QUOTE >> It's TANTAlizing to look at those pictures of the Big Butt Goddess and think her name might relate to CLEITO. Wouldn't that be a shock!!
Then you look at the Temple B picture and imagine the "Lathed Rings with Cleito's little protective portico in the back wall! << UNQUOTE

That BIG goddess may be parallel to Athena and both may find their archetype in the Mother Elephant i.e Goddess Hastina of Hastinapur around and before ~ 5500 BC.

“Hastina” or “Hathena” means “She Elephant”. So a she-elephant has to be mostly depicted in that BIG way only, if it is not due to an optical aberration created by the relative proximity of the photographic lens.

Previously I had to keep my mouth shut as I thought that the Monkey Vs Goat breeding is crossing the limits of genetics, chromosomes and DNA. Now I feel that problem lies somewhere else and the followers of the symbolic totems or of the Gods may be behind them.

Ancient scriptures depict not only the “Vaner” (Monkey Totem) but also “Gidhha” (Vulture Totem), “Richh” or “Bhalu”, “Bhalluk” (Bear Totem) and “Naga” (Cobra Totem). These peoples copied their symbolic totem in their lifestyle as well as war styles and tactics.

This may find a modern parallel in the various fighting styles of Karailpattu and Kung Fu, where they have developed various styles of martial arts based on the simpler movements of the Leopards, Monkeys, Cranes, Snakes and even the legendary Dragons etc.

As per an ancient scripture, the Vaners (Monkeys) had an opportunity to roam across the whole earth and so to settle at most suitable places.

I am yet to find a totem that symbolizes as “Goat”. However the basic story in this matter may be more interesting.

God Bramha is considered as the creator of the universe. God Bramha is also named as “Az” or “Aza” with “a” silent.

“Az” or “Aza” also translates as “Goat”. So in some weird Freudian way it sums up that “Aza the Bramha” is same thing as “Aza the Goat”. It simplifies that the “Goat” is creator of the Universe.

As the outcome of the war between the Gods and Titans, the Titans or Asurs had loosened their connections with the Gods. So they seem to have gone away from creator Bramha and so this responsibility they apparently passed on to his wife (Bramhani) i.e. the She-Goat or Nany-Goat. So Nany-Goat might have got the mattle of the creator of universe.

Respected Re:

The rest of the ancient Bock Saga is also quite interesting and I have perhaps found some clues to it. I may continue again when the time permits.

Here's another bit from the Bock saga for you...

... after the ice-time the Aser peoples emerged from the isolation and sent special envoys out across the planet to re-connect the earlier populations with their origins.

These representatives official name was "Hanuman" in the ROT(root) language.

Comment?

Another bit from Boreas thread NEW INFO ON ATLANTIS:

"Over the last five years we have also heard geneticans say that the closest relative to the dolphins are the goats. The close similarity have made the same geneticans conclude that the dolphin actually developed from a goat!

Moreover the conclusion states that the off-springs of this certain goat started returning to the ocean, changing from a land<animal to a highly developed sea-mammal!

If this conclusions stands the test of time we may have reason to believe that the goat have a certain affinity and capability of cross-breeding.

The knowledge of this later incident may also correspond with a symbol found in the ancient old tradition called astrology, - where the "sea-goat" CAPRICORN is known as the first sign of the zodiac..."

Please note: The FIRST SIGN of the zodiac!

I admit that I could not go through the full text of the Bock Saga yet. So I am trying to connect up the information based upon your presentations. When I go through the full text, then I may refine my thinking.

The name or meaning of “Bock” itself may mean a lot:

Bock << Vock << Vok << Vak

Vak = Speech or Spoken

Similarly; Vakya = Sentence

So “Bock Saga” can be a “Spoken Saga” and not a written saga and we know that it is correct. Accordingly the “Bock Family” may be a “Family which speaks (About the ancient Saga)”.

As you said that “Bock Family” was identified as “Piruet”.

Piruet << Puruet << Puroet << Purohet << Purohit

Purohit = Priest (Who performs all the sacred sacraments).

Purohit = Puro + Hit

Puro = Ancient and traditional, that is sacred

Hit = Interest

So; PuroHit = Priests; who are keepers of the interests of the sacred ancients traditions, sacraments and the sagas.

So; “PIRUET” = Priests; who are keepers of the interests of the sacred ancients traditions, sacraments and the sagas.

So the “Bock Family” as the “PIRUET” were fully justified in keeping alive the sacraments and the ancient traditional saga. At least this simple IE translation implies it clearly. I mean everything looks here as traditional and untouched. And ancient saga and the names have absolutely not been concocted.

By Dr David W.J. Gill
University of Wales, Swansea

the role of Delphi, the oikitestes, the foundation decree ;Herodotus.

Grinnos, King of Thera

Pythean Oracle- find a city in Libya to the people because of drought.

Therans go to Crete and Itanos on the east side.

Meet a purple-fisherman named Koroibos who had been to Libya.

Therans leave koroibos on Platea, island and establish a settlement. King Battus and brothers draw lots, live on Platea for two years.

Pythian Oracle:" If you know Libya, feeder of sheep,better than I, I who have been there,though you have not, I much admire your wisdom."

Settle a site in Libya named Aziris, shut in by beautiful valleys on both sides with a river on one side, for six years.

Greeks head west to the Sacred Spring of Apollo.

Battos rules 40 years, son Arkesilas 16 years, Battus the fortunate.

Pythias Oracle; "Whoever comes to lovely Libya after the land has been apportioned, I say will later regret it"

Battos an Oracle as founder of harvest bearing Libya. (Pindar)

4th Century bC Theran decree:
"The Therans shall be given the citizenship according to that ancestral custom which our forefathers established. Both those who founded Cyrene from Thera, and those at Thera who remained. Just as Apollo granted Battos and the Therans who founded good fortune if they abided by the sworn agreement.

Apollo Archagetes (Pindar)

Cities of Cyrenaica;

Cyrene / Barca / Tocra / Euesperides.

