quote:

---

The name Atlantis consists of two South American words, "atl" meaning water and "antis" meaning copper

---

Basque mythology, filled with all manner of supernatural creatures, bears no resemblance to any of the mythologies of the Mediterranean. The evidence shows that the Basques have resided in western Europe since about 10,000 b.c., and, genetically, share traits in common with the Guanches, who reside in the Canary Islands.

The Basque claim to be descendents from Atlantis. The Guanches claimed to have come to the Canaries after their homeland in the Atlantic was destroyed in a great cataclysm. The Guanches do not specifically mention Atlantis, yet it would seem to be a logical conclusion.

* Strabo, the Greek geographer and historian, tells us that 2,600 years before his time, certain navigants crossed beyond the Pillars of Hercules, and dealt with the Tartessians. Now, these Tartessians — who are often identified with the Atlanteans — had, he affirms, written records of their history that amounted to 7,000 years before their own time. Again, this adds to a date of about 11,600 BP, precisely as preconized by Plato for the Atlantean cataclysm, for Strabo flourished in the times of Christ

The actual existence of Tartessos is beyond dispute. It is mentioned in many ancient sources, among them, the Bible. However, it is sunken somewhere along the coastline of Spain and has yet to be found. Unless Plato made many seriour errors in his account concerning his measurements, Tartessos could not in itself have been Atlantis. However, it does make sense that this city could have been a colony of Atlantis of some sort.

Leaving aside the Strabo reference for the moment, I think it would be important to look to see where the source is that the records of Tartessos go back some 7,000 years. As we know, the city is sunken, and the Phoenicians only developed their alphabet around 1,000 b.c.

Much also is made of the idea that Tartessos considered themselves to be descendents of the Atlanteans. However, unless we uncover actual records close to the age that is described (supposedly dating back to the era in question, in an era where there was no writing), we can't be sure that any of this is anything other than conjecture.

That discovery, by the way, would also happen to eradicate what we know of the history of the written language.

If the stories of the Basques and the Guanches are to be believed, two similar people that lived along the shores of the Atlantic (not to mention the Berbers of Morrocco), then it would make even less sense for the Atlantis story to have a Mediterranean origin.

We know that their are underwater cities along the coastlines of Spain and western Africa, and, if the Russians and Dr. Maxine Asher are to be believed, these cities also stretch out into the eastern Atlantic.

More documentation, though, is needed to prove the connection between the Basques, Guanches and Tartessos.

*Written records of the city of Tartessos and it's true history have to be uncovered (something that probably won't be accomplished until the city itself is found.

*The language left behind by the Guanches on rocks in the Canary Islands has to be deciphred.

I think you will see the relevance.

A claim is being made that bronze tablets were created ca 1200-1600 BC, in a "land of the Hyperboreans", and that Plato's writings (outside the Atlantis texts) explain some details connected to those ancient bronze memorials.

quote:
According to Herodotus:

Two virgins were sent from Hyperborea to bring gifts to the goddess and protector of childbirth, Eileithyia.
Their names were Laodice and Hyperokhe.
Five men, called ”perferies”, were sent with them as guardians for a long and arduous trip.
They came VIA the land of Scyths, which was northwest of Black Sea, where Ukraine is today.(Therefore, down the river-system)
From there to the head of Adriatic sea and thence to the mainland of Greece, through the island of Euboia and finally to Delos.
Those four hyperborean maidens remained in Delos the rest of their lives, as priestesses, in the temple of Artemis, and there they also died.
They were highly respected for many centuries.
When Delian youngsters got married, both girls and boys cut a lock of hair and placed it on the grave of Laodice and Hyperokhe, To ask for easy deliveries and healthy babies.
An olive tree grew on the grave when Herodotus saw it, at 450 BZ.

But Delians told him that two maidens, named Arge and Opis, had come there first, from Hyperborea, at the same time with the two gods, Artemis and Apollo.
Arge and Opis had come to help and assist Leto with the delivery of the two gods.

(I am thinking that, as priestesses of Apollo and Artemis, they BROUGHT the information-of worshipping the two gods, with them from the far north)

They were respected by a choir that sung a song a Lycian man, named Olen, also said to be Hyperborean, had composed for them, during the festivals that were held every fourth or later every fifth year.
Their names were repeatedly mentioned in that song.
When an animal was sacrificed, it was eaten mostly but the hind leg was burnt on the altar and the ashes were spread to the grave of Arge and Opis.

But this is important, Arge and Opis brought with them a message, bronze plates in which were written the joys and grievings of Paradise and Hades.

This story is to be found in the writings of Plato:

In his book number seven, he writes what Sokrates had told to his friend Aksiokhos.
Sokrates mentions the story he had heard from a man named Gobryes.
The grandfather of this Gobryes had been sent to the island of Delos to save the valuables from the marauding Persians, in the year when they were invading Greece, 480 BZ.

This here is the text of the bronze plates;

”Soul goes to the land of shady light after parting from the body, deep underground, (the Lemminkainen Temple, now being excavated in Finland?) where Pluto rules as a King, areas which are as large as the halls of Zeus.
When the Earth is in the center of universe, and universe is like a ball, gods of the Sky rule one half and the gods of Hades rule the other half.
Other gods are brothers, and others are the children of brothers.
On the road to the outer court of Pluto there are iron gates which are closed with iron keys.
When gates are opened, first Acheron and then Cocytos rivers must be crossed to get to the fields of truth where Rhadamanthys and Minos wait for you.
There the judges ask what kind of life you have lived when the soul was still within you.
(Rhadamanthys judged the Asian people, Minos the European.)(Leo's parenthesis)
There you cannot lie.
Those who have obeyed the voice of good consience, go to the fields of blessed.
There fruits grow in a mild climate, clean rivers flow and fields are full of springtime flowers.
Philsophers talk, plays are being acted, choirs dance and music is being played.
There are no pains, life is full of enjoyments, the weather being not too cold, nor extreme hot, but the sunshine warms pleasantly.
Festivals are being held any time, no reason is needed for them.
Front seats are reserved for those who are engaged to the Mysteries, there they perform the holy rites.
The story tells that right here Herakles and Dionysos were initiated in to the holy Mysteries before they stepped down to the land of Hades, and that it was the Queen of the Eleusian Fields who encouraged them to do so.

