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Author Topic: [R]..Tribes of Atlantis III ..[R]
sevens
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Hi wireless

No I have not detected them and I don't know whether scientist have either, Im not sure. The answer lays within the electron.

I'm only using the Urantia information as a lead of thought that could direct scientist to a great discovery, I feel if the book is correct in the ancient place I feel its correct in other knowledge. What I'm saying to scientists is just a have a look, perhaps look deeper into the electron or find some formula based on the UB info to prove its existence.

I'm just putting up my thoughts in relation to the ultimaton in the UB based on faith.

About the definition of the ultimaton I put that up also in the rapture thread based on the UB description. Thats all I can go on but from memory I think there was some UB researcher who made some interesting finds.

I have to look it up.

All the stuff that I post about the ultimaton has to be seeked out and research by all scientist involved in physics.

But I'm sure its where our answer lays.

The reason I posted the ultimatonic info recently was from an interview I heard whilst driving down from Queensland about nuclear waste and problems they have getting rid of the stuff. Then it came/occurred to me about the redial spin of the ultimaton and its effect on matter. Then I was inspired to seek the UB out further on the ultimaton. Then as I explored the UB I found my initial thought confirmed and got more excited about the prospect of ultimatonic spin as the answer to our problems relating to our nuclear waste matter.

That's all it is bro

Me going through the book and paralleling as many things as I can find including my within myself thoughts and posting it up. Its all part of this grand journey in my view.

No one has believe anything I post and that is ok and I dont care for any following as that is a disaster for man from what I see in many cases... But if I have to go out there some how I will if thats the will of the Father.. no worries at all, however reluctant I feel about that prospect.

But from what I see there are many changes to occur and all I'm doing is speaking my thoughts in accordance to my journey within all the books of religion in harmonization with science no matter what it is.

All the best
Sevens

[ 01-29-2008, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: sevens ]

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wirelessguru1
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OK, thank you for the clarification. For a second there I thought that you had detected them... [Smile]

BTW, particle physics is searching primarily for the "god" particle right now! Maybe they will find the "ultimaton" instead!!!

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2002/08/54507

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sevens
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No worries mate...

quote:
Hi sevens, maybe "Uptoia on earth" just cannot be executed! Definitely not under a debt-based fiat money system!!!
You are completely right, the debt based system is a complete failure and will evolve this society to the Utopian worlds.

We see the effects on man.

Food, housing and land should not be debt based but perhaps land should be under some custodianship of a family for there enter generations which cannot be sold off in anyway but maybe swapped. Maybe every family unit should be allotted parcels of land free but in a controlled orderly fashion so a family never looses its existence and reduces homelessness and strengthens the family. Maybe the land allotted to families can be a descent parcel of land like 50 hectares or something like and have a family house provided and all the free energy devices and grow houses to grow there own food and be more responsible for there own food and water cleanliness. Maybe perhaps but just some thoughts.

Perhaps the younger when they leave home they have a place to stay in Single Hostels specially provided so that they are not homeless and are helped in community project of real worth to the individual. Maybe the system instead of profit motivation any access goes into old age pensions to provide for a good and comfortable life in their last days. Perhaps Tax on the individual could be reduced to 6% with no other taxes at all as all families will be self sufficient in may ways will not rely on this all absorbing, overbearing infrastructure.

People will have more time for their families and will have all the essentials without a huge cost except for upkeep of infrastructure and can be intra independent from this monolith system we have bearing its will on us all, always "Where's the money". Man would have more time to be creative and would be able explore more personal pursuits and study. Man would have the ability to do things without being stuck in a System Rut of work to pay debt to some guy who give a crapper for you.

But the current Babylon system does not and will not provide for all inhabitants because the dispersal of access only goes into the coffers of a few and is controlled by such for their own purpose of rule and is used to allure man through the devices of power, and Ego the strong Nodite propensity we all have.

Your right wireless, we cannot reach the utopia worlds with the current debt based system, it has destroyed many nations and its people like we see in Africa and a few other places.

The cost of servicing debt is too high for man in the compound interest formula and is just a plain out and out RIPPOFF! ahahah! and including the cost of things which for each man to service this almighty cost of things has a real devastating effect on his life. Then he thinks how can I make it smooth and easy on myself so I can do the things I want to.

OOh!! III use man for man for that and III entrap him through his own desires of material things and ego power! unsuspectingly! like the sub prime event that is simply devastating!!. Pure capitalization of unsuspecting people guided by false people who run the Babylon system. Just greediness and pure selfishness and yet they get away with it. Because the Babylon system is them.

Just another kick in the guts for mankind and watch him bleed and whose doing anything?? Nothing, no one.

How about regarding the real victims of the sub prime where its their family home at risk have their loans taken over where the interest is reduced and set to a fix interest level. I mean the Bank gives pitiful and hopeless fix interest on savings accounts and then borrow your money out on a compounding factor, the hypocrisy and example of greed. Why cant they introduce a fixed interest rate for all on all things and lighten the burden on mankind.

