I am posting it here because it ties in with my last two posts above (about neolithic people hopping from Illyria to Italy around 6000 BC). http://www.unige.ch/lettres/archeo/introduction_seminaire/neolithique/runnels.html

Greek literature usually called it the reign of the pelasgians.

Archaeologists presume it spread from Anatolia, to Crete, to the Peloponese, to Illyria, and ultimately it reached Italy.
The archaeologists suggest dates around 7500 BC to 6000 BC for this expansion.

Geographically speaking, Egypt lies on the outskirts of that expansion.

Fortunately, the primitive records of Egypt have preserved some info about that movement. The ancient Egyptian myths describe it as the arrival (probably around 6000-5500 BC) of Osiris into Egypt, bringing his barley grain so Egyptians could make beer, etc.

The oldest known neolithic sites in Egypt's Fayyum (and/or the Nile Delta) date to roughly 5500 BC.

One of the primary reasons why this movement ceased expanding is that it had been driven by distributing Melos obsidian.

New commercial sources of obsidian were discovered on three islands near Sicily around 5500 BC. So after 5500 BC. the central and western regions of the Mediterranean developed independently from the eastern Med.

But we should not be confused into thinking that the pelasgians were a patriarchal people. The Osiris legends were maintained during a very patriarchal period. But even so, it is obvious that Osiris was said to visit Egypt only briefly, and subsequently he LEFT EGYPT TO BE RULED BY HIS SISTER ISIS, whose name means "the lady".

Herodotus says the pelasgians worshipped Hera (whose name means "the Chosen One").

The primal goddess of Crete was known as "the lady of the mountain".

By extension, this was the same as NIN-LIL, a sumerian goddess whose name means "lady goddess of the mound". And it also matches the Phrygian goddess named Cybele, whose name means "lady mountain".

Skylax is around 4-600bC and some of his
perspectives I really enjoyed were;

Iberians-2 islands called Gadeira.
1 island=1 day voyage from pillars.

Emporion, Greek settlement mixed with
Massaliots (Marseilles,France)
7days/7nights from Iberia.

Ligyans 2days 1night from Emporion to
Rhodanos river

Ligyes from Rhodanos river upto Antion.
Hellenic harbour city, Massalia.
4days 4nights from Rhodanos to Antion.

Tyrrhenoi (Etruscan) Antion to Rome
4days 4 nights

with an island in the middle called
Aithalia, and many other deserted
islands.

Riven note* this island is very close to
meaning Fatherland also. Perhaps Aithalia
could mean "Father of Islands".

Latins had a monument of Elpenor.

From here the silphion grow of acre;and it
stretches along from Chersonese through the
interior as far as Hesperides,a voyage beside land of nearly 1500 stades approximately. Aphrodisias island,an
anchorage; Naustathmos,a harbour. Voyage from harbour to Cyrene eighty stades. And Cyrene is in the interior. And these are all-purpose harbours. And there are other refuges under islets,and thereare anchorage and many headlands in the territory between. And out of the harbour of Cyrene as far as the harbour by Barke, 500 stades.

And it is a place 18 fathoms deep, sheer in a circle, nowhere having a descent; and it is of two stades every way, not less, width and length. This is shaded with trees woven in one another, to the densest possible. The trees are lotus, apple-trees of all kinds, pmegranate-trees,peartrees,strawberries,mullberries,vines,myrtles,bay-trees,ivy,olive-trees,wild olive-trees,almond-trees,walnut-trees.
Among the settlements which have not been
told is [and],by the garden, Ampelos[Vine};Apios[Pear] (it exchanges 30
stades);Chersonese;very many gardens;
Zenertis; Taucheira; Kaukalos's village;
Hesperides,a city with a harbour, and a river upon the city, Ekkeios. By these settlements from the Cherroneses of the Antides,some are of the Cyrenaeans,others of the Barkaians as far as Hesperides.

And as one sails into the Syrtis from the
Hesperides,there are Herakles' Banks; and
adjacent to these are Drepanon, the three
Pontiai islands; then among these some are
called Leukai[white Islands]

Bint means "daughter" in Arabic/semitic.
And the Egyptian goddess of the desert was Sekhmet (the eye of Ra). The heiroglypic name Sekhmet means the "mighty one, or powerful one".

Prehistoric Desert Town Found in Western Sahara
Thu Aug 19, 2004 01:52 PM ET
Printer Friendly | Email Article | Reprints |

RABAT (Reuters) - The remains of a prehistoric town believed to date back 15,000 years and belong to an ancient Berber civilization have been discovered in Western Sahara, Moroccan state media said on Thursday.
A team of Moroccan scientists stumbled across the sand-covered ruins of the town Arghilas deep in the desert of the Morocco-administered territory.

