"Plato recorded and embellished the story from Solon's grandson Critias the younger, translating the land of the pillars which held the sky (Keftiu) into the land of the titan Atlas. Keftiu-Atlantis was Egypt's gateway to the "western" lands (Greece, Libya, and beyond), and was the home of a civilization that held dominion over the surronding lands. But Plato mistook the location of Atlantis: Atlantis was not west of the Mediterranean, but was merely west of Egypt. Yet Plato preserved enough detail about the land of Atlantis that its identification is now unmistakeable. Plato never realized that the land of Atlantis was already familiar to him: Atlantis was the land of the Minoan culture, namely ancient Crete. The Minoan culture spread its dominion throughout the nearby islands of the Aegean, more than 1500 years BC.

Crete, now part of Greece, was the capital for the Minoan people — an advanced civilization with language, commercial shipping, complex architecture, ritual and games. The Minoans were peaceful: very little evidence of military activity was found in their ruins. Daedalus, the ancient scientist, was the architect of the 4-storied palace at Knossos, said to be the capitol of the Minoan culture. At Knossos one can still find the ruins of the labyrinth that housed the legendary Minotaur, slewn by Thesius. Minoan culture extended across the island of Crete, with most of its developments along the northern coast of Crete. But after 800 years of dominance, the Minoan culture came to an abrupt end, circa 1470 BC.

Correspondence of Minoan cultural artifacts with aspects of the Atlantis legend make the identity of the two seem virtually certain. Perhaps the most unusual of these is the Minoan bullfighting. By legend, the inhabitants of Keftiu would engage in ritualistic bullfighting, with unarmed Minoan bullfighters wrestling and jumping over uninjured bulls. This foolhardy practice is richly illustrated in remaining Minoan artwork. Legend also holds that Atlantis was peaceful — this is confirmed by a virtually complete absence of weapons in Minoan ruins and in Minoan artwork — unusual for peoples of that time. Egyptian legend held that elephants were found on Keftiu — while there were presumably no elephants on Crete, the Minoans were known to deal in ivory, and appear to have been the principal access to ivory for Egypt 20 centuries before Christ."

Some Minoan theorists just go too far:
You've been warned! http://www.fjkluth.com/minoan.html

I agree with your post, Rockessence. Equally, I also have always thought that when Plato refers to the word "elephant," he could just as easily have meant the Ice Age Mastodon of Woolly Mammoth, and, of course we do know that those were found in abundance in the north. Ice Age mammoths were still to be found, flash frozen in some instances, and the Greeks would not know how else to describe them.

As for your second link, I laughed so hard that I couldn't finish the article. Very imaginative (not to mention very weird). Thank you for the advanced warning.

As for the first one, well, I have come across that article myself in my own researches, and it is so clearly flawed that I don't know where to begin. I do think it's interesting that the famous labyrinth on Crete, the one thing that, for the Greeks anyway that gave Crete it's greatest claim to fame, never manages to find it's way in Critias. Surely such a fabulous creation would have been added amidst all the other wealth of detail if Plato meant to write about Crete. That alone should tell us he was writing about a different thing or place.

Of course, Crete was a peaceful, artistic society having little to do with the 1200 warships that Atlantis set out from the Atlantic Ocean! Then, too, for what reason would Atlantis even have to invade the Mediterranean if it's people were already living there?

Incidentally, while most scholars agree that Keifu was Crete, that opinion may not be true. And forget the reference to the Pillars of Hercules alone, the story clearly states that "this power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean..."

Much sloppy research in this one, too many flawed points to point them all out now! You must chastise this author for presenting such poor material without bothering to check his facts!

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Then, too, for what reason would Atlantis even have to invade the Mediterranean if it's people were already living there?

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Which makes one wonder - wheter the rapid "improvement" of the climate in the north - where the midle-temperature rose drastically as the ice-sheet suddenly slided into the oceans (10.000 - 10.700 "carbon-years" ago, making the oceans rise 120-160 metres...).

By the sudden warming some of the most specialized species - or the "best adapted" of the artical mammals, - have got the biggest problems when the climate started changing,- back to a more "normal" climate - for living creatures on this planet. Must it not be a paradox of some kind, - that the biggest (and "most" adapted) of all the artic mammals, the mammoths, - got existencial problems as ice-time ended, and the Eurasian climate again started to become pleasant, nice and healthy?!

One may wonder if these mammoths (both the bigger and the smaller types) have been part of the Atlantis culture, just as the indian and thai elephants of today. In that case it could be a relevance btween Plato`s 2.500 year old book - and the historical reality of the north Atlantis, - emerging out of the northern ice-sheet (followed by the big flood of the great ice-slide, with some 10.700-10.000 years ago).

I guess these dates are somehow paralell to the terrestial changes mentioned by the same Plato...

People keep speculating that Santorini, since it happened fairly close to the classical age, had to be the eruption. Yet, there were other eruptions, in even more distant times that were even more powerful that might have also been the basis for the Atlantis story. I shall try and look for a list for you.

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I think it is rather biased to call the Minoan-Atlantis position poor scholarship. What you are implying by this is that mainstream scholarship is poor. From what I've been reading, almost all Geologists and Classics scholars who venture into the disussion of Atlantis agree that the Minaon theory is most credible. I've seen sites that suggest that the Volcanic eruption at Santorini (a class 6 of a possible 8) created a tsunami with wave heights of 40 metres (the height of a 12 story building) along with thick ash deposits that burried cities. These Geologists suggest a connection with the Atlantis myth. In addition Classics scholars who have read Plato in the original Greek text and who have immersed their lives in the study of Mediterranean history and culture suggest that Minoan Theory is right.

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On the one hand, we have the geologists, most of who probably have very little interest in Plato, making judgments about a disaster that they admittedly still know very little about. Then, on the other hand, we have classics professors, most of whom believe that everything Plato has written should be taken as allegory, arriving at the topic with already preconceived notions about Atlantis.

