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Author Topic:   900 or 9000 b.c..?
Andre
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Posts: 750
From: Zoetermeer, the Netherlands
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 07-08-2004 13:19     Click Here to See the Profile for Andre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Do you believe there is any evidence that the Ice Age ended quickly, as in terms of an asteroid hit

There you go. The end of the Younger Dryas (on the average 11,550 years ago) was rather spectacular when looking in several (almost all) proxies like ice cores, pollen cores, tree rings (dendrochronology) etc. The current interpretation is a temperature rise of more than 10 degrees within a decade. However there are numerous indications that this is not the case. My interpretation is massive clathrate destabilisation in the Arctic seas north of Scandinavia and Siberia. But why? My guess, dramatic tectonic actions. Why? A result of the RTPW.

A meteorite impact like the one that may have caused the Carolina bays doesn't make sense and yes Otto Muck and his eels is quite humurous. Amongst the reason why, because then meteorite impacts would also been causing the end of the previous ice ages, like the eemian around 140,000 years ago and previous stages around 220,000 ago, 350,000 years ago etc. Now these periods are not regular enough for a recurring astrononical event but too regular to account it on random meteorites. Besides I have not heard of any succes to tie craters to ice age endings.

The ice ages are much much more complex than we think. Remember that any explaination also needs to explain the Mammoths in high arctic Siberia during the coldest period of the ice ages.

Just try this as appetizer for all the complications:
http://home.wanadoo.nl/bijkerk/Laurentian%20ice%20sheet%20on%20greenland.htm

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Absonite
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posted 07-08-2004 14:18     Click Here to See the Profile for Absonite     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DHill,
try this, http://www.urantia.com/booksearch.html

and type in ice age and/or ice sheet for detailed reliable information available nowhere else.

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dhill757
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From: Madison
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posted 07-09-2004 00:28     Click Here to See the Profile for dhill757     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Absonite, thanks for the link , I am still studying the Urantia book. Like the Bock Saga, it probably has a lot of pertinence to what we are discussing here than people give it credit for. Mind if I ask, how did you happen to get so involved with it..? I can tell you're really passionate about it.

Andre,

I'm a little confused about your scientific method, course I'll admit that Ice Age theory is not my strongest suit. Can you explain to me how you can make judgments like that based on ice samples..? I'm not trying to be facetious, just think I need a better understanding of your methods before I see the whole logic behind it.

In Otto Muck's defense (who was also a physicist, engineer and inventor of the schnorkel and German U-boats but the way), if I remember correctly, he doesn't say a meteorite hit the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, but an asteroid. Meteorites hit the world all the time and do little damage, an asteroid is a lot bigger. An asteroid hit has long been theorized as what brought about the end of the dinosaurs. Not too many of them were suggested to have hit the earth in the last few thousamd years, that I know of anyway.

About the 'eel' point, I think that was a point that Muck brought up more in relation to the fact that there may have been more land in the Azores area than to do with any cosmic cataclysm.

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Absonite
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posted 07-09-2004 03:33     Click Here to See the Profile for Absonite     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
dhill,
i first ran across it as a kid and thought it was a cool sci-fi book. For years kept looking for another by the same author or a part 2 or something. Guess I just didn't have the brains at that time to realize what I had accidently found. The more science evolved the more everything fell into line with the UB. There are still 4 or 5 things in it that are giving some people problems, but I think they will all straighten out as our techniques of measurement become more advanced.
Anyway, if you can get your mind around it by that time you should try to be here.
http://urantiabook.org/IC05/IC05_planning_1.htm

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Andre
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From: Zoetermeer, the Netherlands
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posted 07-09-2004 04:52     Click Here to See the Profile for Andre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well dhill, since you brought up Otto Muck, I replied with eels because in my idea the eels are a perfect proof for the "plate tectonics" hypothesis of Afred Wegener at the same time it seem to refute Mucks Mid atlantic ridge idea for Atlantis.

If the eels were used to travel from the Saragossa sea to Europe, it would seem that this is the result of 100 million years of evolution. The eels started with that habit when the Atlantic ocean was still the Atlantic river and barely noticed that that river grew with some inch each year slowly to become the ocean. This would support Wegeners plate tectonics.

If you sink an island that was the previous destination of the eels, chances that the young hatched larvae are able to cover a thousand miles or so more, is rather remote. So it appears that Mucks favorite eels are debunking him and are supporting Wegener.

Muck also thought that the Carolina bays -perhaps the result of a gigantic water meteorite- had something to with the alleged destabilisation of the Atlantic sea floor:
http://www.georgehoward.net/cbays.htm

If so then the local damage must have been much bigger.

++++++

About stable isotopes and temperature, some links that may help explaining: http://www.ace.mmu.ac.uk/Resources/gcc/3-3-2-1.html http://geology.csupomona.edu/drjessey/class/GSC433/Isotopes.htm http://www.huxley.ic.ac.uk/Local/EarthSciUG/ESFirstYr/EarthMaterials/mrpalmer/EarthMaterials/Iso/module8/m8.html


I wrote this somewhere once:

(Refer to this graph (lower) of the alleged global temperature the last 400,000+ years.)
http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/graphics/large/2.jpg

quote:
What makes it that we put a temperature scale on the Y-axis of the lower graph? The simple assumption that isotopes are temperature. Okay some corrections account for local effects but the main idea is that the ratio of heavy and light atoms is mainly dependant on temperature. In this case here the temperature scale is an assumption based upon the ratio of normal hydrogen (H) and heavy hydrogen atoms (Deuterium - D), in the ice of the Vostok ice cores. The ratio is also indicated as “dD”. So most of the time you find this graph with “dD”on the Y-axis. At least that’s correct.

Now here the carbon dating comes in, since carbon dating is also playing with isotopes, but what a problems it encountered. So let me explain first and then compare it to palaeo thermometry.

Carbon dating was developed in the 1950, here is how it basically works. Just heavy radioactive 14C atoms that are produced in the air and that decay again with a half time of some 5700 years (normal –light- carbon is 12C). Live tissue has the same heavy 14C – 12C carbon ratio as the air, while dead tissue starts to loose the 14C, and the 14C – 12C ratio decreases. this can be used measuring it’s age.

In the early days, it was as simple as that. Just have a radioactivity geiger counter, count the ticks, assume that it is decaying 14C that you count. Do the math and there you are, the age of the thing. Well, in fact, the calculation brought anything but the correct age because numerous complications have been neglected. The large errors were mostly attributed to sample contamination but this is something that really doesn’t happen that often.

So what are the real problems exactly?
- Other radioactive noise
- Variation of the concentration of carbon dioxide in the air, depending on the activity of sources and sinks with it’s own fractionation characterises, producing or reducing carbon dioxide concentration depleted of heavy isotopes or even enriched with heavy isotopes.
- Variation of radiogenic production of heavy 14C. The more cosmic activity, the more 14C
- The fractionation of heavy atoms in the processes of building that particular tissue. Photo synthetic processes, predator processes, air breathing, or underwater etc. But these fractionation processes are equally dependant on temperature and relative humidity as the dD in Vostok ice cores.

These problems have been addressed in the recent past resulting in more or less adequate solutions.

radioactive noise: counting 14C nowadays is done with a mass spectrometer, not with radioactivity anymore, just like all the other isotope counting procedures, a tremendous improvement.

Variation of carbon dioxide and all the processes that change the 14C concentration in the air are now adjusted by a calibration table that has been build by comparing carbon age with annual layer counting, annual layers of tree rings (dendrochronology) ice cores layers and lake sedimentation layers (varves). Differences up to 2500 years are normal in the ice age period.

Variation due fractionation processes with all its variables are dealt with by also counting the stable moderate heavy 13C atoms. As the 13C-12C ratio tells something about the fractionation of heavier 14C atoms, we can adjust the assumption of the original 14C ratio, just by multiplying 13C fractionation differences by 2. The 13C ratio (d13C) in a specific time frame could be derived from the CO2 in the ice cores, but I don’t think that we are that far yet, so for the moment I think we still assume a constant d13C for the CO2 in the air.

Since carbon dating is a very important instrument for basic dating we have put a lot of effort in correcting for all the errors, we could think of. Finally, we have a system with a reasonable degree of accuracy and trustworthiness.

Isotope Paleo thermometry is still in the 1950’s of the carbon dating. Isotopes = temperature, it’s as simple as that. We assume a basic ratio of the source like standard sea water (SMOW) and we assume basic fractionation processes like evaporating and condensing. We are not triggered to look into more detail of these processes, since the ice cores seem to reflect exactly what we think we know about palaeo climates of the ice age (unaware of many circular reasonings). So obviously there seem to be no errors that would trigger us to investigate the problems of variation of isotope ratios of sources and variations and complications of fractionation processes. So why make it more complicated? Unfortunately Occams Razor does not work that way and we have miles to go before we sleep. The bottom graph is wrong, we do not see temperatures, we see isotopes as a result of many processes, nothing more, no climate.