But those who have led a criminal life go to the dark caves of Tartaros where the spirits of revenge take hold of them.
There the daughters of Danae endlessly scoop water and Tantalos suffers from unending thirst, Tityos, who’s mutilated organs just keep growing forever and Sisyfos, who pushes a big boulder uphill to start it anew time after time.
There the tongues of beasts lick them and the flames of the torches burn them.

Just figure it yourself, Aksiokhos, what Gobryes told me.
My own thinking is in doubt, but I do know that when souls part from us they are out of reach of pains.”

This is the text of the bronzeplates that Arge and Opis had brought with them from the land of Hyperborea, as told to Sokrates by Gobryes.
These plates are no more to be seen because barbarians stole all metals later on, but we are lucky to see the texts from the writings of Plato.

Were these maidens, Arge, Opis, Laodice and Hyperokhe Finns or the descendants of the Hyllean people who had emigrated from the island of Corfu to the Cronian Sea (adjacent to Finland), we will never get to know, perhaps.

But the writing of those bronze-plates describing the conditions of Paradise and Hades were most probably from Hel.
Herodotus wonders that even in his time, 450 BZ, those graves were to be seen in Delos.
But they are still there today, well kept and marked, in the maps too.

But when were those virgins buried there?
Three vases have been found in their graves beside the bones during the excavations.
They have been dated to be made at the Mycenaean time, 1600–1200 BZ.

This is curious since he must have talked to the Phoenicians.

quote from: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126&query=chapter%3D%23519&layout=&loc=3.114.1

CXV. These then are the most distant lands in Asia and Libya. But concerning those in Europe that are the farthest away towards evening, I cannot speak with assurance; for I do not believe that there is a river called by foreigners Eridanus issuing into the northern sea, where our amber is said to come from, nor do I have any knowledge of Tin Islands, where our tin is brought from. [2] The very name Eridanus betrays itself as not a foreign but a Greek name, invented by some poet; nor for all my diligence have I been able to learn from one who has seen it that there is a sea beyond Europe. All we know is that our tin and amber come from the most distant parts.
endquote

Here is Herodotus's report about the western horn of Africa. (I recommend that we compare this to the Greek myth about Eumolpus being raised by an "Ethiopian" daughter of Poseidon, followed by the subsequent attack by Eumolpus against both Eleusinus and Athens).

quote from: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126;query=chapter%3D%23518;layout=;loc=3.115.1

Both Basques and Guanches are part of the old Sea-culture that spread FROM the north - down south after ice-time.

Surviving ice-time in isolation of the high Noerth (Baltics) they had used the time to develop an advanced writing-system, - today known as The Alphabet.

Although this is news to you Chron, I think it is duely to relate the northern Sagas as valid sources of information about Atlantis. They are - in fact - MORE precise, contextual, chronologic and clear than Plato has ever been.

I have been following what you have written about the Bock Saga since I joined here in the summer, so, contrary to what you said, it isn't new to me. I do have a great deal of respect for your work, even if I don't agree with all of it.

Some points about the material you just posted:

*While you've proven to me that perhaps the Minoans and the Mycenaens may have come from the north, I haven't seen anything in the Bock work to suggest something similar with the Basuques and the Guanches. Genetically, they are distinct among the people of Europe and may just as well had an Atlantic origin.

*You suggest that the people of the north created the alphabet but we all know the Phoenicians have long been given credit for it. If the Bock people actually did create it, why was their history relayed in oral tradition, rather than written records? That would seem to fly in the face of all the evidence.

*The one written document that seems to back up the Bock work, the Oera Linde book, has a different date for Atlantis, 2123 b.c., in my opinion that could suggest we are speaking about two different places. Or, either one of the two, the book or the oral tradition are wrong.

*I have yet to see anything in the Bock Saga pinpoint an exact location for Atlantis. Is there one?

*And, of course, Plato mentions two growing seasons, hard to have in the cold north.

The Basques have no legend of Atlantis, and they got their alphabet from the Romans.

Apologies to those that have already read this commentary on Atlantis
Destroyed, but hopefully not all have:
Of all the books I've read on Atlantis, the most impressive (and the
one with the most archaeological evidence) is Rodney Castleden's
Atlantis Destroyed, published in 1998 by Routledge. Castleden also
wrote The Making of Stonehenge, The Knossos Labyrinth, The Stonehenge
People, Neolithic Britain, and Minoans: Life in Bronze Age Crete.
(And Classic Landforms of the Sussex Coast for the Geographical
Association, but that's not relevant here!).

On page 7 he discusses the Pillars of Hercules: "Before the sixth
century BC several mountains on the edges of mainland Greece were
seen as supports for the sky. Amongst others, the two southward-
pointing headlands on each side of the Gulf of Laconia were pillars
of Heracles. Then, to the Greeks, a large island with one end just
outside the pillars of Heracles could only have meant Crete. [This
isn't the sum of Castleden's thesis, wait for it]...Support for a
Peloponnesian location for the pillars comes, unexpectedly, from
Egypt. The Medinet Habu texts, dating from 1200 BC, describe the Sea
Peoples invading from islands to the north (possibly the Aegean),
'from the pillars of heaven', by which the Egyptians probably meant
that the invaders came from the end of the world as they knew it.'

