posted
The feminist/New Age "Idyllic Goddess" theory is not an intellectually-respectable hypothesis.
It was invented by conjecturing far beyond what available facts will permit, guided by a political agenda, and "validated" by intuition.
While a belief in a universal Goddess of the Neolithic was widely-held by scholars several decades ago, recent scholarly critiques have exposed serious difficulties with this view, and
it is now quite discredited within academe.
The overwhelming majority of anthropologists and archaeologists reject Gimbutas' interpreta- tions and conjectures on "the Goddess"; however, most of them are reluctant to speak out too strongly, out of sympathy for their ailing colleague, and for her feminist goals.
Yet in spite of its rejection by scholars, the Idyllic Goddess theory has found enormous support among certain segments of the general public, because it appeals to their preconceived beliefs. Thus Gimbutas' Goddess theories should be placed alongside those of
Velikovsky and Von Daniken:
I happen to like Mr. V. however,some of it anyway.
belief-systems which, while enjoying a cult-like popularity among certain groups of laymen, are rejected virtually _in toto_ by scholars who have worked in the field.
They are classic examples of,
pseudo-science.
OH well garabge in , garbage out,live and learn ,and don't take any wooden nickles.
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Heather ya little doll, it has nothing to do with being anti paganism, I just don't like being spoon fed a bunch of BS.
I test everything, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice,,ya get the picture.??????
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The primordial images that exist depicting our forebears' concept of Deity and the Creator are all female. Veneration of male deities came later, and for a long time these were depicted in a dependent relationship to the Goddess as son/lover/consort. The usurpation of the Goddess came in some parts of the world with invasion, and in other areas by a slower process whereby people came to experience the Goddess primarily in Her relationship to the Sky-Father, King of the Gods. With this came a general undermining of the role of women in society and their loss of rights.
While the pantheistic religions did retain the Goddess in a subjected form, the monotheistic religions which arose from the Middle east, although originally themselves worshippers of the Great Mother, began to identify the Goddess as their greatest spiritual enemy equating Her worship with idolatry and evil. The pages of the Old Testament are filled with the battles against the followers of the Goddess.
Despite this there is little doubt that the ancient mysteries of the Goddess have had a formative effect upon the philosophical heritage of our Western culture. The Eleusinian Mysteries venerated the Greek Goddesses Demeter and Persephone and the mysteries of the cycle of life, death and rebirth. It is believed they were founded in about 1400 BC and managed to survive until around AD 400 when they were suppressed by Theodosius in his campaign to destroy all who did not accept the Christian faith. The mysteries of the Egyptian Goddess Isis also extended far beyond the bounds of ancient Egypt and flourished in the Greco-Roman world.
Although recent years have seen a great resurgence of interest in the Great Goddess it is not true that in the intervening time She has been 'lost'. Her veneration and the teachings associated with Her mysteries went 'underground' and have continued even within the patriarchal religions as secret traditions.
It is also important to keep in mind that the Goddess exists in Her own terms and is not an anthropomorphic projection of human consciousness, matriarchal or otherwise, that has been overthrown with the coming of patriarchal consciousness. Deity is ultimately beyond gender and, as it has been said, 'God is God, not man; Goddess is Goddess, not woman.' This means that, although we may clothe the Goddess in the form of a woman or the Earth, Moon or Sun, she is not these things. As Caitlin Matthews states in Elements of the Goddess, 'the Goddess is primarily a spiritual channel reaching down into our soul.
The Qabalah, the mystical tradition of the Judaic religion, offers a structure for knowing the unknowable by formulating the concept that although the Creator is beyond our awareness, the process of creation can be likened to a series of emanations which culminate in the physical universe we perceive about us. The polarity of Deity into the relative forms of God and Goddess occurs at a very abstract level of this process, yet it can be approached through these forms allowing that which lies behind form to be glimpsed. This is a controversial subject, and I do appreciate that there are many readers who will have their own concepts of deity which may be radically different from mine. But I hope that we still can meet on the common ground of veneration of the Divine Feminine.
Certainly the Goddess in Her many forms is undergoing a resurgence in the West. I use the term 'West' very deliberately as this phenomenon is taking place primarily in Western Europe, North America, and Australia. In much of the world, the worship of the Goddess has continued for the most part unhindered by Christianity or the advent of scientific materialism. The Hindu and Buddhist pantheons are rich in Goddesses and those religions allow for Her worship. The native tradition of Africa is also rich in Goddesses and in South and Central America (and areas of the Southern United States with a large Latin-American population) religions such as Voodoo, Santeria and Macumba give veneration to various Goddesses. These latter religions, although their mythology and pantheons are for the most part derived from African sources, have freely attributed their Goddesses to various popular Catholic saints.
A variety of factors have attributed to the 'rediscovery' of the religion of the Goddess in the West. One can not doubt the part played in this by the feminist movement as women began to seek to reconnect with their spirituality outside the framework of the male dominated Judeo-Christian/ Islamic religions. Women began to form study groups to investigate the religion of the Goddess and then began to express this connection by establishing women's mystery groups. Books began to appear written both from the historical and the experiential perspective, enabling women to connect to the Goddess as a symbol of women's emerging consciousness.
Many of these groups utilized some of the symbols and rituals of European witchcraft which itself had only recently re-emerged with the repeal of the Witchcraft Act in England in the early 1950s. These feminist covens differ from the mainstream Wiccan movement by their tendency to distance themselves from the Divine Masculine in any aspect. However, in a movement with as much energy as the Women's Spirituality Movement, little is static and many women, after gaining a sense of their own strength and relationship to the Goddess, are discovering that not all aspects of 'the God' are anti-Goddess or anti-woman.
Another important factor in the process of the Goddess's re-emergence is the ecology movement and the growing awareness of the plight of the Earth. This reverence for the Earth has also stirred the sleeping consciousness within humankind of the Earth as Mother. Here, with the appreciation of Earth as a living organism, a route back to the ancient reverence of the Earth as Goddess has been made.
Also, although Sigmund Freud may seem an odd champion of the Goddess, there is little doubt that the development of psychoanalysis with its emphasis upon the 'unconscious' as the repository of all that is repressed/ dark/ unknown once more gave voice to dreams which have always been a vehicle of the Goddess's mysteries. Following on from Freud are the works of Carl Jung and his successors which explored in depth many traditional symbols including the Divine Feminine principle. However, the shortcomings of the psychological world view are many, not least their tendency to reduce spiritual philosophy and Deity to a creation of the human collective conscious in the form of 'archetypes.'
An interesting development emerging from the humanistic and transpersonal schools of psychology in recent years has been an awareness of the great value for both the individual and the collective of the use of 'sacred drama.' These are enacted as rites of passage and a way of healing the psyche which harks back to the mysteries of ancient Egypt and Greece for inspiration.
quote:The feminist/New Age "Idyllic Goddess" theory is not an intellectually-respectable hypothesis.
Says the Christian fundamentalists who also believe in "intelligent design."
quote:It was invented by conjecturing far beyond what available facts will permit, guided by a political agenda, and "validated" by intuition.
