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Author Topic:   [R] Tribes of Atlantis II [R]
Riven
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posted 03-04-2004 14:03     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Fellow Atlanteans;

Well, it seems like we've reached the limit in our Tribes of Atlantis thread.

Thank you immensely for all your support and contributions. It is with heartfelt pleasure to be able to continue this thread, which, like Ulysses, we have travelled the seas of discord on our journey towards Atlantis. This thread began as a way to look at all the different cultures involved with Atlantis and to better our knowledge of the world surrounding them.

My last train of thought digs deep into the mystery surrounding this Khufu, Khafre, Menkaure trimesgitus which was the "Separation" of Egypt from King Menes, and is symbolic of the name of SETH.

I feel that King Menes was one of the last Kings related to the Atlantean bloodlines, which, we only need to think about the "Subjugation of Libya" to make sense of this. The Egyptians seemed to detest the rule of these wicked Pharaohs and their closing of the temples to the point that they would rather speak of Philitis, the shepherd, who could also have been Jesus Christ.

Perhaps this separation from Menes by these Pharaohs, was the initial "Suppression" of the legend of Atlantis, where in 570 bC, the tale finally fell from the lips of the Egyptian Priest to Solon.

Once again, Thank you very much for helping me to see the world in a new light and for the chance to be a part of this great mystery.

Til Atlantis do we part!!

With Gratitude

[R] Riven [R]

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Riven
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posted 03-08-2004 02:27     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dynasties I and II
The Unification of Egypt
Protodynastic Era
Much of what happened during the earlier periods of Egyptian history is speculative. It seems that the southern king Narmer (perhaps Aha or the legendary Menes) won a victory over a northern king which has been immortalized by the Narmer Palette. What may have been another southern victory over the inhabitants of the Delta is depicted on the Bull Palette
1st Dynasty (3100-2890 BCE)
According to Herodotus Upper and Lower Egypt were united by Menes (who may be representative of a number of kings involved in the process of unification), the founding king of the first dynasty who, according to Manetho, came from the Thinite province in Upper Egypt. Whether unification was achieved by military or peaceful means is uncertain.
According to tradition, Menes founded Memphis on an island in the Nile, conducted raids against the Nubians and extended his power as far as the first cataract. He sent ambassadors to Canaan and Byblos in Phoenicia to establish peaceful commercial trade links. He founded the city of Crocodilopolis and built the first temple to the god Ptah.
Legend has it, that he died at the age of sixty three, killed by wild dogs and crocodiles near Fayum. According to Manetho he was killed by a hippopotamus after a 62 year reign. His was buried at Saqqara, the necropolis of Memphis. His wife Neithotep became regent until their child, Djer, was old enough to reign.
Herodotus on Menes

Djer, married to Herneith, ruled from Memphis during fifty years, building palaces and conducting military expeditions against Asiatics in the Sinai desert. An inscription with his name south of the first cataract points to the extent of the realm.
Of Wadj, who succeeded him little is known. His limestone stela was found near Abydos where he was buried.

Queen Merenith ruled Egypt as regent when Den became king as a child. There are, however, many scholars who think that Merenith was a ruler in her own right. Stone vessels and sealings bearing her name were found at Saqqara, as was a stela with her name written in an archaic form with crossed arrows signifying the name of Neith. Merenith has two burial sites, one at Abydos and one at Saqqara (Mastaba 3503). The Saqqara tomb contains some artifacts that show the the name of a high court official called Seshemka. The Abydos burial complex is amongst those of the kings of her dynasty.
During Den's fifty year reign he conducted military campaigns in the Sinai desert in order to gain control of the mineral deposits there. He was buried at Saqqara, even though he built his mortuary complex in Abydos. The cult of Apis was introduced during his reign.

Anendjib who was legitimized by his marriage to Betrest of the Memphite royal family, ruled for fourteen years from Memphis. His power over the south was challenged by local tribes and the northern nomes were often rebellious.
Semerkhet reigned for only nine years, and is thought by some to have been a usurper. According to Manetho disasters occurred during his reign. He may have caused the unrest during Anendjib's reign. He is responsible for erasing Anendjib's name from stone vases. A little black stela bearing his name is the only direct evidence found.

Qa'a is mentioned on jar sealings and two damaged stela. One one of these stela he is shown wearing the White Crown of Upper Egypt and being embraced by the God Horus. According to Manetho he reigned for about 26 years. He was buried at Abydos in the tomb designated Tomb Q. A German archaeological expedition in 1993 re-excavated the tomb and discovered that several alterations had been made in the tomb.
Until the reign of Den Egypt seems to have enjoyed stability and prosperity. Order broke down during Anendjib's reign, when conflicting factions caused changes that would end this great dynasty. The practice of subsidiary burial where retainers were killed in order to serve the ruler in the afterlife ceased after the reign of Qa'a.

2nd Dynasty (2890-2686 BCE)
Hotepsekhemwy has been identified only by some sealings discovered at Saqqara near the Pyramid of Unas. He may have been given his name which translates as Pleasing in Powers for having ended the political strife that occurred during the 1st Dynasty. His rule spanned 35 years and may have been ended by a military coup organized by his brother.
Raneb followed Hotepsekhemwy to the throne of Egypt, and is thought to have ruled for 39 years. Many sealings found at Saqqara and a stela located at Abydos bear his name. Raneb had, according to Manetho, initiated the worship of the sacred goat of Mendes.