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Essan
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posted 07-09-2004 06:06     Click Here to See the Profile for Essan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Helios: thanks for that list, very useful. I was just thinking of looking for something like it to help with some research of my own

Andre: as a kid Otto Muck's was my favourite book on Atlantis. Thanks for convincingly demolishing the one bit of his theory that still seemed to have something going for it (the migrating eels) I'd never even thought of that before.

One problem with the Mid Atlantic Atlantis theory is where the fauna and flora that - presumably - inhabited it came from. Whilst some seeds and insects might get blown across the Atlantic, the landmass would still have been virtually animal free unless it had always existed since the break up of Laurasia. If the landmass was simply as a result of lowered sea levels for a few 10s of thousands of years during the last ice age it certainly wouldnt have been covered with forests, nor would there been any animals there for hunting. It'd have been mostly rock with just basic plants and insects. So why would anyone want to live there, when there were so many other places on Earth teeming with food and wildlife they could go to instead?

btw this is also a problem with the Atlantis in Antarctica theory.

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Absonite
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posted 07-09-2004 09:38     Click Here to See the Profile for Absonite     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Andre,
I've enjoyed your comments on Plate Techtonics and Continental Drift.
Are you aware of the following?

The prophetic nature of The Urantia Book's account of continental drift and some of its consequences have now received approval in a book by professor of geology, M.A.S. McMenamin, entitled "The Garden of Ediacara," reported by Larry Mullins in the recent "Spiritual Fellowship Journal." The following quotes coming from McMenamin's book followed upon that author having his attention drawn to The Urantia Book's content:

Ê Ê"The anonymous members of the Urantia Corps hit on some remarkable scientific revelations in the mid-1930's. They embraced continental drift at a time when it was decidedly out of vogue in the scientific community. They recognized the presence of a global super-continent (Rodinia) and superocean (Mirovia), in existence on Earth before Pangea...The concept of a billion year old supercontinent (the currently accepted age for the formation of Rodinia) that subsequently split apart, forming gradually widening ocean basins in which early marine life flourished, is unquestionably present in the book.
Ê Ê"Orthodox scientific arguments for such a proposal did not appear until the late 1960's, and a pre-Pangea supercontinient was never described until Valentine and Moores made the attempt in 1970. The Urantia Corps not only had the age of formation of Rodinia approximately correct at 1 billion years, but they were the first to link breakup of Rodinia to the emergence of animals...One wonders how the Urantia Book authors arrived at the concept of a Proterozoic supercontinent and the link between the breakup of this supercontinent and the emergence of complex life in the ensuing rift oceans 30 years before most geologists accepted continental drift--and nearly four decades before any scientist had any inkling that Rodinia existed."Ê
.........
.....
Continental Drift 3--Secondary Effects

Ê Ê"There is a curious parallel history between the histories of black holes and continental drift. Evidence for both was already non-ignorable by 1916, but both ideas were stopped in their tracks for half a century by a resistance bordering on the irrationalÉbut resistance to both began to crumble around 1960." (Werner Israel, quoted in Thorne1)
Ê Ê"...disbelief (in continental drift) was so strong that it often bordered on indignation. One of the strongest opponents was the British geophysicist Sir Harold Jeffreys, who spent years attempting to demonstrate that continental drift is impossible because the strength of the mantle should be far greater than any conceivable driving forceÉ.It was in North America, however, that opposition to Wegener's ideas was vigorous to the point of excess and very nearly unanimousÉ.Wegener was attacked from virtually every possible vantage point, his paleontological evidence attributed to land bridges, the similarity of strata on both sides of the Atlantic called into question, the fit of Atlantic shores declared inaccurate, and his very competence doubted."2
Ê ÊIn the light of such opposition one must wonder what would have caused the authors of the Urantia Papers to base the whole of their report on the evolution of continents and life on this planet upon the truth of continental drift--unless they had access to some special source of knowledge.
Ê ÊMoreover they were not simply following Wegener's version of drift. Wegener began his story with a single continent that he called Pangea that commenced to break up in the order of 200 million years ago. The story presented in the Papers commenced with a single continent that commenced to break up 750 million years ago. Wegener's views prevailed until around 1970 when some geologists began to voice a different opinion which is reported in a book entitled "Genesis" published in 19823. In this, it was proposed that there may have been a pre-existing continent, a Pangea 1, roughly 600 million years ago that had broken up into four new continents by about 450 million years ago, at the end of the Ordovician age. Then, about 250 million years later, these continents were thought to have converged to form Pangea 2 which
quickly broke up again as proposed by Wegener. Variations on this theme have continued to appear and were pulled together in 1995 in a review article4 proposing the breakup of a pre-Cambrian supercontinent named Rodinia around 750 million years--exactly coincidental with the time given by the Urantia Papers.
Ê ÊThere are other features of the Urantia Papers' story of our planet that are quite remarkable. Remembering the fierce opposition against continental drift that existed during time of receipt and publication of the Papers, their authors nevertheless associated the collision of the continental land mass and the oceanic floor with the formation of "the whole vast north and south mountain range extending from Alaska down through Mexico to Cape Horn." (P. 689) The collision of tectonic plates and subduction of the oceanic plate is now accepted as a major component of the forces involved in mountain building in areas like the west coast of the Americas.
Ê ÊThe Papers also tell of features such as land bridges connecting Australia, and the Antarctic continent with South America and South Africa that would have allowed primitive placental (marsupial) animals that flourished 50 million years ago to move between these continents.
Ê ÊThe presence of marsupial fossils in Oligocene strata (about 35 to 40 million years old) in Australia and in America in the Cretaceous strata dating as far back as 65 million years ago, together with the recent discovery of marsupial fossils on Seymour Island in Antarctica provide remarkable evidence for statements (P.695) about the ancestors of Australia's kangaroos and the land bridges of 35 to 45 million years ago. Yet when the Papers were written in the 1930's, geologists or paleontologists who supported the notion of continental drift would have been labeled as mavericks. All of which raises the question of why the authors of the Urantia Papers would have written such material except they possessed knowledge unavailable on Urantia.
References

1. K.S. Thorne, (1994) Black Holes and Time Warps. (Picador, London)
2. Encyclopedia Britannica (2000)
3. J. Gribbin, Genesis, (1982)
4. W.D. Dalziel, Earth before Pangea, Scientific American 272 (1) 28. (1995)
5. L..J Mullins and M.J. Sprunger. (2000) A History of the Urantia Papers. (Penumbra Press, Boulder.)

http://www.urantiabook.org/archive/newsletters/innerface/vol11_3/page27.html

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dhill757
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posted 07-10-2004 00:20     Click Here to See the Profile for dhill757     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Essan,

Very inciteful input, you should come around more! Actually, the Otto Muck book is still one of my favorites on Atlantis. The point on Laurasia is a good one. He makes a point about continental drift there that any school kid could see, namely that South America and Africa fit neatly together, while North America and Europe could, conceivably be missing a piece...Atlantis..?

Either that or the raised Mid-Atlantic Ridge could have been Atlantis, to my view anyway. Depending on how many years the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, it may not have been the barren rock you so convincingly describe. Depending on how advanced the Atlanteans were, they might have well "imported" some of the animals Plato describes there from nearby Africa (although it would be hard getting an elephant on a boat).

Andre,

I don't think that I have ever heard Carbon 14 dating explained so articulately, thank you, I, too, enjoy what you bring to the discussion. As it happens, I never really thought that the eels were that strong a point of Otto Muck's.

Earlier you were looking for some more scientific material on the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. I found some material on one of the threads that may not be very scientific again, from one of the other threads. Bear in mind, it does come from an Atlantis website, so it may not be the most reliable, but I wonder if you'd like to look at it:
http://www.atlantissource.com/home/forgotten_article.htm

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Essan
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posted 07-10-2004 09:10     Click Here to See the Profile for Essan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Dhill Yes, sadly there's just not enough hours in the day, or I'd post here more often.

I dismiss the idea that the missing piece of the continental jigsaw is Atlantis, simply because continental landmases don't 'disappear'. They may be covered by shallow, continenatl seas, but not deep ocean. And there's no geological process (that I'm aware of) that fits in with a Continental mid Atlantic landmass. Remember - the mid Atlantic ridge is where the 2 continents are moving apart.