Sevens

[ 01-29-2008, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: sevens ]

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sevens
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Hey wireless

Thats cool and very intriguing. I hope they find the God aspect of the Electron and if they discover the ultimaton. Fantastic, that would be the way to a new future.

Gee bro

I just read the article
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2002/08/54507


quote:
And the payoff for whoever discovers the Higgs boson? Nothing less than a Nobel Prize. "Its discovery would be one of the crowning achievements of modern science, and validate decades of intense research," says John Conway, a professor at Rutgers University.

"We believe that the Higgs is the key to unlocking the mystery of the elementary particles: the quarks and the leptons. The standard model does not give us the answers to many questions: Why are there three 'generations' of matter particles? Why do they have the masses and electric charges that they do? The Higgs is believed to be related to the mechanism by which the matter particles get their mass, but there is no good theory yet as to why different particles have different masses.

quote:
Why are there three 'generations' of matter particles?
Like the 3 layers of the ultimatonic huddle within an electron and the full electron system whirling around an Atom.

If they discover this for real then that in itself will change many things for this planet.

That was a great post wireless, I enjoyed that very much, that and to me shows that our ultimatonic conversation is in parallel with the current direction of science and perhaps we may know the outcome in the beforehand through the UB. Lets see the results. If they discover that YEA! No wonder they are scrambling to find the answer,. They are detecting something and perhaps we are uncovering it in the spiritual level of the discovery. Remembering that this new energy has another component in its formula and that is the direction of the Sub absolute which is the Sevenfold spiritual component which is representative and is at the Paradise centre of the ultimaton huddle. Its that part that maybe reserved for the new world that has the right attitude. See what happens eh!

God being in all things!! for sure YEA!

Sevens

[ 01-29-2008, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: sevens ]

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wirelessguru1
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Hi sevens, my views on all of this are much more from an EM energy matrix point of view since I don't believe in "particles" to start with... [Smile]

Please note however that I am not denying "particle behaviour" which to me is just a standing wave due to ceratin forces. But, I also admit openly here that I do not know what is actually "vibrating"! As such, I do respect the work that the particle physicists are doing...on their search... [Smile]

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sevens
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For sure Wireless.

We all have our thoughts and views no worries the main thing is that we are friends.

All the best to those physicists, I pray great breakthroughs for them and there research hopefully that will prove many things.


All the best
Sevens

[ 01-29-2008, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: sevens ]

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Riven
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Timaeus,written circa 360.bC and preserved by Plato.

Socrates
Timaeus of Locris,Italy
Hermocrates
Critias II

Socrates;

"Now I, Critias and Hermocrates, am conscious that I myself should never be able to celebrate the city and her citizens in a befitting manner, and I am not surprised at my own incapacity; to me the wonder is rather that the poets present as well as past are no better-not that I mean to depreciate them; but every one can see that they are a tribe of imitators, and will imitate best and most easily the life in which they have been brought up; while that which is beyond the range of a man's education he finds hard to carry out in action, and still harder adequately to represent in language. I am aware that the Sophists have plenty of brave words and fair conceits, but I am afraid that being only wanderers from one city to another, and having never had habitations of their own, they may fail in their conception of philosophers and statesmen, and may not know what they do and say in time of war, when they are fighting or holding parley with their enemies. And thus people of your class are the only ones remaining who are fitted by nature and education to take part at once both in politics and philosophy."...

... "Here is Timaeus, of Locris in Italy, a city which has admirable laws, and who is himself in wealth and rank the equal of any of his fellow-citizens; he has held the most important and honourable offices in his own state, and, as I believe, has scaled the heights of all philosophy; and here is Critias, whom every Athenian knows to be no novice in the matters of which we are speaking; and as to, Hermocrates, I am assured by many witnesses that his genius and education qualify him to take part in any speculation of the kind."


Hermocrates;

"And we too, Socrates, as Timaeus says, will not be wanting in enthusiasm; and there is no excuse for not complying with your request. As soon as we arrived yesterday at the guest-chamber of Critias, with whom we are staying, or rather on our way thither, we talked the matter over, and he told us an ancient tradition, which I wish, Critias, that you would repeat to Socrates, so that he may help us to judge whether it will satisfy his requirements or not."

Critias.

"Then listen, Socrates, to a tale which, though strange, is certainly true, having been attested by Solon, who was the wisest of the seven sages. He was a relative and a dear friend of my great-grandfather, Dropides, as he himself says in many passages of his poems; and he told the story to Critias, my grandfather, who remembered and repeated it to us. There were of old, he said, great and marvellous actions of the Athenian city, which have passed into oblivion through lapse of time and the destruction of mankind, and one in particular, greater than all the rest. This we will now rehearse. It will be a fitting monument of our gratitude to you, and a hymn of praise true and worthy of the goddess, on this her day of festival."

Socrates.

"Very good. And what is this ancient famous action of the Athenians, which Critias declared, on the authority of Solon, to be not a mere legend, but an actual fact?"


Critias.

