As Respected Georgeos considers his Atlantean Theory to be almost complete and final and as it is mostly dependent upon the translations of Plato, so as desired earlier by some of our members, full translations of Res Georgeos shall be presented comprehensively at one place.

This may enable all our friends to compare Res Georgeos with other translations like Jowett and Bury and then exclaim as to how and where all other translators went wrong on such simple linguistic matters. I mean none of the languages involved has vanished completely.

It is also requested to inform as to how the “9000 years” have been precisely written originally or translated as “1009 years”? Why they were not approximated to 1000 or 1010 years? BTW if accuracy was the hallmark of the statement, then why the exact months have also not been incorporated along with the years?

I do not know that how “8000 years” have been translated? Is it going to be “1008 years” or “800 years.’ Then how “1000 years” have been translated? Is it going to be “1001 years” or “100 years”.

Then the “Peoples of Athena” have to settle at “Neith” albeit under the clouds of their ignorance of “Atlantean Gades at Mainland Europe” and this ignorance had to continue even up to and including Plato. This legacy of Plato seems to be carried forwarded by some even today. BTW if Plato really knew and was telling about the “Atlantean Gades at Mainland Europe” then why his next generation nowhere reiterated or asserted it.

It will tantamount to be a hybrid dilemma born out of mixtures of Linguistics with Mathematics, if for the figures of population and time scale, Plato needs to be divided by 10 and then for dimensions he needs to be divided by 3. I mean for the dimensions, Plato needs to be divided either by 10 or by 30 but not by 3 in case of the reduced population.

Actually all such things have been already discussed in details on various Cooperative Research threads of Respected Smiley. However scholars may not be much interested to dwell in the past and learn from it.

I feel that some theories including that of Res Georgeos are possible and they shall be presented in totality, so that the critiques if any can understand them in a better objective manner. Otherwise it may lead to blurring of the demarcation lines between the Atlanteans and the Phoenicians.

It is not the GREEN Serpentine that we want, it is the RED Serpentine that we would like to find. The Green could have been dyed RED. It does seem to be formally noted that this RARE rock, even to us today, was used to cover walls and could also be polished or dyed.

There is nothing wrong with AMBER as it still could serve to provide a coating, perhaps even over Green Serpentine to give it the Red color if it was not also dyed.

Magii Rajesh.

When we consider the dates told to us by the Egyptian Priest as 8000 and 9000 years ago, we also have to consider that the Egyptians ORIGINALLY used the LUNAR calendar which changed to SOLAR around 2700 bC. This alone would account for differences in chronological records such as also we see a 345 year difference for every 1000 years.

This puts us at around 6500 bC in time for the Great Flood and the new AWAKENING of the mediterranean civilizations.

So for the Priest to say that time, he may also have remembered the changes of the calendar and may be referring to a Lunar count of the years.

It is impossible for Atlantis to be anywhere around 800 or 900 bC.

1800 or 1900 years before would put us around 2470 or 2370 bC, this could be possible but it does seem rather clear that the difference between thousands and hundreds was quite substantial which would then give us 18000 or 19000 years.

Again, we also have mention of Hercules going back 17000 years.

Regardless, Atlantis reigns from 40,000 bC to it's destruction date of either 9600 bC or 6482bC.

The main concept seems to imply that there were two separate incidents, the sinking of Atlantis 6482 or 9600 bC and the battle sinking which would have to be between 3500 bC and 2500 bC.

The strongest suggestion for mistranslations would have to be the difference in the calendars or PURPOSEFULLY altered translations.

Today scientists tell you that the oceans were 150m lower around 10,000 bC.

Should our future researchers say 1500 or 15000m lower? No they should not.

Riven make clean scientific messages, unlike the messages of others who shall go nameless who always insinuate dark motives, laced with strange paranoias.

Shall we return to dicussion of orichalcum? I have researched much new material.

Warm Greetings of Katrina

Boreas suggest these materials as possible candidates for valuable
orichalcum:

° Amber?
° Copper
° A gold-copper-ore?
° Brass?
° Tin Bronze?
° Arsenic Bronze?
° Stainless Steel?
° An unknown natural alloy?
° Pyrite ("fools gold")
° Chalcopyrite?
° Cuprite?
° Boric Acid?
° Obsidian?

Riven also suggest Red Serpentine, to which, I confess, I know very little of. Plato mention tin, copper, brass, silver and gold as all metals distinct from orichalcum, so must be a derivative of some sort. I, too, would like to bring up new candidate, "casserite," the most common ore of tin. History would suggest that casserite, too, most valued in ancient times:

specific properties:
Atomic weight: 118.69; Atomic number: 50
Melting point: 500 °F
Specific gravity: white tin: 7.31; gray tin 5.75
Cassiterite, SnO2, also called tin stone; cassiterite is the most common ore of tin, being 78.6 % tin. An oxide, the tin is released by heating cassiterite with charcoal to drive off the oxygen. The ores are often associated with other elements, most commonly a fair amount of iron impurity.

The mineral ranges form light yellowish through red-brown to black, often all colors banded within a single crystal. These bands are characteristic in identification. The mineral’s look, or luster, is diamond-like to greasy and dull. The crystals break unevenly and are quite brittle, being transparent or translucent. Regardless of exterior color, cassiterite leaves a white trail of powder in a scratch test.

The Phoenicians had always been a seafaring race of people, and in their exploration, had heard rumors of tin in the far west. They sailed beyond the Pillars of Hercules and met the Atlantic Ocean. The tin came from farther out in the Atlantic, known then as the Tin Isles [Cassiterides], a vague area, deliberately kept that way by all. Whether the Phoenicians even knew the source is doubtful, as no Punic inscriptions have been found in Britain until the Roman era. It is still not known how far the Phoenicians penetrated into the Atlantic; indeed Herodotus noted that they had little knowledge of the Cassiterides "from whence our tin is brought."

Etymology
Tin (Anglo-Saxon: tin); Latin: stannum, thus the chemical symbol for tin
is now Sn.
Cassiterides (tin islands); these are the Scilly Isles, lying just off
the tip of Cornwall, British Isles.
Cassiterite; from the Greek word meaning tin.
http://www.ancientroute.com/resource/metal/tin.htm

I'sorry, that this information unknown for many can bother to some of the presents, but is not false. He is real. Anyone can verify the veracity of this data contributed by Avieno.

In addition, all the oldest maps, from the times of Ptolomeo, locate to the islands Cassiterides, just ahead and very next to the Atlantic coasts of Spain, by where today are the Islands You back water, in Galicia.

Elys,

------------------
Eliana García
Cádiz, Spain

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Oreichalkós: Georgeos Díaz's Hypothesis (part I)
« Thread started on: Feb 26th, 2005, 05:59am »

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With respect to the Oreichalkós, I remember that already much in this same forum has been discussed. You yourself, and Georgeos the Diaz, for a long time, in old topics who I keep in my computer. It was already spoken enough of the Oreichalkós, and Georgeos Diaz-Montexano was first in removing like subject of discussion in this forum of AR that the correct translation of this word was "Mountain-Copper"; although this was something that already was known by the experts in Greek languages, was not very known by atlantologists. After this, memory that Ulf along with contributed to many interesting ideas, Atalante, Erick, Jonas, and others more, but is very important to remember what Georgeos Diaz contributed to the discussion. He insisted on the fact that Plato - through Kritias- interlocutor he affirmed that the Oreichalkós was extracted directly of many places of the Atlantis Nęsos; that is to say, that oreichalkós (according to Plato, Kritias, Solón or the own Egyptian priests) was a metal (or perhaps a natural mineral), quite abundant or it frequents in Atlantis.

In the Georgeos' Book some very interesting data are reading. The certain Diaz-Montexano have been able to rescue of the forgetfulness to old Spanish authors of the Xv-xvii centuries (expert in classic languages) like Nebrija and Feijó. Nebrija went first that rectified the European intellectuals of its time, that the "Oreichalkós" was simply, "Mountain-Copper". It affirms to Georgeos Diaz who, according to the classic sources, the Oreichalkós had in its color much similarity with gold, and this is confirmed in a passage that Georgeos Diaz shows in his book and that belongs to Roman author Cicerón (lib. 3 of Offic.) This one is the fragment: "Sî qűis aűrum vęndens Orichalcum sę putet vendęre"; "if by gold oreichalkós is sold, it is possible to be sold" (translation, Georgeos Diaz. 2000). That is to say, which it was possible to be made happen through gold to the Oreichalkós, because they were very similar.

