If we are going to go around editing one another's posts, I would say that the particular term I would take offense to, would be the term "fudamentalist" which Jshsitar seems to employ each time he begins sinking now during the course of the discussion. Please do a search and omit that word from all his posts.

Jshsitar,

My GPA (grade point average) is a solid 4.00/4.00, thank you very much, I wonder, can say the same? I don't wonder that you wouldn't want any more responses from me. You haven't even managed to defend against any of the points I have raised. (Don't worry, you'll still get them, I could care less what you say or don't say in return) You truly haven't read Timaeus and Critias, have you? You have yet to make a single valid, comprehensible point during this discussion and, since the facts aren't on your side, you have resorted to lowly derision and character assasination. Not only that, you emply the even more juvenile tactic of misrepresenting my statements to others.

Here is how you represented my side of the argument:

quote:

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The Ramayana is a story about Atlantis.

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Actually, all I said on this point was: "I still maintain, until someone conclusively finds Atlantis, or proof of it's nonexistence, we don't really know what is exactly related to it and what isn't."

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Plato went to India.

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Actually, fellow forum member Atalante first raised that point, I only said that I had heard it before as well, and produced a reference to it (which is more than you ever have for any of your points).

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Sir Arthur Evans was wrong (about what we still do not know).

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Uhm, about Crete being Atlantis. Isn't that what this discussion was about?

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Geologists are wrong.

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I never said that. They can be, though, anything human often is (you, for instance).

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There is a written record of Atlantis from 9500 BC burried somewhere in Egypt.

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And I never said that either, I said the record was part of a sacred register written in their temples, which is how it managed to survive through the ages (please read Timaeus), the point being that there was actually very little dependence on the oral tradition you seem to think so little of.

You have not raised a single fact to support your point here that Crete was Atlantis, whether it be historical or geological. All you have is supposition, backed up by insults and that is it. Jshsitar, you are not only a lousy debater, you are a sore loser as well.

Since you paraphrased my statements so badly, let's now look at a few of the ones you offered to make your case. Unlike you, though, I will print your whole quote so everyone can see your debating tactics:

quote:

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Like I said, earlier, Plato was probably writing Historical Fiction, so everything does not have to match.

Given that Plato's account is most definitely wrong, it is pointless to quote him to try and debunk the Minoan Theory. Its not the theory that is wrong, it is Plato.

To deny similarities between Atlantis and local Mediterranean cultures is also ridiculous.

It also seems to me that you are using a fairly rigid yardstick when comparing Crete and Atlantis. Do you really think that this is fair?

You're in good company; You and Plato- both wrong!

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And, my favorite one, of course:

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It is easy to point out differences, but similarly, if you believe the Minoan Theory, then it makes sense. A few discrepancies are nothing!

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Then, of course, when all else fails, and you are at your rope's end, of course, resort to more juvenile name-calling:

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Its interesting that you as an amateur think you know more than seasoned academics in the field of antiquities and geology. Its is easy to see your angle and I have pointed it out several times. You are a fundamentalist.

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Actually, you are the amateur, Jshsitar, and it shows. You don't know a thing about Atlantis, Plato, the Greeks, ancient history, Greek literature, or even the field of archaeology. You haven't read Plato, and your one line of defense in that seems to condemn the people who have. I would also say that your blind (and completely groundless) faith in the flawed Minoan theory at the very least puts you in the same category as the Atlantis religious zealotry that you suggest of others, like me. That is a thousand times worse than what you accuse the Atlantis theorists of. Minoan theory is one bad assumption built upon another, and your one defense of it is to say that Plato didn't know what he was talking about.

But this one reaches a new low:

"Plato wrote utter garbage, believe what I'm telling you or else you're a religious zealot."

That seems to be what this is saying. Bull s***. (And I mean that in reference to the Minoans, pun intended). In the first place, if you're going to say that Plato based the account on the Minoans, you might as well say that he simply made the whole thing up in the first place, like Brig is saying. There is no historical comparison between Crete and Atlantis. Even the conflicts between the Minoans and Mycenaens do not resemble Atlantis vs. Athens. And the Minoan/Mycenane conflicts are typically dated later than the Santorini explosion, not before, as with the war in Athens and Atlantis. More than likely, if Plato did make the account up, it was from a combination of sources, with very little being borrowed from Crete.

Second, the point about Santorini not destroying Minoan civilization and that no bodies have ever been found there is a valid one. The whole Minoan argument seems to rest on that, plus that Plato was mistaken in the time period, and location. Crete has been inhabited, continuously since 3000 b.c., with the first settlers coming at about 6000 b.c. In fact, it still had people on it in Plato's time: never destroyed, never wiped out by floods, most importantly, the Minoans were still working on their crafts hundreds of years after Santorini exploded.

