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Author Topic:   Father Chrirstmas
Sweetness
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From: Oak Glen, Bellville, Cape Town South Africa
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posted 12-03-2004 21:43     Click Here to See the Profile for Sweetness     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
why do we as peole tell the kids there is a father christmas and wat is the sory of father christmas, from were do it begin, and the meaning of the chrismas tree were in the bible is a christmas tree Thanks

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rockessence
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posted 12-04-2004 01:46     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From "Articles" section at www.bocksaga.com

28th May 2003
The Origin of Santa Claus.

SANTA CLAUS, OR PLAIN SANTA, OR SANT NIKOLAS IS A PERSON KNOWN ALL OVER THE PLANET, BUT NOBODY SEEMS TO KNOW WHO HE WAS ORIGINALLY, AND FROM WHERE THE STORY ORIGINATED.

MANY LOCALITIES IN THE WORLD ARE TRYING TO ADOPT HIM, BE HIS ”HOME”, BUT PERHAPS BEST KNOWN IS FINLAND, SO IT'S TIME TO REVEAL IT TO ALL PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY CHILDREN, TO KNOW THAT THE LETTERS THEY ARE WRITING FOR HIM, BY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, EVERY YEAR, ARE COMING TO THE RIGHT ADDRESS, IF SENT TO FINLAND.

IN FINNISH, SANTA IS CALLED ”JOULU PUKKI” (CHRISTMAS BOCK) WHICH NAME IS ALREADY TELLING US THAT HE WAS A MEMBER OF THE BOCK FAMILY.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, HE WAS THE HEAD OF THE FAMILY, THE HIMMEL BOCKEN BALDER PAER, ALSO KNOWN AS THE GOD OF HEAVEN.

HIS SECOND SON, THE SOL BOCKEN BALDAER (THE SUN BOCK) WAS WITH HIM, THEY WERE DISTINGUISHED FROM THEIR HAT, FATHER HAD A TASSEL IN HIS HAT AND A LONG WHITE BEARD, SON HAD THE ”BOCK'S BEARD” AND A HAT WITHOUT A TASSEL.

FATHER CHRISTMAS WAS WEARING A LONG RED COAT WITH WHITE HEMS AND WHITE BELT, HIS SON HAD GREEN CLOTHING, AND THEIR SLEIGH WAS PULLED BY EIGHT REINDEERS! SANTA'S WIFE WAS THE ”MAATAR”IN FINNISH, ”JOULUMUORI”, THE GODDESS OF EARTH, SHE HAD WHITE COAT WITH RED BELT.

Seppo, the ”Moon Bocken Balder”, the King, and Maya, the Goddess of love, also having moon as her symbol, were stationed at Kajaani Castle during those 200 years, teaching the Lappland area. (Moon reflecting the light of Sun, the Ukko.)

Also the word ”Santa” has to be explained. It is derived from the word ”Sant” (true) or ”Saint”, as ”Ukko” was of course the highest ”Saint” in the world.

But there is more to it, SA stand for ”Asernas Sun”, N is for North Star, the star of intelligence, and T is the ”Tor” (toor), is known in Scandinavia as ”Thor”. Asernas being the ruling classes, the ”Pi-ru-ett” (circle), and the ”Ros-ett” ancestry.

What then about the word ”Nikolas”? It's ”Nik” stands for ”Naek” in finnish, which is the ”Ukko” (rather his sexual organ, from which comes the seed for all people) or just the head of the family, at heaven, actually him being the true Allfather to all people.

But what about the finnish word ”Joulu”? It comes from the ”rot” (root) word ”Hjul” (spelled same way) what means a round gold-shining plate, the SUN, the plate being ”levy” in finnish, in which ”le” means to smile and ”vy” a beautiful scenery, and that's why we always draw sun smiling.

A Greek word Chrestos, means a GOOD (God) PERSON, and Santa, if any, is a good person, he is the only Saint who gives gifts out. But of the word Christmas the part ”Christ” comes from the finnish word ”risti” (cros) what you can see in the flag of Finland, blue cros on white back-round. They are the colours of Svan-Suometar, the Wife of Sun Bock, she had white gown with blue belt, she was the Stem Mother of all people, later the All-man-Akka, from where we got the word Almanac. Other Scandinavian countries having a cross at their flags with different colours.
The cross in the flag having a symbolic meaning for increasing intelligency and fertility, Finland being the last country to practice it.

But why in Lappland? Well, at 1020 Pope in Rome gave an order that Uden Land (in Finland) from where all people in the Globe were teached and directed for harmonius and peacefull life, had to be destroyed and at 1050 that order was carried out by Vatican's swiss mercenary army.
They were lead by the catholic king of Sweden, Anund Jacob, but he died at the first day of invasion, two bishops were with the armed force, one from Sweden, one from Russia.

UKKO AND HIS FAMILY ESCAPED THE JOINT INTRUDERS TO LAPPLAND, TO STAY THERE FOR TWO HUNDRED YEARS, AFTER WHICH TIME THE KING OF SWEDEN ALLOWED THEM TO RETURN TO THEIR FORMER HOMESITES AT SNAPPER-TUNA, AT SOUTH OF FINLAND, BUT THEY WERE PROHIBITED TO TELL THIS SANTA STORY, WHICH IS TRUE!