The best chance, then, for a mid Atlantic Atlantis is - IMO - a higher mid atlantic ridge coupled with lower sea levels. This is certainly possible. And I have considered the possiblity that lifestock, crops, tress etc could all have been brought there by the Atlanteans. But why? There were lots of other places they could have gone to live that would have been much easier to get to and where food and other materials were more plentiful.

That's basically the crux of my (current) argument against a mid Atlantic (and against an Antarctic) Atlantis: why would anyone have gone there in the first place? What could it have offered that Europe, Africa and the Americas didn't?

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Andre
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posted 07-10-2004 13:04     Click Here to See the Profile for Andre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Absonite, interesting stuff but I wonder who build that world vision and what was his substantiation.

Essan, No problem, you're welcome. Let me destroy the Atlantis theories even a bit more. I have glanced at Erick Wrights discovery of the homographs of the names of the kings of Atlantis and this reveals that the whole story is a very clever construction of Plato (or Solon) up to the finest details, to make a philosophical point about the difference between belief and truth. Something still extremely actual today. But the consequence is also that Atlantis is a mere tool of Plato to make that point. Consequently, IMO the quest was not about Atlantis, but about experiencing the difference between truth and belief. That quest has ended.

Dhill, interesting material and the references are retrievable. However that quote on that page was not complete: This loox like a copy of the original article:
http://horn.alein.de/flat-topped.jpg

And of course uplift and subsidence is quite normal for active volcanic regions. But a few hundred meters RTPW, some more ice still on the Laurentide ice sheet and some tectonic uplift could certainly have done the trick. I wonder why there are no more recent reports. The Ocean Drilling Program (ODP) has plowged about every square mile of the ocean bottom.

Edit:
Addition: that 12,000 carbon years of that limestone is of course measured with still the old problems of carbon dating actual. Nowadays it would require 2500 years correction after the calibration with dendrochronology and varves. So it's probably 14,500 years in reality.

[This message has been edited by Andre (edited 07-10-2004).]

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dhill757
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posted 07-11-2004 00:47     Click Here to See the Profile for dhill757     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Essan,

Continental land masses don't disappear, what if Atlantis were something a little smaller..? The Atlantic does have a habit of spitting out and devouring islands all the time, witness, "Surtsey" back in 1963, created by volcanic eruptions, off the coast of Iceland. As for what a continental land mass might look like at the bottom of the sea, how would we know what it looked like? To my knowledge, none have ever been discovered before. Depending on how long ago it sunk, it might no longer resemble a continent at all.

As for why would they stay there when they had Europe to also go to..? Well,both Indonesia and Australia were settled as early as 40,000 years ago, which not only proves that there may well have been sea-faring travel at such an early time, but also that they might well have been to the islands of the Atlantic as well. Why would they stay..? of course they would have been born there and it would have become their home.

Andre,

Re: Erick's new theory,well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

A lot of the evidence, both pro and con, seems to be in the eye of the beholder, and that is certainly true also about the recent theory. My own personal opinion is that belief in Atlantis is a lot like belief in God, either you believe in it or not. If you didn't really believe in it in the first place, it's probably not going to take a lot to convince you otherwise. Since that's already being covered in another thread, though, I'd appreciate it if we didn't also begin talking about it here.

Here is another article from the Philadelphia Inquirer, 03/15/04 you might be interested in, unedited. It isn't "proof" of Atlantis, but it does have some pretty vital facts in it about what we know about the oceans and makes me eager to hear of what becomes of their expedition:

Scientists to drill beneath oceans


By Robert S. Boyd

Inquirer Washington Bureau


WASHINGTON - In a research program getting under way
this summer, shipboard scientists will punch thousands of
holes in the ocean bottom and take samples from greater
depths than ever before. They will be investigating the
biology, chemistry and physics of "inner space," the vast
world hidden beneath the seas.

The Integrated Ocean Drilling Program, led by American and
Japanese scientists, begins in June with a 10-month
expedition to plumb the crust beneath the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans.

The layers of rock below the seafloor are an archive of global change, tens of millions of years old, that scientists say can
help them understand what's happening to our world today.

Researchers are especially interested in hordes of microbes thriving in a complex "plumbing system" of life-supporting fluids
coursing through cracks in the rocks thousands of feet below the ocean bottom. Some organisms may have medical or
commercial value.

"There's a whole ecology living down there," said Theodore Moore Jr., an oceanographer at the University of Michigan. "It's
very likely some species will be of direct benefit to humans."

Some scientists believe life on Earth may have begun in these gloomy caverns far from sun and air about four billion years
ago. If life exists on other planets or moons, they say it may be found in similar dark environments, sheltered from lethal
cosmic rays and meteor bombardments.

The new international drilling project, involving researchers from 20 countries, is a stepped-up successor to a smaller,
American-led Ocean Drilling Program that ended last fall. Over 18 years, from 1985 to 2003, the U.S. research ship JOIDES
Resolution bored about 2,000 holes at 650 different sites around the world, making many significant scientific observations.

For instance, an expedition a year ago in the tropical Atlantic turned up evidence, buried in seafloor sediment, of repeated
episodes of rapid global warming that led to massive plant and animal extinction in the distant past.

"Without exploring the basics of how these systems work, we can't have confidence in our ability to predict their behavior
on shorter time scales, like human lifespans," said Margaret Delaney, an ocean scientist at the University of California,
Santa Cruz.

As part of the new program, researchers also will investigate how events at the ocean bottom can touch off dangerous
earthquakes and volcanic eruptions.

"The dynamics of the Earth's interior processes... have a major financial and safety impact," Delaney said in an e-mail.

On its latest voyage, scientists aboard the Resolution successfully matched the chemistry and geology of portions of the
seafloor off Newfoundland to similar formations off the coasts of Spain and Portugal. The match confirmed that North
America and Europe once belonged to a single continent that split apart about 145 million years ago, opening the way for the
formation of the Atlantic Ocean.

Previous drilling operations have:

Confirmed the theory of plate tectonics, which describes the breakup and movement of the continents.

Discovered the mid-ocean ridge, a 40,000-mile underwater mountain chain encircling the globe like the laces on a baseball.

Studied the great ocean currents that control temperatures on land.

Located traces of enormous sheets of ancient lava as much as 20 miles thick that spewed from undersea volcanoes. One such
deposit covered almost four million square miles on the bottom of the Atlantic, stretching from eastern Canada to Spain and
Africa's Ivory Coast.

Despite these achievements, most of the ocean floor and interior remain virtually unknown, project scientists acknowledge.

The new program will have two research vessels at its disposal.

A Japanese drill ship, the Chikyu, now under construction, will begin operations in 2006. The U.S. National Science
Foundation is seeking $100 million for a more capable vessel to replace the 26-year-old Resolution, which will be retired in
Galveston, Texas, next year.

Before it puts away its drill bits, the Resolution will make one more cruise under the auspices of the international program.
The voyage will start June 24 in the Northeast Pacific, studying the biology and geology of the seafloor off the coast of
Oregon, Washington and British Columbia.

Next fall and winter, the Resolution will move to the North Atlantic near the Azores, Greenland and Iceland. It will also try
to drill a hole in the seafloor of the Arctic Ocean.

"This will be the first time we've ever done that," Moore said. "We don't have any idea what we're going to find."

The U.S. National Science Foundation, the Japanese Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology, and the
European Consortium for Ocean Research Drilling are sponsoring the research. Countries in Europe and Asia are expected to
share operating costs of $160 million a year when both ships are at work.

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atlantisturk
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posted 07-11-2004 00:52     Click Here to See the Profile for atlantisturk     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The answer can be found in phaistos disc found in Crete, in 1908. According to Nurihan Fattah, a Kazan University professor, reading this disc in Tatarian Turkish, in Atlantis the written and spoken language was Turkish.

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Brig
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posted 07-11-2004 16:54     Click Here to See the Profile for Brig     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Essan, speaking of landmasses not sinking deeply in the ocean. If that large apparent area off the coast of Cuba actually turns out to be the ruins of a vast city complex, as it very much appears it could be, then forces of sinking land may be much more acute than is the popular opinion. Never be too certain, in science, of anything. Too many unknowns tend to topple theories. Keep an open mind. There are simply things under the sun that do not attend to our best theories and tend to ocassionaly rear up and bite us in the butt.

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rockessence
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posted 07-11-2004 19:20     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Brig,

That area off of Cuba didn't necessasarily sink, but may have been dry during the Ice-time if the sea level of the Atlantic was low enough. The Caribbean island chain forms a mountain chain all the way to So. America. This may have held back the ocean water for a long, long time.

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Essan
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posted 07-12-2004 04:06     Click Here to See the Profile for Essan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The possible city Brig trefers to is under 2,000ft of water, so would never have been on dry land during the ice age, unless the land it's on has sunk an awful lot since then.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1697038.stm

You're right Brig, there's always the possibility of something new coming up and overturning our paradigms, but for the most part they're variations on an old theme rather than something entirely new.