The remains of a place of worship, houses and a necropolis, as well as columns and rock engravings depicting animals, were found at the site near the town of Aousserd in northeastern Western Sahara.

The isolated area is known to be rich in prehistoric rock engravings but experts said the discovery could be significant if proven that the ruins were of Berber origin as this civilization is believed to date back only some 9,000 years.

"It appears that scientists have come up with the 15,000-years estimate judging by the style of the engravings and the theme of the drawings," Mustapha Ouachi, a Rabat-based Berber historian, told Reuters.

Berbers are the original inhabitants of North Africa before Arabs came to spread Islam in the seventh century.

The population of Western Sahara, seized by Morocco in 1975 when former colonial power Spain pulled out, are mostly of Berber and Arab descent.
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=scienceNews&storyID=6021742

Perhaps hau-nebu is a parallel to the hittite word ahhiyawa.

quote from: http://www.groupsrv.com/science/viewtopic.php?t=11098&view=next
"BONTTY, Mónica M., The Haunebu, GM 145 (1995), 45-58.

HAw-nb.w is a word that appeared in Egyptian texts from the VIth Dynasty until
the Roman Period over 160 times. It is usually translated as "Aegean Islander"
based on the translation given in the Canopus Decree and the Rosetta Stone.
Different scholars have assigned it to specific geographic regions, but the
documentation is inconsistent with these interpretations. The author argues
that HAw-nb.w means "everything beyond" and that it appears consistently in
texts which show the submission of the different populations to the Egyptian
king and the dominance of pharaoh over the entire universe. It also appears in
texts (such as in titles) to denote a "foreigner", or "outsider". It does not
seem to indicate a specific geographic location. Author "
endquote

Hercules and Athena work together, and chase the Giants west to the heel of Italy.

As you may be aware, the there is a gulf of Taranto and a plain of Taranto in the heel of Italy.

If the Linear B language lacked a letter "l", while substituting a letter "r", then it would not be surprising for the fugitive giants to turn into Atarantes/Atalantes, after they began living in Hesperia (=both the "west", and also "Italy").

Gaia is sometimes said to have generated the Giants without a husband. So this gigantomachy may have taken place BEFORE the patriarchal era.

Perhaps any mentions of Zeus may be anachronisms in the gigantomachy.

She matches up quite well with a group of known people who were subjugated at a moderately early date.

The Helots, from the region called Messina, are Cleito. (This is not a perfectly obvious cognate, since the h/c sounds do not interchange in Indo-European languanges. But let me point out that Cleito was NOT an Indo-European name at 9000 BC.)

Let me explain some background material which substantiates Helot=Cleito.

Poseidon, as we have been noting based on Herodotus, is basically a Libyan god. His SISTER Benthesickyme (=Egyptian Sekhmet) lives in Libya in the myth of Eumolpus and the Eleusinian war.

And Poseidon's WIFE Gaia lives in Libya with Poseidon during the 11th labor of Hercules: the quest for the Golden apples of the Hesperides.

When the Hellenes sweep south around 1500 BC, they bring Zeus to Crete with them. And at that time Zeus symbolically marries Hera, who previously has been the Great Goddess of Middle Minoan Crete.

As a "wedding" gift to Hera, the Libyan goddess Gaia sends a few of the Golden apples of the Hesperides to Hera, Zeus, and Athena. (The point of this action is that by conquoring Middle Minoan Crete, Zeus and his Indo-Europeans now have access to the western sea lanes, from which Middle Minoan Crete has been importing "golden apples".

But Poseidon, the husband of Gaia, reacts in a different way. (note: Both Poseidon and Zeus have now married an "earth mother".)

Poseidon sneaks over to the Peloponese and marries Cleito and her Helots. This is the island and/or peninsula where the daughters of Atlas live (Pleiades).

Then Zeus and Poseidon get into a squbble and decide to divide the "EARTH" between themselves. I hope you see the humor in this situation, since BOTH Zeus and Poseidon were married to an Earth Goddess before the squabble arose.

Poseidon grabs the southwest 2/3 of the Peloponese for his territory.

But Athena resists the advances of Poseidon, and asserts control over the northeast corner of the Peloponese, in addition to controlling Attica.

When a truce is declared, and Poseidon is alotted the sea, he leads some Pleiad people (Meropes) west into the ocean, from their homebase at Corinth.

