It resulted in an 11 page discussion, free of any argument, and was quite productive.

So, I thought, given the arguments of late, that it might be prudent to have the discussion again.

OK.

#1 - We will begin @ the beginning page, and each week, one or more paragraphs (not to exceed 3 unless they are short) will be placed in a separate post, whereby all who wish to participate, can discuss what we are reading. No one may proceed FURTHER than the paragraph, and any previous paragraphs, in discussion.

#2 - NO ARGUMENT, NAME CALLING, OR ANYTHING EQUIVALENT WILL BE PERMITTED IN THIS TOPIC OF DISCUSSION !!! There will be NO TOLERANCE of this for any reason.

#3 - Any, and ALL translations may be discussed, BUT LINKS MUST BE PROVIDED FOR THEM so that all can assess the translations.
If a link does not exist, then it will not be aceptable.

#4 - RESPECT will be expected at ALL times, regardless of one's theory.

I am hoping that we can have a frank, open discussion, as before, w/o problems.

Thank you.

------------------
"Love your enemies ! It drives 'em nuts !!" Anonymus

If you have any questions or complaints or even just want to chat, e-mail me @ the following: (Just make sure you put "AR" in the subject line) as well as your user name on AR. Otherwise, it will be deleted. Thank you. Kim

Smiley4554@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by Smiley4554 (edited 08-05-2004).]

quote:

---

Hermocrates: And we too, Socrates, as Timaeus says, will not be wanting in enthusiasm; and there is no excuse for not complying with your request. As soon as we arrived yesterday at the guest-chamber of Critias, with whom we are staying, or rather on our way thither, we talked the matter over, and he told us an ancient tradition, which I wish, Critias, that you would repeat to Socrates, so that he may help us to judge whether it will satisfy his requirements or not.

Critias: I will, if Timaeus, who is our other partner, approves.

Timaeus: I quite approve.

Critias: Then listen, Socrates, to a tale which, though strange, is certainly true, having been attested by Solon, who was the wisest of the seven sages. He was a relative and a dear friend of my great-grandfather, Dropides, as he himself says in many passages of his poems; and he told the story to Critias, my grandfather, who remembered and repeated it to us. There were of old, he said, great and marvellous actions of the Athenian city, which have passed into oblivion through lapse of time and the destruction of mankind, and one in particular, greater than all the rest. This we will now rehearse. It will be a fitting monument of our gratitude to you, and a hymn of praise true and worthy of the goddess, on this her day of festival.

---

quote:

---

Socrates: Very good. And what is this ancient famous action of the Athenians, which Critias declared, on the authority of Solon, to be not a mere legend, but an actual fact?

Critias: I will tell an old-world story which I heard from an aged man; for Critias, at the time of telling it, was as he said, nearly ninety years of age, and I was about ten. Now the day was that day of the Apaturia which is called the Registration of Youth, at which, according to custom, our parents gave prizes for recitations, and the poems of several poets were recited by us boys, and many of us sang the poems of Solon, which at that time had not gone out of fashion.

---

CRITIAS
http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/Atlantis/critias_page1.html

quote:

---

Timaeus: How thankful I am, Socrates, that I have arrived at last, and, like a weary traveller after a long journey, may be at rest! And I pray the being who always was of old, and has now been by me revealed, to grant that my words may endure in so far as they have been spoken truly and acceptably to him; but if unintentionally I have said anything wrong, I pray that he will impose upon me a just retribution, and the just retribution of him who errs is that he should be set right. Wishing, then, to speak truly in future concerning the generation of the gods, I pray him to give me knowledge, which of all medicines is the most perfect and best. And now having offered my prayer I deliver up the argument to Critias, who is to speak next according to our agreement..

---

[This message has been edited by Smiley4554 (edited 08-05-2004).]

Hermacrates & Socrates were staying with Critias in his guest room. They had apparently been discussing a particular matter, and asked Critias to tell Socrates in order to see if it met his requirements.

Critias said OK.

Timaeus approved.

Solon, the wisest of the 7 sages (very important here):
http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/SevenSages.html#Solon
http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/SevenSages.html#Lists

Solon was a relative of Critias, as well as his Grandfather's friend.

Critias' grandfather told him (and maybe other family members?)

Solon recounts about Athens, so far back that time cannot remember.

Page 2

Socrates seems interested, and asks what action could it have been that would make it fact and not a legend.

Critias tells him an old-world story. The one he heard it from was about 90 years old, and Critias was only 10. The same day was that of the "Registration of Youth" where poets were given prizes for recitations. He said that many sang the poems of Solon who were still the "in" thing.

