Logic alone tells us that such efforts, skills and abilities requires a completed ("conscious") knowledge of geography, oceanology and meterology, as well as highly advanced skills of carpentry, boat- and SHIP-building, as well as the ability to navigate, using a highly techical/scientifical understanding of the nature of our planet, as well as the actual relationship between the positions of the different "road-marks" of the sky and the actual geography of THEIR spinning globe.

It may be noteworthy to mention that WE do not have their knowledge - as such - anymore. Today we have OUR knowledge, which is obviously even more exact and minuite in regards to geography and navigation. But we may remind ourselves that the this exact understanding and knowledge of the complete surface of the whole globe - by conventional understanding of history is no older than a few centuries. Anyone studying old maps are getting the opinion that no chart of the world - as one - had ever existed, until the beginning of the 20th century, as airplanes could confirm the first "realistic maps" exisisting - to our knowledge.

Today we may understand that the old sea-people must have had the same conceptual understanding, based on the same facts that constitutes the modern maps of today - the globe itself. Now, we arrive at the simple consequence that also the Sea-People must have gained their "knowledge of the nature" by a scientific process of exploration, measurement and description of the globe.

We may also assume that the Sea-Peoples populating the islands of the Ball-tic Sea and the Altan-tic Oceans were closely related to the Seafarers setling on the island of the "Midle Ocean", i.e. the "MediTerraNe".

When Plato & Co were telling that the Sea-People appeared "9.000 years ago", - they are actually referring to a time-frame that covers the occurence of the Seafarers setling in the N-Atlantics, as well as the Baltic Sea, The White Sea and the Black Sea.

A highly relevant update from present archaeology was published a couple of years ago - titled "Living by The Ocean". This eye-opener is written by BARRY CUNLIFFE, a leading researcher and professor of European Archaeology at Oxford. He is daring to phrase this question in full - proving that we have had surprisingly ancient trade-connections between the North Sea and the Midle Sea. Already 7.000 year ago there was a steady, highly organised relationship established - running trade and communication between the far south and the high north. Via the rivers of Russia and the Black Sea, - or via England/France to Gibraltar.

The two cultures seem to have lived in a "proseperous" and "harmonious" relationship all the way from 7.000 BP to 2.000 BP. The harmony was then broken - by a highly agressive behaviour as the Romans started to invade the people of the north and the peoples of the Sea. Thus we may reccomend the last works of Prof. Cunliffe becomes a great help to get a more real and primary understanding of the culture that spread with the first setlemets known - created by our sea-faring anchestors...

In time he got married with Deianeira and got his own children but in a spout of madness, which Hera had conjured, he killed them all.
One of those children had been named Hyllus.
Later on he got more children with Melite, the daughter of river-god Aeleus.
Again one son was named Hyllus.
This Hyllus became the king of the Phaesians, in the island of Corcyra, present-day Corfu.
Later on he emigrated with some of his people to the Cronian Sea, as is told by Apollonius Rhodius.

This Cronian sea is none other than the Gulf of Finland, according to the British historian Robert Graves.

The reason for the immigration was to trade with amber.
Amber was used in ornaments and it must have been more expensive than gold, since even the Queen of Egypt, Cleopatra, had a necklace made of it.

The Phaesians knew the route to the Gulf of Finland from earlier expeditions they had made.
It started from the head of Adriatic sea.
Amber is still being found at the southern shore of the Gulf of Finland and at the Baltic Sea shores.
It is said to be the tears of the daughters of the sungod, Uden, or the gold of Boreas, north.
The amber has been tested to be from 40 to 120 million years of age, it being most probably resin from pine-trees.
It is being found and mained mostly at 12 meters deep, where there is a layer of it, in Poland.
But why just 12 meters deep?
At that time there must have existed forests of such trees.
Here is a direct link to the Bock Saga, from 40 to 120 million years ago tropical weather and the paradise had existed here.
Sometimes the sea washes some clumps of amber to the shore, after a storm....."

"But history does not mention anything more about the Phaesians, or of their king Hyllus, so the track is lost here."

quote from: http://www.ancientroute.com/Amberoad.htm
Amber reached all corners of the world, known or otherwise. Baltic amber pieces were found with Pharaoh Tutankamon, dating form 1400 BCE. We can assume it was also included with earlier Pharaohs, and later lost. Amber from 900 BCE has turned up in Mesopotamia.

Man began to alter amber with carvings, and using amber in ritual at an early date. Amber is found included with the grave goods of important persons. From this time forward it possessed an intrinsic value, much as incense in the Middle East. Amber was used as a good luck charm by Europeans, and legends grew as to it’s origin. Literally thousands of findspots attest to its importance. Trade grew as Greece and later Rome acquired a taste for the gem. In Lithuania and Poland, many settlements have been identified where it is thought the amber craft was centered, dating from 2100 BCE to 1700 BCE

Legends centering around amber grew up in many different cultures. Northern Germans thought amber was the sun’s rays striking the oceans surface. The Greeks built a legend involving the teardrops of nymphs in the sea. The Greeks and Romans used amber as jewelry, and as adornment on personal items. That it was considered lucky was an extra attribute.

Ancient Lithuania
The Lithuanian legend ascribes amber as the teardrops of a Goddess of the Sea. She is prevented from marrying her true love, Kastytis, who is killed by the Thunder god. These tears fell to the bottom of the sea and are today washed up after storms.

Ancient Greece
The Greeks associated amber with not a goddess, but with the tears of a nymph. By 1600 BCE the Greeks were importing amber down from the Baltic area by way of the Black Sea. The Alps still presented a problem for the trade caravans. Pendants and necklaces begin to appear with grave goods indicating it’s importance to the owner. Amber was thought by the Greeks to cure some disease, especially if worn close to the skin. However, much like a rabbits foot, if the person dies the amulets power is in question. Might as well bury it with it’s owner.

The Greeks seem to be fascinated with it after Thales, in c.600 BCE described the ability of amber to attract small pieces of anything organic, as seeds and dust. By rubbing amber with wool, it becomes charged with static electricity, and will attract things of opposite polarity. Since many organic compounds are bi-polar, very small pieces are attracted. To the Greeks, unaware of electricity, this was a gift of the gods. They called amber electron, and from this word we describe electricity.

