The basic source is a part of the Nordic Folklore tradition, originating from the time when the Norse - as well as other Indo-Europeans - kept their historical and cultural identity alive and evolving, - by an ongoing oral tradition.

Before a surpressing latino writng-culture expanded all over the Eurasian continent; all pagan people did keep a culture of ORAL TRADITION. Today NONE of this culture remains, except from a handfew exceptions that have survived in the remote provinces og the highest north. During the 20th century we found and catalogued such remains in the mountains of the Himalayas and the Urals, as well as the deep arctical forests of Carelia, Finland and Scandinavia.

Thus we know that the ancient societies all over Europe and Asia kept their own history, containing stories about their origin, history and identity, - and delivered to elected or choosen youngsters, with a special ability to memorize. After years of learning, practice and examination they got to be story-tellers and "wise men" for the next generation.

As any larger body of information about this world also the Nordic Myths are dwelling upon a long, ancient tradition of keeping this knowledge intact and correct.

Just Legends?!

With the introduction of the latin "writing-culture" we may observe that the old ("pagan") sagas got undermined, distorted and even prohibited. Though we may still find fragments of the genuine stuff, - inbetween the distortions and misconceptions found in most of the sagas written down during the 12th-14th centuries.

Thus it may seem as a sheer miracle that researchers within the Science of Folklore and Traditions (antropologists) still find genuine and original information - resited by memory from old people still living in remote districts of Norway, Finland and Russia...

The most fantastic story was discovered in Finland as late as 1984-85, when a complete Family Saga was revealed. Showing to be an incredibly detailed story of our ancient antiquity theese tellings was catalogued as "The Family Saga of Strömsö Manor" by the "Archive of Folk Culture" in Helsinki.

This Saga is built around a chronological history where many incidents are already known, but most are very litle or not at all known from our public history.

Moreover the Saga explains the mere roots of the caucasian people and their culture, as originating in Fenno-Scandia during ice-time (!) And even worse; it does give a very precise, logic and detailed explanation about an ancient world-wide culture, as the common source of the European, Finnish, Asian and Indian Mythologies!

Since this have been genreally unknown to humanity and our academies, the present Nordic and Finnish Institutes of History has - not surprisingly - rejected the whole concept of such a saga; as "nonsens" and non-significant"...!
Even though it is completly documented. In interviews and dicussions even Finnish authorities have dismissed this historical legacy as "fantasies and speculations".

Lost, - But Found!

None the less have more archaeological discoveries from 1993-2002 given proof to the statements given by the saga already in 1985! One clear-cut example is the statement from the saga that; "The origin of our arctic culture evolved in the Baltic Area DURING ice-time, in a time we called "Alt-land-is", meaning "All-land-ice", because the whole Eurasian continent where covered in an enormous ice-sheet, exept from a small area around the Finnish Gulf that was kept open and warm enough for our ancestors to survive, - thanks to the Gulf-stream that used to end here at that time..." (!!!)

In 1995-96 a team of Russian and Norwegian scientists discovered a highly remarkable settlement - "from modern human beeings" - within the White Sea, where more than 40.000 years old...
Even worse did it become when a Finnish truck-driver got the rigth to dig out a cavern outside Kristinestad, on Finlands western coast. In 1995 he proved that there had been people using the cave more than 70.000 years ago!
Since than Finlands State-archeologists have been exploring about 1/8 of the cave, and by 1998-2002 it was proven that humans have lived in the "wolf-cave" for more than 280.000 years - i.e. during the coldest ice-time!!!

Yet, - the "Family-saga of Strömsö Manor" is
still not given any credit, although it is given specific information about several (unknown) artefacts to be hidden underground in Finland. One of theese is the crown and the crest of arms of the authentic Finnish Kingdom, that subdued to the religious regime of Europe (becomming part of the catholic Sweden) first in 1248.

According to the Saga this kingline, as well as their insignias and symbols originated from "As-Hel"; the arctic Kingdom of Altlandis. And as we may see on maps before 1854; the old zero-meridian (today GMT) used to run from As-Hel (todays Hel-sing-ki) to Hel-As, dividing Crete into a Eastern vs. a Western hemispheres - creating the basic culture that developed into the eastern Greek and the western Roman kingdoms as of 9000 years ago.
Thus we may understand that Alt-land-is and Atlantis is refering to the same myth, based on the same historical fact!

By today an exstensive lineout of the Bock Family Saga, - with a comprehensive description of the historical Altlandis - can be found at www.bocksaga.de.

Happy New Year!

[This message has been edited by Boreas (edited 01-21-2004).]

IP: 195.159.177.126

Boreas
Member posted 01-21-2004 16:11
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Cheeeese Mr. Doodles?!
If You would care to read the article through - not to mention the "whole story" on www.bocksaga.de - it should become pretty clear exactly WHERE the old (primeval) arctical culture survived, evolving through an eon of time today called "ice-time".

The knowledge about this origin of the caicasian man, his languages and his culture obviously got lost - and modern etnology still can`t figure out from where the caucasian archetype orginiated.

But the recent findings in the Baltic area, explained by the ancient history of the newly documented Saga-material is actually giving a complete explanation, based on a completly scientifical step-stone logic.

Thanks to recent discoveries we do KNOW that modern man existed inside a pocket (rift) in the global ice-sheet, - between 3.000 - 5000 metres high - covering most all of North America, Northern Europe and Russia. Due to the ice sheet between Norway and Scotland the Gulf-stream was then forced eastwards, entering the Baltic Ocean, where it kept all of Gotland and the coastline of Finland ICE-FREE, while mainland Denmark, Germany, Poland and Russia was still covered by the glacier.

Only during the last 8-10 years (!) have we learned to KNOW that there actually existed human beeings inside this pocket in the ice. So far archeologists and geologists have detected 280.000 years old traces from this human culture, from the southern coast of Finland, - exactly where the Gulf stream once used to bounce it warm water...

Based on the old folklore tradition,the mentioned family-saga is a
source based on entirely different qualities than rumours, "qualified guesswork" or optimistic "creativity".

This information is a part of an age old, - and still new source on the Nordic history, going much more than 10.000 years back in time.

Consequently it reflects back through Ice-time (called Alt-land-is-period) and the following period, generally known as the "stone-age", beginning quite exactly 10.000 yrs ago, as the arctic population started spreding from the Baltics (with their "AsHel-culture") to the Black Sea/Mediterranean where the "HelAs-culture" was established about 9.200 yrs ago.

The Saga-material covers a lot more than this - like the basis of our present languages, our mythologies, etc. - all based on a still existing ancient and AUTHENTIC tradition of folklore and oral history-telling. Still today we find this original way of communicating essential and historical knowledge a few rural parts of the world - whereof some are now reknown as a part of the "World Heritage".

As with amazon indians, hopis, inuits, lapps, samojeds, ainus and aboriginees we also find remains of this tradition in the Northern countries, even in different languages(German/Scandinavian/Fenno-Ugrian).

And remember; the Nordic sagas - covering the same ancient stories - have been found within different etnic and linguistical groups, proving beyond doubt that they reflect a common, ancient reality of human history and culture.

Today this norse sagas can offer an OLD explanation of the context between the Meso-American, The Mediterranean and the Asian mythologies. It should give evident and obvious resons to consider (and perhaps reconsider) the value of the millenium old Sagas of the North.

Ironic ignorance is cheap - dumb arrogance even cheaper. The ones who care checking the whole story on the mentioned site (bocksaga.de) may return with some more valid reflections or qustions.

[This message has been edited by Boreas (edited 01-21-2004).]

IP: 195.159.183.12

Brig
Moderator posted 01-21-2004 17:41
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Ok, The material you referenced is interesting. I have read of some of these northernly finds. But what I read referred to them as "stone age". Caucasians did not suddenly spring up from the ground. They had to have originated someplace. This whole matter can get very complex. Are these early Finns offshots of Cro-magnon man, neanderthal, or something else. This evidence dating back 300,000 years, Unless I missed something, what was it based on? Human remains 300,000 years old, yet modern in type? Now that would be a find to set palentologists on their collective ears. I fully realize oral traditions can have validy. The ancient hebrews used oral tradition for a very long time, also, before they aquired the skill of writing.
IP: 205.188.208.39

Brig
Moderator posted 01-21-2004 17:55
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Boreas; I was not putting you or the Finn theory down. But if you had been on this site as long as I have you would understand the general skepticism. Almost every month someone comes up with a totally new location of Atlantis. Some of these people, not using anything much to back up their theories, could get wild and passionate about where they thought Atlantis was. Even on Mars....I kid you not. So, on this site, it is important to have facts to back your theories. You have a good start. Now if a gentleman named Catastrophe begins taking your theory apart, don't be insulted, be ready with facts. This is kinda the way this site is. Georgio (Atlantis in straits of Gibraltor) Sarmast (Atlantis south of Cyprus) George Erikson (Atlantis in South America) have taken and fielded some pretty tough questions and facts. This is a good place to put your theories to the test.
IP: 205.188.208.39

Catastrophe
Member posted 01-22-2004 01:08
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Boreas
I have only begun to read your reference site but I need to have more encouragement to continue.