So now you know. Cleito has a good probability of representing the Helots. http://www.fact-index.com/h/he/helot.html

Several names for the mother Goddess of Crete are known, based on Linear B inscriptions.
http://www.timelessmyths.com/classical/mother.html#Potnia

It is self-evident that the Pythoness, whom Apollo superceded at the oracle of Delphi, was originally devoted to the mother goddess Potnia.

And it is widely assumed that the goddess of Crete was named Atana-potnia. http://www.timelessmyths.com/classical/mother.html#Atana

Two corollaries to this identification can be mentioned.

Atana in Linear B is an equivalent to the titaness Dione in classical Greek myths.

And "mater theia" (= "MOTHER GODDESS" in Linear B) is an inverted precursor to the epithet "mother of the Gods" which classical myths used to describe Rhea.

I see your point with Cleito and the Peloponnese where Poseidon "sneaked over" to. Brilliant deduction Watson!

If we consider Atlantis as the beginning,with Zeus and Poseidon both married to Earth women. Then it would seem that Gaia was Cleito and Leucippe was Hera. This seems backwards because Leucippe was Cleito's mother and Gaia was long before.

So Gaia should be Leucippe and perhaps Hera would be Cleito.

And Zeus would be Evanor.

Gaia symbolizing Leucippe makes sense because they are both the "First" Earth Mothers.

In that sense Hera would be Cleito, but I don't agree with this because Cleito should also be from Libya somewhere where Gaia was during the 11th labor as you said Atalante.

Also because the Lake Tritonis area is the single most significant area relating to Atlantis in my studies.

What I think we're dealing with here is that we're talking rather, about the different ages of the Kings of Atlantis in these myths and not really the beginning of Atlantis where it came from, the Atlantic Ocean.

Evanor,Leucippe and Cleito are from the original Altantis. Poseidon(The Ocean God) moved Cleito to a hill from Atlantis.

This could denote that Cleito had moved into the Atalantes region from the great disaster and flood and giving rise to the Poseidon myths and Athena.

I feel that Poseidon and Gaia for the most part, should be left as Gods.

Cleito in reality, should be married to Atlas, a Human and fourth descendent of Atlantis, son of Cleito.......fathered by.......... Evanor.

Realisticaly, this makes sense and makes me think of the story in the Bible when the daughters impared their father(Abraham?)with alcohol and went into him to retain the bloodlines for no men were worthy.

So Evenor and Leucippe started Atlantis and Cleito/Atlas colonized Libya/Africa from the west.

thanks for that post on the ancient Saharan town from 15000 years ago. Maybe people will listen when I try to tell them that civilizations did not start in the middle east.

Where did they start?

Nowhere, but everywhere.

You have 5 billion years to think about it!

Every 10,000 years man is technologicaly advanced.

"This event took place around the 3rd inundation before Deucalion, which was probably around 6482 bC and not 2350 bC as the time for the great flood according to biblical scholars."

I would argue the date is off - but only by -300 years.

"Just off the coast of Norway there is a 1,000 foot high rock cliff... named Storegga. Storegga is at the edge of the continental shelf where the bottom drops out on the fishing boat depth-sounders. On the seafloor here, the bottom dropped out about 8,200 years ago in a massive landslide.

"The landslide was one of the greatest in Earth's history... Blocks of mud perhaps 20 miles long, a couple of miles wide and 150 feet high rushed down the slope. More than 1,000 cubic miles of sediment and rock shifted. The slide ran out 500 miles to the northwest, north of Iceland, where it met the Mid-Atlantic Ridge and was diverted south.

"The whole slide happened in a very short time... perhaps a few days, perhaps a couple of hours."

Discover, March 2004 - Robert Kunzig

Such a cataclysm would have easily generated monster waves and surges throughout the Atlantic. Monster waves are generated when slower moving waves are caught up by a succession of faster waves. The result is "an almost vertical wall of water which towers up to 120 feet in height before collapsing on itself."

From another older article written before, mostly interested in the quote from Horton:

"This flooding was a pivotal event in British prehistory and Britain's status as an island dates from this time. The initial consequences were technological, cultural and perhaps even genetic. The introduction of new continental weapons technology - new forms of arrow heads - was delayed for 2,000 years. And subsequently the introduction of agriculture and monumental architecture was delayed for 1,000 years.

"By ensuring that Britain lagged behind the continent, the drowning of the land-link was the cause of a pre-historic "two-speed" Europe.

"Scientists involved in the research believe that, as well as helping us to understand the past, their work also acts as a warning for the future.

"Dr Ben Horton, a leading member of the University of Durham's Sea Level Research Unit, said: "Our investigations have revealed for the first time that large areas of land can be flooded very rapidly."