Greek mythology wrapped amber with many legends. The son of Helios, Phaeton, drowned in the River Eridanus, and his sisters were transformed into pine trees on the riverbank. The tears they shed for their brother were transformed into amber by the sun. One could probably trace the origin of this legend back to Lithuania.

A more involved legend concerns Atlas, who slew a dragon guarding an apple tree with golden fruit. Upon eating the apple Atlas became immortal, and the dust of amber was called Ambrosia, which is the root word for immortal. From this comes the belief that amber, worn as a necklace, or eaten as dust, could cure disease. Amber became known as the "gold of the north", and merchants could turn a profit by carrying it to customers along the Aegean coast.

Herodotus scorned the belief in the legends, and by 700 BCE interest in amber began to wane. But by this time, the Greek merchants had spread amber to the Middle East, and amber was found with Pharaoh Tutankamon form about 1400 BCE. Amber from around 900 BCE turns up in Mesopotamia, but they may have imported it direct from an outlet on the Black Sea, near the mouth of the Danube River.

Thank you for that great material!

As you offered:

"Greek mythology wrapped amber with many legends. The son of Helios, Phaeton, drowned in the River Eridanus, and his sisters were transformed into pine trees on the riverbank. The tears they shed for their brother were transformed into amber by the sun. One could probably trace the origin of this legend back to Lithuania."

Another hint to the origin of the Greek mythology in the Baltic Sea area!!

The evidence Vinci puts forth - showing that the travels of Odysseus (Ulysses/Ull) actually congruate with the map of the Baltic Ocean and Fenno-Scandia.

Since Vinci published his basic thesis already 1989/90 it is highly unlikely that he could have known about the new Finnish Saga. At that point it was hardly published in Swedish/Finnish.

The more precise our information gets about the lost culture of the ancient artcicals, the more we get to understand that this area used to play a highly important role in the "modernisation" that happened around the globe just about 9-7000 years ago, - as agriculture, trade and seatravel developed.

Today we may even see the obvious logic in a statement we find in both Darwin and the Bock Saga; "All individuals/cultures develop according to the needs occuring in the relationship to its surroundings". That implies that we should look closer into the arctic cultures in order to find the ancient cultures that really had some expertise on the use of fire - since their entire life, 365 days a year, was depending on it - during ice-time. Thus we find the development of ovens able to create highly extraordinary temperatures.

Making a woodfire that reach +1100 degrees isn`t that easy. But without such technology we would never have reached the Bronze Age and the further expenssion into a closer use of the metals of this earth.

By the end of ice-time we had ten separate tropical kingdoms (races) populating the area south of the ice-cap. Their culture were of the old, natural lifestyle most often enjoyed in the tropical waters - as food can be gathered from the abundance of their surrounding nature.

Contrary to this we had the arctical culture, - who had to plan, organize, prepare and work highly organized and aimingly - to produce the food, firewood and resources neccesary to survive a very harsh winter. Thus they had to use the growth of the summer in an organised work-schedule - to produce...

According to the Norse legends ("Voluspaa") it was the "Aser" who created and produced all tools nessecary for wood-cutting, tailoring, etc., etc. Later - during the midle age - we got to hear that this "Aser" was the "Gods" of the Vikings. Today we know better. According to the famous etnologist Thor Heyerdahl (and others) there is little or no doubt that we have to relate "Aser" and "Vaner" to ancient etnical groups that actually have existed. From the Icelandic sagas - as well as the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles and others - we hear that the Aser were "the first people", - meaning the original arctic proto-group - who procreated all "artcial men".

Thus the Aser kept the highest position among the old caucasians - as the "first family" - long after their descendants had spread all over Eurasia. Simultaniously the Aser took contact with all tropical kingdoms, to start the interchange that have been going on for 10.000 years - since the fragile time just after ice-age.

That also gives a logic to what modern archeology keep telling us today - namly that the culture of agriculture, technology, ship-travels, trade and intercontinental communication - were arriving from a "higher civilsation" to the "lower" - in close waves on all continents simultaniously.

But, these development did not arrive as a "revelation from a supreme God". Nor did they land with a bunch of UFO`s. They simply had to use skis, sledges, caravans and - most importantly - boats and ships.

We know that the famous Scandinavian "boat-culture" managed to cross the large oceans already 9.000+ years ago. We also know that they reached the Mediterranean and its surrounding countries. Thus they could also be travelling by the larger rivers into Spain, Italy and Egypt/Africa. We also know that a boat-culture was the first to inhabit the land around the larger Eurasian rivers - connecting the Baltic Sea/White Sea with the Caspian Sea and the Black Sea.

Finally do we know that the consept of agriculture and technology existed in the Kenyan highlands, - as one completed set of knowledge and skills, folllowed by five species of plants and five of lifestocks - arriving about 9.200 years ago. We also know that this area had a second wave of life-stocks arriving (simultaniously) 7.400 years ago. As the etiophian farming have been quite conservative we may still find all these stocks still present in todays Etiopia. Thanks to the messengers and carriers who brougth them these "gifts of nature".

The Aesir were the first metalworkers, so they developed marketing arms which spread across Eurasia.

quote from: http://www.rastko.org.yu/arheologija/vinca/vinca_eng.html
The establishment, development and the peak of the Vinca culture are illustrated in the finds of Vinca, located at the depth of nine and six meters. At this period, which by method of C-14 may be dated to approximately 4500 to 3800 BC, the inhabitants of Vinca and their co-tribes created a culture of a particular style, which radiated far and dominated over the largest part of the central and south-east Europe. The Vinca culture covered a territory larger than only other Neolithic culture in Europe around 4000 BC; its individual settlements, for instance Vinca, Potporanj, Selevac or Divostin, surpassed in scope and population not only the Neolithic settlements of the time, but the first towns which emerged later, in Mesopotamia, Aegea and Egypt. The communities of those large settlement used to adapt their main activities to the local conditions. Thus, more attention was paid to farming and stock - breeding in some settlements, to weaving and trade in others, while in those abounding in rare materials started mining and various arts and crafts.