Nynetjer ruled according to some accounts for 47 years. The Palermo Stone records a number of events that occurred between the 6th and 26th year of his reign. He had many festivals dedicated to various deities of Egypt. among them the Running of the Apis Bull. The wrecking of the city of Shem-Re is connected with his name [1].
Peribsen (Sekhemib) made sweeping political changes. The serekhs bearing the royal names are not surmounted by Horus anymore but by his religious rival, Set, who became the primary royal patron deity. A stela bearing Peribsen's name found at Abydos illustrates this change in loyalties. He may have been a usurper or a member of a collateral branch of the ruling family. Peribsen was buried at Abydos.

When Khasekhemwy ascended the throne he had to put down a Northern rebellion. The rebels reached as far south as Nekheb and Nekhen, the ancient southern capital. His victory is described on two statues. Both portraits show the king with northerners cringing at his feet wearing the White Crown symbolizing the South. It is recorded that there were more than 47,000 casualties.
A statue of him, which resides in the Cairo Museum, is the first example of use of hard stone . He married Nemathap, a woman of royal Northern lineage. The marriage consolidated the kings rule in both regions. Nemathap is documented as being a "King Bearing Mother". She is also credited with being the ancestor of the 3rd Dynasty.
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/history1-2.htm#2nd

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Riven
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posted 03-08-2004 02:57     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Regardless of our theories, we will never find Atlantis if we don't find it in Egypt,from where it came.

This story was recorded in their temples and we have no solid evidence to surmass this claim. The above post is a relative piece of information we should all bear in mind for our quest of Atlantis. Seth, as Atalante pointed out seems to be a Semitic man of sorts, with malicious plans,rooting down to Khufu.

The Temple of Karnak is one of the closest resemblences to the Temples of Atlantis which grew from King to King.

The Temple of Neith and the Temple of Mut.

Where in Egypt can we find Atlantis prior to 570 bC?

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atalante
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posted 03-08-2004 08:53     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Solon's story about finding "inscribed pillars" which contained the story of Atlantis seem to be equivalent to the "stelae" which were erected in Egypt's "public chapels", which were often (but not always) placed in the rear of New Kingdom temples, or in the homes of wealthy families.

quote from: http://touregypt.net/featurestories/cults.htm
It should be noted that not all cult worship took place in the normal temple environment. Though during the New Kingdom a type of public chapel, known as a "Chapel of the Hearing Ear" was sometimes built into the rear of regular temples for the general public, there also came to exist, particularly during the New Kingdom, sites at Amarna and Deir el-Medina that evidence public chapels which would have contained either a small cult statue, or more commonly a stela with an image of the god. Areas in some private homes were even set aside for worship. At Amarna, upper-class homes had domestic shrines containing statues of Akhenaten and his family, or stelae showing the royal family venerating the Aten (sun disk). Also, many of the houses at Deir el-Medina contained household shrines consisting of a wall niche which could be equipped with an offering table or libation trough. Such areas might be found in any room, including the kitchen. Popular gods for such shrines included Mertseger, Renenutet, Sobek, Amun, Taweret and Hathor, though deceased relatives were frequently worshipped as the "able spirit of Re".

Small, public chapels were usually served by lay priests, but we have little information about the cult practices in these, or in home shrines. Doubtless, offerings of food, libations and incense were made, but what other forms of rituals took place is unknown. These shrines served as places where people could make specific requests of their gods in prayer.

endquote

As noted in the above quote, Taweret (goddess of the northwest sky, and linked interchangably with the Heliopolitan sky-goddess Nut) was commonly one of the deities who were honored by such shrines. Here is a discussion of Taweret:

quote from: http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/taweret.html
In The Book of the Dead Taweret, the 'Lady of Magical Protection', was seen as a goddess who guided the dead into the afterlife. As with her double nature of protector and guardian, she was also a guard to the mountains of the west where the deceased entered the land of the dead. Many of the deities relating to birth also appear in the underworld to help with the rebirth of the souls into their life after death.

She was thought to be the wife of a few gods, mostly because of her physical characteristics. She was linked to the god Sobek, because of his crocodile form. Occassionally Taweret was depicted with a crocodile on her back, and this was seen as Taweret with her consort Sobek. Bes, because the Egyptians thought they worked together when birthing of a child, was thought to be her husband in earlier times.

At Waset (Thebes), she was also thought to be the mother of Osiris, and so linked to the sky goddess Nut. Another part of this theology was that it was Amen, who became the supreme god rather than Ra, who was the father of Osiris. It was believed that Amen came to Taweret (called Ipet at this particular time) and joined with her to ensure the renewal of the cycle of life. Ipet herself had become linked with the original wife of Amen, Amaunet (invisibility). It was at Ipet-Isut that she was believed to have given birth to Osiris. In later times, Ipet was assimilated by Mut who took her place as the wife of Amen and mother goddess.

Plutarch described Taweret as a concubine of Set who had changed her ways to become a follower of Horus. In this form, she was linked to the goddess Isis. It was thought that the goddess kept Set's powers of evil fettered by a chain."
endquote

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 03-08-2004).]

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atalante
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posted 03-08-2004 10:07     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The god Amon rose to power in Thebes during the 12th Dynasty of Egypt. His name means "hidden", and prior to the 12th dynasty he played a very minor role in the Heliopolitan pyramid texts.

By way of contrast, before the 12th dynasty, Mont (god of warfare, and whose sacred animal was the Buchis bull) had been the primary god of Thebes.