It's also very hypocritical to say that only "trained professionals" are qualified to comment on Atlantis, when, for the most part, most haven't even done any research into it (or even shown the slightest interest in doing so). They are also the people that gave us this very shallow and very flawed Minoan theory in the first place. And, by the way, how do you know how qualified the people you're talking to are? Many of the people I know here either have their degrees or are working towards them, and, at the very least, seem to have been studying ancient history. I have a degree myself.

Your quote;

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Jshsitar, I definitely agree that the Atlantis tradition would have had a hard time being preserved accurately over nine thousand years. I don't agree on Crete as the basis for Atlantis, though, for reasons I already mentioned, although, I suppose it's still possible

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It seems that between 12/10/04 and today you have gone from position of agreeing that the Minoan theory is possible to one that is totally opposed to it.

Your perception of the course of this debate is yours alone. It seems that you are so out of control, that you can not confine your discussion to the issues and rather have begun to attack Farshores and my hometown (Vancouver). I take this as a premonition of an imminent invasion by a country that values fundamentalism so much that they made one the head of state. Anything more to brag about?

I have been here since the summer and I believe you're the first person, other than myself, to ever bring up Santorini/Crete in this forum. My own personal opinion is that Atlantis (if it truly existed), would have had to of been some place of either extraordinary size or accomplishment to warrant being the inspiration for the Atlantis story. Thera is far too small to fit the bill, and the references to it's location, "beyond the Pillars of Hercules" are quite specific. And so, I have always thought to look elsewhere. When you think about if, it is really quite remarkable just how many people haven't accepted the Santorini theory. It's true that many in mainstream science certainly accepts it, yet the general public seems to have ignored it altogether. We wouldn't, after all, still be searching for Atlantis in places like Cyprus, Cuba, Indonesia and South America (to name a few), if that were the case. I can't think of any case where science has put forth a theory and had it so universally rejected (if not ignored) as this one, with the possible exception that mankind somehow evolved from the apes.

Thera is interesting, but, in my opinion, it is too small to have served as the inspiration for Plato's Atlantis.

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I can let the debate speak for iteslf and unlike you I do not spend my time patting myself on the back.

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No, you go around denigrating the research of others - worse!

About the idea of Minoan Crete as Atlantis, I did say it is possible, in the same vein that anything is possible. A true scientist should open his or her mind to every possibility, not close their mind to them.

I am aware that some of the people on this board are working towards degrees or have them. Do you know anything about me? That's because I have not spent my time engaged in braggadocio.

If you check back through my post, you will see that I have laid down a solid theoretical position. Thats all I was trying to do.

1. Plato believed what he wrote was accurate but he was wrong.

2, Plato mixed history and fiction to create a work of Historical Fiction.

I am not going to rewrite all my posts here, but suffice it to say that the erruption of Thera at Santorini created a tsunami that devasted the region. The culture of Minoan Crete bears a resemblance to Plato's Atlnatis. Evidence from tree-rings indicate a major ecological disaster at the time of the Santorini erruption (1628 BC). I have expanded on this elsewhere.

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"Plato wrote utter garbage, believe what I'm telling you or else you're a religious zealot."

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I don't know who you are quoting here but I never said this..

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That seems to be what this is saying. Bull s***. ....More than likely, if Plato did make the account up, it was from a combination of sources, with very little being borrowed from Crete.

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Second, the point about Santorini not destroying Minoan civilization and that no bodies have ever been found there is a valid

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well either the people got out or their bodies were washed out to sea. A 40 metre high tsunami can do that.

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James, sorry friend, but I don't see any "solid theoretical position" in your work. It seems to "it's my way and you're a religious freak if you don't buy into it."

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Again who are you quoting here. You are making up you own quotes and alledging that I said this.

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As for braggadicio, and degrees, well you opened that whole can of worms up by questioning people's credentials and calling everyone here amateurs. Some of these people here have forgotten more about Atlantis than you will probably ever know.

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I never questioned the credential of "everyone" on this board. What I have noticed is that in term of methodology there are many here who are lacking in this department. As for the forgetting more than I know... no comment.

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P.S. I did vote for George; but I wasn't voting for Bush as much as I was voting against Kerry. Though what any of that has to do with Atlantis is beyond me.

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Brig, I think it started out with this comment to JshSitar:

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I take this as a premonition of an imminent
invasion by a country that values fundamentalism so much that they made
one the head of state.

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From Trent

quote:
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"Plato wrote utter garbage, believe what I'm telling you or else you're
a religious zealot."
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I don't know who you are quoting here but I never said this..

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Nope, but you implied it with statements like:

quote:

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You should probably switch majors to Bible Studies at the World Wide Church of God University and you'll improve your GPA (Grade Point Average).