From the Independent, 2000

It could be argued that "Storegga" was caused by the rebound of landmasses in the north following the withdrawal of the glacial caps, the article in Discover points to a different culprit altogether.

Methane Hydrate. The byproduct of a primeval ecosystem that predates our oxygen based one. Earth is far stranger than one could imagine.

ps - currently reading "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Diamond. Good stuff, but someone needs to come out with "Guns, Germs, Steel and Really Nasty Catastrophes!" to get it right.

What really fascinates me is how at first I arrive at these conclusions, and later, it slowly falls into place. It's not like I already knew about events around 6482bC and conformed a theory to match, rather, 6482 bC was the result of studying the Eye of Ra myth and how it relates to planets, and signs popup related to that time.

In any way, we can see a lot of indications pointing around this date that are too many to be easily dismissed, Mt.Vesuvius,Mt Hekla,Bosphorous straite, flood stories,planetary alignments,nations disappearing like in Egypt,N.W Africa and Iberia, and now the great mudslide you indicated John. What I have been trying to say is that there were two separate and distinct events related to Atlantis.

The Continental extinction in several stages upto 6482bC, and later, around 3450 bC, the final war near Atranto and the Peloponnese which was mastered by Atlas from the Lake Tritonis regions which Egypt also battled in leaving behind the Gebel-Arak knife and the Narmer Palette indicating the end of the 10 Pre-Dynastic Kings.

Archaeologicaly,also,as discussed previously in Tribes, we can see a mass disappearance of Libyo-Egyptian cultures around 6-7,000 bC.

I do not, of course say that this is to be taken as factual, rather, very controversial in terms of evolutionary quadrants and for all of us to take a closer look around this time.

Once again thank you for the info John, now if we could only get a professional opinion from Catastrophe.

I try to find the physical evidence as best I can, and then go find if there are any mythical markers from the oral tradition.

The complete opposite of Riven's approach! However it does appear to match up.

The dates I work off of using GISP2 data (the ice core samplings,) as best as I can without a proper scientific background and matching up Mayewski's conclusions with Baillie's are:

2354-2345 BC Umm al Binni? Not verified.
1628 - 1623 BC Thera - Mediterranean.
1159-1141 BC one of the Hekla - Iceland eruptions? Time of the Sea People?
208 - 204 BC Honestly baffled. No idea. Maybe Hekla again. This "might" tie in with the start of the Cimbri/Teutonic migrations.
536-545 AD Kapi Krakatau, Sumatra/Java
1784-1786 AD Skaptarjokull, Iceland
1815-1817 Tambora, Sumatra/Java

Of these seven, five were definitely terrestrial.

The 2354-45 BC is an unknown. the Umm al Binni crater is rather difficult to confirm, no archaeologist or geologist in his right mind would go poking around Southern Iraq right now (no political comments please!) and the only reason we know of the crater was because of Saddam draining the marshes.

I always found this phrase from the Epic of Gilgamesh horrifying:

"the earth splits like an earthenware pot."

While events like Tunguska and Kaali are probably more frequent than we imagine, the mythical record and the physical record are harder to determine. Tunguska didn't leave a crater - and unless someone out there is far better at reading those numerical charts from GISP2 and other such projects than I, don't know if they left a chemical/mineral trace in the ice cores. I know traces of iridium show up for the super large meteors such as Chixculub - but that's way out of our timeframe.

A methane hydrate eruption (something no one has thought to look for until the last few years) may be even harder to trace in the ice cores for the simple reason no one's looked at any ice core sample for such a specific trace! Short of something physically provable such as Storegga.

One thing mentioned in the Discovery article about methane hydrate eruptions is not only the tidal waves, but the complete extinction of aquatic life in the area where it occurs. Paturi and Spanuth both point out that of old the Celtic name for the North Sea was Marimarus - the Greek thalassa nekron - Roman mare mortuum. To be specific though, I think they were referring to the 1159-1141 time period - so these eruptions could be on a smaller scale and could happen on a more frequent basis. Either way, the North Sea was called the Sea of the Dead for a reason.

Best I can come up with for now.

[This message has been edited by John_Sweat (edited 08-27-2004).]

And the footsteps of Great Atlanteans, countless in their resonance, cross the musky planks on the Bridge to Atlantis.

Here is a quartet of events, for which I would like to know the date uncertainties.

1)Storegga 6000-5800 BC (tsunami)
2)Vesuvius 5960 BC +/- 100 yrs (supervolcano erruption)
3)Black Sea, 5500 BC (high water bursts the east end of Propontus Sea, and rapidly floods the Black Sea basin with salt water.
4) Worldwide event 5500 BC (end of globaly rising sea level, which had started
ca.15,000 BC)

Perhaps these 4 events happenned simultaneously.