A good argument can be advanced that Mont was a prototype for Solon's version of Atlantean/Poseidon.

Just as Zeus rose up and demoted Poseidon to second rank among the Greek gods -- so too did Amon rise up and demote Mont to second rank among the New Kingdom Egyptian gods at Thebes.

And the sacred animals of these two gods were both a powerful animal which could be used for plowing: Mont's animal was the bull, while Poseidon's animal was the horse.

Plato makes this connection somewhat clearer by saying that the Atlantean equivalent of Poseidon used the bull as his sacred animal.

And Plato also said that Poseidon/(Mont) originally lived inland, with no intention of sailing on salt-sea-water.

After Mont was ousted at Thebes in the 12th dynasty, he could not be happy in a subordinate position, so he "chose to live apart" at Hermonthis, of which he remained the uncontested master.

This finds a parallel when Plato says that Poseidon wanted to dwell apart from Zeus, after Poseidon had been demoted to secondary rank.

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 03-08-2004).]

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Riven
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posted 03-09-2004 12:49     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Atalante;

Just wondering if you would consider Tawaret to be the equivalent of Nephthys??

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atalante
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posted 03-10-2004 17:52     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is a link which will convert any name into Egyptian heiroglyphics. http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/nomhiero.html

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atalante
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posted 03-11-2004 10:29     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When we read, and analyze, the (Ptolemaic period) Egyptian heiroglyph for Ptah, its easy to see that Solon might have claimed it represents "Atlas".

This is easy to visualize in the drawings which are given in the following link.

quote from: http://www.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/Intro/node20.html#SECTION00080000000000000000
In Serge SAUNERON's Les prêtres de l'ancienne Égypte, (p. 138) the following example is given: Ptah, usually written(),is written [more artistically during the Ptolemaic era].
The first sign is the sky, ``pt '', and stands for a ``p ''. The second is the god hh , and stands for the "h". And the last is the earth, , and stands for the ``t ''. But the three signs show a man separating the sky and the earth, which is sometime an attribute of Ptah.

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 03-11-2004).]

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cleasterwood
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posted 03-12-2004 08:13     Click Here to See the Profile for cleasterwood     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These conversations give me so much insight. I've almost finished writing my first fiction novel in the trilogy called "Talismans of Time" and I'm very excited about doing the final draft. It is a time travel novel based in Ancient Egypt with many "Atlantean" references. It is called "Ra's Warrior" and is posted in two places, www.rateyourwriting.com and www.geocities.com/cleasterwood . If anyone is interested in reading what is posted, there are 15 Chapters on GeoCities and 11 on RYW. I posted a thread called "Atlantis fiction" to try and compile information on what readers would like to see in a fictional book about Atlantis but as of late only one person has left any input. I'm really interested in knowing what my intellectual peers have to say. I think this is a good place to post since this forum receives so much attention. Please, check out the thread and leave your insights as the next book is lacking in unique ideas and is ALL based in Atlantis.
Your input will be invaluable to me and with the god's luck you may even see your ideas/suggestions in writing.
Thanks!

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Riven
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posted 03-12-2004 09:10     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Atalante;
The symbol you linked for Ptah is the beginning of the creation of Shu and Tefnut.

Which Georgeos also links to his Atlas with Schu.

So now we have Ptah as Atlas, or the great Ah or horushekmet which could be the meaning of the hh and the T for Earth. I say this name from sensing without knowledge of such. Just what I feel.

And this is part of our quest to link the like names beyond doubt,that's why I asked if you felt Taweret is the double of Nephthys. Like Isis and Athena.

So you pose a new challenge to distinguish between Ptah and Shu.

We know Ptah is said to be the creator,and the strongest link to Atlas is quite evident in the heiroglyph.

Cleasterwood;

Valiant novel worthy of mention and a job well done. Haven't scanned all the chapters,now I'll have to take my PC to work with me in my little red wagon

It's hard to put a good book down.

Glad we could assist you,best of book worms to you!

Maybe you could provide some input as to how you feel about Khufu and his lifestyle?

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cleasterwood
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posted 03-13-2004 05:33     Click Here to See the Profile for cleasterwood     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Riven,
I'm glad you are enjoying it and taking the time to read it as I hope to get it published.

As far as my views on Khufu and his lifestyle, they are many. I hate the typical 'tyrant' reference attributed to him as I see him in different light. The latest archeaological finds prove, to me anyway, that the reigning king cared for the people who worked on the monuments. Although, I'm still skeptical as to what king built them because the references to Khemenkhufu are still lacking. Yes, Hawass says that Khufu was the builder but he still hasn't produced the proof in hieroglyph. I guess I like to cling to the controversial theories. It keeps my mind sharp. His lifestyle must have been opulent and I'm willing to bet that his treasures are waiting to be unearthed. I envision wonderful feasts, dancing women, a lavish palace (though no ruins were found), and bountiful harvests. His clothing probably even set trends in the ancient world. I also feel that he spoke many languages and was a learned man.

The overall absence of hieroglyphs in the GP is quiet intriguing as it leads one to believe it wasn't really a place for his burial. Besides, even a sarcaphogus with just his body wouldn't fit through that hole in the King's Chamber. Edgar Cacye said in one of his readings that Khufu's tomb was in a circular room beneath the pyramid and even though I don't like "sleeping prophets" normally, I tend to agree with that theory. I guess that's why I used it in the book.

