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Author Topic:   More than one Atlantis
Solon12
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posted 03-23-2004 15:02     Click Here to See the Profile for Solon12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why is it that everyone wants to 'own' Atlantis? The resolution of this dilema is simple.

Take any Quaternary Journal set and look up the Ice-Age, now very precisely researched. Even a cursory glance will find many freezes and melts. A slightly more thorough check will find evidence of ocean sea-levels during these epochs. A very determined search will show that Cambridge University, Britain, has actually a CDROM of worldwide coastal maps with sea levels 300 ft below todays levels. Unfortunately I have not been able to get this - if anyone does please post references.

But with some other data sources, one can piece together the world coastlines.

Everyone knows of Beringia being dry where today Arctic sea floods. 25,000BP a community thrived near the Sea of Okotsk - why would anyone migrate north to a glacier free but darned cold region?

Some know of the village off Sinop, Turkey in the Black Sea at 200 ft depth flooded when the Bosphorous burst through with salt water over the fresh water lake around 7100 BC. What does that make of the Neolithic revolution just after in Turkey?

Some know of the two 5 mile planned cities off the Gulf of Cambray (spelling?) west coast India, found by sonar in 2000 by a British team at 70 meters. How about evidence of a dam kilometers wide on a river that ran from the Himalayas way off todays shoreline?

Anyone even look briefly at Indonesia with 350 ft lower sea levels? One sees a large dry area. How large?

How about the Celtic Shelf 9000 BC? It is in front of Gibralter if you use wind/currents to sail - not a power boat. How large is it? what were Britain & Ireland at that time - a single landmass covered in ice, with a large plain. The Gulf Stream then was apparently different and the shelf was milder than expected. Did Plato mean Peninsula-plus-canal or Island?

The Quaternary journal even mentions "hyper flooding events" caused by huge glacier slippage and waves that left traces in the Scottish mountains. How about the Ice Age lake 'Lawrentius Sea' that burst out into the Atlantic with catastrophic waves inundating the Celtic Shelf?

Plato was talking about one of many coastal - based sea-people's settlements.

All of these were so devastated by the Holocene ice-melt that we have a huge archaelogical 'horizon'. The melt was devastating.

Another thing - methane 'shale' deposits highly sensitive to icean temperature - the oil industry documented at least 1 catastrophic methane 'boil off' they put at 8000BC off Norway. Could the gas have exploded? (fire and flood).

The Carribean at 350 ft lower levels must be extremely interesting. The 1200ft deep "structures" are simply too deep. Anyone look for 300ft deep structures?

Was Plato's particular Atlantis actually the Ice Age Atlantic coast from Carribean to Celtic Shelf? A true ocean spanning culture?

Just one other thing, the Sphinx is likely 9000 BC (water weathering and Leo Equinox Heliacal rising). Solon was right - Egypt had records back 8000 years before him, if you understand precession.

Apologies if this has been already discussed.

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Brig
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posted 03-23-2004 16:37     Click Here to See the Profile for Brig     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As we have stated so many times before,"Thats Atlantis...All Over. We have a good half dozen "discoverers of Atlantis"; the only problem is they have discovered their "Atlantis's all over the globe. We all still await definitive proof.

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atalante
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posted 03-23-2004 19:08     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The key to finding "Atlantis" is not just a matter of finding bare land.

You have to demonstrate that food was available in a diet which was balanced nutritionally.

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Daffy Duck
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posted 03-23-2004 21:13     Click Here to See the Profile for Daffy Duck     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Solon12, good post. Not exactly what you're after, but akin to that "if you look hard enough.."

Relative Sea-Level DataBase

Tushingham, A.M. and W.R.Peltier, 1993, Relative Sea Level Database.
IGBP PAGES/World Data Center-A for Paleoclimatology Data Contribution
Series # 93-016. NOAA/NGDC Paleoclimatology Program, Boulder CO, USA.


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Boreas
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posted 03-23-2004 21:38     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The geophysical, hydrological and climatical changes have sure been many througout the geonomical age of the earth.

Some of the major have obviously been aflicting biological life all over the globe.

Today we are starting to get a quite clear picture on some of these incidents, - at least the ones close in time, such as the ones you mention.

Moreover I see geological data as the more reliable and significant to get a more accurate picture of how our world looked like some 10.-50.000 years ago, as "modern man" started appearing in Europe.

Especially intereting is the time of transition, when ice-time ended, just about 10.000 years back. As you mention the end of ice-time was actually more dramatic than generally known. Today we clearly understand that it wasn't a silent melting-process that took the last ice-sheets away, but SLIDING.

Ice-time started some million years ago, when a cataclysmic incident made huge masses of water (damp) arise into the atmosphere. The damp was soon consentrated aroung the poles until it started condensing, creating two enormous caps, of "solid water", one on each pole. We know something about the size of this caps, such as their MINIMUM sizes. But still our leading glaciologists are not setled on the question of the exstensive maximum of these sheets.

Concerning the northern cap we know that it has reaced down to the 40th altitude for most of N-America. One should expect that to be the case also for Northern Asia (Russia), but here the indications are more vague, and the professionals tend to draw the line further north. In Europe we find a somewhat complex picture, probably because of the Gulf-stream. Still we know that also the entire Eurasia was completly inhabitable north of the 4oth paralell, i.e. north of the great mountain-ridges across Eurasia, from the Pyrenees to the Himalayas. Thus the Eurasian ice-sheet must have exstended down to at least the 45th altitude. We also know that the galciers where connected over the Atlantic ocean and around the globe, creating the northern "cap".

At this point in time the ocean-levels must have been at their minimum. How less than today we have not understood yet. But we do know that mild winds and sunshine MELT ice, - at a speed congruent to temperature.
So for some million years the sun - helped by the heat from the earth itself - have been melting these caps. Over time the melting slowly returned the major part of these enormous masses to the ocean.

