"In short, apart from the morphological features of this area, the geographic position of the Finnish Troas fits Homer's directions like a glove. Actually, this explains why a «thick fog» often fell on those fighting on the Trojan plain, and Ulysses's sea is never as bright as that of the Greek islands, but always «dark-wine» and «misty». As we travel through Homer's world, we experience the harsh weather which is typical of the Northern world. Everywhere in the two poems the weather, with its fog, wind, rain, cold temperatures and snow (which falls on the plains and even out to sea), has little in common with the Mediterranean climate; moreover, sun and warm temperatures are hardly ever mentioned.
There are countless examples of this; for instance, when Ulysses recalls an episode of the Trojan War:

«The night was bad, after the north wind dropped,
and freezing; then the snow began to fall like icy frost
and ice congealed on our shields» (Od., XIV, 475-477).

In a word, most of the time the weather is unsettled, so much so that a bronze-clad fighting warrior invokes a cloudless sky during the battle (Il., XVII, 643-646). We are worlds away from the torrid Anatolian lowlands. The way in which Homer's characters are dressed is in perfect keeping with this kind of climate. In the sailing season they wear tunics and heavy cloaks which they never remove, not even during banquets. This attire corresponds exactly to the remains of clothing found in Bronze Age Danish graves, down to such details as the metal brooch which pinned the cloak at the shoulder (Od., XIX, 226). Moreover, this fits in perfectly with what Tacitus states on Germanic clothing:

«The suit for everyone is a cape with a buckle»
(«sagum fibula consertum»; Germania, 17, 1)."

Also:

"The "climatic optimum" reached its peak around 2500 B. C. and began to drop around 2000 B. C. ("Sub-Boreal phase"), until it came to an end some centuries later. It is highly likely that this was the cause that obliged the Achaeans to move down to the Mediterranean for this reason. They probably followed the Dnieper river down to the Black Sea, as the Vikings (whose culture is, in many ways, quite similar) did many centuries later. The Mycenaean civilisation, which did not originate in Greece, was thus born and went on to flourish from the 16th century B. C., soon after the change in North European climate.

The migrants took their epos and geography along with them and attributed the same names they had left behind in their lost homeland to the various places where they eventually settled. This heritage was immortalized by the Homeric poems and Greek mythology (the latter lost the memory of the great migration from the North probably after the collapse of the Mycenaean civilization, around the 12th century B. C., but kept a vague memory of its "hyperborean" links). Moreover, they renamed with Baltic names not only the new countries where they settled, but also other Mediterranean regions, such as Libya, Crete and Egypt, thus creating an enormous "geographical misunderstanding" which has lasted until now. The above-mentioned transpositions of Northern place-names were certainly encouraged, if not suggested, by a certain similarity (which the Mycenaeans realized owing to their inclination for seafaring) between Baltic geography and that of the Aegean: we only have to think of the analogy Öland-Euboea or Zealand-Peloponnese (where they were obliged to force the concept of island in order to maintain the original layout). The increasing presence of Greek-speaking populations in the Mediterranean basin, with their cultural and trade supremacy, later consolidated this phenomenon, from the time of Mycenaean civilization to the Hellenistic-Roman period."

"Here we reach the region of Livonia, which is presently divided between Esthonia and Latvia. We could assume a relationship with Homeric Libya, which the Odyssey mentions in two episodes. One of these tells of a ship heading for Libya, which was sailing"in the open sea off Crete" (Od. XIV, 300). Although vague, this description fits Livonia's position in relation to the Polish coast, i.e. "Baltic Crete". It probably refers to the shipping routes followed in the southern Baltic during the early Bronze Age. The name of Livonia derives from an ancient Baltic people, which is almost extinct today. They are known as the Livonians, who were farmers and stockbreeders, attaching special importance to livestock. Their newlyweds traditionally receive domestic animals as wedding presents; these animals also "play a leading role in funerals" (Treccani, see "Livi"). This all fits in very well with a passage where Homer describes Libya as a land of stockbreeders, where "flocks lamb three times in the course of a year./ Neither the owner nor the sheperd ever lack/ cheese, meat or sweet milk,/ but sheep provide plentiful milk all the time"(Od.IV, 86-89). If today's Livonians really were the descendants of the Homeric Libyans, then they would be an extraordinary example of cultural persistance, from the Early Bronze Age to the modern era. The name of ancient Libya still echoes in the city of Liepaja (western Latvia), which is called Libava in Russian and Libau in German.
Once the Achaeans migrated to southern Europe, they must have identified Baltic "Libya" with an African land (if this is so, then we should not find Egyptian documents mentioning this name before the 2nd millennium BC). Perhaps Libyans settled here when migrating south. On the other hand, we find the geographic counterpart of northern Libya in the area of Lebanon, which is on the eastern side of the Mediterranean region."

City of Poseidon Volume 57 Number 1, January/February 2004
by Tom Gidwitz

A mile away, in a 15-foot-deep pit, project archaeologists have been uncovering a large Early Bronze Age house more than 4,000 years old. The pit is below the water table, and every night it floods with a foot and a half of water.