Critias:

Timaeus begins with how he's glad to have arrived, and he is pooped. He also asks "the being" to help him speak true words that will be acceptable to him. He also hopes that he will be forgiven if he says something wrong, and punish him accordingly.

Simply put, he is basically saying that if he says something wrong, he wants this "being" to make sure he gets it right the next time by punishing him.

This was very important in its beginning. Timaeus is actually calling down the wrath of a "being" whom he believes in if he so much as tells a falsehood.

quote:
This we will now rehearse. It will be a fitting monument of our gratitude to you, and a hymn of praise true and worthy of the goddess, on this her day of festival.
endquote

I think emphasis has been laid here on the “lapse of time” indicating remoteness in antiquity and “destruction of mankind” that could have made it further remote in understanding or deciphering.

Further as expected for the noblemen of the yore, all these storytellers were supposed to be “for the truth”, “of the truth” and “by the truth”. I mean they should be basically understood as such, with due incorporation of the spirit of scientific reasoning.

It was a festival for Athena. I agree - it definitely refers to an extreme time lapse, not just a couple of thousand years.

QUOTE>> One of these rites originally consisted in carrying a new peplus (the state robe of Athena) through the streets to the Acropolis to clothe the ancient carved image of the goddess, a ceremonial known in other cities and represented by the writer of the Iliad (vi. 87) as being in use at Troy; but it is probable that this rite was afterwards restricted to the great penteteric festival. The peplus was a costly, saffron-colored garment, embroidered with scenes from the battle between the gods and giants, in which Athena had taken part. At least as early as the 3rd century B.C. the custom was introduced of spreading the peplus like a sail on the mast of a ship, which was rolled on a machine in the procession. Even the religious rites were celebrated with much greater splendour at the Greater Panathenaea. <<UNQUOTE

That festival may be in memory of a great valour and a great victory.

QUOTE >> PANATHENAEA, the oldest and most important of the Athenian festivals. It was originally a religious celebration, founded by Erechtheus (Erichthonius), in honor of Athena Polias, the patron goddess of the city. It is said that when Theseus united the whole land under one government he made the festival of the city-goddess common to the entire country, and changed the older name Athenaea to Panathenaea (Plutarch, Tljeseus, 24). << UNQUOTE

So Athenaea of “Athena Polias” was changed in to Panathenaea. This would have also indicated Trans-national or Trans-regional influence of Athena.

Why a particular color “Saffron” for Athena? This color is a variant shade of more popular colors like Orange, Red, Pink and yellow. So it could have been any other color as well. This makes me to think that Athena was dressed in Saffron only because this would have been considered as the color code of the Gods. Here I am not meaning or confusing it with any skin colors.

quote from: http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/engl/generic_frame.html?Croc_sat.html

Saffron is the triploid form of a species found in Eastern Greece, Crocus cartwrightianus; it probably appeared first in Crete. An origin in Western or Central Asia, although often suspected, has been disproved by botanical research. (Plant. Syst. Evol., 128, 89, 1977)

Because of being triploid, saffron is necessarily sterile, and its beautiful flowers cannot produce any seeds; propagation is possible only via corms. Distribution over larger distance requires human help, and so it's surprising that there is evidence that is was used by the Sumerians, more than 5000 years ago. This would prove very ancient trade between the Eastern Mediterranean and Mesopotamia.

Today, saffron is cultivated from the Western Mediterranean (Spain) to India (Kashmir). Spain and Iran are the largest producers, accounting together for more than 80% of the world's production, which is approximately 300 tons per year.

In Europe, saffron production is almost limited to the Mediterranean; Spanish (La Mancha) saffron is generally considered the best. In much smaller scale, saffron is also cultivated in Italy and Greece (Crete).

Safron is sterile; just as Athena would not allow Hephaestus to impregnate her.

Please see the opinion of Chefdepot:
http://www.chefdepot.net/saffronfacts.htm

QUOTE>> Saffron is the stigma part of the crocus flower (Crocus sativus).
The plant is indigenous to Western Asia and has been cultivated for thousands of years. With the opening of East – West trading saffron was introduced to Europe. The French, Spanish and Italians were the first to use it extensively in their cooking.
The world’s largest producer of saffron is Iran followed by Greece, Spain and India.
Saffron is one of the world’s most expensive spices since it is hand picked and handled very delicately.
It requires over 80,000 individual flowers to produce a full pound of saffron! << UNQUOTE

As per the links provided earlier in your above post:

In Sanskrit Saffron is translated as Kumkuma, Kashmiirajan, Kashmiiran, Nagakeshara

The Arabic cognate of Hebrew karkom [כרכם] is kurkum. This sounds very similar to Kumkum of Sanskrit.