THE LOCATION THERE AT LAPPLAND, KORVATUNTURI, (EAR MOUNTAIN) HAS SINCE THEN BEEN AT THE EXACT BORDER OF RUSSIA AND FINLAND, THUS PREVENTING ANYONE TO GO THERE AS THE BORDER ZONE IS OF NO ENTRY ZONE, SO BOTH CHURCHES, GREEK AND ROMAN, FELT SAFE AS THEY THOUGHT THAT PEOPLE WOULD SOON FORGET THE BEING OF SANTA, BUT AS WE KNOW, THE CHILDREN OF THE WORLD WILL NOT LET THAT HAPPEN, THEY WILL NOT FORGET HIM.

BISHOPS IN ENGLAND TRIED COUPLE OF YEARS AGO TO CODEMN HIS BEING, SAYING THAT HE DOES NOT BELONG TO CHRISTIANITY, BUT ACTUALLY CHRISTIANITY IS BASED ON THIS PHILOSOPHY, ALL HOLYDAYS ARE FROM MUCH EARLIER DATES, X:MAS, EASTER AND ALL OTHERS ALSO. (THE CHRIST'S EXACT BIRTH-YEAR OR DAY IS NOT KNOWN)

NOW WE CAN TELL TO ALL CHILDREN THAT THERE ARE TRUE FAIRYTALES! NAMES AND LOCALITIES DO TELL SO, WHEN THEY ARE ”DECODED” WITH THE ”BOCK SAGA” SYSTEM, THE ALPHABET SOUND SYSTEM FROM THE ANCIENT ROT (ROOT) AND VAN LANGUAGES, PRESENT SWEDISH (SPOKEN IN FINLAND) AND FINNISH, TOLD BY IOR BOCK.

BY THE WAY, MANY SYMBOLS OF UNKNOWN PAST AND FORGOTTEN HIGH CULTURE AND CIVILIZATION THAT ONCE ENCOMPASSED THE WHOLE WORLD, AT THE PARADISE-TIME, ARE TO BE FOUND HERE IN FINLAND, LIKE THE FLAG, THE COAT OF ARMS, NAMES OF MANY LOCALITIES, LIKE SUOMI, FINLAND, HELSINKI ETC ETC, AND FAIRYTALES, WHICH, AS WE JUST HAVE SEEN, MAY TURN OUT TO BE TRUE, TO PROVE IT, ”SANTA” BEING IT'S LIVING SYMBOL.

IOR BOCK, WHO TOLD THIS STORY, IS THE LAST MEMBER OF THE ORIGINAL FAMILY, THE LAST MOON BOCKEN BALDER, GREAT TEACHER, NOW 61. LAST UKKO DIED 1898, LAST AKKA 1916, LAST MAYA 1976.

LEO NYGREN
HELSINKI FINLAND
leo.nygren@kolumbus.fi

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Brig
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posted 12-04-2004 16:37     Click Here to See the Profile for Brig     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
According to Catholic research; Santa Claus is the american misprounciation of Saint Nicholas. Try saying Saint Nicholas really fast and you might come up with Santa Claus. Saint Nicholas was a monk of the Catholic Church who delighted in making toys for the village children out of wood. The Santa story grew from that. Communist countries saw the fun children had with Santa Claus, Kris Kringle, Father Christmas (and many other names) but instead of adopting the western Santa Claus, they, instead, created Father Frost to play the role. Check out Santa Claus on the Web for further information. BTW Saint Nicholas, I think, was a Turkish Monk of the Catholic Church. The Santa Claus that we all are so familiar with was primarily created by Clement Moores "A Night before Christmas". This poem established Santa as a short, plump,jolly person, dressed in red. According to Moore, Santa came from the North Pole riding in a sleigh pulled by 8 tiny reindeer. Prior to the famous poem, a man named Thomas Nast drew the most nearly like today's Santa, but he was often dressed in green, blue or brown. Santas before Nast and Moore often had him tall and thin, pleasant or sad faced, carrying his toys on a donkey, horse, or his back. His outfit was usually a long robe or a cape like ancient monks tended to wear. The story of Saint Nicholas, alias Santa Claus is a very interesting one. A good library should have several good books on the evolution of Santa Claus.Neither Santa nor the Christmas tree occur in the Bible. Todays Christmas tree actually was originally a part of a pagan festival commemorating the arrival of winter. Because christian tradition (thats not in the bible either) says that the trees bloomed on that first Christmas when Christ was born. So the pagan winter solstice tree was turned in a blooming (the ornaments) Christmas tree.

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Boreas
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posted 12-05-2004 00:00     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Read "When Santa Was A Shaman" by Tony van Rentergem (Bantam Books 1996). It is the only publication that so far deal with this question - in length and extent.

What Spiritwalker and Brig is refering is basicly the christian "twist" on the old, and worldwide tradition - of celebrating midwinter solistice.

In all the "pagan" cultures of the globe we find that 24/12 used to be the "last day of the last month" - representing the turning point of the Sun. In most pagan cultures people obviously kept the Sun as a central and essential basis for their lives. As well as to their "philosophies, traditions and culture". We often hear that these pagans were "sun-worshipers" - AND that none of these cultures did survive the conquests of mideval and modern time...