I hope that others here will venture into the posted chapters as well before I yank them off the site and the thread I posted here. It's my objective to get it published as a serial novel first in Deep-Magic.net 's e-zine while I wait out the agents and publishers in the traditional route to pick it up.

Again, thanks for the help and I hope to see those replies soon.
Keep writing & reading,
C.L. Easterwood

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Riven
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posted 03-14-2004 01:27     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Your Welcome Cleasterwood.

By the way, if anyone is interested. Atalante reminded me of the heiroglyphic name for Atlantis, according to this modern spelling. If you would like to see the heiroglyph, I posted it on my homepage.
www.mts.net/~perasa

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cleasterwood
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posted 03-14-2004 03:59     Click Here to See the Profile for cleasterwood     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Riven, I checked out your site and I must say it's very interesting. Is the map based on Plato's description? And is copywritten? That would be so helpful since I hate drawing maps when I'm building the worlds, it consumes too much valuable writing time. There are numerous maps out there that describe Atlantis based on Plato's description but I'm having trouble finding one that's detailed enough to suit my needs.

The links in your creature section are missing, though. The photos aren't showing. Just thought I'd let you know.

[This message has been edited by cleasterwood (edited 03-14-2004).]

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atalante
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posted 03-14-2004 08:48     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Riven,
In regard to Taweret, I haven't reached a final conclusive identity yet.

But clearly she matches Cardaea in European mythology. That makes her not only the guardian of the Celestial North Pole (i.e. constellation Draco), but also the "goddess of beans" (=legumes, or pulses), which we previously discussed. Plato said pulses were the main element in Atlantean diets.

Cardaea had a festival in Rome on June 1, and people ate pork and beans in her honor.

Archaeological remains of early European domesticated pigs have been found in Thessaly Greece around 7000 BC. (But second variety of pigs was domesticated in Southeast Asia, as part of that region's neolithic revolution, around 7000 BC.)

It seems that all "western" pigs have the same DNA ancestor.

Plato almost certainly knew about the Roman Cardaea, and the other bean goddesses (north pole goddesses) of Europe, such as Cerdo and Ceredwen).

The Atlantean first lady Cleito has a name which is cognate with Cerdo (Cardaea), and the atlanteans ate pulse food.

So I suspect Plato intended Cleito to be the goddess of pork and beans.

Let me pose a question: What food did people eat in era before the Olympian gods?

Greek myths say that Demeter invented most of the cereal grains, such as barley and wheat.

So for the "age of the titans" (i.e. before the Olympian Demeter invented cereals ca 5500 BC), it would be logical to assume that people (such as Atlas and the Atlanteans) ate a lot of pork and beans, and other pulse foods.

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 03-15-2004).]

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atalante
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posted 03-14-2004 09:05     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is a link about the Egyptian god AA, AH, AAH, etc. http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/egyptian-mythology.php?deity=AAH

I find it interesting that the Mandaeans, who were called Sabians by Muhammed, claim that they are descended from an Egyptian moon god, who was also the moon god of the city of Harran (the original home of Abraham in the Bible).

And the Mandaeans have a calendar with 360 days per year. The link which I gave above about the Egyptian moon-god AH says that AH had a calendar year of 360 days, before Thoth added 5 days to it.

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 03-15-2004).]

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docyabut
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posted 03-14-2004 10:10     Click Here to See the Profile for docyabut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think I`m understanding the religions of the ancients.The worship of Baal and EL.People of these cultures thought the planets, the stars had influence over their lives.The Hebrews also applied these titles to things form instead of formless. Another way of thinking brought man to believe himself as Gods. Greeks,Egyptains Atlantians,ect. Atlas and figures such as Ptah pictures man holding up the planets and stars, man controling the stars. However a new religion came along of a hidden or of a one invisable God.The atlantains must have been a mixture of these beliefs, as Cayce said they were in a war with the children of belial.( any man or women who was consider wicked, worthless, lawless might be called a son or daughter of saten and evil (belial). Bringing about the belief of the seperation of the sons of gods, and the daughters of men.Thanks atlante for all your links

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docyabut
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posted 03-14-2004 13:52     Click Here to See the Profile for docyabut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I surmize that the Cain and Abel (el) story was about different religious beliefs.Who was this lord that did not accept Cain offerings?

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docyabut
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posted 03-15-2004 07:44     Click Here to See the Profile for docyabut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
?

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atalante
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posted 03-15-2004 08:38     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Docyabut,
I agree with what you just wrote. You seem to be suggesting that the 12th dynasty of Egypt, which suddenly launched the career of the "hidden" god Amon, was getting close to monotheism.

Aristotle explained this concept by presuming that some "unmoved mover" must have set the planets, Sun, and Moon in motion.

quote from: http://www.abu.nb.ca/Courses/GrPhil/PhilRel/Aristotle.htm
From his considerations of the nature of motion in Physics, in Book 8, Aristotle concludes that there must be a logically first unmoved mover in order to explain all other motion. In Physics 8.1, he argues that motion is eternal. Motion cannot begin without the prior existence of something to impart motion in another thing...
endquote

So perhaps when Ankenaten tried to replace Amon with Aten, Egypt was already in a nearly "monotheistic" mentality. Ankenaton wanted a "visible" Godhead; whereas the prieshood of Amon seemed to want a "hidden" supreme God.

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 03-16-2004).]

