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Author Topic:   the Sea People
rockessence
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posted 07-10-2004 23:50     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Atalante,

About your statement:
"Greek mythology seems to have virtually no comment about Malta, Majorca, Minorca, Ibiza, Pantelleria, Corsica, and perhaps other important islands in the Western Mediterranean."

This may be explained by the understanding that these islands were named after the migrations to the "middle sea" from the far norths populations, who brought the place names of their original nordic homelands to thousands of places in the Mediterranean. Obviously there would have to be many places that were not named in this way.

The Greek myths consistantly match place-names with the Baltic Sea area, the North Sea area and Scandinavia in general.

[This message has been edited by rockessence (edited 07-10-2004).]

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rockessence
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posted 07-11-2004 00:16     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
dhill,

I put this on another thread a few days ago:

posted 07-08-2004

"The cultural connection the Rose and Ros-land (Russia), the Russ-ki (rose-key) and the Et-rus-ki (rose family key). Compare En-er-ki/gi/gy ("one-motion-giving"). Since the sound (and the letter) "eR" represents "motion", eR-os becomes "offspring-of-being", inducing a sacred or whole-I ("holy") moment, that of "giving" that any off-spring (of an origin) represents. Namely life, -evolving. Like the key turns, unfolding in the harmony of the rose. Constituting the word: "Etruscan" as it is written in today's commonplace English.

from www.bocksaga.com

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rockessence
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posted 07-11-2004 00:24     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
CSM,

In your last posting:
"In the light of such information can it really be such a mystery why the Danite settlers in Ireland traced their origins to Greece?"

It may be a mistake to identify their origins as being from Greece. More likely from the Baltic Sea area to Ireland, while another branch went as well to the "middle sea-land" Mediterranea.

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atalante
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posted 07-11-2004 03:14     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
dhill,
There must have been some sea travel 40,000 years ago. Anatomically modern humans did arrive in Australia by that time.

But the Gebel El Arak knife does not really demonstrate anything regarding 40,000 BC.

Riven's excellent link about the Gebel El Arak knife http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/knife_of_gebel_el_arak/index.html
suggests that the crescent shaped boats may have been traditional Egyptian reed
boats for use on the Nile river; and the flat-keeled boats may have been used by foreigners for transportation.

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 07-12-2004).]

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CSM
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posted 07-11-2004 11:26     Click Here to See the Profile for CSM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

rockessence

You wrote, “It may be a mistake to identify their origins as being from Greece. More likely from the Baltic Sea area to Ireland, while another branch went as well to the "middle sea-land" Mediterranean.”

The comment, "In the light of such information can it really be such a mystery why the Danite settlers in Ireland traced their origins to Greece?" was a comment by Hermon Hoeh about a particular group of Danite settlers, not all. They were actually of Israelitish descent, which makes them of Middle Eastern origin. After the war with the Assyrians (modern day Germany), a large group of the 10 tribes of Israel fled westward first through Greece, then North Africa, then Spain to southern England and Ireland. The remaining group took the northern route through Europe after settling on the shores of the Black Sea. So both you and Hoeh are correct.

However, many of the Danites had left the scene long before this war, had allied themselves with other nations (which was strictly forbidden, but they did so anyhow), settled parts of Greece and Ireland, and generally caused havoc with many nations. Of the Israelitish tribes the Danites were considered the best all-round fighters, being skilled in all manner of weapons, unlike the other tribes who specialised in archery, the sling, etc. One thing they did not do, which is verified by absence of commentary, was to fight against their brethren still in the Middle East. The letter from the king of Sparta also confirms the genetic connections with the Israelites. On this matter it is interesting that the letter should have been addressed to the High Priest, the one person who could have and would have denied any connection with Israel had it not been so. It was part of the responsibility of the priesthood to keep the records of lineage.

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CSM
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posted 07-11-2004 11:31     Click Here to See the Profile for CSM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Following is an exerpt from Hermon Hoeh’s Doctoral Paper. His comments may not go down too well with most people, but the names and dates are very comprehensive. This is only a small portion of one of the chapters in his two volume dissertation. These papers are not widely distributed, which is a pity because of the amount of research they contain.


quote:

COMPENDIUM OF WORLD HISTORY – VOLUME 2

A Dissertation In Partial Fulfillmentof the Requirements for the Degree Doctor of Philosophy, by Herman L. Hoeh (1963, 1966, 1969 Edition)

Italian History

The history of Italy was preserved down to Roman times. Not until the Middle Ages was it allowed to die a natural death. What could not be disproved was left undiscussed. The scholarly world soon forgot the records in its possession. Those who did take note of them began labeling them as recent inventions -- just as they did the history of every other nation. Now let us open the pages of Italian history and see what really occurred in ancient Italy.

The history of Italy opens -- as might be expected -- with human government beginning at the Tower of Babel. Italian history begins immediately after the Flood -- with the land without inhabitants for 108 years. The first family to settle in Italy, according to ancient history, was Gomer.

Gomer's children generally passed eastward out of Europe into Asia. Archaeology traces the movements of the earliest cultures of the children of Gomer from southern Europe into Asia. (See the previous chapter on the history of Spain under the family of Togarmah.)

Because Gomer was the earliest hero this side the Flood to populate limited areas of Europe, it became a Middle-Age superstition to label all the people of Europe the descendants of Gomer. Most Bible maps are so labeled today. But they are wrong. In the very first chapter, on the history of Germany, is proof that Shem's descendants now inhabit Western Europe. The fiction that Gomer was the ancestor of these people was deliberately, and knowingly, invented to cloak the identity of the House of Israel and of the Chaldeans and Assyrians. The Germans do not want their identity known to the world. Nor do the Chaldeans. And the House of Israel wants to believe it is Gentile.

Now, to continue the history of Italy as preserved to us from the same sources which give us German, Spanish and early British history.

Patriarchs, Rulers and Kings of Italy – Years – Dates

Janus (Noah): 33, 2261-2228
Plants colonies in Mediterranean. Janus was also called Vertumnus because through him the seasons continue in their cycle. Noah exercised authority in the period that both Shem and Heber appear dominant on the world scene elsewhere.

Gomer: 58, 2228-2170 (his son Ashkenaz (Ochus) succeeded him).
Ochus, son of Gomer: 50, 2170-2120
Camese (Ham): 19, 2120-2101
Janus (Noah again): 82, 2101-2019
Cranus Razenus: 54, 2019-1965
Son of Janus or Noah -- Shem; the name means the crowned one, and father of many races or peoples.

Aurunus: 43, 1965-1922
Son of predecessor Aram -- from whom descended the Ausonians or Uzites.

Tagus Ormah (Togarmah): 42, 1922-1880
Son of Gomer. Togarmah augmented and established a religious system which came to be called the "rites of Janus." Here was an early parallel of the later pagan attempt to establish its religion on the world in the name of Christ. Togarmah obtained the designation Malot because he AUGMENTED -- the meaning of malot -- the pagan rites. Is it not significant
that those lands most filled with hideous pagan superstition are the very areas settled by the sons of Gomer and especially Togarmah -- Tibet and Siberia? The Tibetans acquired their rites from Italy!

Sicanus, son of Togarmah: 30, 1880-1850
His wife was Ceres, who was worshipped as goddess of agriculture. It was her ideas which encouraged priests of the pagan religion to support themselves by living off the agricultural labor of others. Sicanus left only a daughter, Proserpina, who was married to Orcus, king of the Molossi in Epirus. Thereafter the government passed to petty kings or Tyrants.

Reign of Enachi Tyrants. 30, 1850-1820
This period corresponds in part to the time of the African invasion of Spain. Their overthrow was recorded in Greek myth as the war with the giants. Were these sons of Anak?

Osiris Apis: 10/12, 1820-1808/10
Osyris of Egypt drove out tyrants and reigned in their stead. He is Sendi, King of Egypt.

Lestrigonians: 43/45, 1808/10-1765
Sons of Neptune, the son of Osiris. For last ten years of his reign Hercules warred against Lestrigo.

Heracles, Seir the Horite: 30, 1765-1735
In Scripture; called "Oron" (the Horite -- in Spanish Literature).

Tuscus, son of Heracles. 27, 1735-1708 (He drilled people in art of war)
Alteus, son of Tuscus. 7, 1708-1701
Hesperus, brother of Atlas. 11, 1701-1690

Italus Atlantus Kittim. 19, 1690-1671
(See history of Spain for his identity.) Atlas left only a daughter Roma (or Electra); she was therefore of the family of Abraham through Keturah's son Midian, according to Josephus and the records of Spain.

Morges. 20, 1671-1651 (A prince of the Morgetae in Italy)

Cambon (son of Blasco): 50, 1651-1601 Jointly with Roma (33, 1634-1601)
Called Corito or Corythus. Married Roma (Electra) daughter of Atlas Kitim; she was the concubine of a Jupiter. Sammes' "Britannia Antiqua Illustrata" is of major assistance in clarifying Anderson's "Royal Geneologies" during this period. See also "Historia" by Bartholome Gutierrez, page 165.

Jasius: 50, 1601-1551
A descendant of Jupiter, but not from Electra. In the year 1601 the throne of Britain had become vacant and Jasius was chosen to fill the vacant throne in Britain. From Britain he ruled all Celtica and Italy. At his death the throne of Britain was separated from Italy. The royal line continues in Italy thus:

Corybantus: (48, 1551-1503)
Corybantus was the son of Jasius and Cybele. He and his mother divided Italy into 12 provinces and set over them 12 rulers, after which they retired into Phrygia. A few Israelites were fleeing from Egypt at this period due to persecution by the Egyptians.

Tyrrenus: (51, 1503-1452)
Migrates with Lydians from Asia Minor. After his reign the unity of Italy ceased. Not until the rise of the Roman Republic did all the numerous tribes in Italy again become united under one government. Hereafter the history of Italy is the story of the Kings of the Tuscans and of Kittim. The history parallel to the Kingdom of Etruria will be presented after that of the Tuscans.


THE HISTORY OF ETRURIA

The story of Etruria or Tuscany is essentially the history of those invading nations who dwelt in Italy, but were not descended from Kittim. The people of Etruria were a heterogeneous group of tribes.

Kings of the Tuscans – Lengths of Reign – Dates

Tharcon I: 23, 1452-1429
Abas: 15, 1429-1414
Olanus: 21, 1414-1393
Veibenus: 42, 1393-1351
Oscus: 34, 1351-1317
Tharcon II: 46, 1317-1271
Tiberinus: 30, 1271-1241
Expels Pelasgi from Italy in time of Jabin, king of Canaan.

Mezentius: 22, 1241-1219
He was expelled for his tyranny and fled to Cerytes during the rule of Tharcon III. Mezentius afterwards aided Turnus against Aeneas.

Tharcon III: 20, 1219-1199
Ocnus Blanor: 46, 1199-1153
Pipinus: 52, 1153-1103

Nicius Fesulanus: 47, 1101-1054
He expelled the Phoenicians from the isle of Corsica, and built the city of Nicea.

Piseus: 52, 1054-1002
He is credited with several inventions. This is the era of Solomon and world wide growth in culture and in foreign trade.

Thuscus: 39, 1002- 963
Amnus: 25, 963- 938
Felsinus: 43, 938- 895
He built Felsina the metropolis of the Tuscans.

Bon: 28, 895- 867
Atreius: 27, 867- 840
Marsias: 18, 840- 822
Etalus: 39, 822- 783
Coelius: 21, 783- 762
Galerius Arbanus Lucumo: 20, 762- 742
Lukius: 25, 742- 717
Cibitus: 82, 717- 635
Lucumo Clusinus: 58, 635- 577
King Tarquinus Priscus of Rome wasted Tuscany about 596, but at their entreaty a peace as concluded in 584, By this peace they gave to Tarquin a crown of gold, an ivory chair, a sceptre with an eagle at the end of it, a purple robe embroidered with gold, a gown and 12 axes, which Tarquin received with the senate's consent.

Rhaetus: 20, 577- 557
He gave name to the Rhetians, a people of the Alps. King Serbius Tullius of Rome triumphed three times over the Tuscans, who were at last forced to submit.

Hyellus: 44, 557- 513
Porcena Clusius: 58, 513-455
Tolumnius Laertes: 24, 455- 431
Eques Tuscus: 40, 431- 391
Livius Fidenatus: 48, 391- 343
Elbius Tuscus: 32, 343- 311
Turrenus: 41, 311- 270
A major blow was struck, beginning in 285, against Etruria. The king surrendered his government to the Romans. So closed the independent history of the Tuscan tribes in Etruria, many of whom now scattered into neighboring regions. Subordinate princes continued as follows until the reign of Emperor Otho.

Titus (Tito): 40, 270- 230
Volturrenus: 48, 230- 182
Cecinna: 56,182 - 126
Menippus: 46, 126 - 80
Menodorus: 36, 80 - 44
Mencenate: 56, B.C. 44 - 13 A.D.
Seinao: 23, 13 -36
Scevino: 33, 36 -69
Otho Torentius (the Emperor Otho) ruled only 3 months


THE HISTORY OF THE LATINS

Meanwhile the descendants of the children of Kittim were being ruled over by descendants of the family of Abraham. The famous woman Electra or Roma was daughter of Atlas Kittim. Josephus reveals Atlas to have been Epher, Abraham's grandson. His daughter is called the concubine of Jupiter (see Icelandic history earlier in this volume), From Electra, who later married Cambon, came a line of rulers who were later accounted gods or divine heroes. The list carries us down to the coming of Aeneas of Troy, recorded in Volume I. All these royal lines were related to the family of Abraham.

List of Kings – Length of Reign – Dates

Roma: 46, 1634-1588 (Previously concubine of Jupiter).

Romanessus: 79, 1588-1509 (Son of Roma).