"I will tell an old-world story which I heard from an aged man; for Critias, at the time of telling it, was as he said, nearly ninety years of age, and I was about ten. Now the day was that day of the Apaturia which is called the Registration of Youth, at which, according to custom, our parents gave prizes for recitations, and the poems of several poets were recited by us boys, and many of us sang the poems of Solon, which at that time had not gone out of fashion. One of our tribe, either because he thought so or to please Critias, said that in his judgment Solon was not only the wisest of men, but also the noblest of poets. The old man, as I very well remember, brightened up at hearing this and said, smiling: Yes, Amynander, if Solon had only, like other poets, made poetry the business of his life, and had completed the tale which he brought with him from Egypt, and had not been compelled, by reason of the factions and troubles which he found stirring in his own country when he came home, to attend to other matters, in my opinion he would have been as famous as Homer or Hesiod, or any poet."

Egyptian Priest;

"As for those genealogies of yours which you just now recounted to us, Solon, they are no better than the tales of children. In the first place you remember a single deluge only, but there were many previous ones..."

(single deluge is the flood of Deukalion-Riv.)

..."For there was a time, Solon, before the great deluge of all, when the city which now is Athens was first in war and in every way the best governed of all cities, is said to have performed the noblest deeds and to have had the fairest constitution of any of which tradition tells, under the face of heaven."

..."the exact particulars of the whole we will hereafter go through at our leisure in the sacred registers themselves."


Sacred Registers is the Temple of Neith which also mysteriously disappeared like the Library of Alexandria also did.-Riv.

Socrates admits that neither himself or the wisest of ancient greek poets,sic homer and hesiod, could not account for a legend of greatness other than the battle of troy as we understand today.

Socrates also admits the great intelligence of Timaeus,Hermocrates and Critias as on a par with the best scholars of state.

Clearly,as many people tend to forget,sic docyabut and Georgeos, the battle of Atlantis was BEFORE the Greatest flood(Deukalion), where in the following dialogue of Critias it is stated as the "Third Flood BEFORE the Greatest(Deukalion).

Critias also stated that the Atlanteans rose up against Europe and Asia,whereas the only Pharaoh to have done this was Sesostris ca 1862.bC that I am aware of.

Clearly these little bits of info confirm to us the provenance of Solon's truth that was preserved by Plato.

Paulo Riven.
AeJor Mn
Sword of Avila
Ascender of The Son
Slayer of The Obsidian Dragon(Satan)
Sealer of Revelations
Opener of The Ways
King of The Double Falcons

2:32 AM 2/6/2008
8490 AJA > AEJON MN.

Son of God The Father Creator

.111.

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docyabut
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Riven, I agree this war of the gods and their alotment of the lands started before Deucalion flood.


Deucalion's flood may be dated in the chronology of Saint Jerome to ca. 1460 BC.


Cecrops I 1556 - 1506 BC.
Cranaus 1506 - 1497 BC.
Amphictyon 1497 - 1487 BC.
Erichthonius 1487 - 1437 BC.
Pandion I 1437 - 1397 BC.
Erechtheus 1397 - 1347 BC.
Cecrops II 1347 - 1307 BC.
Pandion II 1307 - 1282 BC.
Aegeus 1282 - 1234 BC.
Theseus 1234 - 1204 BC. (or 1213 BC).


However Critias goes on to say during that 9000 year period, there were many more floods that wash Athen `s`soil away.

Many great deluges have taken place during the nine thousand years, for that is the number of years which have elapsed since the time of which I am speaking; and during all this time and through so many changes, there has never been any considerable accumulation of the soil coming down from the mountains, as in other places, but the earth has fallen away all round and sunk out of sight. The consequence is, that in comparison of what then was, there are remaining only the bones of the wasted body, as they may be called, as in the case of small islands, all the richer and softer parts of the soil having fallen away, and the mere skeleton of the land being left.


I feel he is speaking of the 9000 years that this city of Atlantis also existed before being wash away.

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Riven
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docyabut;

The Egyptian Priest ca 570.bC stated that the Athenians had preserved the legend of Atlantis, but had forgotten due to lapses of time and destructions of which many occured.

The Egyptian Priest also stated that the Egyptians of the Delta Nile and the Athenians were related,although he uses the term "somehow related" and pointed out that Athena and Neith are the same goddesses worshipped by the Greeks and Egyptians.

He also stated that Athens (Attica) was founded 1000 years before Sais, whereas Sais goes back to around Pharaoh Menes and 3200.bC which would put the earliest founding of Attica around 4200.bC.

Another factor spoken by the Egyptian Priest is that what ever happened in Egypt or Greece was recorded and preserved in the temples of Egypt for the past 8000.years prior 570.bC.

We also understand that the Pelasgians (earliest greeks)were around since 6000.bC and mining obsidian as we have discussed.

The text is clear in stating that the battle of Atlantis and her disappearance was...

.........BEFORE DEUKALION'S FLOOD.

There seems to be a problem here because in my view this flood can be only one of three floods and I always stated that the Flood of Deukalion could not have happened ca 1450.bC when it is the same flood story as Gilgamesh and The Holy Bible.