"The official experts at the Finnish Department of Museums and Sites still do not want to even touch this highly "controversial" story or the the extraordinary cave-system information. Instead they somewhat "fanatically" keep their official line of arguments founded in1984/85 that "Mr. Bock's Saga with the mention of a large cave-system is based merely on Mr. Bock's "fantastic fantasies". Thus, thanks to bureaucratic arrogance and scientific ignorance, it still lays uncovered: the oldest treasury chambers of the ancient, arctic kingdoms known to man, which have been alluded to as "The Kingdom of Oden" from the old Norse sagas."

Is there going to be more than spending $500,000 and giving up having found ... what exactly? Possibly an entrance to something?

IP: 213.122.213.254

Catastrophe
Member posted 01-22-2004 01:44
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"In this time that was called PARADISE people lived in harmony with naturelaws and -powers. At that time the earth's axis stood perpendicular to the sun. For this reason existed a land at the North pole with a diameter of 250km where the sun never went down but instead described a golden ring at the horizon."
Is this supposed to be legend or fact?

IP: 213.122.129.96

Catastrophe
Member posted 01-22-2004 02:27
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Google "gulf stream" origin.
"The Norwegian Sea and the Gulf Stream are formed

The Earth’s appearance has varied throughout its history. The size and shape, both on land at sea, have changed because of the continental drift. 165 million years ago, the regions that today include America, Africa, Greenland and parts of Western Europe we joined in one huge continent. The Atlantic Ocean was formed trough a gradual breaking up of this continent. The northernmost parts of the Atlantic Ocean, the Norwegian Sea and the Greenland Sea have developed throughout the last 50 million years. The climate was considerably warmer than it is today, and the forerunners of the Gulf Stream in this "young" ocean were subtropical ocean currents. It is believed that an ocean circulation such as the one we have today was first established between 10 and 20 million years ago, when a subsidence in the region between Iceland and the Faeroe Islands caused the ocean to became deeper there. This provided an opportunity for balancing the warm water carried into the Norwegian Sea with outflowing deep water and the surface water of the East Greenland Current (Figure 1)."

That will do for a start.

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We think ourselves unhappy when a comet appears, but the misfortune is the comet's
Bernard de Fontenelle
The Plurality of Worlds (Paris 1686)

IP: 213.122.88.103

Spiritwalker
Member posted 01-22-2004 09:43
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Cool
IP: 67.39.254.226

Boreas
Member posted 01-24-2004 13:00
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WHO INVENTED GOD?
How long was "ice-time? When did it actually start? How wide did the ice-cap reach - how much land and ocean did it cover?
And how old is the "The naked monkey"? How old is "modern" man? How far out is Desmond Morris? Not to mention Michael Cremo?

To be minuitly exact - there is still NO answers to any of the above questions. But in our day and age it just happens that we are about aproaching all of the significances nessecary to frame the answers to theese questions.

If we want to lead a sensible and productive dialog of qustions/answers its vital that we may keep ONE topic in focus - at the time. A higly skilled American teacher I studied by genuinly reminded his students about this by the parafrase: "Be wise - or be otherwise".

THE TOPIC
Since I have focused the question of A Atlantis, or a "primary culture", existing before historical time - I permitted myself to refer to the site www.bocksaga.de where there is a column called "Altlandis". The rest of the content of this and its related web-sites may be highly interesting - but it is beside the framework of the article on top of this page.

The case is simply this; The descriptions of a "Atlantic Society & Culture" is clearly found within the Norse mythologies, specifically those of the famous poem "Voluspaa" (a oral tradition written down first time in the 11th century, and thus not lost). Further descriptions of an "Atlantean Civilisation" in the north is found in the more famous "Oera Linda Boek", a written history from the 7th century found in Groeningen, Holland - being the basis for Robert Scruttons well-known book "The Other Atlantis", published in the 1970-ties.

OLD AS NEW SCIENCE
To the learned Scandinavian it is also a well-known fact that the leading authority withing Swedens Academia during the 17th century; Prof. Olof Rudbeck sharply and exstensivly claimed that the "Atlantean Culture" of the earliest, historical Scandinavians where the basis of the Mediterranean legend of Atlantis. Conslusivly Rubeck found that "Atlantis" where in fact the primeval basis of the Scandinavian culture...!

But not before 1984/85 did we get a further explanation of this issue - when a FINNISH source of information (from the Fenno-Ugric language and culture) could refer to an age-old family-saga, actually explaining the congurence of "ice-time" and "Alt-land-is-time".

However much one turn this historical/mythological information up or down or around - it is NOT possible to dismay it. At least not before one understands the nature of this information and the realms of its sources.

THE SOURCE
Today we may dismay an old tradition because we find it "old-fashioned", "outdated" or not suitable in our techologic ("modern")reality. But within the historical research we have to acknowledge the historical and cultural information given to us by the magnitude of similar traditions from the old cultures of the world, such as the old Nordic or Norse/Indo-European culture.

Some day - as our arctical herritage gets better known - do we possibly understand that even Santa Claus, as well as Christmas itself, actually is based on traditions reflecting customs and realities of our very own anchestors life, culture and history.

So we`re back to the web-site www.bocksaga.de or www.bocksaga.com for a closer and more objective look. This time it is important to "read to reflect", rather than "read to react".

NO EASY-QUICK
I wrote the above because I tend to believe that anyone who cares to really reflect rather than react on theese matters would be in majority in this forum. Since I am getting to old to respond upon quick crack-down "analyzis", cheap contrafeit quotes, skillfull irony or intentional misunderstandings I hope the reflections on this peculiar issue may lead to a reflected discussion - rather than a stigmata between different "opinions", as if we where priests or ditto wannabes from different religions...

I try to behave rationally and I trust others to do the same. If in doubt; I ASK rather than state. If I DO understand or get somewhat enligthed I may have something to add or subtract. But I am not here with the aim to prove that anyone is wrong. Thus I dismiss the intent on putting down myself and others with nitty-gritty harrasments or airy-fairy comparisons. I am here to simply tell about the mentioned sources - and their possible implications.

Now if a majority of oceanic geologists have found it likely ("most likely") that the Gulf Stream appeared about 50 million years ago it coincide impressingly well with the statement of the Saga-material, telling that the Alt-land-is-period ("ice-time") started just about 50 million years ago. Now; which of theese sources should we trust - and which one to distrust?!

Moreover the Sagas tells that the ice-time started with a cataclysm, where a large part of the earths water evporated, to collect as damp around the poles - before it condensed and became two enormous ice-caps covering the northern resp. the southern pole-areas.

Meanwhile the Gulf-stream went over the Atlantic, hitting Biscaya - rocketting through the English Channel into the Oslo Fjord Area - where "the warm waves" could pass through "Ginnugagap" (a rift in the enormous icecap) entering the Baltic Ocean where the hot water hit the bottom of the Finish Bay - to circulate in front of the Finish archipelago.

SCIENCTIFIC PROOF?
Now; there is nothing in our knowledge about the extent of the northern ice-cap that contradicts the explanations of the saga-material - but quite the oposite! During the last 15 years it has become known that the massive ice-cap (3-5000 metres thick!) covered all the northern hemisphere. In North America down to Virginia from where it extended straigth east through the Atlantic Ocean as far as the longitude of Greenland before it started to turn north reaching Ireland and the British Isles. Because the Gulfstream was pressing north - finally via Biscaya through the English Channel and into the Oslofjord; the ice over Scandinavia could not close completly - and thus a rift was kept open. (The sagas calls it "Ginnungagap"; "The Giving-Youth-Gap"..!) Along this rift the stream kept bringing warm water from the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of Finland.

Still the rest of the isles, as well as the North Sea and whole Eurasian continent (down to the Alps and the Caucasian and Himalayan mountains) where covered by the northern ice-cap. And still today we may see the geologial, climatical and biological border between the arctical and the tropical hemispheres.

As far as I know there is still nothing found withing our natural sciences that really contradict this saga-material. As for the geology of the North Atlantic and the Fenno-Scandia it tends to support the folkore material.

VIEWS OR FACTS
Different scientists tend to have different opinions, especially on major questions within the different professions. Thus we all need critical views to fuel the prosess that ultimately gives us the "plain truth".
And as we want to be critical to any new source of information about major questions about our own history - we need to be likewise critical to the review of the geologists stating the "age and the development" of the Gulf-stream. Keep in mind that far from all geologists share the same view on that topic - and be utterly aware about the simple fact that "scientific truths" seem to be more and more shortlived.

HOW OLD IS OLD?
What is the reality behind the bocksaga statement of 50 million 10.020 years ago since the beginning of the "Alt-land-is-period"?! Is it possible that a highly spiritual or intellectual culture could evolve in this isolated existence - as they just about could survive ice-time? May Fenno-Scandia be the area where an isolated group of people had to endure that enormous time-span - evolving mentally and intectually - as well as physically; from tropicals man to articals? Since the artical ("Caucasian") man obviously exists; What peculiar circumstances was present - and how many generations did it take before an isolated branch of mankind could evolve; from a group of full-blooded tropicals to a bunch of pigmentless palefaces?!