And it differs from Christianity because of what again..?
quote:While a belief in a universal Goddess of the Neolithic was widely-held by scholars several decades ago, recent scholarly critiques have exposed serious difficulties with this view, and
it is now quite discredited within academe.
Critiques originally put forward by a South African archaeologist who actually considered 30,000 year old goddess statues a child's sex toys. Yep, I'd sure want my kid to play with that.
quote:The overwhelming majority of anthropologists and archaeologists reject Gimbutas' interpreta- tions and conjectures on "the Goddess"; however, most of them are reluctant to speak out too strongly, out of sympathy for their ailing colleague, and for her feminist goals.
Try, "dead" colleague, you can't get more "ailing" than that. And most of the things they attribute to her saying she didn't even write about.
quote:Yet in spite of its rejection by scholars, the Idyllic Goddess theory has found enormous support among certain segments of the general public, because it appeals to their preconceived beliefs. Thus Gimbutas' Goddess theories should be placed alongside those of
Velikovsky and Von Daniken:
To sum up:
1. Stone Age people actually did worship a goddess, what sort of worship was it? Who knows, there was no writing at the time, but the icons are clearly of a goddess. This isn't even up for contention, by any history book on ancient history and it's in there.
2. The early civilizations with writing still have a female goddess playing a pivotal role, with the Minoan civilization on Crete still said to be "idyllic." Isis, too, plays a big role in early Egyptian myth.
3. While some feminists have idealized the early civilizations and their conception of the Goddesss, Gimbutas is frequently slammed these days for statements she didn't even make. Of course, she's dead now so no longer able to defend herself.
4. The whole movement against Goddess Worship is driven by petty Christian fundamentalists who see it as a threat to their own stale religion and are determined to keep women in a secondary place.
Ishtar, how many times are you going to cut and paste this biased information?
If there is no Goddess then where did God get the design for a woman?
Didn't Christians deify Mary as the Virgin? They pray to her, this makes it defication in my opinion.
Now. This topic is meant to be a pro-pagan discussion, I can tell. Pagans have long been spoon fed this "Christian" view for centuries. We respect your religion, why can't you respect ours?
I'm one of the people that believe in the Creator. Jesus was just an important man who did wonderful things. Just like the Jewish people, I don't believe he was the Messaih. Are we wrong? Maybe, but then again who can say for sure. None of us were alive when Jesus lived.
"The basic myth of the Isis cult concerned Osiris, her husband during the earlier Egyptian and nonmystery stage of the religion. According to the most common version of the myth, Osiris was murdered by his brother who then sank the coffin containing Osiris’s body into the Nile river. Isis discovered the body and returned it to Egypt. But her brother-in-law once again gained access to the body, this time dismembering it into fourteen pieces which he scattered widely. Following a long search, Isis recovered each part of the body. It is at this point that the language used to describe what followed is crucial. Sometimes those telling the story are satisfied to say that Osiris came back to life, even though such language claims far more than the myth allows. Some writers go even further and refer to the alleged “resurrection” of Osiris. One liberal scholar illustrates how biased some writers are when they describe the pagan myth in Christian language: “The dead body of Osiris floated in the Nile and he returned to life, this being accomplished by a baptism in the waters of the Nile.”3
This biased and sloppy use of language suggests three misleading analogies between Osiris and Christ: (1) a savior god dies and (2) then experiences a resurrection accompanied by (3) water baptism. But the alleged similarities, as well as the language used to describe them, turn out to be fabrications of the modern scholar and are not part of the original myth. Comparisons between the resurrection of Jesus and the resuscitation of Osiris are greatly exaggerated.4 Not every version of the myth has Osiris returning to life; in some he simply becomes king of the underworld. Equally far-fetched are attempts to find an analogue of Christian baptism in the Osins myth.5 The fate of Osiris’s coffin in the Nile is as relevant to baptism as the sinking of Atlantis."
This is exactly what your religion WANTS you to believe. First off, the Bible is also infalliable because it was written by man! Man is prone to prejudice, errors, omissions, and inconsistencies. The people writing these articles are also biased. The legend and myth of Osiris is 100% accurate acccording to every Egyptologist in the world! So they're wrong just because some Christian claims it to be so. Talk about tunnel vision.
The Bible is simply the Hebrew creation myth!!!
The Emperor Constantine had it 'compiled' during his reign, added pagan rituals and holidays to help smooth the conversion of the 'heathens', and put it in the world as a way to tame the uprising of Christianity.
Jesus wasn't born on Dec. 25 as Christianity puts forth. According to extensive research conducted by Hebrew scholars, Jesus was born in July! Christmas was attributed to the birth of Jesus, which corresponds to an older pagan celebration called Yule. Christianity is a very, very young religion. It has also done the most harm to others who didn't believe like they were forced to do. This is not how GOD wants it. Guaranteed!
posted
P.S. Should have also added that if you reverse the biblical chronology to confirm a date when 'Adam and Eve' existed, you get a date of around 4000 BC. Which as we all know is incorrect. Humans have been around much longer than that.
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posted
AND now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened: Behold! human beings living in an underground den, which has a mouth open toward the light and reaching all along the den; here they have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains from turning round their heads. Above and behind them a fire is blazing at a distance, and between the fire and the prisoners there is a raised way; and you will see, if you look, a low wall built along the way, like the screen which marionette players have in front of them, over which they show
"THE PUPPETS."
And do you see, I said, men passing along the wall carrying all sorts of vessels, and statues and figures of animals made of wood and stone and various materials, which appear over the wall? Some of them are talking, others silent.
You have shown me a strange image, and they are strange prisoners.
Like ourselves, I replied;
and they see only
their own shadows,
or the shadows of one another,
which the fire throws on the opposite wall of the cave?
True, he said; how could they see anything but the shadows if they were never allowed to move their heads?
And of the objects which are being carried in like manner they would only see the shadows?
Yes, he said.
And if they were able to converse with one another, would they not suppose that they were naming what was actually before them?
Very true.
And suppose further that the prison had an echo which came from the other side, would they not be sure to fancy when one of the passersby spoke that the voice which they heard came from the passing shadow?
No question, he replied.
To them, I said, the truth would be literally nothing
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posted
And now look again, and see what will naturally follow if the prisoners are released and disabused of their error. At first, when any of them is liberated and compelled suddenly to stand up and turn his neck round and walk and look toward the light, he will suffer sharp pains; the glare will distress him, and he will be unable to see the realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows; and then conceive someone saying to him, that what he saw before was an illusion, but that now, when he is approaching nearer to being and his eye is turned toward more real existence, he has a clearer vision -- what will be his reply? And you may further imagine that his instructor is pointing to the objects as they pass and requiring him to name them --
will he not be perplexed?
Will he not fancy that the shadows which he formerly saw are
truer than the objects which are now shown to him?
And if he is compelled to look straight at the light, will he not have a pain in his eyes which will make him turn away to take refuge in the objects of vision which he can see,
and which he will conceive to be in reality
clearer
than the things which are now being shown to him?