C7 Pottery includes Cyrene,Tocra and Euesperides, Laconian and Corinthian,Cyclades.

Cretan early formed houses found at Euesperides.

Foundation of Naukratis, Egypt.

This link is a slide show literature of the Professors.
Just click on the page to advance one slide.
http://www.swan.ac.uk/classics/staff/dg/lectures/Gkhist/4/gkhist4.ppt

Many thanks to David W. J. Gill.

"With the Roman invasion under Caesar, organized crime or the "Trade of Murder", was conquering France, Belgium and England. Some centuries later the Roman-Catholics where able to enhance the Empire. By 800 AD they took over Germany and by 985 the cultural head of ancient Europe, Denmark, became subject to the Roman rulers. By 1008 Sweden followed suit and in 1030 Norway -- for the first time in it's 8,000 year history -- was invaded and subdued by "foreign masters". By 1050 the "Holy Empire" directed an attack to the core of the old Nordic culture, the land of Oden itself - the capital of old Finland. According to old legends the King of The Aser was the richest of all heathen kings. But although the "crusading" mercenaries massacred all the "heathens" and destroyed absolutely everything in the county of Oden-ma, they where not able to find the entrance to the underground "city of gold".

Following this there was a crisis in the Greek-Roman alliance and by 1054AD the Christian church was split. Numerous attacks of war volleyed between Christians of east and west. After two hundred years of strife, the catholic Sweden found peace with the orthodox Russians, defining the border between east and west, Europe and Asia. Thus Finland, the oldest and the last heathen kingdom of Europe, came under Swedish rule when the last King of the Aser, who had been in hiding since 1050 in the north in Kajaani, abdicated to the Swedish ruler Birger Jarl in the summer of 1249

Thus northern and eastern Finland (Carelia) became the border area between the Greek-orthodox and the Roman-catholic regimes. Consequently the people of this area managed to keep their own language and their authentic culture to a much greater degree than the rest of the conquered i.e. religious Europe." www.bocksaga.de

Why 1984 to finally tell the story?

The agreement between the royal Bock line and the Pope was this, The Bock family could return to their holdings in the south of Finland and live AS LONG AS THEY NEVER SPOKE OF THE SAGA/HISTORY/RELIGION UNTIL 10,000 YEARS FROM THE END OF THE ICE-AGE!!!

The Bock saga tells exactly that date! So Ior Bock sat down with a couple of dozen people in Goa India at a specific hour and day in 1984, and began the first public "telling" of the saga since the year 1249!!!

"According to old legends the King of The Aser was the richest of all heathen kings. But although the "crusading" mercenaries massacred all the "heathens" and destroyed absolutely everything in the county of Oden-ma, they where not able to find the entrance to the underground "city of gold"."

----I have seen it suggested before that this is where the story of the "Seven Golden Cities of Cibola" started, which sparked searches in the New World 500 years later...

"In 1987 Ior Bock told about the Lemminkäinen Temple and the underground storage system. As he was the owner of the site (his father and mother had bought the land in 1937/38 and given to him as a gift in 1941) his friends and followers could start to search for the entrance.

The Saga gave good definition where to start the excavations, but the actual work has been from the beginning very difficult.
The stone plates covering the entrance in the bottom of the ravine in front of the Stupa were huge in size and had to be blasted by dynamite.
Just under the Stupa itself was again stone plate (1,5 meter thick), and after another blocking the entrance.
When these stones were removed, there was found an empty space where was something the excavators called as "gray mass" (see the figure above).
When excavators brought this gray mass out of the tunnel to sunshine it became very hard, stony, and difficult to brake.

In 1988 and 89 the excavations were supported with sponsorship, and afterwords in 1990 an 1991 the work continued without financial support but with great enthusiasm and hope for hitting soon into the hollow space, the Round Room, which unfortunately has not been found yet.

The entrance tunnel is now 31 meters long from the Stupa, and the floor of the tunnel at its end is 21,5 meters below the ground level above, and the altitude of the tunnel floor is 4 meters below the floor level at the entrance.

During the underground excavations has been used subsurface radar scans to detect fragmentary walls and the most propable direction the entrance would follow.

Excavations themselves followed in the beginning both the ceiling and the floor, but finally the ceiling alone. This has caused, that the floor of the tunnel is at the end horizontal and may be some distance above the real floor level.

Radar scans had been made on the hill top to detect the Temple Cupola (1990) and the Round Room (1991). Results were encouraging showing, that there exists underground structures from 15 to 25 meters below the ground.

In 1992 was done extensive radar scans at the site by German mining company DMT.

In 1995 has been made a new radar scannig , and the scanner material is here available to look at as colour scanner images.

The site topography and the scanning lines are available.

Note: In the Topography the X-axis leads approximately Eastwards and the Y-axix Northwards."

----Amazing!!!

I have slowly started going through the site indicated by you and feel it to be very much informative.

I do not find anything much strange therein, as to me it appears to be either similar or parallel to the ancient Indian scriptures. I strongly suggest that in the world of epics, folklores and saga, both may have some remote connections of the prehistoric past. Both of them describe the antiquity of millions of years and cross in to the zone of forbidden archeology.

As; PIRUET = Purohit = Priest

So; RUSET = Risit = Risi

Risi = Saint, so RUSET = SAINT

Similarly; Russia = Risiya = Land of the Saints

Similarly; Prussia = Prak Russia = Extension of the Land of the Saints

Presently I am not getting JARLET, KARLET & TRELET branches of Vaners. Either I may not know them or these names could have arisen after the branching off of the two parallels or when I come to know them anytime in future I will inform.

Regarding the famous UUDENMAA please see the following relationship:

UUDENMAA << Udenam << Udyanam

Udyanam or Udyan = Garden

So Uudenmaa or Udyanam or Udyan or Garden may have some ancient relations with Eden. All these entities look like to be same or similar things with same or similar names.

After all, as per the Persian epics of Gilgamesh, Gilgamesh met with the immortal ante diluvian king of the sunken land (Paradise) and the name of the surviving king was Utnapistim.