So, for the time being, I prefer to stick with conventional geology which leaves us with just a small possibility a part of the Mid Atlantic Ridge to have been dry for a few thousand years during the ice age. But only a few scatrece plants and insects would have inhabited it - hardly a place for humans to make home. The difference with Indonesia and Australia is that they've always been above sea level and have always had a huge variety of flora and fauna.

Small islands do appear - and sometimes disappear again - around Iceland as a consequence of volcanoc activity. But for an island the size Atalntic is supposed to have been, we're gonna need more than the odd volcano and some evidence would still exist after such a short space of (geological) time.

Getting back to the Cuban 'city'. The geology of the area is different to the Mid Atlantic ridge and massive subsidence of land into a subduction zone is a possibility. Of course, it's all speculation until we know if it is a city and/or how long it's been down there.

Maybe it's the remains of Dinopolis, destroyed by the Chixculub impact 65mya

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rockessence
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posted 07-12-2004 09:20     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Essan,
I know that the "city", or remains, are at that depth. No one argues that the Mediterranean has not been dry a few times. I merely state that given that the chain of islands running from Florida to Venezuela are set in the form af a mountain chain, There is the possibility that the receding water levels in the oceans could have rendered the area dry during the long span of Ice-time.

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dhill757
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posted 07-13-2004 02:06     Click Here to See the Profile for dhill757     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Essan,

I'm a little disappointed to see you don't attach much credence to the Laurasia theory, I still think it sounds pretty sound.

There are several ways that Atlantis might have existed:

1. The raised Mid-Atlantic Ridge. Depending on how many years it was above the surface, it needn't have been a barren rock. The Azores certainly aren't barren rocks, they have a lot of flora and fauna on them. Any Mid-Atlantic Ridge as Atlantis theory presumes that it was much like this. The temperatures there are almost a constant 70 degrees year round and the area gets a lot of rainfall.

2. Atlantis, like Surtsey, could have been one of the many volcanic islands "spit out" by the volatile Atlantic, then taken back at a later date. Iceland is such an island. One of the most telling parts of the article I posted is that there is a lava sheet that stretches 20 miles thick:

quotes from the Philadelphia Inquirer:

"Located traces of enormous sheets of ancient lava as much as 20 miles thick that spewed from undersea volcanoes. One such deposit covered almost four million square miles on the bottom of the Atlantic, stretching from eastern Canada to Spain and Africa's Ivory Coast."

"For instance, an expedition a year ago in the tropical Atlantic turned up evidence, buried in seafloor sediment, of repeated episodes of rapid global warming that led to massive plant and animal extinction in the distant past."

Both these could have something to do with Atlantis. Depending on how long it took for the lava to accumulate, Atlantis could be beneath the lava. "Repeated episodes of global warming that led to mass plant and animal extinction" also implies times where the Ice age could have come to an end quickly, bringing about massive tsunamis and flooding. Whatever we think we know, it is plain from the article that we still need to learn a lot more about the oceans.

3. Laurasia, this would imply a much older Atlantis, perhaps. I can certainly see that there is a "piece" missing from the continental plates between North America and Europe. Even if we take cotinental drift as a complete fact, the continents have been drifting apart for millions of years, we can only assume we know exactly what the map of the world looked like during all those earth changes.

4. The water levels being lower during the Ice Age, Atlantis could have been simply a larger version of one of the island chains we still have in the Atlantic now - the Azores, Madeiras, Canaries, etc. Yes, this would mean that Atlantis was smaller than Plato mentioned it being, but if you look at the description - one large central city surrounded by mountains and a large, flat rectangular plain, he does seem to be describing something along the lines of a large island rather than something of continental size.

5. Atlantis, according to the Oera Linde book, was also presumed to be a sunken area off Holland. I know very little about that, but I have heard that the sea is at it's shallowest in the area where this "other Atlantis" (circa 2193 for it's destruction), was supposed to have occurred.

6. Riven has also mapped out a bathymetric map of a area of the Atlantic that could have been Atlantis. I don't know where he got the information, but it takes in an area just east f the west of the Azores that includes both that island chain, Madeiras and the Canaries. Where is the proof that it exists? Well, there were underwater ruins found by the Russians found by the Ampere Seamounts, steps and walls, back in 1978, investigated all the more in subsequent expeditions.

your quote:

You're right Brig, there's always the possibility of something new coming up and overturning our paradigms, but for the most part they're variations on an old theme rather than something entirely new."

The reason for that is simple, science is simply very slow to accept any new ideas, it takes not only decades, but centuries. Geology itself is still a comparatively new science, created back in the 1800's. Underwater geology is even newer. The plain truth is that the oceans haven't been investigated as much as others would have us believe. Though the Mid-Atlantic Ridge was discovered back in the 1800's,and first investigated in the late 1940's, Robert Ballard was the one to do the first comprehensive study on it, which wasn't until 1973. Actually, scientists are still confirming the idea of plate tectonics, which, at times, is even at odds with continental drift.

If all this sounds like I'm very much "pro-Atlantis", well, it'e because I am! I'm actually a little disappointed you're not. I suppose you have to go where the textbooks take you, but the simple truth about science is the more we know, the more we find out we don't know. I try to look at all the scientific evidence people present trying to prove it aswell as disprove it. The sad truth of it all is that, no matter how people try and position themselves on experts on the topic, they really don't know. It all comes down to educated guesswork based on the only available data. The picure is far from complete, and we've only seen part of it.

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Essan
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posted 07-13-2004 05:46     Click Here to See the Profile for Essan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dhill:

quote:
There are several ways that Atlantis might have existed:

1. The raised Mid-Atlantic Ridge. Depending on how many years it was above the surface, it needn't have been a barren rock. The Azores certainly aren't barren rocks, they have a lot of flora and fauna on them. Any Mid-Atlantic Ridge as Atlantis theory presumes that it was much like this. The temperatures there are almost a constant 70 degrees year round and the area gets a lot of rainfall.


The Azores aren't barren rocks now, but, according to Andrew Collins (Gateway to Atlantis): "when the first Portuguese navigators reached the Azorean islands in 1427, they found them devoid not only of human life but also of any fauna" http://www.andrewcollins.com/page/interactive/midatlan.htm

quote:
2. Atlantis, like Surtsey, could have been one of the many volcanic islands "spit out" by the volatile Atlantic, then taken back at a later date. Iceland is such an island. One of the most telling parts of the article I posted is that there is a lava sheet that stretches 20 miles thick

Actually Iceland is a bit more complicated than that, it may lie atop a mantle plume and has in any case been arround for millions of years without showing any sign of dispappearing under the sea. Theoretically it could. But it'd take millions of years of erosion.... Islands like Surtsey are just cinder mounds - not exactly Plato's Atlantis.

quote:
quotes from the Philadelphia Inquirer:

"Located traces of enormous sheets of ancient lava as much as 20 miles thick that spewed from undersea volcanoes. One such deposit covered almost four million square miles on the bottom of the Atlantic, stretching from eastern Canada to Spain and Africa's Ivory Coast."

"For instance, an expedition a year ago in the tropical Atlantic turned up evidence, buried in seafloor sediment, of repeated episodes of rapid global warming that led to massive plant and animal extinction in the distant past."


Not sure where they get this 'massive plant and animal extinction' bit from, but then this is just a newspaper story. But deep sea sediment cores do reveal rapid fluctuations in climate during the last ice age (Dansgaard-Oeschger events http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/abrupt/data_glacial2.html ) As for the lava sheets - well that's what you get if you have a tectonicc convergence zone - ie mid Atlantic ridge.

quote:
3. Laurasia, this would imply a much older Atlantis, perhaps. I can certainly see that there is a "piece" missing from the continental plates between North America and Europe. Even if we take cotinental drift as a complete fact, the continents have been drifting apart for millions of years, we can only assume we know exactly what the map of the world looked like during all those earth changes.

The problem is, if you split up Laurasia, N America goes one way, Europe goes the other. If Atlantis were the 'missing piece' it would have to be on a seperate tectonic plate. So where is it now? And the one place it couldn't be is the mid Atlantic ridge - because that's where the N American and European plates are seperating. You can't have a piece of continent on a tectonic convergence zone.

quote:
4. The water levels being lower during the Ice Age, Atlantis could have been simply a larger version of one of the island chains we still have in the Atlantic now - the Azores, Madeiras, Canaries, etc. Yes, this would mean that Atlantis was smaller than Plato mentioned it being, but if you look at the description - one large central city surrounded by mountains and a large, flat rectangular plain, he does seem to be describing something along the lines of a large island rather than something of continental size.