He then goes on to say "The thesis of this book is that the story is
not one piece of identifiable proto-history but several, and that
Plato drew them together because he wanted to weave them into a
parable that commented on the state of the world in his own times ...
he wanted to entertain, improve and exalt his readers. A distant
memory of the Minoan civilization was available, preserved for his
use, as he said, by the seventh century priests in the Nile delta.
The wealth, orderliness and strangeness of the Minoans are sketched
in for us." Castleden then points out that Plato does not write about
Atlantis as a utopia, but about Athens -- "It is the Athenians who
are described in utopian terms. It is they who have relinquished
private property... and have prolific fields and boundless pastures.
It is Athens that is the excellent land with well-tempered seasons."

Castleden follows this with a very detailed discussion of the
archaeology and geography of Minoan Crete and Thera and how that
compares with Plato's tale. He goes into detail about how the story
might have been transmitted to Plato and Plato's possible motives in
writing the two essays. (He also mentions that there was a century
older text by Hellanicus, of which only a small fragment survives,
called 'Atlantis'!).

In the last chapter, he writes "There are several reasons why there
have been so many misunderstandings about the nature of Atlantis and
its location in time and space:

"1. Plato left the various elements in the story's visible and
undigested. Although he altered it, he did not do so thoroughly and
the result is that Atlantis as described cannot have existed at all.
That has led some commentators to claim mistakenly that the story is
fiction from start to finish, and thus to overlook the proto-
historical content.

"2. The Egyptians who acquired the story in 1520 BC or shortly
afterwards had a very different geographical sense from he Greeks of
Plato's or Solon's time. To the 16th-century Egyptians, the Aegean
was a long way to the west. When the story was passed to Solon, the
known world was expanding rapidly, and either Solon or the priest may
have assumed that Atlantis was out in the newly visited Atlantic
Ocean.This mistake may actually have led to the ocean being named
after the lost land, rather than the other way around as most people
have assumed.

"3. The geographical mistake was compounded by a misreading of Linear
A or B numerals, or a misreading of hieratic or demotic copies of the
story made in Sais by Egyptian scribes, in the fifteenth century or
later. This led to a tenfold exaggeration of many of the distance
measurements, and a hundredfold exaggeration of area, so that the
Plain of Mesara, instead of being small enough to fit into central
Crete, was inflated to the size of the southern Aegean. The land
areas involved became too big to fit into the Mediterranean: another
reason for removing Atlantis to the outer ocean.

"4. A similar mistranslation of numerals led to an exaggeration of
the 900 years elapsing between Thera's destruction and Solon's
Egyptian visit to 9000 years. The idea of an advanced bronze age
culture ...in 9600 BC has always been unacceptable to pre-historians,
and that has helped to push Atlantis to the outer fringes of academic
study.

[Here I'd like to interject that I've always been puzzled by those
who believe in a 9600 BC Atlantis and ignore the archaeological
evidence that there was no 9600 BC bronze age Athens. They seem to
want to say that half the story is true, the other half false.]

"5. The hypothesis revived repeatedly in the 20th century - that
Minoan Crete was Atlantis - has proved inadequate ... The parallel
hypothesis, based on more recent archaeological evidence, that
Cycladic Thera was Atlantis is also in itself inadequate. Because
these hypotheses can be rejected separately, many have rejected the
idea that Atlantis might have existed in the southern Aegean,
understandably overlooking the possibility that if the two hypotheses
are combined they do meet the needs of Plato's description.

6. -- omitted, about the Pillars of Heracles and dealt with above.

"7. It is possible that contemporary allegorical readings of the tale
were intended to be implicitly ironic, and that in relation to Sparta
and Syracuse Plato intended Athens to be Atlantis. From the
execution of Socrates, Plato learned the value of cricumspection and
may have chosen, for safety's sake, not to say directly what he meant.
"

What I find so impressive in this book, as I've said, is the wealth
of archaeological evidence.

One final point. Castleden is holding to the later date for the Thera
eruption, and includes an appendix justifying this.

Castleden goes into a lot of detail about where Plato got inspiration
for various aspects of his story.

A nuch older book, Atlantis: Fact or Fiction, ed. Edwin Ramage, is
also interesting, especially the section on the literary perspective.

We can only imagine we know what Plato's purpose was in writing both Timaeus and Critias. Those who assume they know the true purpose are kidding themselves. Plato is no longer around, nor did he leave any commentaries on his intentions on writing either of them. The commentaries that others have placed, like Plutarch, favor truth. If it was a commentary on Greek society as you suggest, I remind you that he already had "the Republic," which served that purpose much better.

Quote:
"I have been following what you have written about the Bock Saga since I joined here in the summer, so, contrary to what you said, it isn't new to me. I do have a great deal of respect for your work, even if I don't agree with all of it."

Thanks!
Though - there are people who have spent days, weeks and months to "listen into" and learn this saga as good as possible over the last 20 years. I have been following it, in many ways, since 1989 (only).

Prior to that I had a number of other traditions - including the European, Norse, Hindi and Hopi/Mayan myths on my table. So, from 89 on I intensified my study of the Norse - since it is the first hand reference to the bock-saga. But, - I have still a long way left to go - before i reach anywhere close to the bottom of it. Thus I wanted to be sure to mention the dimension of experience/indepth-study of the vast essays constituting the Bocksaga.

Quote:

*While you've proven to me that perhaps the Minoans and the Mycenaens may have come from the north, I haven't seen anything in the Bock work to suggest something similar with the Basuques and the Guanches. Genetically, they are distinct among the people of Europe and may just as well had an Atlantic origin.

- The Guanches and the Basques have indeed been keeping legends stating their roots back to Atlantis - in THEIR own myths. Personally I do not find that strange.

The Bocksaga is not saying anything explicit about these specific goups. But, - Given that the saga is genuine - it is still the by far oldest reference we have to the origin and spread of ALL populations of both east and west Eurasia. Where the Goanches, the Basques and even the Fomorians are - obviously - part of a fishing and sea-faring culture...