Perhaps you have rightly pointed that Purple may be the color of royalty. This because, Saffron is the color of Gods and sages and associated with self-sacrifice, renunciation and anointing. So as you said this theological color may be a complimentary to the materialistic royal purple color.

I do not remember if Plato has associated any specific color with reference to Atlantis. Otherwise it would have been made somewhat easier for us. Or a further bone of contention? Anyway as we are able to link up Athena with saffron, we can assume that mostly Atlantean Gods may be having same color code. Or if Atlantean Gods would have considered themselves primarily as the kings, then royal purple could have been their color. White and yellow may be other good contenders, but we are yet to know the reality in this matter.

I request all our friends and scholars to keep an eye on similar color codes of various other ancient cultures.

Colors of the Gods..........

Gabriel proceeded to Jerusem, and establishing himself on the sphere dedicated to the Father -- the same Universal Father whose personality Lucifer and Satan had questioned -- in the presence of the forgathered hosts of loyal personalities, he displayed the banner of Michael, the material emblem of the Trinity government of all creation, the three azure blue concentric circles on a white background.

P1016:5,Ê93:3.3 The symbol of the three concentric circles[b], which Melchizedek adopted as the insignia of his bestowal, a majority of the people interpreted as standing for the three kingdoms of men, angels, and God. And they were allowed to continue in that belief; very few of his followers ever knew that these three circles were emblematic of the infinity, eternity, and universality of the Paradise Trinity of divine maintenance and direction;

P606:1,Ê53:5.5 [b]The Lucifer emblem was a banner of white with one red circle, in the center of which a black solid circle appeared.

P1015:1,Ê93:2.1 It was 1,973 years before the birth of Jesus........P1015:5,Ê93:2.5 In personal appearance, Melchizedek resembled the then blended Nodite and Sumerian peoples, being almost six feet in height and possessing a commanding presence. He spoke Chaldean and a half dozen other languages. He dressed much as did the Canaanite priests except that on his breast he wore an emblem of three concentric circles, the Satania symbol of the Paradise Trinity. In the course of his ministry this insignia of three concentric circles became regarded as so sacred by his followers that they never dared to use it, and it was soon forgotten with the passing of a few generations.
http://urantiabook.org/newbook/ppr093_3.html

Now, I don't know about anyone else, but when I was ten years old there is not too much that I was able to assimilate in a perspective that had any basis to reality as an adult. I fail to see how Critias was much different from any other 10 year old kid. Maybe they did have oratory contests and he was a better parrot than most, but there seems to be a GREAT margin for error in this hearsay story handed down from so many different sources.

You had good suggestions about the color usage.

TIMAEUS

quote:

---

One of our tribe, either because he thought so or to please Critias, said that in his judgment Solon was not only the wisest of men, but also the noblest of poets. The old man, as I very well remember, brightened up at hearing this and said, smiling: Yes, Amynander, if Solon had only, like other poets, made poetry the business of his life, and had completed the tale which he brought with him from Egypt, and had not been compelled, by reason of the factions and troubles which he found stirring in his own country when he came home, to attend to other matters, in my opinion he would have been as famous as Homer or Hesiod, or any poet.

And what was the tale about, Critias? said Amynander.

About the greatest action which the Athenians ever did, and which ought to have been the most famous, but, through the lapse of time and the destruction of the actors, it has not come down to us.

---

CRITIAS

quote:

---

Critias: And I, Timaeus, accept the trust, and as you at first said that you were going to speak of high matters, and begged that some forbearance might be shown to you, I too ask the same or greater forbearance for what I am about to say. And although I very well know that my request may appear to be somewhat and discourteous, I must make it nevertheless. For will any man of sense deny that you have spoken well?

I can only attempt to show that I ought to have more indulgence than you, because my theme is more difficult; and I shall argue that to seem to speak well of the gods to men is far easier than to speak well of men to men: for the inexperience and utter ignorance of his hearers about any subject is a great assistance to him who has to speak of it, and we know how ignorant we are concerning the gods. But I should like to make my meaning clearer, if Timaeus, you will follow me. All that is said by any of us can only be imitation and representation. For if we consider the likenesses which painters make of bodies divine and heavenly, and the different degrees of gratification with which the eye of the spectator receives them, we shall see that we are satisfied with the artist who is able in any degree to imitate the earth and its mountains, and the rivers, and the woods, and the universe, and the things that are and move therein, and further, that knowing nothing precise about such matters, we do not examine or analyze the painting; all that is required is a sort of indistinct and deceptive mode of shadowing them forth.