This fragment of Cicerón (as it points Georgeos Diaz) confirms that the Oreichalkós had then to be a species of natural Copper of color yellow or golden or brass, since only brass is the metal the more similar to the gold that exists. As Georgeos reasons Diaz, I think that with great certainty:

Quote:"... we cannot then think about that it was a type of bronze, nor another type of alloyed metal of similar to the bronze. Oreichalkós was very similar to gold in its aspect and color, was a metal of yellow or golden color... "

In the Georgeos Diaz' Book also affirms the following thing:

quote:

---

"... In one old Latin edition of the Bible, in the book third of the Kings, CAP 7, Lee who the glasses of the Temple of Salomón were of "Aurichalco". Whereas Josepho says that they were of a copper that had the same color or brilliance of gold: "Fecit item vasâ ejus ęx Aere omnia, lebetes, & amulas tenacula, & arpagones, & reliqua, aurî fulgorem referentia". This appointment of Josepho, confirms the previous affirmation of Cicerón on the great similarity of the Oreichalkós with gold. Therefore, we have to two respected authors of the antiquity, one Roman and another Jew that confirm that the Oreichalkós was a species of Copper very similar to gold.

On the other hand, another important author of the antiquity, Plinius, confirms the words of Plato on the nature of the Oreichalkós, because also she affirms that the "Aurichalco" was not between fictitious metals (made by the man), or that is from mixtures, but that was between native (natural) or the simple ones. With these evidences, I think that the forced or more rigorous conclusion (at the moment) is to accept that the Oreichalkós was exactly a species of "natural Copper" or brass that took place in the smelting of copper of casual way and whose structure and color was very similar to which the gold had. It is peculiar that the Basoues call to gold "urre" and copper "urraide", derived from "urre", gold, and "aida", resemblance.

Nowadays, the industry of the imitation jewellery, jewelry shop uses alloys of copper, nickel and zinc to produce a species of brass of yellowish color that it imitates very well to gold. Now we know, by the old sources, that the Oreichalkós thought about the antiquity that was a natural species of or native Copper of aspect or very similar appearance to gold. Without a doubt some, either we are before the presence of some type of copper natural of golden yellow color or is brass (alloy to copper and zinc) that as it is known, is the only metal that shines like the gold or that the more is looked like gold.

In Iberia the use is known the brass from end of the Age of the Bronze. In a rich Huelva' Tartessian tomb have been several worked objects associated to a funeral car with brass (zinc-copper alloy) and in other archaeological deposits of beginnings of the Iron' Age also have been useful like needles or brass striker pins. Peculiarly brass more similar to those of Tartessos is the found ones in Anatolia, as those of the famous tomb of King Midas, dated in the 800 B.C. The brass, in the antiquity, was a rare material, but that it was already used from long before the arrival from Greek and the Roman ones to the Iberian Peninsula.

The brass of Iberia had to enjoy certain prestige, because still in the early Medieval Age a Welsh text that comments on the origins of its town, attributes to its foundation to a rider or soldier who had come from Spain. One is the Mabinogion manuscript, where the following thing affirms: "To rider and his horse arrayed in spotted yellow armour speckled with laton (brass) of Spain".

The Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, To Greek-English Lexicon defines the following thing:

orei-chalkos, ho, Lat. orichalcum (which by to false etym. was freq. written aurichalcum), to mountain-copper, i.e. yellow to copper prays, to copper or brass made from it, h.Hom.6.9, Hes.Sc.122, Stesich.88, Ibyc. Oxy.1790.42, B.Fr.68 Bgk., Pl.Criti.11ę, Arist.APo.92b22, Mir.834b25, Philostr.VA2.7,20; to mirror of it, Call.Lav.Pall.19; described by Theopompus. Hist.109 ace to mixes of pseudarguros [ pseud-argu^ros, "false to silver" or "zinc", Str.13.1.56. ] and chalkos.

In this sense, the Greek language does not serve as much aid, since it is demonstrated that the same word chalkós, indifferently was used to denominate to "copper", "bronze" and "brass", nevertheless, we have the descriptions of Plinius, Cicerón, Josepho and Theopompus, and all of them allow to conclude that "oreichalkós" was exactly a species of "yellow or golden copper" who color that was very similar to gold; whereas Theopompus affirms that it was an alloy of chalkós, to copper, with "pseudarguros", false silver or zinc, with which we have then that - according to this author oreichalkós was then a brass. We cannot know who was right if Theopompus or the other authors, who win to him in majority, but Plato offers some very important tracks to us:

1. Oreichalkós was extracted of many places of Atlantis. This takes to us to deduce that it was a species of natural mineral or very abundant metal.

1. Oreichalkós was extracted of many places of Atlantis. This takes to us to deduce that it was a species of natural mineral or very abundant metal.

2. The Atlanteans used it with a value very next to gold. This speaks us of a considered metal precious, that excludes a simple one to copper.

3. The same order of use to cover the walls of the outer walls of the concentric ring that surrounded to the Acropolis, demonstrates its value. In the most outer ring, third, chalkós was used, to copper, later in the second ring was used kassiteros, tin, and in the first ring, the one that surrounded to the sacred Acropolis, was used oreichalkós. The same temple of Poseidón was almost totally covered in its interior, walls, ceiling and ground with oreichalkós, which demonstrates its high value, as it affirms own the Plato, single surpassed by gold.

4. Doubt since does not fit for the Atlanteans oreichalkós had to be a precious metal and very appraised; or we know that it was not simple to copper or chalkós nor that was kassiteros or tin, could not either be bronze because this does not appear mentioned in its habitual form that was was Chalkeos, and although the bronze was also denominated like Chalkós, we can be sure that the third ring was covered of copper and not of bronze, because affirms Plato that used Chalkós as if outside painting. This track demonstrates that it is being spoken of copper, that is a soft and maleable metal, whereas the bronze is a metal of greater hardness than hardly it was possible to be used as if it was painting. It is very probable that what Plato denominates as Chalkós used as painting were in fact some type of sulphate of copper that it is very easy to turn pigments to paint in greenish and bluish tones. Arrived at this point, then we can deduce with certain security that oreichalkós was not to copper, was not tin, was not bronze, and either it was not iron, since this it is mentioned later with his habitual word "sidęros". What options we have left?

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Re: Oreichalkós: Georgeos Díaz's Hypothesis (part
« Reply #1 on: Feb 26th, 2005, 06:01am »

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The own word oreichalkós - since or we have seen demonstrates to us that one was about a species to copper or some alloy that would take to copper of majority or predominant way. Therefore, we return to the main statement. It could only be a species rare to natural copper, of yellow color or gilded, of aspect very similar to gold (as they affirm Cicerón and Josepho) or an copper alloy with another material, as it could be the "pseudoarguros", "false silver" or zinc, according to affirmed Theopompus, that is to say, what today we know like brass.

5. Another important key or crushes we found it in the own name that the Romans gave the Oreichalkós, "Aurichalcum". The philologists of the modern times always have thought that aurichalcum is an orthographic error committed by the Romans when interpreting the Greek word oreichalkós, nevertheless, I think that it is not any error, is the confirmation of which affirm Cicerón, Plinius and Josepho. About the times of the Empire Roman a type of copper thought that the Aurichalcum was a species of "copper auriferous", that is to say, that he was so similar to the gold that could until being sold as if it was same gold. Then, the name is correct. "Auri", is gold in Latin, and "chalcum" is copper, that derives from Greek "chalkós". The Romans created neologism combining a Greek word with another Latin that served better to describe to a metal or species of copper, which he was very similar to gold.

Therefore, Aurichalcum not is false ethimology, is word authentic, that is due to translate like "Copper-Gold" or "Copper-Auriferous", but not in sense of alloy of gold and copper (something that does not have to be discarded), rather in the sense of a type of copper that era of aspect and color very similar to gold.

This similarity in appearance was the one that impelled the Romans to that they ended up changing the Greek name original of oreichalkós who such Roman wrote at first as orichalco/orichalcum by the form adapted to the Latin of aurichalco/aurichalcum. On the other hand, it is very important to indicate that a single source of the Greek nor Roman antiquity exists neither that explains the ethimology of the Greek name oreichalkós.

6. The Philologists of the modern times has assumed that is due to translate like "Copper-Mountain" of orei, "mountain" and chalkós, "copper". Nevertheless, the same root orei- it could be translated like "stir", "rise" or "to stir oneself", of way so that orei-chalkós, also could have meant originally, "to stir-copper", "to rise-copper" or "to stir to oneself-copper". Let us see this definition:

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, To Greek-English Lexicon.

orei (fut ind mid 2nd sg attic epic doric ionic contr of "ornumi") "stir", "stir up".

Then, Orei-chalkós = "stir-copper", "rise-copper" or "stir oneself-copper".

Can be a a denomination for a a type of natural or native copper that arise of way "stir" in the the surface of some rock, for that reason Plato affirm that extract of many place of Atlantis, but Plato not specify that obtain of the mountain, but of many place of the island-peninsula.