The time-span of the Bocksaga just happened to be very close to the one Michael Cremo/Ron Thompson have outlined in theirg outstanding works on "Forbidden Archaeology". Since there have been NO contact - whatsoever - between Cremo and any Saga-tellers before - we have to admit that the paralell in time-lines and frames turns their paralellity to be one more of these "incredible matches" - that we have experienced during the last 7-8 years. Its just incredible how astonishing new discoveries - time after time - show not only to fit with the outlines of the saga. As close as 1995 we - still - had only ONE man and his new and unknown saga - that told anything close to the existence of people in N Europe before 10.000 BP.

Moreover he told - in length - about the artic population originating from the Baltics, where they lived during the entire ice-time, etc., etc. ALL conventional historians - even the shrudest ones - would say that such a thougth was "silly" and "mere phantasy", since they all "knew" that "the massive glaciers made all life impossible" north of the 45 paralell...

Today - seven years after the first repports of Susiloula and Pechora were published - the professionals still have great difficulties with thes anomalies. Because they simly dont fit - into the old "picture" that most historians share. It just takes a lot of time - for them - to keep up with all the new discoveries done today. And then they have to consider and re-consider before some of their old "axions" can be re-evaluated. Finally they - like most of us - have a highly normal resentment towards admitting that your old, professional knowledge ends up as outdated opinions, false beliefs and incomplete knowledge...

Quote;
*You suggest that the people of the north created the alphabet but we all know the Phoenicians have long been given credit for it. If the Bock people actually did create it, why was their history relayed in oral tradition, rather than written records? That would seem to fly in the face of all the evidence.

- Another "why" with a very long tail?! What do YOU think is stored within the "Leminkainen Temple" - which contains artefacts from all cormers of the ancient antiquety?

Quote;
*The one written document that seems to back up the Bock work, the Oera Linde book, have a different date for Atlantis, 2123 b.c., in my opinion that could suggest we are speaking about two different places. Or, either one of the two, the book or the oral tradition are wrong.

- Or they are both rigth. Or both wrong...
To deal with the "colected mythologies" you have to choose ONE or two,three closely related ones - to be the BASELINE. Than you may relate ALL the other ones into that one. But it wont lead anywhere if we start to ramble around, picking and plucking fromall of them - to create our own version of history. That becomes OUR mythology then - whcih has nothing to do with "authenticity". We have seen what may happen when people start on that endavour - asessing, evaluating and "re-considering" history and myth. The religious books, Tora, Bible and Koran, are all clear examples of "cultures in crisis - reforming their mythologies to fit with "The Present Opinion". Which (obviously) miss whats most needed within all folklore/cultural research - the material must clearly be based in one or more AUTHENTIC traditions.

The only exception from that is archeological material - although that is a rather poor foundation for gaining insight into laguage and culture. But it sure helps - AFTER a oral/written story have made an outline. Or when a large mass of collected findings - from a specific area or time-frame - can be analyzed through high-speed search and comparision. Thus our archaology is a very young profession - where 95 % of all collected items are from the past 80 years. And the high-tech of today - that may date old items scientifically - did not come into use before the 1980-ties. (There are millions of old items in museal storage-rooms and halls that never have been dated yet. Its simply to much work to be finished this decade, even) But there again, the conclusions from a the major part of all works are aligned to a "main-theory" - also called a paradigm.

To avoid mixing apples and oranges you must give priority to your sources. Thus the Oera Linda becom subsidary. Dates, numbers and other specifications in the Oera Linda Boek have their own history. But, - WHAT does the Oera Lida itself say about Atlantis? Anything at ALL?

From what i remember it was Robert Scrutton who - after reading this facinating manuscript - created the link to the Atlantis-myth, - ending up with the thesis that "Texland" of Oera linda, actually was Atlantis.

The Bocksaga explicitly express all the neccesary WHYs,WHENs, WHERE and HOWs about "ALT-LAN-IS".

And mind you - this is NOT done to "supply the Greek myths" with the "rigth answers". Bocksaga gives the heck about all that. It simply tells The History of Man on This Planet. Because ice-time actually happened it has to be reffered to - in all neccesary detail - to be understood. Historically. As the articals still exist we may conclude that they developed this features during ice-time. It is now proven that this DID happen within the Baltics. Then you may accept or not what the Bocksaga tells about all of this. But you cant accept the saga - as such - and then start altering - or modifying - the outlines presented as facts - and anchored by the imminent relations to the root language of Scandinavia. (Which - BTW - geneticans have found to be the "oldest population in Europe". The basques and the scandinavians ae actually the only "nations" left - were the population still have clear resemblance, i.e. direct anchestory back to the "original Europeans, older than 10.000 years".)

Quote;
*I have yet to see anything in the Bock Saga pinpoint an exact location for Atlantis. Is there one?

- Yes. Very precise and thoroughly the Bocksaga put down a tremendous amount of specifications about their whereabouts during ice-time. ALL of that went on in what we call Atlantis. Thats actually part of Bocksagas ABC - and can be found on both the web, but even better on some of the oral tapes. The Atlantis-period was spent in Odenma. As the ice melted this area became larger and larger, until the "big spring" - as of 10.000+ years ago. The following transition time was spent on Gotland, from where the first envoys to the tropical kingdoms started. Later the core-family of the "Atlanteas" moved back to Odenmam while their decessors started populating all of the enormous land of the N Eurasia and Scandinavia. As well as mixing in with all the 10 tropical races simultaniously and with the same intent - to harmonize all populations physically, - so that all people could be guaranteed to be born with the same skills - like linguistical abilities. By and by they could align all these different races/cultures to develop genetics that secured them the physical "likeness" - as to premises and promises for a RE-united mankind.

Quote:
*And, of course, Plato mentions two growing seasons, hard to have in the cold north.

- When did Plato visit Atlantis? Why trust "Plato" to fundamentalistic realms?
And then this; Is it impossible to have "two harwests" in todays Carolina/Florida/Califormia? Or Bretagne/Provence in France?