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docyabut
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posted 03-15-2004 21:51     Click Here to See the Profile for docyabut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Atlante, a little confuse here Wasn`t it Aton (the god who hides)? The other pharaohs ,including Amemhotep 3 had tradition that the pharaoh`s family ,among all the familes in Egypt were desended from Amom the sun ,chief god of all Egypt. however amemhotep 4 change his name to akhenten ,in honor of his one god whom he name Aton or Aten as in hebrew.

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atalante
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posted 03-16-2004 07:30     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Docyabut,
Here is a link to a google search about Amon, the hidden god. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=amon+myth+hidden&btnG=Google+Search

By contrast, Aton or Aten was the "disc" of the sun, which appears in the sky every day.

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atalante
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posted 03-16-2004 08:07     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Docyabut,
You commented on Abel, and the type of God which would be connected to him.

Sumerian literature has a parallel to the Cain and Abel story. In the Sumerian versions, a shepherd and a farmer are arguing, philosophically, about which one of them is more noble.

According to Young's Analytical Concordance of the bible, the name Abel means "fresh, grassy, meadow". Therefore the name abel is not regarded as theophoric (i.e. not composed from -el).

Since Abraham and his family were shepherds, the god of Genesis wanted to avenge the destruction of meadowland by farmers such as Cain.

According to Young's Analytical Concordance of the Bible, the name Cain means "acquisition". So I think a parallel can be cited about the lifestyles of Native Americans, whose culture did not understand that anyone could (or should) "own" land, at least not before the European farmers began settling in America.

But in the bible, there is also some wordplay involving KI-EN, the name "heaven-land" which Sumerians used to name their own land (Sumeria). Biblical Cain migrated east to KI-EN.

So Cain represents KI-EN, and is used in the bible to suggest that Sumerian culture originated around modern-Armenia, (ancient Aratta as it was called in Sumerian myths). Archaeologists typically use the term Halafian culture (ca 12,000-6000 BC), located in Kurdistan, as the culture which predated Sumeria.

Halafian culture invented clay pottery and was the first to domesticate dogs.

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docyabut
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posted 03-16-2004 11:31     Click Here to See the Profile for docyabut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bel is virtually the same name as Baal. The god Amon does not seem to be well hidden, for he is protrayed as many things.What do you think of Ahmed Osman explaination?

http://www.healthark.com/atonp.htm

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atalante
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posted 03-17-2004 19:01     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ahmed Osman may have confused the attributes of Aten and Amon.

Here is a link to a google search for Aten.
As you can see, the search finds many webpages which say that Aten was the sun-disc. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=aten+sun+disc&btnG=Google+Search

In fact, both Hebrew and Arabic languages use the word root ATN to mean "furnace or kiln".

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docyabut
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posted 03-17-2004 21:21     Click Here to See the Profile for docyabut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Atalante, Amon in hebrew means(master workmen, workman; builder). However I would not go as far as to say Tutanhamen was Jesus.

http://freespace.virgin.net/a.osman/#THE

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docyabut
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posted 03-17-2004 22:07     Click Here to See the Profile for docyabut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Gosh Atlante, allthough I have never read Osman`s books, it does appear Atkenten could have been Moses, however to go as far as Jesus being just a spiritual figure really goes to far.No wonder there is such controversy in the religous world.

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docyabut
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posted 03-17-2004 22:23     Click Here to See the Profile for docyabut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry riven, this topic should not have been on your thread.My apologies.

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atalante
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posted 03-19-2004 10:56     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Hyksos phenomenon in Egypt was a period of chaos. Based on independent research by David Rohl and Ahmed Osnan (i.e. they disagree with each other), it seems that the editor of our modern Hebrew Old Testament took one Exodus story from the 13th dynasty of Egypt, and blended it into another Exodus story from roughly the 18th dynasty of Egypt.

Thus the two traditions (probably called E and J, by modern biblical analysts) may have belonged in different centuries, before Ezra blended them into a syncretic form around 450 BC.

Here is a link which discusses this:
quote from: http://www.domainofman.com/ankhemmaat/integrat.html
"Conclusion
An attempt to integrate the research of Ahmed Osman and David Rohl strongly indicates that the accounts of the major Biblical characters, such as David, Solomon, Moses, Joseph, and Joshua, relied upon two primary historical persons as their sources, and that the resulting narratives represent a skillful harmonizing of the traditions of the elitist and highly educated Israelites of the Egyptian 18th Dynasty with the traditions of the Hebrews who left Egypt at the end of Egyptian 13th Dynasty and had arrived in Palestine before them. It is less clear why composite accounts would have been considered necessary by the Biblical authors/editors. Perhaps, the circumstances under which the Israelites had left Egypt and the bitterness caused by it had made it unacceptable to explicitly reveal all of the original historical associations in a linear/chronological fashion. Perhaps composite narratives were an acceptable form of preserving history in the 6th Century B.C. when both the story of Sesostris and the Biblical accounts were taking on their final forms. Perhaps it was the only means of reconciling multiple traditions when it may no longer have been certain, especially to late Biblical editors, that distinct sources were even involved. Perhaps the desperate need for a unified history at that time in the Jewish experience demanded a synthesis of all important traditions. And perhaps, history seemed to be repeating itself, and the compilers of the Bible perceived this as the hand of God in his relationship with Israel.