---

you wrote:
I agree about the low credibility of the transmission line for Atlantis. An 80 or 90 year old man may be losing his memory to old age. And a 10 year old may be too young to separate fact from fantasy.

I do not understand how is that a training group can be done of the Timaeus and the Critias without having in account the oldest texts known the Greek manuscripts and in Latin?

He is very little scientific and very little serious to try to study the Timaeus and the Critias without considering the so advanced studies that it has made the Spanish scientist Georgeos Diaz-Montexano on the base of the primary sources, that is to say, on the oldest documents known writings in Greek and Latin Plato. I have taken a disagreeable surprise when verifying as the so great contributions of scriptologist Spanish Georgeos Diaz-Montexano are not considered as the most serious and rigorous study than never has been made on the oldest sources known the Timaeus and the Critias.

Why this rejection towards the investigations and contributions of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano?

I regret to say that your post is completely off the subject of this topic.

Please stay absolutely on the subject. If you wish to join into the subject, we are studying it paragraph by paragraph using ONLY fully, completed translations of these 2 works.

Unless there is another complete translation to add, this topic is strictly limited to this information.

The problem is that even an adult can't remember everything either, so would it not follow that Solon's rememberances might also be a little off?

But, let's face it. If we strip away the "fluff", we have a very simple & basic story of a war between 2 great countries, and of the 2, the greatest was destroyed suddenly.

That is what these paragraphs mean to me. That it was only by repetition that they were preserved, and most children to the point, and beyond of writing, had these events drilled over and over and over, thereby eliminating most errors.

I looked up "Apaturia", where Critias first recited the Alantis story.

The Apaturia festival was an event when people registered the children which had been born in the previous year. On the third day of the festival, schoolboys were expected to recite things, as entertainment.

quote from: http://12.1911encyclopedia.org/A/AP/APATURIA.htm
On this day also it was the custom for boys still at school to declaim pieces of
poetry, and to receive prizes (Plato, Timaeus; 21 B).
endquote

Did a 10 year old boy-Critias polish up the unfinished short poem which Solon/Dropides had left behind?

(Georgeos claims that an early composition is still embedded in Critias.)

I have no doubt, though, that each generation did embellish it. That's what we are here to do - to eliminate embellishments to get to the root."

My reply is that you are being guilty of exactly what we are talking about. Embellishment and memory. How do you know that these 10 year old kids " had these events drilled over and over and over, thereby eliminating most errors.
You do not know this, this is your embellishment.

Besides this, it is not only incredible that a 10 year old kid remembered everything perfectly like a tape recorder, it is very nearly impossible for this to happen with a story of such length and detail. It defies the imagination of even the mindless.

On top of this, this line of reasoning and logic refers not only to this paragraph you posted and this war between two powers, but it is fundamental to the entire narrative of Plato about the entire Atlantis story. It is wayyy beyond a reasonable doubt.

Besides this fact is the fact of the 90 year old telling the story to a 10 year old and as Atalante pointed out the 90 year old may be losing a bit of his grasp of reality, and besides that, he heard it from Salon and most likely altered the story from that viewpoint as well.

There seems to be enough embellishment to the story already without you adding more. besides all that , you are doing fine.

One other *point* I'd like to make is that the written form of recollection is only a two dimensional form, in any live recitation as in the oratory of 10 year old Plato or any of the other parties involved the third dimension of gestures; emotions; and animated facial expression is also quite important. For example, (and for Smiley especially) the gesture of pointing in the following changes the entire meaning.

""But, Master, how shall we know about these things? how shall we be ready for the king's invitation? what sign will you give us whereby we shall know that you are the Son of God?" And when the Master heard this, he said, "Only one sign shall be given you." And then, pointing to his own body, he continued, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." But they did not understand him, and as they dispersed, they talked among themselves, saying, "Almost fifty years has this temple been in building, and yet he says he will destroy it and raise it up in three days." Even his own apostles did not comprehend the significance of this utterance, but subsequently, after his resurrection, they recalled what he had said. "

http://urantiabook.org/newbook/ppr173_5.html

So, Smiley, what can we learn from this example about how things can be confused by not "being there". What did we miss from the actual presentation of Critias and Plato and Salon? What meanings did we distort? The biggest one I can think of is the Atlantic ocean distortion. In the above example I'll show you what became of the distortion of the pointing gesture.