Picus: 57, 1509-1452
Faunus: 30, 1452-1422
Annus: 54, 1422-1368
Vulcan: 36, 1368-1332
Marte (Mars): 23, 1332-1309 (Sometimes referred to as Janus).
Saturn: 36, 1309-1273 (Arrived from Crete in 1331).
Picus: 34, 1273-1239 (Sometimes called Jupiter).
Faunus the younger: 24, 1239-1215
Latinus (Lateinos): 38, 1215-1177

The year 35 of Latinus was 1181-1180. Aeneas of Troy arrived that year (see Dionysius of Halicarnassus, I, 44). In year 38 (1178-1177) Latinus died and Aeneas succeeded -- by the Roman non-accession year system.

To conclude the surprising early history of Italy, here is a slightly different mode of reckoning the earliest rulers. Anderson's "Royal Genealogies" records, from documents extant in the sixteenth century, the lengths of reigns from the time of Shem's settlement of colonies in Europe. That event may be dated from the "Bavarian Chronicle" to 2214. Gomer 127 (2214-2087); Janus or Noah 45 (2087-2042); Sabatius Saga, a son of Cush who fled Armenia via Germany to Italy, 31 (2042-2011); Cranus 61 (2011-1950); Arunus 41 (1950-1909); Malot Tages 38 (1909-1871); Sicanus 30 (1871-1841); Tyrants 38 (1841-1803); Osyris 10 (1803-1793); Lestrigo 33 (1793-1760); Hercules 30 (1760-1730); Tuscus 35 (1730-1695); Alteus 20 (1695-1675); Atlas Italus Kittim 16 (1675-1659); Morges 9 (1659-1650); Camboblasco 50 (1650-1600); Jasius 49 (1600-1551); Coribantus 41 (1551-1510). Coribantus and his mother set twelve princes over twelve provinces and departed to Phrygia in Asia Minor. As Coribantus is otherwise assigned a total of 48 years (1551-1503), his 41-year reign indicates that the twelve princes governed the last seven years of his reign (1510-1503).


I shall check out what he has researched about Greece and post if it has credible source referencing.


[This message has been edited by CSM (edited 07-11-2004).]

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atalante
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posted 07-11-2004 12:29     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
rockessence,
Malta was the origin of stone architecture around 5000-4000 BC, and it seems to have spawned the Atlantic-megalithic cultures.

The Baltic people remained very primitive in that era. So its unlikely that Baltic people gave any names to places in the Mediterranean Sea.

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atalante
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posted 07-11-2004 16:30     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
CSM,

In your last post (quoting Herman Hoeh) I noticed that it seems to mis-identify Shem.

Shem is almost universally understood by Bible scholars as the forefather of people who speak "Semitic" languages.

Noah's other son Japheth (equaivaent to the Greek titan Iapetos) is almost universally understood by scholars as the forefather of peoples who speak Indo-European languages.

So it seems that Herman Hoeh is a fringe thinker of some sort. (Because he claims that the descendents of Shem have populated most of Europe.)

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atalante
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posted 07-11-2004 17:06     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is another study about where the 10 lost tribes of Israel went during their exile, after being conquored by Assyria around 700 BC. http://www.geocities.com/hiberi/davidiyorigin.html

As you can see by reading the link, many Israelites were exiled westward to Tarshish, and Gallicia. Others moved north-east and merged with the Scythians, etc.

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 07-11-2004).]

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rockessence
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posted 07-11-2004 19:05     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
CSM,
Thank you for the comprehensive answer to my statement...those buggers really got around, didn't they?

I should have mentioned the time-line on the activities of Sven and Dan was around 9000 BP.

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Riven
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posted 07-12-2004 00:40     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Atalante;

I never said the Gebel-Arak knife relates to 40,000 bC. I did say it relates to 4,000 bC though, and an earlier Sea People chronicle.

We always knew that there was ancient sea faring around Australia and Indonesia. Remember when I thought the Phoenicians were the return voyage of the great African migration coming from the Erythranean Sea.

Well a lot can also be said of Peking man and ancient sea voyages also from Asia and the Oceania Pacifica.

Thanks for the info CSM, good post. What I like best about it is the list of Characters around 570 bC that may have heard a whisper.

The Author erroneously places Osiris at a much earlier date than is known and places Herakles around the Greek age. It seems that Herakles is the shadow of Atlas, who he also derived his name from. Atlas should have been prior to 2000 bC according to Melkart, Herkules, Phoenicia. The Egyptians also related Herakles to Schu. What I really think is that Shu was not meant to be enduring, but rather enlightening, raising, the sky. He lifted or put the sky in it's place. Which is true if you think of the geophysical terra forming process of Earth and Life from water. Then the skys fermented and formed after the heat.
And Geb (Earth,Shu) raised Tefnut.

We also have a strong link that the Egyptians called foreigners or western cultures, ATes,which also should relate to the Atlantic and Atlas regions and the Tyrhennian,Aegean areas.

TheBasque,Moroccans,Libyans,Greeks,Italians were all very definitive with this prefix At. Even the Sanskrits in some cases though not extensively. At, seems more like a western heritage. Where the strongest forms seem to be from the Aterian cultures of 40k bC and carried through to the Atalantes regions of Algeria. We know that the Qadan Egyptian cultures also merged to Egypt from here carrying the secrets of their forefathers. Yet, we have King Menes unifying Egypt at 3100 bC. The missing Pharaohs should be from Lower Egypt,like Scorpion King or Narmer. This would make sense because Narmer also depicts a battle and symbolizes a ship with 10 dead bodies. Perhaps meaning the 10 Bows of that region in comparison to the sea and land peoples of that time, and that he was the ruler of all of Egypt and the 10 bows. Unless he passed this down from his father.

Seems quite interesting how all these cultures woke up around 2000 bC. 3000 bC was like the restruction age of technology. Like the rebirth of life from a great enigma.

Such as Atlantis.

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dhill757
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posted 07-12-2004 02:12     Click Here to See the Profile for dhill757     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
CSM,

Great post, you do indeed bring a lot of great new material to the forum and a great new perspective.

Atalante,

I can attest to Riven saying 4,000 b.c., not 40,000 b.c. for the knife. If we can believe that they had sea travel as early as 40,000 b.c., though, to me that even brings even greater credence to the possibility of Atlantis, as well as even, the possibility of an advanced civilization. Consider, six thousand years (4000 b.c. to the present, 2004), when we evolve from canoes to oceanliners, submarines, battleships.

Now consider thirty thousand years (40,000 b.c. to 10,000 b.c.) when Atlantis may or may not have existed. It doesn't take such a stretch of the imagination to assume that there could have been a great sea-faring power in the past (even if they didn't have subs, oceanliners or battleships!) that had some kind of hold over the world.
Atlantis lives!

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CSM
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posted 07-12-2004 06:07     Click Here to See the Profile for CSM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

I was going to post some information on ancient Greece (maybe later), but Atalante and Riven have raised some interesting points that are deserving of further explanation.

Ordinarily I would answer each separately, but both issues are so closely linked it is probably best that they be addressed simultaneously. You are both correct in your observations concerning the text, but not so with the conclusions. Prior to posting another portion of the dissertation, which supplies supporting referencing from Manetho, Sothis and the Palermo stone, I will attempt to briefly summarise.

Shem is credited with being the forefather to the white and light brown races of Europe and the Middle East. Japheth is credited with with being the forefather to the Asiatics, Russians and northern Mediteranean races. They both lived a very long time by our standards AND by the standards of the day. While generations were dying they just kept on living (eventually they died). In Greek mythology they and their immediate children were known as the “deathless ones” because they didn’t seem to die. It is my personal belief that they gave rise to the legends of the Olympian “gods” (and Titans) who had great power and strength, but could die if killed by another “god” and we know from mythology that these “gods” did indeed fight each other and some died from that fighting.

Shem was actually the most powerful, because he had the position of high priest. At times when visiting other “families” he would assume control of that area to ensure that they followed the “straight and narrow” at least while he was there. Shem was also responsible for chasing Osiris (Nimrod) out of Egypt and into Italy, where Shem finally killed him. What follows few people know, but it is all thoroughly documented by the ancient historians.

(Please excuse the manual formatting I had to employ to get the spacing to stay put)

quote:

ON TO EGYPT

The tombs of all the famous heroes who founded Babel are located in Egypt. Egypt early became the second center of civilization. One can now easily understand why both Babylonians and Egyptians claimed to be the first people in the world -- claimed their civilization and their religious customs were the earliest. In Egypt we now trace the history of what occurred immediately after Babel.

EGYPTIAN HISTORY OPENS WITH DYNASTY I.

Its capital was Thinis in Upper Egypt. The names of the first four rulers of Dynasty I are Menes, Athothis, Kenkenes and Uenephes. The spelling of the names is from the Greek of Manetho. The early Egyptian forms vary slightly. Who were these famous individuals?

Athothis, Egypt's second king, was Osiris. The tomb of Athothis at Abydos was "the sepulchre of the god Osiris, and, as such, became the shrine to which millions of pilgrims made their way," declared Arthur Weigall in "A History of the Pharaohs", vol. I, page 111. The Egyptian god Osiris was the Baal of the Phoenicians, the Marduk of the Babylonians, the Tammuz of the Semites, the Nimrod of the Bible.

The Cairo fragment of the Annals of Dynasties I-V preserves a name of the mother of Athothis. She is Hept, meaning "the veiled one." This is a designation of Isis, the mother and wife of Osiris. The Assyrians called Isis or Hept Ishtar or Semiramis. In Scripture she is called Ashtoreth. This woman was originally the queen of Meni. Egypt's first king. She became Athothis' queen and wife after the planned death of Meni. Here is confirmation of the age-old tradition that Nimrod married his own mother. Later, Athothis himself was slain in the 28th year of his reign, according to Plutarch.

The father of Athothis, and Egypt's first king, was Meni or Mena -- Menes in Greek. His name means "The Establisher" ("History of Ancient Egypt", vol. II, p. 26, by George Rawlinson), or "The Everlasting" (Waddell's "Manetho", p. 215) Menes was the first to ESTABLISH himself as king in place of the Everlasting God. Since Menes was the father of Athothis (Nimrod), he is the Cush of the Bible. "And Cush begot Nimrod, he began to be a mighty one in the earth" (Gen. 10:8).

he third name in the first dynasty is Kenkenes, a Greek form of Kenken, meaning "The Terrible." He was born, according to Egyptian tradition, after the death of Osiris. His mother placed him on the throne. She claimed he was the reincarnation of Osiris, or Athothis; hence he is at times called Athothis, or Itit in early fragments. (These various names may be found in Sir Alan Gardiner's "Egypt of the Pharaohs" and in Weigall's "A History of the Pharaohs") He was also named Horus, the son of Isis. Everyone of these famous men of old had many names. Of Nimrod, we read in the Epic of Creation:

"As for us, by however many names we call him, he is our god'
Let us then proclaim his fifty names ...."

Listed fourth in Dynasty I is Uenephes. This king was a woman! She called herself Henneit, meaning "Neit is victorious." Neit is the Egyptian form of the Greek Athena. She also called herself Hept, which means "the veiled one," as already noted. This evidence clearly means that the wife of Meni, or Cush, was the mother and later the wife of Nimrod, and later still the mother of Kenkenes or Horus.

Years later, she even propositioned her own son Horus, called Gilgamesh in Babylonian tradition, as we read in the following extracts from the Epic of Gilgamesh:

"When Gilgamesh had put on his tiara,
Glorious Ishtar raised an eye at the beauty of Gilgamesh:
'Come, Gilgamesh, be thou my lover!
Do but grant me of thy fruit.
Thou shalt be my husband and I will be thy wife'.
Gilgamesh opened his mouth to speak,
Thou art but a brazier which goes out in the cold;
A back door which does not keep out blast and .windstorm;
Pitch which soils its bearers; A waterskin which soaks through its bearer;
A shoe which pinches the foot of its owner!
Which lover didst thou love forever?
Come and I will name for thee thy lovers:
Of .... (the story of Cush is broken from the cuneiform tablet) for Tammuz, the lover of thy youth, Thou hast ordained wailing year after year."

(Consult Pritchard's "Ancient Near Eastern Texts", pages 83-84. Compare the account of Tammuz with Ezekiel 8:14.)


THE CHRONOLOGY OF DYNASTY I

Now we are ready to build the chronology of Egypt and of all ancient history from its beginning. Without a knowledge of who these rulers of Dynasty I are, it would be impossible to make sense of the following lengths of reign. The various pieces of information came originally from a full-length account by Manetho. The abstractors each told only part of the full story. No one list is complete in itself, but taken together -- in the same way the Bible ought to be studied -- every chronological fact makes sense.

_______________Africanus__Eusebius_____Eusebius (Armenian Version)
__________________Years____Years______Years

1. Menes (Cush)_______62 ……..60…………..30
2. Athothis (Nimrod)___57………27…………..25
3. Kenkenes__________31………39…………..39
(Horus or Gilgamesh)
4. Uenephes__________23………42…………..42
(Ishtar or Isis)

Eratosthenes gives 62 for Menes and 59 for Athothis. The immediate comment that all modern historians give, is that the list is corrupt. But they have no proof. They have never assembled these figures to tell the full story. Remember, the full account of what really occurred is lost in Manetho's original work. (A few facts have been reclaimed by archaeology.) Each of the abstractors of Manetho told only part of the story. Like the writers of the four gospels, each viewed what he saw in history from a different perspective. What was important to one, did not appear as important to another. It is time scholarship had a little more respect for the documents they purport to handle so judiciously.

The numbers in this list, as in almost all ancient history and also the Bible, are calendar years. That explains why they are whole figures. The immediate years after the building of Babel are assigned to Cush, although his son Nimrod reigned jointly with him. The account begins with the reign of Cush or Menes. He began to reign in Shinar, not in Egypt. He came to Egypt where he spent his last 30 years. Cush or Menes ruled altogether 62 years, after which Nimrod began his sole rule of 25 years. Nimrod settled in Egypt 60 years after the building of Babel, and reigned two years jointly with his father. His total reign in Egypt was therefore 27 years. Plutarch records that Osiris (Nimrod) had to flee Egypt at the end of 27 years. He was executed in the summer in his 28th year by Shem, in the month of Tammuz, the 17th day according to ancient tradition. These events may thus be clearly dated as follows:

Menes (Cush): 60, 2254-2194 (reign prior to coming of Nimrod)
Athothis (Nisrod): 27, 2194-2167 (total reign in Egypt)
-or-
Menes (Cush): 62, 2254-2192 (total reign of Cush)
Athothis (Nimrod): 25, 2192-2167 (sole reign in Egypt)

Cush came to Egypt about 2222 and united Upper and Lower Egypt under his supreme authority for 30 years -- 2222-2192. This marks the beginning of Cushite, or Ethiopian, settlement in Africa. Cush, at the time of death, may have been nearly 170 years of age. Josephus confirms this restoration of history in "Antiquities" book VIII, chapter vi, sect. 2: "All the kings from Menes, who built Memphis, ... until Solomon ... was more than one thousand three hundred years."