7. Also the propose ethimological is very interesting that makes Andrew Gyles of the name oreichalkós. I think that I could be most correct. Let us see the hypothesis of Mr Gyles: "... An alternative way of understanding the Word would be to assume that it came from Greek orao ' to see or look... to let oneself be seen, appear' chalkos ' to copper... bronzé. In other words, ' seeing-copper, to looking-copper or transparent copper'.Transparent means ' through-appearing', but it is not the transparent thing that ' appears ': the transparent thing allows to another object to be seen through it. Oreichalkos ' seeing copper' or ' looking copper' would be to fuse substance that allowed to another object to be seen through it, or allowed to ' looker' to look into it or through it. I am not to linguist. I notices that Liddell and Scott's ' Greek-English Lexicon' shows different forms of orao, including oreo Ionic, and to form oreai. It seems to me that oreo Ionic could have been taken into the oreichalkos Word compound... " (ARCHAEOLOGY AND MYTHOLOGY. Andrew Gyles. 2000)

8. On the origin of the brass, because is accepted that the "zinc-copper alloy may also have been formed by accident, the common secondary minerals of zinc (smithsonite and hemimorphite) may be closely associated with the common secondary minerals of to copper (malachite, azurite, and chrysocolla) in weather-altered, near-surface deposits. Normal smelting of zinc prays does not yield metallic zinc, but smelting to mixes of secondary minerals of zinc and to copper to together may yield to zinc-copper alloy. Deliberate zinc-copper did not eats into uses before Roman times, and to earlier accidental examples of this alloy plows extremely rare" (Copper, Bronze, and Brass. Provo, Utah: FARMS, 2000. P. N/A)

In Iberia and Anatolia have been clear samples of the use of the brass (zinc-copper alloy), in Tartessos has also been samples of utensils made in another type of brass "zinc-copper-lead alloy". The mountains of Huelva and Sîerra Môrena are quite rich in rocky surfaces with veins of secondary minerals of zinc (smithsonite and hemimorphite) associated with the common secondary minerals of to also copper (malachite, azurite, and chrysocolla) in weather-altered and near-surface deposits. The constant operation and smelting of copper made during thousands of years in these places of Andalusia caused the inevitable "accidental" discovery of the brass. Nevertheless, like we have seen, it was not until the Roman times that were begun to fuse of deliberate and systematic way. But the nonsingle brass was used at the Tartessian time, also was continued using at the Iberian time, generally for the preparation of ornamentales and votivos objects like ring and pins.

The zinc is present in complex minerals of the deposits ferro-cuprics (iron and copper). The "zinc and to copper minerals often occur to together. Zinc could be to contaminant in copper you pray often enough for the discovery of brass to be reasonably simple " (Legacy of the Ancient World Steven Dutch, Natural and Applied Sciences, University of Wisconsin - Green Bay)

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Re: Oreichalkós: Georgeos Díaz's Hypothesis (part
« Reply #2 on: Feb 26th, 2005, 06:01am »

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In the mining river basin of Huelva are concentrated in few square kilometers the greater existing zinc reserves (Pinedo, 1971), which demonstrates the enormous probabilities that existed of which the brass in the kingdom of Tartessos or old Andalusia of the Copper's Age was accidentally discovered, with the simple fact to fuse minerals of copper rich in zinc of the mountains Iberian de Andalus/Antalus or Atlantis.

In summary, it is possible to be affirmed, according to the archaeological data that the oldest samples known in all Europe and the Mediterranean the use the brass are in the Gordion Tomb, in Phrygia and the Jôya Tomb in Huelva, Andalusia, Spain; dating from the 8th and 7th centuries BC onwards.

9. For the archaeologists of the British Museum it seems not to exist no doubt that oreichalkós is in fact 'yellow copper' or brass. I recommend the reading of the article on "The Syon Reach sword". They looked like clear samples of the great similarity that had old brass with gold. http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/science/whatsnew/sr-earliest%20brass.htm

10. Another point that would be to consider is oreichalkos the same origin of the name. Or we have spoken of the three hypotheses, conventional or the academic one, "to mountain-copper", the one of Gyles, "seeing to copper" or "looking to copper", and mine, "resurged or arisen to copper" or "surface to copper".

11. In Demotic dialect are three forms possible to express "Mountain/Hill-Copper":

- Hmt-tw(ę) (Hemet-tue)

- Hmt-Dw (Hemet-Dju)

- Hmt-bawj.t (Hemet-baui)

Although this do not serve to us as much, as it is not only for satisfying a curiosity.

12. The certain thing is that the Oreichalkós term or was well-known between Greek the previous ones even to Solón, because Homero or uses the term. In any case, always it was used like in the sense of a precious and exotic metal species. In fact, archaeology has demonstrated that brass was very little or rare in old Greece.

Provisional conclusion:

1. According to all the data collected here in this chapter, we can maintain with certain security that the Oreichalkós was a species of "copper alloy, with all probability of copper-zinc or copper-zinc-lead, like both found types of brass in the old kingdom of Tartessós, in the Peninsula of Iberîa.

2. The oldest deposits of the Mediterranean with evidences of use of brass belong to the old Anatolia and the kingdom of Tartessos, in Andalusia, Spain. Both in the opposed ends of the Mediterranean.

3. Anatolia is in the Eastern Mediterranean, but Atlantis was empire of the Mediterranean Western, therefore, the Tartessian Brass, must to be same Oreichalkós which Plato describes like a precious one and appraised metal of the Atlantic towns, that lived in NHSOS (Island-Peninsula), next to the Columns of Hercules; a NHSOS that in addition had a well-known region -in the Atlantean language- like Gadeira.

4. Let us remember that the author Arab, Attabari, affirmed that "to the north of the Magrreb (Morocco), was the "Yazirât âl Andalus", the country of the City walled with Gilded Brass"... To memory or interpretation of the Oreichalkós of the Atlantis's Akropolis? ... " (final of quote Georgeos' Book)

---

Sincerely, after reading the chapter on the Oreichalkós of the Georgeós Book, to my I they have not had left hardly doubts that Georgeos Diaz has solved the mystery of the Oreichalkós. The Brass was a type of "natural Copper" of auriferous color or the same Tartessian Brass confirmed by Spanish archaeology.

In Iberia many examples of devices of the Age of the Bronze exist that were made with a species of Copper alloy copper-zinc or copper-lead-zinc that until the archaeologists did not put under them laboratory tests, thought that they were of gold. These could be some examples of the Oreichalkós that Plato mentions. Another good example is the striker pin of Copper discovered by the equipment of explorers of the expedition "Atlantis Ibero-Moroccian 2003" underneath waters of Andalusia, near Gibraltar, and that was published in this forum of AR. All the Spanish investigators thought that he was gold until he took to a laboratory that confirmed that it was a type of copper with more of 97% of purity and the rest of zinc and very little of lead. Georgeos Diaz thinks that it is an authentic unit of Atlantean tool, made about Oreichalkós.

I hope that these Georgeos Diaz-Montexano's notes, are from interest and utility to them in your investigations.

Greetings of Ely and Salvador.
Cádiz, Spain.

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Re: Oreichalkós: Georgeos Díaz's Hypothesis, II
« Reply #3 on: Feb 26th, 2005, 06:29am »

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Mystery of the Oreichalkós Deciphered Atlantean (II Part)

quote:

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All the examples of Roman and Greek currencies and the examples of done medieval devices in orichalcum (http://193.136.215.76/museu/LISTAINg.HTM) demonstrate that from the Greek time to the Average Age, which Greek and the Roman ones denominated like oreichalkós and orichalcum was not more than the brass (Zinc-Copper alloy). In 1734, Emanuel Swedenborg wrote a scientific work dedicated to the Copper and the Orichalcum (Regnum subterraneum sive minerale of cupro ET orichalco), in this work Swedenborg demonstrates that the orichalcum was one alloy of, "lapide calaminari; de zinco ; et de vena cupri", that is, lodestone-zinc-copper alloy. Although it is very probable that in fact one was talking about the medieval orichalcum. The orichalcum of the Greek antiquity and Roman era always of zinc-copper alloy or zinc-copper-lead alloy.
In several medieval Biblical editions, written in Latin, affirms (Apocalipsis. Revelation Chapter 1-15) "et pedes eius similes orichalco sicut in camino ardenti et vox illius tamquam vox aquarum multarum" y más adelante, "et angelo Thyatirae ecclesiae scribe haec dicit Filius Dei qui habet oculos ut flammam ignis et pedes eius similes orichalco" (Apocalipsis. Revelation Chapter 2-18).
Also I have noticed that the scales of values of metals at different times can throw new data to be able to decipher to the mystery of the Atlantean oreichalkós.

Scale of values of Greco-Roman metals:

Gold > Silver > Orichalcum/Bronze > Copper > Iron.

Scale of values of metals in the Medieval Age (Iohannes Amos Comenius. "Orbis sensualium pictus"):

Gold > Silver > Orichalcum > Copper > Tin > Iron > Lead.

Scale of values of metals of Atlantis:

Gold > Oreichalkós > Silver > Tin > Copper/Bronze > Iron.

In the sequence of scale of values of Atlantis the second metal in value, after gold, is the Oreichalkós (as it affirms Plato), being in this sense over the silver, that it was the second metal in the scale of values for Greek and Roman and the European of the Medieval time. In fact it could say that still nowadays it continues being the second precious metal in the scale of values.

