evidence. (…)
There are indications from various parts of Africa (central and eastern Africa) and also Arabia that the maximum aridity may have occurred slightly after the global LGM, at around 17,000-15,000 14C years ago, although the LGM itself seems to have been generally much more arid than present (Adamson et al. 1980, Gasse 1975). Plankton indicators of upwelling intensity off the coast of Somalia suggest that the summer monsoon (which supplies much of northern, east and central Africa with its rainfall) seems to have been substantially weaker than present at the LGM, but reaching its weakest at around 15,800 - 12,500 14C years ago, that is 17,800-13,800 calibrated or 'real' years ago (Zooneveld et al. 1997).
Signs of a slight moistening of climate and temperature rise in have been noted the the pollen records of central and east Africa around 14,000 14C y.a. (Hamilton 1988). For example, montane forest began to spread in high elevation areas of east Africa around 14,000 14C years ago. (Vincens 1991, Taylor 1992). It has been suggested that the earlier change was especially noticable at high altitudes was because a temperature increase occurred before the main precipitation increase, and that the high altitude vegetation was more limited by temperature than drought (Zonneveld et al. 1997). In the Negev, moister-than-present conditions around 13,000 14C y.a. are registered by development of a palaeosoil of that age (Goodfriend & Magaritz 1988). In southern Africa, the onset of moister post-LGM conditions may have been delayed, with some indications of extensive dune activity continuing in northern Botswana, although this may be due to ambiguity in the dating of aridity which actually occurred slightly earlier, or later during the Younger Dryas (Stokes et al. 1997).

www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nercAFRICA.html

www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nercAFRICA.html

[ 05-20-2006, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Jaime Manuschevich ]

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EagleWind
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Aloha Jaime,

For easy reference, here are the conversations for radiocarbon years into calendar years.

14C years ago=>Calibrated ('real') years ago:

1,000 => 1,000. 2,000 => 2,000. 2,500 - 2,800 => 2,600 (sudden shift in atmospheric 14C content). 3,000 => 3,200. 4,000 => 4,500. 5,000 => 5,900. 6,000 => 6,950. 7,000 => 7,900. 8,000 => 8,900. 9,000 => 10,000. 10,000 => 11,200 - 12,200 ('radiocarbon plateau'). 11,000 => 12,900. 12,000 => 14,000. 13,000 => 14,500 . 15,000 => 17,000. 16,000 => 19,500. 17,000 => 21,000. 18,000 => 22,500. 20,000 => 24,500. 25,000 =>28,000. 30,000 => 35,000. 40,000 => 45,000.

Oak Ridge National Laboratory

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EagleWind
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Aloha Jaime,

Thanks for your information. I support the evidence for a civilization, in your area, as you present in your timeframe. I compliment your presentation. However, I disagree with your conclusion,

quote:
“My conclusion is that in the period that his you indicate (13000-12000), it is practically impossible that a civilization had emerged”
I am preparing a report on mammal habitations surrounding the Sea of Azov during the very late Pleistocene, for our further enjoyable contemplation.

Live in Harmony. Enjoy Life! EagleWind

[ 05-20-2006, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: EagleWind ]

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Aloha Eaglewind

An important aspect so that a civilization can be developed is the food production, in which the culture of certain germ is basic. Its culture requires specific environmental conditions and specific technologies, that according to indicate several authors, such as Gordon Childe, David Harris or Jared Diamond, occurred only in regions close the Dead Sea does something as well as 11 thousand years. So that the seed germinates, very specific conditions are required:

quote:
Today the investigator of the past does not have defined accurately which were the causes that took to the gatherer and hunter to transform himself into agriculturist. The tendency of the investigators is to indicate to several combined causes those that influenced in decisive form in this process. It is indicated, like an important agent that it can have impelled east change, the diminution of the great animals, product, in theory, of it over exploitation:

"A factor that aims like influential in the height of the animal acclimatization in the Fertile Flood was the rarefaction of the abundance of gazelles wild that previously had constituted a most important provision of meat for the hunting-gatherer of the zone". (Diamond, Jared. "Guns, Germs and Steel. Page 124.) A second ingredient that is indicated is associated to the presence of very favourable climatic conditions that "expanded much the surface of habitats of wild cereals of which immense harvests in just a short time could be obtained. These cereal harvests were the precursors of the acclimatization of the first cereal cultures, the wheat and the barley in the Fertile Flood "(Diamond, Jared. Opus. Cit. Page 124). Also, according to the investigators, a third factor "that inclines the balance against the hunt-harvesting was the evolution of technologies in which the nourishing production was going to lean: wild food harvesting, processing and storage... The necessary methods, tools and facilities appeared quickly in the Fertile Flood ". (Diamond, Jared. Ibid. Page 124.)