They must have been isolated. For a very long time. According to the Bocksaga that happened as the ice-time covered the whole northern hemisphere - accept from the Baltic Ocean, with the south-coast of Finland and the Island of Gotland free of ice.

LONG TIME
We have another problem along the same line; How can we not compare the Mayan, the Norse and the Vedic time-frames - all originating from an ancient tradition of "royal story-tellers". And how should we relate theese information with geological estimates of modern time? May we trust a certain information as a fact if ALL theese sources align in the same conclusion?

Today isotope-technology is able to define time technically correct. But this technology is brand new to the historic discussion - and it has no less than revolutionized the scientific value of modern archeology. Now - the paradox is that the better scientific tools we have - the more indications and (even) proofs have occured to support the main-lines in the old folklore traditions. Even "legends" - such as the story about Atlantis" - is now about to be scientifically proved...

OLD SOURCE - NEW SURPRISE
It should be quite obvious that the sources and the stories I am refering to are NEW to most people debating Atlantis. I do understand that such scientific surprises very rarely occur - that being in science or culture. And this normality, or conservatism, is exactly the reason why the overall majority of established science refutes the whole "Atlantis-legend" as mere dream-work. But now the surprise is here - for all of us - just to be understood and enjoyed!

Furthermore; If this information is anywhere CLOSE to a historical (scientifical) truth we better hold this saga close to our eyes - and up against the sun - for further investigation, research and debate. The Finnish saga explains that - by the support of simple archeological excavations - may this ancient, oral tradition give the first conslusive proofs of the legendary culture of "Atlantis". May it than matter exactly WHERE this proofs are actually found?!

[This message has been edited by Boreas (edited 01-24-2004).]

IP: 82.164.19.161

Pytheas
Member posted 01-26-2004 07:40
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I have a question to you Boreas:
You suggest, or claim, that the english channel existed 50 million years ago.
I respectfully disagree. The channel is a big fault created in the same moment in time as the mid- atlantic transform-fault was created - about 13000 years ago.
So the gulf stream could not have reached through this channel into "Ginnugagap" before this date - Or?

IP: 82.199.189.109

Brig
Moderator posted 01-26-2004 16:38
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Doc: Scientists are still debating what made whites white. There are peoples who live in the far north, have for thousands of years, but they are hardly whiter than their southern counterparts. On the other hand there are dark skinned (not black) peoples who live pretty far south or actually on the equator up to, and to, the cusp of it who have green or even blue eyes and thin noses and lips. Some are oriental in appearance. Also the Anu of Japan are quite hairy an white. They were on the mainland of Japan before the Japanese. No Doc, the extreme whitness, blond, blue eyes, of Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, etc. have never been satisfactorily explained; though many have tried.
IP: 64.12.96.12

Though I am pretty sure that we have to bring some new and undeniable points to the discussion - hopefully backed up by concrete EVIDENCE, - as well as strong indications and clear questions.

The majority of established historians seems to be benefitting by hiding (out!?!) - in beuraucratic institutions with a prestige- or profitt-minded management, always keeping a defensive ("sceptic") attitude towards inovative issues like ours. Thus I believe that forums like this website is really needed to attend, describe and even prove the significance of the Atlantis-question. Given the meek (but not humble) treatment theese questions have begot from the "scientific historians" it seems unavoidable that "alternative sciencists" and autodidacts must do the hardwork needed to shed apropriate ligth on theese puzzles, riddles and questions. Seen in an existential perspective it may seem that theese are key-questions to our origin and our evolution. As our atomic age revolves it`s obvious that we are quickly aproaching a period of cultural flux - as a historical intermediate when we really will NEED to asses, solve and answer this basic questions - in order to keep our perspective as human beeings...

That is why I (personally) feel so encouraged when people with a real and good intellect engage and become eager adressing theese questions.

OUT OF AFRICA?
Now; what do we really know about the population that once resided in the BALTIC AREA during (minimum) 280.000 years, until the icetime ended?
Not much, - from the Finish National Board of Antiqueties - we just learned that this population DID exist, until it disapeared just before the end of ice-time, approx. 10.000 years ago. (See:www.nba.fi/wolfcave)

A recent survey within the White Sea-area have shown that an artic population ("most likely modern human beings") used to visit the White Sea - for seasonal hunting and fishing, and "possibly more permanent living" - FROM around 40.000 years ago. (See: The Norwegian/Russian "Pechora- project", presented in "Nature", Sept, 2001. (www.nature/pechora)

The most astonishing facts arrivng from the Pechora-project is that:
A. The Baltic Ocean and the White Sea was ice-free (and connected) much more than 40.000 yrs ago.
B. That modern man have lived in the high north already at that time. According to "established science" this was just about corresponding to the age of modern man in Europe, just arriving from Africa via Trans-Caucasia...!

Now we may just ask:
1. How can we explain the development of the highly specialized arctical humans - able to exist and even expand in the extreme arctical climate - just a few years after leaving the African coco-nuts and the bambo-huts? (How would todays Bantus, Tuareks or Amazone-indians survive on the, say, NORTHERN tip of todays Greenland?!)
Any suggestions???

2. As the Baltic Ocean and the White Sea was connected - where today are the Seas of Ladoga & Onega - the whole Fenno-Scandian Penninsula would actually be an ISLAND. More than 90% of the area would be covered in ice, - but along the coast-lines we find traces of an pre-historic, arctical human beeing.

ESCAPING A MOVING GLACIER
Another point to this is the nature of the events that made an end to ice-time. From Scandinavian geology we know that the largest part of the ice-cap did not melt down - but actually slided down to the North Sea and the Atlantic Ocean in the south and west, - and the Baltic Ocean to the south/east. Today we know that the enourmous glaciers moved from the high mountains to the oceans at the SPEED of 16-20 km a year.

3. A small group of articals - living in the Baltic area - evidently escaped destinction as the enourmous icemasses evidently pushed over and crushed the livelyhood along the coastlines of Fenno-Scandia.

Thus the preboreal populations of Fenno-Scandia was obviously experiencing a "cataclysm"; as the enormous sheets of frozen water started moving; destroying evrything on its way and even polishing the whole landscape of Finland and Scandinavia.

"ELLIVAAGOR" - THE LIFE SAVER
According to C-14 tests this cataclysm happened between 10.000 to 10.700 years ago. In this period there would be impossible to live anywhere in the Northern Hemisphere, accept from Southern England that have remained ice-free throughout the entire ice-time. There is a gulf-stream needed to have done that...

Though, the geological surveys of the western coast of Friesland, Holstein and Jutland (mainland Denmark) shows that "sub-tropical corall" grew along the English Channel up to the northern coasts of Denmark, until about 50 mill. years ago. Thereafter another corall, able to grow in "sub-arctical" water took over, until it ceased some 11.-12.000 years ago.

Even as far north as the inner Oslo Bay area do we find small areas that have - beyond doubst - been ice-free, throughout the entire ice-time. Moreover we find the same phenomenon in the Baltic Ocean itself, - where the large island of GOTLAND, consisting of old corall-chalck, obviously had been KEPT free of ice (by a Gulf Stream) during the ENTIRE ice-time.

NOT MICE
But on the mainlands all around the North Sea and the Baltic Ocean the up to 3000 metres thick ice-cap dwelled - keeping the winters dark, cold and long and the days of summer short and few. The norse epic "Voluspaa" refers to this as the "Finbull-winter", where "Ellivaagor" ("fired waves") came through "Ginnungagap" and - along with; "Sun shine from South; made the Stone warm, made the Green grow".

By the way; The "Voluspaa" entitle he original norsemen "Aser". One verse even explain how they once had to escape their homeyard ("Asgard") to survive at "NOA-tun"; meaning the "The Yard of Noa" - before returning home to Hel, "The Whole" (i.e. "The Hol-y"/"The Hol-i-stic").

NOT "GODS" - JUST PEOPLE.
Today we may understand "Voluspaa" and other sagas and legends as short versions of a long and ancient saga about the arctical people. Which is quite the contrary to the deceit, distortons and abstactions that still color our basic comprehension of our historical past. Sins like this was committed by an emperial religion of the 13th and 14th century - who completly changed, re-defined and rewrote most of the norse texts. Since then the comprehension of the etnic origin and cultural background of the Norsemen have become "Brute People with the Aser as a primitive Superstition of the Headon Gods".

Thus the true history of the Nordic and the Eurasian cultures was conquered, outrooted and submerged, to fit with the Latin academia of the religious Rome.

FAST AND SWIFT...
From the survival of a relativly small group - we can see that artical man is appearing in Sweden and Norway already 9.900 year ago. Just a few generations and some 500 years later we find permanent populations ALL OVER the Fenno-Scandian area.

At this time the land was completly bare - only mountains, rocks, sand and clay to be seen. And beaches, fjords and bays - with rivers, lakes and sweetwater; "as long as the eye could see..."

