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Author Topic:   Atlantis References that Predate or are Contemporary with Plato
Chronos
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posted 10-05-2004 10:25     Click Here to See the Profile for Chronos     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, this started out as a good idea for a thread, at any rate. I think it would be safe to claim that listing Strabo as a reference to Atlantis would be, at best, a stretch.

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Chronos
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posted 10-05-2004 11:19     Click Here to See the Profile for Chronos     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
The name Atlantis consists of two South American words, "atl" meaning water and "antis" meaning copper

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Chronos
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posted 10-05-2004 11:36     Click Here to See the Profile for Chronos     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
THE BASQUES

Basque mythology, filled with all manner of supernatural creatures, bears no resemblance to any of the mythologies of the Mediterranean. The evidence shows that the Basques have resided in western Europe since about 10,000 b.c., and, genetically, share traits in common with the Guanches, who reside in the Canary Islands.

The Basque claim to be descendents from Atlantis. The Guanches claimed to have come to the Canaries after their homeland in the Atlantic was destroyed in a great cataclysm. The Guanches do not specifically mention Atlantis, yet it would seem to be a logical conclusion.

The Basques do mention Atlantis, yet it isn't clear is whether they mentioned it, or a homeland anything like it, prior to the words of Plato. Researching Basque mythology, I have yet to find a story even resembling the Atlantis myth as a point of origin for this mysterious people (although I intend to keep looking).

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Chronos
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posted 10-05-2004 12:09     Click Here to See the Profile for Chronos     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
TARTESSOS

* Strabo, the Greek geographer and historian, tells us that 2,600 years before his time, certain navigants crossed beyond the Pillars of Hercules, and dealt with the Tartessians. Now, these Tartessians — who are often identified with the Atlanteans — had, he affirms, written records of their history that amounted to 7,000 years before their own time. Again, this adds to a date of about 11,600 BP, precisely as preconized by Plato for the Atlantean cataclysm, for Strabo flourished in the times of Christ

The actual existence of Tartessos is beyond dispute. It is mentioned in many ancient sources, among them, the Bible. However, it is sunken somewhere along the coastline of Spain and has yet to be found. Unless Plato made many seriour errors in his account concerning his measurements, Tartessos could not in itself have been Atlantis. However, it does make sense that this city could have been a colony of Atlantis of some sort.

Leaving aside the Strabo reference for the moment, I think it would be important to look to see where the source is that the records of Tartessos go back some 7,000 years. As we know, the city is sunken, and the Phoenicians only developed their alphabet around 1,000 b.c.

Much also is made of the idea that Tartessos considered themselves to be descendents of the Atlanteans. However, unless we uncover actual records close to the age that is described (supposedly dating back to the era in question, in an era where there was no writing), we can't be sure that any of this is anything other than conjecture.

That discovery, by the way, would also happen to eradicate what we know of the history of the written language.


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Chronos
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posted 10-05-2004 12:27     Click Here to See the Profile for Chronos     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There are too many coincidences all along the coastline of western Europe to simply dismiss the Atlantis connection there. It is also worth noting that the "spiral" that appears on many of the megaliths in the Canaries, England and western Europe has also been thought to have some sort of Atlantis conenction (and that the very same spiral is found on caves in Cuba).

If the stories of the Basques and the Guanches are to be believed, two similar people that lived along the shores of the Atlantic (not to mention the Berbers of Morrocco), then it would make even less sense for the Atlantis story to have a Mediterranean origin.

We know that their are underwater cities along the coastlines of Spain and western Africa, and, if the Russians and Dr. Maxine Asher are to be believed, these cities also stretch out into the eastern Atlantic.

More documentation, though, is needed to prove the connection between the Basques, Guanches and Tartessos.

*Written records of the city of Tartessos and it's true history have to be uncovered (something that probably won't be accomplished until the city itself is found.

*The language left behind by the Guanches on rocks in the Canary Islands has to be deciphred.

*A myth linking Atlantis and the Basques might also exist somewhere, or at least something more specific dealing with their Atlantis connection.

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atalante
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posted 10-06-2004 21:32     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is part of a post which rockessence made today in the Tribes of Atlantis topic.

I think you will see the relevance.

A claim is being made that bronze tablets were created ca 1200-1600 BC, in a "land of the Hyperboreans", and that Plato's writings (outside the Atlantis texts) explain some details connected to those ancient bronze memorials.

quote:
According to Herodotus:

Two virgins were sent from Hyperborea to bring gifts to the goddess and protector of childbirth, Eileithyia.
Their names were Laodice and Hyperokhe.
Five men, called ”perferies”, were sent with them as guardians for a long and arduous trip.
They came VIA the land of Scyths, which was northwest of Black Sea, where Ukraine is today.(Therefore, down the river-system)
From there to the head of Adriatic sea and thence to the mainland of Greece, through the island of Euboia and finally to Delos.
Those four hyperborean maidens remained in Delos the rest of their lives, as priestesses, in the temple of Artemis, and there they also died.
They were highly respected for many centuries.
When Delian youngsters got married, both girls and boys cut a lock of hair and placed it on the grave of Laodice and Hyperokhe, To ask for easy deliveries and healthy babies.
An olive tree grew on the grave when Herodotus saw it, at 450 BZ.

But Delians told him that two maidens, named Arge and Opis, had come there first, from Hyperborea, at the same time with the two gods, Artemis and Apollo.
Arge and Opis had come to help and assist Leto with the delivery of the two gods.

(I am thinking that, as priestesses of Apollo and Artemis, they BROUGHT the information-of worshipping the two gods, with them from the far north)

They were respected by a choir that sung a song a Lycian man, named Olen, also said to be Hyperborean, had composed for them, during the festivals that were held every fourth or later every fifth year.
Their names were repeatedly mentioned in that song.
When an animal was sacrificed, it was eaten mostly but the hind leg was burnt on the altar and the ashes were spread to the grave of Arge and Opis.

But this is important, Arge and Opis brought with them a message, bronze plates in which were written the joys and grievings of Paradise and Hades.

This story is to be found in the writings of Plato:

In his book number seven, he writes what Sokrates had told to his friend Aksiokhos.
Sokrates mentions the story he had heard from a man named Gobryes.
The grandfather of this Gobryes had been sent to the island of Delos to save the valuables from the marauding Persians, in the year when they were invading Greece, 480 BZ.

This here is the text of the bronze plates;

”Soul goes to the land of shady light after parting from the body, deep underground, (the Lemminkainen Temple, now being excavated in Finland?) where Pluto rules as a King, areas which are as large as the halls of Zeus.
When the Earth is in the center of universe, and universe is like a ball, gods of the Sky rule one half and the gods of Hades rule the other half.
Other gods are brothers, and others are the children of brothers.
On the road to the outer court of Pluto there are iron gates which are closed with iron keys.
When gates are opened, first Acheron and then Cocytos rivers must be crossed to get to the fields of truth where Rhadamanthys and Minos wait for you.
There the judges ask what kind of life you have lived when the soul was still within you.
(Rhadamanthys judged the Asian people, Minos the European.)(Leo's parenthesis)
There you cannot lie.
Those who have obeyed the voice of good consience, go to the fields of blessed.
There fruits grow in a mild climate, clean rivers flow and fields are full of springtime flowers.
Philsophers talk, plays are being acted, choirs dance and music is being played.
There are no pains, life is full of enjoyments, the weather being not too cold, nor extreme hot, but the sunshine warms pleasantly.
Festivals are being held any time, no reason is needed for them.
Front seats are reserved for those who are engaged to the Mysteries, there they perform the holy rites.
The story tells that right here Herakles and Dionysos were initiated in to the holy Mysteries before they stepped down to the land of Hades, and that it was the Queen of the Eleusian Fields who encouraged them to do so.

But those who have led a criminal life go to the dark caves of Tartaros where the spirits of revenge take hold of them.
There the daughters of Danae endlessly scoop water and Tantalos suffers from unending thirst, Tityos, who’s mutilated organs just keep growing forever and Sisyfos, who pushes a big boulder uphill to start it anew time after time.
There the tongues of beasts lick them and the flames of the torches burn them.

Just figure it yourself, Aksiokhos, what Gobryes told me.
My own thinking is in doubt, but I do know that when souls part from us they are out of reach of pains.”

This is the text of the bronzeplates that Arge and Opis had brought with them from the land of Hyperborea, as told to Sokrates by Gobryes.
These plates are no more to be seen because barbarians stole all metals later on, but we are lucky to see the texts from the writings of Plato.

Were these maidens, Arge, Opis, Laodice and Hyperokhe Finns or the descendants of the Hyllean people who had emigrated from the island of Corfu to the Cronian Sea (adjacent to Finland), we will never get to know, perhaps.

But the writing of those bronze-plates describing the conditions of Paradise and Hades were most probably from Hel.
Herodotus wonders that even in his time, 450 BZ, those graves were to be seen in Delos.
But they are still there today, well kept and marked, in the maps too.

But when were those virgins buried there?
Three vases have been found in their graves beside the bones during the excavations.
They have been dated to be made at the Mycenaean time, 1600–1200 BZ.

endquote

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atalante
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posted 10-09-2004 15:17     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Herodotus (ca 450 BC) wrote that he did not think there was a sea (=ocean) beyond Europe.

This is curious since he must have talked to the Phoenicians.

quote from: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126&query=chapter%3D%23519&layout=&loc=3.114.1

CXV. These then are the most distant lands in Asia and Libya. But concerning those in Europe that are the farthest away towards evening, I cannot speak with assurance; for I do not believe that there is a river called by foreigners Eridanus issuing into the northern sea, where our amber is said to come from, nor do I have any knowledge of Tin Islands, where our tin is brought from. [2] The very name Eridanus betrays itself as not a foreign but a Greek name, invented by some poet; nor for all my diligence have I been able to learn from one who has seen it that there is a sea beyond Europe. All we know is that our tin and amber come from the most distant parts.
endquote


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Chronos
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posted 10-14-2004 14:38     Click Here to See the Profile for Chronos     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting, Atalante, but I think we cannot take it too literally. I think that there are other quotes of Herodotus referring to a people living along the shores of Africa, and, if we search hard enough, we shall find some reference to the ocean beyond. At any rate, remember the story also originated with the Egyptians, who certainly knew of it, there name for the Atlantic being the "Western Ocean."

I think we should also research more into the Phoenician trip that discovered the limits of the Atlantic. The more we know about that, the more detailed a picture we can come up with.

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atalante
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posted 10-16-2004 12:20     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chronos,

Here is Herodotus's report about the western horn of Africa. (I recommend that we compare this to the Greek myth about Eumolpus being raised by an "Ethiopian" daughter of Poseidon, followed by the subsequent attack by Eumolpus against both Eleusinus and Athens).

quote from: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126;query=chapter%3D%23518;layout=;loc=3.115.1

CXIV. Where south inclines westwards, the part of the world stretching farthest towards the sunset is Ethiopia; this produces gold in abundance, and huge elephants, and all sorts of wild trees, and ebony, and the tallest and handsomest and longest-lived people.
endquote

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Boreas
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posted 10-17-2004 17:13     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chron,
I do think you can take this AS litterally as the other stuff youre dealing with.

Both Basques and Guanches are part of the old Sea-culture that spread FROM the north - down south after ice-time.

Surviving ice-time in isolation of the high Noerth (Baltics) they had used the time to develop an advanced writing-system, - today known as The Alphabet.

Although this is news to you Chron, I think it is duely to relate the northern Sagas as valid sources of information about Atlantis. They are - in fact - MORE precise, contextual, chronologic and clear than Plato has ever been.

IF you are able to accept this news - you may even contribute to create some ligth on the issue of this specific thread. But that means accepting for discussion statements like this; The source of the Atlantean culture laid in the Baltics, developed during the eonic ice-time. Or maybe ALL the knowledge actually was produced BEFORE ice-time, but only the islolated articals managed to keep it intact, -and thus becomming the teacher we hear about - arriving in ALL tropical civilisations, from Piking to Peru, - during antiquety.

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Chronos
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posted 10-18-2004 08:28     Click Here to See the Profile for Chronos     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Boreas,

I have been following what you have written about the Bock Saga since I joined here in the summer, so, contrary to what you said, it isn't new to me. I do have a great deal of respect for your work, even if I don't agree with all of it.

Some points about the material you just posted:

*While you've proven to me that perhaps the Minoans and the Mycenaens may have come from the north, I haven't seen anything in the Bock work to suggest something similar with the Basuques and the Guanches. Genetically, they are distinct among the people of Europe and may just as well had an Atlantic origin.

*You suggest that the people of the north created the alphabet but we all know the Phoenicians have long been given credit for it. If the Bock people actually did create it, why was their history relayed in oral tradition, rather than written records? That would seem to fly in the face of all the evidence.

*The one written document that seems to back up the Bock work, the Oera Linde book, has a different date for Atlantis, 2123 b.c., in my opinion that could suggest we are speaking about two different places. Or, either one of the two, the book or the oral tradition are wrong.

*I have yet to see anything in the Bock Saga pinpoint an exact location for Atlantis. Is there one?

*And, of course, Plato mentions two growing seasons, hard to have in the cold north.

I have a different view of the work. In my view, Atlantis existed in the ocean, the survivors migrated to the north (which sowed the seeds of the stories of this northern Atlantis) and descended towards the Mediterranean after a time.

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dweller
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posted 10-18-2004 10:47     Click Here to See the Profile for dweller     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Can I remind people that Critias was a character in Plato's writings. Sure, he was a real person, but would you assume that anything Hamlet said in Shakespeare's play was something Hamlet had really said? Plato was writing a political commentary on contemporary Greece, not writing history.

The Basques have no legend of Atlantis, and they got their alphabet from the Romans.

Apologies to those that have already read this commentary on Atlantis
Destroyed, but hopefully not all have:
Of all the books I've read on Atlantis, the most impressive (and the
one with the most archaeological evidence) is Rodney Castleden's
Atlantis Destroyed, published in 1998 by Routledge. Castleden also
wrote The Making of Stonehenge, The Knossos Labyrinth, The Stonehenge
People, Neolithic Britain, and Minoans: Life in Bronze Age Crete.
(And Classic Landforms of the Sussex Coast for the Geographical
Association, but that's not relevant here!).