In 2167 Nimrod (Athothis or Osiris) fled to Italy and was slain there. At the flight of Nimrod, his mother-wife Uenephes also had to flee -- tradition states to the Delta. At this point some continued to reckon after the era of Nimrod or Athothis, since he had no male heir. Others reckoned time after his mother-wife who went into hiding. Thirty years passed. Now see how Manetho's figures fit!

It was about 57 years after Nimrod had come to Egypt. Suddenly his widow Uenephes or Isis reappears with a son -- Kenkenes or Horus. Four years later -- 59 years after the death of Menes or Cush, she associates the son with her on the throne of Egypt. Isis or Uenephes thus temporarily triumphs over those who were responsible for the execution of Nimrod.

Eight years later -- 42 years after the death of Nimrod -- the son Horus becomes supreme ruler as his mother turns over to him the reins of government. Horus or Kenkenes reigned altogether 39 years, alone for 31 years. Uenephes therefore reigned, after her return from exile, for 12 years (four years alone and eight years with her son). Afterward she returned to the throne again for 11 years following the departure of Horus for Babylonia, making a total of 23 years. (In Babylon Horus received the name Gilgamesh.) Thus every figure of Manetho, preserved from antiquity, fits. This information may therefore be summarized as follows:

Athothis (Nimrod): 57, 2194-2137 (years from Nimrod's coming into Egypt to return of Isis)
Uenephes (Ishtar): 12, 2137-2125
Kenkenes (Horus): 31, 2125-2094 (sole reign of Horus)
Uenephes -- 11 years more, 2094-2083, making a total of 23.
-or-
Athothis (Nimrod) 27, 2194-2167 (total reign in Egypt)
Uenephes (Ishtar): 42, 2167-2125 (years from flight of Nimrod to sole reign of Horus)
Kenkenes (Horus): 31, 2125-2094
-or-
Athothis (Nimrod): 59, 2192-2133 (years from the death of Cush to reign of Horus)
Kenkenes (Horus): 39, 2133-2094 (total reign of Horus)

It is immediately noticeable that Horus or Gilgamesh left Egypt exactly 100 years after Nimrod left Babylonia to come to Egypt -- 2194-2094. This figure has important significance when we come to comparing Egyptian history with that of the land of Shinar or Sumer, in Mesopotamia.


SHEM IN EGYPT

The first book of Manetho lists four more kings in Dynasty I. Among them is Shem. All classical records agree as to the length of reign. The reconstructed Cairo fragment of the Palermo stone gives different figures, but the same total -- indicating there were contemporary reigns, during which more than one ruler shared the throne. A Biblical parallel to this may be observed in the case of Jehoshaphat and Jehoram in Judah (II Kings 8:16). The figures appear as follows:

_______________Manetho________Palermo Stone Restored
5 Usaphais…….20, 2083-2063……..34, 2083-2049
6 Miebis……….26, 2063-2037…….19, 2049-2030
7 Semempses….18, 2037-2019………9, 2030-2021
8 Bieneches……26, 2019-1993…….28, 2021-1993

The total length of Dynasty I is 261 years -- 2254-1993.

The seventh king is especially significant. His original name in the Egyptian records is Semsem -- meaning the Great Sem or Shem. In the New Testament Greek, Shem is spelled Sem (Luke 3:36). The hieroglyphics representing Shem depict him as an old man with a long beard in priestly garb.

Now consider Miebis, the sixth king, and predecessor of Semsem. His tomb was defaced by Semsem. A later section, in volume II, will reveal Miebis to be Osiris II. He was slain by Semsem. The Egyptians called him Typhon. He was the "father" or ancestor of "Judah and Jerusalem," records Plutarch.

DYNASTY II OF THINIS

The kings of the second dynasty were comparatively insignificant. Other and more powerful rulers were dominating Egypt at this time -- ever since the days of Shem, but who they were will be disclosed only after the chronology of the first eight dynasties is firmly established. The change from Dynasty I to II at this point in history will also become apparent, once we begin to examine parallel dynasties who fought over the possession of Abydos and Thinis.



This may be a digression, but it does provide us with some reasonable historical references about Egypt from some of the oldest and most respected scources known.


[This message has been edited by CSM (edited 07-12-2004).]

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dhill757
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posted 07-13-2004 02:25     Click Here to See the Profile for dhill757     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Once again, very comprehensive, CSM, anymore information to support your theories about the Titans? Compared to Greek mythology (and I look forward to that material, too), very little is known about them, other than the Uranus/Gaia/Hundred-handed story and their war with the gods of Olympus. Supposedly there was a "golden age of man" in the time when the Titans ruled.

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Absonite
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posted 07-13-2004 18:06     Click Here to See the Profile for Absonite     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
CSM,
I had recently posted something from the Urantia book regarding Osiris and Isis in which she was both mother and consort. C.L. Easterwood, a professed expert on Egypt flew into a rage denying the connection that appears in Urantia and then she left this group. Myself, not being an expert in Egyptology thought that there must have been a transcription error in the Urantia papers until now I read your quote saying that Isis was both mother and consort to Osiris. Well, will wonders never cease.

"The Cairo fragment of the Annals of Dynasties I-V preserves a name of the mother of Athothis. She is Hept, meaning "the veiled one." This is a designation of Isis, the mother and wife of Osiris. The Assyrians called Isis or Hept Ishtar or Semiramis. In Scripture she is called Ashtoreth. This woman was originally the queen of Meni. Egypt's first king. She became Athothis' queen and wife after the planned death of Meni. Here is confirmation of the age-old tradition that Nimrod married his own mother."

From Urantia: http://www.urantia.com/cgi-bin/webglimpse/mfs/usr/local/www/data/papers?link=http://mercy.urantia.org/papers/paper98.html&file=/usr/local/www/data/papers/paper98.html&line=89#mfs
http://www.urantia.com/cgi-bin/webglimpse/mfs/usr/local/www/data/papers?link=http://mercy.urantia.org/papers/paper95.html&file=/usr/local/www/data/papers/paper95.html&line=109#mfs

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CSM
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posted 07-14-2004 04:37     Click Here to See the Profile for CSM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Absonite,

Many people do get emotional about various things and emotion is not a bad thing so long as it does not impare judgement to the extent that historical facts are ignored just because we don't like them.

As I said from the outset, I was impressed with this thread because of the detailed referencing. I am still impressed with the credible detailed referencing and the quiet objectivity of the thread. It is a delight and a learning experience.

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atalante
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posted 07-14-2004 04:48     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Absonite,
I doubt that Isis was the mother of Osiris.

Both of them were members of the Ennead, the nine great gods of Egypt's pantheon. Isis and Osiris were born at approximately the same time. They were brother and sister of each other, as can be verified by anyone who understands ancient Egypt.

You can look it up. Here is a google search to help you. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=isis+ennead&btnG=Google+Search

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 07-14-2004).]

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Helios
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posted 07-16-2004 02:20     Click Here to See the Profile for Helios     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This should be of interest to you, Atalante, as well as others. This article deals with Egyptian sea battles, with several pictures of the vessels they used, including another depiction of their battles with the Sea People:
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/navy.htm


The Ancient Egyptian Navy
by Troy Fox

Predynastic through Middle Kingdom

The use of river vessels and ships in Egyptian warfare is as old as conflict in Egypt itself, though probably at first there was little capability for sea travel. The Nile was always the principal means of transport in Egypt, and the sailing and construction of boats can be traced back to the papyrus rafts of the Predynastic Period. Boats (see also Bargues, Barges and Byblos Boats) were commonly depicted in red paint on the buff colored pottery of the Naqada II Period. 

The very earliest naval battle is depicted on the carved relief decoration of a Naqada II ivory knife handle that was found at Gebel al-Arak. It shows boats with high, straight prows and sterns, usually interpreted as foreign vessels. The early Nile boats used for military purposes seem to have been primarily used for the transportation of troops up and down the Nile, and indeed, Egypt's early conflicts were mostly internal control issues. 

We do find reliefs in the 5th Dynasty mortuary temple of King Sahure at Abusir depicting a sea-borne fleet that is said to have transported his army to Syria, and in the 6th Dynasty, the official Weni is said to have taken troops to Palestine in vessels described as nmiw (traveling ships). 

Keelless seagoing vessels like those during the time of King Sahure (2500 BCE) traded with the Phoenician cities, importing cedar wood, Asiatic slaves and other merchandise. They were also sent as the first Egyptian trade expedition to the Land of Punt.  The bipedal mast carried a vertical sail, and the bow was decorated with an eye.  It was steered by six oars and had.  The bow was decorated with an eye.  


" I went down on the sea in a ship of one hundred and fifty cubits long and forty cubits wide, with one hundred and fifty sailors of the best of Egypt who had seen heaven and earth, and whose hearts were stronger than lions."

Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor, c. 2200 BCE 


However, most Egyptian vessels were not suitable for sailing in the Mediterranean or the Red Sea. The idea of sea going ships was probably imported from the Levantine seaboard, and most likely from the region of Byblos. There was certainly a strong connection in the Egyptian minds between Byblos and naval activity, since the most common word for an Egyptian sea vessel was kbnt, literally meaning "Byblos-boat". 

Sea going boats used by both the Egyptians and their neighbors were relatively simple, consisting of a rectangular sail and usually one or two rudder oars. However, the Palermo Stone records the construction of a ship fifty two meters in length during the reign of king Sneferu of the 3rd Dynasty, and in the 5th Dynasty tomb of Ti at Saqqara, boat builders are depicted at work on another very large vessel. 


The Boat Construction in the Tomb of Ti at Saqqara

The New Kingdom

In the New Kingdom, we see a much reorganized Egyptian Army, becoming more professional, whereas before, it was often not a standing army, but rather an army mostly made up of conscripts. Prior to the New Kingdom, Egypt's navy was probably made up mostly of ships and boats that served a dual purpose, operating as commercial vessels when not utilized for war. We know most about the navy during the New Kingdom, when there was considerable activity, including actual sea battles. Yet even then, the "navy" was not seen as a separate service of the Egyptian military, and it was mostly used for amphibious operations. 

During this period, Egypt's navy was extensive. Despite the fact that Egypt had a long history of building boats, including large sea going vessels during the New Kingdom, we find, for example in the Amarna Letters, a request from to the King of Alashiya (Cyprus) to built ships for the Egyptian navy. 

Bigger ships of seventy to eighty tons suited to long voyages became quite common (In size they might be compared to Columbus's Santa Maria with a displacement of 100 tons or his smaller ships with about fifty). 

Egyptian squadrons composed of speedy keftiu, kebentiu from Byblos and Egyptian transports patrolled the eastern Mediterranean. The very earliest New Kingdom pharaohs, specifically Kamose and Ahmose, conducted naval operations in their war against the Hyksos, and later Tuthmosis III had a large fleet built at the royal dockyard at Perunefer, near Memphis. Those ships were used to transport elements of the army along the coast to ports in the Lebanon on a number of occasions in support of his operations against the city states of southern Syria and Mitanni. Many of those ships were actually converted cargo vessels. However, the best illustration of Egyptian warships in action are to be found on the walls of the temple at Medinet Habu. These illustrate the defeat of the Sea People during the reign of Ramesses III, and probably represent the first properly documented sea battle. 

Unlike the later Greeks who developed special naval techniques (used also by Late Period Egypt), maritime battles by New Kingdom Egyptians and their opponents, often the Sea People, were fought by seaborne land troops, who were trained in marine operations. The Egyptian deployment of archers and the fact that Egyptian ships could both be sailed and rowed, gave them a decisive advantage, despite the inferiority of the vessels themselves, which were at times quite sizable and carried up to two hundred and fifty soldiers. 

However, most Egyptian ships carried a crew of about fifty marines. Though essentially all fighting men, about 20 members of the crew would be delegated to row the vessel while the remainder formed the combat troops for a seagoing battle. These battles would be fought at a very close range, as the marines would attempt to rake the enemy vessel with arrows and sling shots. Other elements would throw grappling hooks into the riggings of the opponent ships with the object of either capsizing or boarding the enemy ships. When boarding the enemy ship, the Egyptians would then use spears for close order thrusting while under cover of archery from their own ship.

Not all victories were the result of direct, brute force, however, for the Egyptians were also good tacticians. Hence, in one battle with the Sea People, the Egyptian success was effected by a carefully laid trap in which the Egyptians herded the enemy vessels towards shore, where ranks of archers poured arrows onto their decks. 


The Egyptian Battle with the Sea People

Models of the ships used to defeat the sea people show Egyptian vessels with high bulwarks that could protect sailors and soldiers from enemy projectiles. In these examples, eighteen oars gave the ships the maneuverability which was a decisive factor in the Egyptian victory.  Like all Egyptian ships of this period, it was not laid on a keel, but got its structural strength from a gangway connecting stern to bow. It had a single mast with a horizontal sail. The bow was decorated with a lion's head crushing a human skull. 

But usually the navy was little more than a means for getting land troops quickly to the Asiatic coast. It was a transport system that pharaohs such as Tuthmosis III employed with great success. 