But at times this procss have been interupted by tectonic movements and termodynamics, normally speeding the melting process. The last of these incidents happened some more than 40.000 years ago. At this point the Gulf-stream had already been eating its way through the Baltic Sea, to reach the White Sea/Kara Sea, - dividing the glacier of Fenno-Scandia from the rest of Eurasia. 30.000 years later the same gulf-stream had made another passage along the Scandinavian west-coast, dividing the cap ones more.

Since the cap was broken, so was also the geographical staibility of all its parts, however big they where. And they all stearted to SLIDE, from the higer to the lower. So in a few centuries we had an enormous amount of ice cliding into the oceans all over the place.

The complete Fenno-Scandic sheet (at the time still 3-5 km thick...) broke in two, and then many, along the Scandinavian ridge. Then they started to slide, some east to the Baltic, some west to the Atlantic Ocean, at a speed of 16-20 km a year (!). As you mention, the same thing happened on the British Isles, as well as in parts of Russia, creating the Caspian and the Black Seas as sweet-waters.

Now this sudden movement of all this frozen water made two effects. First the ice falling straigth into the oeans, at tremendous amounts of mass. Second the movements sharply rised the speed of melting of the remaining inland-ice, creating a number of rivers larger than anyone exisitng today...

At the end of these dramatic changes the ocean-level had risen with more than 100 metres in a "instant moment" (geologically). The biggest impact took probably just about a century, but still we recon some 500 years from "the break" to "the make", when the present ocean-level was stabilized.

Shortly after do we find the first human populations sailing, skiing and dog-sledging all over the ice-free Scandinavia. And Baltikum. At the same time both agriculture and the "Atlanteans" appear in the Mediterranean Ocean. Not to forget "The Teachers" appearing in Meso-America, with a similar set of domestic attributions.

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dhill757
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posted 03-23-2004 21:41     Click Here to See the Profile for dhill757     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
But the land would make the best start. You have to remember, no matter how much linguistic evidence there is, unless we have evidence of an actual physical place that resembles the one Plato spoke of in his dialogues, the world at large will never accept anything as Atlantis. Only land and ruins would put the debate to rest, other than that someone will still be discovering Atlantis every year. Does anyone have the map of the Ice Age world that was spoken of? That would be a great place to start.

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Solon12
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posted 03-24-2004 03:19     Click Here to See the Profile for Solon12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Archaelogists have not yet got used to getting their feet wet. Working at 300 ft depths requires expensive technology such as Alvin used to find the Titanic, and recently used off Sinop in the Black Sea.
That is understandable.

What is amazing is the wall between Oceanography and Archaeology. The former consider it common knowledge that lots of dry land submerged, and all of it coastline.

Another amazing oversight is the question of food - the highest protein diet is to be found at coastlines and especially river/coastline systems. There is evidence that the post-glacial warming was for a couple of kilo-years warmer than during the later Neolithic, with more plentifull sea-food.

Only remember the rivers of the melt-era were moving much more water than now, and were emptying into coastlines way offshore today. The Sarawati in India does not even exist today, but may have been 10 km wide then!

Sea peoples of that time lost their entire coastal region, and must have become scattered, with what we call land-based settlements surviving far from the inundation. It is as if the 'cities' vanished leaving outlying villages or hunting camps, which we call then the beginning of civilization!

Plato's Atlantis city submerged, and isolated inland pockets of were left with no cultural center, except Egypt which took a long time to recover.

It is highly likely the Phoenician sea-peoples of 1600BC are decendants of a very ancient tradition. Ironically Ekhanaton defeated them, likely a war between cousins, but not before they destroyed the post-Illiad Greek civilization.

Odd that Plato said Atlantis declared war on Athens, lost it, were inundated. Much later the "sea-peoples" destroyed Macedonian Greek culture, which had crippled itself with Trojan wars. A long memory perhaps? Memory implies civilization and timekeeping (precession is the biggest clock available) which implies there is much more to 'sea-peoples' that commonly accepted.

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Solon12
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posted 03-24-2004 04:48     Click Here to See the Profile for Solon12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As regards the Ice-age cause. Besides the Milankovitsch astronomical orbital changes a very important contribution from wind systems has been recently pointed out : the Cascades in North America show records of numerous Ice Ages, as the range elevates slowly modifying the entire northern hemisphere weather systems.

Another interesting effect is cloud-cover. Nucleating water droplets require either "pollution" from volcanoes etc, or cosmic ionizing radiation. More cloud means less solar surface heating. The impact of cosmic radiation is of course directly affected by geomagnetism, but also by the solar wind which can sweep it effectively away. Solar activity plus extra-solar cosmic radiation sources interacting directly affect surface weather. The tiniest of effects then could produce the massive ice-sheet. Currently the most intense cosmic source is the Crab Nebula (of Giga eVolt and also Tera eV events). As far as I know it (a so-called Supernova) started around 1060 AD, recorded on tapestries. Could another have occurred much earlier dramatically altering cloud cover? Or could the Crab hava had a very busy past 2 million years?

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Solon12
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posted 03-24-2004 05:14     Click Here to See the Profile for Solon12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Daffy Duck,
thanks for the reference. However I can only access this releated reference. Seems the data would need graphic processing to make a map.
http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/paleocean/relative_sea_level/

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Solon12
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posted 03-24-2004 06:26     Click Here to See the Profile for Solon12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Has anyone seen this reference to a Celtic Shelf Atlantis, translated from Russian.
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/4783/atl003.html
© 1996 Viatcheslav Y. Koudriavtsev

He goes into Plato's text thoroughly, and planned a depth-sounding project. Results not available yet. He is very aware of the implications of Ice melt.

Here is another reference with lots of images and apparently corrected global coastline!
http://www.pangaea.de/Projects/files/paleoatlas/frenzel_41.JPG

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Boreas
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posted 03-24-2004 11:11     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very interesting, Solon. Thanks for digging this tings up.