I say that there is no doubt that the Santorini disaster was terrible, and it is right to speculate on how destructive it was. Yet, for all it's bluster, very few bodies have ever been recovered at Santorini which should tell us that the people had some advanced warning and most likely got out well before the disaster even occurred. As I pointed out earlier, Minoan civilization continued to go on for years afterwards, this did not destroy it, and, also none of the other details seem to fit.

I think it is interesting that even Marinatos' (discoverer of Santorini) own daughter doesn't believe that Thera/Crete has anything to do with the Atlantis story.

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On the contrary, I would say that the vast majority of amateur investigation into Atlantis is not only very poor scholarship but is also based on a methodology that is bound to be fruitless.So to call this theory "poor scholarship" is a little absurd.

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And now, it is you being biased. Have you checked into all the various Atlantis theories on record, and, if not, why lump them altogether? Some of the Atlantis theories put forth are by very respected scientists who theorize, in great detail, some very credible theories. Otto Muck is one, Nicolai Zhirhov is another. Likewise Jacques Collina-Girard. Some of the investigators in this very forum have also done some very good work - Robert Sarmast, Dr. Rainer Kuhne, Riven, Atalante, Georgeos, Dhill, Sangmele, Ulf, Rajeesh, Helios - the list goes on. I can only hope to someday reach their level of accomplishment. Very little "channeling" being done here, and most of them seem to know a great deal about ancient history, eptimology and the sciences.

"Fruitless" would best be defined by limiting the search to what little we know of ancient history and then trying to fit a preconceived scenario within that time frame that is both ill-fitting and flawed. If humans have been in their present state for at least one hundred thousand years, why is it that we have only made progress during the last five? How many other ancient civilizations rose and fell in that time frame that we do not, nor will we ever know about?

Doesn't it bother you that we have only a fraction of the story of human history in that time? If man discovered fire one hundred thousand years ago, why did it take him another one hundred thousand years to invent airplanes, rocket fuel, the atomic bomb? It's not a very scientific thing to say, I know, but I do believe we are a species with a collective amnesia.

Regarding the ash-fall from Santorini. I saw a map of the plumes in the NY Times which showed the perimeter of two ovals which reached into Asia Minor and SE across the top of Egypt and onward from there. One can clearly see that just on the exact edge are, guess what? Delos in the north and Siwa Oasis in the south. Interesting that these locations suddenly flower as religious centers, for Apollo (the sun) in Delos and Zeus(the All-father/Breeder) in Siwa.

I believe, as you do, that "Minoan civilization continued for years afterwards, the eruption did not destroy it." The question always remains: who survived, and who did not. Certainly if Siwa and Delos emerged after the ash-fall as the new centers, then the main survivors were bent on keeping solid their spiritual strength.

There is, in the Bock saga material, from Ior Bock by Leo Nygren- the arrival on Delos of the Hyperborean maidens, Arge and Opis, as the Priestesses of Apollo...sent from the far north to carry on the tradition of two even earlier Priestesses... www.bocksaga.de

I believe that the Atlantis of Plato, of the Egyptian stelae was a version twisted by thousands of years passing. The volcano/inundation theme may certainly have been a known idea.

I must add, I believe that "Minoan" is a misnomer, and that Minos was a person or a position in the original, northern Crete which was Pomeranian area of north Germany. The name Minos came south during the earliest migrations south to the "Middle" sea.

In terms of the destructive effects of the whole Thera incident...Knossos is well above 40 meters, but if there were a tsunami, there would have been NO BOATS with which to leave after the incident. The chances are that ash-fall was the factor which drove the migration, with or without destructive earthquakes.

But the "collective amnesia" was not self-inflicted....
It was an enormously expensive campaign which began at the earliest times of the Roman church clear through to the present. See the Boreas thread....

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The weakness of the fundamentalist interpretation of Atlantis is based largely on ignorance and an unwillingness to consider information that is readily available to all! In this discussion I am using the word fundamentalist to refer to proponents of theories on Atlantis who hold that Plato's account is accurate.
Let's consider the 9500 B.C. figure that is much touted as the year Atlantis sank. I think this figure is arbitrary and misleading. The year 9500 B.C. is clearly prior to times when there were written records of life on this planet. Therefore any information from this era must have been handed down by an oral tradition. Assuming 33 year generations (for sake of argument) and 9000 years time, then this story must have been passed down through the oral tradition for approximately 200 generations before writing came about and thereafter for another 100 generations till the time of Plato.

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Gwen has agreed that it would be hard to maintain this story over this period of time yet she chooses to do so anyways! In fact most of the researchers who follow a literal interpretation of Plato do not seem to be aware of this simple fact know to antropologists and historians.

You can not maintain an accurate oral history over 200 generations

So you can forget about Plato's story being accurate. It is not--accept it Then you can start real research.

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( I believe that Solon who is believed to be in the chain of story transfer, lived about 5 or 6 generations before Plato and the two men may have been related) Given the chain of humans and length of time over which the story was allegedly handed down I believe there was ample occasion for details to have been changed. This includes years, locations and facts. For this reason I do not take Plato's account on face value.

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If we examine the story objectively, the first thing to throw out is the year 9500 B.C. and the second thing to go is probably the Atlantic location. Phrases such as "beyond the pillars of Hercules" can also mean "once upon a time" or "in an unknown land." They serve to indicate that Plato did not know where his Atlantis was located. Other statements on the sinking of the "continent" are also suspect.

Putting together the remainder of Plato's information and using research in classical studies and geology we can come up with a few more probable scenarios. Personally I think the Minoan one of about 1600 B.C. make most sense.

Given that Plato's account is most definitely wrong, it is pointless to quote him to try and debunk the Minoan Theory. Its not the theory that is wrong, it is Plato.