The Late Period

However, Egypt lost its role of maritime superpower after the end of the New Kingdom. Phoenicians and Greeks became the main players in the Mediterranean. Continental powers like the Persians used these sea-faring nations to impose their control on the seas.  King Necho II (609-594 BCE) invested huge sums in the development of an Egyptian war fleet. According to Herodotus he had triremes built in both the Mediterranean and the Red Sea. Some scholars think that the ships he built were biremes and the development of the trireme took place in the next century and was part of the Egyptian war effort against Persia. It was unsuccessful and thereafter its fleet was at the behest of the foreign power controlling the country. Dozens of Egyptian ships were incorporated into the Persian fleet fighting the Greeks. The last of the Ptolemies, Queen Cleopatra VII joined forces with the Roman Marc Antony, in an attempt to preserve Egypt's independence. But her fleet was defeated at Actium, which spell the end of pharaonic Egypt. 

References:
Title Author Date Publisher Reference Number
Armies of the Pharaohs Healy, Mark 1992 Osprey Publishing ISBN 1 85532 939 5
Dictionary of Ancient Egypt, The Shaw, Ian; Nicholson, Paul 1995 Harry N. Abrams, Inc., Publishers ISBN 0-8109-3225-3
Egyptian Treasures from the Egyptian Museum in Cairo Tiradritti, Francesco, Editor 1999 Harry N. Abrams, Inc. ISBN 0-8109-3276-8
Egyptian Warfare and Weapons Shaw, Ian 1991 Shire Publications LTD ISBN 0 7478 0142 8
History of Ancient Egypt, A Grimal, Nicolas 1988 Blackwell None Stated
Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, The Shaw, Ian 2000 Oxford University Press ISBN 0-19-815034-2
Warrior Pharaoh, The: Rameses II and the Battle of Qadesh Healy, Mark 1993 Osprey Publishing ISBN 1 84176 039 0

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Absonite
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posted 07-16-2004 07:10     Click Here to See the Profile for Absonite     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
possible sea people and the people of the bow explained.

"Charles Pellegrino ("Return to Sodom and Gomorrah: Bible Stories from Archaeologists"), cites different texts, specifically the Ipuwer papyrus, dating to the time of Hatshepsut and Tutmosis III (the time most copies, according to Pellegrino, seem to date) .

"The poem consists of the wise man Ipuwer's description of a mysteriously devastated Egypt and his rage against the Sun-god, who has abandoned the Nile and to whom he appears to be speaking:


[The poem:] The land -- to its whole extent confusion and terrible noise...for nine days there was no exit from the palace and no one could see the face of his fellow. ...Upper Egypt suffered devastation...blood is everywhere...pestilence throught the country...The Sun is covered and does not shine to the sight of men. Life is no longer posssible when the Sun is concealed behind the clouds. Ra has turned his face from mankind. If only it would shine even for one hour! No one knows when it is midday. One's shadow is not discernible. The Sun in the heavens resembles the moon...Lo, the desert pervades the land, townsips are laid waste, a foreign bow people are come to Egypt! People flee...and it is tents that they make like bedu [nomads]."

One could say that this was refering to a sand storm and the invasion of the Hyksos, or one could view it as Pellegrino does, as refering to the eruption of Thera, the plaques of the Exodus, and the fleeing of the Israelites (the papyrus mentions clouds, but it also mentions sand). However, that leaves the question as to whom the people of the bow are that "come to Egypt", perhaps the Amalekites (boo) we met on the way were headed for Egypt en mass...our only meeting some of them? Perhaps not. Pelligrino himself connects it to the Isrealites comming into Egypt in Exodus 1:1, but that refers to our entry many years before, so I have a problem with his analysis of that. I think a better argument could be made that the people of the bow that came were the Sea People.


Exodus 13:17 aays: "And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that G-d led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for G-d said, Lest perhaps the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt"

What was the war that was refered to on the way of the land of the Philistines? Who exactly were the Philistines? What is the connection with the bow? A few more passages from the Tanach will help clearify this matter.


I Samuel 31:1-3 "And the Philistines fought against Israel; and the men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down killed in Mount Gilboa. And the Philistines followed closely upon Saul and upon his sons; and the Philistines slew Jonathan, and Abinadab, and Melchishua, Saul’s sons. And the battle went hard against Saul, and the archers hit him; and he was badly wounded by the archers.

It would seem that the Philistines did indeed use the bow. Amos 9:7 teaches us where the Philistines came from: "Are you not like the Kushites to me, O people of Israel? says the Lord. Did I not bring Israel out of the land of Egypt? And the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Arameans from Kir?" Caphtor is an island, the Philistines are the Sea People. Furthermore, there was a war between them and Egypt in the 2nd half of the 2nd millennim B.C.E. It would seem, that they were fleeing from their islands and at war with Egypt during the time of the Exodus, likely because of the devistation the eruption of Thera caused during that time. G-d, causing the eruption so as to bring the plagues upon Egypt, did indeed bring the Philistines from Caphtor. An Egyptian account of the war comes from a temple at Medinat Habu at Thebes, said to belong to Ramses III (1184-1153). That does not mean that it necessarily occured during Ramses III's time, but that it was commemorated in one of his temples. The Tanachic record makes it clear that there was war in the way of the Philistines, and this inscription speaks of that war with those who may just be the very same people of the bow spoken of in the Ipwar papyrus.


"Year 8 under the majesty of...
...The foreign countries make a conspiracy in their islands. All at once the lands were removed and scatterd in the fray. No land could stand before their arms, from Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arzawa, and Alashiya on, being cut of at... A camp... in one place in Amor. They desolated its people, and its land was like that which has never come into being. They were coming forward toward Egypt, while the flame was prepared before them. There confederation was the Philistines, Tjeker, Shekelesh, Denye(n), and Weshesh, lands united. They laid their hands upon the lands as far as the circuit of the earth, their hearts confident and trusting: 'Our plans will succeed!'..." (inscription from a temple at Medinat Habu at Thebes in The Ancient Near East, Ed. James B. Pritchard, p 185.)

The attack took place on both land and sea, and Egypt succeeded in repulsing them from their soil, though not from having them entrench on the cost of the Land of Israel
http://www.geocities.com/~alyza/Jewish/exodus.htm


But Moses was not discouraged; he bided his time, and in less than a year, when the Egyptian military forces were fully occupied in resisting the simultaneous onslaughts of a strong Libyan thrust from the south and a Greek naval invasion from the north, this intrepid organizer led his compatriots out of Egypt in a spectacular night flight. This dash for liberty was carefully planned and skillfully executed. And they were successful, notwithstanding that they were hotly pursued by Pharaoh and a small body of Egyptians, who all fell before the fugitives' defense, yielding much booty, all of which was augmented by the loot of the advancing host of escaping slaves as they marched on toward their ancestral desert home.
http://www.urantia.com/cgi-bin/webglimpse/mfs/usr/local/www/data/papers?link=http://mercy.urantia.org/papers/paper96.html&file=/usr/local/www/data/papers/paper96.html&line=79#mfs

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atalante
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posted 07-16-2004 08:17     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Helios,
I like the article in your most recent post.
It mentions the Gebel Arak knife, which Riven frequently mentions.

Has anyone noticed this: the article gives us an official Egyptian word for sea-going boats, kbnt, which scholars tend to translate at "Byblos boats".

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dhill757
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posted 07-20-2004 22:47     Click Here to See the Profile for dhill757     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does anyone have any material, not seen so far here, of the Sea People (and, in this, we can include, for argument's sake, the Minoans, the Etruscans, the Phoenicians or any of the other people we've talked about, even the Egyptians if you like), of any of these races building an empire, let alone a city made of alternating concentric rings of water and land, described by Plato on his Atlantis works? Because, other than the same superficial comparisons we've always been hearing about, I haven't seen any.

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Absonite
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posted 07-21-2004 00:26     Click Here to See the Profile for Absonite     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
dhill,

let's start with a few concentric circles and see where it goes.......
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Early%20History%20-%20Archaeology/Rogem%20Hiri%20-%20Ancient-%20Mysterious%20Construction
http://www.geocities.com/tlscbose/NazcaArticlepart-1.htm
http://www.ancient-scotland.co.uk/picframe.php?a=777
http://lakdiva.org/sakwala/sakwala.html
http://www.hialoha.com/konagold/church/Photos.html
http://www.urantia.com/cgi-bin/webglimpse/mfs/usr/local/www/data/papers?link=http://mercy.urantia.org/papers/paper93.html&file=/usr/local/www/data/papers/paper93.html&line=46#mfs

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rockessence
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posted 07-21-2004 01:15     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Absonite,
The beautiful circle/labyrinth at Rogem Hiri is very much like those of Finland. The ritual uses apparently were for various reasons, some strictly for men, some for women, for choosing those allowed to become parents. One was called Nun's Yard, probably for women who were not allowed to have children. I understand these various labyrinths are the oldest on the planet.

From Leo Nygren:

" THE LABYRINTH IS PLENTIFULLY BEING SEEN IN FINLAND, WHERE IT'S USE WAS PERHAPS MOST AND LATEST PRACTICED, ALL THE WAY FROM THE BOTTOM OF GULF OF FINLAND TO THE END OF GULF OF BOTHNIA, ALONG THE SHORELINE, AND AT ISLANDS TOO.
IT WAS MADE OF ROUND STONES ABOUT THE SIZE OF A FOOTBALL, THE DIAMETER OF THE LABYRINTH BEING FROM TEN METERS TO 25 METERS, ON SOME FLAT SPOT OF GROUND.

IN FINLAND IT WAS KNOWN WITH MANY NAMES; JATULIN TARHA (JATULIS YARD), NUNNATARHA (NUNS YARD), PIETARIN LEIKKI (PETER'S PLAY), NEITOTANSSI ( GIRL'S DANCE), JERUSALEM, TROIJA (TROY), JERIKOTOWN, AND IN ”ROOT” JUNGFRU'S DANCE AND TROIJA LEK (PLAY) . (JATULIS, ”GIANTS”, CANNOT BE EXPLAINED IN ENGLISH, ”LEK” MEANS ”SPAWN”, TO MULTIPLY.)

IN AMERICAS IT WAS KNOWN BY INDIANS WITH THE NAME ”MOTHER EARTH”.

THOSE NAMES LET US TO SUPPOSE THAT IT WAS USED SOLELY FOR CHECKING THE CANDIDATES FOR MOTHER- AND FATHERHOOD, IN A FERTILITY RITE.

THE CANDIDATES HAD TO DANCE THROUGH IT, STAYING BETWEEN LINES, PASSING THE JUDGES SEVEN TIMES, WOMEN DANCING A BELLYDANCE NAKED SO THAT THE JUDGES SAW THAT THEIR PELVIS WAS SWINGING FREELY, THEIR BELLY MUCLES HAD TO BE WELL FORMED TO GUARANTEE EASY DELIVERY AND BREASTS HAD TO SHOW THE NIPPLE TO BE EASILY SUCKED BY THE BABY. THERE WERE THREE WOMEN TO JUDGE THEM, NO MEN WERE ALLOWED TO SEE IT.

MEN WHO HAD REACHED THE ADULT AGE OF 21 DANCED THE SO-CALLED "COSSACK" DANCE, RIPASKA IN FINNISH, WHICH REQUIRES A LOT OF STAMINA AS YOU ARE ALMOST IN A SITTING POSITION THROWING YOUR LEGS HIGH UP, HANDS KEPT IN FRONT BY THE CHEST. THEY WERE ALSO NAKED SO THAT THEIR MANLY ORGANS WERE SHOWING TO MEN JUDGES, AND WOMEN WERE NOT ALLOWED TO SEE IT.

MANY OF THOSE NAMES SUGGESTS THAT THE LABYRINTH WAS JUST FOR THIS PURPOSE, AS THOSE WHO DID NOT MANAGE THIS TEST NEVER HAD THE CHANCE TO BE FATHERS OR MOTHERS, AS THE NAME ”NUNS YARD” SUGGESTS."

Some text omitted because of sexual content...see www.bocksaga.de

"THIS LABYRINTH IS BEING FOUND IN MANY PLACES, ALL SCANDINAVIA AND IN MANY EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, GREECE, NEAR EAST COUNTRIES, AT CRETE AND AT THE COINS OF ETRUSK'S AND CRETAN'S. AT CENTRAL AMERICA IT IS KNOWN BY MAYAS AND MOST PROBABLY BY MANY OTHER PEOPLE TOO.
EVEN AT THE SHORES OF NORTHERN ICE SEA, AT KUOLA PENINSULA, IT IS BEING FOUND.
AND IF YOU STUDY IT CLOSELY, IT'S SHAPE RESEMBLES THAT OF A CROSS-SECTION OF WOMAN'S HIP, WOMB AND ALL.

THIS DANCE WAS BUT ONLY ONE OF THE SERIES OF TESTS THE FATHER AND MOTHER CANDIDATES HAD TO GO THROUGH TO BE ELIGIBLE FOR THE MOST IMPORTANT TASK THERE WAS FOR MANKIND, TO KEEP HUMAN POPULATION AS HEALTHY, BEAUTIFULL AND WISE AS POSSIBLE, BUT HOW ABOUT NOW WHEN THIS IS NOT CONTROLLED AT ALL?

IT'S A PITY THAT MANY OF THESE WORDS OF BOCK SAGA THAT TELL ABOUT THE PHILOSOPHY OF VÄINÄMÖINEN HAVE ”HIDDEN” MEANINGS THAT CAN BE EXPLAINED ONLY BY USING THE ”ROT” (PRESENT SWEDISH) AND ”VAN” (PRESENT FINNISH) LANGUAGES, THE FIRST ONES.

THIS ”JATULINTARHA SEREMONY” WAS TAKEN TO DELOS AT 1600 BZ BY THE TWO DAMSELS, ARGE AND OPIS, AS THE FIRST ”OLYMPIC GAME”."

[This message has been edited by rockessence (edited 07-21-2004).]

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Ulf Richter
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posted 07-21-2004 12:59     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulf Richter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is a website which suggests that the Sea Peoples originally came from northern Europe:
http://home.t-online.de/home/dhobraasch/1-sea-people.htm

Sea-People coming from the North?