Due to specialised activities all communities in the Vinca culture grew fast economically, differentiated socially and became rich. The communities in Sumadija, Banat and Srem had by careful land cultivation and cattle-raising created surpluses which enabled them to obtain raw materials they lacked in their own territory, primarily obsidian of Erdelj, precious raw material for sickles and precision tools, owned by the neighbouring ethno-cultural groups. On the other hand stability of economy enabled the Vinca communities to relieve some of their members of manual work and devote their efforts to discovery of local raw materials and then their processing. So, the Vinca people came to cinabarite, which was mined at Suplja Stena and minerals (alabaster, marble). Vinca became the biggest market in Southeast Europe not only because of an exceptional value of own products but rare materials or objects, which were brought in from Transylvania, upper Tisza valley, lower Danubian valley and even from the coasts of Aegean and Adriatic seas.

An extensive exchange of goods and development of communications released the creators of the Vinca culture from the clutch of a small plot of land and ancestral habit, gave wings to their imagination and let them hint at new worlds and take an attitude of trust towards nature, life and future. Vinca and some other Neolithic settlements near Vrsac (Potporanj), Kragujevac (Grivac, Divostin) Titova Mitrovica (Valac) and Pristina (Predionica) turned into major religious centres and simultaneously artistic retreat which influenced decisively visual arts in all Neolithic communities of Central and South-East Europe.

Hundreds and thousands of clay statuettes and ritual vases, discovered in the mentioned settlements, attest not only to creative imagination and gift but to a boom of magic-religious practices within the Vinca culture. Thematic variation of clay statuettes (naked or dressed figurines of women and men, standing, kneeling or sitting, statuettes with masks on their faces, hermaphroditic statuettes) and their stylistic advancement starting from naturalistic, to realistic through to quite abstract forms, are an evidence of the prevailing primitive magic power, namely the shaping of clear religious thoughts. Judging on the looks of clay idols and various culture objects, it was expressed in rituals and myths connected with the turn of seasons, sawing or harvesting times births and deaths, and permanent life cycle, visually most completely expressed in the presentation of a woman with a baby in her arms.

Those Vinca communities that had not opted for crop farming or stock-breeding but for mining and working new raw materials, created however, quite a different spiritual world. Those living between the heights of Kucajna and Deli Jovan Mountains near caves, big holes and hot springs had early guessed that in the depths of earth, in its complete dark, there grow and mature fantastic minerals and rocks.

Members of those communities were the first in Europe to penetrate into the spell of the underground world, take its fruit to the light of the day and with the help of fire, make them turn into new materials - into metals, in this case copper.

With the discovery of the great secret of transformation of substance, those first European miners and smiths got involved in the processes of cosmic life and linked with a special world of gods and heroes. After discovery of copper, their imagination populated the nature with an endless number of secret beings: dwarfs, fairies and pixies, who joined the demons of grain and ghosts of fruit-bearing trees. That peculiar secret world of theirs in the Vinca

culture was established at the onset of the 4th millennium BC, at the latest and persisted on the Balkan peninsula till the times of Christianity, the part of which was most probably built into the roots of the oldest recorded European mythology, in the ancient Greek myths about Demeter, Dionysus and Hephaestus the god-smith.

The Vinca culture was at the peak by about 3800 BC. Ruins of the settlement and archaeological items discovered between the sixth and the second meter of culture layer of Vinca, dated by C-14 method back to between 3700 and 3500 BC, revealed that the Vinca culture started loosing its significance progressively to die out, definitely.

endquote

People or clans of seafarers that invaded eastern Anatolia, Syria, Palestine, Cyprus and Egypt in the 2nd millenium BCE. The exact ethnic origin, culture and language is not known.
The Sea People could well be a branch of another people of the region, and there have been several suggestions to this: Ekmesh (a name the Hittites used for the Ahhiyawa), Teresh, Tyrrhenians (ancestors of the Estruscans), Sardinians, Shekelesh of Sicily or Pelest. Another theory is that they could have been a deserted army, or even survivers after a lost war. Another third theory point at the rise of the Sea People to the first fall of the city Troy in Asia Minor around 1250 BCE (the famous battle with the Troyan Horse is a later battle, possibly 60-70 years later).
Despite their name, their main military campaigns were overland. The started near Ugarit (its location corresponds to modern Latakia, Syria) and continued south, until they ran into Egyptian forces.
The Sea People are known for waging 2 wars against Egypt which probably had disastrous effects on the Egyptian society. But other great states were even worse hit, like the Hittite kingdom, which was destroyed.
We have received important information on the Sea People, principally what they looked like, from Egyptian temple reliefs, like the temple of Ramses 3 at Medinatu Habu near Luxor.
When the Sea People attacked different countries, they attacked capitals and cities important to administration. In these cities they destroyed government buildings, palaces and temples, while leaving residential areas and the surrounding countryside untouched. By doing this, they destroyed the local leadership, and could win fairly easy victories.
The Sea People were in almost all ways a negative and destructive force for the region. Even if the Sea People destroyed much through their campaigns, it is believed that they were the founders of the Philistine and Phoenician civilizations, which soon grew to some of the most important forces in the eastern Mediterranean.
HISTORY
1231 BCE: The Sea People attacks Egypt, and fights the forces of King Merneptah. According to the Victory Stela found near Thebes, the Sea People consisted of the following peoples or clans: Shardana, Lukka, Meshwesh, Teresh, Ekwesh and Shekelesh. While Merneptah claimed victory over the Sea People, this is perhaps not true, since Egypt entered a period of much internal unrest following this battle,.
Early 12th century: The Sea People sacks the city of Ugarit. The destruction by them, was so heavy that Ugarit was abandoned forever.
— Attacks from the Sea People, brings the Hittite kingdom to its final end. The power of the kingdom had deteriorated for decades, but it is believed that it was the Sea People that hit the final strike. But the Sea People attacked other countries too, like Kizzuatna, Carchemish, Arzawa and Alasiya.
1191 BCE: Attack on Egypt, where the Sea People meet the forces of king Ramses 3.
1881 CE: The term 'Sea People' is introduced by the French Egyptologist Gaston Maspero.

quote from: http://www.groupsrv.com/science/viewtopic.php?t=11098&view=next
"BONTTY, Mónica M., The Haunebu, GM 145 (1995), 45-58.