On page 7 he discusses the Pillars of Hercules: "Before the sixth
century BC several mountains on the edges of mainland Greece were
seen as supports for the sky. Amongst others, the two southward-
pointing headlands on each side of the Gulf of Laconia were pillars
of Heracles. Then, to the Greeks, a large island with one end just
outside the pillars of Heracles could only have meant Crete. [This
isn't the sum of Castleden's thesis, wait for it]...Support for a
Peloponnesian location for the pillars comes, unexpectedly, from
Egypt. The Medinet Habu texts, dating from 1200 BC, describe the Sea
Peoples invading from islands to the north (possibly the Aegean),
'from the pillars of heaven', by which the Egyptians probably meant
that the invaders came from the end of the world as they knew it.'

He then goes on to say "The thesis of this book is that the story is
not one piece of identifiable proto-history but several, and that
Plato drew them together because he wanted to weave them into a
parable that commented on the state of the world in his own times ...
he wanted to entertain, improve and exalt his readers. A distant
memory of the Minoan civilization was available, preserved for his
use, as he said, by the seventh century priests in the Nile delta.
The wealth, orderliness and strangeness of the Minoans are sketched
in for us." Castleden then points out that Plato does not write about
Atlantis as a utopia, but about Athens -- "It is the Athenians who
are described in utopian terms. It is they who have relinquished
private property... and have prolific fields and boundless pastures.
It is Athens that is the excellent land with well-tempered seasons."

Castleden follows this with a very detailed discussion of the
archaeology and geography of Minoan Crete and Thera and how that
compares with Plato's tale. He goes into detail about how the story
might have been transmitted to Plato and Plato's possible motives in
writing the two essays. (He also mentions that there was a century
older text by Hellanicus, of which only a small fragment survives,
called 'Atlantis'!).

In the last chapter, he writes "There are several reasons why there
have been so many misunderstandings about the nature of Atlantis and
its location in time and space:

"1. Plato left the various elements in the story's visible and
undigested. Although he altered it, he did not do so thoroughly and
the result is that Atlantis as described cannot have existed at all.
That has led some commentators to claim mistakenly that the story is
fiction from start to finish, and thus to overlook the proto-
historical content.

"2. The Egyptians who acquired the story in 1520 BC or shortly
afterwards had a very different geographical sense from he Greeks of
Plato's or Solon's time. To the 16th-century Egyptians, the Aegean
was a long way to the west. When the story was passed to Solon, the
known world was expanding rapidly, and either Solon or the priest may
have assumed that Atlantis was out in the newly visited Atlantic
Ocean.This mistake may actually have led to the ocean being named
after the lost land, rather than the other way around as most people
have assumed.

"3. The geographical mistake was compounded by a misreading of Linear
A or B numerals, or a misreading of hieratic or demotic copies of the
story made in Sais by Egyptian scribes, in the fifteenth century or
later. This led to a tenfold exaggeration of many of the distance
measurements, and a hundredfold exaggeration of area, so that the
Plain of Mesara, instead of being small enough to fit into central
Crete, was inflated to the size of the southern Aegean. The land
areas involved became too big to fit into the Mediterranean: another
reason for removing Atlantis to the outer ocean.

"4. A similar mistranslation of numerals led to an exaggeration of
the 900 years elapsing between Thera's destruction and Solon's
Egyptian visit to 9000 years. The idea of an advanced bronze age
culture ...in 9600 BC has always been unacceptable to pre-historians,
and that has helped to push Atlantis to the outer fringes of academic
study.

[Here I'd like to interject that I've always been puzzled by those
who believe in a 9600 BC Atlantis and ignore the archaeological
evidence that there was no 9600 BC bronze age Athens. They seem to
want to say that half the story is true, the other half false.]

"5. The hypothesis revived repeatedly in the 20th century - that
Minoan Crete was Atlantis - has proved inadequate ... The parallel
hypothesis, based on more recent archaeological evidence, that
Cycladic Thera was Atlantis is also in itself inadequate. Because
these hypotheses can be rejected separately, many have rejected the
idea that Atlantis might have existed in the southern Aegean,
understandably overlooking the possibility that if the two hypotheses
are combined they do meet the needs of Plato's description.

6. -- omitted, about the Pillars of Heracles and dealt with above.

"7. It is possible that contemporary allegorical readings of the tale
were intended to be implicitly ironic, and that in relation to Sparta
and Syracuse Plato intended Athens to be Atlantis. From the
execution of Socrates, Plato learned the value of cricumspection and
may have chosen, for safety's sake, not to say directly what he meant.
"

What I find so impressive in this book, as I've said, is the wealth
of archaeological evidence.

One final point. Castleden is holding to the later date for the Thera
eruption, and includes an appendix justifying this.

Castleden goes into a lot of detail about where Plato got inspiration
for various aspects of his story.

A nuch older book, Atlantis: Fact or Fiction, ed. Edwin Ramage, is
also interesting, especially the section on the literary perspective.

Doug

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Chronos
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posted 10-19-2004 08:34     Click Here to See the Profile for Chronos     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome aboard, Doug.

We can only imagine we know what Plato's purpose was in writing both Timaeus and Critias. Those who assume they know the true purpose are kidding themselves. Plato is no longer around, nor did he leave any commentaries on his intentions on writing either of them. The commentaries that others have placed, like Plutarch, favor truth. If it was a commentary on Greek society as you suggest, I remind you that he already had "the Republic," which served that purpose much better.

As for Santorini, as your essay points out (unintentionally, I'm sure), there are so many inconsistencies with Plato's account that one really has to work to get it to fit Atlantis. Santorini, great though the archaeological findings might be, has always been a simple shortcut for lazy academics to dismiss Atlantis, many of whom, of course, had little interest in it in the first place. It bears almost no resemblance to the literal translation of Plato.

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Boreas
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posted 10-20-2004 01:01     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chronos,

Quote:
"I have been following what you have written about the Bock Saga since I joined here in the summer, so, contrary to what you said, it isn't new to me. I do have a great deal of respect for your work, even if I don't agree with all of it."

Thanks!
Though - there are people who have spent days, weeks and months to "listen into" and learn this saga as good as possible over the last 20 years. I have been following it, in many ways, since 1989 (only).

Prior to that I had a number of other traditions - including the European, Norse, Hindi and Hopi/Mayan myths on my table. So, from 89 on I intensified my study of the Norse - since it is the first hand reference to the bock-saga. But, - I have still a long way left to go - before i reach anywhere close to the bottom of it. Thus I wanted to be sure to mention the dimension of experience/indepth-study of the vast essays constituting the Bocksaga.


Quote:

*While you've proven to me that perhaps the Minoans and the Mycenaens may have come from the north, I haven't seen anything in the Bock work to suggest something similar with the Basuques and the Guanches. Genetically, they are distinct among the people of Europe and may just as well had an Atlantic origin.

- The Guanches and the Basques have indeed been keeping legends stating their roots back to Atlantis - in THEIR own myths. Personally I do not find that strange.

The Bocksaga is not saying anything explicit about these specific goups. But, - Given that the saga is genuine - it is still the by far oldest reference we have to the origin and spread of ALL populations of both east and west Eurasia. Where the Goanches, the Basques and even the Fomorians are - obviously - part of a fishing and sea-faring culture...

The time-span of the Bocksaga just happened to be very close to the one Michael Cremo/Ron Thompson have outlined in theirg outstanding works on "Forbidden Archaeology". Since there have been NO contact - whatsoever - between Cremo and any Saga-tellers before - we have to admit that the paralell in time-lines and frames turns their paralellity to be one more of these "incredible matches" - that we have experienced during the last 7-8 years. Its just incredible how astonishing new discoveries - time after time - show not only to fit with the outlines of the saga. As close as 1995 we - still - had only ONE man and his new and unknown saga - that told anything close to the existence of people in N Europe before 10.000 BP.

Moreover he told - in length - about the artic population originating from the Baltics, where they lived during the entire ice-time, etc., etc. ALL conventional historians - even the shrudest ones - would say that such a thougth was "silly" and "mere phantasy", since they all "knew" that "the massive glaciers made all life impossible" north of the 45 paralell...

Today - seven years after the first repports of Susiloula and Pechora were published - the professionals still have great difficulties with thes anomalies. Because they simly dont fit - into the old "picture" that most historians share. It just takes a lot of time - for them - to keep up with all the new discoveries done today. And then they have to consider and re-consider before some of their old "axions" can be re-evaluated. Finally they - like most of us - have a highly normal resentment towards admitting that your old, professional knowledge ends up as outdated opinions, false beliefs and incomplete knowledge...

Quote;
*You suggest that the people of the north created the alphabet but we all know the Phoenicians have long been given credit for it. If the Bock people actually did create it, why was their history relayed in oral tradition, rather than written records? That would seem to fly in the face of all the evidence.

- Another "why" with a very long tail?! What do YOU think is stored within the "Leminkainen Temple" - which contains artefacts from all cormers of the ancient antiquety?

Quote;
*The one written document that seems to back up the Bock work, the Oera Linde book, have a different date for Atlantis, 2123 b.c., in my opinion that could suggest we are speaking about two different places. Or, either one of the two, the book or the oral tradition are wrong.

- Or they are both rigth. Or both wrong...
To deal with the "colected mythologies" you have to choose ONE or two,three closely related ones - to be the BASELINE. Than you may relate ALL the other ones into that one. But it wont lead anywhere if we start to ramble around, picking and plucking fromall of them - to create our own version of history. That becomes OUR mythology then - whcih has nothing to do with "authenticity". We have seen what may happen when people start on that endavour - asessing, evaluating and "re-considering" history and myth. The religious books, Tora, Bible and Koran, are all clear examples of "cultures in crisis - reforming their mythologies to fit with "The Present Opinion". Which (obviously) miss whats most needed within all folklore/cultural research - the material must clearly be based in one or more AUTHENTIC traditions.

The only exception from that is archeological material - although that is a rather poor foundation for gaining insight into laguage and culture. But it sure helps - AFTER a oral/written story have made an outline. Or when a large mass of collected findings - from a specific area or time-frame - can be analyzed through high-speed search and comparision. Thus our archaology is a very young profession - where 95 % of all collected items are from the past 80 years. And the high-tech of today - that may date old items scientifically - did not come into use before the 1980-ties. (There are millions of old items in museal storage-rooms and halls that never have been dated yet. Its simply to much work to be finished this decade, even) But there again, the conclusions from a the major part of all works are aligned to a "main-theory" - also called a paradigm.

To avoid mixing apples and oranges you must give priority to your sources. Thus the Oera Linda becom subsidary. Dates, numbers and other specifications in the Oera Linda Boek have their own history. But, - WHAT does the Oera Lida itself say about Atlantis? Anything at ALL?

From what i remember it was Robert Scrutton who - after reading this facinating manuscript - created the link to the Atlantis-myth, - ending up with the thesis that "Texland" of Oera linda, actually was Atlantis.

The Bocksaga explicitly express all the neccesary WHYs,WHENs, WHERE and HOWs about "ALT-LAN-IS".

And mind you - this is NOT done to "supply the Greek myths" with the "rigth answers". Bocksaga gives the heck about all that. It simply tells The History of Man on This Planet. Because ice-time actually happened it has to be reffered to - in all neccesary detail - to be understood. Historically. As the articals still exist we may conclude that they developed this features during ice-time. It is now proven that this DID happen within the Baltics. Then you may accept or not what the Bocksaga tells about all of this. But you cant accept the saga - as such - and then start altering - or modifying - the outlines presented as facts - and anchored by the imminent relations to the root language of Scandinavia. (Which - BTW - geneticans have found to be the "oldest population in Europe". The basques and the scandinavians ae actually the only "nations" left - were the population still have clear resemblance, i.e. direct anchestory back to the "original Europeans, older than 10.000 years".)

Quote;
*I have yet to see anything in the Bock Saga pinpoint an exact location for Atlantis. Is there one?

- Yes. Very precise and thoroughly the Bocksaga put down a tremendous amount of specifications about their whereabouts during ice-time. ALL of that went on in what we call Atlantis. Thats actually part of Bocksagas ABC - and can be found on both the web, but even better on some of the oral tapes. The Atlantis-period was spent in Odenma. As the ice melted this area became larger and larger, until the "big spring" - as of 10.000+ years ago. The following transition time was spent on Gotland, from where the first envoys to the tropical kingdoms started. Later the core-family of the "Atlanteas" moved back to Odenmam while their decessors started populating all of the enormous land of the N Eurasia and Scandinavia. As well as mixing in with all the 10 tropical races simultaniously and with the same intent - to harmonize all populations physically, - so that all people could be guaranteed to be born with the same skills - like linguistical abilities. By and by they could align all these different races/cultures to develop genetics that secured them the physical "likeness" - as to premises and promises for a RE-united mankind.


Quote:
*And, of course, Plato mentions two growing seasons, hard to have in the cold north.

- When did Plato visit Atlantis? Why trust "Plato" to fundamentalistic realms?
And then this; Is it impossible to have "two harwests" in todays Carolina/Florida/Califormia? Or Bretagne/Provence in France?

I have relatives in the very south of Sweden (Skane). They have two seasons there. Still today. Imagine how it was 2.500 years ago - as our climate was 2,8 C warmer. Like they have in Carolina and Bretagne today.

Quote;
*I have a different view of the work. In my view, Atlantis existed in the ocean, the survivors migrated to the north (which sowed the seeds of the stories of this northern Atlantis) and descended towards the Mediterranean after a time.

- Scandinavia did exist "in the Ocean" - as an island some millenias ago. Just look at Phyteas "world map" and it is very clear that he knew Fenno-Scandia - which he visited himself (!). There you will find both written and drawn "evidence" that Skandinavia (Hyperborea) was pictured as an ISLAND in the ocean.

BTW; There is an island called "Wrangel Island" in the Kara Ocean, just east/north-east of the White Sea. Thats the latest spot were the Mammoths lived - before they were all and definitly estinguished, just about 6000 years ago.