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I have mentioned the BS angle above. I see you are prepared to admit that Plato may have made up the account and included some Minoan content.

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If he made it up, he would have used a variety of sources. Your position seems to be that he only used only the Minoan sources, which makes no sense at all if you look at the account.

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James, sorry friend, but I don't see any "solid theoretical position" in your work. It seems to "it's my way and you're a religious freak if you don't buy into it."

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YOUR QUOTE:

quote:

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Again who are you quoting here. You are making up you own quotes and alledging that I said this.

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ANOTHER QUOTE OF YOURS, SAME DAY, EARLIER:

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If you check back through my post, you will see that I have laid down a solid theoretical position. Thats all I was trying to do.

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Well..?

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well either the people got out or their bodies were washed out to sea. A 40 metre high tsunami can do that.

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They probably got out, Thera was obviously developed, but all the valuables have been missing from all the places they have excavated on Thera, which would lead one to believe they had major warning that the
disaster was about to occur (or they only owned pottery).

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It seems to me that most of the posters here accept Plato verbatim and are not prepared to admit that there may be errors in his writings

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How do you know what most posters believe here? I haven't read your whole exchange here, but checking over it, the only one you seemed to have been debating is Gwen, who actually does make a pretty good case. There are many different shades, many different points of view. Brig and Proteus are right when they said you won't find many people talking about Thera/Crete, though. Old news. They have had forty years to prove that Thera was the basis for Atlantis and haven't been able to. Look at Spain, Cyprus and the shallow areas of the eastern Atlantic, that's where it's at right now.

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Just as it is possible to be a Christian and not take the bible literally, it should also be possible to research Atlantis without having to believe everything Plato wrote was accurate.

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And yet, something has to be used as a starting off point, and so, it has to be Plato. It's the earliest account (so far, anyway) and the one that some 20,000 books have been based on. Your position seems to be that it's all irrelevant, except for the teency-weency bit that might remind us of the Minoans. Highly unlikely (for many of the reasons that I pointed out yesterday). Also, in order for us to accept that the Minoans have the relevance to the Atlantis discussion that you suggest, we first have to at least know what the Santorini explosion did to them something that their ancient writings have yet to do. (Linear A being undeciphred, Linear B only partially deciphred). Anything short of that is simple supposition, which, in my book, ranks it no better than any of the other mulitiple Atlantis theories out there that place Atlantis anywhere from Antarctica to Timbuk-2.

The "Serpent Woman" (with two serpents and both breasts bare) may symbolize the common origin of these two cultures - underlining a simple historic fact of brotherhood. Since the King, his sons, grandsons and grand-grandsons were to become the procreators off all future subjects in the kingdom. (Thus all became related; genetically, culturally, socially and existentially.)

Creating their respective populations they expanded their culture to reach all corners of the Mediterranean area - as well as its many neighbours.

The organisation of these monarchies, - their constitution - are directly reflected in their Pantheons. These were the ancient rulers, - bringing a higher culture to the area, as well as organizing a broad and wide system of trade and communion. The focal figures of these respective Pantheons were Jupiter/Boccus - who ruled/populated the Western Kingdom, whereas Zeus/Pan build the eastern "brother-culture".

The Finnish Saga puts a specail focus on Crete, since it is crossed by the old O-meridian. Which went from the North Pole to Hel, the home of The Aser, forefathers to all the artical populations - crossing the midle of Crete - and Hawahi. Thus these islands became midle-points for the artical population, who existed thanks to their seafearing culture - developed inside the artical Baltico, - during a minimum of 30.000 years of Eurasian ice-time. Thus they were well prepared, - as culture, to travel rivers, lakes, high coasts and - even - oceans.

[This message has been edited by Boreas (edited 01-22-2005).]

Judi,

No, I have not read "the Chalice and the Blade", but you have peaked my interest and I intend to. If you've already read that book, of course you already know that, until about 1400 b.c., goddess worship was most prevalent throughout the Mediterranean. It's only fairly recently that the idea of a male god as the head of the pantheon came into being.

Regarding goddess worship on Crete: Potnia seems to be the main goddess of Crete worship. Potnia, or Great Goddess, is often connected with Mother Goddess worship. Potnia means either "Mistress" or "Lady", and Potnia was a mother goddess or goddess of nature. There are many epithets to the name of Potnia, which seem to indicate that either there is one goddess with many epithets or a number of different goddesses. Since there are no reliable sources during the Bronze Age, much of what we know about the various Potnias is pure speculation.

In 1903, Arthur Evans, discovered figurines of women in a structure within the palace of Knossos in Crete. The figurines have been named the "Snake Goddess". The Snake Goddess figurines of Knossos have also been associated with Mother Goddess and Fertility cults.