Original agriculture was sustained in grains, according to indicates Childe to us: "the historical civilizations of the river basin of the Mediterranean, the Near East and India were built on cereals". (Childe, Gordon. Ibid. Page 87). Grain both essential they were the wheat and the barley. But the original grains are not those that today we know; but wild species that were modified to the being manipulated by the man. "two wild grasses know itself that is ancestors of the wheat: buckwheat and speltwheat wild. Both grow in mountainous countries, first in the Balkan Mountains, Crimea, Asia Minor and the Caucasus; second more to the south, in Palestine and perhaps in Persia "(Childe, Gordon. Ibid. Page 87).

Also the wild ancestors of the barley are mountain grass: "they have been in Marmarica, in North Africa, just like in Palestine, Asia Minor, Transcaucasia, Persia, Afghanistan, and Turquestán", (Childe, Gordon. Ibid. Page 88), although of course, "the present distribution can be deceptive; the climate has changed much from the time that began the culture ". Childe, Gordon. Ibid. Page 87. (Atlantis: The deciphered myth. J Manuschevich)

And so that it happens it is necessary that very specific conditions exist:

quote:
Finally, the most definitive test to deny this hypothesis, according to our line of thought, is same science: the evolution of the seed was impossible in the lacustrine plains or coast in drying, such as Konia or the Black Sea, since this mutation "is a phenomenon that occurs from certain altitudes. Once obtained, the species genetically modified could migrate to the margins of lakes or fluvial plains, to altitudes next to the sea ". (Ryan, William, and Pitman, Walter. Ibid. page 227)

This takes to the other migratory theory - hypothesis to us sustained by Harris- that raises that this town during this period "would have descended again to the coastal plain and even until the Jordan Valley " (Ryan, William, and Pitman, Walter. Ibid. Page 227) and that "under the pressure of the dryness, the primitive wheat had evolved by natural selection until the production of small seeds". (Ryan, William, and Pitman, Walter. Ibid. Page 227) ("Atlantis: The deciphered myth" J. Manuschevich, Page 88)

Pardon by my translations to the English if these are not optimal.

--------------------
Jaime Manuschevich

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atalante
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Y Chromosome data suggests that haplogroup E-M123 (M34) formed near Israel at approximately 15,800 BP.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v74n5/40867/fg1.h.jpg

[ 05-20-2006, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: atalante ]

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Jaime Manuschevich
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quote:
Originally posted by atalante:
Y Chromosome data suggests that haplogroup E-M123 (M34) formed near Israel at approximately 15,800 BP.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v74n5/40867/fg1.h.jpg

Atalante:
You have made a great contribution to this debate and to my theory, because although, in my book I demonstrate by a set of tests the origin and expansion of this civilization, this contribution ratifies it from the genetics, that is a test impossible to refute. I only must ratify some data to maintain more than the genetic mark of the descendants of Atlantis is haplogroup E-M123 (M34). I add two key notes in relation to the subject.