This primary arctical population evidently lived by fishing, - and they where already building sophisticated dog-sledges, river-boats, ocean-boats, fishing-nets and other nesseceties - traveling the coastlines and oceans.

Today Scandinavian archaeology bear witness to artical man appearing 9.900 years ago, whereafter he spread with an incredible speed - all over the northern hemisphere. This first generation of norsemen must already have been "extremly well fit, highly organised and incredibly well prepared to live, flourish and swiftly expanding on a naked landscape, under a rather extreme arctic winter. Further they must have been higly skilled and very well organised to perform this imediate and swift expension.

...FAR AND WIDE
Soon they stretched all the way to Ireland, Orkney and Feroe Island (at latest 6.000 years BP). They probably also reached Greenland and America already that time.
A similar development can be seen towards the east, especially in the period called the "Climatical Optimum" 8000-3000 years ago, when the middle temperature where 2,5-2.8 Celsius-degrees warmer than today.

Thus, the recently discovered Kennewick Man, probably a Caucasian about 9.200 years old, could have reached the Colorado-river both from the North-Atlantic and the northern rivers of Cananda - as from Asia and the Bering-streigth.

EUROPE`s OLDEST PEOPLE...
Two ars ago the Univ. of Huddersfield, doing exstensive research on the European Genome, could publish the conslusion that the present European populations are - all - a mix of two separate imigrations; one very old, one quite new. Except from the Scandinavians, whose genome still is the same as it was 10.000 years ago, - and before. Consequently there was no agraric population over-running the former hunterer-gatherers, as the main theory have said for centuries. "It sems that the Scandinavians have adopted the agriculture, at an early stage, not permitting any farming imigrants", says genetican John Richards.

That being said - doesn`t Richards discovery imply that we may have to look again on our preconceptions of the origin of agriculture?

...AND THIR CULTURE
During the last 30 years we have found that the Norwegian West Coast have hosted a Boat-building fishing-population that is just about 10.000 years old.

Over the past 25 years the span and magnitude of this culture have become very well documented. There are already a number of small exhibitions and "experiential activities" for tourists - along the coast of western/northern Norway.

This summer the present norsemen complete a "national centre" - "NORVEG" - making the first large-scale presentation of Norways 10.000 year old coast-culture. The center is in Rorvik, 200 km north-west of Trondheim. Along with local historians like myself - this is becomming a centre of research and resume for our professional historians, as well as a highly regarded tourist-attraction.

TOURIST ATTRACTION
The 6000 islands outside Rorvik is stretching far out in the N-Atlantic, bearing witness about ancient boat-trafic and navigational landmarks, - clearly indicating - though not conclusivly prooving - that this extraordinary archipelago was a key-area for the first Scandinavians, not only converning fishing, but also for oceanic travels towards the west.

According to the oldest part of the Norse Sagas we have reason to believe that this boat-culture have populated both sides of the North-Atlantic. Thus a North Atlatic "Treaty" Organisation may have existed once before - in our "ancient past" . As a royal branch of the Scandinavian Sea-Kings - and their successors of sailors and fishermen...! Anyone especially interested may drop me a line on mail.

A FRESH VIEW ON THE OLD HORIZON
Now; all theese brand new, scientifical facts actually agreees with the statements given in the mentioned Family Saga already 20 years ago. Moreover theese facts may also explain parts of the Greek legends. As when Solon/Plato tells that the Atlanteans lived on "A very large Island", that got "overrun by water".

The release of the enormous masses of ice from Finland and Scandinavia was hitting the ocean simultaniously. This evidently created centuries of flooding, substatially hightening the ocean level. A similar cause/consequence is now established to have flooded the Caspian Sea, The Black Sea and the Mediterranean, some 8.700+ years ago.

May we start with concluding that A Atlantis/Altlandis DID indeed exist?!
May I be allowed to focus on Fenno-Scandinavia - during ice-time divided from Russia by the ocean - to candidate for the "enormous island" , "far out in the ocean, outside the Pillars of Hercules"?
And; may the 10.000 years old boats - found within the arctical populations - bear witness to the "Boat People" - reaching Gibraltar and Crete already some 9.500-10.000 years ago?

[This message has been edited by Boreas (edited 01-27-2004).]

Could it be that the story-keepers in the Mediterranean area mixed or blended the rather vague memory of Atlantis, with the similarly vague (and "legendary") stories about Paradise?

According to the Bocksaga the origin of Mankind was evolving from the first family of Man, - from where all human beings descend. This happened during a period refered to as Paradise-time, when the Planet was perpendicular to the sun and the whole ball was tropical/subtropical.

As the population grew, the first family made a organisation to govern the growing family; where the first son became the (nature-chosen) King, his 10 brothers became the Kings Council, - and the 12th brother became the new breeder of the family.

Thus we got the first King of the planet. Now his 12th brother started to breed more than 12 sons/daughters; establishing offspring (called rabis) who went out to start new families and populations around the the first Ringland, called Oden - or "Eden"/"Edon".

As the Rabis established new ringlands, these where populated and governed by their very sons and daughters, who in turn also got children, who also had the right to make children. Thus the King on top of the globe enlarged the Kingdom of Man, through the "Houses" of his Sons, who in turn created Earls with their Manors - where he created the Sirs (Serfs) who went to build and populate each Yard. The serfs sons though were not to perpetuate the "Seed of Life", creating a uncontrolable number of new people.

Consequently we had a five-step pyramidal structure - in which the King is related to each and everyone in the Kingdom - through his sons, grandsons, and grand-grandsons. Thus, - from a certain point of view he became a forefather to all inhabitants. And as he descended in a straight line from the very first man and woman this "Pater Familias" was commonly known as "Allfader" - "Father-of-All".

(Today that still remains in the antique stories of "The Good/God Al-migthy", while "The Lord" actually used to refer to the Landlords, i.e. the Earls and the Rabis. "All-a" though, is seemingly clear.)

During Paradise we had a population slowly expanding - balancing against the surrounding nature, finding harmony with the universal forces. But - after a very long time some men and women got sloppy and ultimately altered the focus; away from "the good" to the indifferent, disobedient or the outright promiscuous.

As "Man turned his face away from the Good Father" Paradise-time started to cease. It all ended with a cataclysmic finale, as the whole earth got shaken and stirred and by shockwaves, - as from an Asteroid. From the oceans we got tremendous amount of water evaporating - to assemble around the poles, where it condensed during a period of only three months; to become two enormous ice-caps, one on each pole.

As said before, - within the ice-cap in the north there was a constant rift, that didn`t freeze up, - because of a stream of hot ocean-water, arriving from the cooking-pot of the Mexican Gulf (where the earth's skin is at its thinnest) towards the east along the rotation of the globe itself, - to be pressed northwards by the deep-ocean polar-currents, - arriving with water still hot - at the Finnish Bay (where the earths "skin" is at its thickest, i.e. oldest).

Inside this rift and "pocket" of the global ice-cap there was a few of the old royals surviving - even being able to recreate and regenerate themselves - becoming more and more fit to live in an arctic surrounding.

When this eonic period ended - the palewhite arcticals began to re-create contact with their southern fellow beings - who had kept their basic structure as 10 Kingdoms around in the tropical world. As the arcticals arrived they managed to reconnect to all kingdoms, reflecting on the different languages - recreating basic words from sounds familiar to all men.

With the arrival of the arcticals in the tropics, the history of the Alt-land-is was fresh on the streets, aprox. 9.500 years ago. But today we can only see the fragments of this news, - as the true stories about us have been violated, altered, twisted, surpressed, falsified and basically forgotten. But still, - around the globe we may find parts or fragments reflecting these most dramatic periods in the history of Mankind.

Not before our day and age are we able to conduct a free and thorough research into these matters, with the nuclear techniques and tests just made avaliable through modern science.

In this retrospect we should not look too fast or hard at the discrepancies that may exist between the only sources existing that may trace us back to find, understand and even recover the lost stories about our ancient ancestors.

[This message has been edited by Boreas (edited 01-27-2004).]

IP: 195.159.180.70

tarkin22180
Member posted 01-29-2004 12:34
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Put simply, blue eyes are the result of recessive genes. I.E. it takes 2 of these genes to express blue eyes.
This is born out time and time again in today's world. Brown eyed brown haired couples can produce blue eyed blond haired ofspring. The science of genetics has already proven this.

Before the pole shift, the ice cap was centered in the Hudson Bay. Conversely, the southern ice cap was centered in the Indian Ocean just off Antarctica.

Thus, the transantarctic mountains would give protection from the cold north winds, as Plato described, to Atlantis in Antarctica! Atlantis being near what we call Marie Byrd Land near had a mild climate.

Finland, would be mild, though not via the gulf stream, but by its relatively distant location from the ice cap of long ago.

The fact that more and more "underwater" cities are being discovered lends strength to the arguement that the ocean levels were 200 to 300 feet below current levels, as predicted by an ice cap in the Hudson Bay.

John

1.12 Now if we where all brown-eyed; How could the blue-eyed mutation occur? How many generations would it take? And what pre-condition are demanded?!