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George Erikson
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posted 03-24-2004 20:34     Click Here to See the Profile for George Erikson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bare land revealled has led to incredibly stupid theory -- that Beringia was the immigration route that brought humans to America is the most prominent example. Beringia would have been a cold and almost lifeless extreme. The two-mile-thick ice sheet it led to (extending for thousands of miles) would have been worse. Attempts to satisfy early migration by land bridge migration is deeply flawed. Yet, the depths of the ocean may hold many surprizes, prossibly including a stone record of earlier*(than us) man's ablility to build great monuments.

*Earlier does not denote "more primitive."
www.AtlantisInAmerica.caom

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dhill757
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posted 03-24-2004 23:03     Click Here to See the Profile for dhill757     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Beringia is not only a really bad theory it is an example of science at it's laziest. To say that all humans walked over a frozen land bridge between the continents limits thinking, provides no need for any further research in the area and immediately closes the door to any theories that go outside the box. Too many times scientists look for the "easy" solution. That's why they haven't found evidence of any ancient civilizations and why they often misdate the ones that they've found. The things they find that they can't explain they ignore, pretend don't exist.

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Solon12
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posted 03-25-2004 04:03     Click Here to See the Profile for Solon12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not so fast about Beringia. Russian archaelogists have found evidence of human habitation 27000BP north of the Okotsk (Yana river I think) and the best find of modular spears, that is, detachable heads easily replaced when hunting - like today's ammunition magazines in effect! Not primitive at all. And Beringia was never ice covered, and supported huge hunted game herds including rhino's mammoths etc...

So people did leave warm southern seas, go north during the Ice age, quite happily mastered the place. Why? No animal would do that.

Now comes the 64000 dollar question : why did they wait 10000 years before the so-called american migration? Something is totally unknown here. The Clovis culture south of the American ice sheet matches exactly finds in France at its time +- a few kyr. So there is no question open sea navigation occured then. But what exactly was going on in Beringia is now up in the air with this new Russian find, a couple of months ago.

A clue to why a northern migration, is given by Tilak in his "Arctic Home of the Vedas" and "The Orion". He shows that the Vedas were first spoken above the Arctic circle latest 4000BC using astronomical data packed into the epics. (6 month days and heliacal constellations). What he said holds for 4000 - 25000BP too (precession). So it holds for approximately 27000BP, the time of the latest find which is TWO times older than any previous find at that northern latitude.

Did man decide to head for the Pole as a mission to find more about the universe - i.e. to follow stars for months? Rather like we go to the moon. In both cases new technologies spun off. From the first case sprung our major languages and epics ( and modular spears). Most people today in archaelogy have such a primitive astronomy they will dismiss this offhand, rather like the philogists who dismiss Tilak.

So could we have a situation where a cultural imperative towards knowledge, is misinterpreted as "following herds of game for food to keep the belly full", by todays academics. The Lascaux cave paintings are labelled "food" when they are in fact a zodiac and the most beautifull art. The cave drawing of 30000BP of a man wounded by a bull is Orion and Taurus of the much later Egyptian religion!

That tells us more about academics than our ancestors.

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Boreas
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posted 03-25-2004 06:33     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Most - if not all - school-books about ancient antiquety are obviously telling more about the authors than about our early anchestors!

BERINGIA;
Haven`t you seen the repports I posted on the neighbour-thread ("New info...") where
40.000+ years old discoveries of setlements have been found at the shores of Russia`s Arctic Ocean, along the White Sea and the Kara Ocean? Not only are there setlements, but they have even found objects inscribed with what looks like early writing, similar to the sumerian signs...

And what about the "first Scandinavians" that left their traces 9.200 years ago, all around Scandinavia, where the very oldest traces are form the Baltic Ocean, Carelia and the White Sea-area, 10.200 years BP?

And than the basic - and most incredible discovery, from SW Finland 1995 - where traces of 10.700 years old setlements where found inside the now famous "Wolf-cave". Famous because the deeper stratigrafic layers also contained left-overs from human activitiy, dating back 70.000 years, 120.000 years, 180.000 years and 280-300.000 years...(!!!)

(There are even two fireplaces detected in the sixth stratigrafic layer, which was produce during the inter-glacial period 450.000 years ago, but that is still not "offical news". Possibly because it brakes the axiom of whats known as "the only reasonable explanation" that this population "must have been Neanderthals..."

450.000 years ago they are not supposed to have existed, at least not this far north.
Which is most probably true. But that leaves the scholar with an unbearable gap; then what kind of people where these boreal Finns?

"HOMO KARIJOKIS"
Higly interesting question. The best answer so fra came fronm the truck-driver (sic!) that discovered the resort and made the initial excavation,who called them "Homo Karijokis" after the name of the village by the cave.

Now, "Homo Karijokis" is NOT a theory. It is an observation; tested and blind-tested, analyzed, contra-analyzed to be verified by different laboratories, using the most reliable state-of-the art equipment known within modern geophysics. Done both in Finland and in Germany to make it 101% sure. Because it is highly controversial to all text-books about ice-time in Eurasia. And - alas - still it`s true...!

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Solon12
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posted 03-25-2004 09:02     Click Here to See the Profile for Solon12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Boreas,
I know about a perfectly balanced spear or throwing weapon approx 800,000 BP found in the middle of Europe. And I have heard about a so-called Neanderthal burial as late as 3000BC in Iberia. So the whole question of early "seperate species of man" is racist propoganda. Man is instantly recognized by the intent of his works whereever and whenever found. And mankind is at least 2 million years here.
The effect man produces appears with a bang, not gradually. Cultures can collapse quite suddenly by natural of systemic faults as Plato demonstrates. Atlantis was not the first collapse - did one occur North too?

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Solon12
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posted 03-25-2004 09:15     Click Here to See the Profile for Solon12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Another thought, the 2 cities scanned off India are 2 times older than Sumer, which was a Dravidian colony, an outpost.