Having to deal with composite Biblical persons is not gratifying to the purist. But, the Biblical Moses does seem to be equally at home in the "eye for eye and tooth for a tooth" world of the Hammurabi Code (contemporary with the Egyptian 12th & 13th Dynasties), as he does in the time of the sweeping reforms of Akhenaten in the Egyptian 18th Dynasty. "
endquote

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docyabut
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posted 03-19-2004 15:51     Click Here to See the Profile for docyabut     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Atlante, we seem to be trying to find a connection between the greeks and atlantians however what of this connection to Egypt?

From your link-


Question: Was one of the breaks in faith by Semenkhare, a return to "Baal" worship, i.e., a return to kingly practices that Akhenaten had prohibited? One such practice has been interpreted by Sir Laurence Gardner in his Dec/Jan '99 Nexus article. If Gardner is correct, then this practice was likely resumed (not merely for spiritual purposes, but for a practical one) in order to protect the health of the Pharaoh in the midst of the rampant plague that was ravaging the entire Near East. Was the passage involving the worship of the golden calf at Mt. Sinai also symbolic of what was occurring in Semenkhare's Egypt. Later, Tutankhuam and Aye (Ephraim) were accused of the same transgression?

Question: Did Athens derive its name from Akhetaten (Aten)?

In Rohl's New Chronology, Akhenaten's reign would have occurred around 1000 B.C. Would this have made it contemporaneous with the emergence of the Oedipus legend in Greece, and the execution of Socrates?

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Riven
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posted 03-27-2004 01:00     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The 10 Kings of Atlantis.
by Riven and Atalante
(and a little help from our friends at AR!)
Atlas (high mountain,to bear>sky)
Nw Africa (Morocco,Berbers,Meshwesh,Pharusii).

Gadeirus (country plain,evergreen) (Greek=Eumeleus=rich in sheep)
Iberia,Spain,Portugal.

Ampheres (to rest,at both sides)
Italy,Sicily,Sardinia.

Evaemon (fortunate woman)
Algeria,Tunisia,Libya (Atalantes,Garamantes,Ammonium,Capsian)

Mneseus (from a Trojan)
Crete (Minos,Amnisus)

Autochthon (earthborn)
Peloponnesia,Attica,Cyclades.

Elassipus (horse riding)
Turkey (Phrygia,Ionia,Caria,Ephaesus)

Mestor (NNE middle)
Phoenicia,Syria (Byblos,Tyre)

Azaes (Heat)
Mauretania (Azas,Azamor)

Diaprepes (relating to God,highly distinguished)
Egypt,Nubia,Ethiopia.

The Founders

Poseidon (Sea God, Land God, EarthShaker) Cleito’s lover.

Evenor (primeval firstborn) Cleito’s Father

Leucippe (White Horse,Spartan surname) Cleito’s mother

Cleito (emperor’s favorite) Acropolis hill, Atlantis Royal City.

Based on Atlantean migration 10,840 bC (estimated 1,240 years of growth)
Countries Liberated after Great Battle and Atlantis sinking (2850-9600 bC)

ATLANTES-of Libyan people
ATLANTICUS-of Mount Atlas
ATLANTIAS-female
ATLANTIADES-male

The word Atlantis;
Re: Basque Translation by Riven

"The main evergreen forest is born a joyous miracle at dawn the abundant monument increases to unite the future arrival and remain loyal to the secret of creation."
www.mts.net/~perasa

Atalante proposed these names also mean a working class such as Diaprepes=Priestly or Mestor=Architect.

Docyabut proposed Athens derived from Akten, most likely, or vice versa according to lake trichonis. Socrates didn't die in 1000bC, unless time erroneous data.

Horushekmet should be spelt Horushekhmet,very hard to find.

Cleasterwood,use any map you like so respect same with merit.

Good paper on Boreas and the North wind by Georgeos and Maria. Very interesting this word Septentrisone. 7+3=10=1. There suggestion does imply a vast tract of land on the South side of the Mediterranean such as Morocco or in the Atlantic Ocean such as Amperes seabank site.

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atalante
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posted 03-27-2004 20:02     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I recently posted about the Egyptian goddess Taweret, who chained the Egyptian god Set near the North Celestial pole in the sky, and thus prevented "evil" from coming to Egypt from the North Pole.

Well, today I found a link which seems to give the "background" of that North Pole legend.

It seems that the original Great Goddess, or the Queen of Heaven, was the one who reigned from a position at the North Celestial Pole. Then at a later date, the masculine god Set was used to supersede the Queen of Heaven.

quote from: http://www.spinninglobe.net/goddessnames.htm
In Merlin Stone's When God Was a Woman,
Stone says, quoting Professor Walter Emery's Archaic Egypt, that the name of the Egyptian Goddess Isis is actually a Greek translation of the Egyptian name Au Set. The word "set" means "queen," and Au Set means"exceeding queen," according to Stone. Set, of course, is also a separate god who is closely identified with the serpent of darkness Zet, and is the sinister figure (in Plutarch's account of Egyptian mythology) who kills Osiris, the consort of Isis. Much earlier, according to the Encyclopedia Britannica, Set, Osiris, Horus, Isis and Nephthys are all identified as children of the earth god Keb and the sky goddess Nut, and represented five days added onto the yearly calendar.