Perhaps because there was a ruler named Deukalion in memory of the 10 kings ca 1450.bC that scholars "erroneously" placed this flood to that man. To further verify, we understand that Deukalion clearly means "10 Kings", so it is also easier to understand that perhaps scholars have the wrong Deukalion king.

Around that time the most critical event would have been just prior to the Santorini,Thera event ca 1625.bC, but Biblical scholars place their flood ca 2350.bC and Gilgamesh is also around the same era.

It is clear that Deukalion,Gilgamesh and The Holy Bible ALL SPEAK OF the SAME FLOOD.

They all built an ark and the "then known" world of Asia,Libya and Europe was wiped out and they all preserved themselves to survive the flood.

I highly doubt that this would have been the Santorini,Thera event ca 1625.bC.

So we should be looking at a much older date where in my opinion only two merit such a catastrophy.

The Flood of Hathor ca 3250.bC and my flood ca 6482.bC which is only 8.7 years different than the Holy Bible and also at the time when the Bosphorous Straites burst open and flooded the Euxine Sea.

Naturaly,to form the Euxine Sea,this must have been the greatest of all known floods,although the Greeks could only remember the Deukalion Flood and the Flood of Ogyges which is also apparently before Deukalion.

In my view, the Flood of Deukalion is much older than anticipated.

Then again,why would the Greeks name a king Deukalion in exact comparison of the 10 Kings of Atlantis?

Because as the Egyptian Priest said, they had preserved the legend but forgot it's true account.

Further to your Tartessos theory, I see only two reasons why it disappeared ca 800.bC-600.bC.

It was wiped out by an Atlantic Tsunami or it was wiped out by the Phoenicians.

After all,they were in Cadiz,Spain ca 1000.bC.

The other clear factor is that The Temple of Neith and The Library of Alexandria was also wiped out to further cover up our TRUTHS.

So they thought. [Roll Eyes]

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docyabut
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Riven, Iberia has Mycenaeans artifacts,even the lady of Lady of Elx is said to be of Mycenaean origin and yet the greeks only just rediscovered Tartesso in 600 bc ?

Sure the greeks lost some of their history in the dark ages in writing.

The story of atlantis is clearly of a long period of time when there were no boats, generations after generations, until it became a great harbor.

qoute-It is clear that Deukalion,Gilgamesh and The Holy Bible ALL SPEAK OF the SAME FLOOD.


True, but Atlantis`s end is of many earth quakes and floods, not of just one flood.

In like manner does`t mean at the same time. [Smile]

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docyabut
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Critias

Many great deluges have taken place during the nine thousand years, for that is the number of years which have elapsed since the time of which I am speaking; and during all this time and through so many changes.

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docyabut
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qoute-The Egyptian Priest ca 570.bC stated that the Athenians had preserved the legend of Atlantis, but had forgotten due to lapses of time and destructions of which many occured.

You said it yourself: [Smile] [Smile]

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Riven
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docyabut;

The fact still remains that Atlantis was submerged and the warriors lost BEFORE the flood of Deukalion.

This is in context with Timaeaus and Critias.

Even though they spoke of other events such as the Erychthonios kings or the founding of Athens.

Another big problem is that the Critias distracts from the Timaeus and I also revealed the hidden boustrephodon message of the 10 kings and 3 founders of Atlantis in the Critias dialogue.

Where we learned of the betrayal by King Dionysios of Europe to the EAST.

We also learned that if such a possibility exists that the main King of Atlantis was in fact MNESEUS and not a mountain named ATLAS.

This could also contrast with the fact that Pharaoh MENES who ruled the Egyptian Delta could have been MNESEUS that also ruled the MNOANS.

After all he too mysteriously disappeared like the Temple of Neith.

This also puts more focus on Tahla and Al Mansurah where our beautiful monolithic lion is preserved,miraculously.

For me,that is our modern day Atlantis city,as we also know their was more than just one Atlantean city.

Just like the Atlantean Pyramids and Lion Sphinxes.

As stated,the Critias dialogue is newer and quite intriguing to resemble Egypt's delta nile and the temple of karnak on a parley.

Then again,Socrates admitted that the very best of Greek philosophers,artists and poets were great imitators.

Like our Politicians.

he he.

[ 02-07-2008, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: Riven ]

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.111.[R].Riven The Seer and Royal Bloodline to Atlantis.[R].111.

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Riven
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We are also very fortunate that I found the broken "key" to Atlantis.

Our Greek Cycladic Map from 2850.bC on display in a Greek Museum visible in my website.

http://www.members.shaw.ca/aejormn

But alas,that is an older nesos.

In Tanzania.

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.111.[R].Riven The Seer and Royal Bloodline to Atlantis.[R].111.

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sevens
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Hate to spoil your fun Riven ahahaha

quote:
We are also very fortunate that I found the broken "key" to Atlantis.
What was that "I" ahahahahahahahahahah

No you haven't, I have found Atlantis ahahahahahahahahahah.