"Shortly after the beginning of the testimony of the false witnesses, Annas arrived and took his seat beside Caiaphas. Annas now arose and argued that this threat of Jesus to destroy the temple was sufficient to warrant three charges against him:

1. That he was a dangerous traducer of the people. That he taught them impossible things and otherwise deceived them.
2. That he was a fanatical revolutionist in that he advocated laying violent hands on the sacred temple, else how could he destroy it?
3. That he taught magic inasmuch as he promised to build a new temple, and that without hands.

Already had the full Sanhedrin agreed that Jesus was guilty of death- deserving transgressions of the Jewish laws, but they were now more concerned with developing charges regarding his conduct and teachings which would justify Pilate in pronouncing the death sentence upon their prisoner. They knew that they must secure the consent of the Roman governor before Jesus could legally be put to death. And Annas was minded to proceed along the line of making it appear that Jesus was a dangerous teacher to be abroad among the people. "
*****

What of Plato the 10 year old? How was his later recitation embellished and misunderstood by having only his "words" and faulty memory? Pick any event from your own past of equal length to the Atlantis story, when you were 10 and try to remember it word for word like Plato, Critias and Salon tried to do and think how ludicrous it is to take Plato's words exactly.

Atalante,
you are remarkable. An extraordinary scientist. It is a pleasure following your research. If you studied and understood the Urantia papers and were able to incorporate the information into your mental framework, you would be very scary indeed.

quote:
"I looked up "Apaturia", where Critias first recited the Alantis story."
"Did a 10 year old boy-Critias polish up the unfinished short poem which Solon/Dropides had left behind?"

.

quote:

---

My great-grandfather, Dropides, had the original writing, which is still in my possession, and was carefully studied by me when I was a child. Therefore if you hear names such as are used in this country, you must not be surprised, for I have told how they came to be introduced. The tale, which was of great length, began as follows:-

---

It's also worth noting that, in Timaeus, the original account is referred to as a "sacred Egyptian record recovered from oblivion."

Smiley made it perfectly clear right in the beginning what the rules were. If you can't abide by the rules then you can't play.
If you forgot the rules then go back and read them.
Better yet, I will print them out for you because you apparently are too lazy to do it yourself.

Here !!!!!!!

#1 - We will begin @ the beginning page, and each week, one or more paragraphs (not to exceed 3 unless they are short) will be placed in a separate post, whereby all who wish to participate, can discuss what we are reading. No one may proceed FURTHER than the paragraph, and any previous paragraphs, in discussion.

the next rule is to be courteous.
Do I also have to spell that out for you??????

Anyway Chronos, you said"...which is still in my possession, and was carefully studied by me when I was a child." Just the nature of this implies that Plato is working from memory and he hasn't looked at the thing since he was " a child". Besides that fact, we all have studied things as a child, consider your first 10 years of school, or in Plato's case he must have been in about 4th or 5th grade, How much do you remember from any one thing that you studied for hours at 10? I venture to say........ nothing.

My guess is that one particular embellishment was that 300 stadia became 3000 to impress everyone. And that Bob Sarmast is in exactly the right place.

good to see you back

.

altlante qoute-(Georgeos claims that an early composition is still embedded in Critias.)

I would go with that

quote from: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0180;query=section%3D%23720;layout=;loc=Criti.%20108a
Critias 108b
I forewarn you, however, my dear Critias, of the mind of your audience,--how that [=due to the way in which] the former poet [Critias the Elder] won marvellous applause from it, so that you will require an extraordinary measure of indulgence if you are to prove capable of following in his steps.

Here is what the Bury translation says:

So, not only the fact that this was a remarkable story worth remembering as much detail as possible from his early age of 10, but he also marvelled Dropides writings for years to come, therefore qualifying Critias Jr as a "master" of the story.

Rajesh, as for the color of Atlantis, it seems that AZURE BLUE was common for the robes of the Kings, and also as Atalante pointed out regarding the Murex shells and their purple color adopted by the Phoenicians, then perhaps we could adopt an Atlantean flag of Blue,Purple,and Gold for the Sun. Which of course the mystery of Circular emblems would come from the shape of the planets and Sun such as On.

And also to consider since the Atlantean age was in the time of Leo, which also relates to Gold and that The Temple of Poseidon was built in the spot where they first saw the light.

I would paint the Atlantean flag Blue, with Gold rings and a purple cross with Orichalcum borders.

Thanx for extending the horizon of Atlantean color-coding. We should remember it, in case it is to be found useful for Atlantean research sometimes in future.