The silver is only mentioned in the story of Atlantis of the Critias (116d), when the temple of the God Poseidôn is described, whereas the iron is mentioned a single time, and not as it leaves from valuable metals but as a metal used for certain twigs or described stakes of iron in the rite of the capture of the bull.

The description of this scheme of values of metals of Atlantis is speaking to us of an original, foreign society, from the point of view Egyptian Greco-Roman and. A society that offered greater value to a species ' of copper alloy' like oreichalkós that to the own silver.

As far as the Bronze, we do not know clearly certainty that the Atlanteans knew this metal, because in the dialogues of Plato the word is only used chalkós that although sometimes was used to denominate to the Bronze, its main meaning was to copper.

Nevertheless, to have - along with our commitment towards the scientific rigor demands to us that only we can speak surely of the use between the Atlanteans of gold, the silver, tin, copper, the iron and the oreichalcum, but not of the Bronze.

On the other hand, the logic induces to us - almost it forces to us to assume that the Atlanteans used the Bronze; We can assume that they knew the Bronze by the mention of the Iron, which evidence that the Atlanteans the Age Bronze and principles superlived until end on the Iron Age. But we insisted on which any safe mention of the same one does not exist; nevertheless, oreichalkós, that strange metal denominated literally like Orei-chalkós, that is to say, "Mountain-Copper", could be considered like a species of Bronze, whenever we accept that the Oreichalkós de Atlantis was the same Oreichalkós of the Romans, that is a brass species (zinc-copper alloy), and that in the scale of values of Greek metals of and the Roman ones appears alternated with the Bronze and times with copper, although almost always over copper in value.

Since we have already demonstrated previously, well-known the oldest brass samples have been in Anatolia and Iberia (Kingdom of Tartessós, Andalusia, near the Columns of Hercules and of the region of Gadeira). if the Oreichalkós were a type of brass, then nothing prevents that we pruned to consider that these old brass samples of end of the Age of bronze found in Iberia and Anatolia are the same Oreichalkós of which speaks Plato. In any case, single the kingdom of Tartessós is in the exact location that offers Plato for Atlantis. Anatolia is in the opposite end.

Another key that has allowed to decipher the enigma us of metals of Atlantis is indeed the little mention of the metal of the silver, so valued by Greek, Phoenicians, Egyptian, Roman and by almost all the towns of the Eastern Mediterranean, and their location in a third position in the scale of values of the Atlanteans metals, behind "mountain-copper". Then... How we can explain that Plato (Critias or Solón) mentions to oreichalkós, that is some type of copper alloy secondly, after gold, like precious metal of Atlantis? We only can consider an answer logical, and is the following one:
The silver is mentioned between three metals of greater value for the Atlanteans, used in the decoration from the temple to Poseidôn. We are going to analyse the appointment:

“...panta de exôthen perięleipsan ton neôn argurôi, plęn tôn akrôtęriôn, ta de akrôtęria chrusôi: ta d' entos, tęn men orophęn elephantinęn idein pasan chrusôi kai argurôi kai oreichalkôi pepoikilmenęn, ta de alla panta tôn toichôn te kai kionôn kai edaphous oreichalkôi perielabon...” (Critias, 116d)

[116d] “... All the exterior of the temple, they overlay it with silver, save only the prominent parts; to the prominent parts, golden. As to the interior, they made the roof of elephant tooth in appearance, all to work in various colours with gold and silver and orichalcum, and all the rest of the walls and columns and floors, they cover all round with orichalcum ...” (Critias, 116d. Traslation by Georgeos Díaz-Montexano, 2000)

Plato (Critias or Solón) affirms that it was the second metal in value after gold. The own distribution of metals in the temple demonstrates the scale of values of each one. The cupola of the temple, that is, most important the elevated part more and, the one than covered the head with the statue of the God Poseidôn, era of gold (the first metal in the scale of values), all the walls, the ground and the ceiling of the interior of the temple the second metal in the scale of values was covered with the called metal oreichalkós (and finally the outside of the walls of the temple was covered with silver, that was the third metal in the scale of values. Whereas the own inner ceiling presented/displayed ivory decorations, silver, gold and oreichalcós to offer an aspect multicolour, which demonstrates that oreichalkós was a metal whose coloration could not be similar to gold, or of yellow colour, as they affirmed the Roman authors that we have analysed. He would be absurd to combine two almost identical metals to obtain an effect of several colours.

In the Critias one affirms that oreichalkós was refulgent like the fire, this expression means that its coloration would be similar to the one of the fire. If we compared any flame of a torch we will even observe that the colour of the fire is between yellow and red ignition, with colour edges purple. Therefore, the logic, and the fact that they used oreichalcós to combine it with gold and the silver and to produce an effect multicolour, force to us to consider that with all probability oreichalkós would be, in effect, some species of copper alloy, that would have a reddish colour or gilding (orange) with reflections of red colour. It could perfectly be what Network is known like "Gold", (copper-gold alloy). The samples of "Gold Network" in the antiquity of Iberia, from the Copper Age and during the kingdom of Tartessos, are surprising. Truely precious units are conserved that respond to the description of Plato of "refulgent like the fire" (to see photos).

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Re: Oreichalkós: Georgeos Díaz's Hypothesis, IIb
« Reply #4 on: Feb 26th, 2005, 06:30am »

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Let us remember that in another fragment of the Critias, one affirms that the Atlanteans the colours white (or clear) decorated the facades of many of their constructions combining, black (or dark) and red (or reddish), this custom seems to repeat itself in the decoration of the ceiling of the temple; the white or clear colours would obtain with ivory and with same gold, because depending on the gold class, they could have used a sure pale gold or almost white, the dark colours could obtain it with the silver, that spent a time, if it is not cleaned periodically, offers a dark and almost black colour, whereas the reddish colours would obtain with orei-chalkós or "Network to it Gold" (to gold-copper alloy), to being one alloy of "gold-copper", would not practically make lack clean so that it maintained the coloration of reddish similar to the fire. This proposal of identification that I do is the unique one that allows to include/understand like could have combined the colours with metals that later they did not have to be climbing up the ceilings of the tremendous temple to clean them periodically.

Returning to the silver, since we have seen, for the Atlanteans the silver had an inferior value to oreichalkós that it was a species of copper, and is now when we arrived at a precious key or track that will allow us, once again, to demonstrate that Atlantis are the same kingdom or empire that preceded to the kingdom that was known later by the Greeks like Tartessian, but before will be necessary that we remember an elementary principle, and very well-known, that is the cause of the value which they acquire metals at certain times and nations. It is known that the shortage of a metal, that is to say, its peculiarity (among other qualities), is what makes valuable very and appraised, whereas the abundance of the same one makes him lose value and importance. Then exactly we have historical and archaeological testimonies of a kingdom of the antiquity that got to have as much abundance of silver that finished not giving no value him like precious metal, until the point that got to use it as if it was simple to copper or lead, fusing objects and equipment of daily use in the smelting of vases, pots and until mangers for the horses and other animals of blocks. That nation, that town, that kingdom, that got to despise the value of the silver, even below copper, due to its abundance, was indeed Tartessós. And this precious one nails we found it in Strabo, that says:

"...The wealth of Iberia is further evidenced by the following facts: the Carthaginians who, along with Barcas, made a campaign against Iberia found the people in Turdetania, as the historians tell us, using silver feeding-troughs and wine-jars. And one might assume that it was from their great prosperity that the people there got the additional name of "Macraeones," (Greek makraiôn: "lasting long"; "long-lived"; "of the immortals") and particularly the chieftains..." (The Geography of Strabo. Book III, Chapter 2. 14)

Therefore, or in the times of Atlantis (Copper Age and Bronze Age), the silver was reduced to a position below own oreichalkós that was a species or type of copper (alloy, natural or artificial), which demonstrates that the silver was then much more abundant and daily that "mountain-copper". Time later, at the end of the Bronze, in the times of the kingdom of Tartessós, the silver already had been made so vulgar, by its great abundance, that was used as if it is commonest about nonprecious metals. The appointment of Strabo confirms the scale of values of metals of the Atlanteans. Strabo also says the following thing:

"...Not very far from Castelo is also the mountain in which the Baetis is said to rise; it is called "Silver Mountain" (Argentarium Mons) on account of the silver-mines that are in it..." (The Geography of Strabo. Book III, Chapter 2. 11)

Any mountain is not known in all the antiquity that received that same name by the so great abundance of silver, and that in addition was to the west of the Mediterranean.

Other authors affirm that of these same mountains they lowered by his great rivers amounts of tin, to copper and gold. Let us see an appointment:

"... the named Tartessos, illustrious city, that the tin dragged by the river brings from the Céltica, as well as gold and receive in greater abundance... " (Escimno.164 (s. I SAW a.C.)