I have relatives in the very south of Sweden (Skane). They have two seasons there. Still today. Imagine how it was 2.500 years ago - as our climate was 2,8 C warmer. Like they have in Carolina and Bretagne today.

Quote;
*I have a different view of the work. In my view, Atlantis existed in the ocean, the survivors migrated to the north (which sowed the seeds of the stories of this northern Atlantis) and descended towards the Mediterranean after a time.

- Scandinavia did exist "in the Ocean" - as an island some millenias ago. Just look at Phyteas "world map" and it is very clear that he knew Fenno-Scandia - which he visited himself (!). There you will find both written and drawn "evidence" that Skandinavia (Hyperborea) was pictured as an ISLAND in the ocean.

BTW; There is an island called "Wrangel Island" in the Kara Ocean, just east/north-east of the White Sea. Thats the latest spot were the Mammoths lived - before they were all and definitly estinguished, just about 6000 years ago.

The reasons thereof is not really known, yet. The mammoths of Wrangel was actually a very small kind of mammoth too. Not bigger than todays elephants. Scientists believe that the small size made the Wrangel-mammoth did withstand the climatic changes better than the larger species - that died out long before the "ponnies" at Wrangel. There have obviously been ARTICAL elephants - as other artic animals, like the European Bison, etc. - that didnt make it when the artic climate suddenly became significantly warmer, - as the big melting of oceanic ice ended, some 7000+ years ago...

Regards

Very good presentation of the Bock work, as usual. In my opinion, you are it's most articulate champion. There is ample evidence of an ancient north civilization, of that I certainly don't disagree with you. In another thread, Helios and Atalante just discussed the Zebra disc which was discovered in Germany and dates, at the minimum to 1600 b.c. Whether this cvilization was, in fact, Atlantis is another story. I liked your point on the mammoths, that sort of casts a new light on things.

*You stated Scandinavia was an island in the ocean. While it would approach the size of Plato's Atlantis, it's in the North Sea, Atlantis was in the Atlantic. While we can go back and forth about what it actually was meant by the word 'Atlantic,' there is no denying that Atlantis sunk while Scandinavia is above sea level. There is the Dogger Bank, near Holland, but no evidence of a prehistopric civilization has ever been found there to my knowledge.

*When I say that genetically both the Basques and Guanches are distinct from other peoples of Europe, I don't simply mean because they have myths linking themselves to Atlantis, I am speaking genetically. There is a genetic trait that those two people, along with the Berbers of Morocco share in common that is different from the ancient Europeans. Also, a Basque presence in Europe actually dates to 10,000 b.c., to my knowledge, they are the oldest people in Europe, not the Europeans, however they got there.

*The point about the two growing seasons is a little speculative. Even if Sweden has two seasons, I am certain that this is meant to refer to a more tropical comment. Atlantis was also supposed to be "sheltered by the northern winds." Perhaps that isn't a very telling point for you, but if we play with Plato's words too much, to the extent that it affects not only the climate but the geography, time period and other elements, soon we might not even be speaking about Atlantis anymore, but perhaps some other lost civilization.

*I am really surprised at how little weight both you and Rockessence give to the Oera Linde book. Perhaps some of it is mixing apples and oranges, but from what I have read of it, other parts seem to add more credence to what you've been saying. Is the 2123 b.c. date that hard to accept? I have to remind you we don't know for a fact that Atlantis was 9000 years before Solon. Atalante raised an interesting point months ago that 9000 may have just been the largest number that the Greeks knew at the time and that was why it was used. Others seize on this because it was the same time that the Ice Age ended.

I am really loving this discourse...Boreas is a great resource.

I would like to insert here regarding the tropical temperatures you mentioned:

The island of Gotland is composed of microscopic sea creatures which appear only in tropical seas.

The famous Baltic Amber was formed in a tropical period.

Today we also KNOW that they had spent at least 280.000 years of existence inside the Baltic Ocean.

Meanwhile we have also seen the RETURN of a long lost saga - that makes it possible to actually recreate evident facts about their culture and history. Which is our pre-history.

The saga simply says that Atlantis was A PERIOD today called Ice-Time. As the "Family of Aser" became isolated in the North they developed into the Artical gens that we have today. All over. Please also note that their habitat - in the Bothnic Bay and southern Finland, "was sheltered from the northern winds" - by the Scandinavian mountain ridge, that takes the top of the cold wind from North/Nortwest - where cold winds from the Artic and Greenland ice-sheets are stopped by the Scandinavian west-coast, - where the Boat-people - AFTER Atlantis-time - kept a rather rough existence.

ALL articals are descending from this first artic population. Thats why all Sea-Peoples and Agraricals have a genetic string back to the "highest of all persons", namely their original Family - and the inherited line thereof.

The Aser came out of Atlantis ("All-land-ice") - reaching England and the Mediterranean - a good 9000 years ago.

Today the different branches of these articals - also called "Caucasians" - can be found as far south as the - tempered - Atlas mountains and Etiopian plains, - it is evident that the articals spread their branches and/or their culture all over the subartic hemisphere to.

Which means that the sea-peoples like Guanches and Basques (note; As-Tor-i-as) - all have an origin in the artic. Just like the agricultural Berbers, Vandals and Goths. (See also the relation between the Swedish district "Gota-land" and Spains "Gota-lonia". The absense of the latin - where "land" is spoken "Terra" - tells that the Gothic root of "Catalonia" is definite and real.

But it also reminds us about an advanced cultural being destroyed - by man himself.
Like the Etruscans - who was one of the first populations to get massacred - as Italy saw its first "etnical cleansing".
Since then Rome - and other capitols - have had warlords and tyrrants as heads and rulers.

Later we saw that happen to the Kathars of southern France as well - simultaniously as the confused and criminal culture spread even to the farthest north. By 1008-1050 even the Hyperboreans (Fenno-Scandia) where invaded by "the metally ill men, - hunting down and slaugthering entire populations.