Regarding brain development 90% of brain cells grow by the age of 3 years and 99% grow by age of 7 years. These cells start reducing by the age of 35 years. However the dying cells transfer their important data and functions to the remaining cells.
So by the acts of repetition, interest or practice the things can be learned enough at the age of 10 and kept remembered at 90. I mean it is not impossible.

Further as Respected Riven has already indicated about the presence of a hard copy with Critias for hard reference. So I think now we shall basically agree at least on this. However free thinking and discussion always leads to something better and new.

Riven has already made my point for me. The writings still were in Critias' possession. I believe whatever translation we use, they all say that. I also gather from the dialogue that Solon,not Critias was the one to translate the Egyptian names to Greek ones again.

This brings two points of mind if you ask me:

*All the details concerning Atlantis that reseachers have been having so much joy playing with over the years should be given an added credibility.

*If there is an error, blame Solon, for he was the original translator.

This now raises the question, instead of a ten year old boy, how learned a man was Solon? Could he understand ancient Egyptian? Of course, if anything that has been written about him is to be believed. Since we also know that Solon, not a ten year old boy was the one who translated the account, we can also assume that Solon's written account was accurate, to his knowledge, at least, and easily understood. Ancient Greek is perhaps one of the most widely understood of all the ancient languages, there would be very little chance of a mistake if someone stumbled onto the account in writing as, say Plato (who, of course was Greek)

CONCERNING THE PLACEMENT OF ATLANTIS:

*Did both the Greeks and the Egyptians know of the Atlantic Ocean at 570 b.c., the time of Solon? I would like to suggest that they did. Both the Egyptians and the Greeks had dealings with the Phoenicians, who, we know, sailed around western edge of Africa years earlier. The Egyptians had a name for it, the "Western Ocean." I believe the Greek name for it, since they were the ones to name the ocean in the first place, not the Romans, who are commonly given credit for it.

*Solon died before he could compile the work in a poem (according to Plutarch), yet
personally, I happen to believe that others saw the writings over the years, before Plato. Interestingly enough there is an earlier work entitled "Atlantis" by Hellenicus that existed at the time that Plato himself was a child. Hellenicus died around 410 b.c. It is often claimed that this work has little to do with Plato's Atlantis, but since the work is only a fragment, who can say?

According to the Egyptians, the account was a sacred historical record, so the Greeks themselves may not have had general knowledge of it. Yet, Solon, important as he was, would have had his writings studied, even after his death, by the more learned of Greek society, such as Plato, and these writings surely would have been uncovered.

Of course, there's also the continual suggestion that Plato made this all up, but this was not in his character. Leave alone Timaeus and Critias for the moment, very seldom in his writings does Plato make up, wholesale, a creation along the lines of the Atlantis/Athens story. Most of his works follow along the lines of taking artistic license with actual events,, witness "the death of Socrates." He has "the Republic," of course, but an argument could also be made that, in that case, to create a similar account in Timaeus and Critias would have been redundant and unneccessary.

Here is a radical new view of the dialogues for everyone to consider: at the end of his life, Plato meant to write a literal history of what he knew of his universe, and both dialogues are his attempt to comprehend the world around him. If we would have had the presumed third chapter in the trilogy, Hermocrates, I presume it would have taken us up unto the classical age of the Greeks, Plato's age. If that was the case, if Plato meant to write his ownliteral history of his world, then there would be even less reason to insert a fictional account in the middle of it, invoke Solon's name or to suggest that the story was "true" as he does time and again.

He was considered one of the 7 wise men.
http://www.e-classics.com/solon.htm#1
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/S/SE/SEVEN_WISE_MEN_OF_GREECE_THE.htm
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0844573.html
http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/SevenSages.html#Solon

Solon was also known as the "Lawmaker of Athens" as well.

Obviously, it is quite clear that he was one of the most revered & learned men of his time.

I agree. It was he who did the translations with which he relayed the story of Atlantis.

Like Plato, I also believe that he was not a total "dweeb" in being able to read, understand, and to accurately translate the papers in his possession given his status as well in not only the community at the time, but the world.

All of this is enough to convince me that he, too, did not make an error in the original translations.
http://www.bunkerco.com/masters/chap3/

quote:

---

He made a law
that no son was required to care for his father if he had not been taught a
trade and ordered the trades should be recognized as honorable. A rule that
Solon took from Amasis of Egypt was that every man's means of subsistence
was to be examined each year and the idle chastised.

---

Also, Solon was well travelled, and apparently was able to converse quite well with many other country's great men.

The simple fact that Solon was able to Take a rule from Amasis of Egypt proves that he had no problem at all with translations of Egyptian languages.