Other Greek gods have been mentioned in the Linear B writings on Crete and at Phylos (on the Greek mainland), but those writings have been dated to after the Mycenaens invaded, in 1450. The only names in common in both the Knossos and Pylos tablets are PO-TI-NI-JA (Potnia), PO-SE-DA-O-NE (Poseidon), and Poseidon is only mentioned, he is never pictured (to my knowledge), and only given the name "lord."

Trevor made a perfect analogy when he compared the Minoans to the ancient Indians of the new world and the Mycenaens to the Spanish conquistadors. The conflict between Minoan Crete and the Mycenaens has long been miscast, and those that make the comparisons between Crete and Atlantis continually ignore this fact. Minoan truly was a more effeminate cultre than has been imagined. The goddess-worshipping people on the mainland and the islands were apparently peaceful farmers and traders: the palace-city of Knossos on Crete has no walls around it. As such, they were probably easily overwhelmed by any chariot-riding, armored invaders.

Welcome to the forum, by the way! I hope you like it here.

I'm going to be a "fundamentalist" here. Stick to the topic, please.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=fundamentalist&x=0&y=0

quote:

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1. Plato believed what he wrote was accurate but he was wrong.

2, Plato mixed history and fiction to create a work of Historical Fiction.

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It seems to me that most of the posters here accept Plato verbatim and are not prepared to admit that there may be errors in his writings.

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No one was there when it was written or told to him. We have only what Plato wrote to go by. Therefore, no one can say whether Plato was wrong or not, nor if his writings were fictional or not.

Considering the fact that most every culture has an "Atlantis" story, this is the reason why people gave, and still do, give credit to Plato's writings as a possible factual place.

I do believe that Plato is completely accurate in his descriptions and calculations based upon his reputation as a great scholar & mathematician. I doubt very seriously whether he would deliberately have jeopardized his reputation by committing such blatant & erroneous errors.

Why? Because he states the time period, not once, but in 3 different areas within his writings.

It really has nothing to do with believing everything verbatim. It has to do with his unembellished writings, his reputation in both writing and mathematics, and the factual accounts of most cultures having the same stories which lend credence to his writings of Atlantis.

No one has proved that he was wrong or writing fiction, yet. Neither has anyone proved that Atlantis was real. However, his writings combined with the world stories has led to the belief that Plato's writings, were, indeed, a story of an ancient time far distant to be written down, and only remembered through myth and legend.

Once one digs through all of the myth and legend, the story of Atlantis takes on all the reality of any other legendary place that was once lost but now found (such as Troy).

This is what keeps us, who believe in Atlantis, continuing the search.

------------------
"Love your enemies ! It drives 'em nuts !!" Anonymus

If you have any questions or complaints or even just want to chat, e-mail me @ the following: (Just make sure you put "AR" in the subject line) as well as your user name on AR. Otherwise, it will be deleted. Thank you. Kim

Smiley4554@hotmail.com

"The "Serpent Woman" (with two serpents and both breasts bare) may symbolize the common origin of these two cultures - underlining a simple historic fact of brotherhood. Since the King, his sons, grandsons and grand-grandsons were to become the procreators off all future subjects in the kingdom. (Thus all became related; genetically, culturally, socially and existentially.)

Creating their respective populations they expanded their culture to reach all corners of the Mediterranean area - as well as its many neighbours."

Boreas refers to the symbolism of dual reign on Crete reaching out to all of the Mediterranean....The two exposed breasts being the succor and support of two king-lines and the two snakes being the representation of two sperm-lines, east and west. The Bock saga tells of Mediterranean Crete being the home/origin of the two royal lines that went on to rule east-Greece and west-Rome, both stemming from the legitamate King-sperm (All-father)line which originated in the far north.

RE:"It's only fairly recently that the idea of a male god as the head of the pantheon came into being."

Gwen: This is so, but ORIGINALLY there were no gods or goddesses, but the reverence of nature- not personified. The very idea of personified goddess/god came much later. What we call goddess worship today was not that at the time. The very term "Lady" and it's common usage, may seem to stem from Britain, long regarded as the birth place of Leto, mother of Apollo and Artemis. Not gods, but real people. "Lady" actually comes from the ROT (root) language still existant as Finnish, and pre-dates humans living on the British Isles.

Herodotus mentions that Pan was one of the eight "gods" BEFORE twelve gods.

Remember, Eight Powers of Nature predates Gods/Goddesses. These were Odin (Uudenmaa-a place) Thor, Frey and Freia, Hel, Bock, i, and Ra. These at first appear to be the names of gods, but they are not. They are literal forces of nature. Pan is symbolic of the All-father and is the equivalent of Frey- the first and original Alfather, as is Freia the proto-type of all mother and earth-mother personifications to come later.