HAw-nb.w is a word that appeared in Egyptian texts from the VIth Dynasty until
the Roman Period over 160 times. It is usually translated as "Aegean Islander"
based on the translation given in the Canopus Decree and the Rosetta Stone.
Different scholars have assigned it to specific geographic regions, but the
documentation is inconsistent with these interpretations. The author argues
that HAw-nb.w means "everything beyond" and that it appears consistently in
texts which show the submission of the different populations to the Egyptian
king and the dominance of pharaoh over the entire universe. It also appears in
texts (such as in titles) to denote a "foreigner", or "outsider". It does not
seem to indicate a specific geographic location. Author "
endquote

But the sons of Hercules, or the return of the Heraclids, went to the Peloponese at the END of the Sea Peoples era (ca 1150-1100 BC) and violently overthrew every community which claimed descent from the Arcadian Atlas (via his daughters, the Pleiades).

What was happening among the Arcadians shortly before they were oblilterated?

Homer tells us.

Hermes (the son of Poseidon and the grandson of the Arcadian Atlas) was dispatched to the vicinity of Gadeira to tell Odysseus and Calypso3 that Odysseus should come home. Odysseus followed his orders. But Odysseus left a son named Telegonus3 in Calypso's isle (aka Gadeira, or the "calm port" where Ulysses had found shelter).

What happens next? Telegonus3 (=neo Telchine metal workers, and hence "evil" beings from the perspective of Greek mythology) invade Ithaca. He/they kill Odysseus, marry Penelope (ex-wife of Odysseus), have a son named Italus/Atlas who conquors southern Italy and names it after himself. And then Circe pulls off a deus-ex-machina, when Circe transports both Telegonus3 and Penelope BACK to the Isles of the Blest.

Another son of Odysseus and Calypso3 is named Latinus1. Latinus1 conquors central Italy and then waits for Aeneas to arrive and found Rome.

And then everybody lives happily ever after. http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Calypso3.html

But the Greeks stagger through a dark age. Why? Well for one reason, because Athena forced Hera to give back the golden apples of the Hesperides (and all the profitable trading activity which that can symbolize).

And a secondary reason for the dark age is that the Dorians/Heraclids just killed off all the noble Pleiad (i.e. matriarchally sympathetic) Atlanteans of the Peloponese.

In a generic way, I rate the above comments as a parallel to Plato's Atlantis theme.

In your post of 8-26-2004 you wrote about the Vinca-culture in eastern Europe. As far as it is known, this culture had the oldest writing system, from between 6000 and 5500 years BC !
www.omniglot.com/writing/vinca.htm

Old European / Vinèa

These symbols have been found on many of the artefacts excavated from sites in south-east Europe, in particular from Vinèa near Belgrade, but also in Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, eastern Hungary, Moldova, southern Ukraine and the former Yugoslavia. The artefacts date from between the 7th and 4th millennia BC and those decorated with these symbols are between 8,000 and 6,500 years old.

Some scholars believe that the Vinèa symbols represent the earliest form of writing ever found, predating ancient Egyptian and Sumerian writing by thousands of years. Since the inscriptions are all short and appear on objects found in burial sites, and the language represented is not known, it is highly unlikely they will ever be deciphered.

"Homeric geography refers to a context with a toponymy with which we are familiar, but which, if compared with the actual physical layout of the Greek world, reveals glaring anomalies, which are hard to explain, if only on account of their consistency throughout the two poems. For example, the "strange" Peloponnese appears to be a plain not sporadically but regularly, and D u l i c h i u m, the "Long Island" (in Greek "dolichos" means "long") located by Ithaca, is repeatedly mentioned not only in the Odyssey but also in the Iliad, but was never discovered in the Mediterranean. Thus we are confronted with a world which appears actually closed and inaccessible, apart from some occasional convergences, although the names are familiar (this, however, tends to be more misleading than otherwise in solving the problem).

A possible key to finally penetrating this puzzling world is provided by Plutarch (46 - 120 A.D.). In his work De facie quae in orbe lunae apparet ("The face that appears in the moon circle"), he makes a surprising statement: the island of Ogygia, (where Calypso held Ulysses before allowing him to return to Ithaca) is located in the North Atlantic Ocean, "five days' sail from Britain".

Plutarch's indications lead us to identify Ogygia with one of the Faroe Islands (where we also come across an island with a Greek-sounding name: Mykines), Starting from here, the route eastwards, which Ulysses follows (Book V of the Odyssey) in his voyage from Ogygia to Scheria allows us to locate the latter, i.e. the land of the Phaeacians, on the southern coast of Norway, in an area perfectly fitting the account of his arrival, where archaeological traces of the Bronze Age are plentiful. Moreover, while on the one hand "sker" in Old Norse means a «sea rock», on the other in the narration of Ulysses's landing Homer introduces the reversal of the river current (Od., V, 451-453), which is unknown in the Mediterranean world but is typical of the Atlantic estuaries during high tide.

From here the Phaeacians took Ulysses to Ithaca, located on the far side of an archipelago, which Homer talks about in great detail. At this point, a series of precise parallels makes it possible to identify a group of Danish islands, in the south of the Baltic Sea, which correspond exactly to all of Homer's indications. Actually, the South-Fyn Archipelago includes three main islands: Langeland (the "Long Island"; which finally unveils the puzzle of the mysterious island of D u l i c h i u m), Aerø (which corresponds perfectly to Homeric Same) and Tåsinge (ancient Zacynthus). The last island in the archipelago, located westwards, "facing the night", is Ulysses's Ithaca, now known as Lyø. It is astonishing how closely it coincides with the directions of the poet, not only in its position, but also its topographical and morphological features. And here, amongst this group of islands, we can also identify the little island «in the strait between Ithaca and Same», where Penelope's suitors tried to waylay Telemachus."

from HOMER IN THE BALTIC by Felice Vinci

The Vinca culture had a substantial influence on European civilization. Metals, writing, and theology were very great innovations.

A massive underwater landslide (at Storegga)in the North Sea was contemporary with the early part of the Vinca culture.