Neolithic Northernes could have reached the Mediterranean going by boat downward the European rivers

Because of the abrupt break in ancient Near Eastern records - as a result of the invasions -, the precise extent and origin of the European - Near East upheavals remain uncertain. Principal but one-sided evidence for the Sea Peoples is based on Egyptian texts and illustrations; other important information comes from Hittite sources and from archaeological data.
There are very few clues to their place of origin or homeland. May be that biology may give a new reference. If it is true that people with blond or red hair originated in the isolated North then the following might be of interest:
"On certain sculptural reliefs (Medinet Habu), some of the original painted color still remains. From the color, it is evident that the Libu were fair-skinned, blue eyed, and blond or red headed. Because of this supposed "European" look, it has been suggested that these people were invaders of European origin. Whatever their origin, such people may have been in the region since the distant past" (Robbin) (*distant past*: since the appearance of the Tamahu ?)
Beside biology, technical references also point to the North

Greetings from Ulf


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rockessence
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posted 07-21-2004 21:18     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ulf,

Thanks for the good link. Vikings were mentioned which is a problem, as the appellation "Vikings" is a much later term than should be used for the "Hyperborean" sea-farers.

Also there is some information in HOMER IN THE BALTIC (FELICE VINCI) about the river migrations, over quite a long period, from the Baltic Sea/Gulf of Finland area down the Dvina, the Dniepr, and the Volga. These migrations began in earnest when the temperature of the northern areas dropped at the close of the "climatic optimum".

There is great indication that there were migrations both by sea-vessels around Iberia and by river systems.

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rockessence
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posted 07-21-2004 21:57     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In the seventeenth century, Fray Pedro Simon relates that some miners, running an adit into a hill near Callao,

[1. Bancroft's "Native Races," vol. iii, p. 71.]

{p. 346}

"met with a ship, which had on top of it the great mass of the hill, and did not agree in its make and appearance with our ships."

Sir John Clerk describes a canoe found near Edinburgh, in 1726. "The washings of the river Carron discovered a boat thirteen or fourteen feet under ground; it is thirty-six feet long and four and a half broad, all of one piece of oak. There were several strata above it, such as loam, clay, shells, moss, sand, and gravel."

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Helios
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http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gerald_larue/otll/chap7.html

The Hittite nation, centered in Anatolia, arose during the second millennium (the period of the Old Empire),13 when Indo-Europeans took control of the existing native population and established a feudal nobility under a monarch with limited powers. Some attempts at expansion were made around 1800 B.C., but it was not until the sixteenth century that the Hittites pushed into Syria and then eastward to Babylon. In the New Empire (c. 1460-1200 B.C.), Hittite power again affected Syria and Upper Mesopotamia, incorporating the kingdoms of the Mitanni14 and engaging in clashes with Egyptians. Hittite documents indicate that wars generally ended with settlement treaties which clearly reveal the use of diplomatic strategy. One contribution of these people to Near Eastern culture is the use of iron. Between the fourteenth and twelfth centuries, Hittites, used iron for weapons, holding a virtual monopoly on this product. Weakened by internal problems and by the invasion of Syria by Sea Peoples, the Hittite empire finally fell under attacks from less civilized peoples from the North. Hittite power was never again a threatening force in the Near East. After the collapse of the Hittite empire in the twelfth century, iron came into common use in Palestine, first among the Philistines, then among the Hebrews.15

The Philistines, the Peleste branch of the Sea People, settled in Palestine in the twelfth century BC. While it cannot be proven beyond all shadow of doubt, it is believed on the basis of pottery similarities that they are related to the Mycenaeans whose beginnings go back to the nineteenth century when waves of Indo-Europeans invaded Greece. During the fourteenth and thirteenth centuries, the Mycenaeans developed a tremendous export industry and their pottery was shipped to important Mediterranean centers. In the twelfth century some upset seems to have occurred in Mycenaean life, perhaps an Earthquake, disrupting normal settled life. Bands of people usually associated with Mycenaeans began to roam the seas, apparently seeking a new place to settle. These "Sea People," as they are called in Egyptian literature, first threatened the delta during the reign of Rameses II and were defeated by his successor Mernephtah. The participants are called Danaans and Achaeans, names used by Homer to designate Greeks.16 It appears that Cyprus, Ras es-Shamra, and the Hittite country, were also attacked at this time.17

A second wave of Sea People, which broke into two parts, followed the first. One group, the Tjikal or Tjeker, struck north Syria. The other, the Peleste or Pulusatu, attacked Egypt. After a bitter land and sea battle they were prevented from entering Egypt proper and were held to the area known as the Philistine Plain in southern Palestine. Here they settled in five major cities: Ashkelon. Ashdod, Ekron, Gath and Gaza, but their activities and holdings were much more extensive as revealed by excavations at Tell Qasile, Gezer, Beth Shan and elsewhere. The northern group settled the seacoast around Tyre and Sidon, an area ultimately called "Phoenicia" by the Greeks.18

We know something of Philistine dress. Rameses III depicted the sea battle in his mortuary temple at Medinet Habu and the Philistines are shown wearing kilts and armored vestments. On their heads were high feathered headresses with chin straps and they carried huge round shields, bronze swords and spears. Those who attacked by land were similarly attired and came in horse drawn chariots and carts drawn by oxen. The same feathered headdress is depicted on a sarcophagus from Tell Far'a.

It would appear that the Philistines were organized along the state pattern with local rulers for each unit. Little is known of their industry, apart from the characteristic pottery and the reference to the control of the iron industry (I Sam. 13:19 ff). Whatever their language may have been, it would appear that they soon adopted the Canaanite tongue, for they appear to have had little difficulty in communicating with the Hebrews.19 Like other peoples in Palestine, they suffered the pressures of the great powers around them, utterly disappearing from history after the neo-Babylonian period (sixth century) and leaving only their name to designate the territory they partially occupied (Palestine).20

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Helios
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posted 07-22-2004 00:39     Click Here to See the Profile for Helios     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.fact-index.com/s/se/sea_peoples.html

Sea Peoples

Sea Peoples is the term used in ancient Egyptian records of a ship-faring raiders who drifted into the eastern shores of the Mediterranean and attempted to enter Egyptian territory during the late 19th dynasty, and especially year 5 of Rameses III of the 20th Dynasty.


Historic Records

The earliest mention of the Sea People proper is in an inscription of the Egyptian king Merneptah, whose rule is usually dated from 1213 BC to 1204 BC. Merneptah states that in the fifth year of his reign (1208 BC) he defeated an invasion of an allied force of Libyans and the Sea People, killing 6,000 soldiers and taking 9,000 prisoners.

About 20 years later the Egyptian king Ramses III was forced to deal with another invasion of the Sea Peoples, this time allied with the Philistines. In the mortuary temple he built in Thebes Ramses describes how, despite the fact "no land could stand before" the forces of the Sea People and that they swept through "Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arzawa, and Alashiya" destroying their cities, he defeated them in a sea battle. He gives the names of the tribes of the Sea People as including: the Peleset, the Tjeker, the Shekelesh, the Denyen, and the Weshesh. However, because this list is identical to the one Merneptah included in his victory inscription and because Ramses also describes several fictitious victories on his temple walls, some Egyptologists believe that he never actually fought the Sea Peoples, but only claimed the victories of Merneptah as his own - a common ancient Egyptian practice.

A Sea People appear in another set of records problematically dated around the early 12th century BC. Ammurapi, the last king of Ugarit (c.1191 BC - 1182 BC) received a letter from the Hittite king Suppliluliuma II warning him about the "Shikalayu who live on boats" who are perhaps the same people as the Shekelesh mentioned in Merneptah's list. It may be relevant that shortly after he received this communication, Ammurapi was overthrown and the city of Ugarit sacked, never to be inhabited again.


Theories about the Sea Peoples

The abrupt end of several civilizations in the decades traditionally dated around 1200 BC have caused many ancient historians to hypothesize that the Sea People caused the collapse of the Hittite, Mycenaean and Mittani kingdoms. However, Marc Van De Mieroop and others have argued against this theory on several points. Grimal argues that the kingdoms of the Mittani, Assyria, and Babylon were more likely destroyed by a group who dwelled on the edges of the settled lands called by the Akkadian word habiru. Another argument Grimal makes is that the attempted Sea People invasion of Egypt that Ramses III foiled is now seen as nothing more than a minor skirmish, the records of his victories on his temple walls being greatly exaggerated. Though it is clear from the archeological excavations that Ugarit, Ashkelon and Hazor were destroyed about this time, Carchemish was not and other cities in the area such as Byblos and Sidon survived unscathed.

Another theory concerning the Sea People, based on their recorded names, is that they may have been formed of people involved in the Greek migrations of this period, either the Greek-speaking invaders (identifying the "Ekwesh" with the Achaeans and the "Denyen" with the Dananoi, an ancient name for the Greek people). This theory implies that the Philistines were part of this Greek-speaking confederacy.

Lack of definite information about these ancient forerunners of the Vikings is the chief cause of their mystery, rather than anything concerning their intrinsic nature. As abruptly as they enter history, the Sea People leave it.

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Helios
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THE SEA PEOPLES Students of European history will be familiar in a general way with thephenomena of the devolution of Classic cultures, the swarming forth of innumerable barbarian tribes, and the subsequent emergence of the so-called "Dark Ages", together with the slow re-emergence of a vibrant civilization in the Mediaeval and Renaissance eras. Such a model is an oversimplification of what occured, but it is valid at least in broad descriptive outline. What is perhaps less well recognized is that such a pattern has happened, albeit on a smaller scale, before. Before the 1200's BCE, the Eastern Mediterranean played host to a variety of sophisticated civilizations. For a variety of reasons, the 17th to 13th centuries BCE saw a general retreat, one which did not begin to reverse itself until the 9th century BCE (leading to the eventual flowering of Classic-Age civilization by the 5th century). One important factor in this process was the sudden emergence of a group of barbarian tribes known collectively as the Sea-Peoples. These raiders critically damaged the ancient civilizations of Greece, Anatolia and Syria, and seriously threatened the southern Levant and Egypt. The origins of these peoples are unknown, though it is believed that they emerged  from the Aegean and may have been Minoan or Greek in origin. They referred to their own homeland as Ahhiyawa, which seems to be related to the word Achaean. The Hittites described their home as an island near Milawanda (Miletos, on the Ionian coast); which may refer to Rhodes, while the Bible describes their origin-point as Caphtor, which is believed to be Crete. They were technologically and artistically sophisticated, being one of the first groups in the Levant to use iron weapons. The following is a list of the documented Sea Peoples, and what linguists and archeologists believe about their origins and eventual fates...

DANYA / DANNUNA They have been identified with the Danaoi, mentioned in Homer's Iliad; another, far-fetched explanation is that they are related to the Gaelic Celts (Danaan). Some historians and acheologists have suggested that the Danya invaded Canaan in alliance with the Philistines but then joined the Israelite tribal confederation as the tribe of Dan. The original territory of that tribe bordered Philistia, and the Philistines seemed to bear a particular grudge against the Danites, who eventually relocated to the Galilee.

EKWESH This name is very similar to the Hittite name for Greeks (Acheans). Very little is known about them.

LUKKA These are believed to have hailed from Lycia, and probably returned there after several unsuccessful invasions of Egypt.

PELESHET These are the Philistines who settled in the southern coast of Canaan and established the pentapolis of Gaza, Gath, Ekron, Ashkelon and Ashdod. They may have invaded Canaan originally in alliance with the Israelites, who settled in the inland areas, but any collegiality quickly disappeared if Biblical records are anything to go by. The name Palestine, given to Judea by the Romans after the Jewish Wars, is believed to be derived from Philistine, although some scholars have suggested that it actually (ironically) comes from a derogatory Greek epithet for Jew.

SHARDANA Formerly, it was thought that this people migrated out of the Hellenic region, crossed the central Mediterranean, and conquered Sardinia, which still bears a variant of their name. Recently though, it has been suggested that the migration was in the opposite direction - that they were aboriginal inhabitants of Sardinia who traveled eastward into the Hellenic littoral.

TJEKER / SHEKELESH The Tjeker are of uncertain origin, but they raided Egypt repeatedly before settling in northern Canaan. They may originally have been the Teucri, a tribe inhabiting northwest Anatolia around Troy. They conquered the city-state of Dor and turned it into a Tjeker kingdom. They are one of the few of the Sea Peoples for whom a ruler's name is recorded - in the papyrus account of Wenamun, an Egyptian priest...


* Beder (Prince of Dor)........................mid 1000's BCE ?
* Dor fell to King David of Israel in the 990's, and the Tjeker are not mentioned after that date.


Besides the Dorite Tjeker, some scholars believe that the Tjeker may have been connected in some way with the Israelite tribe of Menasseh.

TYRSENNOI May be related to the Etruscans, since their name is similar to Tyrrhennoi, the Etruscans' name for themselves (hence the Tyrrhian sea).

WESHESH Their origins are unknown, though there is some evidence that they may have come from the area of Caria. Some have theorized that they, like the Danya, became part of the Israelite confederacy (as the tribe of Asher).
http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/gktrib.html#Sea%20People

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Helios
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posted 07-22-2004 01:00     Click Here to See the Profile for Helios     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.courses.psu.edu/cams/cams400w_aek11/www/

The Inscriptions of Medinet Habu

By Michele MacLaren, Liam McManus, and Megaera Lorenz

Ramesses III's temple at Medinet Habu. Image from the Theban Mapping Project website.

    When studying the Sea Peoples, scholars turn to one of the most detailed and well known texts concerning the Sea Peoples, the inscriptions from Medinet Habu.
    Medinet Habu is a mortuary temple that was constructed for Ramesess III at Thebes, in Upper Egypt. The temple decoration consists of a series of reliefs and texts telling of the many exploits of the king, from his campaign against the Libyans to, most importantly, his war against the Sea Peoples.
    The texts and reliefs that deal with the Sea Peoples date to year eight of Ramesess III’s reign, approximately 1190 BCE. The significance of these texts is that they provide an account of Egypt’s campaign against the “coalition of the sea” from an Egyptian point of view. In the inscriptions, Ramesses alludes to the threat the Sea Peoples posed, as can be seen in this portion of text:

…the foreign countries made a conspiracy in their islands. All at once the lands were removed and scattered in the fray.  No land could stand before their arms from Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Artawa, and Alashiya on being cut off [at one time].  A camp was [set up] in one place in Amor.  They desolated its people and its land was like that which has never come into being.  (Medinet Habu, Year 8 inscription.)