And suppose once more, that he is reluctantly dragged up a steep and rugged ascent, and held fast until he is forced into the presence of the sun himself, is he not likely to be pained and irritated? When he approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled, and he will not be able to see anything at all of what are now called
" realities."
He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And first he will see the shadows best, next the reflections of men and other objects in the water, and then the objects themselves; then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven; and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day?
Last of all he will be able to see the sun, and not mere reflections of him in the water, but he will see him in his own proper place, and not in another; and he will contemplate him as he is.
He will then proceed to argue that this is he who gives the season and the years, and is the guardian of all that is in the visible world, and in a certain way the cause of all things which he and his fellows have been accustomed to behold?
Clearly, he said, he would first see the sun and then reason about him.
And when he remembered his old habitation, and the wisdom of the den and his fellow prisoners, do you not suppose that he would felicitate himself on the change, and pity him?
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posted
And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the den, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable), would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if anyone tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death.
This entire allegory, I said, you may now append, dear Glaucon, to the previous argument; the
prisonhouse is the world of
sight, the light of the fire is the sun, and you will not misapprehend me if you interpret the
journey upward to be
the ascent of the soul into the
intellectual world according to my poor belief, which, at your desire, I have expressed --
whether rightly or wrongly,
God knows.
But, whether
true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort;
and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world,
and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual;
and that this is the power upon which he who would act
""""rationally"""""
either in public or private life must have his eye fixed.
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posted
they say that they can put a knowledge into the soul which was not there before, like sight into blind eyes.
the power and capacity of learning exists in the soul already
And must there not be some art which will effect conversion in the easiest and quickest manner; not implanting the faculty of sight, for that exists already, but has been turned in the wrong direction, and is looking away from the truth?
be to compel the best minds to attain that knowledge which we have already shown to be the greatest of all -- they must continue to ascend until they arrive at the good;
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posted
Wherefore each of you, when his turn comes, must go down to the general underground abode, and get the habit of seeing in the dark. When you have acquired the habit, you will see ten thousand times better than the inhabitants of the den, and you will know what the several images are, and what they represent, because you have seen the beautiful and just and good in their truth.
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posted
And now shall we consider in what way such guardians will be produced, and how they are to be brought from darkness to light -- as some are said to have ascended from the world below to the gods?
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posted
I quite admit the difficulty of believing that in every man there is an eye of the soul which, when by other pursuits lost and dimmed, is by these purified and reillumined; and is more precious far than ten thousand bodily eyes, for by it alone is truth seen. Now there are two classes of persons: one class of those who will agree with you and will take your words as a revelation; another class to whom they will be utterly unmeaning, and who will naturally deem them to be idle tales, for they see no sort of profit which is to be obtained from them. And therefore you had better decide at once with which of the two you are proposing to argue. You will very likely say with neither, and that your chief aim in carrying on the argument is your own improvement; at the same time you do not grudge to others any benefit which they may receive.
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posted
And so, Glaucon, I said, we have at last arrived at the hymn of dialectic. This is that strain which is of the intellect only, but which the faculty of sight will nevertheless be found to imitate; for sight, as you may remember, was imagined by us after a while to behold the real animals and stars, and last of all the sun himself. And so with dialectic; when a person starts on the discovery of the absolute by the light of reason only, and without any assistance of sense, and perseveres until by pure intelligence he arrives at the perception of the absolute good, he at last finds himself at the end of the intellectual world, as in the case of sight at the end of the visible.
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posted
At any rate, we are satisfied, as before, to have four divisions; two for intellect and two for opinion, and to call the first division science, the second understanding, the third belief, and the fourth perception of shadows, opinion being concerned with becoming, and intellect with being; and so to make a proportion: "As being is to becoming, so is pure intellect to opinion. And as intellect is to opinion, so is science to belief, and understanding to the perception of shadows."
Until the person is able to abstract and define rationally the
idea of good,
and unless he can run the gauntlet of
all objections, and is ready to
disprove them, not by
appeals to
"opinion", but to
"absolute truth,"
never faltering at any step of the argument --
unless he can do all this, you would say that
he knows neither the idea of
good nor any other good;
he apprehends only a
"SHADOW",
if anything at all,
which is given by
opinion,
and not by science;
dreaming and slumbering in this life, before he is
well awake here,
he arrives at the world below, and has his final quietus.
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posted
Ishtar, it's not about being "fooled," it's about finding the right religion for you. If Christianity works better for you, than fine, nobody is trying to convert you. This thread is not meant to be an attack, but rather an attempt to set the record straight on the history between Pagan beliefs and Christianity, though I admit that it favors pagans.
There's no real right or wrong to any of this, you might have found reasons to believe as you do, well, the rest of us also have our reasons for believing as we do. Like Cleasterwood said, we should try and respect each other. I'm certainly not trying to alienate you, or anyone, and also hope you're not trying to do that to me.
You're welcome to post whatever you want here, of course, but can we try and keep it on topic? A lot of the last ones added actually aren't. Thanks, hope you don't take anything you've heard here personally.
Bright Blessings!
Heather
Pagan Influences in Christian Culture
by Douglas M. Painter
Official persecution of Christianity was only occasional, however (the worst period being probably the last half of the first century and the last half of the third). Perhaps because history is written by the winners, these periods of persecution have received a great deal of sympathetic press in subsequent centuries, and are often depicted as a long and continuous struggle of Christianity against an evil Empire.
In this struggle, however, the Christians, despite persecution, were gradually winning. They continued to gain adherents throughout the Empire--in Asia, North Africa, and even among some settled barbarians in Europe. Eventually, Christianity achieved official tolerance with the advent of Emperor Constantine, a convert whose legions fought under the waving standard of the cross at the end of the fourth century. The dominance of Christianity as the official religion of the Empire was achieved in the next century, and the word ‘paganus’ took on a far more ominous definition.
Paganism came to represent the unbelievers, the heathen cults of polytheism and superstition, as well as the various schools of philosophy that proliferated throughout the Empire. All such sects were persecuted. There were book burnings, the destruction of temples as well as schools of philosophy. At best, the pagan was to be considered non-religious or superstitious; at worst, he was a tool of satanic forces.
The remaining pagans spoke up, warning that the social and political dissolution that they were witnessing in what proved to be the waning years of the Empire was the result of a turning away from the “old time religion” of their polytheistic forefathers. The Christian response was to reform, convert, absorb or destroy rival belief systems.
Representative of the new strategy of assimilation or destruction of pagan beliefs is an episode that took place around the year 400 C.E. with an imperial order to destroy the main pagan temple: the Marneum. The task was difficult because the structure was quite substantial. It would take an act of divine intervention to bring it down; and this took place in the form of a Greek-speaking peasant boy who informed the Bishop of Graz how the temple could be toppled. This was considered a “miracle” because it was generally well-known that the boy had previously only spoken Syriac, the oral expression of commoners. Greek was the language of business and higher culture. The boy also had no training in engineering or architecture, so that knowing the structure’s weak spots, and how to dismantle it, must have been born of divine revelation.