Well at least one of the temples! and I know how I can prove it to!! ahahahahahahahahaha! leaning back laughing all the way!


sevens

[ 02-07-2008, 03:12 AM: Message edited by: sevens ]

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wirelessguru1
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Well, and I found out that Atlantis Rose today... [Smile]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h1W8dcUP9H70AmlSfDSenPteDT9gD8ULOOD00

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Riven
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Read the script Sevens.

The Atlanteans were said by Critias II,to have launched an attack against Europe and ASIA.

The Persians never controlled Europe.

Dilmun,like Indonesia,are a part of Asia.

Also,we have evidence that ca 570.bC and through to Plato's time of 360.bC,that the wisest of scholars already knew the proper names for the Oceans such as the older name for the Indian(Erythranaen) Ocean and the Euxine sea or Black Sea.

Many people jump out of context with the Timaeus and Critias for lack of proper understanding or knowledge of the script or the wisdom of our ancestral scholars.

The scripts of Timaeus and Critias are not a long read.

Click on Plato's Truth for enlightenment.

http://www.members.shaw.ca/aejormn

Before The Flood of Deukalion.

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sevens
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ahahahah wireless, rolling for the future.

Riven, Script? Nah just truth. I wouldn't be to sure on what anyone thinks these days unless they can demonstrate.

In and around Persia is where all the secrets and mysteries lay as confirmed by King Jesus! I just found this out! In 300AD it was seen.

And this Blue eyes, relate to the Adamic gene!

http://www.livescience.com/health/080131-blue-eyes.html

sevens

[ 02-08-2008, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: sevens ]

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Dear SEVENS,

Strange but I thought that my cat had Blue-Eyes or Yellow irish actually I have got 3 Cats but never payed attention to the colour of their Eyes. Sorry for the large Sub-Script but my Eyes aren't getting any better [Frown]

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*Forgotten PIT-FALLS
1)EgyptwasATLANTIS(1155-855bc)=ATHE-Midland<Medan=Myrinapolis
2)Athe-Batina/Bissara=assyrianVIEF,Maa/Sheba in Yemen+Djibut
3)OCEAN=AUSSEE=SINus/Red-Sea=originally,Sea<MidLand-also,JORDAN
4)Cuba's Atlant-is a modern-Fib


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Sevens we want to see evidence of this temple. Then you will have to determine whether its Atlantean or some other swallowed civilizations temple. I suspect the oceans and seas cover a number of ancient civilizations.
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Brig
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BTW I have a couple of old books on Atlantis that I need to get rid of. I'm cleaning out my library so I'll have a place to file my new books. I'll be disposing of a few hundred and I hate to toss them. Of course they are on numerous subjects. But these two are Atlantis Discovered by Lewis Spence 1974 and Atlantis by Ferro and Grumley 1970. Free for the asking, just need to know where to send them. [Wink]
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Riven
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hope you're all having good summer fun-Riven
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[Smile] Don't forget your atlantean coconut oil!

[ 07-18-2008, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: Riven ]

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wirelessguru1
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WOW! Riven is back... [Cool]
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yeah he's back.

sevens

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atalante
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Welcome back, Riven.
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Riven
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Thanks Atalante.

I was just thinking about the Egyptian priest claiming that Egypt recorded 8000 years of history prior to his time of 570.bC.

That statement denounces those who claim that 9000 years should have been 900 years.

If it was meant to be 800 years,that would mean the egyptians only recorded upto 1370.bC.

As we can see, the latter statement is totally absurd when they knew about Menes from 3250.bC and the Palermo stone or Karnak for example.

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Riven
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[Smile]

[ 08-08-2008, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: Riven ]

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Riven
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[Eek!]

[ 08-08-2008, 01:40 AM: Message edited by: Riven ]

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Riven can you please fix your avatar image!? [Smile]
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atalante
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Riven,

I have been polishing my translations of the controversial portions of Plato's Atlantis story. I now have about 11 sections done. I use the Liddle and Scott lexicon from the Perseus-Tufts webpage. One of my controversial passages deals with that 8000/9000 years issue.


1. translation 1st part of Timaeus 24e (HAw-nbwt = exothen, and using participles) to Blue Hue on July 22, 2008, in "the Location of Atlantis".

1.a. isles of the blest -- vs. Timaeus 24e


2. 24e 2nd part: heracles crosses the Oceanos -- cf Theogony 287

3. 25c, 108d, & amazing true tales in Plato

4. 108e first sentence (posted to Atlantis Online)
[ critias 108e --- the 1009 or 9000 years ]


5. Critias 111e/112a deterioration of soil at the Acropolis of Athens
(shortened and preliminary Critias 111e - 112a)

5.a. Critias 111e/112a deterioration of soil at the Acropolis of Athens
(shortened and preliminary Critias 111e - 112a)

5.b Timaeus 23 b,c (discussed to Docyabut, July 16, 2008, in "The War of Atlantis". Proto-Athens was powerful before "the destruction of Deucalion". Thus Plato wants the war between Athens and Atlantis to take place before "the Deucalion destruction" weakened Attica/Athens.