500 years later the same culture reached the Americas. With the same devastating result. Thus there is only fragments left - of the old, ancient and highly developed cultures of both Asia, Europe and Meso-America.

This process have destroyed our concept of eonic time - as well as a vast number of sources to our old, historical knowledge. Not to forget the stigmatisation that still goes - reducing and disexplaining all the social, political and economical standards that played an impact and significance in the old, ancient society.

Today classical history is based on the relevance and significance of the major wars - that SEEM to have gone on forever.
But the truth is that modern archaeology actually states that warfare - as such - never happened before the later bronze age, some 2.500 - 3.000 years ago. It may seem that the "origin" was in the area of India/Persia - some 3.500 years ago. As we may see in the aftermath of Krishnas social "revolution" it was founded on a small but grave misconception, which in turn lead to social confusion and strife. As the royals of the country became involved it all ended up in a all-compassing turmoil - where the ancient realms of "Rigveda" and the ideals "Bhagvad Gita" turns into a "greek drama" - as they develop a culture of war and warfare heroism - as decribed in the "Mahabaratha".

Spreading to China, Persia, Hellas, Egypt, Africa and Rome. Before turning north to Europe and deeper down in Africa. Finally the organised crime we normally recall as "Armed Forces" succeded to cross even the big Atlantic - where it still keeps the indigenious Indians - and a few others - in ave. During the march these generations of soldiers have destroyed more than thousands of generations of craftsmen had produced before.

Thanks to this there is not much left from the grandeur of our ancient antiquety. Except from a few - but growing number of hidden treasures that have been found - buried in the ground. In the saga we have specific informations to how the AS-family, - the worlds oldest - had collected enormous quantities of estethics, such as jewlery and art. ALL of it buried - deeply under ground. The entrance to this underground museum is now dug up. The hallway is already emptied for filling mass - about 70 metres long. But we still have about 30 metres left - before we meet an open space - according to the SIR Georadar.

Boreas, that was very interesting material, but it failed to answer the questions I have posed to you about the government of Atlantis, the extent of it's empire (if it even had one), and how long it actually existed. I am sure you're read Plato as well. Any similarities or differences between these two works?

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We DO know that the artic population came out of the Baltics 9.000+ years ago - and spreading to the east, south and west. Today we also KNOW that they had spent at least 280.000 years of existence inside the Baltic Ocean.

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On what is this based, archaeological evidence or the words of the saga?

quote:

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The Aser came out of Atlantis ("All-land-ice") - reaching England and the Mediterranean - a good 9000 years ago. Today the different branches of these articals - also called "Caucasians" - can be found as far south as the - tempered - Atlas mountains and Etiopian plains, - it is evident that the articals spread their branches and/or their culture all over the subartic hemisphere to. Which means that the sea-peoples like Guanches and Basques (note; As-Tor-i-as) - all have an origin in the artic. Just like the agricultural Berbers, Vandals and Goths. (See also the relation between the Swedish district "Gota-land" and Spains "Gota-lonia". The absense of the latin - where "land" is spoken "Terra" - tells that the Gothic root of "Catalonia" is definite and real.

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I think I became lost in this section. First, are you saying that artifacts of the north have been found as far south as the Atlas Mountains? If so, how do we get from that to conclusive proof that the Berbers, Guanches and Basques were definitively related to this culture? This is a key point and, more than any other I would like you to substantiate that claim.

quote:

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But the truth is that modern archaeology actually states that warfare - as such - never happened before the later bronze age, some 2.500 - 3.000 years ago. It may seem that the "origin" was in the area of India/Persia - some 3.500 years ago.

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First Settlement in Egypt
Egypt must now be referred to, and the consideration of this subject should let in a flood of light upon its early history. Although the first settlement in that country was not in the strict sense of the term a colony , it was from the Toltec race that was subsequently drawn the first great body of emigrants intended to mix with and dominate the aboriginal people.

In the first instance it was the transfer of a great Lodge of Initiates. This took place about 100,000 years ago. The golden age of the Toltecs was long past. The first great catastrophe had taken place. The moral degradation of the people and the consequent practice of the "black arts" were becoming more accentuated and widely spread. Purer surroundings for the White Lodge were needed. Egypt was isolated and was thinly peopled, and therefore Egypt was chosen. The settlement so made answered its purpose, and undisturbed by adverse conditions the Lodge of Initiates for nearly 200,000 years did its work.

About 210,000 years ago, when the time was ripe, the Occult Lodge founded an empire--the first "Divine Dynasty" of Egypt--and began to teach the people. Then it was that the first great body of colonists was brought from Atlantis, and some time during the ten thousand years that led up to the second catastrophe, the two great Pyramids of Gizeh were built, partly to provide permanent Halls of Initiation, but also to act as treasure-house and shrine for some great talisman of power during the submergence which the Initiates knew to be impending. Map No. 3 shows Egypt at that date as under water. It remained so for a considerable period, but on its re-emergence it was again peopled by the descendants of many of its old inhabitants who had retired to the Abyssinian mountains (shown in Map No. 3 as an island) as well as by fresh bands of Atlantean colonists from various parts of the world. A considerable immigration of Akkadians then helped to modify the Egyptian type. This is the era of the second "Divine Dynasty" of Egypt--the rulers of the country being again Initiated Adepts.

The catastrophe of 80,000 years ago again laid the country under water, but this time it was only a temporary wave. When it receded the third "Divine Dynasty"--that mentioned by Manetho--began its rule, and it was under the early kings of this dynasty that the great Temple of Karnak and many of the more ancient buildings still standing in Egypt were constructed. In fact with the exception of the two pyramids no building in Egypt predates the catastrophe of 80,000 years ago.

The final submergence of Poseidonis sent another tidal wave over Egypt. This too, was only a temporary calamity, but it brought the Divine Dynasties to an end, for the Lodge of Initiates had transferred its quarters to other lands.