1.2 Since brown-eyes always have been dominant - doesn`t it clearly suggest that the blue-eyed mutation must have developed IN ISOLATION - over a number of generations?
HOW many generations it will take is hopefully a question that the geneticians of today may be able to elaborate. Anyone knowing of some scientifical research on this matter?

1.3 ICE-TIME: The maximum spread of the ice-caps - and the sequences of the melting-preocesses are still not close to "conslusive knowledge". But we are getting closer all the time! The recent issue of the scientific journal "Nature" is bringing the last update. Just click to: www.naturemagazine.uk

2.0 Great web-site You refer to Atalante! The Italian professor Felice Vinci - a leading authority on Homeric Litterature - is incredibly spot on to something "really big" here. Funny that it conicides so incredibly well with the Finish Sagas...

2.1 In the oldest greek litterature we can also read about "Hyperborea" is the land at the northern rim of the world - inhabitated by the "peacefull, blissfull and longlived".

2.2 Moreover, a decade ago I heard present Greek historians (mythologists) explaining that Apollon where arriving to Olympos from the high North. A similar "legend" is said to be refered in India, where Hanuman where descending from the high north.

3.0 According to different myths - from around the globe - we hear of a "Golden Age" of Humankind, also refered to as the "Paradise-time".

3.1 After Paradise we got "the expeltion" as the paradisial culture broke up - to finally cease and terminate. This is explained in different ways by differnt traditions; but they all agree to the core of the matter - that "Man behaving studiply" was the initial cause of the downfall. The occurence of the enormous ice-caps was a cataclysmic consequence.

3.2 With glimmering glaciers and sparkling snowflakes the southern populations could talk of a "Silver Age", when a isolated group in the north experienced a horrible climate ("Fimbulwinter") - initiated a period of complete isolation, because all the land around them where entirely covered with ice. In Scandinavian tongue that is (still!) called "Alt-Land-is", which may answer the question about what language the Atlantens spoke...

3.3 After the fall of Paradise - and "The Kingdom of the Heavens" - we got a period of several kingdoms, also litterated as "The Kingdoms of The Earth". Now mankind developed into different brancehes within the different geographical parts. Still we find theese different races, cultures and languages. In the very east the Chineese still are Chineese, the Indians still Indians, - and so on until we find the Inkas at the western rim of the world.

3.4 All theese people are obviously more than 10.000 years old. And it is still a puzzle to me how "modern man" could have been developing into 10-12 completly different races/cultures and languages in just about 40.000 years - when ALL "modern man" are said to have been jumping out of Africa.

3.5 By the way: During the press-conference before the Sydney Olympic 2000 it was "released" that Australian scientists just have been finding remains of Aboriginals that more than 110.000 years old. Does that mean that the "Out of Africa-THEORY" (70-40.000 BP) is outdated - OR does it mean that the Aboriginal populations does not belong to "Homo Sapiens sapiens" ?!?

3.6 There are obviously great revisions to be made in our modern science. But - as I have been pointing to in this forum; there is now existing - in public - a source of information from the old traditions of Saga- and Story-telling that actually gives an outrigth, detailed and chronological explanation to the different periods of development that Mankind have gone through.
Now - WE may choose to ignore or even dismay this source - but that would be ignoring and dismaying our very own history...

4.0 The Bockström Family Saga gives a broad resume of our legendary, mythological and cultural history. As the isolated arctic population where able to keep the MEMORY of our common Paradise-time; as they survived the eonic ice-time in a local isolation.

4.1 As they finally survived "Alt-land-is-time" this Arctical "Boat-people" where able to reconnect with the different tropical kingdoms, as in the Mediterrenean about 9.500 years ago.
Here they got known as the "Atlanteans" explaining to come from the "Atlantis" - as they told their story about their hard time of isolation during the "Alt-land-is-period" (All-land-ice-period).

4.2 Included in their Sagas where the Atlanteans memory of Mans common origin and his ancient "high-culture", during Paradise-time.
Besides an extraordinary knowledge of the past the Atlanteans (Good men - Goods) should have brougth different "goods" to their tropical brethren, such as domestic plants and animals,as well as the technological prosessing of different metals for decoration and tool-making.

4.3 About 4.000-3.500 years ago we know that violence and war started to spread in Major Asia, soon reaching Persia, Greece and Egypt. Finanly also the Roman population got infected by "the culture of war".

4.31 From then on the historical treasures, the finer arts and the old tradions of knowledge and culture got distorted and destructed. Finally the entire classical culture, such as the Egyptian, Greek and Roman got destroyed, - as did their liberaries, their olympics and their academies.

4.32 At the end of "The Bronze Age" we may see how Solon and Plato where of the only few who was still able to keep A MEMORY of the very roots of the classical Greek-Roman culture.

4.4 As the famous Caesar organised criminals and bred murderers ("solidiers") into a horrendous army, tyrrany and the culture of war also broke into Europe. Thus the classical Celtic culture was splintered, but it still took a millenium before the most "peaceful corner of the world"; Scandinavia, was conquerred.

4.5 By the 16th century the culture of death and destruction had accelrated to enormous dimensions as even "The New World" - "Terra Fortunate" - was to be raped, masacred and plundered. And, - as we all know - this most unfortunate of all cultures are still ruling major parts of our world.

5.0 Only in the most remote parts of the Northern Hemisphere where the substantial knowledge from Antiquety able to survive the last two milleniums massive destruction of civilisations and culture. But the complete and historical Saga of Humanitys ancient Antiquety was only kept in the Boxström Family - the last remaining descendents from the ancient "Kingdom of Vinland" (Finland). According to the legends refered to in a present article in Atlantis Rising - about the Spanish conquistador De Soto - this Old Vinland was the "sacred place" where "The Hall of Records" are to be found. See also: www.bocksaga.de and look at the menu under: Leminkainen.

Boreas
Member posted 01-29-2004 21:53
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Look at the Sagas web-site Brigg - there is a story about a hallway in different northern myths and legends.
In the Saga from 1984 it was pointed to a mountain top in the Finish countryside of "Sibbo" (compare de Soto`s "Cibola")where the entrance was said to be. Furthermore the nature of the entrance was explained in detail.
As You may read there was a large excavation done in the years 1987-1992 that really proved that the entrance of the hallway DOES exist. Before the funding ran out the crew had dug out a 4x5 metres wide hallway going about 70 metres straigth into the mountain...

IP: 195.159.182.67

tarkin22180
Member posted 02-02-2004 13:17
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Boreas,
No big arguement from me.

The science of genetics is more complicated. For example 3 out of 4 is a good estimate. But put more concisely, each child has a 25% chance of expressing the blue eyed blond haired trait (assuming both partners carry the recessive gene). As you know, flipping a coin randomly is a 50 - 50 proposition, yet just because you got a heads the first time does not mean that you will get a tails on the next flip. I've seen 8 heads in a row. But over the long haul, the percentage is 50 - 50.

There is the complication that the couple only had three children! The bottom line is that the brown eyed brown haired people can carry the recessive gene. Another example, say one partner carries the brown and the blue eyed gene, but the other partner doesn't (brown,blue + brown,brown). The percentage changes.

What we do know is that (blue,blue + blue, blue) always produces a blue eyed offspring. If a population of recessive traits was isolated, it is a fact that the children would all be blue eyed.

There are many combinations of genes available to humans in general. The mixing of these genes produce great variety.

As far as the first humans, debate continues. Were we the result of millions of years of genetic recombinations and mutations? Or were we "created"? I've heard many stories and myths explaining the Red, Black, Yellow, and White races. The human blood types (O, A, B, AB and their positive and negative sub types) is also a puzzle. Why do two of our chromosomes look "fused" together? Were humans indeed created in the "gods" own image? The Sumerians say their gods, the Anunnaki, created humans. Of note, the Sumerians have accurate written description of the planets (long before modern man sent a space probe).

The Boxström Family site mentioned here is interesting. Verbal details in the stories have been verified. Ring Land is a nice concept. Perhaps there was a time that the earth axis was truly perpendiclar to the sun. We know that it was not always 23 degrees. I'm sure more and more archeaological finds will happen that will further our knowledge of ancient times.

Can you imagine the Roman general's expression when he saw for the first time that the Celts had chariots!

Plato's casual reference to the "counter continent" in the Atlantis story blows me away!

The Incas and Spanish have myths about a white people that came from the south.

I believe that Flem-Ath proposed that the remnants of the Atlantians (in Antarctica) migrated north after the "sinking". Plato says that Atlantis was a vast maritime power before the disaster. A vast maritime power would have "colonies" through out the world. This is a plausible explaination of ancient cultures we are discovering or have already discovered.

Lots of pieces of the puzzle to put together. The big picture is harder still in that a lot of the pieces have yet to be discovered!

John

IP: 128.231.88.4

The place where this was happening was to be called O-den, as in "The O", meaning "The Circle". According to the myth the land of "Oden" was placed at the "top of the pole" with "Hel" ("Whole") as its centre.
From here the first human beeings (the twins) where able to succesfully mate, - to breed the first family of human beings, calling themselves "Aser".