On the question of writing - academics cannot accept Ogham, phoenician, even late-ish arabic Khufi all over the U.S. Vowelless Ogham of 1500BC is too much for them, as is ocean navigation even then.

What really worries them is the continuity of civilization as an imperative, in spite of disaster. What gives them a headache is spoken epics spanning at least 6000 years, without writing, turning up all over the place with the same core astronomical 'myth-Powers' in Plato's sense of powers. For persistent myth 'lost' in stories - see Hamlets Mill. For the first deep research see Tilak's Orion.
Hamlets Mill shows Finnish myths matching Polynesian ones just for example. These myths cross so-called indo-european linguistic boundaries, oceans, undamaged even today. All of these persist from a time of no writing - Homer may have been the last great poetry speaker as the new Greek script took hold. Today we have almost no clue of the power of the spoken myth.

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Boreas
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posted 03-25-2004 11:05     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Quite so.
When our history - in general - was orally delivered, from one generation to the other, it had to be memorized. Which of course it was.

As it was told within every branch of humanity it contained the same substance in all limbs and branches, as we still had a stem giving the same essence througout the grat family.

Now; who is the more clever to comprehend, compare and investigate a story - in order to understand it rigth? Who among us have the clearest mind, with the memory still at its optimum?

The children of course. And the youth, - naturally. So, we may try to imagine humanity at a time when all the children could enjoy the stories of their fathers/mothers - about thier direct forefathers/mothers, etc. Now as they grow the stories get larger and more complex, reviewing further and further aspects of our nature, as well as our history, culture and science.

Some of these youngsters became especially trained, just as we still attend schools and uni-versi-ties. (The assesment that "akka-demia" or "natural sciences" are just about a few centuries old is another of these preoccupated designs we meet in todays professional debate).

Out of the more intereseted, eager and taldented youngsters there was quite a few getting to be "professional" story-tellers. Moreover they got a place in the social functions, as bearers of information and knowledge. According to the sagas the senior storytellers (both male and female) had the obligation to travel and interact with their collegues in other districts and countries. Just to make sure that the heads of each branch and limb was supervising or each other, - upholding the true mainlines of the general history, as well as correct versions of the specific subjects, topics and issues.

In an environment where every family - and thus all individuals - were accuainted with the different stories, there was litle or no possibility to change even the sligthest word, not to say meaning, whitout getting an imediate reaction from the elders eye-lids.

Today we may have a problem to understand the inherent accuracy of such an oral TRADITION. It may help to compare it with the songs we have in our brains today. Who doesnt react if an artist performing "Stars and Stripes" on national television, forgets her words and start to hum it?! Just imagine what woulde happen if she started off inventing new words, "to cover up" her loss of memory?!

For the sake of argument; what if the US was object to a coup-de-čtat, getting a tyrantial dictator who banned democracy. To be effective he would ban political discussions as well as the old national hymn. Then he would have a new one written, to fit with his own agenda. And, the most clever way of doing so is to have a NEW version of the good ol` hymn. As long as it can be DICTATED, i.e. given by order IN WRITING, the undertaking becomes possible.

With one book each every child would easily learn the new one. Even though they may not understand it even, children will still obey and do whatr their told, rigth? In 2-3 generations nobody will even remember that there was an old one.

So contrary to what we may think; a tradition of oral academia, such as it still existed in the ancient Hellas - are more accurate and reliable than the modern information-systems, based on the writing-culture.

So, quite to the point S. Today we have only meek ideas about the value, power and plexity of the oral traditions. Even if ALL our classics - from Solon to Shakespeare - are built entirely on the remains from a large, world-wide tradition. The one myths refer to as the "Wisdom of The Ages". The one supposed to be contained (still...?) in the eternal "Hall of Records". Isn`t that where "Atlantis" is supposed to be?


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Solon12
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posted 03-26-2004 03:48     Click Here to See the Profile for Solon12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The written word is a two-edged sword. It carries tremendous possibilities, perhaps at the the huge cost of forgotten ancient spoken or more likely singing method of cognitively replicating knowledge of principles, or powers as Plato and Pythagoreans called them. Thank the gods that these were written down. The loss of Alexandria' library is an untold disaster because upon writing, the oral method was lost.

As regards records, Solon was told by the Ammon priest in Egypt, that they had 8000 years of records. Instead of looking for writing that old, I think the alignement of the Sphinx is a record (approx 9000BC Leo heliacally rose equinox just before sunrise i.e. Leo was above the solar boat)

But back to Atlantis-es and the ocean levels. Looking at the maps I posted and especially Indonesia which was at 17000BP a huge landmass things get very interesting. Just south of that in the Australian Kimberlies dated petroglyphs at 17500BP, the Bradshaw art, totally unlike much later Aboriginal glyphs, show beautifull ships. The very same art style is found in Ethiopia and Chad which at that time all 3 places were not bone dry. Could it be that the Indonesian "Atlantis" colonized Ethiopia and the Kimberlies? Some have claimed this particular art is a kind of writing - the bracelets and hair style are very detailed.

And just to bring us back to Europe, Tutankhamoun had 120 BOOMERANGS in his tomb - any book on him shows an example. Easily passed over unless you know about the Kimberlies where boomerangs are also shown. Ethiopia and Chad petroglyphs show other weapons. Tutenkhamoun probably inherited the boomerangs from generations before.

Egypt begins to look like a link to Europe's Atlantis and the south eastern one that survived the ice melt. All the great greek thinkers went there to learn maths for example.

And the academics tell us Egypt had no maths, never mind what they say about the boomerangs. Which is why the cannot stand what Plato wrote. The tenaceus continuity of civilization is an obstacle to the oligarchical (Babylonian/Roman) mindset. This is an ancient problem even in Atlantis itself. Why did they attack Athens?