[This message has been edited by jshsitar (edited 01-14-2005).]

[This message has been edited by jshsitar (edited 01-14-2005).]

"You can not maintain an accurate oral history over 200 generations"

You are exactly right and exactly wrong...

Relative to what Plato and the Egyptian stelae report, exactly correct.

But, in the case of the family sagas, the Bock family saga, SA(to receive)GA(to give)the teller of the saga learns the saga every day from age seven to age twenty-seven. Twenty years of absorbing the Rot(root) language, the KELA of sound, which forms the brain into an instrument of logic and truth. Each generation trains the next saga teller.

In this manner the true record of mankind was brought forward through millions of generations, up through the first Ragnarok (world-wide)up through Ice-time, up through 1050AD (in the far north only)up through present time in one family only. At the time of the first Ragnarok (declination of the planet)the separation happened of the Arcticals from the Tropicals, and that is when the saga turned from family record to tales of gods, and there lies the problem.

I see that we have partial agreement on the 200 generations of oral history being inaccuate. I would like to add that over this period of time, and in the ensuing 100 generations in which there was some form of written record, the story of Atlantis would have had to have been translated at least twice. Atlantian/Greek to Egyptian and back to a more Classical Greek. Much of the debate on the Pillars of Hercules deals with an Egyptian perspective vs a Greek one. From the Egytian point of view, Crete could have been beyond the pillars that they were refering to and the Greeks mistranslated this into the Pillars of Hercules. This means that they and other Atlantis seekers were looking west from Greece when they should have been looking west from Egypt and SE from Greece.

Regarding the Baltic/Saga point of view, it is possible that some Northern European SAGA material made its way into Homer and other Myths. However, I think that the historical facts around Santorini and Minoan History are the source of the Atlantis legend. The locations I am referring to are the ones to the SE of Greece. Likewise, the Santorini volcano/tsunami undoubtedly swamped parts of Crete and Mainland Greece. It would have also affected the entire Mediterranean basin. As I said earlier, I prefer to deal with historical facts and then see how much of Plato's account is accurate, not vice versa.

In addition you might be interested to know that there are still people in India who can recite the entire Ramayana. My singing teacher's wife was trained to do this. It the tradition of Sanskrit recitation there is a similar emphasis on correct pronunciation and understanding of the meaning.

"What I've been saying about theories on Atlantis is that some of them are possible and probable, some are possible and improbable and some are a waste of time.

I think that the Minoan theory is a viable one. It has the support of some serious researchers. It can be seen in the light of Plato's statements. Personally I think it is incorrect to run with an interpretation of Plato without knowing what he really knew as opposed to what he gathered. For example Plato's says Atlantis sunk. Could this rule out the volcano/tsunami that destroyed Minoan civilization? I do not think so. If we factor in the info from Krakatoa in 1883, we see that a one hundred foot wall of water traveling at 50 MPH killed 36,000 people and also did much property damage. Seismologists say that the Thera eruption was about 4 times as strong. So this was no minor event. ***** makes it seem that this type of event happened a lot in the Mediterranean. To the ancient world the eruption of Thera was a MAJOR catastrophe. A complete civilization was wiped out in an instant. As such, it could form the basis for the Atlantis legend. To simply say, no it isn't, is ridiculous.

I put the Minoan theory in the category of possible and probable. ****** is quibbling over the fact that parts of Thera didn't sink and are still around. Plato never went to see the remnants of Atlantis so he didn't know if what, if anything, was left of it."

I know that there was apparently some advanced warning at Santorini and this enabled most of the inhabitants to leave. However this does not mean that they survived! Furthermore this event did have an effect on Crete and the surrounding area and was a contributing factor to the eventual demise of Minoan Civilisation.

In regards to the oral tradition passing down the memory of Atlantis, I did admit that it would hard for the story to be passed down by oral tradition alone. I think I also did mention that the story was not passed down simply through oral tradition. It was written on hierogylphic in the Egyptian temples (the Temple of Neith, for one). I am one who holds that Egyptian civilization is older than frequently given credit for, and the Egyptians themselves date it to far older than Egyptologists do. All the monuments of Egypt, the pyramids, the Sphinx, the great statues, can't accurately be dated anyway since they are all made of stone. And we all know you can't carbon 14 date a block of stone.

By the way, I would also wish to amend my list of researchers include Rockessence and Boreas, both of whm know more about Baltic history than most will ever know.

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If we examine the story objectively, the first thing to throw out is the year 9500 B.C. and the second thing to go is probably the Atlantic location. Phrases such as "beyond the pillars of Hercules" can also mean "once upon a time" or "in an unknown land." They serve to indicate that Plato did not know where his Atlantis was located. Other statements on the sinking of the "continent" are also suspect.

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Jshsitar, what a remarkable leap of logic you include here. Because "beyond the Pillars of Hercules" specifically puts the land in a location other than Crete, you dismiss it altogether? That phrase is awfully inconvenient for Minoan theorists, isn't it? As referenced earlier, Plato was a far better student of math than given credit for, also that the Egyptian symbol for '100' looks nothing like the symbol for '1000.' Hence, there could be no dispute as to the era Atlantis is place in. The Greeks also knew from the Phoenicians about the ocean around the Pillars of Hercules, therefore, there is also no disputing the location.

Plato did know where Atlantis was located, beyond the Pillars. Believe it or not, but don't say that he was confused as to it's location, it's right there in the writing. That is a red herring thrown out by you one based entirely on opinion.

He never uses the word 'continent,' not once in the description, 'island' is more fitting. We get the idea of a continent from other researchers and some psychics, Plato does not mention it. So you're right, in a way, it would be 'suspect,' had it been used, but it wasn't even used in the first place.

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Putting together the remainder of Plato's information and using research in classical studies and geology we can come up with a few more probable scenarios. Personally I think the Minoan one of about 1600 B.C. make most sense.