Have you noticed that TRiTonis is cognate with TaRTessos?

In Roman myths Italus may be cognate with Solon's Atlas. (King Italus gave his name to Italy, and he had a son named Sikel who conquored Sicily.)

hmmmmm. Italus=Atlas, and Atranto=Atlantis, and Sikel=Egyptian Sea People. (and Telegonos3=neo-Telchines)

Here is how the Carlos Parada website covers this entangled situation in his webpage for Calypso3.

quote from: http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Calypso3.html
Telegonus 3 is otherwise called son of Odysseus and Circe. It is said that when Telegonus 3 learned from Circe that he was a son of Odysseus, he sailed in search of him, but having come to Ithaca, Telegonus 3 killed his father by mistake. He married Penelope, his father's wife, and had by her a son Italus, who called the country Italy after himself.
endquote

Soon after that, Circe transported Penelope (ex-wife of Odysseus) to the Islands of the Blest, along with Telegonus3 (=neo-Telchines).

Here is another insight from Carlos Parada. Hermes (son of Poseidon, and Grandson of the Peloponesian Atlas) is the foreign trade ambassador for the Peloponese. And Hermes grumbles about having to fly/sail over so much open sea to reach Calypso's Isle.

quote again from: http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Calypso3.html
Now, all immortals know each other, even though they may live apart, and that is why no one had to introduce Hermes when he appeared in Calypso 3's cave after his long journey across the sea. The god refreshed himself with the ambrosia that Calypso 3 put on the table, drinking a cup of red nectar to it. However, despite the kind reception, Hermes would have preferred to be elsewhere, for as he himself said, between Olympus and Ogygia, there was nothing except the vast expanse of the sea, and even a god likes to find a city on the way. But as neither mortals nor immortals can evade Zeus' will, he travelled to this otherwise lovely place, and delivered to the dainty goddess the final decision about this case:

"... Now Zeus bids you to send Odysseus off without delay. He is not doomed to end his days on this island, away from all his friends. On the contrary, he is destined to see them yet, to reach his native land, and to step beneath the high roof of his house." [Hermes to Calypso 3. Homer, Odyssey 5.112]
endquote

"Perhaps these 4 events happened simultaneously."

Goodness, who knows.

For the climatic stress periods I mentioned I was working off
of notes that are over a year old - so I think it's time to revisit
GISP2 and see if I can do a better job of making sense of the data. As
mentioned I have not worked past the 2300 BC period for
whatever reason.

I'll see if I can dig further back and see if I can convince someone
like Mayewski to respond - I think asking about methane hydrate detection
might pique his curiosity.

For a quick interview of GISP2, I found this little bit by Mayewski:
http://www.agu.org/revgeophys/mayews01/mayews01.html

Also, since not everyone has the issue of Discovery I was referring to, I found
a similar document - check page four for mention of the Storegga Event.
http://halloween.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Publish/methane.pdf

Any votes for renaming it?

The Storegga Seaslide?
The Storegga Tsunami?
The Big Muddy - sorry, couldn't resist

[This message has been edited by John_Sweat (edited 08-30-2004).]

Most people think Tartessos,including historians like Homer Herodotus and friends
designate southern Spain or the Guadelaquivir region as the site for Tartessos.

In a balmy 800 bC, Gades was formed by the Phoenicians, and theres a good reason why they chose that name because of the letter G or Guas that dominate that region.

So, how is it that this part should be termed Tartessos?

This seems to go against the words of Socrates language lesson and you would envision this region also having a GA or GAU type of name, like, GArtessos or GUAtessos, etymologicaly speaking.

So wouldn't it suffice to say dare I, that any people named TA, would have come from historically the Estuary region of the TAGUS river in mid Portugal?

And within a grasp of breath, couldn't South Portugal and it's Atlantic coast with Titan cliffs have been Tartessos?

Beyond reasonable doubt.

note**^ Adobe PDF file.
http://www.dgeo.uevora.pt/projectos/Docs/artigoMozzi.pdf

And here is a link from the BBC which says the tsunami has been carbon dated at 5800 BC, based on damage that it caused along the coast of Scotland. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/sci_tech/2001/glasgow_2001/1531049.stm

Able was I Elba.

Originally it was called Ilva later becoming Elba.

The Greeks in the early 5-8th cent bC called this island AETHALIA (fire,spark)

History has shown that the island of Elba has always been a theatre of important events; all mediterranean civilizations throught the ages have left a trace ot their passages.