According to the Bocksaga already the first two people (Fröy and Fröya) had a complete vocalubary of human sounds. Thus they created the first language - later called "Rot" ("root"). This is said to still be exisiting in the northern hemisphere.

From the pole within the first circle (pi); "pee-pole" or "people" became fruitful and spread throughout the planet, according to a plan to maintain a natural natural and good life. This period was then called "Paradise-time".

At one point men deviated from the natural and good life, creating the preconditions for a great cataclysm hitting the eart about 50 million years ago. The Saga describe this dramatic shift as a relocation of the earths axis - starting a climatical disaster, as the northern and southern hemisphere got iced down by two enourmous ice-caps. As said before that was to be the start of "Alt-land-is-time", - today known as "ice-time".

As one may know "ice-time" is a pretty new concept, as is modern Geology. Thus the information from the Saga is even more puzzeling, as it describes a lot of specifics about the ice-caps that just have been discovered by current science.

The Saga tells that the old north pole was situated where we today find the far thickest part of the earth surface, today known as the Fenno-Scandic shield. Further it states that the old ringland of Oden - the centre during Paradise-time - now is to be found in Finland, where we (still) find the county of Oden-ma, with its centre Hel-sinki. How could the old oral tradition so explicitly tell where modern Geophysics would discover the thickest part of the earths entire surface?

During ice-time we had enourmous ice-caps executing substatial tectonic pressure resulting in an ongoing continental drift, isolating continents - with all their plants, animals and people. The people inside the Baltics where caugth in isolation, becomming white. Around the equatorial waters people grew into different races in different shades of coulours (as in "rays" from the sun...)

After 50 million years this isolation was broken - starting a process of reunion between the white seafarers from Altlantis and their different tropical brethren. Thus the Meso-Americans tell about their "True White Brother" arriving "from the east" and the Mediterranean myths tell about the Atlanteans. Since arcticals staying in the warm sunshine gets a rather glossy complexion of yellowish (golden) brown they where also called "the shining" - as in Meso-tomanian legends.

May this old Nordic saga actually offer an explanation to our origin? May a 50 million years long ice-time - where geographical areas and large societies got isolated - be the cause of the different "rays" (kinds) of people existing today?
Are not all speaking creatures neccesarily stemming from the same origin?
May a nanny-goat be the missing link in the evolutionary concept?! And, finally; doesnt the incredibly logic and stringent complexity of this Saga - stating a complex variety of unknown information along with well-known history and brand new scientific discoveries - in itself prove that this source of information is something far more than, say; the result of an impressive scientific theory or an ingenious, spot on intuition?!

IP: 195.159.177.254

Food for thought, the Sumerians claim that they were not only created by their gods, the Anunnaki, but that they were ruled by their gods for many hundreds of thousands of years.

The Hindu myths say man was around for several million years. They have stories about their gods fighting each other. As do the Greeks, Egyptians, Sumerians, etc. The Hindu myths describe "flying machines" used by the gods. And archeologists have found evidence that nukes were used long long ago in India.

And "ringland"? The capital city of Atlantis was composed of concentric rings! A distant mythological memory perhaps?

John

IP: 128.231.88.4

Three things that the monkey does not have but can be seen in a normal nanny goat: a big forehead, a straight spine and the female feeding organs.

This really interesting but no problem.
How about the biology, Boreas?

[This message has been edited by indy (edited 02-05-2004).]

IP: 213.73.115.110

IP: 193.217.37.182

2. The point with the hallway - already excavated - in Finland is simply this:

2.1 After centuries in private secrecy the family-saga revealed the exact location of this hallway in 1987. As You know by know this saga contains loads of historical and mythological information, also a exstensive story of "Atlantis" - explaining - in scientific TERMS - its origin and history.

2.2 To prove the validity of the whole saga-material the orator was pointing out a specific place in the Finish woodlands - in 1987 - where the entrance to this hallway should exist.

2.3 When his english/american friends wanted to see it they started excavating. And as You also know - during a major excavation a large hallway was indeed found. After five summers of work a 70 metres long - 4x5 metres wide hallway have indeed been excavated!

3. There is obviously "something" there. And thats the whole point - so far.
The statement of an entrance was proven rigth. The statement of a hallway was proven rigth. So what does this reality imply concerning the statements made about the inner end of this hallway - being an ancient temple, etc.? Worth consideration? Worth further investigation (excavation)?

The mere existence of this hallway have proven - beyond any doubt - that the orator have proven to be rigth - as far as he has been able to - or ALLOWED to - present his proofs.

4. Not only have this hallway emerged from the woodland, but also other and more recent discoveries have been proven that this family-saga must be substantial. One example beeing the statement (of 1984/85) that Finland had been populating DURING ice-time.

4.1 Througout the 1980-ties that was a completly "ridicolous" statement in the ears of contemporary science. And as late as 1995 Finish arhaeologist where completly refusing such a thougth, stating that "there where absolutely no reason to suggest that there have been people surviving in Finland before the end of ice-time, 10.000 years ago".

4.2 Now that very same year the (by now) famous Wolfcave was found. Three years later it was conclusivly proven (by Finish AND German lab-tests) that the Wolfcave contained cultural remains that ranged between 9.000 and 280.000 years. The tools, etc. here found can be viewed at www.nba.fi/wolfcave.

4.3 Now how could this presise, most incredible "foretelling" be explained?!?
How could a highly local family-saga, based on the OLD oral method of the Norse Saga-tradition, contain this astounding information?! And what does that IMPLY about the validity of this peculiar source?
Any answers, Brig?

4.4 On a neighbouring thread in this Forum somebody just used the well-known qote: "Those who have ears may hear, those who have eyes may see." Rigthly so. Not to say that all who have their good brain left may understand...

5. The mythologies, the sagas and the ancient remains of the world is there. And a lot more is to be discovered and investigated scientifically for the first time - thanks to the technical instruments that just have been developed - in our day and age.

5.1 During the last years development in this area a unknown Finish Saga have risen to prove its genuine authencity, probably of "immense" significance as its align incredibly well with the recent, but more famous descriptions made by Thomson and Cremo in their works about "Forbidden Archaeology".

6.0 When I refer to JRR Tolkien it is merely to point to the fact that he based all of his litterate works on the remains he could find from the N-European sphere.

As You may know the so-called "folklore-material" are ALL based on oral traditions - at some point collected in books. The remains from continental Europe and England are rather poor, since the monopolistic culture of the Catholic church seiously prohibited ANY information accept its own - that were only kept in latin.

6.2 At the end of the clerical regime over European culture, as the classical academias where allowed some freedom; there were only small fragments ("legends") of the old wisdom kept in Europe. Only in the Nordic countries could the 19th century scholar find pockets of information from a "non-christian" culture, - and they where all hidden in legends found only in the remote islands of the Atlantic, the remote mountains of Norway/Sweden or the deep woodlands of Finland, Carelia and Russia.

6.3 The only exception from mainland Europe and England was the legends kept by some of the old families descending from the pre-christian elite, namely some royal and some noble families. But, since start of the inqvisition (aqvisating goods for their mercy) and the massacre of the nobility known as Templars the surviving noblility of Europe had to keep any knowledge of this kind highly secret. Only in the more remote parts could the peasant familes keep some of this traditions - and than only as fairy-tales. As You may know even the Norse sagas was saved only by a handfew books - that got saved by secrecy.

6.4 Within the old Finish nobility there was TWO families that was able to understand the importance of keeping the old histories intact. So by 1248 they very counsciously kept the old tradition within their families - in complete discretion from ANY others. Not even the neighbours would get to know. If only the suspicion would arise within their own (swedish-catholic) churh - the whole family could risk persecution. Consequently this great secret had to be kept until Finland once again was to become a free and independent kingdom - which did not occur before 1917...

6.5 The legends and myths of the Finish and the Carelian countryside lived on in local gatherings though, along with some old (headon) traditions, such as Father Christmas, The Easter Egg, The May Pole, etc.

6.6. So when Tolkien - as well as other 20th century historians - wanted to recreate a European mythos, they had to turn to the Norse Sagas and the Finish legends to have anything at all..! Luckily, here they could get A understanding of what had been the basis of also the English and the European mythologies.

6.7 Tolkien became incredibly found of the Finish Myths as they had "flavoures and tastes" that did not exist (anymore) in the western part of Northern Europe. To get the best possible "taste" he even took the trouble to learn the Fenno-Ugrian language - to be able to read the original texts - which he compared to "finding a completly new wine, or even 3-4 different, completly unknown wines".

6.8 Consequently we may conclude what most litterate-students know; The basis of Tolkiens mythological world was found in the Norse and Finish myths. And they - in turn - are based on historical realities - as are any authentic mythology, rigth?!

7.0 Today a growing body of collected material from different old cultures are made available - even in english. Simultaniously the natural sciences are giving us much more and better information from archaeological sites around the globe. Meanwhile molecular biology are giving us another reference to add to the picture. And sites like this are now collecting information from different professions adressing one and the same issue.

The question rigth now is if we - the citizens of this day and age - do have the abilities needed to comprehend, understand and apreciate theese newly discovered realms of history. My belief is that readers of Atlantis Rising and participants of this Forum will be among the first to REALY get the zest of it. Wheter You like the smell of goats or not...!