All the old Greek and Roman historians mention the Keltike or Celtitania in the area of the mountains that surround to the Guadalquivir by the North and northeastern part. In fact, the only place of Europe where they have been a city with the name of Celtis and a region with the name of Celtitania, which is translated like “the country of the Celtas”, is in Andalusia. The city seems that it was closely together of Seville, upon the same Sierra Morena (mountains to the north of the great plain). This city coined several currencies different with the name from Celtitan and Celtitania, "country of the Celtas".

On the other hand, the own city of Jaén, which they are in Andalusia, the heart of the valley of the great plain of the Guadalquivir (Baetis), was call in Iberian language with the name ' Oringé (city of Ori, according to Strabo), Plinius the Oringis flame and later most of Roman authors translates the name by ' Auringis', that is, the "Gold City". This translation of the Romans of Oringe by ' Auringis' demonstrates that in the Iberian language, the name to denominate to the gold was almost the same one that is conserved in Castilian the present one, that is, ' oro'.

Since or it has been demonstrated in previous chapters, the dimensions and characteristics of the great Bética plain correspond with the same plain in which was the Acropolis of Atlantis, but in addition, we must remember that the Spanish archaeologists have discovered scientific evidences of a city just as Atlantis, with five concentric ring or pits (three to lead water), surrounded by cross-sectional channels that collected waters from the same called mountains "Argentarium" (of Silver) by Greek and the Roman ones. It is not no chance that the only city of the antiquity that it had the same architectonic scheme of Atlantis has been discovered in an identical plain to which it describes Plato and in the same place whom philosophist Greek says, that is, beside, ahead, in front (Greek 'PRO') of the Columns of Hercules and the region of Gadeira, and in front also to the Atlas (Morocco). It is not either chance, that in addition this called city ' Ori' had to its side a mountain that is only the well-known one in the antiquity with the name of "Silver Mountain" and of that obtained - in addition to silver great amounts of gold, tin, lead and copper; as this old city is not either no chance that, with the same concentric ring scheme that Atlantis, outside denominated by the Iberians with the name of ' Ori-ngis', that is, "City of Ori", that the Romans translated like ' Auringis', that is to say, "Gold-City". As it cannot either be another chance that the own Orei-chalkós word, that many have interpreted like "mountain to copper", contains the oreí root ' (pronounced 'ori') that is present in the old name of the concentric city 'Origis' or 'Aurigis'.

All philologists modern has thought that Orei - in the name of Oreichalkós- it means mountain, nevertheless, nobody can deny that the Orei-chalkós word really meant "Orei-Copper" that is, "copper of the city of Orei or Ori", the same city of Auri-ngis (Golden-City), according to the Romans, in the same way who in the antiquity said 'Küpros-Chalkós' to talk about to the 'Kyprus's copper'. The Ori root, appears in the name of the concentric city of the old Jaén, in other old cities of Andalusia also appears like Oria, Oretum, Oro-ssis, Ore and Ori-ppo, this last one was closely together of Seville and coined its own currencies with symbols of the bull and a moon raises and by the other face faces of divinities or kings nonidentified. The suffixe - ppo and - ippo is suffixe that is considered as they Iberian and that it would mean "city". We have then two cities in the great Baetica plain or of the Guadalquivir with the name of "Orís City".

Both are next to important zones mining, but city of Ori-ppo has advantage to be located exactly to about fifty stages of old coast in times of Bronze Age. All cities of Iberia with root Ori/Ore, "Gold", found exactly in region of Ore-tania, "Ore-Land", which it included all the mountain mountain range of the north and the northeast of the great plain of the Guadalquivir that is the area of greater concentration of mines of copper, gold, to silver, zinc and lead. All this reaffirms that the root Prays, meant "gold" and more likely it gave to origin also to anglian-xajon 'ore'/'ori' that at the moment he is the English ' I prayed, and perhaps also to the own colour orange (of Oringe), since this it is the colour that usually has alloys of copper and gold. The Tartessians is mentioned like the most famous miners of the antiquity in many sources, and they are known that their expeditions arrived until the British islands, reason why is very probable that the prestige of gold and copper Tartessian finished in the same way imposing between the old British inhabitants the term Tartessian 'Ore'/'Ori', that would be the name of gold or "copper-gold alloy" of Iberia, that the prestige of the Kyprus copper, happened to denominate much later CUPRUM of the Romans and apparently the present one to English 'copper'.

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Re: Oreichalkós: Georgeos Díaz's Hypothesis, IIc
« Reply #5 on: Feb 26th, 2005, 06:31am »

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Another evidence of which the Ore/Ori root, would mean "Gold", or Auri, in Latin, we found it in the name of a God that was born in Tartessos or Iberia, Chrüsaor, son of Poseidon with Medousa, brother of Pegasus (the horse of Poseidôn) and father of the frightful Geriones (the one of the three bodies), king of the Erytheia Island (red or the reddish one), a name that received the island of Gadeira or Cadiz. Chrüsaor presents/displays the Greek root Chrüso (gold), whereas - Or would be the Tartessian root that means "gold" and that we found in all the names of cities near gold mines of Tartessos which already we have mentioned. The name of Chrüsa-Or would really mean "the one that is of Gold" or the "Golden". The presence is peculiar from the red colour in the oldest myths of Tartessos, because in addition to Erytheia (reddish or the red one), we have them famous bulls (oxen or cows, according to the sources) of Geriones were of red colour.

On the other hand, the medieval legend gathered like historical annals of Spain from century XIII, affirms that a son of Atlas or Atlante, old king of Iberia, was called Gold. The Greek and Roman old sources, mention the nation of Ore-tanos (- tanos it is a suffix that means "country, region or lines up of"), that is," Ore-Land "or" Ore-Country ". Established in the Guadiana stop, the Safe stop and the adjacent portion of the river basin of the Guadalquivir, near Jaén (the old concentric city of Ori) and in the territories of the "Silver Mountain". Ore is without a doubt, the same name that appears in Ori-ngis or Auringis, "Golden City". Another test we found it in the name of the only king of 'Ore-tanos' that mentions the old authors and who were called ' Ori-só. Diodorus Siculus, says of this king: "... the king of the Orises, Oretanos which they live in Cástulo, in the superior part of the Anas (Guadiana)... " Also, talking about to Asdrúbal he says: "... king Oriso overcame first a, punishing to the guilty of the defeat of Amilcar. He received the submission of his cities in number of twelve... ".

Perhaps somebody can show as much amount of together evidences, that agree with the descriptions of Plato. I dare to answer I myself. No. Nobody can demonstrate that another place in the world exists (aside from Spain) that reunites so many coincidences and that I summarize next:

1.Una island or peninsula (NHSOS), PRÔ (ahead, beside, in front, before) of the Columns of Hercules. [ Iberia is an island or peninsula (NHSOS), to be surrounded throughout by seas and has from the remote antiquity a Straits known like Columns of Hercules. ]

2.Una island or peninsula (NHSOS) that had a called region Gadeira. [ Iberia also had from the remote antiquity a called region Gadeira, that the Romans also called Gadira, Gadir, Gades and today we called Cadiz ].

3.Una island or peninsula (NHSOS) that was next to the coasts of the Atlantic sea (ATLANTIKU PELAGOS). [ with this name of 'Atlantikou Pelagos' mentions several authors previous to Solón and Plato to the Atlantic sea that begins exactly between Spain and Morocco, in the Columns of Hercules or Straits of Gibraltar. ]

4.Una island or peninsula (NHSOS) that had a great plain of about 3000 stages of Maximal length by about a 2000 from the coast of the sea to above of the center. [ These measures agree with one more an exactitude than surprising with the extension of the plain of the Guadalquivir, formerly call plain of the Baetica, Turdetana or Tartessia. ]

5.Una island or peninsula (NHSOS) that had the Acropolis to about fifty stages of the coast of the sea surrounded by five concentric ring. [ In a city of the same plain of the Guadalquivir has been one old city founded on the Copper Age and that had its greater splendour in the Bronze Age with five concentric ring, but it is not to fifty stages of the coast of the sea, is to about 500 stages, reason why ] can have had an error of the medieval cotracks

6.Una island or peninsula (NHSOS) that had a city surrounded by cross-sectional channels or that were crossed and that served to collect the waters that lowered of the mountains that surrounded to the city and the plain. [ the same concentric city of Jaén also had cross-sectional channels to collect waters of near mountains. ]

7.Una island or peninsula (NHSOS) that used a called metal Orei-chalkós. [ the old concentric city and with channels of Jaén that is located in the great plain, was called in language Iberian ' Oringé or ' Oringis', name that means the Romans translated like "Auringis", "The Golden-City". It is very possible that Orei-chalkós meant, "Orís Copper", that is, "Copper of the city of Ori", "the Golden City". For that reason the Romans always said that the orichalcum was very similar to gold, and for that reason some Roman authors called "Auri-Chalcum", that is, "Gold-Copper" or "Golden-Copper", although also could mean "Auris's Copper originally", that is, "gold of Auri-ngis," the Golden City ", the name of the old concentric city of Jaén, Andalusia. On the other hand, the Romans called oreichalkós to the brass, and in Tartessos the archaeologists have found brass samples. In addition to Tartessos, one has only been in Anatolia, but Spain is the only NHSOS that is next to Columns of Hercules, the Atlantic, and to the west of Libya, of Egypt, of the Thyrrenia and Asia, whereas Anatolia is to the East.]