To all arctic people the significance of the seasons are especially important, - since winters gets harsher and summers shorter - the further north one resides. Thus we find SOME of the clearest reminiscenses of our old, original culture in the artical cultures.

One of them is The Olde Man, - the one all Russian children know as "Fader Frost" or "King Winter". In Scandinavia he is called "Necklas"/"Nisse", Germany "Weinachtsmann", Dutch "SinterClas" as well as the latin "Baba Natale". Not to forget the synonoyms "Father Christmess", and "Santa Claus".

The explaination of the historical circumstances behind the myth of the Christmas-man is not very well known yet. But it is a wide opinion that the "World Santa Claus Centre" in the city of Rovaniemi, Northern Finland is the one most close to the source of this worl-wide tradition. That still exist.

According to old and genuine Finnish folklore the only remains of the REAL Santa Necklas is to be found in the small village of Korvatunturi in Northern Finland, - where once the real Santa Neck-Klas actually existed once. As the main male person in the old Kingdom of Finland. Which, - according to the Nordic Mythology - is the oldest and therefore the original home to ALL artical people. So, - that OLD original family neccesarily had to produce all the royal sidelines that (after ice-time) spread to ALL of artical Europe and Asia. From where they reproduced to populate all these lands in the different kingdoms/populations/nations.

Thus the head of this "First family" was duely celebrated at each solistice, as they were marked as the central celebrations of the year. During midsummer the highligth of the celebraqtions were the making of the new children in the land, - whereas midwinter solistice were dedicated to our history and origin, as well as the further origination of next years child-births.

Central to the Midwinter celebration were the old Allfather, also known as "The King of Kings" - since all artical Kings once descended from the oldest articals, being the Finnish royal family. Consequently the Necklas-figure was highly respected, as a vital and essential archetype to which we owe our entire existence, - as culture as well as individuals.

Saint = True
Neck = Neck/Naked
Clas = Cluster

All wine-berries, such as wine-grapes - comes in clusters. As do the seeds of life, as they leave the "white stone of the wise" as "white perls" - to enter the phallic channel and find "the fertile ground". The head of the Finnish kingfamily himself, called "our true (original) maker" became the foremost figure for the midwinter solistice.

Another clue to the original area of the real Sant Necklas is found by adressing the areas were reindeers are most common...

According to our old Nordic traditions (and calendars) does the christmas START on Tuesday the 6th of December, (6/6) with the "Mans day", - publicly known as the "Necklas` Day". Six days later, the 12/12 we have the "Females day", also known as "Santa Lucia", before they meet to the big celebrarion of "life, love and laugther" - during an entire week, - starting 24/12.

The Scandinavians still call Christmass "Jul", meaning "Wheel". Refereing to "cyclys", as in the "Life-wheel" of all plants and animals, including ourselves. Marked at the turning-points of the big cyclus of cause of all life on this planet, - the Sun.

Today Santa Claus is the only remaining archetype of the original Man, as old, as father and as fathers father - able to succesfully perpetuate his nature and culture on this globe. According to Tony van Rentergem the historical basis for this European legend and tradition is some 9.000 years old. Thus the celebration of the old "King of Kings" can also be found as A basis in the present Greek-Roman, Arabian and Jewish traditions too. But, - contrary to the aritical traditions they turnes "The Lords" or "The Good Man" into abstracttions, turning the Pater Familias of the human family into a phantom, and tradition into superstition and religion.

Thats why Santa is the closest naturally born and developed kids may get - to understand the concept of "God".

Marry Christ Mess!


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rockessence
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posted 12-05-2004 00:27     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome back Boreas! Always a great pleasure to read your posts.

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JohnE
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posted 12-05-2004 12:06     Click Here to See the Profile for JohnE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That may explain Rudolph’s red nose. Hoho

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JohnE
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posted 12-05-2004 15:38     Click Here to See the Profile for JohnE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
……and taking the piss.

Suppose I better get back to hell before I upset anyone. LOL
Sometimes you just gotta look the old devil in the eye and spit.

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Brig
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posted 12-05-2004 18:07     Click Here to See the Profile for Brig     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Boy you guys can sure read a lot into a simple fairytale by Clement Moore. I wonder what you would do with Goldilocks and the Three Bears? Spiritwalker, how else, pray tell, could a person see "fairies", unless with the aid of the white and red mushroom? West Virginia Moonshine has been known to conjure up fairies;(and Mothmen) but they're usually riding pink elephants and purple zebras

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rockessence
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posted 12-05-2004 20:15     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry Brig,
Clement Moore stole the poem from a less well-known colleague right after the guy died!

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JohnE
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posted 12-05-2004 21:31     Click Here to See the Profile for JohnE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Brig it could help to throw open the door of perception just to believe in things.
For instance I live in a land where there are legends of giants. Now I have never seen one but decided even though no remains have ever been found that I would accept that they did in fact once exist. I crossed that mental threshold of doubt, then I could see the evidence of their existence everywhere. I am not about to try to convince anyone of this view nor do I care for anyone else’s opinion in the matter.
This same goes for the fairies and alas also demons.