Utnapistim << Udena Prastim << Udyan Prasthi

Udyan = Garden; and Prasthi = Resident

So Utnapistim = Resident of the Garden

This above may further corroborate the confirmation of UUDENMAA story with reference to the Persian angle.

Further as; UUDENMAA = Udyanam (Garden)

and also; UpaVan = Semi-Forest (Garden)

Here; VAN = Forest

As the UpaVan or Uudenmaa or Garden or Semi-Forest is to be surrounded by Forest (VAN) and as the ASER live in Uudenmaa, so the VANER live in the Forests. As the Vaners live in VAN (Forest) so they speak the “Language of the VAN (Forest)”.

ASER speak the ROOT language:

Root << (K)Root << Kroot or Krit

Kroot or Krit = Kreated (Created)

So the language of the “ancient ASER” = Kroot (Created)

Whereas the ancient language of the Indian Epics = SansKroot (Sanskrit) = Created by tradition (of Gods).

Obviously the similarities between the ancient Epics and Bock Saga should be mind boggling.

QUOTE >> Rajesh,
Here's another bit from the Bock saga for you...
... after the ice-time the Aser peoples emerged from the isolation and sent special envoys out across the planet to re-connect the earlier populations with their origins.
These representatives official name was "Hanuman" in the ROT(root) language.
Comment? << UNQUOTE

What a coincidence? The primordial Monkey (totem) or Vaner God “Hanuman” is most popular and venerated throughout all the villages and cities of India.

Hanuman was the Son of God of Air “Marut”. His mother was the Vaner princess “Anjani”.

Hanuman = Hanu + Man

Hanu = Jaw; Man = Proud of

So; Hanuman = Proud of Jaw

Immediately after his birth the child Hanuman was hit on his jaw by the thunderbolt of God Indra. His jaw although got distorted a bit, could absorb the impact of the great weapon, so the Saints (Risis or Ruset) named him as Hanuman.

Hanuman became the Chief General of God Ram and the Forces of Autochthon in their war against the Atlantis proper and Srilanka. I suspect that this war brought to the end of Atlantis and Ice Age.

Hanuman is considered to be purely celibate, theologically immortal and still alive today.

The ROT (root) language also connects with China!

Are you familiar with PI pronounced BI (say BEE), the carved stone circles sometimes made of jade, flat and like a donut or torus.

In ROT:

P---The pool of sperm
I---Beginning and end/"i" represents the ... with the dot of sperm at the top.

B--(sound) To be
I---Beginning and end

Then:
K---The middle caste or J---The highest caste (Karlet and Jarlet:"et" means branch or family)
I---(see above)
N---North star(above North Pole/Origin)Knowledge
G---Is giving/ The ground

The circle of the PI then is also:

O---(say OOH) The Sun/Energy of the Sun to make things grow.

As in Odin (OO-

D---Day=light
I---Beginning and End
N---North Star/Knowledge

E---Sperm bank/all sperm knowledge=Oak tree
D---Day=light
E---(see above)
N---(see above)

UUDENMAA:
U---Original or Origin
D---Day/Light
E---Sperm bank (see above)
N---North star/Knowledge
M---The Moon/King and Queen together/two sides
A---Aser/The First People

Uu-den-maa was the Land or County or Shire around the city of Hel and was the center of the Ring-lands.

H---The Center/Complete=Whole or Holy
E---Sperm bank/All sperm knowledge=Oak tree
L---The Law People make/The flow between things

Also it was known as AS-HEL:
A---Aser/The first People
S---The sun and mouth=All that originated from the sun

When migrating south they established HEL-AS (Hellas)

It is wonderful that he made such an indelible impression in the Indian sub-continent.

QUOTE >> The top of the pyramid was formed by the Bock-Family (Piruet) which consisted of PER ( The Allfather), and ELLA (The Earthmother), BOCK and SVAN who created at least 12 sons and 7 daughters. The first son was RA (Ers), the first daughter MAYA (Maj). They became King and Queen of the family when they were 27 years old. They did not make any children, nor did the following ten brothers and 6 sisters. When the 12th son became 27 years old he took over the position of his father and became the new Bock who again begot 12 sons and 7 daughters with a new SVAN -choosen under the Vaner. << UNQUOTE

The BOCK Saga of creation seems to be a very well orchestrated musical symphony.

Before creation there was only a BOCK (= Speech) accompanied with SVAN (SVAR = Sound).

This symphony (could have) released the bonds of gravity and resonantly stirred the micro sized super compressed matter in to the fireball of a Big Bang.

The result were the 12 sons or RAga (Tunes) and 7 daughters or Maya (Acts of Illusions = Arts). Also this 7 can be the number of the days of the week and 12 can be number of signs of the zodiac. 27 can be the number of Naxatras (Constellations) that need to be crossed before reentry in to a fresh cycle. So coming of the fresh BOCK and then RA.

PER is the same as Tosharic variation of God HAR. Incidentally “Toshar or Tushar” translates as “Snow”. Does it mean that the abundance of snow phonetically changes the name of the God? And the responsibility is framed on the shoulders of a soft consonant “H” stopping ultimately on an unaspirated voiceless stop “P”.

ELA-VARTA is the ringland where at the peak of Mt. Meru, the God El (Har) resides and theologically rules over the ringland.

To me it appears to be coming from the mouth and instruments of Gandharva Gods.