quote:
GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives
Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-03 > 1142055407
From: "grandcross" <grandcross@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Haplogroup E
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 23:36:47 -0600
References: <000001c644ba$8971cbe0$c2abe804@DW>
In responding to Marilyn, David Wilson wrote:
In the shorthand notation system, you would be E-M34. M34 marks a subhaplogroup of E-M123. E-M123 used to be called E3b3, but now it should be known as E3b1c. The fact that you have a positive subclade (M34) means that you are dealing with haplogroup E3b1c1.
Here's a link to a good article on Haplogroup E:
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/hape3b.pdf
Here's another one:
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034.pdf
The first paper (author: Cruciani) is better for your purposes because it specifically includes reports of M34 results, but both papers are good.
Just remember that Semino (author of second paper) does not know about M34. So in her paper you need to read about M123, which includes M34.
The data table in Cruciani shows that M34 is a distributed haplogroup found in Africa (Ethiopia), Anatolia and the Middle East (Turkey and Arabian Gulf states), and Europe (Southern Italy, Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica). It is also found occasionally among Iberians, Basques and Northern Italians.
In Cruciani's data table you need to read the M34 column. In Semino's data table you need to look at the M123 column. The reported distributions are roughly similar, though percentages differ for some locales.
I feel Marilyn's pain.
According to EA I am E3b (M78+) and reading Cruciani's paper referenced above, it would appear that another way to describe this sub clade would be E3b1a. Because my SNP was not determined by FTDNA, however, I cannot list my status as other than E3b on the E3b project page, and that entry must be displayed in "red", rather than "green". As I was informed, "Red is when we predict, Green is when we test."
At the same time, FTDNA offers a deep clade test for E3b1a, but the defining SNP appears to be none of the above. It is instead M148. I think I am right in saying that a finding M148 tests "ancestral" (that is, negative) confirms E3b1a, according to FTDNA, but I could very well be in error about that. I have asked EA if they tested for M148 on three separate occasions and have not gotten a direct response. My suspicion is that they did not because, just as in the case you mention of Semino and M34, EA didn't know about M148 when my test was performed. It was never listed in the SNP's the company promised to search for.
So I am left to describe myself as E3b (M78+) which is all well and good, except Cruciani would say E3b1a (unless, of course, he has now been made aware of M148 and thinks otherwise), while FTDNA will only "predict" E3b, unless I have them test for M148. Is that about right?
Yes, I know, none of this really matters all that much, but it does begin to sound like an Abbott and Costello routine.
Third base.
This thread:
Haplogroup E by GNEOLOG@aol.com
Re: [DNA] Haplogroup E by "David Wilson" <dclwilson@earthlink.net>
Re: [DNA] Haplogroup E by "grandcross" <grandcross@swbell.net>

About Greek people
quote:

Greek Y-chromosomes
by Dienekes Pontikos
Last Update: 26 December, 2005
The most comprehensive study of Y-chromosomal diversity in Europe thus far is Rosser et al., [1]. The human Y chromosome is passed on from father to son. One can thus study one half of a population's ancestry (along the paternal line) by studying the Y-chromosome. Greek Y-chromosomes belong to haplogroups HG1, HG2, HG3, HG9, HG21 and HG26. None of the 35 Greek Y chromosomes are of non-Caucasoid origin.
A second Y-chromosome study including Greeks have also shown similar results. Helgason et al., [2] reports one HG16 sequence of North Eurasian provenance in a sample of 42 Greeks (at least 97.6% Caucasoid). To put this in perspective, eight HG16 chromosomes occur in 110 Swedes (at least 92.7% Caucasoid) and three HG16 sequences in 112 Norwegians (at least 97.3% Caucasoid) were also found. HG16 is shared by many populations ranging from Europe to Mongolia. Its origin has been placed by [7] in the Eastern range of its current geographical distribution.

A third Y-chromosome study, by Malaspina et al., [3] which included a sample of 28 continental and 83 Cretan Greeks (total sample size of 111) found no evidence of the presence of non-Caucasoid Y chromosomes in Greeks.

A fourth Y-chromosome study, by Semino et al., [4] included 76 Greeks and 20 Macedonian Greeks. One Eu6 lineage, corresponding to HG10/HG36 [5] is probably of East Asian origin. One Eu17 lineage corresponds to HG 28 which is frequent in Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent [6]. In total, admixture of 2.1% is detected (if we label HG 28 as non-Caucasoid).

A fifth Y-chromosome study, by Weale et al., [8] included 132 Greek students from Athens. The same haplogroups found in [1] were detected in this study. No non-Caucasoid chromosomes were found.

The most recent and comprehensive study of Greek Y-chromosomes, by Di Giacomo et al., [9] included 154 individuals from continental Greece and 212 from Crete, Lesvos and Chios. In total, Greeks from thirteen separate locations were examined, thus giving the most complete picture of variation so far. A single haplogroup A chromosome was found (in Lesvos) which is usually found in Africa. The remainder belonged to haplogroups found in Caucasoid populations. The breakup (in percent) of the haplogroups observed) based on the set of markers typed is as follows.