About the only thing I don’t believe in is the Argon-argon dating technique and the geological time line, these are the devils own tools. Geologists are men bent on lining their pockets with the treasures of the earth, you don’t seriously think they wouldn’t feed the whole world a complete fabrication to protect their own interests and very carefully vet anyone planing to join their ranks to ensure that the lie is maintained.
I believe they do.

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rockessence
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posted 12-06-2004 00:14     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
JohnE,
I would love to know where it is you live! As to the "missing" remains of the giants, it seems that cremation was a widespread practice until sometime after the end of ice-time, around 10,500BP.

The Bock saga material www.bocksaga.de www.bocksaga.de tells of the death rites for the elders, the carying of the body to the prepared pyre, and the taking of the ashes to the "family tree" of which each family had one. The name "Ash" tree comes from this. The Aser used ancient oaks. When the HRE armies wreaked destruction throughout Finland, in order to wipe out the last and oldest of the "heathen" hiden pagan King-lines, they cut down all the "Family trees".

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Boreas
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posted 12-06-2004 02:03     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dana Larsens writings is pretty much based on Rentergems works, - with an extra focus on the old "party-drugs", hemp and mushrooms.

Both the historical and the celebrative traditions behind X-mas can be found all around the globe - with a special richness in the north, where the midwinter period is the most grave.

Taken that all these nature-people have similar christmas traditions we may conclude that Christmas and Santa are MUCH older than the christian faiths and belief-systems. Rentergem gives a time-span of 9-10.000 years for the earliest signs (cave-paintings) recalling the "Proto-Santa".

Both Larsen and Rentergem are highly relevant to anyone trying to understand the historical (actual) reality that led to the figure and the myth of Father Christmas, as we know it. Given its old age - AND its vivid appearance still in our time - it may be fair to say that the historical truth behind the legend of Santa Claus is as real and important as, say, the legend of Atlantis...

Not to forget that both legends actually is connected to the same period and culture that created all our historical mythologies. That`s why Santa has so much in common with Jahve, Dio and Allah. As a reminisence of the ancient All-Father-figure, that once existed ON the planet.

Leo Nygrens essay (above) is pretty close to the bone. Check also; http://groups.msn.com/965172qg02rbm4ek3a6e7udur5/_homepage.msnw?pgmarket=en-us

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Brig
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posted 12-06-2004 17:00     Click Here to See the Profile for Brig     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rockessance: I wasn't aware that Clement Moore was a plagiarist. But whether he was or wasn't doesn't change the fact that Clements vision of Santa Claus is the one that has best stood the test of time and still represents the modern Santa. As far as fairies are concerned; the only way you're going to see tiny winged fairies is if you're on something. Fairy mushrooms got that assiociation for obvious reasons. The fairy legend is most likely based on an actual people; but even the mists of time doesn't totally hide the fact that the "little people" were not all that little. Normal humans were known to marry them. I wanna see the conjugal bed of a fairy the size of your thumb and a normal 160 pound human. Winged ,tiny ,fairies were the creation of imaginative, victorians. Look to historical myths for indications of the true nature of fairies. Morgan La Fey, half sister to King Arthur was supposed to be half fairy; thus her name La Fey, meaning Morgan the fairy. Fairies are believed to be the dimmly remembered people that existed in various parts of the world before being pushed to extinction by larger, stronger, peoples. Though they were small compared to the people of that day, they were not tiny; nor winged. ies. Morgan la Fey, by her very name was considered a fairy or at lest half fairy; yet she was the half sister of King Arthur (I'm not gettin into the argument as to whether he existed). 80% of the English believe Arthur existed.

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docyabut
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posted 12-06-2004 19:10     Click Here to See the Profile for docyabut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well I`d like to think the Santa was old St Nick, just a old man that made toys for the village children and the church made him a St. I think to many myths in history have been glamorized,or added on to, just to tell a good story. Like the case of Count Dacula how many stories have come from that?

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atalante
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posted 12-07-2004 10:42     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This link explains how to reserve your table for 8 to 100 people, at a traditional Finnish Christmas Party. The menu includes mushrooms, cottage cheese, and herring. And guests will be eating in traditional Lapp tents by the seaside.

http://www.christmascity.com/dynamic/eng/index.php?page=matkailu&func=paketti&subfunc=showOne&packid=71

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atalante
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posted 12-07-2004 11:12     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This link explains the authorship problem, in regard to the poem, Twas the Night Before Christmas. http://www.iment.com/maida/familytree/henry/xmas/livingstonmoore/index.htm

And the authorship controversy has been covered in some books, such as this one: http://www.iment.com/maida/familytree/henry/sources/authorunknown.htm

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 12-07-2004).]

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Boreas
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posted 12-07-2004 21:08     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Amazing link, Ata. Again thank you.


Great point that C. Moores story got a paralell in the earlier resitition by Henry Livingston (1808) - describing ("unfolding") the story of "Father Christmas".

Most litterates agree that the 19th century is our main source of litterature based on old stories of folklore, "kept by memory and told by oral and artistic expressions..."

Thus the Livingston-family have kept stories and reflections of an older, oral - but still complete - Christmas-myth. That is, the branch of the Livingston family who emigrated to America. Based on old European folklore, that were kept during the trans-atlantic crossing. Just like Norwegian escapees still salute Norways national day, all over Minnesota. AND "Norwegian Yuletide", of course.