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And, as I said there were many other disasters in the ancient world, some even more disastrous. You are entitled to your opinion, though.

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Given that Plato's account is most definitely wrong, it is pointless to quote him to try and debunk the Minoan Theory. Its not the theory that is wrong, it is Plato.

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My, what a self-serving and totally baseless statement![i] Because Minoan theory does not, in any shape or form, fit Crete, let's blame Plato. Using that sort of illogic, the one that doesn't care for facts, any of us cold claim a hollow victory in any argument. [i]It's not Plato who is at fault here, it's those who insist on making this baseless comparison, without any regard to history, geography, ancient writings, even mythology. Which to me, raises this question: who originally came up with this ill-fitting comparison in the first place? Was it Arthur Evans? I believe so.

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To the ancient world the eruption of Thera was a MAJOR catastrophe. A complete civilization was wiped out in an instant. As such, it could form the basis for the Atlantis legend. To simply say, no it isn't, is ridiculous.

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Jshsitar,it is ridiculous to say that Santorini wiped out the whole civilization, when we have ancient accounts of the Cretans operating well after that. Also, we've never even found any bodies at the site of Santorini. I'm sure you've seen the pictures of all the dead at Pompeii, things like mothers clutching their babies...why are there no pictures like that? I rest my case.

Equally, nothng precious has ever been found at Santorini, only pottery My guess is that the ancients had advanced warning there and had ample time to pack up most of their things and move.

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Plato never went to see the remnants of Atlantis so he didn't know if what, if anything, was left of it."

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And yet, we do seem to agree that Plato visited Crete, and I would also suggest that he also went to Santorini. The Greeks also knew of volcanoes. My point is, he would be well aware that at least some disaster had occurred there. That said, if he were to make Crete the basis for Atlantis, why set it out beyond the Pillars of Hercules, in the Atlantic Ocean? And, as you know, Thera didn't sink, by the way.

I asked you this the last post, but you seem to have overlooked it. Doesn't it bother you that so much of human history is unaccounted for? As Plato says in Timaeus, there have been many disasters visited upon humankind. It would be narrow-minded to simply focus on the one.

Sayings may be short, like this. They can also be long - like a five hour act or opera.

Modern actors learn all their plays from manus-reading, practizing and resiting. Mollieres and Shakespears colluegues had to be listening - rather than reading and then practicisng and resiting. They still learn, prepare and perform the intent and the poetics of a story - by heart - before performing...

In a wide-spread population - where the oral tradition is the only widespread medium - we get a cultural environment where the main bonding goes alongside memorizing the major stories, seremonies, rites, rhytms and rhyme - of the everyday life.

Thus the classical world had many different specialists, surrounding the constitutional and gouvernmantal body. Some technocrats, some beureucrats, some service-men and women, some advisors, some communicators, some clerics, some law-men, some judges, some traders, some tailors, some smiths, some tailors, some fishermen. Some farmers, some gatherers, some hunters, some heirds. Some watchers, some weel-makers, some carpenters, some wood-carvers. Some painters, some jesters, some artists, some actors. Pretty much like today.

But they all had to learn by apprentice. A system known as the Olderman-system, - where the older is responsible for educating the younger - of their respective craft.
In the education of Py-ta-go-re-as they most probable used blackboards and chalck. Or sand. But all the lessons and dialogues were oral - and the discussions, Q & A, were held by the students in pairs - making a daily 2 hour walk. A recepy acknowledged by modern psychomotoric studies. We learn better if the body is prescribed "co-oridinated movement" (legs,spine,arms together). A 2 x 20 minutedaily training-program are repported to have been strengtening the pedagogical situation - and the brain`s ability (willingness) to absorb new information - in young school-pupils. But even better it is for old students...

In a city were all people memorize their wehereabouts - bad counsciousness is having a very hard time - however small your sin may have been. But if you may put in in writing - and than allow yourself to "leave it noted" until later, - the second step - to forget the whole mishap - is all the easier.

In a state, or kingdom, - where everybody know all the same stories - it becomes very difficult to start twarting or distorting ANYTHING in one oral epos, - even if it is 3 hours of resiting.

Imagine that every person over 21 knew all of Shakespeares act - since there was no other media existing to compete with the local theater. Not even a single printed matter would appear - at Shakespears time. So everybody went to see evry performance they could. And evrybody over 14 knew most of the stories - by hart.

If these theatre-pieces were played all over England - for many generations; they would lead to an overall knowledge of all Shakespears works. Most people would learn them by hart. All the proffessional actors would controll all other collegues too, the same way.

In this environment - where ALL citizens know the poems and stories, - what are the possibility of altering this collective memory? Even one ord, in one line of one verse would be impossible to alter. Without protests. Especially from the newly educated.

You see - the oral tradition along with an elephantic memory - made our ancient forefather far prior to us - as intelegtual human beings. We are actually the dumber - because we keep lowering our personal standards concerning adaptability, learning ability and memorative capacities.

Try to imagine how the old culture inside the Baltic bay lived during Eurasian ice-age. MORE than half the year they were forced to keep themselves inside houses, keeping the fire going, - along with some daily nourishment.

For the rest life was easy-going anf quiet during winter-time. Waiting for the spring -and the rush of the melt-water, once again to call threes, plants and animals back to pleasure still available in this life.

Before the horrible cataclysm started ice-time, the earth have enjoyed a tropical climate that had developed stadily for 600-700 million years. Some 35-65 million years ago the ice came - rechanging the face of the earth - and all its life.

That ended only 10.000 years ago, as artical man arrivede with boats - to all of Fenno-Scandia, Russia, N Europe and the islands of the North Atlantic Ocean. Simultaniously they visited the Mediterranean pre-cultures. In a few years they had reached all continetns, mixing in with all the tropical kingdoms of the planet. Thus we have a large reference to Platos story - if we allow the Norse saga-material to add its first hand information - on the matter of Atlantis.