There is a remote possibility of this, but the problem, as already mentioned, is that it would still be a barren island.

quote:
5. Atlantis, according to the Oera Linde book, was also presumed to be a sunken area off Holland. I know very little about that, but I have heard that the sea is at it's shallowest in the area where this "other Atlantis" (circa 2193 for it's destruction), was supposed to have occurred.

Yes, the N Sea was dry land during the last glacial maximum. People may even have been on Dogger Bank when it became an island, and later submerged. But that wasn't the Atlantis of Plato.

quote:
6. Riven has also mapped out a bathymetric map of a area of the Atlantic that could have been Atlantis. I don't know where he got the information, but it takes in an area just east f the west of the Azores that includes both that island chain, Madeiras and the Canaries. Where is the proof that it exists? Well, there were underwater ruins found by the Russians found by the Ampere Seamounts, steps and walls, back in 1978, investigated all the more in subsequent expeditions.

There's actually no evidence that this story of ruins is true.

quote:
If all this sounds like I'm very much "pro-Atlantis", well, it'e because I am! I'm actually a little disappointed you're not.

I don't believe in 'Atlantis', but I do believe that Plato may have based his story in part on legends of 'sunken lands' - possibly derived from Phoenician or Carthaginian tales. I certainly believe in the possibility of a 'lost' ice age (low technology) civilisation.

quote:
I suppose you have to go where the textbooks take you, but the simple truth about science is the more we know, the more we find out we don't know. I try to look at all the scientific evidence people present trying to prove it aswell as disprove it. The sad truth of it all is that, no matter how people try and position themselves on experts on the topic, they really don't know. It all comes down to educated guesswork based on the only available data. The picure is far from complete, and we've only seen part of it.

I agree! However I prefer to take orthodox science as a starting point, rather than ignoring it and making up my own science as I go along - as some people (not you Dhill) seem to do sometimes. If a theory means overturning orthodox scientific views then it needs some pretty conclusive evidence. I'd sooner listen to a thousand experienced geologists than one amateur

And of course the other question still remains unanswered: how and why did the ancestors of the Atlanteans go to Atlantis in the first place. What drove them there? And when? Huge sea faring empires don't suddenly materialise out of nowhere. Maybe that's the cue for a new thread? Where did the Atlanteans come from?

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rockessence
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posted 07-13-2004 11:01     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
From PA RA DIS ET.

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dhill757
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posted 07-13-2004 15:19     Click Here to See the Profile for dhill757     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Essan,

quote:

"If a theory means overturning orthodox scientific views then it needs some pretty conclusive evidence. I'd sooner listen to a thousand experienced geologists than one amateur."

I suppose I'm a little different than you in that I believe that all scientists are amateurs. For everything that science presume to know, there are a million things that they do not, and nature provides many exceptions. Good to have people like you on the forum, though, because it keeps the people who get too carried away with "pseudo-science" honest, though! You'll notice I didn't mention Hapgood's earth-shifting crust theory. That is one that needs much more investigation.

quote:

"The Azores aren't barren rocks now, but, according to Andrew Collins (Gateway to Atlantis): "when the first Portuguese navigators reached the Azorean islands in 1427, they found them devoid not only of human life but also of any fauna"

I'm surprised to hear you quote Andrew Collins, since no one involved with this quote is a scientist, and, incidentally, the same visit also implied that the Phoenicians had also made their way there two thousand years before (evidenced in other accounts of Carthaginian coins supposedly found there).

The rest of the quote goes on like this:

"With a knowledge of ancient river systems, the O'Briens were able to reconstruct a land profile which revealed an Azorean landmass 'about the size and shape of Spain', with high mountain ranges rising over 3655 metres above sea-level, as well as impressive rivers that run 'in curving valley systems'. Furthermore, they have pointed out that:
In the southeast, a feature which we have called 'The Great Plain' covered an area in excess of 3500 square miles [9065 square kilometres], and was watered by a river comparable in size to the River Thames in England. It has, as we shall see, points in common with a great plain described by Plato in his Critias, as being a feature of the island of Atlantis.

The conclusion drawn from these findings is that the Azores once formed part of a much greater landmass which sank beneath the waves and is now situated 'many thousands of feet' below the current sea-level. To obtain a more substantial insight into this fascinating subject, the O'Briens propose that a scientific team take a series of core samples from the proposed sites of their river channels. They confidently predict that these will show not only evidence of ancient river beds, but also of the freshwater flora and fauna which once thrived on the former Azorean landmass."

I've been looking for the book "the Shining Ones" for some time. Again, it's not clear evidence of Atlantis, there are no cities beneath the ocean, but it certainly proves Atlantis once could have been there once.

quote:

"Actually Iceland is a bit more complicated than that, it may lie atop a mantle plume and has in any case been arround for millions of years without showing any sign of dispappearing under the sea. Theoretically it could. But it'd take millions of years of erosion.... Islands like Surtsey are just cinder mounds - not exactly Plato's Atlantis."

Agreed! I guess my point in bring up Surtsey is that in the volatile Atlantic is that anything is possible. Maybe a better example would have been in the Pacific, with Krakatoa, a bigger landmass, where 38,000 people met their end once it blew it's top back in the 1800's. Again, this could have happened, depending on how big Atlantis was.

quote:

"Not sure where they get this 'massive plant and animal extinction' bit from, but then this is just a newspaper story. But deep sea sediment cores do reveal rapid fluctuations in climate during the last ice age

As for the lava sheets - well that's what you get if you have a tectonicc convergence zone - ie mid Atlantic ridge."

The massive plant and animal extinctions probably refer to events millions of years ago. My point is that there is a lava sheet two miles thick beneath the ocean. What is beneath the lava? Who knows. Like the ice of Antarctica, it isn't telling.

quote:

"The problem is, if you split up Laurasia, N America goes one way, Europe goes the other. If Atlantis were the 'missing piece' it would have to be on a seperate tectonic plate. So where is it now? And the one place it couldn't be is the mid Atlantic ridge - because that's where the N American and European plates are seperating. You can't have a piece of continent on a tectonic convergence zone."

Agreed, it isn't anywhere near the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, but the land may never have gone anywhere at all, could well have also simply been at a lower elevation than the two continents and been sinking all this time, sort of like Holland is sinking.

About the Azores & Atlantic islands being Atlantis:

"There is a remote possibility of this, but the problem, as already mentioned, is that it would still be a barren island."

The barren land theory is really a sticking point for you. Again, the Canaries fit that description, despite what you have said about the Azores, they have always been lush as far as I know. The only opinion I hear to the contrary is the quote from Andrew Collins, who is, again, relying only on a single account.

You mentioned Dogger bank:

"Yes, the N Sea was dry land during the last glacial maximum. People may even have been on Dogger Bank when it became an island, and later submerged. But that wasn't the Atlantis of Plato."

I don't think this is the same Atlantis either, but Oera Linde does have a long tradition of this area once being inhabited and the land it bore at the time was "Atland."

quote:

"Well, there were underwater ruins found by the Russians found by the Ampere Seamounts, steps and walls, back in 1978, investigated all the more in subsequent expeditions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"There's actually no evidence that this story of ruins is true."

It was printed in the New York Times in an edition back in 1978. Pictures were in the Charles Berlitz book Atlantis, the Eighth Continent also has pictures, but they are hazy and dark. I don't think they prove anything one way or another because they are so covered in lava. Riven has been looking for the original pictures, we'll see if they ever turn up.

quote:

I don't believe in 'Atlantis', but I do believe that Plato may have based his story in part on legends of 'sunken lands' - possibly derived from Phoenician or Carthaginian tales. I certainly believe in the possibility of a 'lost' ice age (low technology) civilisation."

I do, too, I don't see Atlantis as ever having been a "super-civilization" of the type described by Edgar Cayce. On the other hand, if people were already travelling by boats at 40,000 b.c., it doesn't take much more imagination to think that they could have evolved into the seemingly Bronze Age civilizaion that Plato speaks of.

As for some other civilization inspiring the tale of Atlantis - Carthage, the Sea People, Phoenicians, etc., that assumes that only the Greeks were involved, not the Egyptians, for they kept pretty tidy records. They had dealings with all these people, in fact, they made the Phoenicians sail around Africa, so they would have known who they were.

In short, as long as humans are involved in anything, there is the potential for overlooking key evidence and consigning vital facts to the dust bin. We aren't as learned yet about the world that we live in, let alone the oceanse beneath us. As much as we might think we know, the truth is we just don't know.