A tsunami from the Storegga mudslide is said to have crushed the shores of the North Sea, from Norway to Scottland, at approximately 6000 BC.
http://www.ice.org.uk/news_events/eventdetail_ice.asp?EventID=1059&EventType=ICE&FacultyID=

And here is a link from the BBC which says the tsunami has been carbon dated at 5800 BC, based on damage that it caused along the coast of Scotland. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/sci_tech/2001/glasgow_2001/1531049.stm

Perhaps the 5800 BC Storegga tsunami explains why early Greeks and Romans described the North Sea region as uninhabitable

Where did you get your quote that the early Greeks and Romans described the North Sea region as uninhabitable?

This statement could support the theory, that the Sea Peoples came originally from the North Sea region, which became uninhabitable due to big floods and clima changes. Such an event some centuries ago could be remembered, but not a catastrophe from 5800 BC !

I am just reading a book which was edited three months ago in Germany (but earlier in English language, as the author wrote):
Hans-Wilhelm Rathjen: "Atlantis was Western Europe" (ISBN 3-936469-18-0)

According to Rathjen the 10 peoples of Atlantis settled along the coasts of Western Europe from Gibraltar up to Scandinavia. The homogeneous culture of the Bronze Age in Europe shall be the archaeological proof for that.

By Herodotus

Written 440 B.C.E

Translated by George Rawlinson

Table of Contents

Book I

Clio

These are the researches of Herodotus of Halicarnassus, which he publishes, in the hope of thereby preserving from decay the remembrance of what men have done, and of preventing the great and wonderful actions of the Greeks and the Barbarians from losing their due meed of glory; and withal to put on record what were their grounds of feuds. According to the Persians best informed in history, the Phoenicians began to quarrel. This people, who had formerly dwelt on the shores of the Erythraean Sea, having migrated to the Mediterranean and settled in the parts which they now inhabit, began at once, they say, to adventure on long voyages, freighting their vessels with the wares of Egypt and Assyria. They landed at many places on the coast, and among the rest at Argos, which was then preeminent above all the states included now under the common name of Hellas.
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/greek_phoenician_550.jpg

The Celts called the North Sea the "land of the Dead", and some modern scholars say this meant that the ancestors of the Celts had once lived along the shores of the North Sea.

But early Greek and Roman maps of the World were titled as maps of "the Inhabited World", leaving out the region of the farthest north.

We may speculate about what actually gave the Phoenicians such possibilities. What were their sources of produce and counter-produce? How could they get access to and preference, even, - in the societies that existed across the Mediterranean - already long before the Phonecians arrived?

According to Herodot the Phoenicians had access to Assyrian grounds. That may connect their (presumtive) "land of origin" - the Eritrean Bay - to the Akaba Bay and the Persian Gulf. Which connects to the coasts of Iran, Pakistan and India.

With the help of an improved ship-buliding for ocean sailing - the trade-routes of the sea was greatly enhanced. Now a ship could bring in tons where the camel takes some kilos. And still the ship will move three times faster than any speed-heading Afghan Caravan...

Contrary to the natural implication - by the mere location of their homeland - the Phonecians trade with African goods are hardly mentioned. That may may indicate an older, perhaps etnical relation towards the east. Which means that some of the Assyrian, Persian or Indian ("Aryan") cultures had learned to produce "winged bodies - flying over water". Like only causiously designed, master-built boats, with sniped sails on a steady keel - can do...

With the new ability for navigational sailing the trade-routes grew. At the same time as Buddism spreads around Asia we can see another escalation of the trade in the Far East. That gave India a key-position in connecting the Far East with the West. Simultaniously as the exchange of goods accelerates we see the introduction of a "universal receat", that is a sign/symbol to verify that you have been delivering as agreed.

So we have the first symbols of exchange - where a smal piece of some sort was given to represent a value, much larger than the practical value of the item. Thus we got the worlds first "coin" - as this Budhist culture started counting and keeping shells to keep track of a growing exchange of goods. To avoid plain forgery they had to get a very specific, impossible to fake and copy kind of item.

Which they found - as the oversea-connection from the south of India to the Maldives got steadily organised they started importing a small and beutiful concord, the Kauri-shell, that grow ONLY in the southern waters of the Maldive Islands, - far out into the ocean...

By 1500 BP we find this antique signs of trade - with the latin name Cyprea MONATA -all over the trading-system that can be reached from the southern tip of India. To the east it reaches Japan, - to the west it reaches all of the African east-coast, and even the African inland as far as Kongo and Sahara.

Thus we find it in the Mediterranean time, from the period of the Emperial Rome. (Somewhere I read that a nation in Africa - where the traditional value was still appreciated/respected - Kauri-shells were exchanged 1:1 with their national coins - less than 50 years ago...

From south India these coins also spread via the caravan-routes up north. Via the passes of Afganistad the trade reached Samarkand and the Caspian Sea, from where the goods reached new keels, - from the BOAT-PEOPLE of great Volga river. By Volga the shells travelled to Novgorod and the Finnish Bay, where the BOAT-PEOPLE of the Baltic ocean takes it to all sides of the Baltic Oceans, and The North Sea, reaching Denmark/Germany/England. On the western side of the Botnic Bay it gets exchanged with a new boat-people - the one of the Scandinavian river-system - who takes the Maldivian Shells to the northern coast of the great Atlantic Ocean.

(As grave-burials became a custom in Northern Norway - first time around 1500 years from now - they been burying some of their most honored men and women. The latter have been getting - also - their rare and precious Kauri-shells buried beside the old, honoured wifes of the Norwegian Nortlanders, - the oldest, - and most skilled boat-builders, sea-farers and navigators the ancient world ever saw...)

The trade-culture that spread alongside with Buddism obviously got to know about all the nations, peoples and areas of the world. Building overseas trade-relations it must be based on a high degree of consensus and trust. That`s absolutely neccesary in order to be able to trust your whole cargo to be exchanged into a handfull of shells. (In stead of the traditional exchange - where the goods were inspected, couted, validated and exchanged - piece for piece.)

With the introduction of the "coin-shell" the old Indians to put a certain value - counted in shells - to products from very different places of the world. Thus it became possible to matematically asess the exchange rate, pay accordingly - IN SHELLS - and then getting on with the shipment. As the ship reached its destination and re-exchanged their cargo for shells - they could pay for another cargo - even in another harbour - before they returned.