"The Hindus say that it was Brahma who gave them Sanskrit, which is based on Devanagari, meaning "holy script." [Veta] means to know in Rot, [gana] (naga backwards) is script, the same as Japanese hiragana, so the Vedas are the "knowledge of the Aser."
The Bock Saga then is not at all unique in its claim to be the original source of language or writing; almost all ancient nations had a tradition that they once possessed sacred writings in a long lost language, the Mayans, Japanese and Runic users amongst them. The "urrunen" theory runs parallel to the Saga in that it holds that it is the source of all Mediterranean alphabets, including Phoenician. Studies of the Norse peoples' Runic characters and Celtic symbols have found that the symbols appear to have served sacred and mystical purposes for hundreds of years before there is any evidence of their being used for written language. They are said to have magic powers, and this is supported by the linguistic evidence of the Gothic word runa, meaning secrecy, or mystery. Parallel to this is the oral nature of the Saga - remember, only the Bock family was supposedly cognizant of its origins. In Hebrew 'rune' means a song, or to sing, and the ancient Jews maintained that their Cabala was revealed by God to Moses and was transmitted verbally, it being too sacred to be written. Similarly the Brahmins are not permitted to recite, but only to sing the Vedas. As magic is simply that which is not understood, comprehension of any process removes its numinosity. Could it be that the Bock Saga is a preservation of some form of mathematical or geometrical knowledge that has been lost, but that appeared so spectacular to early mankind that it appeared to be magical?
Certainly, the many Garden of Eden myths found around the world "see mankind, over recent millennia, as having degenerated from root-races and cultures of great spiritual and technological development, which flowered in the Golden Age of antiquity, and were destroyed to be reborn (perhaps many times) in aeons more distant than the limitations of today's science would have us believe."

"Today, in Japan, there is a Shinto priest called Yoshimi Takeuchi who claims that his family has been the guardian of the Golden Dragon Shrine for over four thousand years. Among the shrine's sacred treasures are various artifacts, allegedly given by the Imperial court, including pottery believed to be 20,000 years old, and documents which he claims: "will prove that the origins of the five races of the world are one and the same." Also he says there are stones, the original tablets of Moses' Ten Commandments, which contain ancient Japanese writings remarkable similar to that of Hebrew. In fact, according to Takeuchi, ancient emperors developed over two hundred sets of characters which are said to be the basis for the ancient Sumerian, Egyptian, Greek, Sanskrit and Hebrew languages."

I would love to find more info on this....

Also:

N---North Star/Knowledge
A---Aser/the First People
G---Is giving/the Ground
A--

V---Vaner Van=One/One people/One language
E---Sperm bank/All sperm knowledge=Oak tree
D---Day=Light
A---Aser/the First People

HIRAGANA:

H---Is the center/complete=whole or holy
I---Beginning and End
R---Feminine-Masculine/Yin-Yang=Chi?
A---(see above)
Etc.....

Exuse me for saying it, but Your comment to my last reply (see above) was a bit funny. The reason why I notified this issue at all - on this thread - was your previous comment, on theis very same thread, - of july 4th stating, quote; "Commingling of monkeys and nanny-goats is an important element in the Bok saga."

There is obviously an incredible lot to be said, asked and answered about the Bock-Saga. Especially since it contains series of causual information about the essential points and themes from all other known myths and legends. Even more it does explain phenomenons that only recently have been exposed and explained by moedern science - such as the discussion about our genetical substantiation - and it`s origin.

According to the Bock-Saga this kind of historical counsciousness as well as a wide scientific knowledge used to be common knowledge - as a basic part of the Atlantean culture. This culture apeared first time about 9.500 years ago as their land - inside the Baltics - arose from the the enormous amounts of frozen water that left the Baltic Ocean after a millions of years long ice-time. Thus we may find the legends of the "Shiny", the "Sea People", the "Atlanteans", etc., occuring in all the southern continents before 9.000 BP.

Best regards,

I too apologize. Actually earlier I never took Bock Saga seriously on the grounds of genealogical incoherence implicit therein. I could get to it only when I felt that it might have some inherent totem connections. Even then I felt that it could have limited applications. I had to proceed only when I found that it might have an ancient and true content depicted by the Gandharva Gods dwelling in the icy northern twilight zones.

And problem with freetime thinkers is that they can start acting as film critiques in the serious board room meetings or can initiate boardroom proceedings during a film show.

So respected rockessence:

Bock saga can be continued on any new or other existing thread as you suggest. Albeit I have to maintain my slow and steady pace due to my own limitations, that can be sometimes disturbing. So as you wish.

Respected Riven: Thanx for the tolerance again.

By all means though,rockessence or boreas or my good colleague Magii Rajesh, feel free to post what is relevant to 570 bC and the Bock Saga if you like as long as it relates to 570 bC, which there is so much to post as yet. I enjoy the mystery surrounding this Saga,though I don't have the time right now to fully understand it. Like Atlantis though,the bits and pieces will add up.

I'm really hoping to divulge the life of Solon his friends,where he lived, what was going on around this time, and most of all where on earth Dropides lived and where he could have hidden the original copy of the story. With thought also to who may have written a copy of it.

My point exactly is the wish to get a true source to Solons stories revealed. So that we ALL may have a look into the realities behind this - and other - legends, describing and telling about our origin as species, culture and future...

I have been impressed by the amount of knowledge shown by you and others, and I have learned to acknowledge and respect a good number of the participants on this forum. And I do think that most participants here have a genuine wish to get REAL answers to many a vital question about our ancient past. Even if the answers still shivers at the cutting edge of contemporary science...

The most incredible thing about the refered Bock Saga is that it contains rows of information about all well-known myths, legends and folklore tails - connecting them all into a comprehensive, logic and still very exstensive rib-work. After using 15 years of critical investigation I found this darn thing to be true.

Thus I intended to make you all aware of this simple conclusion - by refering to this genuine material - which is the ONLY known source of information known that refers, explains and completes Solons story about the Atlanteans and the cultrue known as Atlantis.

King Osorkon was located at Bubastis, while Tefnakhte himself is now described as 'prophet of Neith, lady of Sais, and setem-priest of Ptah', i.e. as the principal priest at both Sais and Memphis. http://www.touregypt.net/hdyn24.htm

This is around 730 bC.

Tefnakhte seems to have been left to his own devices, and a unique stele in the Athens Museum presents him as king making a donation of land to the goddess Neith of Sais in his eighth year . Manetho does not mention him, but Diodorus and Plutarch name Tnephachthos as the father of Bochchoris and as an advocate of the simple life. We have already noted what Manetho has to tell about Bochchoris, who for other Greek writers was proverbial as a judge and a lawgiver. Under the name Bekenrinef he appears on a stele from the Serapeum which records the burial of an Apis-bull in his sixth year, that year will have been his last if Manetho is to be trusted.