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Given that Plato's account is most definitely wrong, it is pointless to quote him to try and debunk the Minoan Theory. Its not the theory that is wrong, it is Plato.

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Your reply

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My, what a self-serving and totally baseless statement!

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The statement I made follows from the fact that 200 {generations} of oral history is bound to be inaccuate. This is coupled with the fact of Minoan history which existed in close proximity with Greece and had a similar demise to the one mentioned in Plato's account of Atlantis. This is not self-serving, it is a line of reasoning.

You, on the other hand would out egyptologize known Egyptologists and fabricate non-existant Egyptian history to back up you assertion that the story of Atlantis was handed down by written record from the start. I would say that this is a little "self-serving."

What I am saying is lets look at known historical facts and see if Plato's story bears some reseblance to what we know of history. Why should we accept Plato verbatim and then try to find a hisory to match it. This latter approach is amateur. It has already been shown that using this appraoch you can get 101 versions Atlantis ranging from Antartica to Cuba to Taiwan.

Your statement:

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Which to me, raises this question: who originally came up with this ill-fitting comparison in the first place? Was it Arthur Evans? I believe so.

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Thats right! Let's start lashing out at professionally trained archaeologists because sound research and informed opinions are not really wanted here!

[This message has been edited by jshsitar (edited 01-16-2005).]

[This message has been edited by jshsitar (edited 01-16-2005).]

ORAL TRADITIONS
200 years actually does NOTHING to an oral story. If it is adequatly rehearsed, performed, viewed, commemorated and re-viewed annually - by several communities - there is no way ONE of the theathres can alter their resition of an epic history of "royal proportions". Thus the old stories - such as the Sagas after a dead king, - was presented after his burial - and spread to the entire kingdom - to avoid falsifications or loss of his "true memory". One generation later it will be veritably IMPOSSIBLE to change even details about the old kings heroic journeys. Any such behaviour would be imediatly adressed -and dealt with - in a culture where the annual highlights and story-telling were due protocol.

POEMS, SONGS, SAGAS...
We know that numberless poems, songs, dances, stories, plays, dramas, music, etc. have been played over generations - are still learned by heart, through listening, rather than reading.

The resition of laws used to be a profession in the old cultures. The lawmen studied and practized - until both understanding AND memory, - down to evry metric verse of the matter. By hart.

Exchange this clases of "lawsayers" with "The Book of Law" - and you skip the understanding of the LAWMAKERS. To fully understand the reason and purpose with any lawtext one has to comprehend the "intentions" of the Lawmakers. Those are only available in a cultural CON-text.
With the books alone we got a poorer culture of practized law. Not to mention the effective misuse made available - as the authority could change this law - without reason and democratic significance, but for the tyrannys own benefit.

Besides - as we already know all to d` well; The worst lies, distorions and misconceptions about our past was MADE from an agressive Latin rule and writing-culture. When the authority of the "true story" finally was defined to the Holy Book itself - and ONLY that - to be communicated within the population. Accept from matters realted to an assigned position - there was NO academic discussion permitted - outside the Vatican institutions, or its designates.
All others had the weekly speech of the vicar, beside an arsenal of old folklore, songs, dances and stories - that was performed at gatherings and partys througout the winter.

We used to have a culture - where all of us played a part. Today thats all disc-jockyed. Pre-made on CD. Just plug, press play - and bom-bom-bom.

We used to be listeners. And tellers. All of us.

The other day I passed by my local kindergarten (prep schol). They still use some old verses called "Elle Melle" - as to appoint who is next to go inside the ring - in a game called "The Blind Buck", - the most common of traditional Scandinavian child-games.

The semantic meaning of this verse was forgotten and became unknown. Until very recently, when the connection to its old naval culture was reconsidered. The verses used by todays Scandinavian - transmitted orally from playground to playground, by ALL children growing up - have roots back to the pre-christian society.

Just bear in mind - that the reason we do not know much about our pre-christian past is not that this history did not exist. The reason is neither that the early Europeans was a "late" and rather "barbar" culture. Like (all) the red indians became "savages".

But, contrary to general belief; the reason why our antiquety disapeared in destructive wars and cultural demolitions - where NOT its civilized past - but its barbaric future. In the form of misled societies, desperate populations and agression as violence. 1000 years of mideval destruction alone completly erradicated the ancient European history - and the clear, widespread memory of Alt-land-is, - as it used to be called -- in the North.

I do presume Plato refers to the same reality as other sources of the same significance - stating that A Atlantis DID exist...

But - the legacy of Atlantis still exist.
In all major languages and cultures you find the boat, the birdman, the sun/star/moon, the lion and the king, the pillar and the ring, even pyramids and domes. They are all made in the meeting between the older (proto) cultures - and visitors arriving "as birds in boats". They are all given different names, from CoAsCoAtl to Asok. BUT they all share a common origin - we just havent been able to deduct from where. Before now.

Their common origin was the population known in clasical texts as "Atlantis". According to Mayan myths their "Great Teachers" came "flying over the sea" - from the east. According to Plato they came through the pillars of Hercules. Somewhere inbetween - means that Atlantis existed in what today is known as the Atlantic Ocean.

To presume that the name of the ocean should have any etymythological connection with the legendary Atlantis - is off course a most presumptious statement to rise, since we have no known source verifying that. As common sense seems to be disqulified in the matter.

But still we may understand that parts of our present culture - sucg as language, song and music - has very old roots. And today we may express that highligths of Christmas, Easter, Midsummer and Thanksgiving - ALL originated in the society also known as Atlantis. And we still adress the days of the week, according to the Sun-day, the Moon-day, the Dies-day, Wodans-day, Thurs-day and Frei-day; commemorating the most important charachters of the Atlantean culture.