Apparently at Porto Argoo the actual Capo Bianco that Jason stopped over in his search for the Golden fleece.

The Etruscans found a source of enormous wealth in Elbe's mines and ore producing regions which they exported to the South mediterranean.

The glow of the charcoal furnaces smelting day and night gave rise to the name of Aethalia.
http://www.world66.com/europe/italy/tuscany/elba/history

MAP http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/italy_ancient_north.jpg

Here we find an excellent source for material for weapons and a relationship with the gulf of Atranto and the Straite of Messinna.

Seems that there may be a new history book written on the Battle of Atranto or The War of Messinna.

It is not illness, but sadness.

Sadness for the world today.
Sadness for the tragedy of 9/11
Sadness for the Hurricane victims.
Sadness for the debauchery.
Sadness for the future.
Sadness for Atlantis.
Sadness for our Forums.
Sadness for Happiness
Happiness for Sadness.

May God grant Peace to all nations and eternal life to the innocent victims.

I, too, am glad to see you posting here again. I would think it a poorer place if either you, or Atalante either, for that matter,weren't here. The dedication of both of you is clear and personally, I believe each of you consistently bring forth some of the best material on the subject.

P.S. I found a great book! Dictionary of Mythology, Folklore, & Symbols. It has really helped me in my research. Santa, can I have my own copy, please?

An unbroken chain of 3000 priestesses/queens (e.g. 3000 * 20 years per generation = 60,000 years) could be remembered fondly among "some faithful group" of the Atlanteans. This group could believe their origin was the time and place when a "really lost paradise continent (=the Arabian Peninsula)" was a lush verdent region during one of the earth's ice ages, ca 75,000 BC, shortly after the supervolcano of Toba erupted.

But not all Atlanteans would believe such a story. A large faction among the Atlanteans would ridicule the notion of "mitochondrial Eve".

Nonetheless, Atlantis of 15,000 BC would be in contact with 8 isolated groups of human European societies, all persevering in the very coldest phase of an ice age, and living in the regions which the 21st century AD designates as the homelands of the "8 European daughters/haplogroups" of mitochondrial Eve.

map showing the haplogroup homelands: http://www.oxfordancestors.com/images/pdf_sevengardens1.pdf

quote about the 8 ancestral groups from: http://www.oxfordancestors.com/your-maternal.html

THE EUROPEAN CLANS --- The Seven [or 8] Daughters of Eve

The clan of Ursula (Latin for she-bear) is the oldest of the seven native European clans. It was founded around 45,000 years ago [probably near Greece] by the first modern humans, Homo sapiens, as they established themselves in Europe. Today, about 11% of modern Europeans are the direct maternal descendants of Ursula. They come from all parts of Europe, but the clan is particularly well represented in western Britain and Scandinavia.

The clan of Xenia (Greek for hospitable) is the second oldest of the seven native European clans. It was founded 25,000 years ago by the second wave of modern humans, Homo sapiens, who established themselves in Europe, just prior to the coldest part of the last Ice Age. Today around 7% of native Europeans are in the clan of Xenia. Within the clan, three distinct branches fan out over Europe. One is still largely confined to Eastern Europe while the other two have spread further to the West into central Europe and as far as France and Britain. About 1% of Native Americans are also in the clan of Xenia.

The clan of Helena (Greek for light) is by far the largest and most successful of the seven native clans with 41% of Europeans belonging to one of its many branches. It began 20,000 years ago with the birth of Helena somewhere in the valleys of the Dordogne and the Vezere, in south-central France. The clan is widespread throughout all parts of Europe, but reaches its highest frequency among the Basque people of northern Spain and southern France.

The clan of Velda (Scandinavian for ruler) is the smallest of the seven clans containing only about 4% of native Europeans. Velda lived 17,000 years ago in the limestone hills of Cantabria in northwest Spain. Her descendants are found nowadays mainly in western and northern Europe and are surprisingly frequent among the Saami people of Finland and Northern Norway.

The clan of Tara (Gaelic for rocky hill) includes slightly fewer than 10% of modern Europeans. Its many branches are widely distributed throughout southern and western Europe with particularly high concentrations in Ireland and the west of Britain. Tara herself lived 17,000 years ago in the northwest of Italy among the hills of Tuscany and along the estuary of the river Arno.

The clan of Katrine (Greek for pure) is a medium sized clan with 10% of Europeans among its membership. Katrine herself lived 15,000 years ago in the wooded plains of northeast Italy, now flooded by the Adriatic, and among the southern foothills of the Alps. Her descendants are still there in numbers, but have also spread throughout central and northern Europe.