    The inscriptions go on to specify the groups which were involved in the "confederation": Peleset, Tjeker, Shekelesh, Denyen, and Weshesh.
    Although Ramesses III boasts of his defeat of the Sea Peoples' coalition on land and sea, the portion of text quoted above gives the impression that the Egyptians were facing a great and strong military presence.  However, some scholars believe that the battles described at Medinet Habu were not one coherent event, but were actually small skirmishes between the Sea Peoples and the Egyptians at different intervals that were conflated in Ramesses' account into two grandiose battles.  Barbara Cifola (1988: 275-306) concluded that, due to the vague manner in which the northern enemies were described, they could not possibly represent one force, and were probably never joined into a clearly defined confederation (see also O’conner 2000: 94).
    The Medinet Habu inscriptions are also significant for their artistic depictions of the Sea Peoples. These provide valuable information about the appearance and accoutrements of the various groups, and can lend clues towards deciphering their ethnic backgrounds (Redford 1992: 251).
    From the textual evidence on the temple walls, it appears that the Peleset and the Tjeker made up the majority of the Sea Peoples involved in the year 8 invasion.  In the artistic depictions, both types are depicted wearing a fillet, from which protrudes a floppy plume and a protective piece down the nape of the neck.  Their armament included long swords, spears and circular shields, and they are occasionally shown wearing body armor.  Other groups, such as the Shekelesh and Teresh, are shown wearing cloth headdresses and a medallion upon their breasts.  The weaponry that they carried consisted of two spears and a simple round shield.  The Shardana soldiers are most obviously armored in the artistic depictions, due to the thick horned helmets that adorn their heads (Redford 1992: 252).
    The land battle and sea battle scenes provide a wealth of information on the military styles of the Sea Peoples.  The reliefs depicting the land battle show Egyptian troops, chariots and auxiliaries fighting the enemy, who also used chariots, very similar in design to Egyptian chariots.  Although the chariots used by the Sea Peoples are very similar to those used by the Egyptians, both being pulled by two horses and using wheels with six spokes, the Sea Peoples had three soldiers per chariot, whereas the Egyptians only had one, or occasionally two.
    The land battle scenes also give the observer some sense of the Sea Peoples’ military organization. According to the artistic representations, the Philistine warriors were each armed with a pair of long spears, and their infantry was divided into small groups consisting of four men each.  Three of those men carried long, straight swords and spears, while the fourth man only carried a sword. The relief depicting the land battle is a massive jumble of figures and very chaotic in appearance, but this was probably a stylistic convention employed by the Egyptians to convey a sense of chaos. Other evidence suggests that the Sea Peoples had a high level of organization and military strategy (O’Conner 2000: 95).
    A striking feature of the land battle scene is the imagery of ox-pulled carts carrying women and children in the midst of a battle. These carts seem to represent a people on the move (Sandars 1985: 120).
    The other famous relief at Medinet Habu regarding the Sea Peoples is of the sea battle.  This scene is also shown in a disorganized mass, but as was mentioned earlier, was meant to represent chaos, again contradicting the Egyptians’ descriptions of the military success and organization of the Sea Peoples.  The sea battle scene is valuable for its depictions of the Sea Peoples' ships and their armaments.  The Egyptians and the Sea Peoples both used sails as their main means of naval locomotion. However, interestingly, the Sea Peoples' ships appear to have no oars, which could indicate new navigation techniques (Dothan 1982: 7).  Another interesting feature of the Sea Peoples' ships is that all the prows are carved in the shape of bird heads, which has caused many scholars to speculate an Aegean origin for these groups. Wachsmann (2000) speculates that the sea battle relief shows the battle in progression, from beginning to end.
    Medinet Habu still remains the most important source for understanding the Sea Peoples, their possible origins, and their impact on the Mediterranean world.  To this day, no other source has been discovered that provides as detailed an account of these groups, and this mortuary temple still provides the only absolute date for the Sea Peoples.

Proceed to excerpts from the Medinet Habu Texts.

Primary Source Bibliography:

Medinet Habu Inscriptions, reign of Ramesses III. Pp. 262-263 in:

Pritchard, J.
    1969     Ancient Near Eastern Texts. New Jersey: Princeton Univeristy Press.

Secondary Sources:

Cifola, B.
    1988     Rameses III and the Sea Peoples: A Structural Analysis of the Medinet Habu Inscriptions.
              Orientalia 57 (3): 275-306.

Dothan, T.
    1982     Philistines and Their Material Culture.  London

O’Conner, D.
    2000     The Sea Peoples and the Egyptian Sources, pp. 85-102, in E. Oren (ed.) The
                 Sea Peoples and Their World: A Reassessment. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Museum Press.

Redford, D.B.
    1992     Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times. New Jersey: Princeton University Press.

Sandars, N.K.

    1985     The Sea Peoples Warriors of the Ancient Mediterranean. London.

Wachsmann, S.
    2000     To the Sea of the Philistines. pp. 103-143, in E. Oren (ed.) The Sea Peoples
                 and Their World: A Reassessment. Philadelphia:University of Pennsylvania Museum Press.
 
 
 

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Helios
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http://www.courses.psu.edu/cams/cams400w_aek11/mhabtext.html

Texts from the Medinet Habu Temple with Reference to the Sea Peoples


    The following texts are adapted from the translation by James Henry Breasted (2001). Breasted's original translation of the Medinet Habu texts, with commentary, can be found on pp. 3-85 in Breasted, J. H. 2001/1906. Ancient Records of Egypt vol. 4. Chicago: University of Illinois Press. 
 

Excerpt from Ramesses III's speech about the war against the Sea Peoples, year 8 (Breasted 2001: 37-39: sections 64-66): 


    The countries -- --, the [Northerners] in their isles were disturbed, taken away in the [fray] -- at one time. Not one stood before their hands, from Kheta, Kode, Carchemish, Arvad, Alashia, they were wasted. {The}y {[set up]} a camp in one place in Amor. They desolated his people and his land like that which is not. They came with fire prepared before them, forward to Egypt. Their main support was Peleset, Tjekker, Shekelesh, Denyen, and Weshesh. (These) lands were united, and they laid their hands upon the land as far as the Circle of the Earth. Their hearts were confident, full of their plans.
    Now, it happened through this god, the lord of gods, that I was prepared and armed to [trap] them like wild fowl. He furnished my strength and caused my plans to prosper. I went forth, directing these marvelous things. I equipped my frontier in Zahi, prepared before them. The chiefs, the captains of infantry, the nobles, I caused to equip the river-mouths [1], like a strong wall, with warships, galleys, and barges, [--]. They were manned [completely] from bow to stern with valiant warriors bearing their arms, soldiers of all the choicest of Egypt, being like lions roaring upon the mountain-tops. The charioteers were warriors [-- --], and all good officers, ready of hand. Their horses were quivering in their every limb, ready to crush the countries under their feet. I was the valiant Montu, stationed before them, that they might behold the hand-to-hand fighting of my arms. I, king Ramses III, was made a far-striding hero, conscious of his might, valiant to lead his army in the day of battle.
    Those who reached my boundary, their seed is not; their heart and their soul are finished forever and ever. As for those who had assembled before them on the sea, the full flame was in their front, before the river-mouths, and a wall of metal upon the shore surrounded them. They were dragged, overturned, and laid low upon the beach; slain and made heaps from stern to bow of their galleys, while all their things were cast upon the water. (Thus) I turned back the waters to remember Egypt; when they mention my name in their land, may it consume them, while I sit upon the throne of Harakhte, and the serpent-diadem is fixed upon my head, like Re. I permit not the countries to see the boundaries of Egypt to [--] [among] them. As for the Nine Bows, I have taken away their land and their boundaries; they are added to mine. Their chiefs and their people (come) to me with praise. I carried out the plans of the All-Lord, the august, divine father, lord of the gods.

Texts found with the year 8 relief scenes of the Sea Peoples war (Breasted 2001: 41-49: sections 70-82):


    1. A scene depicting Ramesses overseeing the distribution of weapons to the soldiers:

    Text behind the king: All the gods are the protection of his limbs, to give to him might against every country.

    Text before the king: -------- king; he saith -- -- to the princes, every leader of the infantry and chariotry who are before his majesty: "Bring out the weapons --------. Let the archers march to destroy the enemies, who know not Egypt, with might."

    Text over the officials: Utterance of the princes, companions, and leaders of the infantry and chariotry: "Thou art the king who shinest upon Egypt. When {thou} ristest, the Two Lands live. Great is thy might in the midst of the Nine Bows. Thy roaring is as far as the circuit of the sun. The shadow of thy sword is over thy army. They march, filled with thy might. Thy heart is stout, (for) thy excellent plans are established. Amon-Re appears, leading the way. He lays low for thee every land beneath thy feet; {thy} heart is glad -- forever. [Thou art] the protection which comes forth without delay. The heart of the Temeh is {dis}turbed, the Peleset are hung up, [--] in their towns, by the might of thy father, Amon, who has decreed to thee --------."

    Text over officers by the weapons: -------- {Give} the weapons to the infantry, the chariotry and the archers --------.

    Text over officers distributing weapons: Take ye the {weapon}s of {King} Ramses III.

    Text over soldiers receiving weapons: The infantry and chariotry who are receiving {weapons}.

    2. A scene depicting Ramesses setting out in a chariot for Zahi, accompanied by both Egyptian and Shardana infantry:

    Text over the horses: Great first span of his majesty (named): "Amon-He-Giveth-the-Sword."
 
    Text behind the king and over the Shardana: His majesty marches out in victorious might, to destroy the rebellious countries. His majesty {marches out} for Zahi, like the form of Montu, to crush every country that has transgressed his boundary. His infantry are like bulls, ready for battle upon the field. {His} horses are like hawks in the midst of his fowl before him. The Nine Bows are under (his) power. Amon, his august father, is for him a shield, King -- --, Lord of the Two Lands, Ramses III.
 
    3. A scene depicting Ramesses charging the Sea Peoples with a drawn bow in his chariot with Egyptian and Shardana troops (the land battle relief):

    Text over the battle: -------- {at} the sight of him, as when Set is enraged, overthrowing the enemy before the celestial barque, trampling the lands and countries prostrate, crushed [--] before his horses. His heat consumes {them} like fire, desolating their gardens -- --.

    Text over the kings horses: Great first span of his majesty (named): "Beloved-of-Amon."
 
    4. A scene depicting the naval battle between the Egyptians and the Sea Peoples, with the king in his chariot on the shore:
 
    Text by the king: The Good God, Montu over Egypt, great in might, like Baal in the countries, mighty in strength, far-reaching in courage (lit., heart), strong-horned, terrible in his might, a -- wall, covering Egypt, so that every one coming shall not see it, King Ramses III.

    Text over the chariot: Lo, the northern countries, which are in their isles, are restless in their limbs; they infest the ways of the river-mouths. Their nostrils and their hearts cease breathing breath, when his majesty goes forth like a storm-wind against them, fighting upon the strand like a warrior. His puissance and the terror of him penetrate into their limbs. Capsized and perishing in their places, their hearts are taken, their souls fly away, and their weapons are cast out upon the sea. His arrows pierce whomsoever he will among them, and he who is hit falls into the water. His majesty is like an enraged lion, tearing him that confronts him with his hands (sic), fighting at close quarters on his right, valiant on his left, like Set; destroying the foe, like Amon-Re. He has laid low the lands, he has crushed every land beneath his feet, the king of Upper and Lower Egypt, the Lord of the Two Lands, Usermare-Meriamon.

    5. A scene depicting Ramesses, along with soldiers and court officials, overseeing the counting of Sea People captives and hands from slain enemies before a palace:

    Text by the king: Utterance of his majesty to the king's-children, the princes, the king's butlers, and the charioteers: "Behold ye, the great might of my father, Amon-Re. The countries which came from their isles in the midst of the sea, they advanced to Egypt, their hearts relying upon their arms. The net was made ready for them, to ensnare them. Entering stealthily into the river-mouth, they fell into it. Caught in their place, they were dispatched, and their bodies stripped. I showed you my might which was in that which my majesty wrought while I was alone. My arrow struck (lit., seized), and none escaped my arms nor my hand. I flourished like a hawk among the fowl; my talons descended upon their heads. Amon-Re was upon my right and upon my left, his might and his power were in my limbs, a tumult for you; commanding for me that my counsels and my designs should come to pass. Amon-Re established the -- of my enemies, giving to me every land in my grasp."

    Text over the officials: Utterance of the king's-children, the princes, and the companions; they reply to the Good God: "Thou art Re, shining like him. Thy might crushes the Nine Bows, every land trembles at thy name, thy fear is before them every day. Egypt rejoices in the strong-armed, the son of Amon, who is upon the throne, King Ramses III, given life, like Re."

    Text over the palace: Migdol of Ramses, Ruler of Heliopolis.

    Text over the king's horses: Great first span of his majesty (named): "Strong-is-Amon."

    Text over the grooms: Live the Good God, achieving with his arms, making every country into something that exists not, strong-armed, mighty, skilful of hand, King Ramses III.

    Text over the prisoners: Said the vanquished chieftains of Tjekker: "-------- like Baal -------- give to us {the breath that thou givest] --------."

    6. A scene in which the king leads captive Tjekker and Libyans before Amon, Mut, and Khonsu:

    Text over Amon: Utterance of Amon-Re, lord of heaven, ruler of gods: "Come thou with joy, slay thou the Nine Bows, lay low every opponent. Thou hast cast down the hearts of the Asiatics, thou takest breath from their nostrils, -- -- -- by my designs."