It may seem as the phoenicians started competing with this "Budhist system" - as they introduced metal-coins as a new, competing currency. Today that kind of behavior is called a "trade-war". With sole access to - and a trade-monopoly with the Far East goods the Phoenicians could "conquer" or "create" markets in the Mediterranean, - where they probably did not have any "coins" at all before. The old Assyrian, as the Minoan, just kept their trade in clay-tablet note-books. Which MAY indicate that the "Minoans" - forming the BOAT-culture of the Western and Eastern Kingdom, evidently creating both the Roman and the Greek cultures, - simultaniously.

- Yepp. The Northern Seas were always the "Home of the Dead" for all Celts. Being a (big) branch of the arctic population they evidently had a history of origin and history as a basis for their wide and well organised culture, - reaching from the shores of both the Biscaya as the Black Sea.

In the heart of Europe today German reasearchers have revealed a 3.500 year old city, with an infra-structure indicating more than 100.000 inhabitants. In those days they still enjoyed a stable peace in both the Eurasian and the Meditarranean areas, as Athens and Rome was just reaching its first thousands of citizens.

1350 years later the Roman army had besieged the other Mediterranean armies - and reached a monopoly of military power in that area. But the daily costs of subsidary war-lords, mercanaries and loyal beuraucrats were heavy. So the war had to continue - to keep the mercanaries happy, and one`s seat of power staedy.

To solve a critical crisis in his own career the wanna-be-emperor Cesar got the brilliant idea; to turn omn their best allies through five thousand years of peaceful trade and co-existence; The Celts.

Being part of the arctical population the Celts had a lot of resources that would come in very handy. And, - their societies were still built, organised and managed according to their traditions, - of peaceful trade and communion. Only small forces of young men, led by some elder - to govern riposts and border-stations to the south - were some Romans had tried to invade and raid beore. But in combat 1:1 the Celts were normally a head higher and thus not often losing a wrestling-situation.

As weapons of war gets to be developed during the Persian/Roman wars - the Roman army gets to grow both big, merciless and though effective. With Cesars collected veterans they arrived in France withy more than a 100.000 soldiers - especially trained and experienced in the Noble Art of Mother****ing and Manslaugther. Ready to die for the personal will of their leader. A progression in the evolution - or a re-gression? Eventully a step of de-evolution...?!

The raid succeded and ever since did we have the proverb refering to "The Rape of Europe". The result being that even the peaceful fishing-culture of the Celts turned sour - after a long conquest and subjugation - during the 4th and 5th century they started hitting back. In the 5th century the Gothic king Alarik trained his young men into the "sport of war" - before they walked from the Baltic coast - to Rome which they conquered, to get the agressor to regret. Something you still may see - by yourself - if you happen to witness a catholic sermon; where the most basic standard prayer still start with "Forgive us, Lord, for we are sinners". "Maxima Mea Culpa"...

Later this triggered a new wave of conquest from Rome, - now orchestrated by the new power of Rome, the Vatican Church. Thus you will find Celts and Goths refering to Aser, Vaner and their ancient location. Talking to their contemporary greeks/romans - most of them clerics of the church - it became vital to hide their land, their capitol and national treasuries - from being raided, plundered and estuinguished?!

Best regards

Homer says this battle was fought near the "river of Egypt". This is a reference to what the Bible calls the "brook of Egypt", meaning the northern border of Egypt near the land of the Philistines.

quote from: http://www.highspeedplus.com/~edonon/RH-NEG.htm
Did Odysseus sail from there directly to Egypt or did he first participate in the destruction of the Syrian and Lebanese harbours? We don't know, but Homer used Odysseus' words to describe his trip south:

"On the seventh day we went aboard and from wide Crete sailed on a North Wind that was favourable and fair. On the fifth day we reached the abundant stream Aigyptos, and I stayed my oar-swept ships inside the Aigyptos river. Then I urged my eager companions to stay where they were, there close to the fleet, and to guard the ships, and was urgent with them to send lookouts to the watching places; but they, following their own impulse, and giving way to marauding violence, suddenly began plundering the Egyptians' beautiful fields, and carried off the women and innocent children, and killed the men, and soon the outcry came to the city. They heard the shouting , and at the time when dawn shows, they came on us, and all the plain was filled with horses and infantry and the glare of bronze, and ... none was so hardy as to stand and fight, for the evils stood in a circle around them. There they killed many of us with the sharp bronze and others they led away alive, to work for them in forced labor. I wish I had died and met my destiny there in Egypt, for there was still more sorrow awaiting me". (XIV: 252-275)

Homer, who knew a good story when he saw it, obviously couldn't resist repeating this story in his Odyssey. He tuned it down as much as possible and hid it in the text as a "lying story" but it is clear that it was a highlight in the original travelogue which he worked from. Confirming this history is exactly what Ramses III had done on his funerary temple at Medinet Habu. Ramses explains how prepared he was for the attack:

"As for those who came on the sea, the full flame was in front of them at the river mouths, while a stockade of lances surrounded them on the riverbank. They were dragged ashore, hemmed in and flung down on the beach, grappled, capsized and laid out on the shore dead, their ships made heaps from stern to prow, and their goods...." (Wood p.220).

The "full flame" at the river mouth is mentioned a few times in the inscriptions but no satisfactory explanation of it has been given. Large numbers of the attackers lost their lives, many were captured and put to work as slave labourers and mercenaries. Odysseus also managed to survive. He tells us that he saw the Pharaoh approach and made the best of a bad situation:

"At once I put the well-wrought helm from my head, the great shield off my shoulders, and from my hand I let the spear drop, and went out into the way of the king and up to his chariot, and kissed his knees and clasped them: he rescued me and took pity and seated me in his chariot and took me, weeping, homeward with him; and indeed many swept in on me with ash spears straining to kill me, for they were all too angered, but the king held them off from me". (XIV: 276-283).