And, Absonite

quote:

---

My reply is that you are being guilty of exactly what we are talking about. Embellishment and memory. How do you know that these 10 year old kids " had these events drilled over and over and over, thereby eliminating most errors.
You do not know this, this is your embellishment.

---

I have great doubt that any 10 year old would embellish something the he recited with such accurate details - more than once. However, if the words such as "most beautiful" or equivalent could have been an embellishment.

But, let's look @ recitation for a moment. Until ANY history was written down, most cultures preserved their memories by recitation. And, they did not do it for just entertainment, but also as a way to preserve the unwritten history.

Let's look @ it this way. For young children, even today, getting them to understand & remember something is really hard. So, we have a small amount of recitation today, by giving them poems to memorize - verbatim.. We make the rest of learning, or try, fun by giving them incentives to learn.

The only way these youngsters learned anything prior to the written word was completely by recitation from their elders -verbatim.

As ages went on, recitations became longer & longer as events & deeds were added to them, and some embellishments were undoubtedly added, but not enough to shroud the meaning of the subject of the recitations.

What I'm trying to say is that recitation was learned VERBATIM - not willy nilly - because it was their ONLY WAY TO PRESERVE their heritage, and what went before.

It is through this method that we now have available to us THE COMPLETELY ORIGINAL SAGA dating from THE BEGINNING preceding Ice-time, known as the Bock saga.

The Assyrians conquored Phoenicia in the first half of the 7th century BC.

But something very important happend in the SECOND half of the 7th century BC. The Greek island of Samos, supposedly the birthplace and/or original home of the Greek supreme Olympian goddess Hera, became the dominant naval traders in the Mediterranean. Samos pretty much replaced Phoenica. And according to this link, Samos established colonies in both Egypt and Tartessos Spain, etc.

quote from: http://www.greek-tourism.gr/samos/historyuk.htm

Until the 7th century there is no evidence of population changes taking place on the island. During this period the island takes part in the Lilantio war and in the middle of the same century it takes part in the B´Mycenaean war, with King of Amfikrati. During the second half of the same century, Samos created colonies in Samothraki, Amorgo, and in Tartisso, city of southeastern Spain. Newer colonies are consisted of Nagis and Kelenderis on the coasts of Kikilia, the colonies Perintho, Iraio Wall and Bisanthi, and the coast of Propondis. Also significant colonies were founded in Lower Italy, Sikelia and Egypt.
endquote

This was puting a solid Greek presence in the middle Mediterraneran, and a preliminary Greek presence (ca 600 BC) in the region which Plato's Atlantis story calls Gadeira.

The island of Samos was in its golden period around 550 BC when it became the first shipping power to build 50 oared commercial boats (similar to what historians call Pentaconters).

Therefore, Dropides was alive, and he was embellishing the legend of Atlantis during the era when Samos began building its 50-oared boats. Evidently Carthage felt threatened by this increasing Greek presence in the central and western Med, so Carthage decided to blockade the Straights of Gibralter.

Also around 600 BC, a greek poet from Sicily named Stesichorus wrote epic poetry, entitled (roughly) Geryones. Today only about a hundred fragments of Stesichorus survive. But this is enough to tell us that his greatest epic poem involved the myth where Geryon travels to the land of the Hesperides and to the general region of Gadeira.

"A lot of Nordic Folklore, such as the "Väinömöinen" with its 20.000 poems (sic...), was NOT written down before the start of the last century. There are many reasons for that. One is that the poetic (read "cultural") value of a colorful song never can be DULY expressed in black letters on white paper.

Another and more important reason is well explained by the Boxstöm Family, as to WHY this peculiar saga diminished and ended up being kept by only two families alone. It also explains why it had to be kept in the privacy of the family, up to a time that was more peaceful than the last two centuries, when strife, war and civil unrest still exploited and rampaged Eurasia.

By 1949 though, they could finally start preparing for a broad presentation, with an indepth study of each and every point within a tremendous magnitude of historical facts, sequences, stories and explanations.

According to the tradition and the duty - did the oldest son in the family, at the age of seven, start to learn the long, long family-saga. Additionally the family had to try their best to prepare the growing youngster for the challenge it would be the day he was asked to go public with this story.

By 1984 he had been learning all the essential basics of the saga, and proving the skills neccesary to communicate it and explain it - without "adding or subtracting anything, not even the tiniest hint". At the age of 42 Ior Bock got the message from the prior of the family, - at the time his mother - to start talking to the reseachers at the Institute of Folklore about the Saga - and to the State Archaeologist explaining the existence of cultural objects from the ancient Finland hidden underground in (before) the swaying course of midieval history. (The exact locating of historical treauries - from the old Finnish kingdom - is a complete and conclusive proof of the validity and significance
of the Family-saga.)