Rather than miraculous acts of destruction, however, Christians more often simply moved into pagan structures-- having reconsecrated them for Christian usage. This was particularly true as the Church grew and the little houses or complexes that had served for meetings no longer sufficed. New structures that were built were often modeled after pagan prototypes, such as the ecclesiae basilica, and the various memorial shrines built to honor Christian martyrs.
Confronting the beliefs and practices of the heathen masses presented other problems. Textual and rational arguments were rarely the best reproach against superstition, non-Christian miracles, augury, magic, and other forms of supernatural participation. Such practices, without the mediating powers of the now established Church, were deemed to be little more than devil-worship. The Church acted to suppress such beliefs and practices. Over the span of a thousand years, they were to succeed beyond their wildest hopes.
quote:I'm one of the people that believe in the Creator. Jesus was just an important man who did wonderful things. Just like the Jewish people, I don't believe he was the Messaih. Are we wrong? Maybe, but then again who can say for sure. None of us were alive when Jesus lived.
Actually, I'm still trying to figure out when and if Jesus lived. As you pointed out, the myth does borrow heavily from Isis, among other sources. How can you be certain that he actually lived, let alone did all that he was said to do, other than that a movement started in the first century representing him.
Any thoughts on that?
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Pagan beliefs can show up in many places, particularly in oral traditons. Allen Upward, author of THE DIVINE MYSTERY found the influence of paganism in "John Barleycorn". The poem was written down by Robert Burns in 1792. However, his was only one version of many versions that had survived in Scotland since before Scotland became Christian...
Hi George, great poem! Was it included in the Divine Mystery? It might make a good project to see just how many things that are said to be uniquely Christian actually had pagan roots.
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posted
"Most scholars have not been historians, but theologians determined to make the documents justify theiry own theological positions." Morton Smith [Jesus the Magician, 1998, pg4] The wolf of theology in the sheep's clothing of critical scholarship A tedious look at the logic of "came up with independently."
Here's something that maybe isn't obvious to you, at least it wasn't obvious to me for a long time: The belief that early Christians came up with their Pagan-like ideas independently -- that's not a belief you can get to with reasoned analysis.
Why? The short answer: If you already know about something, you can't come up with it independently, and the first Christians knew about the Pagan ideas before they developed the Christian ideas. The long answer is what the rest of this page is about. The long answer is boring. I've got it here because "came up with independently" is the keystone of believing scholars' modern orthodoxy.
The long answer lf you're a Christian, you believe Christian ideas, rituals, sacraments and myths are true, and Pagan ideas, rituals, sacraments and myths are not. God revealed Himself -- and His rituals and sacraments -- through His son Jesus. Good. That's your faith, you don't have to justify it to me. We can still be friends. (For all you know, I agree.)
Faith is not reasoned. Faith in revealed truth isn't reasoned scholarship. What if you want to go beyond faith and and dress up [down?] your faith with reasoned analysis of the historical facts? Then you'll maybe decide the early Christians came up with their ideas, rituals, sacraments and myths independently, without copying from the Pagans. ("Came up with independently," is too long to say over and over, so from here on we'll say "invented.")
If that's what you think, then you'll pretty much have to go along with your believing-scholar buddies, and agree with one of the three regulation defenses that we talked about one page back, at arguments.
<<...OLE_Obj...>> 1 Different. Christian ideas, rituals, sacraments and myths are different from pagan ideas, rituals, sacraments and myths. Christian baptism is different from pagan baptism. The Christian eucharist is different from the Pagan eucharists. Christian life after death is different from Pagan life after death.
<<...OLE_Obj...>> Of course you can't say Christian baptism and Pagan baptism are different without saying they're similar. They are both baptisms, after all. (Believing scholars who hold out for Different often insist on something like "baptism and purificatory water initiations," -- because they see "baptism and baptism" concedes the point. This doesn't fool anyone who doesn't want to be fooled.)
And once you've conceded they are both baptisms or "purificatory water initiations", all you can really say is Christian baptism or [your sacrament here] is qualitatively different from Pagan baptism or [your sacrament here]. More elevated, more spiritual, believing scholars often suggest. I've even seen, "more sublime." Whatever; they're all roundabout ways of saying the Pagan sacrament isn't but the Christian sacrament is "true," and "valid."
And that isn't critical scholarship, that's theology. Fine; we can still be friends. <<...OLE_Obj...>> <<...OLE_Obj...>> 2 Not different, but it developed separately. Christian ideas, rituals, sacraments and myths are similar to Pagan ideas, rituals, sacraments and myths, but they developed separately. Believing scholars often say, "in parallel." What "in parallel" is taken to mean is, "independently," or "uninfluenced by." <<...OLE_Obj...>> <<...OLE_Obj...>> <<...OLE_Obj...>> <<...OLE_Obj...>> <<...OLE_Obj...>> <<...OLE_Obj...>> <<...OLE_Obj...>> <<...OLE_Obj...>> <<...OLE_Obj...>> <<...OLE_Obj...>> "In parallel" is a sneaky phrase for believing scholars to use, because it doesn't just mean "independently," it also means "at the same time." But it doesn't come right out and say so. That helps the believing scholars' argumentationing, because at the same time would be good if it were true -- but it's not. Paganism was around for thousands of years before Christianity. So were the Pagan ideas, rituals, sacraments and myths. What developed separately really means is "developed forty-seventh, but uninfluenced by."
I can't honestly see how it's possible to invent something you already know about. If you know about the soul surviving death, you know about the soul surviving death. And if you know about it, you can't come up with it on your own. If you know about water baptism, you know about water baptism. And if you know about it, you can't come up with it on your own.
How you can develop an idea on your own that everyone else in the culture, including you before you converted, knows about -- that's a detail the believing scholars don't dwell on. They're busy doing other stuff, I guess.
In parallel isn't critical scholarship. It's not even reasoned theology. In parallel is wishful thinking in defense of belief. Fine; we can still be friends. <<...OLE_Obj...>> <<...OLE_Obj...>> 3 Not different, but it developed first. Christian ideas, rituals, sacraments and myths are similar to Pagan ideas, rituals, sacraments and myths, but they developed first. Them varmint Pagans done stole from us! Backwards in time even -- that's the explanation the early Church fathers gave. They called it "demonic imitation."
Developed first? -- the facts say different, as the early Christians' backwards-in-time demonic imitation shows. Developed first isn't critical scholarship. It's not even reasoned theology. Developed first is wishful thinking in defense of belief. Fine; we can still be friends. <<...OLE_Obj...>>
Bottom line "Developed independently" is the wolf of theology in the sheep's clothing of critical scholarship. Developed independently is arguing backward to save the answer believing scholars believed when they came in -- that Christianity is somehow unique and true. Fine; we can still be friends. But let's understand what's going on.
quote:Originally posted by Absonite: they know that we are superior to them. Men cannot give life to the world.
yeah, and they also can't give minds to the mindless nitwits.