As an aside the original Irish inhabitants, Fomorians, who 'were always there' looted and taxed and lived west of todays coastline. The word itself means Faoi Mhara, or under the sea! I think there was a nasty side to Atlantis rather like todays IMF looting Brazil or Mexico. This is also a very tenaceous tradition!

We could go so far as to say civilization has been fighting this looting mindset since at least the battle Plato describes.

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Boreas
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posted 03-26-2004 15:45     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We should be rather careful attemting to explain motives behind the actions of the ancient past. According to the Finnish saga the original "Atlanteans" where definitely peaceful, as their whole mission was reunification.

One of their main activity was connecting districts and populations through trade, which they introduced and organised to make the efforts of travel and communication advantageous to the part-takers.

An organic network of communities, based on the old social structure of family-lines, could establish and support a CITI with produce. The surplus could in turn be shipped away and traded, with other cities inside the same culture. Accumulated in the capitol ports, the royals - as the stem in a three of networks - would "ex-port" their collected surplus, to be changed with "foreign and treasurous goods".

We know that the Minoic culture was a capitol centre for this reunification and trade of the Mediterranean area, connecting Europe and Asia. Thus we may see Hermes and Merkur as the bewinged lords of trade, communication and inter-change, their respctive culture, - one westwarded the other eastwarded. And Egypt southwards.

In the north we had a paralell development from the island of Gotland, where the Finns (Vendi) traded eastwards, the Swedes/Goths westwards and the Danish sailed south. Todays archaeology show that this travels reached east to Asov and Samarkand, west to the "Atlantic Isles" and south to Spain and Mar-seilles.

//During the last decade an astonishing evidence was found on the Swedish side of the Baltic Bay, discovering a 4.800+ year old city, - 1,1 x 1,8 km large, containing more than 30.000 traces of trade, from the entire area of the Baltic Ocean, as well as the river-routes to the North-Atlantic. Big surprise, since the age of Atens and Rome are less than 3.500 years...

Some years before a similar surprise hit archaologists in Northern Norway, escavating three different sigtes with 1.500+ years old Kauri-shells (Cyprea Monata), a mussle known to grow only in the Maldives, south of India...//

This mentioned to explain that we have been having a CONTINOUS culture, starting about 9.000 yars BP, both in the arctic as in the tropic areas. Connecting east and west, as well as north and south.

The Minoic entrepeneurs has a quite steady development, creating "organic" networks ahieving multi-lateral trade and communion. Until the volcanic eruption and/or civil unrest overthrew Crete. Then the old royals (Jupiter/Merkur and Zeus/Hermes) re-established in the "safe-heavens" of todays Rome and Istanbul.

In the aftermath of this great change we see that the old systems of Jupiter and Zeus are in jeopardy, - from groups of populations that started to oppose the souvereignity of the new capitols. Among these where the Myceneans, who actually savaged Crete, the origin of their own culture. In times of turmoil, fear and violence some of the larger cities of the system got "illegitimate" leaders, or plain tyrants - declaring "independence" from either of the two legal capitals. As they succeded they formed the well-known "city-states", to become "alternate" capitols and states within the states.

This new urbane culture did not rest on any natural or cultural foundation, as the relations between the city and its districts was based on violence and obedience rather than family-lines and loyal relations. The new, "modern" (!) city-culture had to live in a commercial souvereignity, often based on brute force, tax and slavery. But still these new urbannian cultures grew to become dictatorial and agressive toward the old organs and organisation ("rule").

As the free states got entangeled in power-politics they dismayed the old order. Logically; since the old rulers saw the disloyal cities as illegitimate. Now if the new regimes, being states-within-the-State, kept creating conflicts and power-strugles I GUESS that some branch(es) of the the royal regimes tried to "figth" this Frons Urbana, and get the agressors back to "order and common sense".

As we know today, the olde cultures of Jupiter and Zeus failed to restore order and peace in the region. On the contrary the unrest grew and a culture of violence, war and tyranny grew to evidently take over both Istanbull and Rome, outrooting the legitimate kinglines and transforming the capitols themselves to centras for violent expension and brute conquest.

Finally the new head of Ju-Pi-ters throne of Rome conquered the whole of Greece. And as the head of state became a succesful warlord - taking the old title of "Per" (the ancient "all-father"), as the new "world ruler" - as in in Em-Per-or.

As Oxford-professor Barry Cunliffe just been showing, the atlantic culture (NW Europe) enjoyed a stable and peaceful balance of trade and communication with the Mediterranean peoples for about 5000 years, until the Romans started an outrigth plunder as the Ceasar introduced "organised crime" to Europe to establish his new "world order" - for himself.

The following generations of brutality and manslaugther is quite well known. Unfortunately it is the only period genereally known, giving most historians and laymen alike the impression that "war and subjugation has ALWAYS ruled". Someday we may find that to be a tragic, but still a small part of our entire history as human beings. It may seem scary of course, but todays scientific discoveries may imply that the human specie indeed have lived in peace and tranquility for millenias - before the imbalance occured and the state of war became a state of mind...


[This message has been edited by Boreas (edited 03-26-2004).]

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Solon12
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posted 03-27-2004 08:20     Click Here to See the Profile for Solon12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Atlantis as referred explicitly by Plato, Diodorus, Herodototus did actually declare war on an Athens of 9000BC and its allies, who deserted it, leaving it alone to win against Atlantis. Plato's lesson is very clear, flaws in a culture cause more collapses than even natural disasters. The worst possible combination is then both a flaw, an oligarchy, plus a natural event. We should not hesitate to broadcast this loud and clear today as Plato did in his time. Our civilization could collapse if agressive war and a financial collapse drive the worst attempts to be king of the rubble heap, instead of a renaissance type of recovery.

Atlantis had greatnes indeed. Could it be that as the sea rose and it saw its entire civilization engulfed in tidal waves etc, a faction attempted world war? In normal times such a faction is underfoot. In crises they can be used by oligarchies as happened in our times.