Stone suggests that Au Set, the female predecessor to the later male god Set, was originally, in pre-dynastic times, the cobra Goddess Ua Zit, whose name hers so closely resembles. She makes a further connection between Ua Zit and uzait, the Egyptian word for "eye." The dynastic-age Goddess Ma'at, or Maet, whose name stands for order, truth or righteousness, was also known, variously, as "the eye of Horus, Ra or Ptah," and was the embodiment of the uraeus cobra, according to Stone. She comments, "She (Ua Zit, especially as Ma'at) seems to have been allowed to retain her qualities and nature so long as She was assigned to one of the male deities as his possession."
endquote


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Riven
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posted 04-04-2004 22:28     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Atlante;
Interesting theory on Seth and his origin from female as we know some of the strange tales embedded with Seth, or is that Sethia?

Kind of reminds me of Hathshephut and her hidden role as a man.

Here's some interesting figurines,a photo of 10 royalties.
http://www.shabtis.com/Amen-niwt-nakht.html

I'm looking into the circle of Egyptian Priests around that time of 570 bC.

Can you guess which statue I'm interested in?

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Boreas
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posted 04-05-2004 00:00     Click Here to See the Profile for Boreas     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How does the 10 tribes of Atlantis correspond with the "Altlandis-myth" of the 10 tropical kingdoms, developing during ice-time?

It is said that these 10 kings all where sons of the first family of humans and the original "Allfather" . As our human origin was paralleled and symbolised with the Sun, his first generation offsprings - procreating the respective populations - where called "rays". Thus the term "races".

Don`t you find any traces of that side of the Atlantis-story in the written Greek sources?!

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atalante
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posted 04-10-2004 09:35     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Riven,
It seems there is enough Egyptian source material to identify the "Egyptian" theme which Solon and Plato called Atlantis, especially the heiroglyphic NAME for Atlantis.

To demonstrate how this Atlantis thing got started, let's begin with a very brief review the origin of Egyptian society.

The Bible uses the name "Ham" to identify the earliest ancestor in northeast Africa. Ham's 3 children were Misraim (=Egypt), Cush (=Sudan), and Put ("bow" in Hebrew, and hence the Libyans who were also called the "9 bows" in ancient Egyptian writings.)

Nome 2 of ancient Egypt corresponds to the Ham of the Bible. Egyptians sometimes called Khem. In modern Arabic, it is named Ausim.

Here is a link which discusses Ausim/Ham/Khem. http://www.egyptsites.co.uk/lower/delta/central/ausim/ausim.html

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 04-10-2004).]

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atalante
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posted 04-10-2004 10:10     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The western part of the Nile delta is where Neith worship arose. This Neith worship had its focus in nomes 2, 3, and 5/4 of Egypt.

Flinders Petrie pointed out, long ago, that archaeologists have recovered a record of the so-called corn-Osiris era (predynastic era) when there were only 9 nomes in the Nile Delta. Here is a map showing how the Delta region developed. http://www.coinsofromanegypt.org/html/library/petrie/petrie_nomes_pl_II.htm

Nome 5 has always been called Sais. However, in Egypt's early dynastic era, Sais (nome 5) split apart and its southern half became a separate entity, called nome 4, whose Greek name was Prosopis (=acacia or mesquite tree).

The Prosopis tree fluorished in this region after goats became domesticated. Hard seeds of the acacia tree pass through the goat digestive system, and then are deposited in a fertilizing mound of goat manure.

In Egypt, the sacred tree of Neith was the acacia, much as in Greece the sacred tree of Athena was the olive tree.

When you study the maps in the link which I gave here, it becomes obvious that Nome 3 of ancient Egypt passed through a series of names. Originally nome 3 was called Libya. Then in the New Kingdom (=1550BC) it became known as Ament. In the Greek era, Alexander built Alexandria there. And in the Roman era, nome 3 was again called Libya.

In my opinion this clarifies what the Egyptian priests meant when they told Solon and Plato that Atlantis had been "greater than nome 3, Libya".

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atalante
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posted 04-10-2004 11:08     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Spiritwalker,

Unfortunately, I do not have a copy of that Merlin Stone's book (The link which I gave above reported that it was Plutarch who said that Set was chained up by Taweret.) My point at that time was the word similarities between the deities Set and AuSet (=Isis). This connection has also been pointed out by other authors, in addition to Merlin Stone.

It seems that there was a revolution in cosmology or cosmogyny when the patriarchal gods came into power. This was represented by the way Heaven comes into contact with Earthlings.

According to patriarchal Egypt, the heavens (= sky goddess Nut or Neith) ONLY came in contact with the Earth at 4 points on the horizon, which were called the "pillars of Shu".

However an alternate cosmology seems to have claimed that the Great Goddess of the Celestial North pole in the sky used a different form of "contact with earth" and was able to send messages continually to earth. Those messages resemble the phenomenon we modern people call "women's intuition".

The opposing sides in this mythical conflict have an uncany resemblance to the vocabulary of the Qumran Dead Sea Scrolls.

The Sons and Daughters of Sun Light (dawn and dusk deities, east and west) vs the Daughters of Darkness (north deities).

Patriarchal Egypt seems to have stationed Set near the North Pole and charged him with the mythical task of either blocking out the messages from the North Goddess, or at least scrambling those messages so severely that earthlings would get in trouble if they try to follow their "intuition".

The new cosmology seems to have focused on the issue of left-brain vs right brain. It was not tied to sexual divisions of "male vs female". The Egyptians themselves claimed that the goddess Ma'at was objective
"truth" and that she ignored all intuition. Likewize the planet Venus was a good goddess, because she was associated with eastern dawn, and western sunset (but not with the North).