The reasons thereof is not really known, yet. The mammoths of Wrangel was actually a very small kind of mammoth too. Not bigger than todays elephants. Scientists believe that the small size made the Wrangel-mammoth did withstand the climatic changes better than the larger species - that died out long before the "ponnies" at Wrangel. There have obviously been ARTICAL elephants - as other artic animals, like the European Bison, etc. - that didnt make it when the artic climate suddenly became significantly warmer, - as the big melting of oceanic ice ended, some 7000+ years ago...

Regards


[This message has been edited by Boreas (edited 10-20-2004).]

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Chronos
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posted 10-20-2004 11:56     Click Here to See the Profile for Chronos     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Boreas,

Very good presentation of the Bock work, as usual. In my opinion, you are it's most articulate champion. There is ample evidence of an ancient north civilization, of that I certainly don't disagree with you. In another thread, Helios and Atalante just discussed the Zebra disc which was discovered in Germany and dates, at the minimum to 1600 b.c. Whether this cvilization was, in fact, Atlantis is another story. I liked your point on the mammoths, that sort of casts a new light on things.

*You stated Scandinavia was an island in the ocean. While it would approach the size of Plato's Atlantis, it's in the North Sea, Atlantis was in the Atlantic. While we can go back and forth about what it actually was meant by the word 'Atlantic,' there is no denying that Atlantis sunk while Scandinavia is above sea level. There is the Dogger Bank, near Holland, but no evidence of a prehistopric civilization has ever been found there to my knowledge.

*When I say that genetically both the Basques and Guanches are distinct from other peoples of Europe, I don't simply mean because they have myths linking themselves to Atlantis, I am speaking genetically. There is a genetic trait that those two people, along with the Berbers of Morocco share in common that is different from the ancient Europeans. Also, a Basque presence in Europe actually dates to 10,000 b.c., to my knowledge, they are the oldest people in Europe, not the Europeans, however they got there.

*The point about the two growing seasons is a little speculative. Even if Sweden has two seasons, I am certain that this is meant to refer to a more tropical comment. Atlantis was also supposed to be "sheltered by the northern winds." Perhaps that isn't a very telling point for you, but if we play with Plato's words too much, to the extent that it affects not only the climate but the geography, time period and other elements, soon we might not even be speaking about Atlantis anymore, but perhaps some other lost civilization.

*I am really surprised at how little weight both you and Rockessence give to the Oera Linde book. Perhaps some of it is mixing apples and oranges, but from what I have read of it, other parts seem to add more credence to what you've been saying. Is the 2123 b.c. date that hard to accept? I have to remind you we don't know for a fact that Atlantis was 9000 years before Solon. Atalante raised an interesting point months ago that 9000 may have just been the largest number that the Greeks knew at the time and that was why it was used. Others seize on this because it was the same time that the Ice Age ended.

I'd like to hear some more specifics about the Atlantis of the Bock Saga. Anymore information about it's government, if it was an empire as Plato suggests and, if so, just what lands it held sway over. Where are the similarities to Plato's account and just where it differs.

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rockessence
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posted 10-20-2004 21:02     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chronos,

I am really loving this discourse...Boreas is a great resource.

I would like to insert here regarding the tropical temperatures you mentioned:

The island of Gotland is composed of microscopic sea creatures which appear only in tropical seas.

The famous Baltic Amber was formed in a tropical period.

The Bock saga describes PA RA DIS ET Paradise-time, eons of time of warm temperatures, ended by the earth's shifting the North Pole from Hel (Hel Sing Ki) 17+ degrees and bringing on Ice-time glaciers, the beginning of Winter/Summer.

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posted 10-20-2004 23:17     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chronos,
We DO know that the artic population came out of the Baltics 9.000+ years ago - and spreading to the east, south and west.

Today we also KNOW that they had spent at least 280.000 years of existence inside the Baltic Ocean.

Meanwhile we have also seen the RETURN of a long lost saga - that makes it possible to actually recreate evident facts about their culture and history. Which is our pre-history.

The saga simply says that Atlantis was A PERIOD today called Ice-Time. As the "Family of Aser" became isolated in the North they developed into the Artical gens that we have today. All over. Please also note that their habitat - in the Bothnic Bay and southern Finland, "was sheltered from the northern winds" - by the Scandinavian mountain ridge, that takes the top of the cold wind from North/Nortwest - where cold winds from the Artic and Greenland ice-sheets are stopped by the Scandinavian west-coast, - where the Boat-people - AFTER Atlantis-time - kept a rather rough existence.

ALL articals are descending from this first artic population. Thats why all Sea-Peoples and Agraricals have a genetic string back to the "highest of all persons", namely their original Family - and the inherited line thereof.

The Aser came out of Atlantis ("All-land-ice") - reaching England and the Mediterranean - a good 9000 years ago.

Today the different branches of these articals - also called "Caucasians" - can be found as far south as the - tempered - Atlas mountains and Etiopian plains, - it is evident that the articals spread their branches and/or their culture all over the subartic hemisphere to.

Which means that the sea-peoples like Guanches and Basques (note; As-Tor-i-as) - all have an origin in the artic. Just like the agricultural Berbers, Vandals and Goths. (See also the relation between the Swedish district "Gota-land" and Spains "Gota-lonia". The absense of the latin - where "land" is spoken "Terra" - tells that the Gothic root of "Catalonia" is definite and real.

But it also reminds us about an advanced cultural being destroyed - by man himself.
Like the Etruscans - who was one of the first populations to get massacred - as Italy saw its first "etnical cleansing".
Since then Rome - and other capitols - have had warlords and tyrrants as heads and rulers.

Later we saw that happen to the Kathars of southern France as well - simultaniously as the confused and criminal culture spread even to the farthest north. By 1008-1050 even the Hyperboreans (Fenno-Scandia) where invaded by "the metally ill men, - hunting down and slaugthering entire populations.

500 years later the same culture reached the Americas. With the same devastating result. Thus there is only fragments left - of the old, ancient and highly developed cultures of both Asia, Europe and Meso-America.

This process have destroyed our concept of eonic time - as well as a vast number of sources to our old, historical knowledge. Not to forget the stigmatisation that still goes - reducing and disexplaining all the social, political and economical standards that played an impact and significance in the old, ancient society.

Today classical history is based on the relevance and significance of the major wars - that SEEM to have gone on forever.
But the truth is that modern archaeology actually states that warfare - as such - never happened before the later bronze age, some 2.500 - 3.000 years ago. It may seem that the "origin" was in the area of India/Persia - some 3.500 years ago. As we may see in the aftermath of Krishnas social "revolution" it was founded on a small but grave misconception, which in turn lead to social confusion and strife. As the royals of the country became involved it all ended up in a all-compassing turmoil - where the ancient realms of "Rigveda" and the ideals "Bhagvad Gita" turns into a "greek drama" - as they develop a culture of war and warfare heroism - as decribed in the "Mahabaratha".

Spreading to China, Persia, Hellas, Egypt, Africa and Rome. Before turning north to Europe and deeper down in Africa. Finally the organised crime we normally recall as "Armed Forces" succeded to cross even the big Atlantic - where it still keeps the indigenious Indians - and a few others - in ave. During the march these generations of soldiers have destroyed more than thousands of generations of craftsmen had produced before.

Thanks to this there is not much left from the grandeur of our ancient antiquety. Except from a few - but growing number of hidden treasures that have been found - buried in the ground. In the saga we have specific informations to how the AS-family, - the worlds oldest - had collected enormous quantities of estethics, such as jewlery and art. ALL of it buried - deeply under ground. The entrance to this underground museum is now dug up. The hallway is already emptied for filling mass - about 70 metres long. But we still have about 30 metres left - before we meet an open space - according to the SIR Georadar.

If that holds water we have actually found the real center of the old Atlantis - and the true origin of all these Atlantean Races...!

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posted 10-21-2004 08:57     Click Here to See the Profile for Chronos     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rockessence, true, Boreas is a great resource and, as I said earlier, the best advocate for the northern Atlantis (although you are quite learned, too).

Boreas, that was very interesting material, but it failed to answer the questions I have posed to you about the government of Atlantis, the extent of it's empire (if it even had one), and how long it actually existed. I am sure you're read Plato as well. Any similarities or differences between these two works?

quote:
We DO know that the artic population came out of the Baltics 9.000+ years ago - and spreading to the east, south and west. Today we also KNOW that they had spent at least 280.000 years of existence inside the Baltic Ocean.

On what is this based, archaeological evidence or the words of the saga?

quote:
The Aser came out of Atlantis ("All-land-ice") - reaching England and the Mediterranean - a good 9000 years ago. Today the different branches of these articals - also called "Caucasians" - can be found as far south as the - tempered - Atlas mountains and Etiopian plains, - it is evident that the articals spread their branches and/or their culture all over the subartic hemisphere to. Which means that the sea-peoples like Guanches and Basques (note; As-Tor-i-as) - all have an origin in the artic. Just like the agricultural Berbers, Vandals and Goths. (See also the relation between the Swedish district "Gota-land" and Spains "Gota-lonia". The absense of the latin - where "land" is spoken "Terra" - tells that the Gothic root of "Catalonia" is definite and real.

I think I became lost in this section. First, are you saying that artifacts of the north have been found as far south as the Atlas Mountains? If so, how do we get from that to conclusive proof that the Berbers, Guanches and Basques were definitively related to this culture? This is a key point and, more than any other I would like you to substantiate that claim.

quote:
But the truth is that modern archaeology actually states that warfare - as such - never happened before the later bronze age, some 2.500 - 3.000 years ago. It may seem that the "origin" was in the area of India/Persia - some 3.500 years ago.

Actually, I have seen evidence presented by both Riven and Helios that ancient war happened much earlier than the ancient Bronze Age. Riven has found evidence of one in Egypt dating to 6482 b.c., Helios, one of around 9000 b.c., if memory serves me correctly.

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posted 11-22-2004 08:16     Click Here to See the Profile for Chronos     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
First Settlement in Egypt
Egypt must now be referred to, and the consideration of this subject should let in a flood of light upon its early history. Although the first settlement in that country was not in the strict sense of the term a colony , it was from the Toltec race that was subsequently drawn the first great body of emigrants intended to mix with and dominate the aboriginal people.

In the first instance it was the transfer of a great Lodge of Initiates. This took place about 100,000 years ago. The golden age of the Toltecs was long past. The first great catastrophe had taken place. The moral degradation of the people and the consequent practice of the "black arts" were becoming more accentuated and widely spread. Purer surroundings for the White Lodge were needed. Egypt was isolated and was thinly peopled, and therefore Egypt was chosen. The settlement so made answered its purpose, and undisturbed by adverse conditions the Lodge of Initiates for nearly 200,000 years did its work.

About 210,000 years ago, when the time was ripe, the Occult Lodge founded an empire--the first "Divine Dynasty" of Egypt--and began to teach the people. Then it was that the first great body of colonists was brought from Atlantis, and some time during the ten thousand years that led up to the second catastrophe, the two great Pyramids of Gizeh were built, partly to provide permanent Halls of Initiation, but also to act as treasure-house and shrine for some great talisman of power during the submergence which the Initiates knew to be impending. Map No. 3 shows Egypt at that date as under water. It remained so for a considerable period, but on its re-emergence it was again peopled by the descendants of many of its old inhabitants who had retired to the Abyssinian mountains (shown in Map No. 3 as an island) as well as by fresh bands of Atlantean colonists from various parts of the world. A considerable immigration of Akkadians then helped to modify the Egyptian type. This is the era of the second "Divine Dynasty" of Egypt--the rulers of the country being again Initiated Adepts.

The catastrophe of 80,000 years ago again laid the country under water, but this time it was only a temporary wave. When it receded the third "Divine Dynasty"--that mentioned by Manetho--began its rule, and it was under the early kings of this dynasty that the great Temple of Karnak and many of the more ancient buildings still standing in Egypt were constructed. In fact with the exception of the two pyramids no building in Egypt predates the catastrophe of 80,000 years ago.

The final submergence of Poseidonis sent another tidal wave over Egypt. This too, was only a temporary calamity, but it brought the Divine Dynasties to an end, for the Lodge of Initiates had transferred its quarters to other lands.

Various points here left untouched have already been dealt with in the Transaction of the London Lodge, "The Pyramids and Stonehenge."

The Turanians who in the first map period had colonized the northern parts of the land lying immediately to the east of Atlantis, occupied in the second map period its southern shores (which included the present Morocco and Algeria). We also find them wandering eastwards, and both the east and west coasts of the central Asian sea were Peopled by them. Bands of them ultimately moved still further east, and the nearest approximation to the type of this race is to-day to be found in the inland Chinese. A curious freak of destiny must be recorded about one of their western offshoots. Dominated all through the centuries by their more powerful Toltec neighbours, it was yet reserved for a small branch of the Turanian stock to conquer and replace the last great empire that the Toltecs raised, for the brutal and barely civilized Aztecs were of pure Turanian blood.

The Semite emigrations were of two kinds, first, those which were controlled by the natural impulse of the race: second, that special emigration which was effected under the direct guidance of the Manu; for, strange as it may seem, it was not from the Toltecs but from this lawless and turbulent, though vigorous and energetic, sub-race that was chosen the nucleus destined to be developed into our great Fifth or Aryan Race. The reason, no doubt, lay in the Mânasic characteristic with which the number five is always associated. The sub-race of that number was inevitably developing its physical brain power and intellect, although at the expense of the psychic perceptions, while that same development of intellect to infinitely higher levels is at once the glory and the destined goal of our Fifth Root Race.

Dealing first with the natural emigrations we find that in the second map period while still leaving powerful nations on the mother continent, the Semites had spread both west and east--west to the lands now forming the United States, and thus accounting for the Semitic type to be found in some of the Indian races, and east to the northern shores of the neighbouring continent, which combined all there then was of Europe, Africa and Asia. The type of the ancient Egyptians, as well as of other neighbouring nations, was to some extent modified by this original Semite blood; but with the exception of the Jews, the only representatives of comparatively unmixed race at the present day are the lighter coloured Kabyles of the Algerian mountain.