Evans' "Minoans" spoke Greek. Ventris established that in the 1950's. Linear A has been deciphered since the 1970's by Barry Fell - see the ESOP online page.
The bulls horns on Knossos is in fact the Egyptian horizon hieroglyph. And Taurus (horus) rode the solar boat helically rising at equinox approx 6000 to 4000BC. Evans peculiar motives are well known - see the recent biography. His fantasy of teenagers leaping over bulls horns, is in fact a depiction of Orion-Osiris, Taurus and Andromeda. There is much more to this.

So 'Minoa' was an Egyption "colony" that spoke Greek. Greece is a child of Egypt, yet far surpassing their "parent". Alexander freed Egypt from Persians, a result of generations of work. Solon was part of this.

Look at Agamamnon, his attack on Troy was totally unecessary under normal times, yet the 10 year campaign destroyed Mycenean culture so much that none of its cities were ever re-ocupied. The sea-peoples struck right then and 800 years of collapse followed. Athens later had no need to exterminate Miles and never recovered after the Peleponesian wars.

In Egypt itself a very powerfull priesthood was openly challenged by Ekhenaton who also defeated the sea-peoples after Troy. Now evidence (Sellers' Death of Gods in Ancient Egypt) that a priest faction actually commited regicide over the entire dynastic period. It is clear that with such a faction in power, attempts were made to found a better system elsewhere. Rather like the found of the first modern republic in 1783 outside europe where the oligarchy was too powerfull.
That republic, like Athens, will disappear if it follows the "Peleponesian" model, i.e. declaring war everywhere.

I think this why Plato's lesson is so disturbing, and eternally true.

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Boreas
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posted 03-28-2004 04:25     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for your info and reflections.

I do not doubt that the stories you refer are describing the decline of that obviously happened to the Mediterranean culture.

But I do not see the time-span in Platon is exactly correct. Later arcaeological repports - such as from Maia Gimbutaitis - states that there are no signs of warfare in the region prior to aprox. 4.000 years ago. Prior to this there are no signs of weapons or warfare to be found...

//Her interpretation goes to the male/female concept of the culture, presuming that the prime culture was maternal and thus peaceful. Further she speculates that there was a cultural shift as the male started to conduct war, overthrowing the maternal leadership, introducing a male "chauvinism" that evidently grew more and more violent, -to keep the male dominion and ensure "the new (illegitimate) patriarcial rule".//

As mentioned above I think that the "post-atleantean" culture, created as a ongoing process - on/from Crete - since 9.500 BP, at some point ran into a very, very troublesome time. First there where the grat volcano bursting, that hit Crete with devastating effect. Then there was the flear within the culture, as individuals and groups started to act on their own, discreditting and opposing the base-lines of the "constitutional stability" of the original, "atlantean" culture (Zeus/Jupiter).

As violence and brute force grew pirating and warfare even struck Crete itself, as we know, destroying the original residents of the atlanteans, today called "Minoic".

The warfare was brougth to Crete by the Myceans, not the Persians or Egyptians. At this time (3500-4000 BP) the Egyptian culture where also faced with serious troubles and plagues. Even if they still where able to keep the core of their culture going, there is little doubt that the building of a growing number of pyramids where a demonstration of their legacy as an authentic, ongoing constitution and social culture, - as only a legitimate dynasty can represent and proceed.

---

By the way, don`t forget that the name "Minoic" (from Minos) is a label made by modern time historians. The only historical source nami ng and describing the early Cretian society is actually the mentioned Saga, which explains that this was the place where the "Atlanteans" created a double-monarchy, one east one westwards. Thus the famous sculpture/picture of the archaical stem-mother (two breasts/two arms/two snakes/two axes) who bore the two royal sons to Crete, dividing the royal line in two, making both the brothers of Zeus and Jupiter kings, to become the Greek, respectively the Roman heads of "people and country".

Also Egypt have been established under the Cretian culture. But after the disaster, when Jupiter/Zeus moved to the northern mainland some 4000 years ago, Egypt got their own Capitol, with a royal line called Pharaos - also known as Faraos, with the meaning Far-a-o, "Father-of(from)-Oden" (Oden = The Sun/The First Ring). Note also that in the Medi-Terra-nean we find the Py-Ra-Mid refers to Py/Pi=Circle, Ra=King, Mid=Midle.

Thus the royal line, from the first family of the country - runs through the middle of the pyramid, as his children and their population grows around the procreator Farao, generation by generation.

It was to his relativly young and troubled state that the descendants of ABrahman arrived from Hindistan, where the classical, pyramidal structure already had been changed under Krisna (see "Mahabaratha"). As a consequence thereof a large clas of noblemen - key-players in the old structure - was laid off. Thus they left for Egypt who still kept the classic model, intending to be reinstated in their proper positions/functions there.

But they were not accepted as noblemen inside the Egyptian system. So they went out of mainland Egypt, to the Greek/Egyptian province east of the Medi-terranean. Here the hindi nobility established a completly new state, choosing a king amongst them to create a completly new state and raced - inbetween the existing populations...

Regards,

[This message has been edited by Boreas (edited 03-28-2004).]

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Solon12
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posted 03-28-2004 14:34     Click Here to See the Profile for Solon12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I take Plato as the only reference - his detailed documentation of how he knew the story is rare especially today. Herodotus and Diodorus also referred to this, and even older events- Prometheus for example.

As far as "no evidence" etc. : there is no need to invent modern psycho-social theories, instead look for evidence in 100m of sea water - a much more difficult thing to do.

On Minos - Schliemann's astounding success in proving Homer correct on Troy, and since 1994 known to be correct in detail, disturbed the Royal Society so much they dispatched their agent Evans to Crete. It took 25 years before Ventris got access to Evans hoard of finds and proved Minos was Greek. Evans invented the whole Minoan cult fantasy and his reconstruction of Knossos is a crime against archaelogy. Schliemann's death is even suspect, just like Ventris's death by car 'accident' a month before his publication. See the recent biography to understand "agent".