"And twelve gods were formed some 17.000 years before the pharaoh ”Amasis” of Egypt ruled."

Smiley,

We do have more to go by today. How can you state that Plato was accurate when he merely parrots what he heard. Or do you mean that he accurately re-told what he heard? This does not make what he said into fact, does it? Plenty of "great scholars and mathematitions" have eaten their own words later.

Nevertheless, you are so right: "No one has proved that he was wrong or writing fiction, yet. Neither has anyone proved that Atlantis was real. However, his writings combined with the world stories has led to the belief that Plato's writings, were, indeed, a story of an ancient time far distant to be written down, and only remembered through myth and legend."

But I for one am not a believer theat what Schliemann uncovered was Troy but that the existance of both "Atlantis" and "Troy" has been finally shown in the last decade to be in the far north.

Boreas just put this on the Bulgaria thread responding to the previous. It seems to be pertinent to your discussion:

"Fitting very well with the (Bock)saga stating that the Eastern Minoean culture, also named "Hellenic" - governed the entire Black Sea.
First from Crete, starting some 9.000 years ago. After the Mycenaeans rebelled, starting a warfare on Crete itself, - the island was ransacked, splitting the Hellenic double-headed kingdom; Eastern and Western Crete, running in two parallel kinglines of Jupiter and Zeus, into the Roman and the Greek culture.

The Jupiter-family founded Rome, and its seven hills, built on the tradition from their original "Trojia" - placing one temple on each hill, as well as Bacchus Temple and Jupiter's Palace in the middle. Thus the Romulus-line was established, reigning peacefully for many generations.

Unfortunatly the war spread from the eastern Ocean westwards - and some 300 years later Rome itself became ransacked and occupied. Soon its legal rulers, the Jupiter/Romulus-line - became overthrown, prosecuted and extincted. By brute tyrants, later known as tyrant-kings.

Over the last months I have seen archaeological reports of artifacts showing a close parallel between the first Romans and the simultanious Etruscan culture. They definitly seem to be ONE and the same. Eventually until intruders/vigilantes (Mycenaeans?!) managed to conquer their capitol, but still leave "rural" Etruscan areas (north of Rubicon) in peace. Until Caesar threw his dice - starting the "hunt".

The Zeus-family moved inside the Bosporus, establishing the first Minoan Greek Culture on the main-land. Founding Hagia Sofia and their new capitol; Istanbul.
Later the Persian/Turkish culture expanded, finally reaching the Bosporus. Conquering the capitol of the royal house of the double-headed eagle, - as well as the key to the ports of the Black Ocean. Thus the original Greek population had to move its capitol city westwards, replacing Hagia Sofia to the "lesser" Sofia, today the capitol of Bulgaria."

Here is a link which explains the 8 forces of nature that constituted the "eight", or Ogdoad, of early (Egyptian) commentaries. I want to call special attention to the issue that none of these "8 abstact concepts" was a Scandinavian deity. All 8 members of the Ogdoad are considered to be amphibians. Four of them are frog-men and the other 4 are snake-women.

This is the source material from which Herodotus drew his (improbable) suggestion that a Greek goat-man (Pan) was a member of the Ogdoad.

quote from: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/o/ogdoad.html
The name of eight Egyptian deities who were especially worshipped in Hermopolis in Upper Egypt. They form the basis of the creation myth. The Ogdoad consist of four gods and four goddesses who together personify the essence of the primordial chaos before the creation of the world. They are Nun and Naunet (the primordial water), Huh and Hauhet (infinite space), Kuk and Kauket (darkness), and Amun and Amaunet (representing hidden powers).

Thus we had Hel-Balder-I-Oden-Ra-Tor-Frei-Freia, where Frei and Freia were the two first human beings.
The representation of these original powers were then carried by the basic figures of the first Pan-te-(ode)on; Gubben & Gumman, Balder & Swan, Ra & Maj, Frei & Freia, where the last one represent "all men" and "all women". In fenno-ugrian the names of the human "proto-family" - the Aser - were; Okko & Akka, Seppo & Maja, Leminkainen & Joutsen, Sampo and Aino.

The royal families of Sven (the first Swede), Dan (the first Dane), Zeus and Jupiter (and others) are all descendants from the family of the Aser.

Another paralell is the frog-figure. In the Saga of The Ring its claimed that the significant steps in the evolutionary process went from algea to eel, via frogs and monkeys to men. Note that only two species have the ability to breast-SWIM like the frog, namely monkeys and men.