The terror experienced by the people from the Atlantic islands was also described on the Medinet Habu monument. When the battle turned against them:

"They penetrated the channels of the river mouths (Nile Delta). They struggle for breath, their nostrils cease. His Majesty is gone out like a whirlwind against them fighting in the battle field like a runner, the dread of him and the terror have entered in their bodies, they are capsized and overwhelmed where they are. Their heart is taken away and their soul is flown away, their weapons are scattered upon the sea. His arrow pierces whom he wishes, and the fugitive is a drowned man........"

The life of Odysseus had been saved by the lucky presence of the Pharaoh but he was now a prisoner. Knowing that the Sea Peoples were reliable people with a cause and good fighters, the Egyptians had traditionally made mercenaries out of them in a special unit of the Egyptian army. Again they were given a choice, to either become slave labourers working on the temples, or swear an oath to fight a certain number of years as mercenaries for the Pharaoh and, upon completion of satisfactory service, to earn their freedom.

"There for seven years I stayed and gathered together much substance from the men of Egypt, for all gave to me". (XIV: 285-6).

endquote

From the summary of HOMER IN THE BALTIC above,
Regarding "the river Egypt"

"As regards Crete, the «vast land» with «a hundred cities» and many rivers, which is never referred to as an island by Homer, it corresponds to the Pomeranian region in the southern Baltic area, which stretches from the German coast to the Polish same. This explains why in the rich pictorial productions of the Minoan civilization, which flourished in Aegean Crete, we find no hint of Greek mythology, and ships are so scantily represented. It would also be tempting to assume a relationship between the name «Polska» and the Pelasgians, the inhabitants of Homeric Crete. At this point, it is also easy to identify Naxos (where Theseus left Ariadne on his return journey from «Crete» to «Athens») with the island of Bornholm, situated between Poland and Sweden, where the town of Neksø still recalls the ancient name of the island.

Likewise, we discover that the Odyssey's «River Egypt» probably coincides with the present-day Vistula, thus revealing the real origin of the name the Greeks gave to Pharaohs' land, known as «Kem» in the local language. This explains the incongruous position of the Homeric Egyptian Thebes, which, according to the Odyssey, IS LOCATED NEAR THE SEA. Evidently the Egyptian capital, which on the contrary lies hundreds of kilometres from the Nile delta and was originally known as Wò'se, was renamed by the Achaeans with the name of a Baltic city, after they moved down to the Mediterranean. The real Thebes probably was the present-day Tczew, on the Vistula delta. To the north of the latter, in the centre of the Baltic Sea, the island of Fårö recalls the Homeric Pharos, which according to the Odyssey lay in the middle of the sea at a day's sail from «Egypt» (whereas Mediterranean Pharos is not even a mile's distance from the port of Alexandria). Here is the solution to another puzzle of Homeric geography that so perturbed Strabo."

"In the heart of Europe today German reasearchers have revealed a 3.500 year old city, with an infra-structure indicating more than 100.000 inhabitants."

What?

The mtDNA experts admit that the clan of Ulrich (=Bock Saga people) is mathematically worth considering, even though it originated outside the 7 main lines of European descent.

Therefore I urge you and Boreas to admit, in a reciprocal (and objective) type of way, that the rest of Europe contributed roughly 4900% more to European civilization than the so-called "arctic" people who are discussed in the Bock Saga.

Atalante,
What's all that supposed to mean?! Who and when was it decided on THAT and HOW there is a congruency between a) todays mitochondrical DNA, b)the origin of the arctic populations and c) the time-line of 40.000 BP until Present Time?! Please become very thorough and exact before you start rallying a well documented and exstensivly reflected point of view.

To me it is quite indifferent "who" was first, most, strongest or biggest. That kind of crap we better leave to the social-darwinists. Some biased commentators obviously try to USE even modern science and research to prove political ideas or ideologies.

Some think that "The Survival of the Fittest" actually refers to the specie most "fit for figth". Please note that the word "figth" was never put there by Darwin himself, who picked the word to describe most exactly what he saw in the micro/macro-universe of Galagapos - an old, genuin yet great diversity of species, living in a natural balance. This balance was defined by how the individuals of each specie, as well as the specie itself - was Fitting IN.
Most fit - to fit in...

As you will find Cro-Magnons in the SW Europe we find Neanderthals in the SE.
In the NW we find the Sutton Hoo`s and the whole bunch of Shipbuilders, fishermen anbd sailors/traders that populated all the coast-line, from NW Spain all along the coast to the White Sea. This was obviously the culture that developed Ocean Sailings AND Sea-faring.
In the NE we find the "Inlanders", chopping wood and slash-burning - creating the first fields of Agriculture.

Both this branches - split in limbs, as you call "tribes" - to be able to organise a populatation of the wide, open and free land of Northern Eurasia after ice-time. One is often called "Fishing/Gathering culture", the other one is known as the "Agriculture".

By the way - WHAT exactly is it that proves that the hunter/gather-people came first, to later be "taken over" by "the higher" acri-culture?! Why couldnt this two ways of living have developed within one and the same detnical/linguistical/cultural group. Why couldt agriculture have spread througout the established societies of the fishing/hunting-culture?! Why do we always define agriculture as a result of an invasion or "hostile take-over"? Simply because our 20th century historians have been over-colored by the recent wars of the world - ending up explaining Darwins "Fittest"
to mean "Fittest for figth". And that ONLY.

According to recent DNA-studies; The Scandinavian populations are the oldest in Europe (According to the Univ. of Huddersfield, et al). The reason is obvious - the subcontinent have never been occupied by armies! Consequently there have been no etnic cleansing or "Romanisation", as we saw in Scottland, England, France and part of SE Europe.

With genes older than 10.000 years do we still find a lot of old farmer-families in Scandinavia. still growing their ancestors old fields - throughout Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Finland. Here we may see and understand that the agriculture of N Europe was entirely based on the preparations of the land made during the first millenia after ice-time, when NO soil yet existed. Consequently the first generations of the boreal Europeans had to rely on gathering/fishing/hunting only - until their activities had produced the first acre of good soil. After 7000 BP we can follow the (peaceful) co-existence and trade between fishermen and farmer. As well as between the different etnic groups of Europe, - such as between the Iberians, Romans and Greeks on one side - and the hunters/gathers and travellers of West Coast
Europe and their agricultural brethren of mainland England and Eurasia.