Here's a bathymetric map posted in another thread today you might haven't seen yet:
http://ibis.grdl.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/bathy/bathD.pl

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rockessence
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posted 07-13-2004 22:26     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
dhill,Essan,
I just had to chime in here...
quote:

I don't believe in 'Atlantis', but I do believe that Plato may have based his story in part on legends of 'sunken lands' - possibly derived from Phoenician or Carthaginian tales. I certainly believe in the possibility of a 'lost' ice age (low technology) civilisation."


Plato may well have, but it is likely that he is reporting exactly what was told him. It also makes sense to me that because there were many, many islands and coastlands that were swamped forever from rising waters after the end of Ice-time, that many stories were mixed and/or accumulated into common lore.

I must add that the level of technology of the (so-called) "lost" Arctical civilization is something we can muse on and speculate on till the cows come home, but that is all it can be until the Lemminkainen temple complex is opened or until the excavation of the courtyard of the Kajaani castle takes place. According to Ior Bock, the temple has "millions" of rooms cut out of the solid granite containing the treasures of each years best production in each room. The purest gold on the planet is found in Finland and it was shared by all, as was every good thing. Buried in an ancient well in the courtyard of Kajaani castle is a large metal box containing the royal regalia and a golden bock.

These people had the technology to move massive stones anywhere they wanted to put them. They took that to Britain, the middle sea, and the Americas.

They were people of such powerful spirit and connection to natural perfection that we remember them 10,000 years later in thousands of ways. They made a language and a religion that covered the planet before it (they)became changed when the ice-time came and cut off the branches from the center.

The glaciers scraped the land clean and destroyed much, but the culture rebuilt at it's core.

The Popes scraped the land clean, and destroyed almost all, but much was hidden, and remains hidden until we open the repository of the relics of the most ancient people on the planet.

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Andre
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posted 07-15-2004 08:25     Click Here to See the Profile for Andre     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
rockessence

quote:

That area off of Cuba didn't necessasarily sink, but may have been dry during the Ice-time if the sea level of the Atlantic was low enough. The Caribbean island chain forms a mountain chain all the way to So. America. This may have held back the ocean water for a long, long time.

Nice try, but there is a deep oceanic trough that starts close to the the possible sunken megalithic site, all the way to the Atlantic, this would have precluded any land formations that hold back the water. That feature itself may have more to say about the fate of that site itself. Earth has done strange thing and I concur completely with Brig on this one.

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rockessence
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posted 07-15-2004 09:30     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Drat! Foiled again!

Then why the perfect "chain" between Florida and Venezuela? Is it possible the trough is a later development? When did the meteor hit Yucatan?

[This message has been edited by rockessence (edited 07-17-2004).]

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Riven
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posted 07-17-2004 03:06     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Looking at these two links makes it virtually impossible that Solon made a mistake between thousand and hundreds of years around 570 bC.

So I doubt Herodotus made a mistake as the legend was still fresh in mind around 4-300 bC, so how could Socrates, Critias and Plato make that mistake?

The Priest also took Solon to see the written records. Judging from the great difference in the Egyptian symbol for 100 and 1000, it is highly unlikely they made a mistake.

Egyptian numbers; http://www.jimloy.com/egypt/numbers.htm

Egyptian calendar: http://www.jimloy.com/egypt/time0.htm

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dhill757
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posted 07-18-2004 21:23     Click Here to See the Profile for dhill757     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great links as usual, Riven. There's no question that the Egyptian symbol for one hundred cannot be mistaken for the Egyptian symbol for one thousand, so if the story happened as true, it was probably 9000 years on the Egyptian end.

However, there are a couple of variables. First, the Egyptians may have not used the exact date, 9000, but rather something along the lines of "a long time ago." 9000, being the biggest number in the Greek numerical system at the time, may have been the only way that Solon could address the issue of time.

Second, if by some chance the Egyptians weren't involved, then the Egyptian numerical system wouldn't even come into play. If that were the case, it also wouldn't matter because then the whole story would have either been a composite of sorts, or made up entirely (something I don't believe, of course).

I take much of this at it's face value, always have, probably always will.

Did Herodotus make any mention of Atlantis? I brought this possibility up to Jonas one time and he flatly said he didn't.

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Riven
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posted 07-18-2004 22:30     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thank you dhill757.

Herodotus,as far as we know made no mention of Atlantis other than the Atalantes region and the trip of Solon to Egypt. If I recall he did make mention of an island past the pillars where the Carthagenians were wanting to visit. They would leave their trade items on the island and the natives would replace what they wanted with Gold and jewellery. Neither side taking what they wanted without agreement.

It is peculiar that Herodotus made no direct mention of Atlantis unless that work hasn't been found yet or he was unaware of it since he preceded Plato, especially considering he recounts Solon's visit to Egypt. Maybe Plato stole the story from Herodotus?

Herodotus wrote the Histories around 440-430 bC.

Book I

"On this account, as well as to see the world, Solon set out upon his travels, in the course of which he went to Egypt to the court of Amasis, and also came on a visit to Croesus at Sardis."
http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.html

Herodotus on Mauretania

"The Carthaginians also relate the following: There is a country in Libya, and a nation, beyond the Pillars of Hercules, which they are wont to visit, where they no sooner arrive but forthwith they unlade their wares, and, having disposed them after an orderly fashion along the beach, leave them, and, returning aboard their ships, raise a great smoke. The natives, when they see the smoke, come down to the shore, and, laying out to view so much gold as they think the worth of the wares, withdraw to a distance. The Carthaginians upon this come ashore and look. If they think the gold enough, they take it and go their way; but if it does not seem to them sufficient, they go aboard ship once more, and wait patiently. Then the others approach and add to their gold, till the Carthaginians are content. Neither party deals unfairly by the other: for they themselves never touch the gold till it comes up to the worth of their goods, nor do the natives ever carry off the goods till the gold is taken away."

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Riven
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posted 07-18-2004 23:52     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Herodotus histories

Book 8.25
four thousand = tesseres chiliades
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0125:book=8:chapter=25:section=1

The Athenians, while the Pelasgians ruled what is now called Hellas, were Pelasgians, bearing the name of Cranai. When Cecrops was their king they were called Cecropidae, and when Erechtheus succeeded to the rule, they changed their name and became Athenians. When, however, Ion son of Xuthus was commander of the Athenian army, they were called after him Ionians.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0126:book=8:chapter=44:section=1

hexakosioi= six hundred

enakischilia=nine thousand
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0179:div1=Criti.:section=108e

Even though muriades means a great many in Greek, it is not a specific number as we find in Critias and other scripts where they were indeed meant to be specific.

LXXXII. As for marvels, there are none in the land, except that it has by far the greatest and the most numerous rivers in the world; and over and above the rivers and the great extent of the plains there is one most marvellous thing for me to mention: they show a footprint of Heracles by the Tyras river stamped on rock, like the mark of a man's foot, but forty inches in length.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126&layout=&query=chapter%3D%23646&loc=4.81.1

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rockessence
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posted 07-19-2004 03:26     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Riven,
The links seem to be inoperable at the moment, I was hoping to check out the last one...

"except that it has by far the greatest and the most numerous rivers in the world; "

I was wondering which country is meant here?

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Riven
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posted 07-19-2004 03:42     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
rockessence;
Hyperborea, Europe, Scythia

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Smiley4554
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From: Arkansas...USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 07-19-2004 10:53     Click Here to See the Profile for Smiley4554     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
dhill, I have been saying the same thing about the Mid-Atlantic Ridge for I don't know how long. Unfortunately, since the AR "purge" we cannot go back to retrieve it, so I'll get the links again.

There are actually 10 plains within the Atlantic Ocean stretching from top to bottom.

On the link below, you can access the map(s). I particularly like these maps since it lists almost every place within the oceans.

You will need the North & South Atlantic maps as well as the Antarctic and Arctic maps.
http://www.mapquest.com/atlas/?region=natlantc

Biscay
Sohm
Hatteras
Cape Verde
Demeraro

If you will notice, the Atlantic Floor is has a clear shape. It follows exactly the shapes of both the American continents & Europe & African continents.

The Mid-Atlantic Ridge ripped the 2 apart - right down the center - while ALSO following the shape of these continents. It continues all the way up & down the Atlantic ocean into the Antarctic & Arctic Oceans.

Quite clearly, the entire area looks as if it sunk altogether.
http://www.mapquest.com/atlas/?region=satlantc

Pernambuco
Angola
Cape
Argentine

http://www.mapquest.com/atlas/?region=antarcoc

Weddell
http://www.mapquest.com/atlas/?region=arcticoc

I have listed all of the 10 plains in the Atlantic Ocean. Since it is written that there were 10 kings of Atlantis, this is not really a stretch of an imagination to figure this one out.

The easiest way is to print out all 4 maps, and splice them together for a whole picture.