Among these latter was Neko of Sais, not improbably descendant of Pi'ankhy's adversary Tefnakhte.

The 'Master of Shipping' Samtowetefnakhte was in charge of the vessels.
http://www.touregypt.net/hdyn26.htm

"the most important priests of Amun, with the pliant Mentemhe at their head,"

Psammetichus was himself half a Libyan

Neko1 succeeded by his son Neko II in 610 BC.
Phoenician ships sent by him to circumnavigate Africa succeeded in doing so, returning through the Pillars of Hercules in his third year

the exiled priest Ezekiel testifies to a siege of Tyre by Nebuchadrezzar lasting thirteen years without his ever succeeding in capturing the island state.

Amasis marries Ladice from Cyrene 570bC

The archaeological site of the city is in the western Egyptian delta (modern day Gharbiyah province). There is a village on the site called Sa el-Hagar, a name which combines the ancient name 'Sa' with the Arabic word for 'stone'. It means 'Sa the stone' and is a good indication that there was once an impressive city here with many stone buildings. What happened there ?A five thousand year-old wooden label with the name of King Aha shows the symbol of Sais inside a wooden compound. Some Egyptologists think that this shows that Sais was an important cult centre in northern Egypt right at the very beginning of Egyptian history, around 3100 BC. The cult emblem shows a shield-shaped object with two arrows crossed through it and is usually perched on a stand. The object may be a shield, or it could originally have been an animal skin hung up and used as target practice. It is the emblem of the goddess of Sais called Neith.Which gods had cults at Sais ? Neith (above) may originally have been a hunting goddess who could bring good hunting to hunters out in the the desert margins of the Western delta. She is usually depicted wearing a flat-topped crown with a coil element at the front and a tall projection at the back (below). This was to become the Red Crown and symbolised all of Lower Egypt (the north). When Egypt was united into one kingdom, the Kings invented a crown combining the White Crown of Upper Egypt and the Red Crown of Lower Egypt. Neith was a very powerful goddess and was also regarded as a creator. This is rare in Egypt because creation deities are usually male. She was, too, the mother of Sobek, the crocodile god associated with the fertility and power of the Nile. In the Late Period (from 1000 BC onwards), her temple was a centre of pilgrimage. It was famous for its linen cloth which is appropriate for this part of Egypt. Egyptian cloth was most often linen which is made from a plant called flax. This would grow very happily in the marshy, watery area of the Nile delta. The Neith temple had craftsmen and women who wove the cloth into very fine material, often almost see through. They had different grades of material, but the best was 'royal' cloth which was fine and transparent.There were other important gods who had temples at Sais too.Atum, another creator god, was associated with Neith. He was not really her consort, but more of a male-power counterpart.Osiris was also popular at Sais. He was the Egyptian god of the dead who ruled over the spirits of those people reborn in the afterlife. He had a special form at Sais where he was called 'Osiris Hemag'. The meaning of his surname is a bit mysterious, but seems to be something like 'Osiris made of carnelian' (a semi-precious stone, orange in colour). Usually Osiris was shown wrapped up like a mummy, but Osiris Hemag had bandages decorated with semi-precious stones. He would have looked spectacular - glistening, shimmering and gleaming in the afterlife sunlight. Many people came to make offerings to Osiris at Sais as an act of pilgrimage.Were there any people at Sais ?Sais was also a powerful political and economic centre. We do not know much about its role in Egypt's early history, but in about 727 BC a man called Tefnakhte set himself up there as the 'Great Chief of the West' and claimed to rule the whole of the Western delta. This meant he would have controlled the agriculture in the area, the sea trade down the western branch of the Nile, the coast, the linen industry at Sais, the temple cults at Sais, the resources of the Wadi Natrun from where mummifying material came, and possibly the trade routes to the oases. The Oases areas were especially famous for their wine, so Tefnakhte seems to have known what he was doing.Was Tefnakhte a real king ?Tefnakhte was really only a local ruler, but his descendants under Psamtek, who also came from Sais, eventually claimed to rule the whole of Egypt. This means that for 139 years Sais was the capital of this great civilization.Who were these Saites ?The Saite family had continuous problems with the Assyrians who eventually invaded Egypt, the Thebans who disliked being ruled by northerners but they had some help in the form of Greek mercenaries. These men were soldiers who were hired to guard important cities in Egypt such as Sais and also a trading city called Naukratis. They would also fight for their employers if necessary.Many stories exist about the Saite kings but one of the most amazing things about them is that they were very interested in Egyptology! They wanted to show that they were worthy, true kings of Egypt and successors of their illustrious ancestors. Already by then the Pyramids at Giza were almost 2000 years old, so there was much to study. The Saite kings copied artistic styles and types of statue from the past so that they could demonstrate their devotion and piety. They commissioned many statues of themselves, restored temple buildings - an example followed by their officials - and most of all they made Sais one of the greatest cities in the known world. A Greek visitor called Herodotus was amazed by the size of the statues, the temples and the richness of the palaces he saw in the city.What did the Saite kings do ?Psamtek I He may have been the first to used mercenary troops to defeat the other Egyptian princes. He sent his eldest daughter, Nitokris, to Thebes to be an important priestess there. This meant he had some influence in the south of Egypt, for she was an influential landholder. He reigned for 54 years, a truly dynastic founderNekau He sent a fleet of Phoenician ships to circumnavigate Africa and had a lot of problems with the Assyrians and the Medes (Persians). He reigned 15 years.Psamtek II Nefer-ib-ra P-sam-tekHe only reigned for 6 years, but was responsible for the construction of a huge number of monuments. He may have sent an expedition to Nubia, but was compelled to direct most of his attention to the wars to the north-east. He sent his daughter, Ankhnesneferibre, to Thebes to be the new 'God's Wife of Amun' as successor to Nitokris.Apries He may have been deeply involved in the wars in Syria and over Jerusalem, but he definitely did send an army against the Greek colony of Cyrene (on the North African coast). The Egyptians were soundly beaten and Apries lost his throne. He reigned for 19 years.Amasis He took power after the failure of Apries who may have been murdered by the Saite mob. He made friendly overtures to other Mediterranean countries and made the Greek traders trade only from Naukratis, where they could be contained. He seems to have been very astute and was remembered well in Herodotus' story of Amasis' liking for Falernian wine. He ruled for 44 years.Psamtek III He was a bit unlucky as the Persians invaded Egypt in 525 BC just after he became king. After a great battle at Pelusium, the Egyptians retreated to Memphis where they surrendered after a siege.We don't know what happened to Sais then, but Cambyses, the Persian king, is said to have destroyed many Egyptian temples.As Sais was the capital of the Saite kings they lived there and were also buried in tombs within the Neith Temple complex.What happened after this ?Sais continued to be the centre of a bishopric in the Christian period but by the 17th century had become a small village.Why is it important ?Egyptologists don't know very much about the delta part of Egypt and about cities and how they were organised. They don't like such gaps so they go and try to fill them in. Manfred Bietak has been working hard in the Eastern delta for the last thirty years and has made some very important discoveries about ancient Egypt and its towns. There is still a gap in the west however.We want to understand how cities could come to be important and the kind of factors which mean it was possible. We can understand some of the individuals who made things happen, such as Psamtek I and Amasis, but we would also like to know how the River Nile affected a city's fortunes, how the Egyptian focus on the west may have influenced the eventual founding of Alexandria, how the city of Sais developed from 3000 BC onward as a cult centre, the way in which Sais worked as a pilgrimage centre, the types of industries and trading which happened there, how the royal obsession with the past affected ordinary people, the forms of Saite pottery, the shape and plans of the temples, the location of the city's harbours, settlements, canals and so on.My personal favourite quest is for the Sacred Lake at Sais. This Lake would have been a place where rituals were performed and also have provided water for washing in the temple. We know that the lake existed because Herodotus saw the ceremony of the lighted lamps performed on it, and also there is a statue of the man who built the lake. He gives us an indication of its exact size and location. It would be great to match up the accounts, the statue text and the archaeology! What’s going on there now ?The Egypt Exploration Society are sponsoring a survey and archaeological assessment of the site for future work. Visitors to Sais are often disappointed when they come to the site at the lack of things to see. However, as our work is showing, there is much to discover about Sais. Sometimes the visitor needs a good imagination and sometimes a lot of scientific help. But we believe the Royal City of Sais will begin to yield its secrets.
http://www.dur.ac.uk/penelope.wilson/sais.html