The legendary Atlantis have a funny paralell to the History of Sexuality. Everyone who have seen the Indian Kama Sutras knows that "sexual cultivation" is historical, - and not an invention of the sinful 1960-ties. If the ancient Indian, Kama Sutra-culture had succeded we wouldt have had the concept of "anti-nature" - as the sexual supression that followed the Mideval Church and their contemporary Muhammedans. This "Anti-nature-movement" eventually led to mental numbness and a cultural decline beyond understanding - to us. Centuries of idiosyncracy have made us somewhat numb - on the mental and intelectual areas.

On the roman calendar the Oak Month became "January". As the Vatican ruled the world all got to call the first month of the year in honor of Janus. And thus it became.

But - still the most important bais of todays cultures, as to language, constitution and laws - are clearly and directly inheritted from Atlantis. Like the name of the days of the week...

To comment on your theory, I do believe it is possible to maintain an oral tradition with a reasonable degree of accuracy over a period of time. This would be possible if the social institution (family or otherwise) existed to hand down the stories without altertion. I think that in practice this does not occur. Bardic traditions were also creative and most cases musical ones. There are many example of old songs dealing with historical events and historical personalities. While they have a degree of accuracy they are not in themselves reliable as history. We see in the case of the Ramayana, Rama, who was a King, later became deified by Tulsidas into God Rama.

If we look at the Illiad and the Oddessy we can see that some of the information is based on history and some is mythology. The time between the Trojan war and Homer was only about 500 years or about 15 generations. If inaccuracies can arise in this relatively short period of time, then these inaccuacies would be magnified over the longer period of time. I understand that in the case of the Ramayana there are disrepancies in different versions of the oral tradition. I would say that the discrepancies that would arise deal with memory and creative alterations. These would increase "mathematically" over time. I think that this is evident in Plato's account. If we assume, for the sake of argument, that the 9000 year figure is accurate, then we would have to account for the discrepancies between a Stone Age (historical) and a Bronze Age (in Plato) civilisation. This is one reason why I think Plato's account is inaccuate.

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The Indian Ocean Tsunami and Atlantis Linked
The current disaster in the Indian Ocean that affected Indonesia (Sumatra), Thailand, India, Sri Lanka, and many islands is part of the same geological system that destroyed Atlantis, according to at least one researcher.

(PRWEB) January 11, 2005 -- The current disaster in the Indian Ocean that affected Indonesia (Sumatra), Thailand, India, Sri Lanka, and many islands is part of the same geological system that destroyed Atlantis, according to at least one researcher.

Most people think of Atlantis as a mythological civilization in the Atlantic Ocean, says Bill Lauritzen, an independent scholar. “To the ancient Egyptians, who were the first to start the Atlantis story, the Atlantic Ocean was the entire ocean surrounding Africa.” Lauritzen points out that the Pacific Ocean was not named until 1519 by Magellan—long after the Atlantis story. Thus, other areas besides the current Atlantic Ocean should be considered as possibilities for Atlantis.

In his new book, "The Atom and the Soul," Lauritzen claims that the Sunda Plain of Indonesia fits Plato’s Atlantis story quite well. It has elephants, coconuts, a large fertile plain, geological activity, tsunamis, a wide variety of flora and fauna, and canals. All of these elements are mentioned in Plato’s story. The many other locations suggested for Atlantis, such as Spain, the island of Thera, Antarctica, North Africa, the Bahamas, Great Briton, and Mexico do not contain all these elements. “Just read Plato’s story, and make up your own mind. It’s available online,” says Lauritzen. “One comes away feeling that Atlantis was somewhere in Southeast Asia. Oral tradition could have easily carried the tale of destruction to Egypt through the Red Sea. The Egyptians then told it to the Greeks.”

Lauritzen also points out several other disasters in the area such as the 1883 eruption of Krakatau that killed 35,000 people in the resulting tsunami, a possible 535 AD eruption of Krakatau, and the 1006 AD eruption of Mount Merapi, which destroyed the Mataram civilization. “The whole island of Sumatra is slowing turning like a forearm, with the elbow at Krakatau,” he points out. “This region of the world is the most geologically active on the planet. Indian Ocean core sediments show that there have been about 10 huge volcanic eruptions in the last 950,000 years.”

Lauritzen, who is also an adjunct faculty at Los Angeles City College, says that the current tragedy deserves our immediate attention, “People should donate money to one of the various relief organizations.”

His book’s complete title is: "The Atom and the Soul: A Bold New View of the Origin of Science and Religion." It is currently available for download as an ebook at www.earth360.com.

For more info:
Bill Lauritzen
310-305-1987

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In regards to my calling your statement "baseless" and "self-serving, well, here it is:

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Given that Plato's account is most definitely wrong, it is pointless to quote him to try and debunk the Minoan Theory. Its not the theory that is wrong, it is Plato.

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Short on proof, long on opinion, which, to me = self-serving!

As for my own statement regarding Egyptian history, well that did not come out of thin air. The Egyptians themselves believe their culture is that old. Egyptology is a field studying the Egyptians, and thus, prone to making faulty conclusions. For instance, most sites regarding stone are carbon 14 dated by the organic matter they find there. This fail to take into account that the site could have had other settlers there at a later date who also found it a sound dwelling.

In regards to Arthur Evans, true he was a trained archaeologist, but I have seen nothing in his history to show he was very much interested in Atlantis. Time has proven him to be wrong.

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Lauritzen also points out several other disasters in the area such as the 1883 eruption of Krakatau that killed 35,000 people in the resulting tsunami, a possible 535 AD eruption of Krakatau,

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I quoted the same info and added that Santorini was 4X the size,,, and a lot closer to Greece!

your

quote:

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In regards to my calling your statement "baseless" and "self-serving, well, here it is:

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my quote:

quote:

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Given that Plato's account is most definitely wrong, it is pointless to quote him to try and debunk the Minoan Theory. Its not the theory that is wrong, it is Plato.