The tribes resulting from the segregation effected by the Manu for the formation of the new Root Race eventually found their way to the southern shores of the Central Asian sea, and there the first great Aryan kingdom was established. When the Transaction dealing with the origin of a Root Race comes to be written, it will be seen that many of the peoples we are accustomed to call Semitic are really Aryan in blood. The world will also be enlightened as to what constitutes the claim of the Hebrews to be considered a "chosen people." Shortly it may be stated that they constitute an abnormal and unnatural link between the Fourth and Fifth Root Races {sic}.[1]

The Akkadians, though eventually becoming supreme rulers on the mother continent of Atlantis, owed their birthplace as we have seen in the second map period, to the neighbouring continent-that part occupied by the basin of the Mediterranean

[1. See W. Williamson's The Great Law, pp. 243-5.]

about the present island of Sardinia being their special home. From this centre they spread eastwards, occupying what eventually became the shores of the Levant, and reaching as far as Persia and Arabia. As we have seen, they also helped to people Egypt. The early Etruscans, the Phoenicians, including the Carthaginians and the Shumero-Akkads, were branches of this race, while the Basques of to-day have probably more of the Akkadian than of any other blood which flows in their veins.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/soa/soa25.htm

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Chronos
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posted 11-22-2004 08:19     Click Here to See the Profile for Chronos     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
ATLANTIS IN MYTH
Plato , in his account of the previous golden age of Atlantis , recounts the story of various floods told by the Egyptians to Solon, a comtemporary of Plato's great-great-grandfather. The Greeks, it was said, had little memory of previous ages since their ancestors had been almost wiped out by the floods. After the destruction of Atlantis .... One thousand years later the first Egyptian cities were started.


Peoples living in the mountains survive the great floods that have afflicted civilizations in the past, but are eventually destroyed by fire (i.e. volcanic eruptions). The ancestors of the Egyptians, on the other hand, were in a unique position and not affected by either of these disasters. They therefore have a long memory of ancient history, compared with Solon.
There are several key points in the story of Atlantis which recur in other stories and myths. For a more detailed list see this excellent website on Atlantis.

Pillars (of Wisdom)


1. Proclus tells us that Crantor when visited Egypt the Egyptian priests showed him a golden pillar with hieroglyphs recording the history of Atlantis.


2. Manetho claims that Thoth (identified by the Greeks with Hermes) wrote down the ancient wisdom in pillars.


3. The Egyptian Benben was a pyramid shaped hill, thought to be the prototype for the obelisk (n.b. the capstone of the Giza pyramid is called the benbenet). It is associated with the Benu bird, from which the Greek legend of the Phoenix arose.

Paradise = walled garden


The walled city of Atlantis is also split into four by a canal system. Likewise, the walled garden of Eden had four rivers running through it. Homer claims that Troy was also built on a similar design (it was also submerged by a flood after being destroyed by the greeks).


Many South American cities are based on this design (e.g. Incan Tiahuanaco in Bolivia and Aztecan Tenochtitlan in Mexico). This is said to have given rise the garden style of the Persian kings - Chahar Bagh, with a central pool of life, from which four rivers run in the form of a cross.


The symbol produced by this (a circle split into four) could be related to the ancient Indian symbol of prosperity, the swastika.

Canals


Plato's Atlantis had a vast network of canals used for irrigating the fertile plain from mountain waters. Similar engineering, have been found in the ancient Far East and, in South America. This enables two crops a year to be harvested.


As a seaport they also provided transport of their goods to the world. So, a great naval tradition is needed for any proposed culture as the Atlanteans.


However, after the flood the seas became unnavigable.

Volcanic mountains


A ring of mountains surrounded the plain, providing plentiful water, and a rich supply of metal ores. Moreover, the city of Atlantis was built on an old Volcano. Volcanic ash is very fertile, explaining why so many cultures did, and still do settle near volcanoes.


Some people belief that the flood that submerged the city was due to the melting of the ice sheets at the end of last ice age. This might explain why the whole continent might disappear (it is estimated that the water from the ice raised the sea levels by 90 metres!). However, the flood was supposed to have destroyed Atlantis in a single day and night. This cannot be explained by a rise in sea levels, which was gradual. But, it could have been a Tsunumi or a tidal wave caused by a volcanic eruption. Many of the flood stories in myth also describe fire raining from heaven prior to the deluge.
http://www.angelfire.com/me/biggestmetalfan/atlantismythology.html][/QUOTE]

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Chronos
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posted 11-22-2004 08:24     Click Here to See the Profile for Chronos     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
10000 Last Ice Age draws to a close. Cave burials include tools and ornaments, suggesting primative religion.
10000 to 2000, the originally fertile Sahara became a barrier desert between northern and southern Africa
10000 Holocene Epoch
10000 Neolithic Age, ground stone tools
10000 first bridges, tree trunks secrured across streams, constructed.
10000 Ice sheets in retreat, Mesolithic (Middle Stone Age) hunting cultures emerge.
10000 destruction of Tiahuanaco, Posnansky
10000 more likely Tiahuanaco date
10000 Domestic Age in Fertile Crescent
10000 elephants died out in americas but on gate of sun acc hancock
10000 primitive neanderthals co-existed with modern man in australia
10000 c. end of ice age in Europe caused by gulf stream unblocked by atlantis going under
10000 c. start of record of 373 solar and 832 lunar eclipses by egyptians acc Diogenes Laertius
10000 world population under 1000000, why so low? - ? catastrophe
10000 Capsians lived N. Africa
10000 c. earth suffered recent comettary impact
10000 civilisation in Sumeria
10000 date of early aerial source ? of Piri reis
10000 agriculture discovered
10000 Pyramid attributes to Isis who acc. Manetho reigned here
10000 Manetho's date of Isis and Osiris ruling Egypt
9900 burned Bison-bones reveal Man at Felson nr Lubbock, Texas
9850 acc Plato, sinking of Atlantis via priests of sais
9800 rule of Osiris acc. Manetho
9793 Shelah born
9600 Atlanteans attack Europe to italy and N Africa to libya. acc plato athens fought on alone and won, then both engulfed by floods
9600 beginning of time acc Zoroastrian books
9564 4th convulsion sinks Poseidonia , last bit of Atlantis
9550 Greece covered in fertile soil, acc Plato, via Solon from Sais, unlike Platos time
9500 evidence of cultivation and animal husbandry in N. Syria and eastern Anatolia
9500 earliest copper artifact in Iraqi Kurdistan, evidence of trade in copper long before
9500 earliest example of hammered copper, Greater Zab, Iraqi Kurdistan
9500 in egypt grinding stones and sickle blades used in cereal production are replaced by cruder stone tools of less advanced nile valley cultures
9500 volcanic detruction of Atlantis acc Plato, Schwaller de Lubicz believed egyptian civilisation came from survivers
9500 acc. Brasseur and Le Plongeon, mayan Troano codex refers to destruction of Mu
9350 rule of Seth acc. Manetho
9300 revises date for Kalasasaya by Dr Hans Ludendorff
9300 alt. date Kalasasaya, Tiwanaku, Bolivia , Posnansky
9220 end Age of Leo
9000 Bow and arrow in use, Dog domesticated, Neolithic (New stone age) agriculture in SW Asia
9000 Marmes man in North America, earliest human remains
9000 astroarchaeological date for Nevali Cori, Collins
9000 rule of Horus acc. Manetho
8893 Eber born
8870 c. +-300yrs, RC dating large quantity of bird remains ?bird cult, Nevali Cori, 400yrs before foundation
8800 to 7600, Nevali Cori = under Ataturk resevoir, E. Anatolia
8800 stellar fiducial - Regulus
8700 c. War of the gods. The Great Pyramid is vandalised and replaced by a beacon at Helipolis. The Sphinx is carved to commemorate the end of the war and the first precessional age. Space facilities are built at Jerusalem and in the Sinai peninsula.
8700 c. Jericho and other sites established as defensive fortifications. Stonehenge marked out as an astronomical observatory
8700 Sphinx carved by Enki in commemoration of the war which ended at Giza shortly after 8700
8700 adding reigns of Thoth and successors to Menes c.3100 giving date of war of gods
8700 c. end of Age of Leo
8700 c. Age of Cancer
8683 to 6763 2nd dynasty of gods comprised 12 divine rulers - Thoth, Maat and ten others
8600 to 7400 Initial Woodhenge phase of Stonehenge, 6/1996 English Hertitage
8500 domestication of plants and animals in 'Fertile crescent' of Mesopotamia
8469 Planetoid hits earth acc. Otto H. Much
8400 RC date, occupation Nevali Cori = basic agriculture known
8400 to 7600, curious 'totem pole' statues Nevali Cori
8300 Post-glacial or Flandrian period starts. Warm, Mesolithic hunters and gatherers - Maglemosian, Obanian, Geometric microliths, to current day.
8300 End late glacial period
8300 to date, Post-glacial, Flandrian period. Maglemosians, Blade and trapeze industries, Obanian, etc.. Warm
8100 Building II built, Nevali Cori
8000 Asilili Hoyuk - Turkey
8000 Copper first used, Jericho (now in Jordan), oldest known city is settled.
8000 Sheep domesticated in Iraq, Pottery appears in Japan, Paleolithic hunters of bison in N. America
8000 End of Devensian glacial period
8000 until 7000, Dogs are domesticated. Tools and weapons: flint axes and knives; bows and arrows, bone-tipped spears. Land bridge with Continent disappears.
8000 to AD 1800 Pacific Islands and New Zealand Culture
8000 crude ale made from barley brewed in Mesopotamia.
8000 c. Jericho, enormous fortification walls, vast trenches and gigantic stone tower - unknown enemy
8000 c. earliest evidence of writting in form of pictograms in Jerf el Ahmar, N. Syria
8000 neolithic site RC dating Mureybey, N. Syria
8000 monolithic temple, Nevali Cori
8000 to 4500, Rain in Egypt
8000 Building III, final phase of Nevali Cori
8000 accepted early towns central america
8000 Atlantis destroyed acc. Steiner
8000 c. Sinai space centre was constructed following the decommissioning of the Pyramid
8000 c. fortified town of Jericho built in the Middle East
8000 Jericho built, no-one can explain why
8000 c. RC dating circle of wooden posts at Stonehenge
7873 Peleg born , Peleg means 'Division', Gen 10:25 'in his time the earth was divided'
7600 to 5750, introduction of fired and painted poittery into E. Anatolia
7500 Britain increasing warmth, until 5500
7500 to 7000,stone beads with drilled holes,Ashikli Hoyuk, S. Turkey
7500 c. clay tokens used for bartering in Kurdistan foothills
7500 to 7000, occupation of Abu Hureyra and Ashikli Hoyuk
7400 Nibiru returned to heart of solar system
7200 copper use Cayonu, Turkish Kurdistan
7121 Aztec 4th Age
7113 3rd dynasty of thirty demi-gods reigned to 3113
7100 stellar fiducial - Praesaepe
7100 start of Manetho's Kings List of years before Menes
7000 Dwellings are built of bricks in middle east as well as wheat cultivation
7000 traces of Malacite ? trade in cosmetics as not native were found in N syria/E anatolia
7000 Schoch, dating advanced before scientific establishment for sphinx
7000 c. Date of mapping of south pole acc. Hapgood, early date
7000 c. horses die out in Americas
7000 c. 200 pairs of woven fibre sandals , Lamos Cave, E. Nevada
7000 to 2500 Neolithic Subpluviel, wet climatic period in Egypt
7000 to 5000, Robert Schoch dating of Sphinx by weathering effect
6973 Reu born
6750 occupation of Jarmo on Lesser Zab in Iraqi Kurdistan
6500 Earliest dug-out canoes
6500 Bronze Age in Fertile Crescent
6500 c. Catal Huyuk in Turkey, modern weave carpets
6500 c. famous Jericho skulls with clay and shells ?egyptian faces before egypt
6500 Catal Huyuk one of earliest known settlements, Anatolia
6360 Oldest of Chichuro Black Mummies, app. date. Wore black scultured mask and virtually remodelled body as a sculpture
6073 Serug born
6000 c. The Garden of Eden
6000 stellar fiducial - Castor and Pollux
6000 cultivation of crops known worldwide
6000 date refered to in vedas
6000 world population 5000000
6000 to 5000, probable date of building of great pyramid acc Alford
6000 to 4000 period during which Antartica covered by ice
6000 c. oldest surviving trees begin to grow, Bristlecone pine and Giant Sequoia
6000 Knossos thriving centre acc Atlas of Ancient Archaeology by transformed 3000 yrs later by metal working
5863 Shem dies
5763 Arphaxad dies
5750 to 4500, Halaf culture, Kurdistan
5600 Flooding of Black Sea basin, Pitman and Ryan
5600 c. land inundated by the Black Sea flood cataclysm
5560 Creation of World - Trithemius
5560 Adam
5500 Britain, climatic optimum, Neolithic colonists.
5500 Eridu established in lower iraq on Persian Gulf
5500 c. The Start of the Great Migration
5500 to 4750, Jarmo, sophisticated drilling techniques
5500 Municipal society in Sumer
5500 to 3800, Badarian culture Egypt
5500 to 4500, Halaf culture in Mesopotamia
5450 to 2500, era of Saharan rock and cave paintings, as in the Tassili
5431 Seth
5400 to 5000, earliest grape cultivation at Hajji Firuz Tepe in Zagros Mountains in Iranian Kurdistan
5326 Enosh
5236 Kenan
5166 Mahalalel
5113 Nahor born
5101 Jared
5000 Sumerians established in Lower Mesopotamia, Boomerang in use in Australia
5000 Oldest mummies made Chinchuro, Chili, nr Arica. All people mummified. 96 mummies, lived on fish, lots of childbirth, repaied mummies. Dr Vivienne Stannard
5000 Irrigation canals in Iraq, Corn cultivation in Mexico,Copper spear points in N. America
5000 Teratornis merriami, wingspan 3.3m died out, after Teratornis incredibilis 5.1m
5000 c. Chincoros culture in Northern Chile; mummification techniques
5000 Egyptian culture already well established in the Nile Valley
5000 Ancient Chinese civilisation
5000 earlier scissors of two blades of bronze with spring used
5000 Agriculture reintroduced after vanishing in egypt in 9500 in Palestine
5000 c. Enoch the Builder-King
5000 world population 10000000
5000 to 3570, Ubaidian culture in Mesopotamia
5000 to 4000, c. sites of Hierakonpolis and Naqada established
5000 RC accurate until now +/- 25-50 years error
4939 Enoch
4883 Peleg dies
4874 Methuselah
4860 Shelah dies
4800 world population 20000000
4713 start of Julian period cycle
4713 start date of runic calender, although only used c. 0AD acc Dr L. E. Maistrov of USSR
4687 Lamech
4631 Adam
4600 to 4300, tell Arpachiyah, Iraqi Kurdistan
4574 Enoch
4519 Seth
4505 Noah
4500 Neolithic Jomon culture flourishes in Japan, Rock paintings in Sahara
4500 c. Stone Age ends in Egypt, as copper is first used for ornaments and weapons
4500 Honeybee domesticated in EurAsia and Africa
4500 City of the Metal-Workers
4500 Byblos possessed a thriving township
4500 c. pre-phoenician culture navigated mediterranian and Atlantic coast beyong Gibraltar
4500 to 4000, Ubaid culture inhabites Kurdish highlands
4500 Kurgans of Russian steppe migrate and advance wheel culture.
4500 Imhotep, architect of Zoser Pyramid considered first physician on record (date ?)
4421 Enosh
4360 c. Age of Taurus
4326 Kenan
4271 Mahalalel
4250 stellar fiducial - Crab Nebula
4241 egyptian calender starts
4240 key date Sirius calendar acc J. A. West
4232 Adam Born
4228 step 1 ***ans Phoenic cycle
4223 Terah born
4139 Jared
4102 Seth born
4071 man created acc. Bible
4071 Adam
4071 Creation
4068 Adam
4068 Creation
4054 Adam
4054 Creation
4050 alt posnansky data Kalasasaya Tiwanaku Bolivia
4050 to 2200 Negroid slaves used by gods to engage in bronze production at Tiwanaku
4050 Tiwanaku is established as a centre for the production of bronze. the first use of Chavin de Huantar and Teotihuacan for mineral processing may also date to this era.
4050 Kalasasaya aligned ? with sun
4005 Shem
4004 1530hrs on 23/10, Archbishop Ussher in 1650, Creation of Earth
4004 Adam
4000 Neolithic and Bronze age Europe
4000 c. to 1500, Old Copper Culture around North American Great Lakes
4000 c. Domestication of horses on the steppes north of the Black Sea
4000 first communal baths appear
4000 c. The Island of the Two Waters
4000 Great Flood of southern Mesopotamia
4000 Bronze alloy discovered, horse domesticated
4000 c. egypt starts to unit as early as now acc. Turin papyrus mentions 9 dynasties before Menes
4000 end of warm period antartica
4000 technically accomplished Naqada culture makes swan necked vasdes
4000 flourishing, worldwide maritime civilisation , acc. Hapgood
4000 to 2000, building of Tiahuanaco acc Rolf Muller
4000 first ploughsa in middle east
4000 wheel used for throwing pots then other uses evolved
4000 date refered to in vedas
4000 start of Freemason calendar with egyptuian roots - Anno Lucis A.L. 'in the year of light' - star Vela X exploded disc Dr Anthony Hewish, 1968
4000 to 3760 ? Vela X explosion as start of new age, plausable date for 2nd pyramid. sphinx and temples
4000 to 3500, Amratian culture Egypt
4000 archaeological evidence points to age of Abydos
4000 sacred falcon mounds at Abydos and Hierakonpolis,, possible origin of Dendera
4000 rivers flow freely in Antartica prior to this date
4000 Antartic ice cap thought to have formed
4000 city of Susa on route from Zagros mountains tin mines, Kassite territory, to Mesopotamia
3963 Adam
3963 Creation
3952 Enos born
3943 Reu dies
3942 Seth
3939 Seth
3925 Seth
3910 Lamech
3905 Arpachshad
3905 Great Flood (alt dating)
3905 Methuselah
3900 Age of Civilization and the great cities of Sumer. Introduction of Earthling kingship of Adamae. Age of the hu-mannan (mighty man).
3900 Era of Atabba and Nin-khawa (Adam end Eve.)., commencement of Star Fire ritual.
3875 Seth
3870 Shelah
3862 Cainan born
3840 Eber
3837 Enosh
3834 Enosh
3834 Seth
3820 Enosh
3809 ? unreliable date for motar in great pyramid RC
3806 Peleg
3800 Sailing boats built in Egypt, City states evolving in Sumeria (S. Mesopotamia)
3800 Al Ubaid built, grapes grown in Middle East, Painted pottery in SE Europe
3800 Collapsable huts in C. Asia, Neolithic replaces Mesolithic along Med. coast
3800 Sledges in use in N. EurAsia, Earliest known map of Euphrates river on clay tablet.
3800 gods from Planet X made contact with Summerians acc. Sitchin
3800 Zodiac appeared in Sumer
3800 Ur-Nammu's ziggurat dedicated to Enki. Calender begins at Nippur
3800 to 3450 Tower of Babel incident
3800 onwards, a series of developments created a new elite of civilised men, beginning in Sumer
3800 c. Civilisation is given to mankind in Sumer
3800 Nibiru returned to heart of solar system
3792 Mahalaleel born
3776 Reu
3770 Enosh
3760 Jewish calender begins
3760 Jewish date for Adam end Eve
3760 c. rennovations to great pyramid by Priests of Giza
3760 summerian calendar established in Nippur, now Jewish calender
3750 Bronze alloy in limited use in Egypt and Sumeria, painted fabric in Egypt
3750 Cretan ships active in E. Med.,Harps and flutes in Egypt,Summerians settle site of Babylon
3747 Kenan
3744 Serug
3744 Kenan
3730 Kenan
3729 Enosh
3727 Jared born
3714 Nahor
3700 End of Middle Stone Age
3700 Start of New Stone Age
3700 Dental surgery was carried out in Egypt
3700 Lockyers dating of Karnak temple
3685 Terah
3680 Kenan
3677 Mahalalel
3674 Mahalalel
3660 Mahalalel
3650 Amratian city of Hierakonpolis, oldest known kiln in Egypt
3639 Kenan
3615 Abram
3612 Jared
3610 Mahalalel
3609 Jared
3595 Jared
3573 Eber dies
3569 Mahalalel
3567 Peleg
3566 Nahor
3565 Enoch born
3555 Noah
3550 Sumerian and Akkadian civilisations
3545 Jared
3537 Reu
3516 Sodom and Gommoarrah destoryed (alt dating)
3514 Serug
3504 Jared
http://groups.msn.com/Mythus/worldhistorypart3.msnw