Looking for the real sources, - the folkloristic background - of the christmass traditions we have to look to the "olde world", - from were the basic emigration to the land out west happened. Tony van Rentergem goes thruogh the oldest sources from all of Europe and links the tradition, (the figures and the symbols) of Christmas, were Santa and the Christmas three is the central symbols. Among many, - since the christmas-month was celebrated (as "Yuletide") all over Northern Eurasia. Were the Sun-cycle sets and rises again - turning the year - summing up and starting a new cycle of seasons...

The christmas celebration cal be followed back to pre-christian, so-called "pagan time". At that time it was celebrated (or "marked") as a "Midwinter Solistice" all over Europe and Asia, - even in the southern hemisphere. But the more north you go the more obvious does the midwinter and midsummer stand out as THE evenings of "marking, validating, respecting and celebrating" the aspects of life that one genuinly want to cheerish the most.

Today it is encyclopedic knowledge that the basic origin of the - still existing - chrstmas-traditions are to be found in the "pre-christian culture of Northern Europe and Scandinavia", were the sun-cycle was: "very important to a culture of Sun-Worshippers".

During the 10th millenium the Roman Church got a complete cultural dominion throughout Eurasia. As van Rentergem also observes there was this new, religious movement that slowly, but rather thourougly banned all practice of the old ("headon") folklore and the old, historical traditions. As the Roman church wanted to strengthen its political power, leveling their outcome, - it turned more fundamentalistic. During the 12th and 13th century there was NO "three-of-love" with candles burning - and alas - NO good old "Allfather-figure" presented, celebrated and sang to.

In those days the "Allfather" was minuitly described as the Lord of Faith, paced in the top of the skylift, in a place were Paradise were suspected to exist. So we had the two highest symbols - The Good, Universal Father (our origin), - AND the human conception and state of "happiness" (our birthrigth) - made alliterations, abstracts. Thus the only way to turn for "the meaning of life" was to be found in "the next life..."

The contrast to the old headon cultures were grim. But as "power rules" it became possible to erradicate many, - and completly change the content of the other "historical traditions" of the "savaged North".

By 1500 the Roman church had found "Newfound" land in the west -"Kingdoms of walth and richness" - that still hadn`t been "taxed" by St. Peters Only and Holy Roman Church. As their focus stayed with the meso-americans for a long while, we see that the surviviors of the old Scandinavian aristocracy, linked by their millenial old bonds to the German and British nobility - manage to brake away from the dominal bonds of the Chruch in Rome. By 1550 the Reformation is established in parts of Germany, France, England and all off Scandinavia.

One of the expressions of their newly won "cultural subjugation" was the brake of getting the old, pagan celebratives back into the Month, Week and Day of Christmas.
The original celebration was called "Yuletide" also in England and Germany, - as the most important, most priored and most validated, since its celebrative charachter is more than even national days. Even "family, king
nation" becomes timid when its time to celebrate our origin and history as humankind, in a scope thats "global", "universal" and eternal...

So the christmas celebration that occurs with the reformed church allows a lot of the old, headon customs back into play. Thus we see the first public picture of the "re-created tradition" ("Yule-tide") painted 1554, being the oldest known picture of Santa and The Christmas Three.

By then England, Holland and Germany as well as Scandinavia had started to restore the celebrational part of midwinter solistice. "Yule-tide" linguistically points to "Yul" - a sound which in Scandinavia still is written "jul" or "hjul". "Jul" refers to the midwinter festical still called "Jule-tid". And that only. While "hjul" translates to to "wheel" - and that only. But - as any Scandinavian can still confine - there is an obvious connection between the two sounds and their respective nature - as words. Relating wheel to The Wheel-of-Life, as the universal clock counts 12/24/0.

Which in turn wrap up the old saga-material that exposes and explaines to detail how the "three-of-life" (the Ash) is celebrated during MID-summer - as the end of the honeymoon and the creational day of new children. Given that the couple had been formerly agreeing during the MID-winter celebration, - when the "three-of-love" (the Spurce/Pine/Palm) were burning - symboling the attraction, the mating and the "coupling" of the comming parents.

Because the coupled in the mid-winter, mated in the spring and coupulated during midsummer. So that all the new villagers would arrive by the very start of spring - giving the best possibilities to survive the critical first year of his or her artical life...

Because this tradition secured their survival it was a lot of provicial and rural farmers who managed to keep most of the midwinter traditions - either in practice or as stories, legends and - evidently - as fairy-tails. But they all come from somewhere, - and this "somewhere" must have some cultural reality as basis.
Thanks to people like van Rentergem we may start to see the intrinsic value, the social relevance as well as the richness of the old, European headon culture, - which was basically sane, sensitive and scientific in their whereabouts. According to science the sun is still the closest, largest and only "thing" to blame or worship - for our mere existence. Not to forget the continuation of it...

Since the mideval eradication of the Eurasian culture there have been only parts left from the richness of the old culture.
Still many people and groups that have been busy recrating our understanding of the historical realities that formed the European antiquety. Where our few remaining legends and myths could still be explained, historically.