There is ample evidence to support EVERYONE'S theory (except those outside the Atlantic Ocean) that all of the areas mentioned were Atlantis.

In order to get 10 Kingdoms, one has to realize that those 10 Kingdoms were not on top of each other. Atlantis was either the name of the combined islands' country, or it was the name of the "capital" city. Frankly, I believe it was the former. Well, I guess it could have been like "New York, New York". It would have been "Atlantis, Atlantis".

Regardless, with 10 kids, there had to be a large area.

Now, Atlantis had conquered almost every interior Mediterranean country EXCEPT Athens (Greece), or they had a colony (city). Again, not a stretch of the imagination. The areas of the known world which Atlantis had conquered were probably also split up & ruled by each of the 10 kings from their kingdom. Each was charged with certain areas to keep them "in line".

But, they were not satisfied. They wanted ALL the countries, so they attacked Athens, and lost. Why? Interesting question. Perhaps it was the topography & fighting in an unknown area. There were 20,000 warriors in Athens which included both male & female. But, whatever the reason, Atlantis was defeated.

Soon after, the destruction came, and it also included the Mediterranean countries for even Athens army sank in the mud, and the acropolis topsoil was completely washed away leaving only the rock on which it now stands. This indicates that a great flood washed over the area (not as much as in the Atlantic, but one large enough to do this type of damage.

Therefore, I submit...Atlantis stretched from the North to the South, from the East of the Americas to the West of Africa & Europe, and their kingdon encompassed most of the then-known world.

------------------
"Love your enemies ! It drives 'em nuts !!" Anonymus

If you have any questions or complaints or even just want to chat, e-mail me @ the following: (Just make sure you put "AR" in the subject line) as well as your user name on AR. Otherwise, it will be deleted. Thank you. Kim

Smiley4554@hotmail.com


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Spiritwalker
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From: qwnfd
Registered: Dec 2003

posted 07-19-2004 14:40     Click Here to See the Profile for Spiritwalker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In order to get 10 Kingdoms, one has to realize that those 10 Kingdoms were not on top of each other. Atlantis was either the name of the combined islands' country, or it was the name of the "capital" city. Frankly, I believe it was the former. Well, I guess it could have been like "New York, New York". It would have been "Atlantis, Atlantis".

Regardless, with 10 kids, there had to be a large area.

That's a great point Smiley,

I found this old book called Gods graves and Scholars,
on page 318 he talks about the Greeks and how they still thought the number 10,000 as a "large uncountable aggregation. Not until the nineteenth century did the concept million become common in the West.
BY contrast cuneiform texts records mathematical number system expressed as 195,955,200,000,000 this means the realms of calculation did not again enter the realm of calculation until the days of Descartes and Leibniz.

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dhill757
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From: Madison
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posted 07-19-2004 23:34     Click Here to See the Profile for dhill757     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Smiley, great work on figuring the topography of what would be the Atlantean empire! Most likely, Atlantis was the name for the whole empire, while Poseidonis was the name of the island.

Why did Atlantis lose the war to Athens..? You asked, so I'll tell you, my theory anyway. First, the elements and the topography would have had to play some role in it. As they fought, whatever catastrophe that absorbed Atlantis would have already been into effect. My guess is it moved east, not west. I'm guessing, if all this is true, an asteroid hit the Mid-Atlantic Ridge and the place was torn apart and sunk by the earthquakes that Plato mentions, not to mention tsunamis. Catastrophe mentioned they can get up to 6,000 feet high. Water that powerful obliterates all it touches. Atlantis would be gone quickly.

As for the ships and army fighting throughout the Mediterranean. There was probably also a massive deluge also taking place. It would take about twenty hours for the catastrophe to reach Europe and absorb those doing the fighting. The Athenians would be more familiar with the topography, but even that would not give them the edge they needed, being so outnumbered.

There is one place in Greece that is famous for a small army holding back thousands, Thermapolyae. There, three hundred Spartans held back a Persian force numbering one hundred thousand for three days. It would be an eerie echo if something similar happened there years before.

So, on a stormy day eleven thousand years ago, the Athens and Atlantis battled under a gray rain until a massive tsunami, straight from the Atlantic, came in and destroyed both armies, the ships, too.

And that was how the Atlantean army was destroyed! It's so real to me that sometimes I see it in my dreams.

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Smiley4554
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From: Arkansas...USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 07-20-2004 09:53     Click Here to See the Profile for Smiley4554     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, Spirit & dhill. This topography was brought up by me quite a long time ago, but the topic no longer exists.

Anyway, this was debated quite a bit, but for some reason, no one could negate it. Oh, some tried, but they were not very convincing.

Think I'll post an all-new topic on this as well.

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Helios
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From: Rhodes (an island near Cyprus)
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 07-27-2004 01:30     Click Here to See the Profile for Helios     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
10th millennium BC
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.


(Pleistocene, Paleolithic – 10th millennium BC – 9th millennium BC – other millennia)

Beginning of the Mesolithic, or Epipaleolithic time period, which is the first part of the Holocene epoch.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
[edit]


Events

* circa 10,000 BC – Beginning of Jomon era in Japan
* circa 9600 BC – End of the Younger Dryas cold period -- boundary between Pleistocene and Holocene and traditionally the boundary between the Paleolithic and Mesolithic
* Before 9000 BC – First stone structures at Jericho

[edit]


Discoveries

* circa 10,000 BC – ceramic of the Jomon culture in Japan
* circa 10,000 BC – the dog is domesticated

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10th_millennium_BC

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Helios
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Posts: 325
From: Rhodes (an island near Cyprus)
Registered: Jun 2004

posted 07-27-2004 01:44     Click Here to See the Profile for Helios     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Deities of Greek Mythology

* Primordial
deities
* Titans
* Olympians
* Sea gods

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aquatic deities:

* Poseidon
* Oceanus
* Ceto
* Nereus
* Glaucus
* Thetis
* Amphitrite
* Tethys

* Triton
* Proteus
* Phorcys
* Pontus
* Oceanids
* Nereids
* Naiads


The ancient Greeks had a large number of sea gods.

The philosopher Plato once remarked that the Greeks were like frogs sitting around a pond - their many cities hugging close to the Mediterranean coastline from the Hellenic homeland to Asia Minor, Libya, Sicily and Sourthern Italy. It was natural, therefore, to develop a rich variety of aquatic divinities. The Greek sea gods include everything from primordial powers and an Olympian to chthonic nymphs, trickster figures, and monsters.

Perhaps borrowing from Near Eastern mythology, where water-deities like Tiamat and Apsu are the first gods, some early Greek thinkers made the sea-divinities into primordial powers. Oceanus and Tethys are the mother and father of the gods in the Iliad, while the Spartan poet Alcman made the nymph Thetis a demiurge-figure.

Poseidon, who once outshone Zeus in the Mycenean pantheon, was an important Olympian power; he was the chief patron of Corinth, many cities of Magna Graecia, and also Plato's legendary Atlantis.

Several sea gods conform to a single type: that of the halios geron or Old Man of the Sea. These are Nereus, Proteus, Glaucus and Phorkys. Each one is a shape-shifter, a prophet, and the father of either radiantly beautiful nymphs and hideous monsters. Each one emphasizes different aspects of the archetype: Proteus was known primarily as a shape-shifter and trickster, Phorcys as a father of monsters, Nereus for truth-telling and the beauty of his daughters, and Glaucus as a prophet.

Each one of these Old Men is the father or grandfather of many nymphs and/or monsters, who often bear names that are either allegorical (Thetis, "establishment"; Telesto, "success") or geographical (Rhode from "Rhodes"; Nilos, "Nile"). Each cluster of Old Man and daughters is therefore a kind of pantheon in miniature, each one a different possible configuration of the spiritual, moral and physical world writ small - and writ around the sea.

Homer's Odyssey contains a haunting description of a cave of the Nereids on Ithaca, close by a harbor sacred to Phorcys. The Neoplatonist philosopher Porphyry read this passage as an allegory of the whole universe - and he may not have far off the mark.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_sea_gods

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rockessence
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Posts: 1000
From: WA USA
Registered: Feb 2004

posted 07-27-2004 01:50     Click Here to See the Profile for rockessence     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dhill,

Regarding :

"There is one place in Greece that is famous for a small army holding back thousands, "

In Crete is the famous Samaria Gorge which runs from the high mountains in the middle of Crete to the south coast. There is a location where the sheer cliff walls narrow to around 10 feet! There are lots of stories of holding off attackers over the centuries, right up to the early part of last century (Turks).

The Greeks have always been masters at attack. When Mussolini sent his troups around the Adriatic to "sweep" into western Greece, the mountain villagers threw rocks from behind boulders at the soldiers and took all their guns! Which led to the German Storm-troopers being sent to take Greece, which took all of 6 weeks. Then when they tried to take Crete, it took them 6 months!