The Snake Goddesses were created during the Middle Minoan period, probably around 1700 BC., and no has yet actually figured out just what she signifies. There is no proof that the statuette depicts an actual goddess. While most people might assume that, some have suggested that she was simply a snake charmer or snake handler, while others say she was a priestess. With no literature to support that the she was indeed a goddess, we can only guess who she may be.

The Dorians and other Hellenic-speaking tribes brought with them their own pantheon of deities when they invaded in 1400. As far as Greek mythology is concerned, the Snake Goddess did not long survive into Greek literature and myth.

On the Linear B tablets in Knossos, Crete, the names of these mistresses:
Mistresses:

PO-TI-NI-JA Potnia "Mistress" or "Lady"
A-TA-NA PO-TI-NI-JA Atana Potnia
DA-PU-RI-TO-JO PO-TI-NI-JA "Lady of the Labyrinth"
A-SI-WI-JA Aswia Potnia Aswia

Below, are the following Potnias, found in the Linear B tablets in
Pylos:

The eight powers certainly have been depicted far and wide accross the planet, including the female power. Physical evidence of female forms does not convey "goddess" automatically. All the eight powers had immense significance, and their permanent place in the cultures of 30,000 years ago and farther back than that is obvious. The female portion of a community of course made use of the images of natural powers related to female doings, as did the males of a community.

You mention Dorians, who's Mediterranean stone architecture so strongly echoes buildings (temples) made of wood in the far north, and Hellenes, who's very name states where they came from: Hel-the place and one of the eight powers, Hel-As: from the Aser.

This pairing of deities can correlate to a few of the most significant Hellenistic myths, the ones about Medusa (the snake goddess from Libya) and Poseidon.

According to those Medusa myths, Poseidon led Medusa (=a snake goddess, resembling Potnia) to proto-Athens, where he tried to seduce Medusa in the temple of Athena.

Originally Athena (=Potnia Atana ??) had been a daughter of Poseidon; but she revolted against Poseidon and chose Zeus as her foster father.

Herodotus claimed that the god Poseidon originated in Libya. An origin in that general area would support the theme of the Eleusinian war, in which Eumolpus 1 (a son of Poseidon) leaves Libya/Ethiopia and gives aid to Eleusis in a war against proto-Athens. (Carlos Parada points out there are alternate versions of the Eleusinian war which are "entangled" and contradictory.)
http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Eleusis.html

Furthermore, it seems fair to point out that Potnia Equeia/Hippeia (Mistress of Horses) is a clone of the name of the First Lady of Atlantis, whom Solon and Plato report using the name Leucippe.

At roughly the same era when Poseidon brings Medusa/Potnia to Crete and Athens, there is a mythical migration of evil metal-working wizards, called the Telchines, from Crete to Cyprus and Rhodes, where they are the first people to smelt "suphide" ores of copper.

Now with the above Greek mythical stories in mind, I want to introduce a link about the background of the snake "goddesses" in Crete, and especially their connections to ancient Egypt.

quote from: http://witcombe.sbc.edu/snakegoddess/snakesegypt.html
8. Snakes, Egypt, Magic & Women

Following his discussion of the snake as a household deity, Evans comments on the similarity in the position of the snake raising its head above the hat of the principal "Snake Goddess" (Evans here ignoring the fact that this particular detail of the figurine is his own reconstruction - see Evans's "Snake Goddess") and that of the Egyptian uraeus (rearing cobra snake) on the head of Hathor and other Egyptian goddesses. In particular, Evans tentatively links the "Snake Goddess" with the Egyptian Goddess Wazet (i.e. Wadjyt), the snake goddess of the Nile Delta, but does not pursue the connection.

It is clear that the Minoans borrowed much their culture and various cult practices from Egypt. Numerous Egyptian objects of one kind or another were found by Evans at Knossos. The most spectacular discovery was the lower part of diorite statue of a seated Egyptian figure identified from the hieroglyphic inscriptions as a priest of Wadjyt (or Wadjet; written as Wazet by Evans; and as Uatchet, or Uatchit, by Budge [see Budge in the BIBLIOGRAPHY]).

As was noted above, sacred to Wadjyt was the cobra snake which in the form of the uraeus became the distinctive emblem of the Kingdom of Lower Egypt and the Egyptian royal house. Wadjyt was principally the snake goddess of Buto, or Pe, her ancient sanctuary in the Nile Delta. She was also associated with the city known to the Greeks as Aphroditopolis (the city of Aphrodite; the signs of the nome of Aphroditopolis were a snake and a feather), with whom Wadjyt was identified. Like Aphrodite, Wadjyt was a goddess of fertility. Later, she was assimilated with Isis.