In a long process of investigating the roots of Christmas, Tony van Rentergem arrives in a distant antiquety, relating the origin to one "old Nordic God", known as Oden. Illustrated with old drawings, paintings and engravements - in rock - which still give some scarce information about the truth of the old Scandinavian culture.

Van Rentergem links this to the old Shaman traditions of the North, as the Sami people still practize it, somehow. But he also shows a row of picures covering a paralell profile, very similar to the one we all have of Sant Necklas. Thus the autor attaches the dancing Pan, the trisuled Neptun and many other expressions of one "good ol`, great and gracious", i.e. the universal father-figure. You know - as the very first father (of the first linguistical human beings) creating the first family of man.

Understanding that the "fairy-tales" are not ONLY for children to understand - we may find there actually was a time when the story of the allfather-figure called "Neck-Klas" was a matter of "cultural ownership" -due to the "archetypical affection" as a means of cultural/political power. Today we know that a Santa-figure, as the old, bearded Allfather, have existed in all old, pagan cultures. Even in the deepest of Africa and the most distant Australia there have been memories, symbols, tales or celebrations of an "All-father" AND a "Earth-mother".

Today we have been getting the more complete story behind Eurasian antiquety, as well as to the origin of the artical man and his culture. Today we know that the long bearded Santa, with his eigth bucks (also depicted as a 8 legged horse) in front of the sledge - was an Allfather-figure that actually DID exist. As the Head of Finnlands old royal family he represented the Head of ALL artical peoples, etnically. As their true "Allfather" he was the only rigthful bearer of long, red top-hat with a white globe on top, embrased by the red dress with pearlwhite rings as manchetes. Thus he had to dress up evry Dec. 6th as Santa Necklas Day is celebrated, starting the one mont long midwinter festival. The tradition and its symbols - being worn by the old king and queen themselves was also the long mont of all the fairy-tale-stories given to the children. Originally that was also the time to explaning the OLD "Story of Creation" to the kids, - gradually giving the frank and qualified answers to a favorite question of all children, trying to really understand its existential, social and emotional identity.

The Saga-material, backed by an anamolous archeology of the Helsinki area - tells how the core family of the artical populations -resided as the heads of Finland. Their capitol was Helsinki today, until a foreign invasion in the summer of 1050 forced them to flee to the very north of their country.
The male and female heads of the family moved as far north as neccesary to get to the source of the rivers running north, - into the White Sea. So they settled at the mountain of Korva-tunturi. Their oldest son though, being the rigthous King of Finland, manage to reside in the midle of what was left of the Finnish Kingdom, - in todays city of Kajaani.

So from 1050 to 1248 the original, culture of Eurasia still existed unchanged - in the north of Finnland. As the last chapter of a very old historical kingdom. By 1248 they close an agreement with the catholic Europe, represented by Swedens national leader, Birger Jarl, were the Finnish royals were granted peace, as they were allowed to move back to their family estates in the south. But only after giving up their power as royals - and keeping their mounth shot about their own present. As well as "adjusting" to the "new time and the new customs" - of mideval Rome...

So thats how Sant Neck Klas came to existence historically - in the Lappish (Same) areas of Finnland, where he actually resided on the mountain of Korvatunturi for 198 years. Before he ABDICATED - to give the pagan Finland peace - with the rest of Europe...

But before giving up their rigths and duties the old king-family managed to make their old head-man figure famous. As the "Yule-Man"/"Sant Neck-klas"/"Fader Frost", or "Christmas-man". Where the old man of the family had changed his 8 goat-bucks and carriage into 8 reindeer-bucks and a sledge. With bells ringing and spruce-decorations hanging, representing etc., etc.

In the later years there has been a growing interest to "owe" the figure of Santa - due to its popularity as an angle of sale and profit. But so far the Finns are actually the only ones with some genuine proof of having an old, genuine legend about Sant Necklas. In Finland its old, and traditionally associated to the rural area of Korvatunturi. Lately also to the Kajaani Castle ("The northernmost, genuin castle in the world"). But still the local authorities in the neighbouring city to Korvatunturi - that being Rovaniemi - got the money to build a recreational centre - aimed at hosting kids from Japan to England - that each Christmas writes Santa in Finland by the hundreds of thousands. Quite a number even pick up the expences of a roundtrip during christmas-week, with Concorde from Japan or London, - followed by reinsledge around the Necklas-village of Rovaniemi.

So there is no kidding around att all anymore, - with the story of Santa...

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Brig
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posted 12-08-2004 17:51     Click Here to See the Profile for Brig     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Do you suppose we've confused the kid enough? Sorry about that Sweetness. Some of these guys have an alias.....Grinch

[This message has been edited by Brig (edited 12-08-2004).]

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JohnE
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posted 12-08-2004 23:39     Click Here to See the Profile for JohnE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry rockessence I would like to have got back to you about this before now but can’t at the moment.

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Boreas
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posted 12-08-2004 23:42     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Repport from the market square;

550 charter-fligths will be arriving to Rovaniemi Airport in the most provincial, rural part of Northern Scandinavia this month. Most of them come from England and Europe, but parents and children from all parts of the world are visiting the World Necklas Center. Altogehter 120.000 guests will visit the adventure-center and get a drive by the legendary home of the old, real St. Necklas, - at the mountain of Korvatunturi.