E3b1 E3b3 G I J2 K*(xP) R1a1 R1b
17.1 2.4 4.9 19.5 19.5 2.4 22.0 12.2

A newer study by Semino et al. [10] has studied two samples of Greeks of size 84 and 59 (Macedonian Greeks). The focus was on two specific haplogroups E and J which are frequent in the Mediterranean region and can be used to detect population movements between Europe, Africa and the Near East. 2.4% of Greeks belong in haplogroup E-M123 and 21.4% in E-M78. Clades of E prevalent in Northern or Sub-Saharan Africa were not found. According to Cruciani et al. [11] most Greeks and other Balkan people belong to a specific cluster a within haplogroup E-M78 that is found in lower frequencies outside the Balkans and marks migrations from the Balkan area. E-M123 and its daughter haplogroup E-M34 originated in the Near East in prehistoric times. As for haplogroup J, most Greeks (22.8% Greeks/14.3% Macedonian Greeks) belong to J-M172 and its subclades which is associated with Neolithic population movements. Only 1.8%/2.2% of Macedonian Greeks/Greeks belonged to haplogroup J-M267 which could potentially (althought not certainly) reflect more recent Near Eastern admixture.

Bosch et al. [14] studied Y chromosome variation in the Balkans, including a sample of 41 Greeks. Greeks belonged to the major Caucasoid haplogroups. The identity of the K*(xP) chromosomes is not clear, but they could belong to the minor Caucasoid haplogroups K2 and L which have been previously observed in Greeks, or to other K-related lineages.

Thus, at present, in a total of seven studies, in which 966 Greek males were tested, one HG16, one HG28, one HG10/HG36, and one haplogroup A chromosomes have been found, for a total of 0.4% possible non-Caucasoid contribution to the modern Greek male gene pool. Additionally, the latest studies [9, 10] with a more refined version of the Y chromosome phylogeny indicate that influences from the Near East and North Africa in historical times are unlikely (perhaps in the order of ~2%). Additionally, Y chromosome haplogroup R1a which is very frequent in Slavic populations (>50%) is found in only around 9.8% of Greeks, and is also found at comparable frequencies further East (10.8% in Iraq; Al-Zahery et al. [12]) indicating that its presence in Greece need not be associated with medieval intrusions by Slavic speakers. The emerging picture of Y chromosome variation in Greece indicates genetic continuity, with slight influences from neighboring Caucasoid regions and virtually no influence from non-Caucasoids.

Flores et al. [13] have compiled haplogroup and sub-haplogroup data from three of the afore-mentioned studies which included Greek samples [4, 9, 10]. The total sample size of this meta-analysis is 442. An error has resulted in the false inclusion of 0.2% frequency of haplogroup B which was not reported in the original sources (A.M. González, personal communication). The table of haplogroup frequencies reported in [13] is given below:

A C E3b3 E3b1 F*(xG,H,I,J,K) G I J1 J2 K2 L R1*(xR1a1) R1a1
0.2 1.3 2.0 18.6 3.4 5.9 13.6 2.5 24.5 1.1 1.1 15.4 10.2

Future studies with larger samples and more detailed founder analyses will allow us to obtain a better pictures of Y-chromosome variation in Greece, Europe and the world at large. At present, it appears that modern Europeans share many of the haplogroups, while there is also geographic structure in the distribution. With the exception of the Northeast corner of Europe, all other European populations have very small traces of extra-Caucasoid genetic input(a).

References

Rosser et al. (2000) European Y-Chromosome Diversity. Am J Hum Genet 67:1526-1543
Helgason et al. (2000) Ancestry of Icelandic Y Chromosomes. Am J Hum Genet 67:697-717
Malaspina et al. (2000) Patterns of male-specific inter-population divergence in Europe, West Asia and North Africa. Ann Hum Genet 64:395-412
Semino et al. (2000) The genetic legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective
Zerjal et al. (2002) Y-Chromosomal Insights into Central Asia. Am J Hum Genet 71:466-482
Qamar et al. (2002) Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in Pakistan. Am J Hum Genet 70:1107-1124
Zerjal et al. (1997) Genetic relationships of Asians and Northern Europeans, revealed by Y-chromosomal DNA analysis. Am J Hum Genet 60:11741183
Weale et al. (2001) Armenian Y chromosome haplotypes reveal strong regional structure within a single ethno-national group. Hum Genet 109: 659-674
Di Giacomo et al. (2003) Clinal Patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects. Mol Phyl Evol 28:387-395



--------------------
Jaime Manuschevich

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