8.Una island or peninsula (NHSOS) that had several generations of kings Atlanteans (from the primitive times, when the man still did not know the art navigation according to affirms Plato, to the Bronze Age, when it already dominates almost all metals until the iron). [ Spain is the only country of all the planet earth that conserved in its medieval historical annals from century XIII a genealogy of kings "Atlanteans", between that appears Atlante, Hespero, Oro, Gadeiro, Hispalo, Hispan (between many more), and these kings are mentioned several centuries before the West knew the first translations the Latin and to the Greek of the Critias. What demonstrates that they could not copy it of Plato. The fact that the historical annals medieval Spaniards speak of old kings of Spain, descendants of Atlante, demonstrates that is based on an authentic millenarian tradition.]

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Re: Oreichalkós: Georgeos Díaz's Hypothesis, IId
« Reply #6 on: Feb 26th, 2005, 06:32am »

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We could continue mentioning more points, but that will become in the conclusion chapter of the book, because they are numerous.

I think - and almost I am sure that from the times of Homer, when old the Greeks spoke of Oreichalkós, they were not talking about "mountain-copper" but to "Ori-copper", that is to say, when copper that or Ori came from the country or the city of Orei (that is the correct pronunciation of Orei). Since we have seen existed two cities in Andalusia or Tartessós with the name of 'Ori' and one of them was translated by the Romans like "Golden-City", and this same city was concentric like the one of Atlantis. I have always thought (and I continue still thinking) that this city of Ori or Auri (the old Jaén) is not the same city or the Acropolis of Atlantis, because it is not to fifty stages of the old coast of the sea (it is to about 500 stages), but without a doubt some, all these coincidences demonstrate that the true city of Atlantis could be closely together of the called cities Ori or "Golden-City". Therefore, the Arab Attabari (VIII), affirmed that to the north of Morocco was the city of Andalus, the one who translate like "The Golden Brass City", and the old city of Oringe (Jaén), is right to the north of Morocco. Prestigious Spanish, expert scientists in Arab History, defend that the name of Andalusia derives from the name with which the Arab authors knew Atlantis, and that were Andalus. One is a theory that is taking force, more and more, although already was raised first by Juan Fernández Amador de los Ríos in 1919.

On the wealth of metals of Atlantis that Plato it describes any parallel, safe does not exist in all the antiquity in the work of Strabo and the Bible, and both cases to talk about to the kingdom of Tharschis or Tartessos.

Let us see the appointment of Strabo on metals of the region of Andalusia or old kingdom of Tartessos:

“...Now, although the aforesaid country has been endowed with so many good things, still one might welcome and admire, not least of all, but even most of all, its natural richness in metals. For the whole country of the Iberians is full of metals, although not all of it is so rich in fruit, or so fertile either, and in particular that part of it which is well supplied with metals. It is rare for a country to be fortunate in both respects, and it is also rare for the same country to have within a small area an abundance of all kinds of metals. But as for Turdetania and the territory adjoining it, there is no worthy word of praise left to him who wishes to praise their excellence in this respect. Up to the present moment, in fact, neither gold, nor silver, nor yet copper, nor iron, has been found anywhere in the world, in a natural state, either in such quantity or of such good quality. And the gold is not only mined, but is also washed down; that is, the gold-bearing sand is carried down by the rivers and the torrents, although it is often found in the waterless districts also; but in these districts it cannot be seen, whereas in the flooded districts the gold-dust glitters. Besides, they flood the waterless districts by conducting water thither, and thus they make the gold-dust glitter; and they also get the gold out by digging pits, and by inventing other means for washing the sand; and the so-called "gold-washeries" are now more numerous than the gold mines. The Galatae hold that their own mines, both those in the Cemmenus Mountains and those situated at the foot of the Pyrenees themselves, are equal to those of Turdetania; the metals from the latter, however, are held in greater esteem. And in the gold-dust, they say, nuggets weighing as much as half a pound are some found, which are called "palae," and they need but little refining. They further say that when stones are split they find in them small nuggles resembling nipples, and when the gold is smelted and refined by means of a sort of styptic earth the residuum thereof is "electrum"; and, again, that when this electrum, which contains a mixture of silver and gold, is smelted, the silver is burned away, while the gold remains. For the alloy-type is easily fused and stone-like. For this reason, too, the gold is preferably melted with chaff-fire, because the flame, on account of its softness, is suitable to a substance that yields and fuses easily; but the charcoal-fire consumes much of it because, owing to its intensity, it over-melts the gold and carries it off as vapour. The soil is carried along in the streams, and is washed in by troughs; or else a pit is dug, and the soil that has been accumulated is there washed. They build the silver-smelting furnaces with high chimneys, so that the gas from the ore may be carried high into the air; for it is heavy and deadly. Some of the copper-mines are called gold-mines, and from this fact it is inferred that in former times gold was mined from the Gold...” (Strabo, Geographiká III.2. 8)

No appointment of all the antiquity can compete with this of Iberia or Tartessos, to be able to be associated with Atlantis's Plate. More ahead it affirms to Strabo the following thing:

"...The wealth of Iberia is further evidenced by the following facts: the Carthaginians who, along with Barcas, made a campaign against Iberia found the people in Turdetania, as the historians tell us, using silver feeding-troughs and wine-jars. And one might assume that it was from their great prosperity that the people there got the additional name of "Macraeones," (Greek makraiôn: "lasting long"; "long-lived"; "of the immortals") and particularly the chieftains..." (The Geography of Strabo. Book III, Chapter 2. 14)

According to an explanation of the same Strabo, Which Homer called the Tartarus, the region of the Titanes, would be the same kingdom of Tartessós:

"...Now, that night is a thing of evil omen and associated with Hades, is obvious; also that Hades is associated with Tartarus. Accordingly, one might reasonably suppose that Homer, because he heard about Tartessus, named the farthermost of the nether-regions Tartarus after Tartessis, with a slight alteration of letters; and that he also added a mythical element, thus conserving the creative quality of poetry... As regards that worse statement, therefore, one might get a hint from the mythical invention of Tartarus that Homer had in mind the regions about Tartessus..." (The Geography of Strabo. Book III, Chapter 2. 12 y 13)

This same theory of Strabo, with respect to the creation of the myth of the Tartáro and the history of the Titanes, like an inspiration of Homer based on the knowledge of the kingdom of Tartessós, can be applied to the creation of history of Atlantis, or on the part of Solón, Critias or by another author not known, but always previous to Plato, as they demonstrate the archaic forms to it that I have discovered in texts written in Greek of the codices and old manuscripts the more known the Critias. (to see article in http://AtlantisDiscovery.com/news/ ).

In Iberia have been Iberian inscriptions that confirm the suspicions of Strabo, because they are mentioned to an Iberian town with the name of Tirtanos, which seems a mere variant (or perhaps the original form) of the Greek voices Titanos or Titanes. Other authors of the time affirm that in the forests of Tartessos the fight between the Olympic Titanes and Gods took place, that could be an allegorical memory of the same fight between Atlanteans and Athenians narrated in the Timaeus and the Critias as it has already considered in other occasions. In no place of all Mediterranean not even in own Greece has been a town that was called Titanes or Tirtanes. Only in Iberia.

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[ end quote Georgeos's book. More ahead we will continue translating the continuation.]

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Eliana García
Cádiz, Spain

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Re: Oreichalkós: Georgeos Díaz's Hypothesis, III
« Reply #7 on: Feb 26th, 2005, 06:37am »

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Quote:"... On oreichalkós, it is important to also indicate that with respect to the mines of Iberia, in concrete the famous mines of Rîo Tînto (Huelva), on his rocks more characteristic than they are of red color (Gossan calls), they appear filones or veins of "native to copper" of red color, almost always arising in the surface. Although now no longer he is so abundant (a mineral can be considered rare), the experts in archaeometalurgy of the Unîversidad dę Huelva, Spain, have verified that in the antiquity had to operate themselves with great intensity. Due to these so intense mining activities, the own river that lowers of mountains of Rîo Tînto, is of red color blood (with some zones of reddish color yellow), reason by which the river is known like Rîo Tînto, that is, "river dyed of red".

According to Avienus, or in the east antiquity river was well-known with the name of Hibero to which it calls or desribe com "OLEUM FLUMEN", that means "oil river", an unquestionable evidence of which the river had to present/display or a coloration that remembered the oil. The oil in the antiquity was not green or yellow like nowadays. The oil of the antiquity was very pure and coarse, he was not so refined as the modern industrial oil that obtains green colorations between and yellow for the olive oil. The oil of the antiquity had to present dark coloration, between red, brown and yellow dark, so that it was a very pure or heavy oil, and in addition so that it used to use an olive or fruit of the olive tree of dark or brown red color. When observing the present photos of Rîo Tînto, are observed zones where the coloration is almost identical to the one of the pure or coarse oil. Another river does not exist in any place of the world that has changed its coloration due to the immense and intensive made mining activity during thousands of years, and that in addition present exactly the colors to oreichalkós, as it is the case of the Rîo Tînto, in Andalusia, Spain.