The Sant Necklas center received more than 600.000 letters to Santa this year, which establish Rovaniemi as the leading Necklas-center in the world.

"Today it seems to be a common understanding that the Santa is Finnish", says Ahti Ahonen, manager at the Rovaniemi centre. Among the organized, "professional" Santas one have reached the understanding that the Finnish legend are the clearest - and most genuine - source we have on the legend of our universal Fader Christmas.

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JohnE
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posted 12-09-2004 20:12     Click Here to See the Profile for JohnE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
rockessence,
I live here in magic West Cornwall, not actually in the castle (I wish) but this is nearly the view from our front windows, the view out the back is even nicer and contrary to what anyone may think or believe one does not have to take an hallucinogen to see the little people. All one has to do is take a trip to the supermarket, the public house or the high street to observe humanity of the most diminutive stature, half the population seems to be under four ft. (1.20 m) tall.

I am convinced that every last trace of the giants has been hidden or destroyed by the hand-in-glove of temple or church and state, for the very obvious reason of their cultic power. I read somewhere in the Hebrew/Christian scriptures that they burnt the bones of the giants in a brick-kiln.

Proscribed too was ‘grove worship’ among the Oak and Hawthorn and the tenacious Ash of Ogham, the enlightenment tree of Odin and magical of Gwydion. Yggdrasil World Tree of the Norse, the enchanted chieftain tree the cosmic Ash that ‘courts the flash’, with its roots in Hel and its boughs supporting the heavens. Believed to originate in the great deep in the undersea land of Tethys and sacred to the sea god Poseidon it’s used for Druid wands and witch's besoms the boatman’s oar and weaver's beam.
Also the link of inner and outer worlds and a protection from snakes, drowning, illness too, it can induce prophetic dreams and loves divination. The Universal span connecting the three circles of existence...Abred, Gwynedd and Ceugant...past present and the future, or confusion balance and creative force in the circle to circle of rebirth, the passage to the final blessed land. http://www.novareinna.com/constellation/ash.html

It was Victoria’s love of Albert that allowed its dangerous reintroduction to a wider world. Imagine naked candle flame on a tree in a palace ballroom and porters standing by with buckets.

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JohnE
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posted 12-10-2004 18:55     Click Here to See the Profile for JohnE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
St Michaels Mount was once known as Cara Cowze in Clowze, or, The hoar rock in the wood, which is seen by some as a folk memory of when the sea was much further back, and the area covered in woodland. The tradition was most probably passed on from written records when the mount was a monastic settlement linked with Mont St Michael in Brittany. St Michael's Mount is also not far from the legendary lost land of Lyonesse. () The Mount was also the legendary abode of the giants Cormoran and his wife Cormelian (). Jack the Giant killer eventually defeated Cormoran, after the giant terrorised the surrounding lands.

One interesting story suggests the bones of a giant man were discovered when the church was rebuilt in the 14th century, after an earthquake destroyed the original structure. http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000139.html

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TetrahedreX
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posted 12-10-2004 20:17     Click Here to See the Profile for TetrahedreX     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry, but Santa Claus is not some Finnish god with the letters of his name representing a bunch of words. He was an actual Russian saint--Nicholas Claus.

[This message has been edited by TetrahedreX (edited 12-10-2004).]

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Spiritwalker
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posted 12-12-2004 13:09     Click Here to See the Profile for Spiritwalker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tetra , that too.

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Brig
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posted 12-12-2004 14:36     Click Here to See the Profile for Brig     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tetra: St. Nicholas "Claus"? Where did the "Claus" come from? Is "Claus" a common russian surname?

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Boreas
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posted 12-12-2004 20:12     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Aint that just the goddarn truth?!

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TetrahedreX
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posted 12-13-2004 09:45     Click Here to See the Profile for TetrahedreX     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My mistake. St. Nicholas actually came from Myra, as Spiritwalker mentioned. I remembered reading that there was some person named Nicholas Clause from Russia who was associated with that legend, but I can't find anything on him on Google. http://www.cptryon.org/prayer/adx/adnick.html

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Brig
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posted 12-13-2004 16:47     Click Here to See the Profile for Brig     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wasn't Myra in Turkey or close thereby?

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Boreas
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posted 12-13-2004 23:46     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And Rudolf, - wher` the heck did he come from? Moors?!

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Essan
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posted 12-14-2004 08:12     Click Here to See the Profile for Essan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I thought Father Christmas was a marketing gimmick invented by Coca-Cola........

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Brig
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posted 12-14-2004 11:15     Click Here to See the Profile for Brig     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Essan; The Coca-Cola company have certainly gone a long way toward supporting Clement Moores vision (or whomever). Especially the old Sunbloom paintings of the jolly old guy. I especially like the one of Santa shushing the little Schnauzer. I had a schnauzer that looked just like that one. I even talked a store manager outta one of his standees that showed that picture; it sits in front of our fireplace in the parlour each Christmas season.