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Akata
Member

Posts: 798
From: Maribor,Gorenska,Slovenian
Registered: May 2003

posted 11-23-2004 01:56     Click Here to See the Profile for Akata     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
plato was wrong about the date the capital
of atlantis sunken 15.000 bc,and the giza
complex builed by the survivors of atlantis
togher with thoth the atlantean the atlantean king who founed new state called
khem,the giza plato is maschine to remind
the other come after us,that we only live
once,the nollage and wisdom of thoth is in
that maschine,only a atlantean can see it
to humans sub species of my own advanced homo sapiens,they can see that dont have
4 lobs ,only 2 lobs in the brain,we have
left back lobe for mind power,and right
back lobe for willpower than humans dont
have,we are evolved version of the humans
instate of have 2 lobes we 4 of them,the front one work like in 2 human one left and
right,our iq is larger than of a human
we range iq from 200 to 200000000
i have 180000000 iq

we are very advaned race,to this day the survivors of atlantean empire live and
trive,as the atlantean nations,maybe
the capital sunken,but thank to thoth
we have new one in khem...........
the colonys of atlantean empire
joined toghter after the sinking
of atlantean capital near azores
and someone steps of our homeland
that is azores,we get angry and
go to war normaly,but i now that
there are allays other options
only to take the war in the last
if there are no options left
i dont want make my fathers
mistake again ,not me......

for glory of atlantean empire
and all fallen atlanteans
rest in peace amen......

one 1 min of quied for all
restless soul of atlanis

------------------
--For The Pride Of --
---Atlantean Race---
---And For our Noble--
-----Ensters-----------
-AkatariusTheWiseOne--


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Helios
Member

Posts: 325
From: Rhodes (an island near Cyprus)
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 11-23-2004 02:31     Click Here to See the Profile for Helios     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting addition, Akata, and hopefully a relevant one. Welcome back, Chronos, I can see that you noticed that the forums have finally been fixed, too. Best regards to the Webmaster for finally settling this. I was beginning to think it would never be settled.

Manetho has long been listed as a source of the god-kings of ancient Egypt. However, some of the rest of what you posted needs to be sorted through for accuracy. There are many Internet enthusiasts who seem to jump to conclusions in order to link all manner of things to Atlantis. I think it important, whenever possible, to go back to the original source and verify what they actually said about Atlantis, rather than accept what a third party says, second-hand. Enjoyed the timeline, by the way.

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atalante
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Posts: 1301
From: Tucson AZ USA
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posted 11-23-2004 10:53     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Zoroaster's historical and religious info (beginning at 9600 BC) was written on a collection of 21,000 cow-hides.
But Alexander the Great burned this entire body of Zoroatrian information when he conquored Persia.

Here is a link which explains this: http://www.askwhy.co.uk/judaism/0270ZoroastInf.html

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atalante
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Posts: 1301
From: Tucson AZ USA
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posted 11-23-2004 10:56     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Some of the cities which were founded by Neith/Anath/Anahita around 9600 BC have been excavated recently. These communities of "the Goddess" had paintings, sculpture, domesticated plants and animals, and stone pillars decorated with floral and faunal reliefs.
Two of these communities are discussed in this link: http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=242


Amazing ancient Gobekli Tepe and Nevali Cori (9600 BC)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mesopotamia is usually regarded as the birthplace of civilisation - but it wasn't. It was the birthplace of consistant civilisation. The actual birth of civilisation as we know it is recorded in Turkey. In fact, I'm astonished to stumble on this topic after only a brief reference to a book review in New Scientist.

Forget about Erich Von Daniken, Conspiracy Theory, and Atlanteans for a moment. Let me introduce to you Gobekli Tepe.

I'll risk quoting from other sites, as I don;t want to lose either the references, or the links.

The first link is to this site: http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/1999/126/archaeology.html
Quote:
An ancient place of worship--a cult site carbon-dated to the second half of the 9th millennium B.C.--Gobekli Tepe is as good a point as any to begin a diverse archaeological tour of Turkey, a country astonishingly rich with the remains of scores of civilizations and empires stretching from caveman days to the early 20th century. Put simply, Gobekli Tepe--older than the renowned Anatolian city of Catalhoyuk--is where some of our hunter-gatherer ancestors (who were just starting to settle down and organize into societies) first created sophisticated art for ritual purposes.

"This place is as important as the discovery of 14,000 B.C. cave art in France," says Harald Hauptmann, the team leader and director of the German Archaeological Institute in Istanbul. Gobekli Tepe reflects what the experts say is a turning point from the Epipaleolithic to the Early Neolithic era in upper Mesopotamia--that is, the time when early man was just beginning to control nature, before the advent of food production, until the first domestication of plants and animals. "In this site and the one at Nevali Cori, 45 km northeast of here," says Hauptmann, "we have found an art we never knew before--not on cave walls but in public buildings, with sculpture and painted haut-reliefs [sculpted stone panels]. What we have ascertained is that art is not something someone just invented one day, like the wheel or fire. It has always been an active part of the human psyche, since the very beginning."

In each archaeological digging season, hundreds if not thousands of new and often startling discoveries are made by Turkish and international teams at scores of excavations, providing insights into the earliest days of humanity. "Anatolian Turkey is perhaps the most richly diverse archaeological site anywhere. It reaches from Paleolithic [early Stone Age] to Ottoman," says Oscar White Muscarella, a senior conservator at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, who has been assisting a Turkish team excavating a 9th to 7th century B.C. site once inhabited by Urartians--Bronze Age people who lived near Lake Van, close to the Iranian frontier.

Archaeology today, on the cusp of the 21st century, is not a treasure hunt. It is a painstaking search for cultural context. Sometimes, too, it is a race against time as aspects of modern life--the growing demand for energy and food by an expanding population, and the avarice of private art collectors willing to break the law--put new pressures on old sites. Uncovering clues to how ordinary people lived and how societies developed--what Marie-Henriette Gates, an American professor of archaeology and Bronze Age specialist at Bilkent University in Ankara calls "blue-collar archaeology"--now takes precedence over "golden bowls." The experts' focus has evolved from treasure hunting to people hunting, from the bowls themselves to what was eaten from them, and why. Their findings are prompting revision of the idea that Anatolia was simply a corridor for migrant peoples, rather than a font of civilization in its own right, populated by locals knowledgeable about the wheel, communication, art, agriculture, metallurgy and much more. The bounty is rich in Turkey, and any summary of the Anatolian cornucopia of truly significant discoveries barely scratches the surface. In recent years, for example, the soil has yielded the following:

At Gobekli Tepe, 15 km northeast of the city of Sanliurfa, stand four megalithic limestone pillars, 7 m tall and weighing perhaps 50 tons each. Two of them bear the image of a snarling lion defending what Hauptmann believes to be a cult sanctuary or shrine. Erected without the aid of domesticated animals 6,000 years before giant structures were built in Pharaonic Egypt, the pillars suggest that early Neolithic workers knew how to use poles, boards and pulleys to handle huge stones. Hauptmann's site also features a unique floor relief of a squatting woman--perhaps giving birth--reliefs of a variety of animals, and a field of flint chips, indicating the site also hosted a fairly sophisticated tool- and weapon-producing operation.

A rich collection of small limestone sculptures and clay figures was found at Nevali Cori, as well as life-size limestone figures, providing for the first time an idea of how people in the area worshiped 8,000 years before the birth of Christ. The larger work is animistic, some of it featuring humans and animals in carvings resembling totem poles. The masterpiece of the site is a sculpture of a female head grasped in the talons of a bird. Another, male, head is shaved, with a snake positioned at the back like a braid.