[This message has been edited by Boreas (edited 02-07-2004).]

IP: 195.159.178.147

In the much deeper, more complex and broad Saga from Finland there is an explanation
of how "Life" occured on this planet. The information about this - and the further evolution - is quite incredible in its detail. Thus it should be refuted as "speculations" - if it wasn`t for the fact that it all co-relates step by step with modern science`s outline of the evolution in nature. The details of information can is meticiously built in one structure that can even be referenced by the linguistical impact of the names given to the different plants and animals.

As the algea turned into plants and animals we get sexual breeding. The animals takes two directions as they carry their soft-tissue either inside a capsule or outside a (bone-)structure. Thus we get reptiles AND mammals, not neccesarily one only.

Modern biology have got quite far into understanding the general principles of evolution, - but there is still much unknown about the history of its different stages back in time. We have to keep in mind that such research was not possible until the late 19th century - and even Darwin and Wallace did not dare to publish their work before the very end of their lives, due to the obvious stigmatizatiopn they would suffer from the "moral majority" of their time.

The natural sciencce of biology is - in princip - still a young profession. But the questions at hand are as old as the human beeing. And before most philosophy got abstraction and politics - during mid-eval time - there was obviously existing both real knowledge and logical explanations to the magnitude of life present on our planet.

According to this old wisdom - as it is refered in the Bocksaga - there was a evolutionary leap fron the alge to the eel to the frog. Now the frog turned into a full mammal that by time and evolution created higher species, resulting in the monkey. Another line created the hoof-animals where the goat turned out the most adaptive - or the most fitting - fourlegged animal.

The degree of adaption seem to be connected to the degree of brain capacity, what we generally call inteligence. The Bocksaga explicitly recall the most important stages of this evolution - in what we may call "scientific" terms (stringent, logical reason). And it does explicitly say that it one time happened that a monkey (succesfully)copulated with a nanny-goat, breeding a twin-couple that not only lived, but where able to copulate and - most importantly - recreate. Thus nature had - once again - created a new specie...

Since nobody have had any possibility to create such a theory out of present scientific data, it must be more than interesting to investigate this matter through molecular biology. As far as I know that still remains to be done. Until our present geneticians care to do some adequate research of this matter there is litle or nothing to add to the matter.

Except - of course, that geneticans resently concluded that there is a clear link between goats and dolphins. Genetically it seems that dolphins have arrived from goats, which implies that a branch from a higher land-mammal have returned to the shores of the ocean and further into the deep blue...

As others have commented here - there are a number of references in other myths that does point in the same direction. And we should not be surprised to learn that there actually was an earthly creature performing the function needed to jump from monkey to man.

Wouldn`t it be nice if a mythology - i.e. information from our ancient schools of knowledge - actually could answer the question about the "missing link"? I still do not see what might be so ridiculous about the nanny-goat...

IP: 195.159.188.207

Here I expect that by Asians, you specifically mean the Mongols. Their narrow eyelid slits can be an outcome of their exposure for some/many thousands of years to the DRY and perennially surrounding icy locations. This change could have been evolved to safeguard the internals of their eyes from the glare of ice or “white blindness”. This effect could have been more prominent during the Ice-Ages. Also it could have been more prominent on the Siberian side of the North Pole due to presence of relatively larger land masses (including now sunken Atlantis!) on the eastern side of the Globe.

The distinct yellowness underneath their white skin also points to some additional and unusual vitamin A storage capacity, that is not available to other races. This may indicate that they were getting their Vitamin A from the liver and meat and not from the milk etc. Also the antelope livers were intermittent and short in supply on those icy surroundings and so the body had to develop the mechanism for their storage of Vit-A. Their relatively developed calf muscles can also indicate their living originally at the northern side of Himalayan peaks during the same ice ages. I mean they faced the combination of mountainous peaks, constant icy glare and the dry ice.

Whiteness can be a common feature of cold, reduced intensity of sun rays and thermal radiation and Vitamin-D deficiency in the surroundings. So that the body coverts more and more of sun rays into Vitamin D. This can be more justified for the vegetarians than the non-vegetarians.

Whiteness of Europeans can be a somewhat different story. They were to be exposed to cold but with WET Ice and wet surroundings. They could have originated at the slopes and surroundings of Himalayas during the Ice Ages. Then they could have stayed for long near the wet regions of Caspian Sea. Then they could have migrated to North West Europe and Western side of North Pole. Here due to open proximity of Atlantic Ocean, abundance of wetness can be expected. Also the milk and liver can be available in relatively larger quantities. So no yellowness in skin due to Vit-A availability and no narrow eye slits due to reduced icy glare. Here further increase in skin whiteness due to reduced Vit-D from sun rays can be expected.

The blue colored eyes and golden hairs can be the mutation as a resultant of reduced UV radiation during the Ice Ages. Theoretically this could have affected equally to both the European and Mongol variants. However narrower Mongol eyelid slits could have been less exposed and so less prone to mutations arising out of variations in the UV radiation levels. Also the black Mongol hairs would not have altered much to golden hairs as the dryness in air does not support weak hairs.

So most of the things may be dependent on “Dry White Blindness Vs Wet Ice”, Exposure to UV radiation, Vit A & D deficiencies etc.

With Regards...

IP: 210.214.154.215

kind regards...

IP: 213.73.114.242

According to the genetican John Richards at the Univ. of Huddersfield (GBR) the oldest populations in todays Europe is to be found in Scandinavia, where they came "more that 10.000 years ago".

Brand new archeological evidences from both Norway, Finland and Russia actually states (with 100 % scientific proofs) that modern man inhabitated the northernmost area of the Fenno-Scandic shield DURING ice-time, i.e. 10-40.000 years ago.

The discovery of a peculiar setlement in Finland are now under hot discussion, since it contradicts the common opinion (read: theory) that modern man emigrated out of Africa about 70.000 years ago - to reach Europe about 40.000 years ago. The finding of Susiluola ("The Wolf Cave"), 30 km outside the Finish city of Kristinestad contains human remains more that 280.000 years old. See; www.nba.fi/wolfcave.

Since the general opinion of biology "states" that mankind at this point where not evolved to homo sapiens sapiens yet, the conclusion of the Finish archaeologists and historians are keeping "due course" announcing that the Susisluola was inhabitted by Neanderthals.
Though there are NO technical evidence found to substantiate that statement. On the contrary; experts on the Neanderthals from sourthern Germany and Cro-Magnon of southern France and Spain both have determined that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons where NOT able to conduct an arctical life. This have even been used as an explanation to why the Neanderthals and the Cro- Magnons "disappeared" - to the benefit of "modern man".

Consequently the recent discoveries from Fenno-Scandia, - of both biological and archaological as cultural nature - are obviously more in tune with the controversial material recently presented by Michael Cremo and Ron L. Thompson. Thus we may have to admit that conemporary science still is in the mist about the REALITY of out origin and history on this planet.

When the Finish Saga refers the legend of Atlantis in a most delibrate way it may be our duty to give it a "fair call" and an objective investigation.
One point I already have made is the fact that Fenno-Scandia during ice-time was an ISLAND (rather than a penninsula) - as the ocean passed from the Finish Bay over Ladoga and Onega to the White Sea. Thus the survivors of the cataclysmic end of the ice-time would say they "came from an island, larger than Libya and Asia together..." as the Greek/Egyptian sources are telling.

The later stories from the Homeric litterature are now pointing in the same direction - documented with a solid and convincing material by the italian Dr. Felipe Vinci. That Dr. Vincis conclusions are highly controversial doesn`t change the matter that he has been revealing hard, new facts on theese old matters.

We can`t change the history of the earth, of life and of humankind. But we may be able to change our understanding of it.
During the last century alone the general understanding of the age of man have changed a number of times - starting with some 6-7000 years (since "Adam and Eve") and ending with todays ASSESMENT of 5-6 million years, since "Homo habilis". And - by the way - the explanations of the origin, cause, course and effects of the Gulf-stream have also changed dramatically over the last decades. Not to mention the history of the ice-time. And both theese topics are still not being finally and completly understood. Just ask any serious and professional geologist.

During the last century modern science have gone through numerous aletrations and changes in their opinions about the origin of man. Thus it should not be too difficult to understand that OUR presumptions - that we often hold as facts - again will change. The mentioned discoveries are indeed pointing to that we - again - will have to re-examine the basic understanding of our own history, in - yet another - new ligth.

Have a good and reflective week-end!

[This message has been edited by Boreas (edited 02-14-2004).]

IP: 193.216.90.16

What about the extra-ordinary adjustment to milk-fat and -proteins? Would not that pre-clude an "evolutionary" process of consuming milk-products?

[This message has been edited by Boreas (edited 02-13-2004).]

IP: 193.216.90.16

All other Mongolian phenomenon could have reached to their zenith on the Siberian side.