6. Critias 114a, b -- the first Atlantean twins, Atlas and Eumelus


7. (Critias 114c) improved translation of "arcontes"

8. Critias 117e a radically different memory of region outside the city.
Plutarch mirrors Critias 117e and 118a

9. Critias 118a --the isolated part of Atlantis -- a river delta near Cadiz/Gadeira

10. critias 118c,d the modified plain became quadrangular (not rectangular), to Georgeos, on Jun 28, 2008 in topic "plain of Atlantis was not a rectangle".

11. critias 119a = 6 lots

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atalante
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I believe a meticulous translation of Plato can be accomplished by sorting out the subtle usages for the various parts of speech in this passage. In particular, "subjunctive mood" should be analyzed carefully in 108e.

Previously (in Tim 20c,d and in 25d,e-26a), Plato has told his readers that Critias asked Hermocrates and Timaeus to help him organize the Atlantis story before presenting the story to Socrates. Consequently 108e begins by commenting that "we" (plural) have assembled the Atlantis story from data that has been refreshed (recalled to memory).

Here is a translation which embodies (and/or vindicates) the Perseus-Tufts lexicon, and its Word Study Tool.


[108e] From all prior (efforts) .......................(pantŰn dÍ prŰton)
we should have recalled-to-memory (*1)...... (mnÍsthŰmen) [SUBJUNCTIVE mood, 1st pers pl, active voice, aorist tense]
anything for which ................................... (hoti [in accusative singular case, various genders ] )
the gist [i.e. either the "main-point" or "sum"] ...(to kephalaion, [in nominative singular case, neuter gender] )
shows that: (*2) ..............( emÍnuthÍ [repositioned here; passive 3rd sing, used with a participle & accusative])
1) there were..(Ín [this is 3rd person sing. or plur., imperfect indicative active, for the substantive verb "eimi"])
9000 or 1009 years", (*3) .......................... ( __ etÍ, [in nom/accusative plural case] )
since ..................................................... (aph' hou )
2) a war occurred (*4)........( gegonŰs [perf participle, act, nom-voc, masc sing] polemos [nominative case, masc. sing.])

between those........................................... (tois [the front part of a "tois... kai tois" parallel construction] )
characteristically beyond (or upslope from)... (th' [ a form of te] huper [prep with accusative or genitive])
stone-boundary-marker(s) of Hercules, ....... (HÍrakleias stÍlas accusative plural singular case] (or alternately doric/aeolic fem gen sing )
colonizing externally; ........................(exŰ [adverb] katoikousin [present participle active, masc-neut dat plural] )

and the-other-party -- all-parts inside....(kai tois entos pasin) [dat plural] [2nd part of "tois...kai tois parallelism]

[ for "tois pasin" see item A.I. in the following link ]
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2379905

Now there is need to discuss this conclusively.... (hon [in accusative case], dei [impersonal present tense], nun diaperainein [where diaperainein is a present infinitive, in active voice])



footnote *1 The Word Study Tool on the Perseus-Tufts website explains that the verb mnÍsthŰmen is in Subjunctive mood, first person plural, active voice, aorist tense. Furthermore to explain Subjunctive Mood it cites Overview of Greek Syntax, by Jeffery Rydberg-Cox:

quote from: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin///ptext?doc=1999.04.0052&loc=subj&lang=greek&bytepos=487735&wordcount=1&doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0179&formentry=0

IV. Subjunctive
The meaning of the subjunctive mood varies according to its context.

Deliberative: The first person subjunctive is used when a speaker questions what she or he should do. The negative is mÍ. Smyth 1805-1808
ti drasŰ; poi phugŰ; Eur. Med. 1271 ; what am I to do? whither shall I fly?



footnote *2 The construction here (gegonŰs emÍnuthÍ polemos) is explicitly cited in Liddle-Scott lexicon, where emÍnuthÍ takes on the meaning of "show that"
mÍn-uŰ
A. 2. c. acc. et part., pros ton basilea m. tina echonta show that he has, Hdt.2.121.g'; ex epiboulÍs apothanonta tina m. Antipho 2.1.5 ; gegonŰs emÍnuthÍ polemos Pl.Criti. l.c.: the part. is sts. omitted, tod' ergon . . se mÍnuei kakon (sc. onta) E.Hipp.1077: c. acc. et inf., [poiÍtai] tauta houtŰs echein m. Pl.R.366b ; also hÍ epistÍmÍ m. hŰs . . hepomenÍs tÍs psuchÍs gives indication of the soul as following, Id.Cra. 412a.



footnote *3 Some medieval manuscripts read 1009 years, but other medieval manuscripts read 9000 years.

For general comparison, The Bury translation of this passage is:
[108e] Now first of all we must recall the fact that 9000 is the sum of years since the war occurred, as is recorded, between the dwellers beyond the pillars of Heracles and all that dwelt within them ; which war we have now to relate in detail.

footnote (*4) http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2322210

[ 08-07-2008, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: atalante ]

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Riven
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I am not aware of any manuscripts claiming 1009 years.

I believe the translators like Bury and Jowett are correct in stating 9000 years.