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Your quote:

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Short on proof, long on opinion, which, to me = self-serving!

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You're in good company; You and Plato- both wrong!

your quote:

quote:

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As for my own statement regarding Egyptian history, well that did not come out of thin air. The Egyptians themselves believe their culture is that old. Egyptology is a field studying the Egyptians, and thus, prone to making faulty conclusions. For instance, most sites regarding stone are carbon 14 dated by the organic matter they find there. This fail to take into account that the site could have had other settlers there at a later date who also found it a sound dwelling.

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This amounts to opinion/belief and is not proof that you are always asking of me.

Its interesting, but at Farshores, when we reached this point in the discussion (a few years back) a contributer said that the Egyptologists were hiding the existence of this earlier civilization and they were, in effect, blocking the use of ground penetrating radar that would reveal the truth. I expressed my doubts on this angle.

your quote:

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In regards to Arthur Evans, true he was a trained archaeologist, but I have seen nothing in his history to show he was very much interested in Atlantis. Time has proven him to be wrong.

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I don't think that anything in this quote would get Sir Evans into your elite group of people with wrong opinions!

If one are able to learn a metric verse completly by heart, - and ones grand-grand-children does just the same, ALL people of the village will know ALL the epics in question. More precise than any book can explain...

There are two scenarios that I believe are possible.

The first is that Plato believed the info that was handed down via Solon but that this information had become distorted. I think that the original story referred to the demise of the Minoan culture on Crete.

The other scenerio combines this view with Plato having gone to Crete and using the remnants of an older civilisation there and an inspiration to write Historical Fiction. Either way the accounts are not fully accurate. The story of Atlantis does however bear some resemblance to what we know of Minoan civilisation. Full correspondence should not be expected.

Here is some info on disasters from:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/pole5.htm

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The Minoan civilization in the Aegean was devastated by fire, flooding, and ash, following a series of volcanic eruptions on the island of Thera (Santorini), 125 km to the north of Crete, the final explosion being dated at 1628 BC.20 Manetho's king list dates the flood of Deucalion to the reign of the sixth king of the 18th dynasty, or about 1500 BC.21 (Plato, however, says that it followed the sinking of Poseidonis.) Around 1250 BC, extensive flooding seems to have occurred in Anatolia (modern Turkey), burying the Bronze Age city of Tiryns, and at about the same time the rich merchant city of Troy (archaeological level VI) was destroyed by an earthquake.22
The tree-ring record for the past 5000 years points to global environmental traumas between 2354 and 2345 BC, 1628 and 1623 BC, 1159 and 1141 BC, 208 and 204 BC, and AD 536 and 545. The first three fall within Blavatsky's dates for the Age of Aries. These five episodes coincide with the onset of 'dark ages' for society. They involved earthquakes, tidal waves, volcanic eruptions, and ocean floor outgassing. According to one school of thought, they may have been triggered by a series of cometary impacts about the size of the 20-megaton explosion at Tunguska in Siberia in 1908.23

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Note the evidence from tree rings that indicates a major disaster as a result of (or at the time of) the Santorini eruption/tsunami. This affected the world for 5 years! I think that this information is worth looking into.
See also: http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSScience0009/15_atlantis.html

[This message has been edited by jshsitar (edited 01-18-2005).]

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Friday, September 15, 2000

Trees may record end of Atlantis

By RANDOLPH E. SCHMID-- The Associated Press

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Ancient pine tree stumps found in a Swedish peat bog may hold a record of the great volcanic blast that some historians associate with the end of the fabled Atlantis.

Using radiocarbon dating, a team of researchers determined that the trees had been alive between 1695 BC and 1496 BC, and a study of their growth rings showed a four-year period of severely depressed growth about 1636 BC.

Major volcanic eruptions have been known to blast enough dust into the atmosphere to cause frosts and limit crop growth, and one of the most powerful such blasts occurred when the Greek island of Santorini blew up in the mid-1600s BC.

That disaster destroyed a culturally developed island and some historians believe it gave rise to the legend of the lost continent Atlantis.

"Our dating and the severe magnitude of this phenomenon suggest that it can be ascribed to the 1628-27 BC event, hence providing new evidence of a wider, more northerly area of influence," the team of Swedish scientists reports in the Sept. 15 issue of Geophysical Research Letters.

While the team led by Hakan Grudd of the Climate Impacts Research Center in Kiruna, Sweden, dated the Santorini blast to 1628, other scholars use different dates, though all are within a few years.

The Swedish team said their tree ring dating had a margin of error of plus or minus 65 years.

Other scientists studying tree rings have found periods of frost damage and slow growth in the mid-1600s BC affecting Irish, English and German oaks, pine trees in California and trees in Turkey.

This is the northernmost evidence of an effect from the volcanic blast, the researchers said of the new Swedish find.

"The evidence is consistent with the hypothesis of a major Northern Hemisphere volcanic eruption in 1628 BC, which may have been Santorini in the Aegean Sea," they concluded.

The climate impact of volcanoes has long been a topic of discussion, going back at least to Benjamin Franklin. The eruption of the Indonesian volcano Tambora was blamed for a worldwide cooling in 1816 -- known as the "year without a summer" in New England, where snow fell in June.

Today Santorini is a popular tourist spot, where visitors can see the great caldera formed when the ancient volcanic island blew up and view excavations uncovering the remains of the ancient town.

The first mention of Atlantis occurs in Plato, who discusses an ancient island or continent destroyed by earthquakes and sunk into the sea.

Geophysical Research Letters is published by the American Geophysical Union, an international scientific society.

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However, I want to mention that today I have posted a similar-but-different view (compared to your Minoans-were-Atlantis views)in the Tribes of Atlantis II topic.