Ladies, I present Absonite - the poster child for the point I made with my post. Thanks for your assistance, Absonite, I appreciate it. Posts: 875 | Registered: Jun 2005
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-------------------- The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." Posts: 12853 | Registered: Feb 2002
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I believe Jesus existed historically. He most likely did perform the miracles attributed to him. Still I find it hard to believe that he was anything more than a man with exceptional enlightened abilities.
I doubt the chronology is correct in the Bible, but I do believe there is an established chronology, historically speaking. It's been proven that King David and other Biblical kings did in fact exist. On this point, historians and theologians alike agree upon.
Ishtar, Does not God say "Lift a rock and you will find me." ? You say enjoy the shadows, but you don't quite realize that Pagans also search for enlightenment. Just because our definition of God and yours are different doesn't mean it isn't the same entity. Are you trying to say that those people who practice all the other religions in the world are also 'living in the shadows'? Rather shallow of you to judge the book by the cover.
Oh and Pagans believe that you should do what thou will but harm none. So in effect we are like Christians.
Yes, the poem John Barleycorn and a discussion of it imagery and meaning are part of Allen Upward's THE DIVINE MYSTERY. I've been find quite a lot of interesting things in this book since I took it down off the shelf last week.
Cleasterwood,
I believe Jesus tried to lead his followers out of the shadows. But Christianity has repeatedly renounced his teachings. Take the burnings of the great library at Alexandria. The library was said to contain over a million individual volumes and believed to embrace not only the literature but the entire technological and scientific knowledge of the western world. Julius Caesar's army partially destroyed the libarary when he captured the city, and he is said to have lamented the loss for the rest of his life. Four centuries later the famous teacher and philosopher, Hypatia was seized by Christian mobs on the steps of the library. She was strippped naked, dragged into a church, and scrapped to death with oyster shells. Her crime was to have written books on mathematics. Her writings disappeared when the libary was burned in 389 A.D. In 415 A.D. Archbishop Cyril ordered that all the scholars of the great library were to be flayed alive to the bone, again with oyster shells. Their bodies were then publicly burned with their works and most of the books at the library. Scholars have estimated that 90 percent of the knowledge of the ancient world was destroyed in that fire. The Church of Rome did not lament the loss. Instead, they later saw fit to make Cyril a saint. (A full account of the burnings of the Library at Alexandira can be found on pp 204-05 of my work, ATLANTIS IN AMERICA).
Eleven hundred years later, 1n 1520, the Church declared the books of the Maya to be pagan and "the work of the devel." Maya temples were leveled, their stones were used to build churches. Maya priests and writers were burned at the stake and their books were thrown in the fire for fuel. Only four books of the Maya (codices) survived.
Things done in the name of religion are often atrocious, one-sided, and completely destructive to other cultures. Unfortunately most Christians don't see these atrocities because they are blinded by someone telling them what is right and what isn't. No other religion in the world has destroyed knowledge and killed people to the extent of Christians. They find justification only in their own eyes. They follow blindly words written and compiled by man just because they (the men who wrote it) say it's the word of God. The hand of God did not write the Bible. Man did- infalliable, error prone, selfish, self-motivated man. What God wants his followers to commit the crimes that Christians did? None, if you ask me. The Bible teaches to love thy neighbor, yet followers have done the opposite for thousands of years. Christianity has been living in the shadows for centuries yet to believers they are the enlightened ones. Justification of these atrocities commited are proof of this.
Still today, they go around trying to convert heathens. When a Christian comes knocking on my door to preach to me I say: First off I am pagan. Second, I don't come knocking on your door and try to convert you to paganism. Yet I respect your beliefs as you should respect mine. I'm sure you can see what happens next, they try to make me a believer. So I start quoting the Bible. Most are surprised that I even know the Bible. It has some wonderful teachings in it that all men should know, but they should also go out of their way to learn some of the other wonderful teaching offered in the Koran and other holy books from other religions. This is the path to True Enlightenment.
What most Christians don't realize though is that Pagans often hold to the same ideals Christians do. We believe that any harm you do to someone, whether verbally lashing out on them or literally hurting them, will come back to the offender 3-fold. We go out of our way to avoid harming others, and we abide by "Do what thou will, harm none." OR "Do unto others as you'd have done to you." I wish more people could see that the Bible is merely one version of history.
I have many Christian friends, some born again. They respect my religious views. God isn't found in a building. God is everywhere! Every animal, plant, rock, drop of water, grain of sand, and human is part of God. Church is held every time someone discusses God and all his aspects. Even they admit these things to be true. I take what feels spiritually right from the religions I study and keep them close to my heart. This to me is the path to God.
posted
The Universal Life Church is a legally recognized California church. Since 1962, ULC has been ordaining ministers around the world. Our ministers are authorized to perform all peaceful rites and ceremonies of the church, including legal marriages (hand fasting). The Universal Life Church includes all peaceful people. We have a very simple doctrine: "Do only that which is right." As long as it does not infringe on the rights of others, we understand that it is the right and responsibility of the individual to peacefully determine what is right. We are about religious freedom, which includes freedom from church authority as well as that of government.
The Universal Life Church includes people from all spiritual traditions and paths. We do not exclude anyone. Our ministers include Pagan, Neo-pagan, Wiccan, Christian, Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, Jew and many others whose individual beliefs do not neatly conform to the teachings of any other church. Our doctrine enables us to welcome all, and for all people to peacefully share in fellowship and spirituality, regardless of how divergent our paths may be!
Anyone may become ordained, for free, for life, and without question of faith. In fact, we understand that you are already ordained! However, the government requires an ordination process. We provide the required structure, while enabling you to peacefully pursue your spiritual path without the restrictions and limitations normally placed on ministers by their churches!
Since its inception, the Universal Life Church has maintained permanent, verifiable records of our ministers, which is a vital function of the church.
posted
My own personal beliefs towards both Christianity and Goddess Worship is that they are both a little full of it. On the other hand, at least I don't have a band of rabid Goddess Worshippers on my campus handing out leaflets and telling me that I'm going to go to hell if I don't swallow their biased bs. I can't say the same for x-tianity.
Posts: 318 | From: Dorm Room | Registered: Oct 2005
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Cleasterwood, I lean towards a lot of the figures in the Bible existing historically, too, but can just see how their efforts were exaggerated. This is not new. I'm of the same opinion that the Greek and Egyptian gods were based onn real people as well who's "works" became exaggerated in time.
Christianity didn't spread because of Jesus' teachings but because the Roman Empire adopted it as it’s official religion and marketed it throughout the world.
quote:Oh and Pagans believe that you should do what thou will but harm none. So in effect we are like Christians.
Christianity does say that, how many Christians have you met that actually do practice it? Because I haven't seen very many. Historically, many of the worst things to occur over the last two thousand years were done at the hands of either Christians or Muslims. Religin brngs with it, a lot of baggage, amomg it, bigotry.
Posts: 137 | From: Mt. Olympus | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote, My own personal beliefs towards both Christianity and Goddess Worship is that they are both a little full of it.
very wise of you.