The clan of Jasmine (Persian for flower) is the second largest of the seven European clans after Helena and is the only one to have its origins outside Europe. Jasmine and her descendants, who now make up 12% of Europeans, were among the first farmers and brought the agricultural revolution to Europe from the Middle East around 8,500 years ago.

The clan of Ulrike (German for Mistress of All) is not among the original "Seven Daughters of Eve" clans, but with just under 2% of Europeans among its members, it has a claim to being included among the numerically important clans. Ulrike lived about 18,000 years ago in the cold refuges of the Ukraine at the northern limits of human habitation. Though Ulrike's descendants are nowhere common, the clan is found today mainly in the east and north of Europe with particularly high concentrations in Scandinavia and the Baltic states.
endquote

Due to the passionate inputs here on Atlantis Rising from Boreas, Rockessence, etc., I suggest that the clan of Ulrike should live near the "Wolfcave" of Finland, and should personify the arctic people of Bock saga.

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 09-18-2004).]

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The clan of Tara (Gaelic for rocky hill) includes slightly fewer than 10% of modern Europeans. Its many branches are widely distributed throughout southern and western Europe with particularly high concentrations in Ireland and the west of Britain. Tara herself lived 17,000 years ago in the northwest of Italy among the hills of Tuscany and along the estuary of the river Arno.

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You throw an interesting curve ball there Atalante.

In search of Tartessos, here you mention a solid reason to see her roots which makes more sense than Iberia and most likely I would suspect at this moment, that this Tribe of Tara should also be linked to the Tagus River.

This also suggests that Tartessos was an early form of Etruscans or Appenine cultures.

Which would relate to Ampheres.

The NW Tribe of Velda you mentioned would be the Gadeiros cultures which interestingly, means King as you stated.

The clan of Katrine[feminim} could have resulted from the migration of Evaemon[fortunate woman] from Libya(Athena) across the promontory straite to Sicily/Malta and into Atranto upto NE Italy.

Fascinating that this all takes place 15-17,000 years ago.

In Cleasterwood's topic about her Atlantis fiction, you posted comment to me about the difference between 10 male kings descending from Atlas/Atlantis and female leaders in the earlier era of humanity.

I will respond to your post here, because Cleasterwood said she doesn't think DNA migration data would blend into her theme.

First, I want to comment on Evenor and Leucippe. Plato said that pair had lived at Atlantis before Poseidon arrived.

How and why did they get there? Plato does not give his readers any clues.

According to Plato, they just woke up one day and discovered they were on an island: one pair of humans; with no gods, no goddesses, a few fresh-water river spirits (Nereids), and no boats.

I would like an Atlantis novel to give a better explanation for Evenor and Leucippe than what Plato gave.

And now in response to your second point:
The period of 1500-1200 BC still seems the most likely time for the legendary War between Poseidon/Atlantis on the one side, and Zeus/Athena on the other side.

A power vaccuum occurred in the Greek world when (non-Indo European) Middle Minoan Crete collapsed. Crete was hit by a tsunami after the caldera of Thera collapsed (ca 1500 BC).

Filling that power vaccuum was the basis for the Greek myth about Zeus and Poseidon dividing up the world among themselves. (They granted Hades a very tiny allotment -- a hole in the ground in Asia Minor, as an entrance to the underworld.)

But the Mycenaean Greeks, who actually emerged as the dominent Hellenic people during 1500-1200 BC, DID NOT HAVE ANY SYSTEMATIC MYTHOLOGY. So the Mycenaeans did not invent this mythical struggle of Poseidon/Atlantis vs. Zeus/Athena.

And what is even more important, Poseidon was conquored and forced to be subservient to the Hellenists ca 1200 BC.

It was the Dorians, or the "return of the Heraclides" ca. 1100 BC, who introduced systematic mythology to Hellenic Greece.

The Heraclides (personified by Phaestus 2)had been expelled from Sicyon about one generation before the Trojan War, when Argos peacefully assumed political control over Sicyon. Previously, Sicyon had been a center of Poseidon-worship among the Hellenistic Greeks. But then Mycenae's king Aggamemnon told Sicyon that Poseidon had to support the Achaeans during the Trojan War. Sicyon felt that the rulers of Mycenae had sinned by intermarrying with the descendents of Pelops/Smyrna, and that this was somehow propelling the Greeks into an unholy war against their Trojan ancestors. Since diplomacy was failing, Mycenae's king Aggamemnon conquored Sicyon by force during the reign of Hippolytus 5.