Various points here left untouched have already been dealt with in the Transaction of the London Lodge, "The Pyramids and Stonehenge."

The Turanians who in the first map period had colonized the northern parts of the land lying immediately to the east of Atlantis, occupied in the second map period its southern shores (which included the present Morocco and Algeria). We also find them wandering eastwards, and both the east and west coasts of the central Asian sea were Peopled by them. Bands of them ultimately moved still further east, and the nearest approximation to the type of this race is to-day to be found in the inland Chinese. A curious freak of destiny must be recorded about one of their western offshoots. Dominated all through the centuries by their more powerful Toltec neighbours, it was yet reserved for a small branch of the Turanian stock to conquer and replace the last great empire that the Toltecs raised, for the brutal and barely civilized Aztecs were of pure Turanian blood.

The Semite emigrations were of two kinds, first, those which were controlled by the natural impulse of the race: second, that special emigration which was effected under the direct guidance of the Manu; for, strange as it may seem, it was not from the Toltecs but from this lawless and turbulent, though vigorous and energetic, sub-race that was chosen the nucleus destined to be developed into our great Fifth or Aryan Race. The reason, no doubt, lay in the Mânasic characteristic with which the number five is always associated. The sub-race of that number was inevitably developing its physical brain power and intellect, although at the expense of the psychic perceptions, while that same development of intellect to infinitely higher levels is at once the glory and the destined goal of our Fifth Root Race.

Dealing first with the natural emigrations we find that in the second map period while still leaving powerful nations on the mother continent, the Semites had spread both west and east--west to the lands now forming the United States, and thus accounting for the Semitic type to be found in some of the Indian races, and east to the northern shores of the neighbouring continent, which combined all there then was of Europe, Africa and Asia. The type of the ancient Egyptians, as well as of other neighbouring nations, was to some extent modified by this original Semite blood; but with the exception of the Jews, the only representatives of comparatively unmixed race at the present day are the lighter coloured Kabyles of the Algerian mountain.

The tribes resulting from the segregation effected by the Manu for the formation of the new Root Race eventually found their way to the southern shores of the Central Asian sea, and there the first great Aryan kingdom was established. When the Transaction dealing with the origin of a Root Race comes to be written, it will be seen that many of the peoples we are accustomed to call Semitic are really Aryan in blood. The world will also be enlightened as to what constitutes the claim of the Hebrews to be considered a "chosen people." Shortly it may be stated that they constitute an abnormal and unnatural link between the Fourth and Fifth Root Races {sic}.[1]

The Akkadians, though eventually becoming supreme rulers on the mother continent of Atlantis, owed their birthplace as we have seen in the second map period, to the neighbouring continent-that part occupied by the basin of the Mediterranean

[1. See W. Williamson's The Great Law, pp. 243-5.]

about the present island of Sardinia being their special home. From this centre they spread eastwards, occupying what eventually became the shores of the Levant, and reaching as far as Persia and Arabia. As we have seen, they also helped to people Egypt. The early Etruscans, the Phoenicians, including the Carthaginians and the Shumero-Akkads, were branches of this race, while the Basques of to-day have probably more of the Akkadian than of any other blood which flows in their veins.

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we are very advaned race,to this day the survivors of atlantean empire live and
trive,as the atlantean nations,maybe
the capital sunken,but thank to thoth
we have new one in khem...........
the colonys of atlantean empire
joined toghter after the sinking
of atlantean capital near azores
and someone steps of our homeland
that is azores,we get angry and
go to war normaly,but i now that
there are allays other options
only to take the war in the last
if there are no options left
i dont want make my fathers
mistake again ,not me......

for glory of atlantean empire
and all fallen atlanteans
rest in peace amen......

one 1 min of quied for all
restless soul of atlanis

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--For The Pride Of --
---Atlantean Race---
---And For our Noble--
-----Ensters-----------
-AkatariusTheWiseOne--

Amazing ancient Gobekli Tepe and Nevali Cori (9600 BC)

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Mesopotamia is usually regarded as the birthplace of civilisation - but it wasn't. It was the birthplace of consistant civilisation. The actual birth of civilisation as we know it is recorded in Turkey. In fact, I'm astonished to stumble on this topic after only a brief reference to a book review in New Scientist.

Forget about Erich Von Daniken, Conspiracy Theory, and Atlanteans for a moment. Let me introduce to you Gobekli Tepe.

I'll risk quoting from other sites, as I don;t want to lose either the references, or the links.

The first link is to this site: http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/1999/126/archaeology.html
Quote:
An ancient place of worship--a cult site carbon-dated to the second half of the 9th millennium B.C.--Gobekli Tepe is as good a point as any to begin a diverse archaeological tour of Turkey, a country astonishingly rich with the remains of scores of civilizations and empires stretching from caveman days to the early 20th century. Put simply, Gobekli Tepe--older than the renowned Anatolian city of Catalhoyuk--is where some of our hunter-gatherer ancestors (who were just starting to settle down and organize into societies) first created sophisticated art for ritual purposes.

"This place is as important as the discovery of 14,000 B.C. cave art in France," says Harald Hauptmann, the team leader and director of the German Archaeological Institute in Istanbul. Gobekli Tepe reflects what the experts say is a turning point from the Epipaleolithic to the Early Neolithic era in upper Mesopotamia--that is, the time when early man was just beginning to control nature, before the advent of food production, until the first domestication of plants and animals. "In this site and the one at Nevali Cori, 45 km northeast of here," says Hauptmann, "we have found an art we never knew before--not on cave walls but in public buildings, with sculpture and painted haut-reliefs [sculpted stone panels]. What we have ascertained is that art is not something someone just invented one day, like the wheel or fire. It has always been an active part of the human psyche, since the very beginning."