OH Jason by the way if you don't think by propagandizing against Christianity pagans are not trying to further their agenda, you have much to learn.
Both sides are working against one another .............one side is just more """"subtle"""...
I didn't know they handed out leaflets.
I do however respect the very ancient ways we no longer have available to us, except perhaps the most secluded areas of the amazon, or Siberia, the real McCoy, if ya get my drift?
-------------------- The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." Posts: 12853 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
That is what I think many of us really long for, not a bunch of "FLUFF"
I wanted to understand the way the first person on the planet understood.
I wondered who was the first to look up into the heavens and declare there was a god/goddess/spirits of the ancestors, but that is lost to us, and we can't conjure it in out head, all we have left is the shadows............ some enter the world enlightened whereas others have to work to achieve that.
I believe there is a hereditary transmission of shaman's ways, however.
-------------------- The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." Posts: 12853 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Ishtar: That is what I think many of us really long for, not a bunch of "FLUFF"
I wanted to understand the way the first person on the planet understood.
I wondered who was the first to look up into the heavens and declare there was a god/goddess, but that is lost to us, and we can't conjure it in out head, all we have left is the shadows............
Hold that thought, BBL.
I would think that the last religion you'd want to be studying in that case would be Christianity. It's one of the new ones.
Posts: 137 | From: Mt. Olympus | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
"I wanted to understand the way the first person on the planet understood.
I wondered who was the first to look up into the heavens and declare there was a god/goddess/spirits of the ancestors, but that is lost to us, and we can't conjure it in out head, all we have left is the shadows............"
This would have to be two different people.
The Bock saga material lays it out pretty clearly..... www.bocksaga.com It is not lost to us any more.
-------------------- "Illigitimi non carborundum!" All knowledge is to be used in the manner that will give help and assistance to others, and the desire is that the laws of the Creator be manifested in the physical world. E.Cayce 254-17 Posts: 3131 | From: Port Townsend WA | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
some enter the world enlightened whereas others have to work to achieve that
I appreciate your persistence, Rocky, but I think the answer will be found before words,it will be broken down to the most simple understanding, so simple we can't perceive it.
When we may have communicated with a click, or telepathically, a time when the spirits and other dimensions were more available to us, I don't believe we have evolved but we have lost our ability, but once and a while it breaks through. We are a mutant form of what we once were, and were capable of doing.
Stand very still in the forest, and you become the forest. We need not look elsewhere to find mysticism and intrigue, we exists.
"It is very difficult to explain this feeling to anyone who is entirely without it. The individual feels the nothingness of human desires and aims and the sublimity and marvelous order which reveal themselves both in nature and the world of thought. He [the experiencer] looks upon individual existence as a sort of prison and wants to experience the universe as a single, significant whole" --Albert Einstein
-------------------- The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." Posts: 12853 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Hancock also covers a lot of ground which will feature also in my upcoming book, especially the work of Jeremy Narby, author of THE COSMIC SERPENT: DNA AND THE ORIGINS OF KNOWLEDGE (1995) who, following his own ayahausca experiences with native peoples in the Upper Amazon, came to the stunning conclusion that since all life breaks down into the same molecule, i.e. DNA, interactions take place on a sub-atomic level between our DNA and that of the rest of the plant and animal kingdom. It was an idea he used to explain why the indigenous peoples of the Upper Amazon related how their vast knowledge of the plant world, involving tens of thousands of species, was obtained by shamans from the spirit world during ayahuasca sessions. Remember, the principal active ingredient of ayahuasca is DMT.
Graham Hancock's SUPERNATURAL touches on the story of Francis Crick, the Cambridge astrobiologist who cracked the DNA code in the 1950s. Something he points out, and I will take further, is that in 2004, following his death at the age of 84, it was revealed that he had regularly used LSD in his younger days (then still legal in this country),and that it was whilst on a trip that the structure of the DNA molecule was revealed to him. Strange then that Crick, as Hancock's points out (and I will do too), went on to champion the concept of Panspermia, the possibility that the building blocks of life came originally from deep space. Did this view of life also derive from his drug experiences? The concept of panspermia was also given full support by the leading astronomer and rebel astrophysicist Sir Frederick Hoyle before his death at the age of 86 in 2001.
Starting off a book by taking drugs might seem like literary suicide, and let's face the scholarly community are going to have a field day with SUPERNATURAL. However, taking the bull by the horns was probably the right decision for Hancock to have made, for he certainly shows the relevance of his own experiences. Moreover, you just know that in the true Terence McKenna style (see his brilliant INVISIBLE LANDSCAPES), that if you do do hallucinogens then you are going to see the world in a completely different light, and come up new ideas that are rarely available to you under usual circumstances.
I thoroughly recommend SUPERNATURAL to anyone out there. It is a very important book indeed that pulls together so many strands that might at first appear completely separate to each other. The whole book is the way forward, and you will need to get up to speed on this one, I assure you.
-------------------- The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." Posts: 12853 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by cleasterwood: P.S. Should have also added that if you reverse the biblical chronology to confirm a date when 'Adam and Eve' existed, you get a date of around 4000 BC. Which as we all know is incorrect. Humans have been around much longer than that.
you are correct on all accounts but unfortunately are beating your head against a brick wall trying to convince some of these people despite the many solid facts you've stated. Just for the record though - I hear what you're saying. Posts: 875 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
A lot of the stuff in the Bible is just plain bull s***. Does anyone here actually still believe that some of this stuff happened as the "good book" says it did?
I don't.
I'm not certain I believe one word in that agenda-driven piece of right wing propaganda. A global flood? The world created in seven days? Eve made from a guy's rib? The Tower of Babel? Parting of the Red Sea? Come on!
Christianity, much like the Muslim religion, made it's converts at the point of a sword, not the strength of it's teachings.
I feel a bit sorry for people like Heather, too, who are also deluding themselves into believing that what they are studying is the truth, too. On the other hand, I can see that as a response to all the religious brain-washing we are all given when we're little kids going to Sunday school.
Posts: 318 | From: Dorm Room | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:That is what I think many of us really long for, not a bunch of "FLUFF"
Both sides are working against one another .............one side is just more """"subtle"""...
TTFN, enjoy the shadows.
Hi Ishtar,
You seem to be equating Christianity with Pagan Worship, but there is no comparison. While both seem to preach doing no harm to others, Christianity actually has done a great deal of harm towards others over the ages, to the point of witch-hunts, genocide, torture, inquistions and holy wars. It also mandates inequality between the sexes which some men justify for domestic abuse. Pagan worship has no such history and just seeks to be one with the earth. It's a more peaceful religion, and, in my view, anyway, a much healthier one. Anything that we Pagans have said or done ourselves has been in mere response to what the Christians have done to us.
And, far from shadows, Pagan Worship is a bright, ethereal religion that truly does seek to be one with the earth.
Jason, you are entitled to your opinion about me.
Bright Blessings!