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Brig
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From: Old Washington, Ohio , USA
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 07-27-2004 18:19     Click Here to See the Profile for Brig     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Helios: A recent report shows that dogs were buried with or close to people over 40,000 years ago. I guess it depends on how you define, "Domesticated". There is circumstantial evidence that indicate people had dogs a lot longer, yet, than that.

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dhill757
Member

Posts: 526
From: Madison
Registered: Mar 2004

posted 07-31-2004 03:07     Click Here to See the Profile for dhill757     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://www.para-normal.com/nuke/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1598

The Date of 11,600 Before Present

* Plato affirms that the demise of Atlantis took place "9,000 years before the times of Solon". Now, Solon visited Egypt at about 600 BC, which adds to a total of about 11,600 BP (Before Present). Now, this is precisely the date of the cataclysmic ending of the Pleistocene Ice Age, as given by the geologic record. So, we are led to conclude that Plato's date is correct, and that the Greek philosopher indeed knew what he was talking about.

* Strabo, the Greek geographer and historian, tells us that 2,600 years before his time, certain navigants crossed beyond the Pillars of Hercules, and dealt with the Tartessians. Now, these Tartessians — who are often identified with the Atlanteans — had, he affirms, written records of their history that amounted to 7,000 years before their own time. Again, this adds to a date of about 11,600 BP, precisely as preconized by Plato for the Atlantean cataclysm, for Strabo flourished in the times of Christ.

* Arnobius, a Christian bishop of the fourth century AD, told in one of his sermons concerning the catastrophes that have previously destroyed human civilization, that "ten thousand years ago, a vast number of men burst forth from the island which is called Atlantis of Neptune, as Plato tells us, and utterly ruined and blotted out countless nations." Again, the date given by Arnobius turns out to be precisely the one of 11,600 BC. Though Arnobius' relation seems to be based on that of Plato, he had access to sources now lost that apparently confirmed Plato's disclosure in an independent way.

* Manetho, the Egyptian historian, places the start of the dynasty of the "Spirits of the Dead" 5,813 years before Menes, the first king of unified Egypt. Now, Menes flourished between 3,100 and 3,800 BC or perhaps, even earlier, as some specialists claim. Again, this gives a date between 11,000 and 11,600 BC, in close agreement with the one given by Plato. It is quite probable that the "Spirits of the Dead" of Manetho were indeed the survivors of the Atlantean cataclysm, the same dead ancestors that the Romans called Lemures or Lares.

* The Hindu traditions on the Yugas, as well as the similar ones of the Persians, hold that the eras of mankind last about 12,000 years each. On the other hand, these and other traditions maintain that we now enter, in the year 2,000, the final millennium of the present era, which started just after the demise of Atlantis. So, once again, we are led to the conclusion that the Atlantean cataclysm took place between 11,000 and 12,000 years ago.

* The Codex Troano of the Mayas, translated by Augustus le Plongeon, the celebrated Mayanist, recounts the tragedy of Lemurian Atlantis, which sunk away in a terrible cataclysm. It tells that millions of people died in the cataclysm, and that the event took place "8,060 years before the writing of this book." Supposing that the codex was written at about 1,500 BC, the start of the pre-classic Era, when the Mayan (Olmec) civilization sprung, we get a date for the cataclysm of about 11,600 BP. This is in perfect agreement with the date given by Plato. As is known, the Mayas originally came to America from an overseas paradise called Aztlan which sunk away underseas. Aztlan in visibly no other thing than Plato's Atlantis. Except that Aztlan was located beyond the Pacific, rather than the Atlantic Ocean.

* The Ramayana — the book that tells the destruction of Lanka by Rama and Hanumant — affirms that this war took place some 10,000 years before its own times. Now, the experts agree that the Ramayana was written at about 300 BC by Valmiki. Thus, the destruction of Lanka — which is no other thing than the one of Atlantis — took place at about 12,000 BP or so, in fair agreement with the date given by Plato.

* Hindu traditions affirm that the first sangham (poetic academy) lasted for 4,400 years. The second one for 3,700 years. And the third and last one, which ended at about the start of the Christian era, lasted for 1,850 years. This yields at total of 11,900 BP for the start of the sanghams which, tradition holds, began shortly after the Flood. Considering that the Flood corresponds to the cataclysm that destroyed Atlantis, this Hindu tradition on the poetic academics confirms the date of Plato with excellent accuracy.

* The end of the Pleistocene Ice Age — the date of whose closely coincides with the one of 11,600 BP given by Plato for Atlantis' demise — also marks the rise of agriculture, of city-building and of the Neolithic both in the Old and the New Worlds. According to a universal tradition, civilization was brought just about everywhere by white, blond, blue-eyed, titanic giants. These giants are no other than the Atlanteans fleeing their destroyed Paradise and moving into their new homelands in order to make a fresh start. As if to confirm this worldwide tradition, it is at this date that we start to find fossil skeletons of Cro-Magnoid men, so often equated with the Atlanteans. And these are found precisely the sites connected with the rise of the Neolithic and of Civilization

* Arthur Posnansky — the German-Bolivian archaeologist who long studied Tiahuanaco, the site of origin of the Incan civilization of Peru and Bolivia — concluded that this region of the Andes was formerly a seaport which suffered an uplift of about 3,000 meters. This cataclysm happened at about 11 or 12 thousand years ago, precisely the epoch of the Atlantean demise.

* Bruce Heezen, the famous oceanographer of the Lamont Geological Observatory, showed that sea-level underwent a rise of about 100 to 150 meters worldwide at about 11,600 BP. This rise resulted from the meltwaters of the Ice Age glaciers that covered a substantial portion of the continents in the temperate regions of the world and which were up to a few kilometers in thickness. Heezen also pointed out that this rise of sea-level was sufficient to drown most low-lying coastal regions of the planet. In particular, the region that now forms the South China Sea averages under 60 meters or so in depth. Thus, this region — precisely the one which we preconize to have been the site of Atlantis — got submerged by the rising waters, just as affirmed by Plato.

* Turning to Egyptian traditions, the source on which Plato bases his legend of Atlantis. The famous zodiac of Dendera — which was copied from far older versions whose origins are lost in the night of times — indicates that the constellation Leo lay at the vernal point in the epoch of its start. Now, the era of Leo centers at about 11,720 BC, in close agreement with the date given by Plato for the end of Atlantis and the start of the present era. What event but the cataclysmic end of the Pleistocene Ice Age and the consequent demise of Atlantis could better serve for the new start of times marked in that famous zodiac?

* Makrisi, a famous Arab historian of Egypt, affirms that "fire issued from the sign of Leo to destroy the world." This conflagration apparently confirms the above connection between the star of Dendera's zodiac and the Atlantean cataclysm disclosed by Plato. The Arabs conquered Egypt, and inherited its magnificent culture and traditions, and it is quite likely that Makrisi was basing himself on them.

* A Coptic papyrus indicates the same date for the Atlantean cataclysm. According to it: "the Flood will take place when the heart of the Lion (Aldebaran) enters the start of the head of Cancer". In other words, the papyrus affirms that when the vernal point coincided with the center of Leo — an event that took place some 11,600 years ago — the Flood took place, destroying Atlantis and ending the Pleistocene Ice Age, which had lasted for some 2.5 millions of years. In the terrible event, a great many species of mammals and other creatures became extinct all over the world. This fact attests the universal character of the tragedy.

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dhill757
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Posts: 526
From: Madison
Registered: Mar 2004

posted 07-31-2004 03:12     Click Here to See the Profile for dhill757     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rockessence, you bet the Greeks were great fighters, and they really crushed Mussolini when he tried to conquer them in 1942. The fact that Hitler had to send troops to Greece delayed his invasion into Russia, which, in the end helped him to lose the war.

The best moment for me, though, is when they fought off the Persians...long live Sparta!!

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Chronos
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Posts: 497
From: various
Registered: Jul 2004

posted 08-05-2004 08:11     Click Here to See the Profile for Chronos     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dhill,

A REFERENCE TO ATLANTIS THAT PREDATES PLATO

Hellanicus, a Greek writer who died in 410 b.c. had a writing entitled "Atlantis." Plato's account is frequently date to around 350 b.c. This would be the first reference to Atlantis in history. This work survives only in fragments and primarily describes Atlas and his daughters (the reference comes from the Andrew Collins book "Gateway to Atlantis.") Collins places little importance on it, but since, as I said, the work is only a fragment, how can we say what exactly was in this account? It mentions Atlas, his seven daughters (taken to be seven islands) and it mentions Poseidon.

Has Hellanicus ever been discussed prior to this on the forum?

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