Regarding the milk tolerance factor, I think that the peoples who had ancient connections genetically or culturally with the shepherds, cattle owners, Gaderias, Yadvas, Ahirs etc. can be expected to be the milk tolerant. This I feel to be some ancient Atlantean legacy. On the other end of this scale, the people who appear to be milk-intolerant may be basically sea-food dependent or dependent on meat and soft bones of the wild animals. Regarding Vitamin-D, I think that the sun rays are essential for its effective assimilation in the body and the pale white skin may permit it more and more.

So I consider that the evolutionary process of milk consumption and pulse eating has passed through the ventury of Atlantis.

With Regards...

IP: 210.214.154.196

From the facts now known, about the existence of an arctic population during ice-time, - it may be highly relevant to look into a new explanation to the development of AGRICULTURE. It may look like the culture of organised far5ming have developed due to a certain NEED, - congruent with the facts today known about the living-conditions during Baltic ice-time.

This may even coincide with the Mediterranean (and other) stories known about the "shining" ("boat-people", etc.) -
or the "good people" - bringing their natural goods to their tropical brethren. That may also explain the latest archaeological discoveries, as the spread of agricultural knowledge, plants and animals around the sub-tropic and tropic hemisphere.
As we know today agriculture occured in the Anatolian and Etiopian highlands (SUB-tropic climate) about 9.200 years ago.

If agriculture developed in the isolated Baltic, to start spreading in all directions after ice-time - it may also start to explain why theese few but remarkable Atlanteans got such a high regard within ALL the regions of the tropics. Under different names do we find the "Atlanteans", the "shining", the "gods" and the "true white brother" - arriving with extraordinary knowledge of nature and skills of technical kind.

A remarkable discovery is that the Etiopians imported five plants and five domestic animals simultaniously 9.200 BP. The same point is even underlined by the discovery that the same area completed their life-stock with five more domestic animals - arriving simultaniously (!) about 7.400 years ago.

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According to the same saga there was - about 5-6000 years ago - a imigration to the arctical area from the Himalayan mountains. The Mongolians had long before discovered a rift in the global ice-cap created by the Uralian mountain-chain. Here the Mongul (meaning "yellow-tanned") arrived to the arctic ocean, from where they spread both east and west. We can still find the successors of this immigrations, - spread out in 12 different families - today tribes - still to be found around the North pole...!

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The emigration of the arctical "Asers" - to the subtropic and tropical areas was - for obvious reasons - a bit more easy. As they met with their tropical brethren theese arcticals, as any caucasian today, could enjoy a better climate; from which they became "shining brown". The Finish Bocksaga tells explcitly about the Aser arriving to 10 different tropical kingdoms - straigth after ice-time. Hereto we have only had "tropical" legends describing these arrivals, such as the legends of the Incas, Mayas, Aztecs, Hopis, Greek, Egyptian, Sumerian and Vedic. With the Nordic myths and sagas, and finally the "Bocksaga" we can add a highly essential and clarifying piece to the overall picture.

In the sagas from Sweden, Norway, Brittan, Iceland and Faroe Islands the first arctical population is known to have called themselves "As-er". But from the later Norse Sagas - written during the religious regime of the Rome - we find the "Aser" redefined as "Headon Gods". A paralell treatment was already given to the legimate rulers of both the Greek as the Roman cultures, who both where overrun by warlords that evidently became "tyrrant-kings". With the clarifications from the Bocksaga it may be understod how Zeus and Jupiter - with their complete courts (Pantheons), - once was a real-life kingdom with a hands-on gouvernment of the old, legitimate Greek and the Roman cultures.

According to the Bocksaga they both originated on Crete, straigth south of Hel, todays Hel-sing-ki. This happened just after the Aser escaped the ice-time and arrived in the Mediterranean (about 9.500 years ago) where they made a pact with their tropical brethren, establishing one Eastern and one Western Kingdom, with Zeus/Pan and Jupiter/Bochus as their respective head-titles.

This happened with the support from the old, Finish capitol "Hel" ("Whole"/"Holi") and their "As-Hel-culture". Thus we may find the orgin of the "Hel-As-culture", created on Crete about 9.500 years ago. This is also giving a straigth, logical explanation of the relationship between Crete and the origin of the Mediterranean cultures, as well as their connection to a historical "Alt-land-is" ("All-land-ice").
Just note the potential sigificance of old names like Hel-io-pol-is, Per-Se-pol-is and Agro- or Akro-pol-is.

If one cares to do the work needed to understand the basic sound-system behind the Fenno-Scandic languages one will find inherent, but completly clear meanings in a lot of the names, places and persons of ancient stories. From this lingvistical codex - collected in a stringent and logic sound-system called the Alphabet (!) - one may find an overwhelming amount of relations between the arctical and the tropical myths. Just to indicate how far and wide this sound-system have reached I may mention how the sound "A" - as in "As" - still remains in essential tropical names, from Az-tec (and Co-As-Co-A-tell...) to As-tor-ia, As-ov, As-ia and even A(u)s-tral-ia.

The more one gets to understand from the different mythologies of the world the more one tend to reconize their similarieties, both in structures and functions. If one add the arctic mythologies to the picture it becomes clear that they all arrive from a common, ancient time and culture.
With the newly revealed Bocksaga at hand it even becomes possible to understand the HISTORICAL main-lines of our common, cultural background. We just have to be open and non-prejudicial, but objective and truly scientific about the matter.

It may simply be for us to enjoy,
what we are all about getting to know.

[This message has been edited by Boreas (edited 02-19-2004).]

One HUGE mistake in the Bock Saga is the fact that there is no such place as UUDENMAA in Finland. It's UUSIMAA meaning new land, given by the Swedish people when they moved eastwards. The genetive form of 'uusi' is 'uuden' hence 'the area of uusimaa' is 'uudenmaan lääni'. It's rediculous to state that the name whould have anything to do with the Norse god Oden.

During the rading I found many similiar 'facts' that are not true. Anyway the story is compelling and there might be some truth in there too.

The part called 'Masterplan' had not much thruth in it whatsoever. Statements like 'Festival was held at the winter solstice, 22nd of December, 23rd was the day to sacrifice, (the ”X”in X:mas means two men to ”drink” each others sperm in ”69” position)' would back that up...

The Bock saga's idea is different to many other theories and maybe not so "cool" as some other visions about the Atlantis. I however regard the Bock saga's idea of it very clever, which definetly doesn't mean that I regard all other information about Atlantis as a false information. After all, the Bock's saga is only a family saga of one family.

I think that the birth of the white race according to the Bock saga is a logical idea. Also it's easy to understand why Nordic people would worship return of the sun after every winter if one thinks about Bock saga's vision about the arrival of the ice-age.

The time-frame of the saga's Alt-land-is sounds to me like a rounded number (50 million years). I'm also aware that currently scientists think that there were several (four) ice-ages, not just one during the last ca 100 000 years.

Acid wrote:
"One HUGE mistake in the Bock Saga is the fact that there is no such place as UUDENMAA in Finland."

What kind of mistake is that? Bock saga (to my knownledge) doesn't say that in the modern Finland exists a place called Uudenmaa... Saga simply says that there used to be a place called Uudenmaa. And think about this: at the coast of the Uusimaa there exists an island called "Odensö" ("Oden's island" in Swedish). Doesn't it someway point to the connection between Uusimaa and Oden? Kristfrid Ganander also mentions the island in his book "Mythologia Fennica".

And Boreas: it's "Finnish", not "Finish"...

[This message has been edited by Faravid (edited 02-24-2004).]

Regarding the fertility cult you mentioned earlier in the context of the Bock saga it's interesting to note how the modern science regards it healthy for one's health.

Atlantis is the place of the copper water in the American derivation. Not too close to the "All Land Ice" derivation. Let us not forget that Olympus (the home of the Greek gods) has been claimed to be derived from Atlantis (by Ignatius Donnelly).

My second question is the caste system described by the Bock Saga. Seems this comes straight from India (or vice a versa depending on one's point of view). I've not heard this said of Norse mythology (till the Bock Saga). Is there independent evidence to verify this claim?

John

Hi John,
regarding the "copper water" which you mentioned I have to say I have never heard of such thing.

You asked also of an independent evidence to verify claim of Nordic caste system. I also haven't read from anywhere else that there would have been any similar system. (Perhaps there's something similar in the "Oera Linda book", I don't know.) Of course the general history knows the different social statuses (karj, jarl, etc.) of the old Nordic societys, but I believe researches tend to think that they existed mainly at the Viking era (and after) and were not connected in any major way to the creating of the next generations. Of the Aser-Vaner-system in Finland I have found only one weak clue. In his book "Mythologia Fennica" (published 1789) Kristfrid Ganander mentions one count Bonde who believed that the "Asars" had led the Finns in the ancient times. (The count used as a proof some words, little like in the Bock saga words are analyzed.)

boreas - does anything regarding theories of lloyd pye, i.e. genetics and agriculture ring a bell? can some of it fit the equation? interested to hear your take on those.

one thing i would like to point out about linguistics. coincidence of sounds and utterences - it happens. just because some culture used a certain term or spelling, doesn't imply a connection to a similar term or spelling. yes, there usually is a connection, but not always. kirk out