In her snake form, Wadjyt is sometimes identified as Weret-hekau, "Great of Magic", who, as the uraeus, a manifestation of the solar eye, rises from the forehead of Horus (the pharaoh). As the uraeus, Wadjyt and Weret-hekau were identified with the eye of Re. The Goddesses Tefnut and Bastet were also identified with the eye of Re. As both were commonly shown lioness-headed, so Wadjyt and Weret-hekau were also sometimes represented with lioness-heads. This has sometimes caused all these goddesses to be identified with the lioness goddess Sekhmet.

Originally simply an epithet applied to goddesses, crowns, and uraeus, Weret-hekau was also a goddess in her own right. Her principal tasks were to protect the creator sun god and to act as foster-mother to the pharaohs. Weret-hekau's name, together with snake decoration and solar eyes, occasionally appears on magical implements such as model throwsticks (used by the deceased to defend themselves against malevolent spirits and demons), and apotropaic wands (or 'magic knives') made of ivory which seem to have been used to protect women, especially pregnant or nursing women, and women with children. Among the papyri found in a cache of magical objects in a tomb under the Ramesseum (see below) is one devoted to spells for women and children.

Magic was a beneficial force in Egypt and was used widely in all periods. The earliest attested magical texts are in the Pyramid Texts composed late in Dynasty V and Dynasty VI in the Old Kingdom. The god of magic, Heka (heka is also the Egyptian word for 'magic'), to whom shrines were dedicated in Lower Egypt, was depicted in human form (sometimes with a snake head) holding a snake-shaped wand in each hand. The snake wand, which was also used by magicians, probably represented Weret-hekau.

Wooden statuette of a woman holding metal snakes
Dynasty XIII (1786-1633 BCE)
(The Manchester Museum, University of Manchester, England)
The combination of snake wands and the lioness head is seen in a wooden statuette of woman with movable arms found in 1896 by James Edward Quibell in a cache of magical objects in a tomb dating to Dynasty XIII (1786-1633 BCE) discovered under the Ramesseum, the mortuary temple of Ramesses II (1290-1224 BCE), at Thebes. The statuette, which holds a metal snake-wand in each hand, is thought to represent a female sau, a type of magician, who could supply magical protection (the Egyptian verb sa means "to protect") both by making charms and amulets, and by using spoken and written charms.

Besides the statuette, the cache also included some magico-medical papyri and a twisting bronze snake wand (now in the Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge) which was evidently intended to be held in the middle where its body flattens out. It is approximately twice the size of those held by the wooden figurine. Possibly the Minoan votary is also holding snake-wands.

The sau statuette is usually described as representing either the beneficent lion-demon later known as Bes (a god often called upon to protect women in childbirth and their infants), or a woman playing the role of the demon in a magical rite. However, the combination of lioness mask and snakes also suggests that she might be representing or serving in some way, perhaps as a votary or a priestess, the goddess Wadjyt. Her nudity may indicate a connection with fertility figurines (a group of which were found in the same cache), or that she is a religious dancer who helped in the protective rites.

An interesting feature of the Egyptian statuette is its moveable arms which could be raised so that the metal snakes in each hand are held up in a manner reminiscent of the Minoan Snake Goddess.

endquote

note: Dynasty 13, when Potnia-type figurines begin to appear in Egypt, occured when the Middle Kingdom of Egypt was disintegrating and served as a bridge to Egypt's Second Intermediate Period. http://www.nemo.nu/ibisportal/0egyptintro/5egypt/5bildsidor/dynasties.htm

You asked about etymology for the words Potnia and Atana. Here is a link which tries to explain the names, based on Indo-European word roots. As you can see, both Denmark and the Danaans of Irish myths are traced back to Athena.