The Egypt Exploration Society Work at Sais

Short preliminary reports have been published, and a book called The Survey of Sais is in the process of being written.

Penny Wilson, ‘Sais: Surveying the Royal City,’ Egyptian Archaeology, 12 (1998), pp.3-6.

Penny Wilson, ‘The Survey of Sais 1997,’ Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, 84, (1998), pp.2-4.

Penny Wilson, ‘The Survey of Sais 1998,’ in Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, 85, (1999), pp.1-4.

Penny Wilson, ‘The Survey of Sais 1999,’ in Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, 86 (2000), pp.1-5.

Penny Wilson, ‘The Survey of Sais 2000-1,’ in Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, 87 (2001), pp.1-8.

Penny Wilson, ‘Sais and its Secrets,’ Egyptian Archaeology, 18, (2001), pp.3-5.

Penny Wilson and Greg Gilbert, Pigs, Pots and Postholes : Prehistoric Sais, Egyptian Archaeology, 21 (2002), pp.12-13.

Penny Wilson, ‘ Recent work at Sais (Sa el Hagar)’, Egyptology at the Dawn of the Twenty-First Century. Proceedings of the Eighth International Congress of Egyptologists, Cairo March 2000, vol. 1 : Archaeology, eds. Z. Hawass and L. Pinch Brock (American University in Cairo Press 2003), pp. 568-573.

Penny Wilson, ‘The Survey of Sais 2002,’ in Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, 88 (2002), pp.2-6.

Other scholarly books and articles about Sais and related matters

Ramadan El-Sayed, Documents relatifs à Sais et à ses divinités, BdE 69 (Cairo: IFAO, 1975).

Ramadan El-Sayed, La Déesse Neith de Saïs, 2 vols., BdE 86/1, 86/2 (Cairo: IFAO, 1982).

Labib Habachi, ‘Saïs and its Monuments,’ ASAE 42 (1943), pp. 369-407.

Herodotus, The Histories, Book 2, translated by A.H. Godley, The Loeb Classical Library, (London: W. Heinemann 1966).

François Leclère, Les villes de basse égypte au Ière millenaire av. J.-C. Analyse archéologique et historique de la topographie urbaine, forthcoming.

Dominic Mallet, Le culte de Neit à Sais, (Paris 1888).

Susan Woodhouse, ‘The sun god, his four bas and the four winds in the sacred district at Saïs: the fragment of an Obelisk (BM EA 1512),’ in ed. S. Quirke, The Temple in Ancient Egypt, (London 1997), pp. 132-151.

François Leclère, 'La Ville de Sais à la Basse Époque,' Égypte Afrique et Orient, 28 (Feb. 2003), pp.13-38.

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Work was begun in the SCA Offices in Tanta to examine the documentation and registers of the EAO/SCA as kept there. The documentation for Sa el Hagar has been put together in a huge library of folders and dates back to about 1960, though there are some older pre-Revolution documents. Every involvement of the EAO in the village is documented including their excavation reports for their work in the last 20 years. There is a fascinating wealth of material and we began listing the excavations carried out at Sa el Hagar and material found in the excavations as recorded in the Registers. This proved very useful in determining areas which have been excavated and the kinds of objects from the work. My work here was made possible by the good offices of the Chief Inspectors at Tanta and by the translating abilities of Ms Fatma Ragab Kamal.