The expelled Heraclides then went to Crete and acted as warlords, terrorizing the communities of Crete. A recent TV documentary by Discovery Channel (titled The Aegean Apocalypse) explained some recent findings about that era. Eighty refuge communities were built as citadels at the top of the mountains of Crete, all around 1200 BC. The TV documentary proposed that it was the Sea Peoples who were terrorizing Crete at that time.

But Greek mythology lets us be more specific about who the thugs were. Greek mythology claims the Heraclides were "ruling" Crete during that reign of Terror (1200-1125 BC). The Heraclides tried unsuccesfully to return to the Peloponnese one generation after the Trojan War. But eventually three generations after the Trojan War, mythology reveals that the Heraclides returned in full force, destroyed every major coastal city of the Peloponnese, and occupied the lands they had conquored.

Near the midpoint of the Heraclides' stay on Crete, Ramsess III of Egypt endured a bitter attack (1176 BC) by the Sea Peoples. Egypt's crushing defeat of the Sea peoples under Ramses III probably convinced both the Heraclides and Sea Peoples that they needed to stop aggravating a superpower like Egypt, and focus on attacking a weaker target, namely the Peloponnese.

When we look at the oldest clan, Ursula , it is 45,000 years ago.

That leaves a gap of 105,000 years to Mitochondrial Eve over in Africa which gives us a good time frame for the land Bridge from Tunisia into Sicily/Malta.

Ursula conforms to the settlements in Peleponnesia and Attica 45,000 years ago.

The clan of Helena became the largest clan near S.France extending into the Basque regions 20,000 years ago.

We know that genetic DNA was at it's mutation peak 15000 years ago which would lend to an explanation for the dense populous of Helena because of the Ice Age and interestingly enough a larger westward movement from Ursula.

According to this we see a much older than 9000 year history of the Greeks as compared to Critias and the Egyptian Priest quite evidently which we also know from archaeology.

Curiously this demonstrates a strong lack of prehistory on both the Egyptian and Greek allies which also lends more credibility to an older Atlantis state, perhaps not Royal City though. Given their lack of resources and limited learning this is understandable.

Of course you know I don't agree with the mideast bringing agriculture into western Europe as declared by Oxford.

I live in Canada which we could compare to Europe with vast Evergreens, Wheat fields,Barley, and such and much more produce than barren lands. We know the Aterians of 40,000 bC were advanced in weaponry and in my view anyone who was making string and tying it to a bow to shoot arrows reveals a form of intelligence that I believe is enough proof to show that they also had the intelligence to plant and cultivate leaven bread or mash beans,flour and dig up potatos, and to label them as hunter gatherers would be an insult to injury.

I would agree with a form of agriculture introduced by foreign cultures from the mideast, but not the origination of agriculture in respect to others that superceded them regardless of what archaeology says.

I suggest its important to notice that mtDNA does not seem to demonstrate the invasions of the Indo-Europeans, Cimerians, and Scythians. (For example, the clan of Xenia from the steppes of Russia, is now respresented by only 3% of European women.)

Y chromosome data demonstrates that most European men came from a central Asian ancestral background. Therefore the great migrations of proto-history were male-dominated.

The migrating males seem to have killed off most of the early-western men, and then the emigrants from the east tended to marry the western women.

For example, the women's clan of Ursula used up perhaps 5,000 years while traveling from Greece to Britain. But history books tell us that Cimmerian males travelled much faster: starting near Russia at 700 BC and reaching Wales (Britain) by 350 BC.

When the women's clan of Jasmine brought the "neolithic package" of (sheep, barley, and bread wheat) to Greece around 6500 BC, the older clan of Ursula chose to retreat slowly into central Europe, moving toward the northwest.

Cro-Magnon women may have belonged to the clan of Helena, if Oxford is correct in placing that clan's origin near the Dordonne valleys of France.

Archaeologists estimate the palace was built around 1900 B.C., was damaged in 1700 B.C. and then rebuilt shortly after, according to archaeologist Anna Michailidou's book "Knossos: A Complete Guide to the Palace of Knossos." It's easy to assume that conquerors from overseas might have been to blame. The Middle East, Africa and much of Europe had easy access to the island.
http://www.tribnet.com/entertainment/story/5467525p-5405589c.html

Archaeologists think the palace was rarely fortified with soldiers, mainly because Minos was said to have maintained a navy unmatched throughout the world.

On the other hand, Zeus had carried Europa to Crete while Zeus was diguised as a normal bull.

So I get the impression that king Minos was siding with Zeus, when Minos symbolically kept the (white) bull.

When Zeus change lo onto a white cow, he did on a island.