In the mines of Rîo Tînto also have been important concentrations of chalcopyrite-sphalerite that when processing usually they offer them between 94% Zn and 95% Cu. These chalcopyrite present/display colors between red and yellow ignition and since dę has been demonstrated by scientific studies of the Universîdad Seville is mineral whose natural composition is of copper and zinc, reason why when fusing them directly, obtains brass of ignited red color due to the high content of copper. (Romero, R; Palencia, I; Carranza, F. Hydrometallurgy. Vol. 49. no. 1-2, pp. 75-86. 1 June 1998. Universîdad dę Seville)

As saying is already had, between the possible identifications of the word oreichalkós that I have proposed is the one "to mountain-copper", but in fact used to denominate to a natural-copper type of "native or". In veins and filones of mountains of Tinto River (mines of Tharsis, Cerrô Salômón), of the old empire of Tartessós, is native to copper and in addition to intense red color, although also they are in greenish brown and yellow color. When being fused this native to copper (with no need even of alloy) obtains a metal of intense red color with reflections between red and yellow dark, that is with fire reflections, as it describes Plato. In this sense, my investigations show to everything a fan of real possibilities that it demonstrates the following thing:

1. If oreichalkós were a species of alloy copper-zinc that is, brass, because exactly in Iberia copper-zinc has been samples of brass alloy and copper-zinc-lead alloy between the funeral and ceremonial objects of the Bronze Age, whereas in the rest of the Mediterranean only has been brass in Anatolia and of the same time that the one of Tartessós. Besides to be great concentrations of chalcopyrite-sphalerite from which it is possible to be obtained 94% Zn and 95% Cu. That is, a mineral that we could call native or natural brass.

2. If oreichalkós were a species of "Network Gold" (to gold-copper alloy), also in Iberia samples of "Network Gold" in ceremonial objects and of truely precious adornments have been, made from the Copper Age to the Bronze Age and principles of the Iron Age. This hypothesis can be supported in the denominations of several Tartessian cities with the name of Ori or Auri, "Gold-City", that we have already analyzed.

3. If oreichalkós were a type of "native to copper", because in Iberia also a type of "native-copper" of red color existed, in addition to it found variants of dark brown color and dark and greenish yellow color. By the remainders of dregs they know that it was in the past very abundant, and one was, fundamentally, like afloraciones in the surface, which guarantees the other identification that I propose of the term orei-chalkós like 'resurgente copper' or ' to copper that it will resurged.

Anyone of the possibilities that you select identifies with real scientific evidences (not with suppositions), found in Iberia.

Personally I do not have any doubt on the matter. You celebrate mines to them of Rîo Tînto, of Andalusia, are the same mines of which the Atlanteans extracted oreichalkós, or outside copper-gold alloy, copper-zinc alloy or any other alloy, but always with copper, as it demonstrates the name to it that the Greeks gave this mysterious metal. If he had to decide me by some of these possibilities, would be something difficult, because all of them are documented perfectly and anyone of them could have been oreichalkós, but nevertheless, I incline towards the possibility that she was a natural type of native or to copper of ignited red color like which still they are in mountains of western Andalusia. I think that it would be very important to show some words on the mines of Tinto River, that demonstrate to their enormous importance and its character of only in the antiquity…

‘…The use of copper and its principal alloys, bronze and brass, encompasses human progress since the Stone Age 60 centuries ago. The greatest copper deposit ever found, at Rio Tinto in Spain, supplied the Roman Empire and gave its name to the company. Copper has always been on the forefront of technology, a role continuing today with consumption of more than 15 million tonnes of the metal each year.

Rio Tinto's Copper group comprises Kennecott Utah Copper in the US and interests in the copper mines of Escondida in Chile, Grasberg in Indonesia, Northparkes in Australia and Palabora in South Africa, Australia and Palabora in South Africa.

In 2003, the Copper group, which also produces gold as a significant co-product, contributed approximately 23 per cent of Rio Tinto's turnover, of which 55 per cent was from copper and the remainder mostly from gold. It accounted for 32 per cent of adjusted earnings in 2003…’ [/I](http://www.riotinto.com/aboutus/groupoperation/copper.aspx )

Then, why to continue looking for oreichalkós in other places of the world?

why to continue looking for other searched carefully and complex explanations too much?

Why it is not wanted to accept proofs scientists who I contribute on oreichalkós?
(end quote, Georgeos's Book)

We want to add only two questions more than Georgeos Diaz does not do in its Atlantis's book:

Perhaps not to only have Georgeos Diaz-Montexano, like the Dr Kühne, those two letters, Dr, in front of his name, is sufficient to ignore it and to despise it?

Or perhaps for another darker reason?

Atlantean Oreichalkós Gallery: http://m.1asphost.com/Atlantida/oreichalkos
« Last Edit: Feb 26th, 2005, 07:01am by AtlantisDiscovery.com » Logged

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origenesinfo@todito.com http://www.AtlantisDiscovery.com/

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Eliana García
Cádiz, Spain

The Phoenicians captured a smelting plant on Sardinia and named it Tarshish.

quote from: http://www.theology.edu/lec17.htm
The phrase translated "trading ships" (Hebrew 'oni tarshish) in older translations is rendered simple "Ships of Tarshish". The newer rendering is the consequence of the light brought from early Phoenician trading activities in the Mediterranean. Another way of rendering the phrase would be "smelting" or "refining ships", since these were the ships hauling smelted ores from the mining towns in Sardinia and Spain. Although such colonizing and commercial activity previous to the eigth century BC was commonly denied the Phoenicians by writers on the history and arecheology of the western Mediterranean world until relatively recently, inscriptions recovered from Nora and Bosa in Sardinia prove that as early as the ninth century BC Phoenicians were colonizing and trading in the western Mediterranean. One of these inscriptions from Nora contains the name Tarshish immediately before the name Sardinia, evidently indicating that the Phoenician name of Nora was Tarshish, meaning "the Refinery."

The name "Tarshish" also occurs in an inscription of Esarhaddon, king of Assyria in the seventh century BC and refers to a Phoenician land at the opposite end of the Mediterranean from the island of Cyprus. In the light of the archeological evidence available there is not the least reason to doubt that at the time of Hiram I of Tyre (c. 969-936 BC) Phoenician commerce was already widespread in the Mediterranean, and that Tyrian seamen were able to assist Solomon in building his fleet and in furnishing the skill to operate it.
endquote

Boreas, you mentioned red serpentine. Why not, but then we must take into consideration all other kinds of red coloured stones, too. But why should they have been nearly as precious, as gold?
The two outer walls were coated with metals. This gives a great probability that also the coating of the third wall was from a metal.

Katrina, you mentioned Cassiterite. As far as I know, it has not a red colour. Tin was already used on the second wall.

It is not true that Plato has already mentioned brass among the metals in Atlantis. He said, that the covering of the outermost wall was made from "chalkos", this means translated "copper" or "ore", but not "brass", as Jowett and Bury have erroneously translated this Greek word. Lee translates: "bronze". Also all the other 15 translations into different languages I know don´t speak from brass in this case.

Elys, you provided a great amount of citations from Georgeos´ book about orichalcum. He discusses three possibilities for orichalcum:

Brass: It seems to be obvious that the Romans thought that orichalcum was brass. Cicero and Josephus lived in this time. The Roman brass coins were called "Aurichalcum" and had a value less than silver.
But that does not proof, that Plato or Solon, some centuries earlier,had the same opinion.
Brass has to be polished freequently to keep its shiny, golden appearance.

Copper-gold alloy: would keep its red golden colour over a long time, its value could have been second to pure gold. The question is if this alloy would really have been distinguished from pure gold.

Native copper: keeps its red colour over longer time only in clean atmospheres and with its natural cristal surface, not when melted or worked to produce sheets for covering the walls.

Orichalcum couldn't have been brass, bronze, copper, tin, or any of those things. According to Plato, orichalcum was orichalcum in it's raw quality, it did not need to be smelted to become orichalcum.

"they dug out of the earth whatever was to be found there, solid as well as fusile, and that which is now only a name and was then something more than a name, orichalcum, was dug out of the earth in many parts of the island, being more precious in those days than anything except gold."

Irredardless of whether any of the translations mention brass or copper, the main criteria for orichalcum seem to be (1) it was forgotten by Plato's (or Solon's) time. (2) It was prized above all other metals, save gold. (3) It gleamed with a red light.