In each archaeological digging season, hundreds if not thousands of new and often startling discoveries are made by Turkish and international teams at scores of excavations, providing insights into the earliest days of humanity. "Anatolian Turkey is perhaps the most richly diverse archaeological site anywhere. It reaches from Paleolithic [early Stone Age] to Ottoman," says Oscar White Muscarella, a senior conservator at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, who has been assisting a Turkish team excavating a 9th to 7th century B.C. site once inhabited by Urartians--Bronze Age people who lived near Lake Van, close to the Iranian frontier.

Archaeology today, on the cusp of the 21st century, is not a treasure hunt. It is a painstaking search for cultural context. Sometimes, too, it is a race against time as aspects of modern life--the growing demand for energy and food by an expanding population, and the avarice of private art collectors willing to break the law--put new pressures on old sites. Uncovering clues to how ordinary people lived and how societies developed--what Marie-Henriette Gates, an American professor of archaeology and Bronze Age specialist at Bilkent University in Ankara calls "blue-collar archaeology"--now takes precedence over "golden bowls." The experts' focus has evolved from treasure hunting to people hunting, from the bowls themselves to what was eaten from them, and why. Their findings are prompting revision of the idea that Anatolia was simply a corridor for migrant peoples, rather than a font of civilization in its own right, populated by locals knowledgeable about the wheel, communication, art, agriculture, metallurgy and much more. The bounty is rich in Turkey, and any summary of the Anatolian cornucopia of truly significant discoveries barely scratches the surface. In recent years, for example, the soil has yielded the following:

At Gobekli Tepe, 15 km northeast of the city of Sanliurfa, stand four megalithic limestone pillars, 7 m tall and weighing perhaps 50 tons each. Two of them bear the image of a snarling lion defending what Hauptmann believes to be a cult sanctuary or shrine. Erected without the aid of domesticated animals 6,000 years before giant structures were built in Pharaonic Egypt, the pillars suggest that early Neolithic workers knew how to use poles, boards and pulleys to handle huge stones. Hauptmann's site also features a unique floor relief of a squatting woman--perhaps giving birth--reliefs of a variety of animals, and a field of flint chips, indicating the site also hosted a fairly sophisticated tool- and weapon-producing operation.

A rich collection of small limestone sculptures and clay figures was found at Nevali Cori, as well as life-size limestone figures, providing for the first time an idea of how people in the area worshiped 8,000 years before the birth of Christ. The larger work is animistic, some of it featuring humans and animals in carvings resembling totem poles. The masterpiece of the site is a sculpture of a female head grasped in the talons of a bird. Another, male, head is shaved, with a snake positioned at the back like a braid.

The subject Nevali Cori is also covered on a traveller site here: http://www.theculturedtraveler.com/Archives/JAN2003/Turkey.htm

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The Neolithic Period was an era of major changes in human life. They had such an effect on people’s lifestyle that the period is often referred to as the Neolithic Revolution. The greatest advancement, the invention of agriculture, enabled people to settle in one place rather than rove as hunter-gatherers. By cultivating the land, people were able to live in the same location year-round, which led to establishment of the first planned and organized settlements. Since they needed to remain near their fields in order to produce food, people abandoned caves and other natural shelters and began living in dwellings they had constructed themselves.

Asiatic Turkey was the locale for many significant developments in human life. Many Neolithic cultures flourished there and left behind them sites that give rich clues to their lifestyles and beliefs. Most of them are found in the Central and Southeast regions of Anatolia.

Catalhoyuk, near the modern city of Konya. is the first planned urban development in the world dating back to 7,000 B.C. and covering an area of 32 acres. Each house shared common walls with its neighbors and its entrance was on the roof. The walls, made out of mud-brick and presenting a solid, windowless aspect wherever they faced the city’s outside, formed an effective, continuous defensive rampart. Inside, the house walls were covered with paintings that depicted rich scenes of nature and wildlife. Painted relief sculptures, especially in the form of the Mother Goddess, were popular. Her popularity pointed to a possibly matriarchal society. (Good examples of these sculptures can be seen at the Ankara Anatolian Ancient Civilizations Museum.)

Hacilar is another important center in Central Anatolia, near the modern city of Burdur. There is evidence there of agriculture dating back 9,000 years. Archaeologists have found considerable amounts of wheat, barley and lentils in the houses at Hacilar, giving clues to people’s diet and the history of domesticated foods.

Catalhoyuk and Hacilar are also considered two of the earliest clay pottery centers. The existence of pottery is one very important indirect benefits of the sedentary lifestyle created by the ability to produce food year-round and even amass surpluses. Assured of their ability to eat, and able to feed more than just the people who produced food, these stone-age city dwellers had the opportunity and time invent and create.

Recent excavations near the modern city of Urfa revealed very important facts about the advancements of the Neolithic Period. The first settled life for humans in terms of advanced agricultural knowledge and animal feeding was originally dated at 9,500 B.C. by archaeologists in the "Levant area" of present-day Israel and Lebanon. However, researchers are suggesting that the date should be moved backwards since ancient urban centers around Urfa in upper Mesopotamia now qualify as Neolithic.

The first human settlements there probably took place around the Southeastern Anatolian cities of Urfa and Diyarbakir. Excavations at one of these sites, Nevali Cori, revealed clues that the Neolithic Age had started between 12,000 and 10,000 B.C. in this area, at least 500 years earlier than at Catalhoyuk and Hacilar.. The temple architecture found there gives important clues about the beliefs of the people in that era, as well as their architectural ability. Their use of T-shaped pillars showed an advanced knowledge of how to build strong, load-bearing structures.

The other important site, Gobekli Tepe, shows similarities with Nevali Cori and provides support that earlier advancements in human life had taken place in this region. Rooms excavated at this site have revealed stone pillars decorated with floral and faunal reliefs.

Thank you for the welcome back. Hopefully, we can resume the study of Greek mythology, both here and in the Ancient Mysteries thread, if you're still interested in it. What specific part of what I posted do you object to?

Akata,