The subject Nevali Cori is also covered on a traveller site here: http://www.theculturedtraveler.com/Archives/JAN2003/Turkey.htm

Quote:
The Neolithic Period was an era of major changes in human life. They had such an effect on people’s lifestyle that the period is often referred to as the Neolithic Revolution. The greatest advancement, the invention of agriculture, enabled people to settle in one place rather than rove as hunter-gatherers. By cultivating the land, people were able to live in the same location year-round, which led to establishment of the first planned and organized settlements. Since they needed to remain near their fields in order to produce food, people abandoned caves and other natural shelters and began living in dwellings they had constructed themselves.

Asiatic Turkey was the locale for many significant developments in human life. Many Neolithic cultures flourished there and left behind them sites that give rich clues to their lifestyles and beliefs. Most of them are found in the Central and Southeast regions of Anatolia.

Catalhoyuk, near the modern city of Konya. is the first planned urban development in the world dating back to 7,000 B.C. and covering an area of 32 acres. Each house shared common walls with its neighbors and its entrance was on the roof. The walls, made out of mud-brick and presenting a solid, windowless aspect wherever they faced the city’s outside, formed an effective, continuous defensive rampart. Inside, the house walls were covered with paintings that depicted rich scenes of nature and wildlife. Painted relief sculptures, especially in the form of the Mother Goddess, were popular. Her popularity pointed to a possibly matriarchal society. (Good examples of these sculptures can be seen at the Ankara Anatolian Ancient Civilizations Museum.)

Hacilar is another important center in Central Anatolia, near the modern city of Burdur. There is evidence there of agriculture dating back 9,000 years. Archaeologists have found considerable amounts of wheat, barley and lentils in the houses at Hacilar, giving clues to people’s diet and the history of domesticated foods.

Catalhoyuk and Hacilar are also considered two of the earliest clay pottery centers. The existence of pottery is one very important indirect benefits of the sedentary lifestyle created by the ability to produce food year-round and even amass surpluses. Assured of their ability to eat, and able to feed more than just the people who produced food, these stone-age city dwellers had the opportunity and time invent and create.

Recent excavations near the modern city of Urfa revealed very important facts about the advancements of the Neolithic Period. The first settled life for humans in terms of advanced agricultural knowledge and animal feeding was originally dated at 9,500 B.C. by archaeologists in the "Levant area" of present-day Israel and Lebanon. However, researchers are suggesting that the date should be moved backwards since ancient urban centers around Urfa in upper Mesopotamia now qualify as Neolithic.

The first human settlements there probably took place around the Southeastern Anatolian cities of Urfa and Diyarbakir. Excavations at one of these sites, Nevali Cori, revealed clues that the Neolithic Age had started between 12,000 and 10,000 B.C. in this area, at least 500 years earlier than at Catalhoyuk and Hacilar.. The temple architecture found there gives important clues about the beliefs of the people in that era, as well as their architectural ability. Their use of T-shaped pillars showed an advanced knowledge of how to build strong, load-bearing structures.

The other important site, Gobekli Tepe, shows similarities with Nevali Cori and provides support that earlier advancements in human life had taken place in this region. Rooms excavated at this site have revealed stone pillars decorated with floral and faunal reliefs.


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Chronos
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From: various
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posted 11-23-2004 11:27     Click Here to See the Profile for Chronos     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Helios,

Thank you for the welcome back. Hopefully, we can resume the study of Greek mythology, both here and in the Ancient Mysteries thread, if you're still interested in it. What specific part of what I posted do you object to?

Akata,

Interesting material - as usual.

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Chronos
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From: various
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posted 11-23-2004 11:39     Click Here to See the Profile for Chronos     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Atalante,

(I hope you're feeling better, by the way).

It appears as if, once again, yourself, Riven and I are covering the same ground. I have to agree with you that, at the moment anyway, the origin point for civilization points to Turkey. Not just Catal Hoyuk, but in retrospect, the other ancient findings that you presented that have just been unearthed there, as well as other similarities we have covered here in the past. Noah's Ark is said to have rested on Mt. Ararat. The Sea People had many of their cities in Turkey. Tales of the Egyptian triumphs over the Sea People seemed to suggest that they came from a homeland vanished beneath the sea. Even Robert Sarmast's findings off of Cyprus are in the general region of Turkey, could have some bearing on both the Sea People and Atlantis (though admittedly, the timelines might not align), and Eden could indeed be the same as Atlantis, vanished beneath the waves. The Pillars of Hercules might well have been the Straits of Dardenelle.

I don't think that an eastern Mediterranean origin for Atlantis as opposed to an Atlantic one lessens it's importance. I do think that some of the others here might not yet be ready to accept an Atlantis in that vicinity, though.

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Helios
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Posts: 325
From: Rhodes (an island near Cyprus)
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 11-23-2004 22:05     Click Here to See the Profile for Helios     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Balanced on one side, we have the Berbers, the Guanches, the Basques and many traditions of ancient people all stating that there was once a land mass of decent size in the Atlantic. We have reports, yet very few pictures, of sunken cities off the coasts of Spain, Morocco, and others further west into the Atlantic. We have bathymetric maps that clearly show that there was once a raised area of the Atlantic.

On the other side, we have a place that clearly held one of the origins of civilization. We have Catal Hoyuk, we have sonar readings stating artificial structures off the coast of Cyprus. We have the remnants of Troy and other ancient settlements. This area was also said to have been the starting point for Phillistines and the other Sea Peoples.

It is clear to me now that the choice might now well be narrowed down to one or the other.

However, somehow I still place my faith in the Atlantic, no matter what evidence there may be to the contrary at the moment.


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atalante
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From: Tucson AZ USA
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posted 11-23-2004 23:16     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Helios, Chronos,

My post earlier today was trying to demonstrate that Neith (=Athena?) had indeed founded some cities around 9600 BC. (As proposed in Plato's version of Atlantis.)

Egyptian mythology suggests that the gods came to Egypt from SOMEWHERE, and this line of reasoning suggests that some of the Egyptian gods came from Turkey.

But the Atlanteans themselves were not being discussed.

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Helios
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From: Rhodes (an island near Cyprus)
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posted 11-24-2004 00:02     Click Here to See the Profile for Helios     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I understood the point you were trying to make, Atalante, but, in the final analysis, we are all still trying to locate Atlantis here. The recent findings of Mr. Samarst, as well as other evidence that has been mounting over the years all seems to point towards Turkey as perhaps the point where civilization (and, by implication, Atlantis as well), originated.

It's interesting how many things have originated in and around Turkey: Noah's Ark, Troy, the Sea People, the findings off of Cyprus, Catal Huyok, there is even a theory that the myth of Jason and the Golden Fleece also took place in and around Turkey, and the Black Sea.

Perhaps the lost land of the Sea People is even one and the same as the sunken structures off of Cyprus. As I said, I prefer the Alantic Ocean theory, and the dialogues are unmistakable in placing it there, but many of the other details seem to be falling together neatly (if Cyprus does prove to be true).

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Akata
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From: Maribor,Gorenska,Slovenian
Registered: May 2003

posted 11-26-2004 13:32     Click Here to See the Profile for Akata     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
atlantean refereces pre data plato
the capital sunken 9.000 bc

------------------
--For The Pride Of --
---Atlantean Race---
---And For our Noble--
-----Ensters-----------
-AkatariusTheWiseOne--


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jshsitar
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Posts: 68
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: Dec 2004

posted 12-08-2004 00:33     Click Here to See the Profile for jshsitar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In an earlier post a researcher claimed a link between Atala and atlantis.

Here is an update on Atala;
http://www.innerlab.com/atmanet/ing/theoglos/lo-lz.htm

"Satya-loka is the 'world of truth and reality,' the realm in which live divine beings and Nirvanins. It is the highest state of consciousness possible to a human being, the loftiest Samadhi. Its atmosphere extends into regions far beyond our ken, out into the fields of infinitude. Its nether pole, Atala, is the first suggestion of a place, the first something of existence.

It is called a-tala, 'not-a-place,' because it is of such spiritual-ethereal matter that it can scarcely be considered a place. A Lost Soul or one who follows the Downward Path, suffers final annihilation in Atala. "


So this Atala is not connected to Atlas, Italy or Atlantis

Unless you hold that Atlantis is "not-a-place"

I think that Atala also means "bottomless"

A=without
tala=bottom or underside

i.e. hell

The beings who reside there do not eat or sleep/dream because they are dead

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jshsitar
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posted 12-08-2004 10:58     Click Here to See the Profile for jshsitar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

The weakness of the fundamentalist interpretation of Atlantis is based largely on ignorance and an unwillingness to consider information that is readily available to all! In this discussion I am using the word fundamentalist to refer to proponents of theories on Atlantis who hold that Plato's account is accurate.

Let's consider the 9500 B.C. figure that is much touted as the year Atlantis sank. I think this figure is arbitrary and misleading. The year 9500 B.C. is clearly prior to times when there were written records of life on this planet. Therefore any information from this era must have been handed down by an oral tradition. Assuming 33 year generations (for sake of argument) and 9000 years time, then this story must have been passed down through the oral tradition for approximately 200 generations before writing came about and thereafter for another 100 generations till the time of Plato. ( I believe that Solon who is believed to be in the chain of story transfer, lived about 5 or 6 generations before Plato and the two men may have been related) Given the chain of humans and length of time over which the story was allegedly handed down I believe there was ample occasion for details to have been changed. This includes years, locations and facts. For this reason I do not take Plato's account on face value.

If we examine the story objectively, the first thing to throw out is the year 9500 B.C. and the second thing to go is probably the Atlantic location. Phrases such as "beyond the pillars of Hercules" can also mean "once upon a time" or "in an unknown land." They serve to indicate that Plato did not know where his Atlantis was located. Other statements on the sinking of the "continent" are also suspect.

Putting together the remainder of Plato's information and using research in classical studies and geology we can come up with a few more probable scenarios. Personally I think the Minoan one of about 1600 B.C. make most sense.

The following is taken from Microsoft ENCARTA 98
"Prehistory, time before written records appeared, which occurred about 3000 BC".
Prehistory includes the Stone Age, the Bronze Age, and the Iron Age. Societies without written records preserved their history through stories and myths passed orally from one generation to another. This remembered narrative disappeared when a society died out. The nature and events of prehistory can be partially reconstructed through archaeology, which examines the material evidence left behind by the peoples of the past: their dwellings, tools, and everyday materials, as well as their great monuments and works of art.

The society described by Plato in his depictions of Atlantis is clearly not a Stone Age one but rather a Bronze Age one;
Here is some info on Bronze Ages taken from ENCARTA

"Bronze Age, the time in the development of any human culture, before the introduction of iron, when most tools and weapons were made of bronze. Chronologically, the term is of strictly local value, for bronze came into use, and was again replaced by iron, at different times in different parts of the world. It generally succeeds a culture's Copper Age.
By 3000 BC bronze began to be used in Greece. In China the Bronze Age did not begin until 1800 BC. The pre-Columbian civilizations of the Americas had no bronze technology until about AD 1000."
(Of relevance is the mention of 3000 B.C. as the era when Bronze came to be used by the Greeks)
Further form ENCARTA:
Minoan Crete and Mycenaean Greece were major late-Bronze-Age civilizations. The Bronze Age there ended about 1200 BC, after which iron technology became common.
Minoans, Atlantians, Bronze..
."Bronze Age," Microsoft® Encarta® 98 Encyclopedia. © 1993-1997 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
."Prehistory," Microsoft® Encarta® 98 Encyclopedia. © 1993-1997 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

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atalante
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posted 12-08-2004 11:40     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jshsitar,

That was an interesting suggestion. Plato visted India when he was young. My copy of the Tibetan Book of the Dead, translated by Evans-Wentz, lists the name Plato on 8 pages in its index. Consequently, there is good reason to believe that Plato obtained some of the basic novelties in his so-called Platonic philosophy from earlier oriental literature.

The Greek word utopia is an adequate translation for a "place which is not a place".

The link which you cited contains additional info which can be regarded as relevant to both the general topic of Atlantis, and more specifically relevant to why Plato connected Poseidon to a "utopia" of Atlantis. This info involves the "pole star", which many ancient peoples recognized (and a hypothetical anti-polestar which might exist below sealevel).

quote from: http://www.innerlab.com/atmanet/index.cfm?artID=846

Svar-loka is the 'heaven world' wherein the human being enjoys the after-death state of Devachan. It is the state in which a human being unfolds his higher aspirations. It is the abode of the higher Elementals, and its atmosphere extends to the pole star. Its nether pole is Talatala. This word is a compound of tala-atala, meaning 'a place not a place' and implying that this place is more of a tala than those above it but is not yet a fully substantial tala. A man who centers his mind and energies in the gratification of his senses is in Talatala.
endquote

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jshsitar
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posted 12-09-2004 17:23     Click Here to See the Profile for jshsitar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think the connection between Plato and the Tibetan Book of the Dead are more philosophical and mystical rather than historical. Buddhist and Hindu philosophy bears the imprint of Gnostic wisdon, which I think is universal. By this I mean it is a type of wisdom or knowledge that anyone who searches for it seriously, will find.

I think the suggested link between Atala and Atlantis is far-fetched. It is true that if we move the discussion away from historical facts and into the realm of spirituality there is a semblance between Eastern ideas of Heaven (Satya Loka) and Utopia. I do not know if anyone is claiming Atlantis was a Utopia. My recollection of the debate is that it may have been an ideal society that was corrupted. There are obviously some parallels with spirituality...

Satya Loka---Utopia------Ideal Atlantis
vs
Atala--------hell--------Corrupted Atlantis

This may have been the point Plato was trying to make...irrespective of whether or not he knew of an historical Atlantis. This has echos of the Republic.

[This message has been edited by jshsitar (edited 12-09-2004).]