    Text before the king: Utterance of Ramses III before his father, Amon-Re, king of gods: "I went forth, that I might take captive the Nine Bows and slay all lands. Not a land stood fast before me, . . . . . . . . and my hands took captives in the van of every country, by the decrees which came forth from thy mouth, . . . . . . that I might overthrow my every opponent. The lands behold me with trembling, (for) I am like Montu, -- -- -- him who relies upon thy designs, O protector, lord of might --------."

    Text over the Tjekker: Said the fallen, the great ones of Tjekker, who were in the grasp of his majesty, while praising this Good God, Lord of the Two Lands, Usermare-Meriamon: "Great is thy strength, victorious king, great Sun of Egypt. Greater is thy might than a mountain of gritstone, and thy terror is like Set. Give to us breath, that we may breathe it, the life that is in thy grasp, forever."

    Text over the Libyans: Said the fallen of Libya, who were in the grasp of his majesty: "Breath, breath! O victorious king, Horus, great in kingship."

    7. A scene of Amon, with Mut, presenting a sword to Ramesses, who leads three lines of captives:

    Text before Amon: Utterance of Amon-Re, lord of heaven: "Come thou in peace! Thou hast taken captive thine adversary, and slain the invader of thy border. My strength was with thee, overthrowing for thee the lands. Thou cuttest off the heads of the Asiatics. I have given to thee thy great might, I overthrow for thee every land, when they see thy majesty in strength like my son, Baal in his wrath."

    Text before the king: Utterance of king Ramses III to his father, Amon-Re, ruler of the gods: "Great is thy might, O lord of gods. The things which issue from thy mouth, they come to pass without fail. . . . . . Thy strength is behind as a shield, that I may slay the lands and countries that invade my border. Thou puttest great terror of me in the hearts of their chiefs; the fear and dread of me before them; that I may carry off their warriors, bound in my grasp, to lead them to thy ka, O my august father, -- -- -- -- --. Come, to [take] them, being: Peleset, Denyen, Shekelesh. Thy strength it was which was before me, overthrowing their seed, -- thy might, O lord of gods. He who relies upon him whom thou hast entrusted with the kingship, and everyone who walks in thy way are in peace. Thou art the lord, strong-armed for him who leans his back upon thee, a Bull with two horns, ready, conscious of his strength. Thou art my august father, who createdst my beauty, that though mightest look upon me, and choose me to be lord of the Nine Bows. Let thy hand be with me, to slay him that invades me, and ward off every enemy that is in my limbs."

    Text over the captives: Utterance of the leaders of every country, who are in the grasp of his majesty: "Great is thy might, victorious king, great sun of Egypt. Greater is thy strength than a mountain of gritstone; thy might is like Baal. Give to us the breath that we breathe; the life which is in thy hands."
 
    Text over the middle line of captives: Utterance of the vanquished of Denyen: "Breath! Breath! O good ruler, great in might {like} Montu, residing in Thebes."

    Text over the lower line of captives: Utterance of the vanquished Peleset: "Give to us the breath for our nostrils, O king, son of Amon."
 

1. Here Breasted (2001: 38) gives the translation "harbor-mouths," since he takes the view that the wars with the Sea Peoples took place in Syria rather than in the Egyptian Delta. He notes, however, that the Egyptian phrase r'-kh'wt is used in the year 5 text to refer to the "river-mouths" (38, note h). Throughout this adaptation, "river-mouths" will be used whereBreasted uses "harbor-mouths."

Bibliography:

Breasted, J. H.
    2001/1906.     Ancient Records of Egypt vol. 4. Chicago: University of Illinois Press. 

Return to the Medinet Habu Essay.

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Ulf Richter
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posted 07-22-2004 01:06     Click Here to See the Profile for Ulf Richter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
rockessence, Helios,

In a former thread I have already written something about the sea peoples:

>Georgeos has shown in three contributions in his homepage, that the weapons used by the “Sea Peoples” looked very much like the weapons of the Tartessians in Southern Spain. Tartessos must have existed before and about 1200 BC, so there could be a coincidence in time.

I have read similar observations in the books of the German archaeologist, linguist and pastor Juergen Spanuth. During a visit in Medinet Habu and reading the translations of the written texts on the temple walls he found amazing coincidences between these texts and Plato´s Atlantis-story. The Libyans, according to Plato living under the rule of the Atlantean kings, were also allies of the invading Sea Peoples. The Sea Peoples came from a country, which was swallowed by the sea, so that they were forced to seek a new home.
Spanuth found, that the pictures on the Medinet Habu temple showed a type of swords in the hands of the Sea People warriors, which were found very frequently in the graves in Northern Europe of this time. The helmets with horns on both sides resemble the helmets of Danish warriors of the Bronze Age. So he deduced that the original home of the “Sea Peoples” were the coasts of the North Sea in the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark, where at the end of the Bronze Age large floods destroyed wide coastal areas forever. In 1953 he published his first book: “Atlantis deciphered”, and up to 1985 followed many other books on this topic, showing with a lot of good arguments that the Philistines as well as the Phoenicians in Palestine and the Dorian immigrants in Greece are descendants of these Sea Peoples from North Europe. The Sea People storm into the Mediterranean Region should be a similar phenomenon as the historically well known migration of Germanic peoples in Europe 1600 years later, when about 400 AD the Visigotes conquered Spain and the Vandals came up to North Africa.

Many years I was fascinated by this theory and was seeking evidence for proving it. But with more detailed study of the texts of Plato, I began to doubt more and more that the “Sea Peoples War” could be the “Atlantean War”. The first argument against it was the time period of this war: only about 630 years before Solon visited Sais. It is absolutely uncredible that Solon, one of the wisest men in Greece, could have had never heard about this war when Athens was so fundamentally involved in it. He knew very well the story of the war against Troy, which must have taken place in the same time period, shortly before or after the Sea Peoples War.

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rockessence
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posted 07-22-2004 01:08     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
dhill,

Watching public TV tonight with the program about how the Chinese fleet of the Ming Dynasty may have come all the way up the west coast of Africa to the Cape Verdes and then across to the Caribbean...

Then they announced a program on SPARTA coming Ithink on Aug. 12...

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rockessence
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posted 07-22-2004 01:38     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ulf,
Thanks for the words and ideas from Juergen Spanuth. The Bock saga tells of migrations to the whole planet PRECEDING Ice-time, then separation from the ten tropical branches DURING Ice-time, then migrations again, beginning about 9000 BP. Later, after the Achaean period, as described in HOMER IN THE BALTIC,(Troyan and Odyssey events) at close of the "climatic optimum" migrations down the river-ways to Asia Minor and by ship into the "middle-sea".

There has been discussion about the close of the Mycenaean times and the "depression" of Greece. It was a long period in which the myths and gods and poetry were remembered, but the facts of migration were lost.

The whole and complete story of Mediterranean civilization is full of holes, as illustrated by the completely faulty geography evidenced in Homer's work, when one attempts to reconcile it to the Mediterranean geography.

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Helios
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posted 07-22-2004 02:04     Click Here to See the Profile for Helios     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ulf,

quote:

"The Sea Peoples came from a country, which was swallowed by the sea, so that they were forced to seek a new home."

I have heard this before myself, have been looking, yet haven't as of yet found the source. Do you know which text it comes from? I agree with you that the account was perhaps too recent for it to have vanished from all Greek memory. From what I have seen thus far, those who ascribe the Sea People for being responsible for a Greek dark age at this time are perhaps looking for easy answers when perhaps there are none.

Rockessence,

I admire your devotion to the northern/Baltic connection. Any thoughts on Hyperborea:


Hyperborea
In Greek mythology, according to tradition, the Hyperboreans were a mythical people who lived to the far north of Greece. Their land, called Hyperborea ("beyond the Boreas (north wind)"), was perfect, with the sun shining twenty-four hours a day. Apollo spent his winter amongst them. Theseus and Perseus also visited the Hyperboreans.

According to Herodotus (4.13), they live beyond the Arimaspians and were visited by Aristeas. He also mentions a Homeric poem (now lost) which deals with them.

Large quantities of gold were here, guarded by the griffins.

Abaris, Ilithyia are Hyperboreans.

See also Thule (myth).

The cycle of Conan the Barbarian by Robert E. Howard is supposed to happen in the similarly named "Hyborian era".
http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/en/wikipedia/h/hy/hyperborea.html

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Jonas Bergman
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posted 07-22-2004 05:31     Click Here to See the Profile for Jonas Bergman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Quote Ulf: It is absolutely uncredible that Solon, one of the wisest men in Greece, could have had never heard about this war when Athens was so fundamentally involved in it. He knew very well the story of the war against Troy, which must have taken place in the same time period, shortly before or after the Sea Peoples War

They didn't remember it because
the death of actors, like the Egyptian priest said.

They won the Troyan war, and rumours about it spread everywhere and it became a known legend.

Greek went into a Dark Age shortly after the Atlantean war. Half the Greek population disappeared. Everything collapsed.

This is a good indication that the Atlantean war took place after the Troyan war.

Quote from collapse of the Bronze Age by Manuel Robbins
And great epic poems fall silent concerning anything past a generation or two after the Trojan War.

Regards,

Jonas Bergman

[This message has been edited by Jonas Bergman (edited 07-22-2004).]

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Jonas Bergman
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posted 07-22-2004 05:38     Click Here to See the Profile for Jonas Bergman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Quote from Timaeus translated by Benjamin Jowett
in the next place, you do not know that there formerly dwelt in your land the fairest and noblest race of men which ever lived, and that you and your whole city are descended from a small seed or remnant of them which survived. And this was unknown to you, because, for many generations, the survivors of that destruction died, leaving no written word. For there was a time, Solon, before the great deluge of all, when the city which now is Athens was first in war and in every way the best governed of all cities, is said to have performed the noblest deeds and to have had the fairest constitution of any of which tradition tells, under the face of heaven.

Quote from Collapse of the Bronze Age by Manuel Robbins
In Greece, Linear B records were no longer kept after the disasters that occured toward the end of 1190 B.C, and this seem to signal the end of the palace-centered management of the economy, it is safe to say that the palace no longer ruled.

Greek began to sink irreversibly into a profound depression that lasted for centuries. Nothing is known of Greece in the long-lasting dark period that followed from any contemporary record, and the land was so impoverished, so lacking in material possessions, that archaeologists have found little which would illuminate those times.
There was no writing, even in the alphabetic script which came to Greece later.

All aspects of high culture were gone. It is a question whether what remained can still be considered civilization, so severe seems the regression.

Plato: for many generations, the survivors of that destruction died, leaving no written word

Quote from Collapse of the Bronze Age by Manuel Robbins
It is primarily the evidence of destruction in the urban centers of Bronze
Age Greece which has given shape to the barbarian invasion theory, and which
has influenced other theories as well.

Myceane: In South House also, walls collapsed. In the Cult Center, walls were damaged. The House of Idols burned down. Following this, Mycenae continued to be occupied into IIIC but with little evidence of rebuilding. This destruction in Mycenae is now attributed to another earthquake.

Tiryns: Twenty miles south of Mycenae, the citadel of Tiryns severely damaged in a great fire, at about the time of the destruction in the Mycenae citadel it is thought. Evidence of ground shift and the remains of a woman trapped under the remains of fallen walls point towards earthquake.

Midea: A few miles east of Tiryns, Midea was severely damaged at the end of IIIB Late, an event again attributed to earthquake.

Thebes: At Thebes there is some evidence of a great fire and destruction in IIIB Late.

Iolkos: At Iolkos, the palace was burned, possibly in IIIC.

Orchomenos: Near Orchomenos, on a high point in Lake Copais, was the fortress of Gla. Gla was part of the defenses of Orchomenos. Signs of fire have been found there, associated with late IIIB or possibly IIIC pottery.

Pylos: The palace of Pylos and its associated buildings were consumed in a terrible fire, never again to be occupied. This happaned about the same time of the destruction in Mycenae.

The Countryside: [i] In The Late Bronze Age, nearly every fertile valley of Greece contained clusters of towns and villages. From the pottery, something can be learned of the period in which the town or village thrived. Largely by these means, close to 500 settlement sites in mainland Greece have been found dating to IIIB period. Pottery evidence from these sites shows something very remarkable. Almost half of the sites do not continue into IIIC. A major disaster occured in the countryside.

Overall removal or disappearance: close to half the population, hundreds of thousands of people

Palmer believed that he had identified in the Pylos tablets records of defensive preparations made in anticipation of an attack, the attack in which Pylos was destroyed. Together, they speak of a situation of high tension and anxiety, a situation of high military alert. These dispositions appear to be directed to an attack expected from the sea, from the south.

Not all the centers or cities experienced
destruction. Athens survived, and seemed to have remembered that survival in later legends, yet even in Athens there is evidence that the city made preparations against the threat of a dangerous assault.

Archaeologists have found evidence that the walls were strengthened and a defensive
bastion added in order to better protect the main gate. At close to the same time,
within the citadel, a shaft was driven down through 120 feet of rock in order
to reach water. A wooden stairway was fitted along the inside of this shaft.

Earlier, water was obtained from a well outside the wall. However, to be able to withstand a long siege, a source of water accessible from within the walls was indespensable. Such preparations appear to show a concern of a possible attack, the need to withstand a long siege. There is no evidence of destruction, no evidence
of an attack on the citadel, and this is entirely in accord with the belief of later Athenians that Athens was never conquered, never abandoned.

Mycenaeans migrated out of the mainland in increasing numbers, many heading for the islands to the south and the east. And great epic poems fall silent concerning anything past a generation or two after the Trojan War. << As The Egyptian priest told Solon: the Greeks lost their writing and didn't remember their distant past, while the Egyptians preserved all the details in their temples.

Plato: Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided with letters and the other requisites of civilized life, after the usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a pestilence, comes pouring down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters and education; and so you have to begin all over again like children, and know nothing of what happened in ancient times,

Plato: This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods;

Sounds very much like the collapse of Bronze Age Greek. Athens survived the attacks of the invaders and a lot of earthquakes occured in close relation to this, and the whole of Greek went into a Dark Age.