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So I thought you might like to see a nice necklace from Tutankhamun's reign (1333-1323 bC), showing two Thoth Baboons and a blue Scarab under a Carnelian Sun.
http://touregypt.net/Featurestories/picture05062004.htm

Don't forget to think about Orichalchum

What I like about the story of Atlantis coming from Sais is that it adds credibility to the antiquity of the story, because Sais goes back to the 1st Dynasty also, or 3100 bC. This seems to clarify that the Egyptian Priest (historian expert), knew that 3000 years had past anyway.

The Temple of Neith in Sais was said to be comparable to the Temple of Karnak.

Isn't it amazing that a City and Temple of such magnitude would mysteriously disappear, like the Labyrinth near Thebes and also Alexandria.

Here is an extract about the geographical book written by Hecateus around 500 BC.
quote from: http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ancient%20Web%20Pages/108mono.html
"In Book Two, comprising the coast of Libya [Africa], from the confines of Egypt to the Pillars of Hercules [Straits of Gibraltar], one finds a mere Periplus, or coast-description. noticing many ports and small islands; while the only tribes of the interior he is known to have mentioned are the Mazyes and Zygantes - obviously the same with the Maxyes and Gyzantes of Herodotus, both of which lived within a short distance of the sea, near the Tritonian Lake.

RE:"Don't forget to think about Orichalchum"

Another highly regardable element was Electrum. The Ancient Egyptians idolized Electrum and as I have also discovered, an Etruscan Script unfolding the word Araklum.

We have some other distinctive elements in Amber and Carnelian.

As Critias mentioned that Orichalcum was once dug up out of the earth, later to be only a name, I get the feeling that Orichalcum was truly a mysterious recipe that was know by chosen intellects, sort of like the Egyptian Priesthood.

Which makes sense considering he also idealized that it was not to be found.

In short, as Orichalcum has been discussed in detail in the Orichalcum thread, I like to believe that Orichalcum was an Ancient Alchemical Secret.

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Some of the verses of Solon are also found in a collection of poetry under the name of the Megarian poet Theognis (e.g. Solon fr. 6.3-4; Thgn. 153-54, Solon fr. 13.71-76; Thgn. 227-32, etc.). It is commonly assumed that these lines were copied from a Solonian collection of poetry into the Theognidea, but I will argue that they were in fact drawn independently from a common (oral) stock of elegiac poetry, which in Megara was attributed to Theognis and in Athens to Solon. They preserve for us the kind of elegiac poetry that could be heard in sixth century Athens, but probably not the ipsissima verba of Solon.

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very interesting,hmmmmmm.

Are you saying that there is a connection in "Elektrum" to the Greek word for amber?

Also, what is "a coating of resin amber bronze"? Would that be melted amber somehow mixed with metal? Amber was mostly from the Baltic, where the Greek word for it came from (Elektron).

No, Electrum and Amber are separate.

It could be possible that Amber was melted and used as a resin coating, perhaps brushed on afterwards or mixed in with Electrum perhaps if this was possible.

Born: 427 BC in Athens, Greece
Died: 347 BC in Athens, Greece

It was claimed that Plato's real name was Aristocles, and that 'Plato' was a nickname (roughly 'the broad') derived either from the width of his shoulders, the results of training for wrestling, or from the breadth of his style, or from the size of his forehead.

Plato was the youngest son of Ariston and Perictione who both came from famous wealthy families who had lived in Athens for generations. While Plato was a young man his father died and his mother remarried, her second husband being Pyrilampes. It was mostly in Pyrilampes' house that Plato was brought up. Aristotle writes that when Plato was a young man he studied under Cratylus who was a student of Heracleitus, famed for his cosmology which is based on fire being the basic material of the universe. It almost certain that Plato became friends with Socrates when he was young, for Plato's mother's brother Charmides was a close friend of Socrates.

The Peloponnesian War was fought between Athens and Sparta between 431 BC and 404 BC. Plato was in military service from 409 BC to 404 BC

the execution of Socrates in 399 BC had a profound effect on him

Plato left Athens after Socrates had been executed and travelled in Egypt, Sicily and Italy. In Egypt he learnt of a water clock and later introduced it into Greece. In Italy he learned of the work of Pythagoras

Again there was a period of war and again Plato entered military service. It was claimed by later writers on Plato's life that he was decorated for bravery in battle during this period of his life. It is also thought that he began to write his dialogues at this time.

Plato returned to Athens and founded his Academy in Athens, in about 387 BC. It was on land which had belonged to a man called Academos, and this is where the name "Academy" came from. The Academy was an institution devoted to research and instruction in philosophy and the sciences, and Plato presided over it from 387 BC until his death in 347 BC.

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makes it clear that the popular conception of Plato as an aloof unworldly scholar, spinning theories in his study remote from practical life, is singularly wide of the mark. On the contrary, he was a man of the world, an experienced soldier, widely travelled, with close contacts with many of the leading men of affairs, both in his own city and elsewhere.

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They show the mastery of language, the power of indicating character, the sense of a situation, and the keen eye for both its tragic and its comic aspects, which set Plato among the greatest writers of the world. He uses these gifts to the full in inculcating the lessons he wants to teach.

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The dialogues do not contain Plato as a character so he does not declare that anything asserted in them are his own views. It is thought that, at least in the early dialogues, the character of Socrates expresses views that Socrates actually held.

Through these dialogues, Plato contributed to the theory of art, in particular dance, music, poetry, architecture, and drama. He discussed a whole range of philosophical topics including ethics, metaphysics where topics such as immortality, man, mind, and Realism are discussed.

In his theory of Forms, Plato rejected the changeable, deceptive world that we are aware of through our senses proposing instead his world of ideas which were constant and true.

Plato concentrated on the idea of 'proof' and insisted on accurate definitions and clear hypotheses

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... the exact sciences - arithmetic, plane and solid geometry, astronomy, and harmonics - would first be studied for ten years to familiarise the mind with relations that can only be apprehended by thought. Five years would then be given to the still severer study of 'dialectic'. Dialectic is the art of conversation, of question and answer; and according to Plato, dialectical skill is the ability to pose and answer questions about the essences of things. The dialectician replaces hypotheses with secure knowledge, and his aim is to ground all science, all knowledge, on some 'unhypothetical first principle'.