How could Homer have so accurately described an historicly specific event 800 years after that event? In writing just 50 years old in Homer's time (phoenician-plus alphabet)? That is the key to classical art as opposed to Romantic novels of the Enlightenement. The psycho-social theories of ancient man spring from the Romantic movement and are not intent on discovery, rather the opposite.

Like Homer, Plato was right in detail. We await the next Schliemann to really drive the establishment into apoplexy. Atlantis did have a major cultural flaw, which the establishment do not want us to know - they embody that flaw today! Thats definitely not a Kantian acadamic categorical concept.

You see Kant could not do it. Homer, Plato, Schliemann, Ventris could and did!

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Boreas
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posted 03-28-2004 22:42     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Did you check on Dr. Felice Vincis latest works on Homer? (Mentioned above)

He is considered to one of our leading researchers Homeric litterature.

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Solon12
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posted 03-31-2004 01:32     Click Here to See the Profile for Solon12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Latacz of Switzerland is a very good source on Homer's works.
As regards the latest Troy discoveries, finally they found ceramic 'coins' with Taruisa written on them in Hittite. The region of Troy was called Wilusia. Whence the Greek Troy and Illios.
They also found the outer wall, exactly the size Homer said aven though he was never there.

There is more. "The Secret of the Illiad",2002, and very hard to acquire, details the astronomy of the Illiad. For example the List of Ships with captains and warriors is the Zodiac with the brightest star being the strongest. Achilleus is Sirius. This breakthrough puts Homes's work on the level of Vedas which was shown in 1898 to be packed with astronomical data. The author of The Secret... apparently never heard of Tilak, and after 52 years of work on the Illiad arrived at a very similar conclusion. By the way she says Homers detailed knowledge of star colors and relative brightness must mean Homer was not blind.

With this in mind take Timaeus very seriously. The dating puts the events at 9000BC, right at the end of the ice age.

As regards war in pre-history, speared figures are depicted in the Kimberlies at a later epoch than the 17500BP fine art. The style also changed. Could it be the onset of dessication to todays bone-dry climate there disrupted the peace? One must be carefull here : a 30,000BP petroglyph off Marseilles in 30m water depicts what archaeoligists call a man wounded by a bull - it is in fact Orion & Taurus. But we do know the dessication is what ironically preserved the petroglyphs so beautifully.

How about a continuity from 30000BP to Egypt of the Orion theme? Seek out Rappenglueck's work on paleo-astronomy at Lascaux and much more. The Chauvet cave off Marseilles is now only accessible by diving in 30m water. The official report correctly shows that Ice-age coastline. The discovery was pure accident by holiday divers!

Even more astounding. BBC reported that Rappenglueck found to his disbelief, that a large floor stone, in Lascaux or a related cave, that everybody walked on, had 150 portraits of individuals. Each one is different. We are talking here of 30000BP.
No archaelogist noticed this. Maybe they insist they are scratch marks. One finds today in Cathedrals floor stones of bishops etc. Are we looking at a 30000 year old tradition?

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Boreas
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posted 03-31-2004 14:48     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Today we have many and astounding discoveries from "pre-historic times" - repported from all around the globe. There are obvious traces of civil and cultural activity, some remains showing clear and strong indications of "higher" culture.

Mapped together this information are pointing towards a much higher degree of cultural communication and interchange than previously recognized. 30.000 years ago and more.

But there was a new impact and speed to this interchange that happened about 9.-10.000 years ago, as ice-time was rapidly disapearing.

It is this change that spured of the development leading up to the classcical cultures that we have been discussing in this forum. Thus we may see this ignition of a world-wide communication to be sparked off by the peoples reffered to by Plato and others.

Thus I have introduced the conceept of an old population in tha Baltics, surviving as people, society AND as a ancient culture. Since the end of ice-time this culture developed furter as it spread rapidly around the open areas of the northern hemisphere.

Simultaniously this Baltic culture obviously communicated with the age-old civilisations of the tropical hemisphere, such as the Mediterranean area. The connections grew so strong and steady that we can talk about a Eurpean community of trade and culture being excercised already around 7000 BP. As prof. Cunliffe have showed there was a balance of peace and stable communion from the Baltics to the Medeiterranean shores for about 5000 years, - not to be broken before the Caesarian conquest.

It should be obvious - not strange - that we have a lot of cultural sites, monuments and items showing centras of higher culture around the globe, existing already before the end of ice-time.

It should be likewise obvious that we have a new impact created by the arctic people and their culture, regaining access and contact with theese culture as ice-time ended. The significance of this arcticals are still to be further investigated and understood, but it is simply beyound doubt that their appearance in the tropical/subtropical waters occured some 9-10000 years ago, coinciding with the time and the nature of the legends refered to both in Plato and the Bocksaga.

The strength of the further co-existance between these areas may be a main reference also in Homers litterature, such as in an Odyse of Zevs. In the Norse sagas we have a parralell royal figure by the name of Ull, also called Ullu-se-us. Thats one reason to look further into the recent research done by our contemporary professor, Dr. Felice Vinci.

The number of coincidents are about to become far to many to uphold the view of the Baltic-Mediterranean coexistence as "fringe elements".

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Solon12
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posted 04-01-2004 01:44     Click Here to See the Profile for Solon12     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Boreas,
Please take a look at "Hamlet's Mill" where Santillana devotes whole chapters to Finnish epics, Icelandic and of course the rest of the world EXCEPT Egypt. He takes the theme of Amlodhi, Shakespeare's Hamlet, and the Mill and finds it in all language cultures including the non-indo-european Finnish. He extracts or more correctly recognises, astronomical precession in all of these stories, a highly technical mythological language. These stories persist because of that.
Another very interesting book is "Der Ursprung der Sternzeichen" only available in German, also at www.artandscience.de .
There he shows the origin of the constellations to be in fact a map of the Baltic, Arctic, Atlantic, Black Sea, Mediterranean. This map was used for open sea navigation. Just to start Orion is Denmark, Cetus Finlands coast. I think it should be matched better to the Ice age coastline.