The icing on the cake is the mentioning of the amount of years for Egypts recordings as 8000.

Which can neither be 800 or 1008 for the matter of 1370 or 1578.bC as the pinnacle for Egypts recordings.

As spoken, this is mental instability on the part of skeptics and erroneous translators to claim 900 or 1009 years as correct.

The cherry on the icing is that 9000 was the sum of years since the war took place.
I don't believe that 9000 years is erroneous,rather like the atlantean names,it is the meaning of the years that we seek to understand, or what exactly is the interpretation of a year to the egyptian priest.

As we discussed kings reigns as most prominent, we can also imagine that some of those reigns could have been inflated on the records to add greatness to the pharaoh and throw off the sum of those years,perhaps.

I find it ironic that in 570.bC, the Egyptians knew of 8000 years of recorded history, but for us, we only know of Pharaoh Menes with Narmer and Scorpion king just surfacing around 3250.bC.

We have also realized the greater antiquity of the palermo stone reaching towards 4000.bc and maybe even 5000.bC.

In either case,according to our Atlantis legend, some 5000 years of Egyptian histories are missing since Pharaoh MeneS.

Which should not be when we consider it was known in 570.bC.

[Eek!] [Roll Eyes] [Confused]

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Riven
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[Razz]

[ 08-08-2008, 01:39 AM: Message edited by: Riven ]

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So if a year doesn't really mean a year, what does it mean?
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Riven
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Well Tom,this research would be easier for all of us if we had the actual Egyptian writings to translate. We only have the Greek interpretation of what the Egyptian priest said to Solon.

So that leads us to believe that the term 9000 years is the Greek understanding in 570.bc and what Plato preserved in 360.bC.

Was the year a lunar or solar translation?
Did the year include 365 days in 570.bC?
Were the years soley based on kings reigns?

From what I remember,it would have been almost impossible for the Greeks to mistake Egyptian hundreds from their symbol for thousands.

As it also is for translators to mistake greek hundreds for thousands.

The translation is 9000 years and 8000 years respectfuly.

In 570.bC also, the Greek colony of naucratis and mergers with the egyptians was quite influential,so I would also imagine that an Egyptian/Greek scribe recorded the story for Solon to take back with him,like the rosetta stone for example.

So the main question should be what kind of calendar were they using in Solon's time and how did it compare to the Egyptians.

How many months were in their calendars?

As we notice today from our calendar of 12 months and the names of our months,something is terribly wrong with our calendar when we look at the "ember" months.

Such as Sept is Seven,Octo is Eight,Nove is nine,Dece is 10,but yet they are out of sync.

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[Smile] test

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Qoais
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From a very early time, the ancient Egyptians had a form of calendar based upon the phases of the moon followed a calendar system of 360 days, with three seasons, each made up of 4 months, with thirty days in each month. The seasons of the Egyptians corresponded with the cycles of the Nile, and were known as Inundation (pronounced akhet which lasted from June 21st to October 21st), Emergence (pronounced proyet which lasted from October 21st to February 21st), and Summer (pronounced shomu which lasted from February 21st to June 21st).
The beginning of the year, also called "the opening of the year", was marked by the emergence of the star Sirius, in the constellation of Canis Major. The constellation emerged roughly on June 21st., and was called "the going up of the goddess Sothis". The star was visible just before sunrise, and is still one of the brightest stars in the sky, located to the lower left of Orion and taking the form of the dogs nose in the constellation Canis Major.


Though the Egyptians did have a 360 day calendar, in a literal sense they did have a 365 day calendar system. The beginning of the year was marked by the addition of five additional days, known as "the yearly five days". These additional five days, were times of great feasting and celebration for the Egyptians, and it was not uncommon for the Egyptians to rituals, and other celebratory dealings on these days. As they made no provision for a leap year, the calendar and the seasons drifted out of step, and by the end of the Old Kingdom there was a discrepancy of five months.


The Egyptian calendar also took on other important functions within Egyptian life specifically in dealing with the astrology of the people. This was in the form of having other calendars used by the Egyptians like the solar (sun) calendar and the stellar (star) calendar.

The civil calendar


The Ancient Egyptians were highly organised with a very efficient central government. The administrators needed a calendar simpler than one in which they did not know when the month started until the Priests had looked at the sunrise, and in which all the months had the same number of days and all the years the same number of months. So they introduced a civil calendar containing twelve months each with thirty days, and each month containing three weeks of ten days, and then five days of public holidays to bring the year to three hundred and sixty five days. These five holidays celebrated the birthdays of Osiris, Isis, Horus, Nephthys and Seth. The problem was that this calendar did not have leap years.


AKHET (the time of flooding) June 15 - October 15

1...............
2
3
4
Thoth...............
Paophi
Athyr
Khoyak
June 15 - July 15
July 15 - August 15
August 15 - September 15...............
September 15 - October 15


PERET (the time of sowing) October 15 - February 15

1...............
2
3
4
Tybi
Mekhir...............
Phamenat
Pharmuti
October 15 - November 15...............
November 15 - December 15
December 15 - January 15
January 15 - February 15


SHEMU (the time of harvest) February 15 - June 15

1...............
2
3
4
Pakhons
Payni
Epiphi...............
Mesore
February 15 - March 15...............
March 15 - April 15
April 15 - May 15
May 15 - June 15


The hours of the day


Most of the ancient people ended one day, and so of course started the next, at sunset, but the Ancient Egyptians started their new day at sunrise.