Here is a link which says that Neith represented everything which is Beyond the Sunrise in the direction of east, and also everything that is Beyond the Sunset, in the direction of west.

quote from: http://www.geocities.com/skhmt_netjert/neith.html
footnote 11 ...St. Clair maintains it is this realm Neith personifies, for she is the complete sky which surrounds the upper (Nut) and lower (Nunet?) sky, and which exists beyond the horizon, and thereby beyond the skies themselves. Neith, then, is that portion of the cosmos which is not seen, and in which the sun is reborn daily, below the horizon (for the statement assigned to Neith is "I come at dawn and at sunset daily").
endquote

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 04-10-2004).]

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atalante
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posted 04-10-2004 15:28     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I will soon be ready to demonstrate the heiroglyphic name which corresponds to Atlantis.

But first I want to supply a bit more background material about the way ancient Egypt developed.

As I mentioned in a previous post, nome 2 is equal to the Biblical personage called Ham, the founder of humanity for northeast Africa.

After Neith's people (in nome 5, Sais) pastured their goats between nomes 5 and 2, this created an abundance of Acacia or mesquite trees, which gave desirable shade. So population increase led to formation of nome 4, which the Greeks called Prosopis (=acacia or mesquite tree).

Continued population increase (among nomes 2,4 and 5) led to a migration and/or conquest of lake Fayum in middle Egypt (which had been occupied by neolithic farmers since 5500 BC).

On maps of Middle and Southern Egypt, lake Fayum is called nome 21, and in the New Kingdom its name was Crocodilopolis, as shown on this set of maps. http://www.coinsofromanegypt.org/html/library/petrie/petrie_nomes_pl_IV.htm

A mythical explanation of this population expansion can be found in the claim that Neith had a crocodile son named Sobek.

However, Neith's territorial expansion was viewed as a threat by the nomes of Upper Egypt. So the Horus nomes of Upper Egypt sent their army to neutralize the Neith people who had moved to lake Fayum.

Upper Egypt was successful from a military standpoint, due to King Narmer. And then a joint government of North and South Egypt went into effect.

Initially several junior forms of the deity Horus were installed in the Delta region of Northern Egypt. (This syncretic religious mentality of multiple Horus-cults was similar to the local cults of Baal which sprang up around Syria.)

For example Horus of Khem (or Horus-khem) was installed in nome 2, which the ancient Egyptians called Khem.

And a Horus for nome 5 (the Sais nome) was installed at the city of Buto. This deity was known in Greek as Harpocrates (Horus the Younger).

At a later date, the town of Ausim (Khem) was abandoned at the time when King Menes founded nome 1 (Memphis) on the Eastern bank of the Nile River.

It seems that Horus-khem evolved into Ptah, who was the city deity at Memphis. (Riven mentioned this Horus-khem above, as the god hh who is memorialized in the heiroglyph of Ptah.)

However the delta region of Egypt continued to gain population and power faster than Upper Egypt. This was reflected in mythology by claiming that Isis left baby Horus at Buto (i.e. in the nome of Sais), while Isis went to Syro-Phoenicia to reconstitute Osiris. At roughly that same (mythical) era, Neith attended a council of the Egyptian gods and demanded that Horus-Buto should rule as king over all of Egypt.

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 04-10-2004).]

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atalante
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posted 04-10-2004 20:10     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Spiritwalker,
In my last couple of posts I have been trying to show that studying the "Nomes" of Egypt is a good background for explaining how Solon and Plato obtained their theme of Atlantis.

If I made that background seem complex, please forgive me. I wanted it to be simple.

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atalante
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posted 04-10-2004 20:23     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I regard Nome 3 of Egypt as the critical issue in regard to Atlantis.

In the predynastic nome lists it was called Libya. Then during the New Kingdom (ca 1550 BC) it became known as Ament (=the West). Then the greek Alexander the Great invaded and founded Alexandria in Ament, but on the shore of the Mediterranean Sea. In Roman times, Nome 3 was again called by its original name, Libya.

In the earliest times, Nome 3 was the strongest competitor of Neith. Neith's people moved south along the river Nile, rather than trying to conquor nome 3.

Here is a link which discusses the various nomes of Egypt. If you want to see the heiroglyph for Atlantis, please study the following link's heiroglyph "symbol" for Nome 3. (You need to scroll down about one-third of the way through the link to reach the discussion of Nome 3.)

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/nomes.htm

This link tells us that the primary place in nome 3 can be spelled in English as: Hut-Ihyt. But Hut-Ihyt can be a bit hard to pronounce in English.

So let's use a website which converts phoentic sounds into heiroglyphs. Please go to the following link, and enter the name ia, then click on the "send" button to let the robot website draw a heiroglyph for that sequence of letters. http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/nomhiero.html

Isn't that special !!! The letters "ia" convert into the heiroglyphic symbol of nome 3, which was BOTH Libya and Ament (the land of the West) in Egyptian mythology.

I presume that "ia" is the standard way to pronounce "Ihyt".

But it also seems that Solon worked from the longer phrase "Hut-Ihyt", which he transcribed into Greek as At-lant(is).

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 04-10-2004).]

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Riven
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posted 04-12-2004 11:32     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Excellent work Atalante!

In your heiroglyphic translator link, type in Naucratis then Atlantis. Now type in Ia,as you said,then type Sais.
http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/nomhiero.html

Note the similiarities?

[This message has been edited by Riven (edited 04-12-2004).]

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