Heather
(All dates "era vulgaris" = Christian Era)
314 Immediately after its full legalisation, the Christian Church attacks the Gentiles: The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis. 324 Emperor Constantine declares Christianism as the only official Religion of the Roman Empire. In Dydima, Minor Asia, he sacks the Oracle of the God Apollo and tortures the pagan priests to death. He also evicts all the Gentiles from Mt. Athos and destroys all the local Hellenic Temples. 326 Emperor Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the Temple of the God Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and many Temples of the Goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek, etc. 330 Emperor Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the pagan Temples of Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire. 335 Emperor Constantine sacks many pagan Temples of Minor Asia and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of "all magicians and soothsayers". Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatrus. 341 Emperor Flavius Julius Constantius persecutes "all the soothsayers and the Hellenists". Many Gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed. 346 New large-scale persecutions against the Gentiles in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as... "magician". 353 An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifices and "idols". 354 A new edict orders the closing of all the pagan Temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of pagan priests. 354 A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the pagan Temples and the execution of all "idolaters". First burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are being organised next to the closed pagan Temples. A major part of the holy architecture of the Gentiles turns to lime. 357 Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded). 359 In Skythopolis, Syria, the Christians organise the first death camps for the torture and executions of the arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire. 361
to 363 Religious tolerance and restoration of the pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the pagan Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus. 363 Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June). 364 Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. 364 An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination ("sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi curiositas"). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of the pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in pagan rituals, even private ones. 365 An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids the Gentile officers of the army to command Christian soldiers. 370 Emperor Valens orders a tremendous persecution of the Gentiles in all the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other Gentiles, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the squares of the cities of the Eastern Empire. All the friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated. 372 Emperor Valens orders the governor of Minor Asia to exterminate all the Hellenes and all documents of their wisdom. 373 New prohibition of all Divination methods. The term "pagan" (pagani, villagers) is introduced by the Christians to lessen the Gentiles. 375 The Temple of God Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down by the Christians. 380 On 27th February, Christianism becomes the exclusive Religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that "all the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter". The non-Christians are called "loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind". In another edict Theodosius calls "insane" those that do not believe to the Christian God and outlaws all disagreements with the Church dogmas. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the pagan Temples of his area. The Christian priests lead the hungry mob against the Temple of Goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 years old hierophant Nestorius ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of mental darkness over the human race. 381 On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives of all their rights the Christians that return back to the pagan Religion. In all the Eastern Empire the pagan Temples and Libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws even the simple visits to the Temples of the Hellenes. In Constantinople, the Temple of Goddess Aphrodite is turned to brothel and the Temples of Sun and Artemis to stables. 382 "Hellelu-jah" (Glory to Yahweh) is imposed in the Christian mass. 384 Emperor Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated Christian, to cooperate with the local bishops and destroy the Temples of the Gentiles in Northern Greece and Minor Asia. 385
to 388 Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and bishop ("Saint") Marcellus with his gangs scour the countryside and sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic Temples, shrines and altars. Among others they destroy the Temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the Temple of Zeus in Apamea, the Temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the Temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent Gentiles from all sides of the Empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis. 386 Emperor Theodosius outlaws (16th June) the care of the sacked pagan Temples. 388 Public talks on religious subjects are also outlawed by Theodosius. The old orator Libanius sends his famous Epistle "Pro Templis" to Theodosius with the hope that the few remaining Hellenic Temples will be respected and spared. 389
to 390 All non-Christian date-methods are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood the cities of the Middle East and Egypt and destroy statues, altars, Libraries and pagan Temples and lynch the Gentiles. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against the Gentiles, turns the Temple of Dionysos into a Christian church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the Temple of Zeus and burlesque the pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The Christian mob profanes the cult images. 391 On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to pagan Temples but also looking at the vandalised statues. New heavy persecutions all around the Empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, the Gentiles, led by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights they lock themselves inside the fortified Temple of God Serapis (The Serapeion). After a violent siege, the Christians take over the building, demolish it, burn its famous Library and profane the cult images. 392 On 8th November, the Emperor Theodosius outlaws all the non-Christian rituals and names them "superstitions of the Gentiles" (gentilicia superstitio). New full scale persecutions against the Gentiles. The Mysteries of Samothrace are ended and the priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop ("Saint") Epiphanius and "Saint" Tychon destroy almost all the Temples of the island and exterminate thousands of Gentiles. The local Mysteries of Goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius' edict declares: "the ones that won't obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living in that island". The Gentiles revolt against the Emperor and the Church in Petra, Aeropolis, Rafia, Gaza, Baalbek and other cities of the Middle East. 393 The Pythian Games, the Aktia Games and the Olympic Games are outlawed as part of the Hellenic "idolatry". The Christians sack the Temples of Olympia. 395 Two new edicts (22nd July and 7th August) cause new persecutions against the Gentiles. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius directs the hordes of the baptised Goths (led by Alaric) to the country of the Hellenes. Encouraged by Christian monks the barbarians sack and burn many cities (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura, Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable Gentile Hellenes and burn down all the Temples. Among others, they burn down the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all its priests (including the hierophant of Mithras Hilarius). 396 On 7th December, a new edict by Emperor Arcadius orders that paganism be treated as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining pagan priests and hierophants. 397 "Demolish them!". Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all the still standing pagan Temples to be demolished. 398 The Fourth Church Council of Carthage prohibits to everybody, including to the Christian bishops, the study of the books of the Gentiles. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza, demolishes almost all the pagan Temples of his city (except 9 of them that remain active). 399 With a new edict (13th July) Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all the still standing pagan Temples, mainly in the countryside, to be immediately demolished. 