To succeed with such a mission requires more than an excellent memory. It needs a very high degree of self-disipline, besides a strictly fact-oriented, confidental and clear understanding of ALL the material in question.

Not before 1991 did we see the first papers about this saga and its content. First 1996 did a major part of it become published, - but only in Finnish. But we had to wait until 2001 before the first written information was published in English. On the inter-net, and only there.

But, - I hope that the investigative participants on this forum may understand that this saga-material is principally different to the academic "theories", "views" or "discoveries" that arise from re-reading, cross-reading or re-interpretate the classical sources of the Atlantis legend.

Placed in the exact middle of the eastern and western cultures of Eurasia; the Finns are a historical fact. So is their language and their history, their myths and legends.
Thus we have to take THEIR genuine legends and myths AS serious as Platos relatively short descriptions of the same topic, namly Atlantis.

Anyone who cares to examine the Finnish legend we will find a complex, still minuite description that gives a clear-cut, historical explanation of Atlantis - far more complete than the fragments found after Plato.

Please also understand that the validity of the latter is no more than the former. Just because we happened to hear the story of Plato first doesn't mean his more right or valid than the second source. But, on the other side - evryone with a basic insight in the classical sources of this legend - will have a good basis to comprehend/ understand the more exstensive and historical picture of Atlantis, as we find it in the legends of the Finnish Folklore.
We just need to digest the surprise...

TIMAEUS

quote:

---

Tell us, said the other, the whole story, and how and from whom Solon heard this veritable tradition. He replied:

In the Egyptian Delta, at the head of which the river Nile divides, there is a certain district which is called the district of Sais, and the great city of the district is also called Sais, and is the city from which King Amasis came. The citizens have a deity for their foundress; she is called in the Egyptian tongue Neith, and is asserted by them to be the same whom the Hellenes call Athene; they are great lovers of the Athenians, and say that they are in some way related to them.

---

CRITIAS

quote:

---

But when a person endeavours to paint the human form we are quick at finding out defects, and our familiar knowledge makes us severe judges of any one who does not render every point of similarity. And we may observe the same thing to happen in discourse; we are satisfied with a picture of divine and heavenly things which has very little likeness to them; but we are more precise in our criticism of mortal and human things. Wherefore if at the moment of speaking I cannot suitably express my meaning, you must excuse me, considering that to form approved likenesses of human things is the reverse of easy. This is what I want to suggest to you, and at the same time to beg, Socrates, that I may have not less, but more indulgence conceded to me in what I am about to say. Which favour, if I am right in asking, I hope that you will be ready to grant.

Socrates: Certainly, Critias, we will grant your request, and we will grant the same by anticipation to Hermocrates, as well as to you and Timaeus; for I have no doubt that when his turn comes a little while hence, he will make the same request which you have made. In order, then, that he may provide himself with a fresh beginning, and not be compelled to say the same things over again, let him understand that the indulgence is already extended by anticipation to him. And now, friend Critias, I will announce to you the judgment of the theatre. They are of opinion that the last performer was wonderfully successful, and that you will need a great deal of indulgence before you will be able to take his place.

Hermocrates: The warning, Socrates, which you have addressed to him, I must also take to myself. But remember, Critias, that faint heart never yet raised a trophy; and therefore you must go and attack the argument like a man. First invoke Apollo and the Muses, and then let us hear you sound the praises and show forth the virtues of your ancient citizens.

---

I think we'll agree that, even if the knowledge of the ancient Greeks in terms of their geography was not wholly accurate, they at least knew which body of water the Atlantic Ocean was. Solon, being one of the most learned of his time, a man that both the rich and poor of Athens looked to to sort out their differences, would have certainly known this.

A quote from the passage Smiley just posted:

quote:

---

This we will now rehearse. It will be a fitting monument of our gratitude to you, and a hymn of praise true and worthy of the goddess, on this her day of festival.

---

Solon, Dropides, and the Elder Critias each served as an Archon of Athens, so they were all respected men. And they probably had a good general knowledge of the events were affecting Athens in their respective eras.

However, in regard to the "Atlantic" ocean, Ionian geography was improving rapidly during the 6th century BC.

Here is the most advanced map which was known among Ionians ca 600-525 BC. It does not contain any "Atlantic" Ocean.
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ancient%20Web%20Pages/107.html