Brass, copper, or any of those other metals, once forgotten, have never gone through a period where mankind forgot how to use them. It is at best, highly debatable whether they were ever prized above gold or even appeared in the way that Plato described. Why waste energy on following such a fruitless venture?

you wrote:
> the main criteria for orichalcum seem to be (1) it was forgotten by Plato's (or Solon's) time. (2) It was prized above all other metals, save gold. (3) It gleamed with a red light. <
When you say, that orichalcum was prized above all other metals, then it must have been a metal, too.

Donelly translates: "orichalcum was dug out of the earth in many parts of the island, and, with the exception of gold, was esteemed the most precious of metals among the men of those days."
Also Bury´s translation speaks of orichalcum as a metal: "orichalcum, which was the most precious of the metals then known, except gold".

The Bible's Table of Nations is using names Japheth and Javan to identify a collection of peoples (including Tarshish).

Japheth is equivalent to the Greek Titan named Iapetos. And Javan is equivalent to the Ionian territory the Greeks (i.e. the Eastern Mediterranean region).

The key element, at least to me, is that the bible is saying Tarshish is a "son" of the Proto-Ionian (or perhaps PRE-Ionian)
people.

Here is what the link you provided above says about this relationship.

quote from: http://users.aol.com/bible12/tarshish.htm
Javan, the son of Japheth, had four sons, "Elishah and Tarshish, Kittim and Dodanim. By these were the isles of the Gentiles" (the coasts of Europe, and in part, perhaps, of Africa, from Syria westward), "divided in their lands: every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations" (Gen. 10:4,5).

They did not proceed to occupy the then wilderness earth, in mixed parties; but separated themselves from the beginning, into great family nations. According, also, to the prevailing custom of those days, the region each family selected was named after one of its early progenitors" (As, Assyria from Asshur, Cannan from Canaan, Cush (Ethiopia) from Cush, &c)......

.....The grandsons of the high-principled Japheth, were likely to carry with them in their practical colonization, the highest attainments of the age. Gesenius, one of the best recent authorities on ancient geography, indicates the order of their settlements to be; Dodanim, at the western end of Asia Minor; Elishah, in Peloponnesus; Chittim, in Northern Greece, and, perhaps Italy; and Tarshish in Spain.
endquote

Before the era when Plato was alive, only poets had used the word oreichalkos. The great poets Homer and Hesiod wrote about oreichalkos near the 8th century BC. But then for nearly 5 centuries, up to the time of Plato, only one other Greek writer (Stesichorus ca 600 BC) used the word "oreichalkos", as tabulated in the Perseus Tufts lexicon.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2374842

However, Perseus Tufts includes a group of "related words" for each entry. We can learn some interesting information about oreichalkos by analyzing the words which Perseus Tufts says are related to oreichalkos.

a) spodiakos, spodion, or spodeo - has the meaning "to pound, smash, or crush" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout.reflang=greek;layout.reflookup=spodeo;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2396002

b) tupheres or tuphe - has the meaning "stuffed with thin leaves" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%23106052

c) krokinos - means "having a yellow color, resembling safron" http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2360067

Most modern metalurgists would recognize these related concepts as indications that oreichalkos was a "hardened" form of bronze/copper, which was generated by hammering.
For comparison, a metallurgical process of folding and re-hammering metal into many thin layers was used to create the famous "Damascus steel" and Samurai swords.

Two alternate words were available in the Greek language. Plato probably knew the following words for ore and sulfide-ore. Plato's omision of the following two words suggests that Plato knew oreichalkos was not MERELY an ore, but instead involved a metalurgical process that converted soft bronze into hardenned metal.

1) chalkolithos - has the meaning "copper ore". http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%23113138

2) misu - is a variety of copper ore found in Cyprus (i.e. probably sulfide ore of Copper). http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2368117

Thanks four your helpfull indications to Schoppe, and congratulations
Keeping in mind that everything is possible,my self,also believe that Atlantis is in the Black Sea.

And Everybody,

You must see these rock engravings in Göbüstan(Azerbayjan)if you haven't yet.

I found them yesterday!!!

It seems like they moved from rather around Caspian sea towards Black Sea or from Black Sea ( which wasn't a sea then)to East during the floods. My opinion is the latter one. Rather they drawn them or the native people of the area whom were very impresed by their visit
However this is my belief.

Don't miss it.
http://donsmaps.com/gobustan.html

Stay with love

The jist of orichalcum (for the most part ignored by you except for your opening passage) are as follows, like I said earlier:

(1) it was forgotten by Plato's (or Solon's) time.
(2) It was prized above all other metals, save gold.
(3) It gleamed with a red light.

Again, at what point in history do you believe that copper, brass, bronze, or any derivatives therein, were prized above gold or forgotten throughout history? If the answer for you is "none," that would seem to disqualify them all as candidates. Any of the derivatives that came from them would seem to be equally disqualified because the substance was known as orichalcum in it's purest form.

As for my point on orichalcum being something of volcanic origin, that actually happens to be my opinion. You seem to have allowed yourself a great deal of latitude throughout this thread discussing what criteria apply to orichalcum, this happens to be mine. Simply because Plato only mentions earthquakes and floods doesn't mean that volcanoes of some sort weren't involved. In fact, I would be surprised if they weren't. One can have all three together, and most of the lands of the Mediterranean and the Atlantic (assumed to be where Atlantis was), just so happen to have volcanoes near them.

I read today that the name of CYPRUS comes from CUPURUM which means COPPER RESERVES in Latin.

That idea certainly should not be discounted.

(1) it was forgotten by Plato's (or Solon's) time.
(2) It was prized above all other metals, save gold.
(3) It gleamed with a red light.

Maybe it's some different alloy, forgotten in Plato's time, forgotten still. Maybe none of you know what it is for the simple reason that it just isn't around anymore. Care to ponder that?

Perhaps the reason for it's value and rarity (if it WAS brass)is that the copper used was more rare than the copper of the area(Mediterr. and Asia Minor) but was that brought at great expense from N. America(Great Lakes)and was a much finer grade of copper.

At a point the cross-Atlantic importation which had taken place for thousands of years, stopped, and the mining around Lake Michigan was abandoned, not from lack of copper though....it was just ended abruptly as if those who knew how to get there were just "no more".

I totally agree that amber is limited by it's suseptibility to water in general, nevermind caustic salt water.

Brass in general darkens by exposure to elements, but perhaps it was laquered? Red brass would of course have a component to render it red.

Of course you know my opinion that there was not a place called Atlantis, but a time called Alt-land-is, but there could have been multiple cities and settlements across the world that could have the name Alt-land-is attached to them by virtue of the unique Aser influence. The the North Sea, Iberian coast, Cyprus, the Gulf of Mexico and probably even Antarctica have sunken cities that were all from a period of planet wide connection by the Aser.

Thank you for supplying us the "orichalcum" material from Perseus Tufts. It refers to the alloy "Aurichalcum" in Roman times, which we know as brass. In this special case you are agreeing completely with Georgeos, and I think there can be no doubt about, that the Romans believed that also Plato´s unknown and precious material "Oreichalkos" was brass.
But was it indeed? Akata has another opinion.

atalante,

I think you are right that the name "Cyprus" derived from copper, and not the name "copper" from Cyprus, as many historians think.

Following the citation of my contribution about the circular "Richat" structure in Mr. Schoppe´s home page, I contacted him and found out, that he lives not far from my place. So we will meet next weekend for further discussions.
In my opinion Plato cannot be understood, that Atlantis was situated in the Black Sea. But possibly there existed relations.

It is certainly a serious problem with translations from dead languages, that the translator takes his own opinion about the matter into his text. I don´t like Jowett so much, because he used in a number of cases a somewhat blurred phrasing and is not so exact as other translators. We discussed many of those examples in an earlier thread.

The Greek text of the "Critias" contains the word "metalleias" in the sentence we speak about (Crit.114E), but I don´t know Greek and cannot say, how it was used in the context.

I don´t blame you when you think that Atlantis had volcanoes, for they exist in many parts of the world. But obviously they were not as important as to characterize Atlantis, and therefore Plato did not mention them.

I agree with you that the old Greeks had a great knowledge in geography and all kind of technics. For instance in 230 BC Eratosthenes calculated the diameter of the earth nearly correctly, which knowledge became forgotten again up to the time shortly after Columbus.

Here is a quote which says that Homer discussed earrings made from oreichalkos, and Hesiod discussed greaves (= armor) made from oreichalkos.

quote from: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0063%3Aid%3Dorichalcum
The word oreichalkos first occurs in [Hom.] Hymn. in Ven. 9, where earrings of it are mentioned. It is also found in Hesiod, Sc. Herc. 122 ( greaves ); Plat. Critias, p. 114 E, p. 116 B (described as a metal no longer existent);--
endquote

I find it interesting that Plato is the only ancient writer who mentioned the color "red" in connection with oreichalkos. The Perseus Tufts word search for related words (which I posted above) considered the color of yellow safron to be related to oreichalkos. And we know that the Romans thought it should have a generally golden color.

Perhaps Plato got his mention of red oreichalkos directly from the Egyptians.