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Gwen Parker
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posted 12-09-2004 22:50     Click Here to See the Profile for Gwen Parker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You do interesting work, Jshsitar. I like your point about how oral tradition couldn't possibly sustain a story as detailed as Atlantis was for nine thousand years. But maybe it wasn't really for nine thousand years..?

Take Plato literally? Maybe we shouldn't, but I'm betting it's the minor details that are in err on this, not the major ones.

Why does everyone always use the Bronze Age details to claim he was writing science fiction? Of course he describes a Bronze Age society, that's what he was living in, wasn't it? I'm betting it was less advanced rather than more advanced than they say, maybe more recent than the 9000 b.c date they always place it in, too.

I think what throws people off the most when it comes to other references to Atlantis is that they expect them all to be named "Atlantis." In Critias, though, it's mentioned that Solon changed the names from Egyptian to Greek names so whatever Atlantis was, it probably wasn't really named Atlantis.

*the God-kings of ancient Egypt (rulers in 10,000 b.c.,Manetho) were called Auriteans, sounds similar to Atlantis, doesn't it?

*Atland (the Oera Linda Book), Atlandis (Bock Saga) and Aztlan (Mayan) also may be referring to the same place. Each refers to a vanished homeland for their people, although the locations vary from one another.

*The most ancient people of western Spain, the Guanches and the Basques, have legends of originating from a homeland that vanished beneath the waves, one to the west.

*Crete doesn't match Plato's geography by any stretch. It's an easy out for academics who don't want to do the research into what, for them anyway, is just a myth. It does, however fit into the idea that Plato gave the Atlantis story some "embellishments" as mentioned by Plutarch. What better place to get the idea for embellishments than an island nation just at his back door? I'm betting that the "Cult of the Bull" idea came from there at least, as the walls of Knossos are decorated with Bull paintings

*The Sea People also couldn't have been Atlantis either. They were a loose confederation of city states in eastern Turkey. Atlantis was a large empire, ruled by a king, beyond the Pillars, in the Atlantic. It either has to be in the Atlantic, or it's not Atlantis, you ask me.

*What does match the geography? Not Cuba, the Altiplano or America, they are all too far away. The eastern Atlantic matches it perfectly, though. It's not as deep as the rest of the Atlantic and it is even said that sunken cities have been found there (though, from what I've been reading here, getting photos of them is hard)

One last note: Critias and Timaeus have the look of Plato's retelling of Greek history. It wouldn't seem right to insert something he knew to be false in there, invoke Solon, and then keep claiming it's "true," time and again. In other words, I think he meant for us to take Atlantis and the war between Athens and Atlantis literally, even if the details might be off some.

Underwater archaeology will turn up something really interesting in that area someday, I'm sure of it.

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Gwen Parker
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posted 12-09-2004 22:52     Click Here to See the Profile for Gwen Parker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Antillia was mentioned earlier. You know which island nation matches Antillia in geography? Taiwan, no lie - it's shaped horizontally, has the seven rivers and everything. Maybe the ancients travelled the seas a lot more than we give them credit for, or maybe, it's just a wild coincidence..?

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jshsitar
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posted 12-10-2004 01:37     Click Here to See the Profile for jshsitar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Regarding the Minoan/Atlantis theory it is my position that Platos description is a collection of hearsay. Much of his infomation was derivied from oral history relating to the demise of nearby Minoan civilisation. I have mentioned that the oral tradition could not maintain an accurate account for 9000 years (approximately 300 generations) and in a similar way accounts of the demise of the Minoan civilisation were distorted over the 1200 or so years prior to Plato. For this reason particular "facts" or "descriptions" can all be taken as suspect. What Plato is writing about is Minoan civilsation as filtered down through oral history. I think that given the unparalled eruption of Thera in Santorini, this devastating event was handed down through oral history and became the distruction of "Atlantis." I also hold that Plato had no information of the location of "Atlantis" and was simply using a turn of phrase when he said it was beyond "the pillars of Hercules". This meant it's location was not known. For the most part "Beyond the Pillars of Hercules" was getting beyond the known world of the times.
Other descriptive elements of Plato's story are drawn from the oral history of his time. They have the feel of a Bronze Age civilsation.

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cleasterwood
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posted 12-10-2004 04:42     Click Here to See the Profile for cleasterwood     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Native American Traditions- Although this is reaching a bit. However, I think they hold some pertinence and may help us globalize the Atlantis theory more.

Navajo --But it is in the legends of the Navajo Indians of North America that we find the most complete account of the cave-life . It is as follows: "The Navajos, living north of the Pueblos, say that at one time all the nations, Navajos, Pueblos, Coyoteros, and white people, lived together tinder ground, in the heart of a mountain, near the river San Juan. Their food was meat, which they had in abundance, for all kinds of game were closed up with them in their cave; but their light was dim, and only endured for a few hours each day. There were, happily, two dumb men among the Navajos, flute-players, who enlivened the darkness with music. One of these, striking by chance on the roof of the limbo with his flute, brought out a hollow sound, upon which the elders of the tribe determined to bore in the direction whence the sound came. The flute was then set up against the roof, and the Raccoon sent up the tube to dig a way out, but he could not. Then the Moth-worm mounted into the breach, and bored and bored till he found himself suddenly on the outside of the mountain, and surrounded by water."
"Under these novel circumstances, he, (the Moth-worm,) heaped up a little mound, and set himself down on it to observe and ponder the situation. A critical situation enough!--for from the four corners of the universe four great white Swans bore down upon him, every one with two arrows, one under each wing. The Swan from the north reached him first, and, having pierced him with two arrows, drew them out and examined their points, exclaiming, as the result, 'He is of my race.' So, also, in succession, did all the others. Then they went away; and toward the directions in which they departed, to the north, south, east, and west, were found four great arroyos, by which all the water flowed off, leaving only MUD. The Worm now returned to the cave, and the Raccoon went up into the mud, sinking in it mid-leg deep, as the marks on his fur show to this day. And the wind began to rise, sweeping up the four great arroyos, and the mud was dried away.
"Then the men and the animals began to come up from their cave, and their coming up required several days. First came the Navajos, and no sooner had they reached the surface than they commenced gaming at patole, their favorite game. Then came the Pueblos and other Indians, who crop their hair and build houses. Lastly came the white people, who started off at once for the rising sun, and were lost sight of for many winters.
"When these nations lived under ground they all spake one tongue; but, with the light of day and the level of earth, came many languages. The earth was at this time very small, and the light was quite as scanty as it had been down below, for there was as yet no heaven, no sun, nor moon, nor stars. So another council of the ancients was held, and a committee of their number appointed to manufacture these luminaries." [1]
Here we have the same story: In an ancient age, before the races of men had differentiated, a remnant of mankind was driven, by some great event, into a cave; all kinds of animals had sought shelter in. the same place; something--the Drift--had closed up the mouth of the cavern; the men subsisted on the animals. At last they dug their way out, to find the world covered with mud and water. Great winds cut the mud into deep valleys, by which the waters ran off. The mud was everywhere; gradually it dried up. But outside the cave it was nearly as dark as it was within it; the clouds covered the world; neither sun, moon, nor stars could be seen; the earth was very small, that is, but little of it was above the waste of waters. [1. Bancroft's "Native Races," vol. iii, p. 81.] And here we have the people longing for the return of the sun. The legend proceeds to give an account of the making of the sun and moon. The dumb fluter, who had charge of the construction of the sun, through his clumsiness, came near setting fire to the world.
"The old men, however, either more lenient than Zeus, or lacking his thunder, contented themselves with forcing the offender back by puffing the smoke of their pipes into his face."
Here we have the event, which properly should have preceded the cave-story, brought in subsequent to it. The sun nearly burns up the earth, and the earth is saved amid the smoke of incense from the pipes of the old men--the gods. And we are told that the increasing size of the earth has four times rendered it necessary that the sun should be put farther back from the earth. The clearer the atmosphere, the farther away the sun has appeared.
"At night, also, the other dumb man issues from this cave, bearing the moon under his arm, and lighting up such part of the world as he can. Next, the old men set to work to make the heavens, intending to broider in the stars in beautiful patterns of bears, birds, and such things."
That is to say, a civilized race 'began to divide up the heavens into constellations, to which they gave the names of the Great and Little Bear, the Wolf, the Serpent, the Dragon, the Eagle, the Swan, the Crane, the Peacock, the Toucan, the Crow, etc.; some of which names they retain among ourselves to this day.
"But, just as they had made a beginning, a prairie-wolf rushed in, and, crying out, 'Why all this trouble and embroidery?' scattered the pile of stars over all the floor of heaven, just as they still lie."
This iconoclastic and unæsthetical prairie-wolf represents a barbarian's incapacity to see in the arrangement of the stars any such constellations, or, in fact, anything but an unmeaning jumble of cinders.
And then we learn how the tribes of men separated: "The old men" (the civilized race, the gods) "prepared two earthen tinages, or water-jars, and having decorated one with bright colors, filled it with trifles; while the other was left plain on the outside, but filled within with flocks and herds and riches of all kinds. These jars being covered, and presented to the Navajos and Pueblos, the former chose the gaudy but paltry jar; while the Pueblos received the plain and rich vessel--each nation showing, in its choice, traits which characterize it to this day."
The cave of Pacarin-Tampu, already alluded to, the Lodgings of the Dawn, or the Place of Birth of the Peruvians, was five leagues distant from Cuzco, surrounded by a sacred grove, and inclosed with temples of great antiquity.
"From its hallowed recesses the mythical civilizers, of Peru, tile first of men, emerged, and in it, during the time of the flood, the remnants of the race escaped the fury of the waves." [1]
We read in the legends of Oraibi, hereafter quoted more fully, that the people climbed up a ladder from a lower world to this--that is, they ascended from the cave in which they had taken refuge. This was in an age of cold and darkness; there was yet no sun or moon.
But the legends of these Indians of Mount Shasta go still further. After narrating, as above, the fall of a stone from heaven, and the formation of immense masses of ice, which subsequently melted and formed rivers, and after the Creator had made trees, birds,. and animals, especially the grizzly bear, then we have a legend which reminds us of the cave-life which accompanied the great catastrophe:[1. Balboa, "Histoire du Pérou," p. 4. 2. Bancroft's "Native Races," vol. iii, p. 90.] "Indeed, this animal" (the grizzly bear) "was then so large, strong, and cunning, that the Creator somewhat feared him, and hollowed out Mount Shasta as a wigwam for himself, where he might reside while on earth in the most perfect security and comfort. So the smoke was soon to be seen curling up from the mountain where the Great Spirit and his family lived, and still live, though their hearth-fire is alive no longer, now that the white-man is in the land."
Here the superior race seeks shelter in a cave on Mount Shasta, and their camp-fire is associated with the smoke which once went forth out of the volcano; while an inferior race, a Neanderthal race, dwell in the plains at the foot of the mountain.
"This was thousands of snows ago, and there came after this a late and severe spring-time, in which a memorable storm blew up from the sea, shaking the huge lodge" (Mount Shasta) "to its base."
(Another recollection of the Ice Age.) "The Great Spirit commanded his daughter, little more than an infant, to go up and bid the wind to be still, cautioning her, at the same time, in his fatherly way, not to put her head out into the blast, but only to thrust out her little red arm and make a sign, before she delivered her message." [1]
Here we seem to have a reminiscence of the cave-dwellers, looking out at the terrible tempest from their places of shelter. [1. Bancroft's "Native Races," vol. iii, p. 91.]
The child of the Great Spirit exposes herself too much, is caught by the wind and blown down the mountain-side, where she is found, shivering on the snow, by a family of grizzly bears. These grizzly bears evidently possessed some humane as well as human traits: "They walked then on their hind-legs like men, and talked, and carried clubs, using the fore-limbs as men use their arms." They represent in their bear-skins the rude, fur-clad race that were developed during the intense cold of the Glacial Age.
The child of the Great Spirit, the superior race, intermarries with one of the grizzly bears, and from this union came the race of men, to wit, the Indians.
"But the Great Spirit punished the grizzly bears by depriving them of the power of speech, and of standing erect--in short, by making true bears of them. But no Indian will, to this day, kill a grizzly bear, recognizing as he does the tie of blood."
Again, we are told: "The inhabitants of central Europe and the Teutonic races who came late to England place their mythical heroes under ground in caves, in vaults beneath enchanted castles, or in mounds which rise up and open, and show their buried inhabitants alive and busy about the avocations of earthly men. . . . In Morayshire the buried race are supposed to be under the sandhills, as they are in some parts of Brittany." [1]
Associated with these legends we find many that refer to the time of great cold, and snow, and ice. I give one or two specimens: In the story of the Iroquois, (see p. 173, ante,) we are told that the White One, [the Light One, the Sun,] after he had destroyed the monster who covered the earth with blood and stones, then destroyed the gigantic frog. [1. "Frost and Fire," vol. ii, p. 190.] The frog, a cold-blooded, moist reptile, was always the emblem of water and cold; it represented the great ice-fields that squatted, frog-like, on the face of the earth. It had "swallowed all the waters," says the Iroquois legend; that is, "the waters were congealed in it; and when it was killed great and destructive torrents broke forth and devastated the land, and Manibozho, the White One, the beneficent Sun, guided these waters into smooth streams and lakes." The Aztecs adored the goddess of water under the figure of a great green frog carved from a single emerald. [1]