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Brig
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posted 12-14-2004 11:25     Click Here to See the Profile for Brig     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rudolph was a marketing ploy by Mongomery Ward or Grants department store, I don't remember which but I think it was Wards. They got Gene Autry to sing the story, he didn't want to, but was under contract. Funny, how things turn out. That was Genes biggest and best remembered song.Actually Rudolph was a lush (drank too much eggnog) that made his nose red

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rockessence
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posted 12-14-2004 20:35     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hah!! That's great! The question remains: Why reindeer?

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Boreas
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posted 12-14-2004 23:21     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
And why Lapp-land? And why "The North Pole"?
And why/how the Spurce?!

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Sweetness
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posted 12-19-2004 03:49     Click Here to See the Profile for Sweetness     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Santa then reached in his bag and pulled out a FIR TREE and placed it before the mantle. "Teach the children that the pure green color of the stately fir tree remains green all year round, depicting the everlasting hope of mankind, all the needles point heavenward, making it a symbol of man's thoughts turning toward heaven."

He again reached into his bag and pulled out a brilliant STAR. "Teach the children that the star was the heavenly sign of promises long ago. God promised a Savior for the world, and the star was the sign of fulfillment of His promise."

He then reached into his bag and pulled out a CANDLE. "Teach the children that the candle symbolizes that Christ is the light of the world, and when we see this great light we are reminded of He who displaces the darkness."

Once again he reached into his bag and removed a WREATH and placed it on the tree. "Teach the children that the wreath symbolizes the real nature of love. Real love never ceases. Love is one continuous round of affection."

He then pulled from his bag and ornament of HIMSELF." Teach the children that I, Santa Clause symbolize the generosity and good will we feel during the month of December."

He then brought out a HOLLY LEAF. "Teach the children that the holly plant represents immortality. It represents the crown of thorns worn by our Savior. The red holly represents the blood shed by Him."

Next he pulled from his bag a GIFT and said, "Teach the children that God so loved the world that he gave ... Thanks be to God for his unspeakable gift. Teach the children that the wise men bowed before the holy babe and presented him with gold, frankincense and myrrh. We should always give gifts in the same spirit of the wise men."

Santa then reached in his bag and pulled out a CANDY CANE and hung it on the tree. "Teach the children that the candy cane represents the shepherds' crook. The crook on the staff helps to bring back strayed sheep to the flock. The candy cane is the symbol that we are our brother's keeper."

He reached in again and pulled out an ANGEL. "Teach the children that it was the angels that heralded in the glorious news of the Savior's birth. The angels sang 'Glory to God in the highest, on earth peace and good will toward men."

Suddenly I heard a soft twinkling sound, and from his bag he pulled out a BELL. "Teach the children that as the lost sheep are found by the sound of the bell, it should ring mankind to the fold. The bell symbolizes guidance and return.

Santa looked back and was pleased. He looked back at me and I saw that the twinkle was back in his eyes. He said, "Remember, teach the children the true meaning of Christmas and do not put me in the center, for I am but a humble servant of the One that is, and I bow down to worship Him, our Lord, our God."

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Sweetness
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posted 12-19-2004 04:00     Click Here to See the Profile for Sweetness     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks you are all great. Thanks for all the answers lol. Nice topic )))))
Have a great Christmas and enjoy your family and remamber to tell them you love them. And may all your dreams come true in the new year 2005

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Brig
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posted 12-19-2004 11:06     Click Here to See the Profile for Brig     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Merry Christmas, Sweetness

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sangmele
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posted 12-19-2004 16:31     Click Here to See the Profile for sangmele     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In 1931, the Coca-Cola company hired an artist named Haddon Sundblom to create the artwork for a massive Christmas advertising campaign they were preparing. Until then, the soda was primarily a summer drink, with sales dropping off sharply in the cooler winter months. Coke hoped to reverse this trend by somehow linking the drink to the winter holy, sorry, holidays ... and they decided the most effective way to do that would be to make Santa a Coke drinker. Sundblom was told to create a painting of Mr. Claus that the company could use in magazine advertisements. Sundblom's first brainstorm was to dump Nast's black and white Santa suit and adopt the increasingly more popular image of the old gent in red and white, which just happened to 'suit' the Coca-Cola livery. Then he managed to find a real life retired Coca-Cola sales rep. named Lou Prentice who looked so much like the public's conception of Santa that he could be used as a model. "Prior to the Sundblom illustrations," Mark Pendergrast writes in 'For God, Country and Coca-Cola', "the Christmas saint had been variously illustrated wearing blue, yellow, green, or red.... After the soft drink ads, Santa would forever more be a huge, fat, relentlessly happy man with broad belt and black hip boots - and he would wear Coca-Cola red .... While Coca-Cola has had a subtle, pervasive influence on our culture, it has directly shaped the way we think of Santa." Well, at the very least, we can say that the entire world's present conception of Santa owes a great deal to American culture, as does much of our world's iconography.

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Brig
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posted 12-19-2004 17:32     Click Here to See the Profile for Brig     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Clement Moore beat Sundblum by quite a few years, but theres no doubt Coca Cola added greatly to the image. The Sundblum images are still being used (nostalgically) today, to considerable effect.

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Essan
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posted 12-20-2004 05:20     Click Here to See the Profile for Essan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So, um, does all this mean Father Christmas comes from Atlantis........

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