Regards,

Jonas Bergman

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Absonite
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posted 07-22-2004 08:05     Click Here to See the Profile for Absonite     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
5. THE ANDITE CONQUEST OF NORTHERN EUROPE


The tribes of northern Europe were being continuously reinforced and upstepped by the steady stream of migrants from Mesopotamia through the Turkestan-south Russian regions, and when the last waves of Andite cavalry swept over Europe, there were already more men with Andite inheritance in that region than were to be found in all the rest of the world.

For three thousand years the military headquarters of the northern Andites was in Denmark. From this central point there went forth the successive waves of conquest, which grew decreasingly Andite and increasingly white as the passing centuries witnessed the final blending of the Mesopotamian conquerors with the conquered peoples.

While the blue man had been absorbed in the north and eventually succumbed to the white cavalry raiders who penetrated the south, the advancing tribes of the mixed white race met with stubborn and protracted resistance from the Cro-Magnons, but superior intelligence and ever-augmenting biologic reserves enabled them to wipe the older race out of existence.

The decisive struggles between the white man and the blue man were fought out in the valley of the Somme. Here, the flower of the blue race bitterly contested the southward-moving Andites, and for over five hundred years these Cro-Magnoids successfully defended their territories before succumbing to the superior military strategy of the white invaders. Thor, the victorious commander of the armies of the north in the final battle of the Somme, became the hero of the northern white tribes and later on was revered as a god by some of them.

The strongholds of the blue man which persisted longest were in southern France, but the last great military resistance was overcome along the Somme. The later conquest progressed by commercial penetration, population pressure along the rivers, and by continued intermarriage with the superiors, coupled with the ruthless extermination of the inferiors.

When the tribal council of the Andite elders had adjudged an inferior captive to be unfit, he was, by elaborate ceremony, committed to the shaman priests, who escorted him to the river and administered the rites of initiation to the "happy hunting grounds"--lethal submergence. In this way the white invaders of Europe exterminated all peoples encountered who were not quickly absorbed into their own ranks, and thus did the blue man come to an end--and quickly.

The Cro-Magnoid blue man constituted the biologic foundation for the modern European races, but they have survived only as absorbed by the later and virile conquerors of their homelands. The blue strain contributed many sturdy traits and much physical vigor to the white races of Europe, but the humor and imagination of the blended European peoples were derived from the Andites. This Andite-blue union, resulting in the northern white races, produced an immediate lapse of Andite civilization, a retardation of a transient nature. Eventually, the latent superiority of these northern barbarians manifested itself and culminated in present-day European civilization.

By 5000 B.C. the evolving white races were dominant throughout all of northern Europe, including northern Germany, northern France, and the British Isles. Central Europe was for some time controlled by the blue man and the round-headed Andonites. The latter were mainly situated in the Danube valley and were never entirely displaced by the Andites.

6. THE ANDITES ALONG THE NILE


From the times of the terminal Andite migrations, culture declined in the Euphrates valley, and the immediate center of civilization shifted to the valley of the Nile. Egypt became the successor of Mesopotamia as the headquarters of the most advanced group on earth.

The Nile valley began to suffer from floods shortly before the Mesopotamian valleys but fared much better. This early setback was more than compensated by the continuing stream of Andite immigrants, so that the culture of Egypt, though really derived from the Euphrates region, seemed to forge ahead. But in 5000 B.C., during the flood period in Mesopotamia, there were seven distinct groups of human beings in Egypt; all of them, save one, came from Mesopotamia.

When the last exodus from the Euphrates valley occurred, Egypt was fortunate in gaining so many of the most skillful artists and artisans. These Andite artisans found themselves quite at home in that they were thoroughly familiar with river life, its floods, irrigations, and dry seasons. They enjoyed the sheltered position of the Nile valley; they were there much less subject to hostile raids and attacks than along the Euphrates. And they added greatly to the metalworking skill of the Egyptians. Here they worked iron ores coming from Mount Sinai instead of from the Black Sea regions.

The Egyptians very early assembled their municipal deities into an elaborate national system of gods. They developed an extensive theology and had an equally extensive but burdensome priesthood. Several different leaders sought to revive the remnants of the early religious teachings of the Sethites, but these endeavors were short-lived. The Andites built the first stone structures in Egypt. The first and most exquisite of the stone pyramids was erected by Imhotep, an Andite architectural genius, while serving as prime minister. Previous buildings had been constructed of brick, and while many stone structures had been erected in different parts of the world, this was the first in Egypt. But the art of building steadily declined from the days of this great architect.

This brilliant epoch of culture was cut short by internal warfare along the Nile, and the country was soon overrun, as Mesopotamia had been, by the inferior tribes from inhospitable Arabia and by the blacks from the south. As a result, social progress steadily declined for more than five hundred years.


7. ANDITES OF THE MEDITERRANEAN ISLES


During the decline of culture in Mesopotamia there persisted for some time a superior civilization on the islands of the eastern Mediterranean.

About 12,000 B.C. a brilliant tribe of Andites migrated to Crete. This was the only island settled so early by such a superior group, and it was almost two thousand years before the descendants of these mariners spread to the neighboring isles. This group were the narrow-headed, smaller-statured Andites who had intermarried with the Vanite division of the northern Nodites. They were all under six feet in height and had been literally driven off the mainland by their larger and inferior fellows. These emigrants to Crete were highly skilled in textiles, metals, pottery, plumbing, and the use of stone for building material. They engaged in writing and carried on as herders and agriculturists.

Almost two thousand years after the settlement of Crete a group of the tall descendants of Adamson made their way over the northern islands to Greece, coming almost directly from their highland home north of Mesopotamia. These progenitors of the Greeks were led westward by Sato, a direct descendant of Adamson and Ratta.

The group which finally settled in Greece consisted of three hundred and seventy-five of the selected and superior people comprising the end of the second civilization of the Adamsonites. These later sons of Adamson carried the then most valuable strains of the emerging white races. They were of a high intellectual order and, physically regarded, the most beautiful of men since the days of the first Eden.

Presently Greece and the Aegean Islands region succeeded Mesopotamia and Egypt as the Occidental center of trade, art, and culture. But as it was in Egypt, so again practically all of the art and science of the Aegean world was derived from Mesopotamia except for the culture of the Adamsonite forerunners of the Greeks. All the art and genius of these latter people is a direct legacy of the posterity of Adamson, the first son of Adam and Eve, and his extraordinary second wife, a daughter descended in an unbroken line from the pure Nodite staff of Prince Caligastia. No wonder the Greeks had mythological traditions that they were directly descended from gods and superhuman beings.

The Aegean region passed through five distinct cultural stages, each less spiritual than the preceding, and erelong the last glorious era of art perished beneath the weight of the rapidly multiplying mediocre descendants of the Danubian slaves who had been imported by the later generations of Greeks.

It was during this age in Crete that the mother cult of the descendants of Cain attained its greatest vogue. This cult glorified Eve in the worship of the "great mother." Images of Eve were everywhere. Thousands of public shrines were erected throughout Crete and Asia Minor. And this mother cult persisted on down to the times of Christ, becoming later incorporated in the early Christian religion under the guise of the glorification and worship of Mary the earth mother of Jesus.

By about 6500 B.C. there had occurred a great decline in the spiritual heritage of the Andites. The descendants of Adam were widespreadly dispersed and had been virtually swallowed up in the older and more numerous human races. And this decadence of Andite civilization, together with the disappearance of
their religious standards, left the spiritually impoverished races of the world in a deplorable condition.

By 5000 B.C. the three purest strains of Adam's descendants were in Sumeria, northern Europe, and Greece. The whole of Mesopotamia was being slowly deteriorated by the stream of mixed and darker races which filtered in from Arabia. And the coming of these inferior peoples contributed further to the scattering abroad of the biologic and cultural residue of the Andites. From all over the fertile crescent the more adventurous peoples poured westward to the islands. These migrants cultivated both grain and vegetables, and they brought domesticated animals with them.

About 5000 B.C. a mighty host of progressive Mesopotamians moved out of the Euphrates valley and settled upon the island of Cyprus; this civilization was wiped out about two thousand years subsequently by the barbarian hordes from the north.

Another great colony settled on the Mediterranean near the later site of Carthage. And from north Africa large numbers of Andites entered Spain and later mingled in Switzerland with their brethren who had earlier come to Italy from the Aegean Islands.

When Egypt followed Mesopotamia in cultural decline, many of the more able and advanced families fled to Crete, thus greatly augmenting this already advanced civilization. And when the arrival of inferior groups from Egypt later threatened the civilization of Crete, the more cultured families moved on west to Greece.

The Greeks were not only great teachers and artists, they were also the world's greatest traders and colonizers. Before succumbing to the flood of inferiority which eventually engulfed their art and commerce, they succeeded in planting so many outposts of culture to the west that a great many of the advances in early Greek civilization persisted in the later peoples of southern Europe, and many of the mixed descendants of these Adamsonites became incorporated in the tribes of the adjacent mainlands.

http://mercy.urantia.org/papers/paper80.html

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rockessence
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Posts: 1000
From: WA USA
Registered: Feb 2004

posted 07-22-2004 11:47     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Helios,

RE:
"Hyperborea
In Greek mythology, according to tradition, the Hyperboreans were a mythical people who lived to the far north of Greece. Their land, called Hyperborea ("beyond the Boreas (north wind)"), was perfect, with the sun shining twenty-four hours a day. Apollo spent his winter amongst them. Theseus and Perseus also visited the Hyperboreans.

Large quantities of gold were here, guarded by the griffins"

They were only "mythical" because of the extreme antiquity of their associations with the Mediterranean area. The period described in "myth" was pre-glacial, when the earth was perpendicular to the sun and there was no winter! (Anywhere)

The Bock saga describes Pa-ra-dis-et, in the Rot (root) language, which comes down to us as "paradise"!

The 0 meridian originally ran from Hel (Helsinki) down through Delos, then Crete, then the Oasis of Siwa on the Egypt/Libya border, through so. Africa, across the southern ocean (Antarctica was not at the southern pole then) and on up to Hawaii, and on up to cross Alaska, and back to Uuden-maa (Odin/Eden) or Finland.

The gold of Finland is extremely pure, more so than almost anywhere else on the planet.


[This message has been edited by rockessence (edited 07-22-2004).]

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rockessence
Member

Posts: 1000
From: WA USA
Registered: Feb 2004

posted 07-22-2004 12:06     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jonas,

RE:
"Quote from Collapse of the Bronze Age by Manuel Robbins
And great epic poems fall silent concerning anything past a generation or two after the Trojan War."

I believe that the incident happening at Troy, happened before the Achaean migration to the Mediterranean, and actually took place at Toija, in southern Finland.

Quote HOMER IN THE BALTIC Felice Vinci:

""The real scene of the Iliad and the Odyssey can be identified not in the Mediterranean Sea, where it proves to be weakened by many incongruities, but in the north of Europe. The sagas that gave rise to the two poems came from the Baltic regions, where the Bronze Age flourished in the 2nd millennium B. C. and many Homeric places, such as Troy and Ithaca, can still be identified. The blond seafarers who founded the Mycenaean civilization in the 16th century B. C. brought these tales from Scandinavia to Greece after the decline of the "climatic optimum". Then they rebuilt their original world, where the Trojan War and many other mythological events had taken place, in the Mediterranean; through many generations the memory of the heroic age and the feats performed by their ancestors in their lost homeland was preserved, and handed down to the following ages. This key allows us to easily open many doors that have been shut tight until now, as well as to consider the age-old question of the Indo-European diaspora and the origin of the Greek civilization from a new perspective."

"Let us look for the region of Troy now. In the Iliad it is located along the Hellespont Sea, which is systematically described as being «wide» or even «boundless». We can, therefore, exclude the fact that it refers to the Strait of the Dardanelles, where the city found by Schliemann lies. The identification of this city with Homer's Troy still raises strong doubts: we only have to think of Finley's criticism in the World of Odysseus. It is also remarkable that Schliemann's site corresponds to the location of the Greek-Roman Troy; however, Strabo categorically denies that the latter is identifiable with the Homeric city (Geography 13, 1, 27). On the other hand, the Danish Medieval historian Saxo Grammaticus, in his Gesta Danorum, often mentions a population known as «Hellespontians» and a region called Hellespont, which, strangely enough, seems to be located in the east of the Baltic Sea. Could it be Homer's Hellespont? We can identify it with the Gulf of Finland, which is the geographic counterpart of the Dardanelles (as both of them lie northeast of their respective basins). Since Troy, as we can infer from a passage in the Iliad (XXI, 334-335), lay North-East of the sea (further reason to dispute Schliemann's location), then it seems reasonable, for the purpose of this research, to look at a region of southern Finland, where the Gulf of Finland joins the Baltic Sea. In this area, west of Helsinki, we find a number of name-places which astonishingly resemble those mentioned in the Iliad and, in particular, those given to the allies of the Trojans: Askainen (Ascanius), Karjaa (Caria), Nästi (Nastes, the chief of the Carians), Lyökki (Lycia), Tenala (Tenedos), Kiila (Cilla), Raisio (Rhesus), Kiikoinen (the Ciconians) etc. There is also a Padva, which reminds us of Italian Padua, which was founded, according to tradition, by the Trojan Antenor and lies in Venetia (the «Eneti» or «Veneti» were allies of the Trojans). What is more, the place-names Tanttala and Sipilä (the mythical King Tantalus, famous for his torment, was buried on Mount Sipylus) indicate that this matter is not only limited to Homeric geography, but seems to carry over to the whole world of Greek mythology.

What about Troy? Right in the middle of this area, halfway between Helsinki and Turku, we discover that King Priam's city has survived the Achaean sack and fire. Its characteristics correspond exactly to those Homer handed down to us: the hilly area which dominates the valley with its two rivers, the plain which slopes down towards the coast, and the highlands in the background. It has even maintained its own name almost unchanged throughout all this time. Today, Toija is a peaceful Finnish village, unaware of its glorious and tragic past."


Please read my thread HOMER IN THE BALTIC for a synopsis of the book.


[This message has been edited by rockessence (edited 07-22-2004).]

[This message has been edited by rockessence (edited 07-22-2004).]

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