quote from: http://www.danaanpress.com/questans.htm

Athena is the name used most in the writings of Athenadorus because it is the oldest name of the Goddess known from Western sources. It appears in the Linear B tablets from Crete: atana potniya. Some hold that its appearance in those tablets means the 'Lady [i.e., female Lord] of Athens'. But because this interpretation does not make sense morphologically[7], and because the same deity was worshipped at the same time in cities other than Athens (and there is no corroborating evidence showing that 'atana' means 'Athens' in this phrase), it is far more likely that the name means '(the) Immortal Lady'. {'potniya' is cognate with the Latin potis: able, capable, powerful; and the related verb potior: become master of. 'atana' is the word that appears in later Greek as aJanatoV, meaning deathless, immortal.}
The myth most widely known of the birth of Athena is a remnant of the period in which the communities that had been centers of Goddess-devotion were infiltrated by warriors that weaseled (or forced) the veneration of their male deities into the original religion of those communities. Of all the forms and names by which the Goddess was worshipped, only Athena survived untouched. She alone was so powerful that She remained as the Great Goddess had been: without a father, without a husband, without a son. The only attempt at subversion was the creation of the absurd myth of Her springing, full-grown from the split-open skull of Zeus
.......
"Danann, the Tuatha dè Danann, did you get Danann [sic] from that? I saw that you worship Athena, yet you call yourself Danann? Athena is Greek, and Dana, the mother of the Tuatha dè Danann is Celtic."
Your question about the Tuatha dè Danann is right on the money. The name "Athena" is one of the oldest names of the Goddess that we have record of. It appears in the linear Greek texts from Crete as "atana potnia". Some scholars have taken its meaning in those to be "Lady [ie, female master] of Athens", but because the name is associated with other cities, it is more likely that She gave her name to Athens, not the other way around. [See above (#3)]
Names cognate with "Athena" appear not only in the Greek-speaking areas, but in almost all areas of the ancient Mediterranean world. In Palestine this same Goddess appears with the names Anatha, Anat, Athanah and Dinah. From Asia Minor she enters the Roman world as Diana. And in the Greek-speaking communities She appears again as Danae, the mother of the Danaans.
In northern Europe the name appears again in "Denmark", the "mark" (i.e., border) of Danu['s realm]. And of course it appears in the Tuatha dè Danann.
The phoneme under consideration would then be {a}[d/th]{a/e}n{a/e} (or with the consonants ([d/th] and n) metathesized [like how the Anglo-Saxon 'brid' became the modern English 'bird']). All of these disparate yet related occurrences point to some form of this phoneme having been Her original name, and, because "Athena" is the earliest attested, it is the one we usually use.
endquote

Among Semitic speaking peoples, the name of Athena changed into Anath. According to Young's concordance of the Bible, the words Anath and Anathoth both appear in the Hebrew Old Testament, and they mean "answer(s)". Thus Anath was probably an "oracle", or answer-giving goddess. A similar activity is known in ancient Greece from before the arrival of Zeus and his Olympian companions. The oracle at Delphi was originally operated by a group of priestesses who were collectively called "the Pythoness". The god Apollo is known for two relevant details here. Apollo was the first of the so-called Junior Olympians to be born. And he went to Delphi, where he subjugated the Pythoness. http://www.bartleby.com/61/24/P0692400.html

In my estimation, the Delphi priestesses who were collectively called the Pythoness should be linked to one of the serpent-ladies of Crete, who were all genericly named Potnia.

I was sincere in my use of the word "respect" in terms of both your researches and Boreas. I also believe that intelligent people can also respectfully disagree, correct? I agree that civilization might well have come from the north (although historians also suggest an eastern origin for groups like the Phoenicians), and I also give great weight to the oral tradition.

We do have statues of fertility goddesses dating back to 30,000 b.c. If these statues are not meant for fertility, what else could they be for? Worship of the goddess has been around as long as humanity has emerged from the caves. It is the one constant in civilization, up until around the year 1400 b.c. We shouldn't be denying the existence of feminine power, we should be making a better effort to understand it.

Atalante,

Here are Largest Eruptions in the Last 10,000 Years, with a VEI Greater Than or Equal to 5.

Vesuvius Italy 5960 BC 5
Vesuvius Italy 3580 BC 5
Vesuvius Italy 79 6
Etna Italy 1500 BC 5
Santorini Greece 1650 BC 6

You brought up the possibility of the letters B and P interchanging in various languages (and perhaps also the letter L becoming silent).

These are good possibilities, in general. "Grimm's Law" of consonant shifts recommends both of those types of shifts.

Botnia is a city in Finland. Perhaps it has significance in the Bock Saga.

But if Denmark means "the margin (or end) of Dana's territory" (which was recommended in the website I offered for explaining an etymology of the name Athena), then perhaps any place north and/or east of Denmark was "outside the influence of Dana/Athena".

The letter L can sometimes become silent in transliterations. You suggested "helen(a)" might have been simplified to "hen" in the word Athena.

But I can suggest, alternately, that the focus for identifying Atana Potnia might be a shift involving "silent R". Athena Parthenos is my candidate for Atana Potnia. Athena's temple in Athens was officially named the Parthenon.

Fertility, of both women and men was central to the culture of the Aser, and was the focus of most of their ritual life, but this was observed as NATURAL POWER, and not personified as gods and godesses.

Fertility symbols in the shape of a woman does not signify that the symbol means a goddess. It is merely a focus of intent. You asked "If these statues are not meant for fertility, what else could they be for?" They ARE certainly meant for fertility focus. We are misled to assume further than that.

I am not at all denying the existance of feminine power, and feminine power was one, but just one of the eight powers. At the time of the Eight Powers, before being twisted into "gods and godesses", enormous female power and enormous male power existed in PaRaDis-time with out conflict. Finding the tokens of these beliefs, such as the female figures, may mislead modern observers to think that this was a singular belief, exclusive of all other thought. This may not be the case.