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Plato's Academy flourished until 529 AD when it was closed down by the Christian Emperor Justinian who claimed it was a pagan establishment. Having survived for 900 years it is the longest surviving university known.

Let no one unversed in geometry enter here (Academy)
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Plato.html

Archytas, the inventor of mechanical science, was a friend and correspondent of Plato.

In a recent Tribes II post I mentioned Taranto as a location for the final battle of Atlantis.
Archytas is from Taranto(Tarentum) which was known as Taras by the Greeks. It is said that it was founded by Taras, a Son of Poseidon or by Hercules.

Again we see solid evidence of Plato's character and wisdom.

Solon lived:638-559 bC (some say 539)

Sparta rules Peloponnese 650-620 bC.

Dracon was 620 bC

Amasis is in Egypt 570 bC

Pisastrus as Tyrant in Athens 561 bC.
Astyges is King of Medea
Croesus is King in Lydia

Say Solon was in Sais around 567 bC.(He stayed in Naucratis for a while).

Solon was around 42 years of age upon archonship and around 80 when he dropped his pen.
So he was around 69 years old when he was in Sais.
If we suppose he travelled for 10 years, his return would have been in time for Pisastrus around 560 bC.

So Solon was 76 years old when he returned to Athens and told Dropides who also was an archon in Athens around 593 bC.

Critias elder was 90 when he told Critias jr at 10.

Herodotus was born 484 bC
Socrates 469 bC
Plato 427 bC

Plato wrote Timaeus and Critias around 360 bC at around 67 years of age.

Socrates, I would guess, was midage when they discussed the story or around 429 bC, he died in 399 bC.
The impression "I get is that Critias Jr was younger than Socrates. Say 30.

That would mean around 470 bC, Critias Jr was 10 and Critias elder would have been born around 540 bC.

The story returned to Athens around 560 bC.

This would mean that Dropides must also have been quite elderly also when he told Critias elder, who like Critias, must have been quite young. There seems to be a margin of +/- 20 years though in the chronologies.

In 560 bC, the inscriptions were still at Sais, inscribed in the Temple of Neith's sacred registers.

Do you suppose these sacred registers were a papyrus book or pillars?

We know they were inscribed on pillars, question being is there a papyrus book also?

I would guess there should definitely be a papyrus book somewhere.

People know destructions took place and writing was very commonplace then.

What is the relationship between Tanis and Sais?
http://www.specialtyinterests.net/dyn26.html#sais

Since Sais is supposed to have been the capital of the 26th Dynasty and Tanis that of the 19th Dynasty kings we must occupy ourselves with the identity of these capitals. Modern history books show Tanis in the eastern (Rosetta branch) and Sais in the western delta (Saitic branch). Almost 150 years ago Lepsius placed Sais in the western delta at a place called `Sa el Hagar', a name quite similar to the name of a village which occupies the place of Tanis (San el Hagar). At the Rosetta branch location of Sais no ruins of royal residences were found. Some suggest because one ruler called himself the `Ruler of the West' Sais must have been made reference to. In reality Sais and Tanis are separated only about 60 km as the crow flies, hardly requiring a ruler to change his location at Tanis to rule the West. But where do ancient authors locate Sais and Tanis? Herodotus wrote about Sais:

"... for the Nile divides ... into 3 branches, of which one trends eastward and is known as the mouth of Pelusium, and another trends westward and is called the mouth of Canopus. There remains the third branch which, coming down from the southward toward the tip of the Delta, flows straight on and cuts it in two on its course toward the sea. This branch, issuing at what is called the mouth of Sebennytus, is neither the least in volume, nor the least famous of the three. In addition to these there are two other mouths, the Saitic and Mendesian, which split off from the Sebennytic and so run into the sea." [Herodotus, Bk II, Sec. 17] We notice that Herodotus mentions the `Saitic Branch' where the `Tanitic Branch' should be and says the `Saitic Branch' splits off from the `Sebennytic Branch'. This situation does not fit the `Rosetta Branch' along whose shore Sais is supposed to be according to conventional books. We learn from the geographer Strabo, who differentiates between Sais and Tanis, that the Saitic and Tanitic branches are the same. [Strabo, `Geography', XVII, I, 20] Therefore, making Sais and Tanis into two separate places is very questionable. In conventional chronology Tanis was the capital in 19th Dynasty times dated to the 13th century BC, and so we read "Hebron had been built 7 years before Zoan", where Zoan is the Biblical Tanis. [Numbers 13:22]
In 26th Dynasty times according to conventional chronology Sais was the capital and by what name does the Bible call Egypt's capital in about 700 BC? It is still called `Zoan', Isaiah 19:11, 13; 30:4. Only about 100 years later Ezekiel wrote: "I will lay Pathros waste, set fire to Zoan and inflict punishment on Thebes. I will pour out my wrath on Pelusium, the stronghold of Egypt...."Ezekiel 30:14, 15. Here we learn that Tanis is mentioned in the Bible as the capital of Egypt when, according to both the conventional and revised plan, Sais was its capital. In Sais was a temple of Maat. As an aside, one of the priests officiating there had the name Maatysherit Sithator. Was there a temple to Maat at Tanis? A question not yet answered.
We have every reason to conclude that Sais and Tanis were the same city location and that is why no ruins were found at `Sa el Hagar', the Sais location of Lepsius and we read statements like "The Delta site of Sais (modern Sa el-Hagar) is heavily waterlogged and has never been properly investigated. Although it is thought to be the royal burial ground, it is strange that little evidence remains of the royal burials themselves apart from a few ushabtis, most of whose known provenances are other than Sais. The ten ushabtis in the name of Psammetichus are difficult to assign specifically to one or the other king of that name. There is also a splendid ushabti and a heart scarab of Necho II, three ushabtis of Apries and six of Amasis." [P. Clayton, `Chronicle of the Pharaohs', p. 197]