In the Omaha we have the fable of "How the Rabbit killed the Winter," told in the Indian manner. The Rabbit was probably a reminiscence of the Great Hare, Manabozho; and he, probably, as we shall see, a recollection of a great race, whose totem was the Hare.
I condense the Indian story: "The Rabbit in the past time moving came where the Winter was. The Winter said: 'You have not been here lately; sit down.' The Rabbit said he came because his grandmother had altogether beaten the life out of him" (the fallen débris?). "The Winter went hunting. It was very cold: there was a snow-storm. The Rabbit seared up a deer. 'Shoot him,' said the Rabbit. 'No; I do not hunt such things as that,' said the Winter. They came upon some men. That was the Winter's game. He killed the men and boiled them for supper," (cave-cannibalism). "The Rabbit refused to eat the human flesh. The Winter went hunting again. The Rabbit found out from the Winter's wife that the thing the Winter dreaded most of all the world was the head of a Rocky Mountain sheep. The Rabbit procured one. It was dark. He threw it suddenly at the Winter, saying, 'Uncle, that round thing by you is the head of a Rocky Mountain sheep.'[1. Brinton's "Myths of the New World," p. 185.]
The Winter became altogether dead. Only the woman remained. Therefore from that time it has not been very cold."
Of course, any attempt to interpret such a crude myth must be guess-work. It shows, however, that the Indians believed that there was a time when the winter was much more severe than it is now; it was very cold and dark. Associated with it is the destruction of men and cannibalism. At last the Rabbit brings a round object, (the Sun?), the head of a Rocky Mountain sheep, and the Winter looks on it, and perishes.
Even tropical Peru has its legend of the Age of Ice.
Garcilaso de la Vega, a descendant of the Incas, has preserved an ancient indigenous poem of his nation, which seems to allude to a great event, the breaking to fragments of some large object, associated with ice and snow. Dr. Brinton translates it from the Quichua, as follows: "Beauteous princess, Lo, thy brother Breaks thy vessel Now in fragments. From the blow come Thunder, lightning, Strokes of lightning And thou, princess, Tak'st the water, With it raineth, And the hail, or Snow dispenseth. Viracocha, World-constructor, World-enlivener, To this office Thee appointed, Thee created." [1] [1. "Myths of the New World," p. 167.]
But it may be asked, How in such a period of terror and calamity--as we must conceive the comet to have caused-would men think of finding refuge in caves?
The answer is plain: either they or their ancestors had lived in caves. Caves were the first shelters of uncivilized men. It was not necessary to fly to the caves through the rain of falling débris; many were doubtless already in them when the great world-storm broke, and others naturally sought their usual dwelling-places. "The cavern," says Brinton, "dimly lingered in the memories of nations." Man is born of the earth; he is made of the clay like Adam, created-- "Of good red clay, Haply from Mount Aornus, beyond sweep Of the black eagle's wing." The cave-temples of India-the oldest temples, probably, on earth--are a reminiscence of this cave-life. We shall see hereafter that Lot and his daughters "dwelt in a cave"; and we shall find Job bidden away in the "narrow-mouthed bottomless" pit or cave.


2. Navajo (Four Corners area): The first world, where Navajos originated, was inhabited by Insect People of twelve types. For their sins of adultery and constant quarreling, the gods expelled them by sending a wall of water from all directions. The Insect People flew up into the second world, guided through a hole in the sky by a cliff swallow. The second world was a barren world inhabited by Swallow People. They decided to stay anyway, but after 24 days, one of the Insect People made love to the wife of the Swallow People's chief. They were expelled to the third world; the white face of the wind told them of an opening. The third world was a barren world of Grasshopper People. Again, the Insect People were expelled for philandering after 24 days. The red face of the wind guided them to the hole to the fourth world. This world was inhabited by animals and Pueblos, with whom the Insect People coexisted peacefully. The gods made people in human form from ears of corn, different colors of corn becoming different tribes. The Insect People intermarried with them, and their descendants eventually looked fully human. In time, the men and women argued and decided to live apart. But both groups engaged in unnatural sex acts, and eventually the women were starving, so they got back together. The gods were displeased by their sins, though, and sent a wall of water upon them. The people noticed animals running and sent cicadas to investigate. They escaped the floodwaters by climbing into a fast-growing reed. Cicada dug an entrance into the fifth world, which was inhabited by grebes. The grebes said that people could have that world if they could survive plunging arrows into their heart. The cicadas met this challenge (they bear the scars on their sides still), and people live in the fifth world today. [Capinera, pp. 226-228]


3. Iroquios---- The Five Nations Long, long ago, one of the Spirits of the Sky World came down and looked at the earth. As he travelled over it, he found it beautiful, and so he created people to live on it. Before returning to the sky, he gave them names, called the people all together, and spoke his parting words:
"To the Mohawks, I give corn," he said. "To the patient Oneidas, I give the nuts and the fruit of many trees. To the industrious Senecas, I give beans. To the friendly Cayugas, I give the roots of plants to be eaten. To the wise and eloquent Onondagas, I give grapes and squashes to eat and tobacco to smoke at the camp fires."
Many other things he told the new people. Then he wrapped himself in a bright cloud and went like a swift arrow to the Sun. There his return caused his Brother Sky Spirits to rejoice.
The Six Nations Long, long ago, in the great past, there were no people on the earth. All of it was covered by deep water. Birds, flying, filled the air, and many huge monsters possessed the waters.
One day the birds saw a beautiful woman falling from the sky. Immediately the huge ducks held a council.
"How can we prevent her from falling into the water?" they asked.
After some discussion, they decided to spread out their wings and thus break the force of her fall. Each duck spread out its wings until it touched the wings of other ducks. So the beautiful woman reached them safely.
Then the monsters of the deep held a council, to decide how they could protect the beautiful being from the terror of the waters. One after another, the monsters decided that they were not able to protect her, that only Giant Tortoise was big enough to bear her weight. He volunteered, and she was gently placed upon his back. Giant Tortoise magically increased in size and soon became a large island.
After a time, the Celestial Woman gave birth to twin boys. One of them was the Spirit of Good. He made all the good things on the earth and caused the corn, the fruits, and the tobacco to grow.
The other twin was the Spirit of Evil. He created the weeds and also the worms and the bugs and all the other creatures that do evil to the good animals and birds.
All the time, Giant Tortoise continued to stretch himself. And so the world became larger and larger. Sometimes Giant Tortoise moved himself in such a way as to make the earth quake.
After many, many years had passed by, the Sky-Holder, whom Indians called Ta-rhu-hia-wah-ku, decided to create some people. He wanted them to surpass all others in beauty, strength, and bravery. So from the bosom of the island where they had been living on moles, the Sky-Holder brought forth six pairs of people.
The first pair were left near a great river, now called the Mohawk. So they are called the Mohawk Indians. The second pair were told to move their home beside a large stone. Their descendants have been called the Oneidas. Many of them lived on the south side of Oneida Lake and others in the valleys of Oneida Creek. A third pair were left on a high hill and have always been called the Onondagas.
The fourth pair became the parents of the Cayugas, and the fifth pair the parents of the Senecas. Both were placed in some part of what is now known as the State of New York. But the Tuscaroras were taken up the Roanoke River into what is now known as North Carolina. There the Sky-Holder made his home while he taught these people and their descendants many useful arts and crafts.
The Tuscaroras claim that his presence with them made them superior to the other Iroquois nations. But each of the other five will tell you, "Ours was the favoured tribe with whom Sky- Holder made his home while he was on the earth."
The Onondagas say, "We have the council fire. That means that we are the chosen people."
As the years passed by, the numerous Iroquois families became scattered over the state, and also in what is now Pennsylvania, the Middle West and southeastern Canada. Some lived in areas where bear was their principal game. So these people were called the Bear Clan. Others lived where beavers were plentiful. So they were called the Beaver Clan. For similar reasons, the Deer, Wolf, Snipe and Tortoise clans received their names.
Among the Iroquois, according to the Jesuit missionary, Father Brebeuf, who resided among the Hurons in 1626, there was a legend of two brothers, Ioskeba and Tawiscara, which mean, in the Oneida dialect, the White One, the light, the sun, and the Dark One, the night. [1. Brinton's "Myths," p. 182.]
They were twins, born of a virgin mother, who died in giving them life. Their grandmother was the moon (the water deity), called At-aeusic, a word which signifies "she bathes herself," derived from the word for water.
"The brothers quarreled, and finally came to blows, the former using the horns of a stag, the latter the wild rose. He of the weaker weapon was very naturally discomfited and sorely wounded. Fleeing for life, the blood gushed from him at every step, and as it fell turned into flint-stones. The victor returned to his grandmother in the far east, and established his lodge on the borders of the great ocean, whence the sun comes. In time he became the father of mankind, and special guardian of the Iroquois. The earth was at first arid and sterile, but he destroyed the gigantic frog which had swallowed all the waters, and guided the torrents into smooth streams and lakes. The woods he stocked with game; and, having learned from the great tortoise who supports the world how to make fire, taught his children, the Indians, this indispensable art. . . . Sometimes they spoke of him as the sun, but this is only figuratively." [1]
Here we have the light and darkness, the sun and the night, battling with each other; the sun fights with a younger brother, another luminary, the comet; the comet is broken up; it flies for life, the red blood (the red clay) streaming from it, and flint-stones appearing on the earth wherever the blood (the clay) falls. The victorious sun re-establishes himself in the east. And then the myth of the sun merges into the legends concerning a great people, who were the fathers of mankind who dwelt "in the east," on the borders of the great eastern ocean, the Atlantic. "The earth was at first arid and sterile," covered with débris and stones; but the returning sun, the White One, destroys the gigantic frog, emblem of cold and water, the great snows and ice-deposits; this[1. Brinton's "Myths of the New World," p. 184.]
frog had "swallowed all the waters," that is to say, the falling rains had been congealed in these great snow-banks and glaciers; the sun melts them, and kills the frog; the waters pour forth in deluging floods; Manibozho "guides the torrents into smooth streams and lakes"; the woods return, and become once more full of animal life. Then the myth again mixes up the sun and the sun-land in the east. From this sun-land, represented as "a tortoise," always the emblem of an island, the Iroquois derive the knowledge of "how to make fire."
This coming of the monster, his attack upon and conquest of the sun, his apparent swallowing of that orb, are all found represented on both sides of the Atlantic, on the walls of temples and in great earth-mounds, in the image of a gigantic serpent holding a globe in its mouth.
This long-trailing object in the skies was probably the origin of that primeval serpent-worship found all over the world. And hence the association of the serpent in so many religions with the evil-one. In itself, the serpent should no more represent moral wrong than the lizard, the crocodile, or the frog; but the hereditary abhorrence with which he is regarded by mankind extends to no other created thing. He is the image of the great destroyer, the wronger, the enemy.
In the story of the Iroquois, (see p. 173, ante,) we are told that the White One, [the Light One, the Sun,] after he had destroyed the monster who covered the earth with blood and stones, then destroyed the gigantic frog.[1. "Frost and Fire," vol. ii, p. 190.] The frog, a cold-blooded, moist reptile, was always the emblem of water and cold; it represented the great ice-fields that squatted, frog-like, on the face of the earth. It had "swallowed all the waters," says the Iroquois legend; that is, "the waters were congealed in it; and when it was killed great and destructive torrents broke forth and devastated the land, and Manibozho, the White One, the beneficent Sun, guided these waters into smooth streams and lakes." The Aztecs adored the goddess of water under the figure of a great green frog carved from a single emerald. [1]
In the Omaha we have the fable of "How the Rabbit killed the Winter," told in the Indian manner. The Rabbit was probably a reminiscence of the Great Hare, Manabozho; and he, probably, as we shall see, a recollection of a great race, whose totem was the Hare. I condense the Indian story: "The Rabbit in the past time moving came where the Winter was. The Winter said: 'You have not been here lately; sit down.' The Rabbit said he came because his grandmother had altogether beaten the life out of him" (the fallen débris?). "The Winter went hunting. It was very cold: there was a snow-storm. The Rabbit seared up a deer. 'Shoot him,' said the Rabbit. 'No; I do not hunt such things as that,' said the Winter. They came upon some men. That was the Winter's game. He killed the men and boiled them for supper," (cave-cannibalism). "The Rabbit refused to eat the human flesh. The Winter went hunting again. The Rabbit found out from the Winter's wife that the thing the Winter dreaded most of all the world was the head of a Rocky Mountain sheep. The Rabbit procured one. It was dark. He threw it suddenly at the Winter, saying, 'Uncle, that round thing by you is the head of a Rocky Mountain sheep.'
Iroquois : In the beginning there was no earth to live on, but up above, in the Great Blue, there was a woman who dreamed dreams. One night she dreamed about a tree covered with white blossoms, a tree that brightened up the sky when its flowers opened but that brought terrible darkness when they closed again. The dream frightened her, so she went and told it to the wise old men who lived with her, in their village in the sky.
"Pull up this tree," she begged them, but they did not understand. All they did was to dig around its roots, to make space for more light. But the tree just fell through the hole they had made and disappeared. After that there was no light at all, only darkness.
The old men grew frightened of the woman and her dreams. It was her fault that the light had gone away forever.
So they dragged her toward the hole and pushed her through as well. Down, down she fell, down toward the great emptiness. There was nothing below her but a heaving waste of water and she would surely have been smashed to pieces, this strange dreaming woman from the Great Blue, had not a fish hawk come to her aid. His feathers made a pillow for her and she drifted gently above the waves.
But the fish hawk could not keep her up all on his own. He needed help. So he called out to the creatures of the deep. "We must find some firm ground for this poor woman to rest on," he said anxiously. But there was no ground, only the swirling, endless waters.
A helldiver went down, down, down to the very bottom of the sea and brought back a little bit of mud in his beak. He found a turtle, smeared the mud onto its back, and dived down again for more.
Then the ducks joined in. They loved getting muddy and they too brought beakfuls of the ocean floor and spread it over the turtle's shell. The beavers helped-- they were great builders-- and they worked away, making the shell bigger and bigger.
Everybody was very busy now and everybody was excited. This world they were making seemed to be growing enormous! The birds and the animals rushed about building countries, the continents, until, in the end, they had made the whole round earth, while all the time they sky woman was safely sitting on the turtle's back.
And the turtle holds the earth up to this very day.
-Native American Myths and Legends
In the Land Above The Sky a strong wind uprooted this tree. Skywoman, walking by, fell through the hole left by the tree. As she fell a flock of geese broke her fall and she landed on a giant turtle that rose from the waters. This giant turtle grew in shape and size to form the land. There Skywoman gave birth to a daughter whose children propagated the human race.

Here we have references to twins (possibly of the Atlantis twins referenced) as well as many other legends that we here seem to know very little about. I hope these provide additional insight.

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TetrahedreX
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posted 12-10-2004 20:14     Click Here to See the Profile for TetrahedreX     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Do any of you know of a comprehensive collection or list of such references to Atlantis? Such a compendium would be extremely useful for my project.

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