It seems to me that the Middle Minoans formed an alliance with Egypt's Dynasty 15, with the aim of driving out a common enemy (i.e. Egypt's Dynasty 14, which served as the model for Plato's Atlantean invasion of Egypt, because Dynasty 14 seized the western part of the Nile Delta, before Dynasty 14 was conquored by a combination of pelasgian-Greeks and Anath-worshipers).

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You're in good company; You and Plato- both wrong!

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Jshsitar, please point out your proof that Plato was wrong. Because you haven't so far, your case has simply been one long on opinion. Opinions and theories are not facts, as we know everybody has one.

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but at Farshores, when we reached this point in the discussion (a few years back) a contributer said that the Egyptologists were hiding the existence of this earlier civilization and they were, in effect, blocking the use of ground penetrating radar that would reveal the truth. I expressed my doubts on this angle.

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I am not making the assumption that Egyptologists are hiding evidence of a past civilization. I am simply saying that Egyptians themselves say that their civilization is far older than given credit for, Egyptology is hardly an exact science, and that, since one cannot carbon date a block of stone, they may well be wrong. Geologist Robert Schoch, who is a scientist, definitely dates the Sphinx to an older era, as you know. He is not alone in that fact.

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The story of Atlantis does however bear some resemblance to what we know of Minoan civilisation.

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That is a red herring and you know it. Minoan civilization bears almost no resemblance to the Atlanteans. They were a peaceful people, who traded with other nations while Atlantis was a militaristic empire that invaded and suppressed others. The one trait in common? Bull worship, and as I have already said, that was common in the Mediterranean.

If I were to pick a civilization and a story that most resembled the Atlanteans, it would not be the Minoans, or Troy, or the Sea People or any of the other likely suspects that have been listed as Atlantis. I would pick the Persians. They would have been the great battle that the ancient Athenians were to have fought. As we know, the Greeks united against the Persians and defeated an army ten times their size, just like the Persians.

Yet, even they were not Atlantis.

Next, you'll say that the Atlantis was some sort of composite of all the above people. To which I say, again, where is the proof? Time and again, Plato says that the story is "true."

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The Minoan civilization in the Aegean was devastated by fire, flooding, and ash, following a series of volcanic eruptions on the island of Thera (Santorini), 125 km to the north of Crete, the final explosion being dated at 1628 BC.20 Manetho's king list dates the flood of Deucalion to the reign of the sixth king of the 18th dynasty, or about 1500 BC.21 (Plato, however, says that it followed the sinking of Poseidonis.)

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Plato does NOT say it follows the sinking of Poseidonos. The Egyptian priest mentions distinctly that the Greeks remember only the single deluge, while there were several. The "single deluge" that the priest mentions is the flood of Deucalion, which has often been dated to anywhere from 1628 to 1500 b.c. (which, logic dicates, would make it the Santorini disaster). So, in other words, the Greeks already had their story of Thera/Santorini and it was one of their most well known myths: the Flood of Deucalion. That again, would seem to suggest that the Atlantis event was something that happened well before Greek history.

from Timaeus:

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On one occasion, wishing to draw them on to speak of antiquity, he began to tell about the most ancient things in our part of the world-about Phoroneus, who is called "the first man," and about Niobe; and after the Deluge, of the survival of Deucalion and Pyrrha; and he traced the genealogy of their descendants, and reckoning up the dates, tried to compute how many years ago the events of which he was speaking happened. Thereupon one of the priests, who was of a very great age, said: O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you. Solon in return asked him what he meant. I mean to say, he replied, that in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age. And I will tell you why. There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes.

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This is the reference to Deucalion which corresponds with the Santorini myth. Note, the Egyptian priest makes a point to mention that the story he is about to tell (the war between Athens and Atlantis), happens before Deucalion (most likely Santorini). This would also seem to suggest that the logic Minoan theorists use to place the time in the era of Santorini is flawed as well.

(When I say that most Minoan theorists haven't read Plato, I am not being facetious, it's simply clear that they have not).

In other words, wrong again, Jshsitar.

From Timaeus:

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As for those genealogies of yours which you just now recounted to us, Solon, they are no better than the tales of children. In the first place you remember a single deluge only, but there were many previous ones; in the next place, you do not know that there formerly dwelt in your land the fairest and noblest race of men which ever lived, and that you and your whole city are descended from a small seed or remnant of them which survived. And this was unknown to you, because, for many generations, the survivors of that destruction died, leaving no written word.

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And this passage clearly places the Atlantis catastrophe after the Greek's great flood myth. Incidentally, Plato never calls the main island "Poseidonos," that is an Edgar Cayce creation.

Here are the dates commonly given for the Greek flood myth, according to C. Parada's homepage:

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http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/MythicalChronology.html

1480
The Flood
Aegyptus 1, Danaus 1, Deucalion 1, Agenor 1, Lycaon 2, Cranaus, etc.

1450
The DANAIDS kill their husbands
Lynceus 2, Teucer 2, Callisto, Hellen 1.

1400
Foundation of Thebes
Europa, Cadmus, Arcas 1, Acrisius.

1350-1300
Foundation of Mycenae and Troy.
Killing of the NIOBIDS.
Perseus 1, Pelops 1, Ilus 2, Cecrops 2, Laius 1, Aeson, Procris 2,
Minos 2.

1280-1200
Gigantomachy.
Expedition of the ARGONAUTS.
War of the SEVEN AGAINST THEBES.
War of the EPIGONI.
Trojan War.

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The Marmor Parium compared to the chronologies by Denis Pétau
(1583-1652) from 1628, and Giambattista Vico (1668-1744) from 1744.

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1532


The Flood in the age of Deucalion 1.

1529

Amphictyon (son of Deucalion 1), king of Thermopylae.

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Logically, if this were the great flood that exists in Greek mythology (Santorini) it would HAVE to mean that the Egyptian priest was dating Atlantis to an earlier time, which, once again, blows the idea of Minoan Crete as Atlantis out of the water. So to speak.