Its not clear to me why you think Darwin and his theory need to be discussed.

In your postings recently, I recall you mentioning that about 75% of Scandinavians died due to harsh living conditions during Little Ice Age, ca 1300 AD.

If so, then perhaps the far-northern mtDNA group of U (or Ulrich) represented about 8% of Europe's population before 1300 AD.

But its not clear to me why you suggested that the primary and oldest line of mtDNA originated in your own region, Scandinavia.

i think with edo nyland's "linguistic archaeology", plus georges ivanovich gurdjieff's "beelzebub tales to his grandson" and ignatius donnelly's "atlantis, the antediluvian world", one have enough information to begin to make an opinion of his own.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/ataw/index.htm

I enjoy the links you have provided recently.
In a later post I can comment on Edo Nyland's theory about early travel in the Atlantic Ocean.

However in this post I will collect some info about the naval Battle of Ramses III, and its echos in a) Homer, b) the Bible, and c) Plato.

Fortunately, this story has been preserved by heiroglyphs on the temple complex at Medinat Habu, and also in a few papyrus versions.

Here is a link which analyzes the military strategy and tactics of the battle. http://rapidttp.com/milhist/vol074ic.html
It is possible that the Sea battle took place in a branch of the Nile. But I suspect the Egyptians wanted to confront the invaders BEFORE they entered the heart of the Nile Delta.

a) in regard to Homer. Edo Nyland has made a valuable demonstration that this battle is the one on which Homer bases his story about Odysseus fighting a losing battle against the Egyptians, early in the Odyssey.

Some Egyptian versions of the story point out that the pharoah Ramses III captured Peleset and Shardana soldiers, and then assigned them to serve in Egyptian border-garrisons, in the region which was soon to be known as the land of the Philistines.

This matches Homer's statements that Odysseus was defeated, but subsequently was given provisions by the Egyptians, and required to serve for 7 years, somewhere near the land of the Philistines.

b) The Bible names these people as the Philistines, and claims that they lived in Palestine throughout the era of the hebrew Judges (ca 1200-1000 BC).

c) Then Plato and some of his successors write about finding a story written on pillars in Egypt about a naval invasion from the so-called Atlantean peoples. Plato also tells us that Solon was invited to review papyrus versions of the story in Egypt's sacred registers. It seems that Solon had acess to the same combination of sources (pillars and papyrus versions) which are available to modern archaeologists.

It is generally agreed that the Shardana eventually left Egypt and settled in Sardinia, while Odysseus (without the remainder of his Philistines) returned to the west coast of mainland Greece, at a place called Ithaca. But before returning home, Odysseus went on an extended exploration of the territory which borders Sardinia (i.e. Odysseus seems to have mimicked the Shardana when they moved to Sardinia.)

Here is a map which shows the favored locations of several places that Homer described as explorations of Odysseus. http://www.uoregon.edu/~nateich/worldlit/map.gif

This link gives keynames for places which were explored during the Odyssey. http://www.uoregon.edu/~nateich/worldlit/mapkey.html

As you can see from the map and the keynames, scholars are not yet in agreement that Odysseus fought against Ramses III in the famous naval battle. That is one of the reasons why I find the work of Edo Nyland so novel.

It is turning out that Homer's Odyssey was virtually a sequel to the Egyptian wars against the Sea Peoples.

Although Homer ends his story with a glorious homecomeing by Odysseus, there are other myths which tell a much darker side of the story.

In those other myths, it is said that people from the Island of Calypso followed Odysseus to his homeland at Ithaca Greece, where the islanders killed him, conquored his land, and abducted his wife. At that point, the Goddess (Circe) intervenes in the carnage, magically saving Greek culture and transporting the wife and son of Odysseus to the Islands of the Blest, either in the Mediterranean, or perhaps slightly beyond the Pillars of Hercules.

Quote; "Its not clear to me why you think Darwin and his theory need to be discussed."

I do not discuss Darwins theory. I just comment on the USE of it. By people like the etnologists and ideologists of the 1920`s, 30`s and 40`s. And still today we hear this baseline in a lot of the political and scientifical arguments - more or less counsciously paraphrased by people like you and me. THAT was my concern.

Quote; "In your postings recently, I recall you mentioning that about 75% of Scandinavians died due to harsh living conditions during Little Ice Age, ca 1300 AD.

If so, then perhaps the far-northern mtDNA group of U (or Ulrich) represented about 8% of Europe's population before 1300 AD."

- It`s under circumstances like this that words like "perhaps" and "why" get very long tails. I am not even sure how to understand or interpretate the historical impact of these recently created genetic maps. Do not forget that they are - so far -based on a momentary situation ALONE, that being the PRESENT demographical MIX of Europe. How can we deduct the past movements out of that picture ALONE, with no cross-scientific referencs? And what about the time-line - are the geneticans able to establish time-frames telling HOW old the different groups are - WITHOUT leaning to the facts established by archaeology, etc.?

If you want to perform a critical objectivity - or outrigth sceptisism - please be consequent and view the Oxford map, as well as its interpretated "impact" in the same critical ligth. THEN you may expalin to me HOW the group Ulrich, and the other groups are to be understood - based on the archaeological EVIDENCE today existing.

Quote;
"But its not clear to me why you suggested that the primary and oldest line of mtDNA originated in your own region, Scandinavia."

I have NEVER suggested such a thing. i simply reffered to a proven discovery - made and presented by the University of Huddersfield, England, Faculty of Molecular Biology in 2002, - as being part of the European Genome Project. THEY suggested that;
The oldest genomes of Europe - from its first migration - are today found only among the Scandinavians and the Basques - both older than 10.000 years.

You asked how DNA could measure chronology in isolation from archaeology. I can try to explain, and hope you soon understand, that the nature of these mtDNA samples must automatically be more accurate in regard to chronology.

For example here is a mt genealogy tree. It shows the DATES of the sub-branches. But no experts have intervened to assign locations where those branches may have occurred. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jswdna/haplogroupn.gif

The oldest group, called N is at the bottom of this genealogy tree. N is datable to 64,000 years ago. That was shortly after the "out of Africa" event. Nearly all the modern people of Europe are sub-branches of N in regard to mtDNA.