The Ancient Egyptians divided the day-time into twelve hours, numbered one to twelve, and the night-time into another twelve, numbered thirteen to twenty four. The hours were not all the same length: in the summer the hours of the day were longer than the hours of the night, and of course the other way round in the winter.


The skies in Ancient Egypt were always clear so measuring the passing of the hours was easy: during the day they used a sundial and at night they used the stars.


Different stars rise at different times, depending on the seasons, and the Ancient Egyptians measured the hours of darkness by watching for the rising of certain special stars. The special stars they used to measure the hours of darkness were called decans. The stars painted on the ceilings of the pyramids were there so that the dead King could tell the time!


Later on they used water clocks ( clepsydra) to time things more accurately than they could with just a sundial or the stars.


The Ancient Egyptians were the first people to make a calendar which kept in step with the Sun and the seasons. They were also the first people to use a twenty four hour clock.


The solar calendar (based on the Sun)


The time at which the River Nile starts to flood depends upon a number of factors, and these all depend on the time taken for the Earth to go round the Sun, which gives us our seasons. This is a solar year, about three hundred and sixty five and a quarter days. But a solar year is not exactly three hundred and sixty five and a quarter days so we must not add an extra day every four years. The time between two heliacal risings of Serpet, at the latitude of Egypt, is about twelve minutes longer than a solar year. This means that their stellar calendar lost one day in about a hundred years compared to a solar calendar.


By the time the difference between the solar and the stellar calendar was big enough to make the day they had predicted for the start of the inundation to be wrong by more than a few days, the Ancient Egyptians had realised the start of the inundation depended upon a solar year and not the heliacal rising of Serpet, and had measured the length of a solar year so precisely that they were able to make a calendar more accurate than the Julian calendar, which had a leap year every four years, being used in Europe nearly four thousand years later! But they were not allowed to change the old calendar, so Akhet still started on the day of the heliacal rising of Serpet, even though they were using a solar calendar to predict the actual date of the start of the inundation.


This year is divided into three seasons of four months, the month into three weeks of ten days that do not overlap the months; the day into 24 hours. The Egyptians knew that this calendar year was too short, that it was lacking a quarter of a day in order for it to correspond to a complete sidereal revolution. Also in 4236 B.C. (the imagination remains transfixed), they invented a second astronomical calendar founded precisely on this time lag, this delay, of a quarter of a day per year, in the 365-day calendar year as compared to the sidereal, or astronomical, calendar. The time lag thus accumulated at the end of four years is equal to one day. Instead of adding one day every 4 years and thus instituting a leap year, the Egyptians preferred the masterful solution that consists of following this time lag for 1,460 years


The point in the sky exactly about the Earth's North Pole is called the Celestial North Pole, and as the Earth rotates all the stars seem to move in a circle round it. Polaris (the Pole Star) is very close to the Celestial North Pole so is always visible every night and always due North. The stars near Polaris, the circumpolar stars (from the Latin for around the pole), circle round Polaris but do not rise and set; the stars further away from Polaris rise in the East and set in the West, just like the Sun and Moon. Many ancient people associated the circumpolar stars, which never set, with the immortal gods. Although the circumpolar stars do not rise and set we can only see them at night. The stars of the constellation called Ursa Major. Every star of course rises and sets at a different time, but every night there are always plenty of different stars to see.


The first time a star reappeared after its period of invisibility was very important to the ancient Egyptians, and to all the ancient people. This first rising of a star in the dawn sky in the East, just before Sunrise, is called its heliacal rising. To the Egyptians it represented the end of the time the star had spent in the Underworld.


Almost as soon as the first people began to settle in the valley of the River Nile, before 4200, they noticed that the heliacal rising of Serpet, after a period of seventy days of invisibility, always came a few days before the start of the annual inundation. This enabled the ancient Egyptians to predict the coming of the inundation. The heliacal rising of Serpet was the start of Akhet, and the new year.

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Qoais
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The earliest Egyptian calendar was based on the moon's cycles, but the lunar calendar failed to predict a critical event in their lives: the annual flooding of the Nile river. The Egyptians soon noticed that the first day the "Dog Star," which we call Sirius, in Canis Major was visible right before sunrise was special. The Egyptians were probably the first to adopt a mainly solar calendar. This so-called 'heliacal rising' always preceded the flood by a few days. Based on this knowledge, they devised a 365-day calendar that seems to have begun in 4236 B.C.E., the earliest recorded year in
history.

http://www.webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-ancient.html

[ 08-09-2008, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Qoais ]

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wirelessguru1
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Synchronization of the old calendars with the modern day calendar is indeed a CRITICAL issue!
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