400 Bishop Nicetas destroys the Oracle of the God Dionysus in Vesai and baptises all the Gentiles of this area. 401 The Christian mob of Carthage lynches Gentiles and destroys Temples and "idols". In Gaza too, the local bishop (also a.."Saint") Porphyrius sends his followers to lynch Gentiles and to demolish the remaining 9 still active Temples of the city. The 15th Council of Chalkedon orders all the Christians that still keep good relations with their gentile relatives to be excommunicated (even after their death). 405 John Chrysostom sends hordes of gray dressed monks armed with clubs and iron bars to destroy the "idols" in all the cities of Palestine. 406 John Chrysostom collects funds from rich Christian women to financially support the demolition of the Hellenic Temples. In Ephessus he orders the destruction of the famous Temple of Goddess Artemis. In Salamis, Cyprus, the "Saints" Epiphanius and Euty****s continue the persecutions of the Gentiles and the destruction of their Temples and sanctuaries. 407 A new edict outlaws once more all the non-Christian acts of worship. 408 The Emperor of the Western Empire Honorius and the Emperor of the Eastern Empire Arcadius order together all the sculptures of the pagan Temples to be either destroyed or to be taken away. Private ownership of pagan sculpture is also outlawed. The local bishops lead new heavy persecutions against the Gentiles and new book burning. The judges that have pity for the Gentiles are also persecuted. "Saint" Augustine massacres hundreds of protesting pagans in Calama, Algeria. 409 Once again, an edict orders Astrology and all methods of Divination to be punished by death. 415 In Alexandria, Egypt, the Christian mob, urged by the bishop Cyrillus, attacks a few days before the Judaeo-Christian Pascha (Easter) and cuts to pieces the famous and beautiful philosopher Hypatia. The pieces of her body, carried around by the Christian mob through the streets of Alexandria, are finally burned together with her books in a place called Cynaron. On 30th August, new persecutions start against all the pagan priests of North Africa who end their lives either crucified or burned alive. 416 The inquisitor Hypatius, alias "The Sword of God", exterminates the last Gentiles of Bithynia. In Constantinople (7th December) all non-Christian army officers, public employees and judges are dismissed. 423 Emperor Theodosius B declares (8th June) that the Religion of the Gentiles is nothing more than "demon worship" and orders all those who persist in practicing it to be punished by imprisonment and torture. 429 The Temple of Goddess Athena (Parthenon) on the Acropolis of Athens is sacked. The Athenian pagans are persecuted. 435 On 14th November, a new edict by Emperor Theodosius B orders the death penalty for all "heretics" and Gentiles of the Empire. Only Judaism is considered a legal non-Christian Religion. 438 Emperor Theodosius B issues an new edict (31st January) against the Gentiles, incriminating their "idolatry" as the reason of a recent plague (!) 440
to 450 The Christians demolish all the monuments, altars and Temples of Athens, Olympia, and other Greek cities. 448 Theodosius B orders all the non-Christian books to be burned. 450 All the Temples of Aphrodisias (City of Goddess Aphrodite) are demolished and all its Libraries burned down. The city is renamed Stavroupolis (City of the Cross). 451 New edict by Emperor Theodosius B (4th November) emphasises that "idolatry" is punished by death. 457
to 491 Sporadic persecutions against the Gentiles of the Eastern Empire. Among others, the physician Jacobus and the philosopher Gessius are executed. Severianus, Herestios, Zosimus, Isidorus and others are tortured and imprisoned. The proselytiser Conon and his followers exterminate the last Gentiles of Imbros Island, Norheast Aegean Sea. The last worshippers of Lavranius Zeus are exterminated in Cyprus. 482
to 488 The majority of the Gentiles of Minor Asia are exterminated after a desperate revolt against the Emperor and the Church. 486 More "underground" pagan priests are discovered, arrested, burlesqued, tortured and executed in Alexandria, Egypt. 515 Baptism becomes obligatory even for those that already say they are Christians. The Emperor of Constantinople Anastasius orders the massacre of the Gentiles in the Arabian city Zoara and the demolition of the Temple of local God Theandrites. 528 Emperor Jutprada (Justinianus) outlaws the "alternative" Olympian Games of Antioch. He also orders the execution (by fire, crucifixion, tearing to pieces by wild beasts or cutting to pieces by iron nails) of all who practice "sorcery, divination, magic or idolatry" and prohibits all teachings by the Gentiles ("..the ones suffering from the blasphemous insanity of the Hellenes"). 529 Emperor Justinianus outlaws the Athenian Philosophical Academy and has its property confiscated. 532 The inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus, a fanatic monk, leads a crusade against the Gentiles of Minor Asia. 542 Emperor Justinianus allows the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus to convert the Gentiles of Phrygia, Caria and Lydia, Minor Asia. Within 35 years of this crusade, 99 churches and 12 monasteries are built on the sites of demolished pagan Temples. 546 Hundreds of Gentiles are put to death in Constantinople by the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus. 556 Emperor Justinianus orders the notorious inquisitor Amantius to go to Antioch, to find, arrest, torture and exterminate the last Gentiles of the city and burn all the private libraries down. 562 Mass arrests, burlesquing, tortures, imprisonments and executions of Gentile Hellenes in Athens, Antioch, Palmyra and Constantinople.
578
to 582 The Christians torture and crucify Gentile Hellenes all around the Eastern Empire, and exterminate the last Gentiles of Heliopolis (Baalbek). 580 The Christian inquisitors attack a secret Temple of Zeus in Antioch. The priest commits suicide, but the rest Gentiles are arrested. All the prisoners, the Vice Governor Anatolius included, are tortured and sent to Constantinople to face trial. Sentenced to death they are thrown to the lions. The wild animals being unwilling to tear them to pieces, they end up crucified. Their dead bodies are dragged in the streets by the Christian mob and afterwards thrown unburied in the dump. 583 New persecutions against the Gentile Hellenes by the Emperor Mauricius. 590 In all the Eastern Empire the Christian accusers "discover" pagan conspiracies. New storm of torture and executions. 692 The "Penthekto" Council of Constantinople prohibits the remains of Calends, Brumalia, Anthesteria, and other pagan / Dionysian celebrations. 804 The Gentile Hellenes of Mesa Mani (Cape Tainaron, Lakonia, Greece) resist successfully the attempt of Tarasius, Patriarch of Constantinople, to convert them to Christianity.
850
to 860 Violent conversion of the last Gentile Hellenes of Mesa Mani by the Armenian "Saint" Nikon.
posted
Heather, Nice post. It reminds me of Hitler! Christianity is responsible for the loss of the human heritage as a whole! Lest we forget the more modern persecutions brought on in the name of religion. The Salem Witch Trials, the Inquisition, destruction of the Mayan Codexes, and countless others. Not to mention all the children being molested by "priests".
This is one of the main reasons I don't practice Christianity. That and well, as far as Idol worship, I think they're the biggest offenders! The Bible says: "Thou shalt not bow down before any graven image of what is in Heaven or on Earth." Yet every time you walk into a church and you kneel to pray, you are breaking this rule. Why you ask? Because you are bowing down before Christ on the Cross, a graven image! Most Christians don't even realize it or they just discount it altogether. I guess they don't read their Bibles good enough. Only one Christian based religion doesn't break this rule and I believe it is Jehovah's Witnesses. None of their churches have graven images.
See I grew up Hell Fire and Brimstone Baptist. I was abused, in more ways than one, by a "Christian" step-father. Did the Christian's God help me? No, I was left to suffer from the time I was 8 until I was 17! The Creator, whomever you chose to call him, allowed free will to take away my childhood. I found strength in prayer, yes, but I never called the Creator, God. I still do it today, "Oh Great Creator, bless this day and keep all whom we love safe and healthy. Let Evil not harm those who reside in this dwelling." During Hurricane Wilma, I said, "Great Creator, keep all our neighbors safe. Protect us all from harm." We may have lost power for 2 weeks, but the number of deaths were minimul and they occured AFTER the storm passed. The Creator heard my prayer.
You don't have to pray to God, you just have to pray to the Creator, whether male or female. Which I believe there must one in order to have the other. There is a God and Goddess, there is the Good side and the Bad side to the Creator. I say it's two sides of the same coin. Christians say it's Satan and God as separate entities. You must have light to have dark. There must be evil to balance the good. There must be a female to balance the male. You can't have any of these without taking the other into account.
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