Have a look : Finland is LITERALLY on the Map!

As regards the Arctic, The Vedas were first composed and spoken above the Arctic circle, long before Sanskrit, at the latest 6000BC. Or 6000BC - 25,000 (1 precession cycle) = 31,000BC. We know this from day lengths and rising constellations which are characters in the epic. This approach, celestial characters and action, geography of the heavens, yields tremendous insights, into where and when people were.

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Boreas
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posted 04-01-2004 20:47     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Amazing!
I`m not just impressed - but rather thrilled about the information and significance you bring about.

Astrology and astronomy was never my cup of tea, but this made it imediatly appealing as you point to connections that start to explain the basic origin and significance to this branch of science. Congratulations on your good work - and please fill us in as you get on...

Due to some question on the neighbouring thread ("New info...") I copied my last letter (above) as a reply there - today. I hope thats ok.

Sincere regards,

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Boreas
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posted 04-11-2004 23:27     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The following excerpt from Nature, March 2002, may shed some ligth on the reasons why there is a special (early) connection between the arctic population - comming out of the Baltics more than 40.000 years ago, reaching the White Ocean and the Arctic Ocean to the east 40.-10.000 years ago - AND the Tibetan peoples being able to emigrating along the Urals, - and later along the coasts of the Artic Ocean, after ice-time...

QUOTE;
"Handprints and footprints 20,000 years old reveal that people lived on the Tibetan plateau at the height of the Ice Age - 16,000 years earlier than scientists had thought. The newly found signs of life cast doubt on the idea that a glacier a kilometre thick covered the plateau at that time.

David Zhang and S. H. Li of the University of Hong Kong found the marks of at least six individuals, including two children, in marble-like rocks that were once soft mud on a mountain slope 85 kilometres from the Tibetan capital, Lhasa1.

They also found a fireplace nearby, with the remains of a primitive stove, suggesting that the site was a camp, perhaps even a settlement.

Until now, the oldest known settlements on the Tibetan plateau dated from late Neolithic times, around 4,000 years ago. This had led some researchers to conclude that humans first migrated into Tibet around this time.

The encampment is also a nail in the coffin for the ice-covered plateau hypothesis. It indicates that at least part of the plateau, which today is 4,000 metres high on average, was free of ice even during this frigid period of Earth's history.

Carbonate cast

The very hot spring that probably attracted the Ice-Age settlers also preserved their marks for posterity. The spring water is rich in dissolved minerals and gases. As carbon dioxide gas bubbles out of the water, minerals such as calcite precipitate out. This forms a soft mineral mud. As the mud dries, it turns into a hard, durable limestone called travertine.

So, thanks to the hot spring, the mountainside made plaster casts of the Ice-Age people who lived on it. Nineteen hand- and footprints are clearly visible in the stone surface.

Zhang and Li date the travertine deposit by the tiny grains of quartz that got trapped within it while the mud solidified. Quartz acts as a mineral clock. When heated, it emits light in proportion to the time that has elapsed since it was last warmed or exposed to sunlight.

This technique is called thermoluminescence dating. Energy builds up in trapped quartz because it is exposed to radiation from natural radioactive elements such as uranium and thorium in surrounding minerals. It emits this energy as light: the longer the exposure time, the higher the energy and so the brighter the light.

Because heat or sunlight releases the trapped energy, the quartz grain clock would have been set to zero when the grains became embedded in the warm mud from the spring.


References
Zhang, D.D. & Li, S. H.Optical dating of Tibetan human hand- and footprints: an implication for the palaeoenvironment of the last glaciation of the Tibetan Plateau. Geophysical Research Letters, 29, Published online DOI: 10.1029/2001GL013749 (2002).

© Nature News, March 27th, 2002/ Macmillan Magazines Ltd 2002



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Akata
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posted 04-22-2004 13:01     Click Here to See the Profile for Akata     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
there were many atlantises corect only 3
i dont now long my people from my past life
have a war with rama empire,but i now the first atlantis was for sure in the bermuda trigle area,no body cant now what weapons both sides haved,the scale of desctruction is above any modern weapon,one such weapon was the rama empire island destroyer they
destroyed the first atlantis,them my people
moved on a rebuild the capital somewhere else but my memories from the past life are
very hard to rember i remeber only small thinks from the atlantien era aka the golden age,for sure the second capital that haved the same name as the first and the capital of rama empire was destroyed from a
meteor from space if i am corect the meteor fallen down where nows the piramids stand
you must now there was once a giant crater
on that crater was the underground complex build and maybe the piramids also i can now that its can be or not,the last capital of atlantien civ was azores but in the past azores wast a large island and the werabuts of the 2 capital of rama empire is unkown
to the atlantiens but i now at the peak of
our war we destroyed much of your civilzation and the wildlife on earth
i can state that the war killed 95% of life on earth and removed any traces of both civilazations but the citys of rama empire ramain shielded by the rainforests,but the atlantien city and our colure totaly gone,but not all there where suvivers
from both sited the builded colonys
that become indepented after the fall of
there imperies,i now a atlantien created a state thoth the atlantien -egipt

------------------
--For The Pride Of --
---Atlantien Race---

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via mars
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posted 04-22-2004 17:31     Click Here to See the Profile for via mars     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
boreas and solon - did you check out article(s) in wash post mag last sunday? y-chromosone story strikes again. probably has a few lines or two that would furrow your brows ...
wether or not you believe the whole premise ...

akata - taka karanda!? ala-balanda/ma-balanda. know what i mean, vern?

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