Katsonopoulou is a stylish woman with wavy red hair and the indomitable will of a general laying siege. In her 20-year-long search for Helike, a lost Classical Greek city and cult center of Poseidon destroyed by an earthquake and tidal wave in 373 B.C.

Helike was an economic powerhouse that flourished for centuries. It was the seat of the Dodekapolis, the original 12 cities of the Achaean League, and, in the Iliad, Homer included it among the contingent under Agamemnon's command at the siege of Troy. Its citizens built colonies at Sybaris in southern Italy and Priene on the Asia Minor coast, spreading the city's distinctive cult of Poseidon, god of earthquakes and the sea, to the frontiers of the Greek world.

It was only natural that Helike would be the center of a Poseidon cult, for this region is one of the most active earthquake zones in Europe. There are earthquake faults galore, chief among them the Helike Fault, which forms a visible crack between the mountain wall and the coastal plain.

For five days, during the winter of 373 B.C., wrote third-century A.D. Roman rhetorician Aelian, Helike citizens watched in amazement as beetles, snakes, mice, and "every other creature of that kind" fled the coastal city for higher ground. On the fifth night, the earthquake struck, the coastal plain sank, and as the city crumbled the sea rushed in. A towering tidal wave struck, killing everyone. At dawn the next day 2,000 men from neighboring cities rushed to the rescue but found only the tips of the trees in Poseidon's sacred grove poking above the waves.

Here's their website;
http://www.helike.org/

quote:

---

"For the sea was raised by an earthquake and it submerged Helike, and also the temple of Poseidon...And Eratosthenes says that he himself saw the place, and that the ferrymen said there was a bronze Poseidon in the Strait,standing erect holding a hippocamp in his hand,which was perilous for those who fished with nets. --Strabo.

---

Of course Atalante, I agree with your suggestion of older colonies from Thessaly moving in to mingle with the Pelopelasgians.

According to our good friend Carlos Parada and the Greek myths, the oldest Chronology goes to the Sicyons.
http://www.sikyon.com/Sicyon/sicyon_egpg1.html

Ironically, they also have an early king named Apis 2 around 1750 bC.

Sicyon, also is only 11 miles northwest of Corinth.

Next in Parada's digs, comes Phoroneus with the Argos and Mycenae.

What get's me is why he places Crete around 1350 bC with Europa. Obviously because these dates go by Greek literature for we know about Minos around 1900 bC and Egypt around 3100 bC which he places with Io.

However, in the Greek sense, Egypt appears to be ironically a 1000 years before Athens according to Parada.

So the real dark ages in a sense would have been between the time of Deukalion, 1450 bC upto 2000 bC where the PelopelasgioSicyons, were in the light ages along with Crete and Egypt.

According to Greek Mythological literature.

Map of Sicyon. http://www.sikyon.com/Sicyon/smapold_eg.html

Ampheres.(at rest,on both sides)

"A few years ago there were discovered in Sicily the remains of a dead elephant - it was a very dead elephant, it passed away thousands of years ago in a cave near Syracuse...

Ogygos, in the sense should be the link to this Atlantean King, Autochthon for they say he was before Cecrops.

For the period before the [Olympiadic reckoning], the Attic chronographical calculation is evidently from Ogyges (who is believed by them to have been autochthonous, in whose reign took place the great and first inundation in Attica, when Phoroneus was king of the Argives, as Akousilaos [Akousilaos FGrH #2 F23] tells) even up to the First Olympiad . . . one thousand and twenty years is covered . . . . Such things those who relate the affairs of the Athenians [tell]: Hellanikos as well as Philochoros [Philochoros FGrH #328 F92], who wrote Atthides, and Kastor who wrote on Syrian affairs [Kastor, FGrH #250 F7], and Thallos [Thallos, FGrH #256 F4], and the universal historian Diodoros whose work is the Bibliotheke . . . and Alexander Polyhistor [FGrH #273 F101] . . . . After Ogyges, however, on account of the extensive devastation from the flood, what is now Attica remained without a king for 189 years, until Kekrops. Philochoros says that the [king] after Ogygos, Aktaios (or some version of that name), did not exist.
http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/hellanikos.html

We also learn another lesson from that website;

Panathenaia: Demosthenes in the Philippics [4. 35]: a twofold Panathenaia is held at Athens, one each and every year, and another in every fifth year, which are also called "the Great [Panathenaia]". Isocrates in the Panathenaic Oration [12, 17]: Erichthonios the son of Poseidon was the first to celebrate the festival, as Hellanikos remarks, and Androtion as well [Androtion, FGrH #324 F2], each of them in Book I of his Atthis. Before this time it was called the Athenaia, as Ister has made clear in Book III of his Attika [Ister, FGrH #334 F4.].

Critias:

"Another puzzling technology that proves the superior metallurgical skill of the Atlanteans is the "orichalch" that Plato mentions as covering the walls of Atlantis. Rather than the foolish idea of "mountain copper" Ń for copper ores, as indeed most metals, normally come from the mountains Ń the true etym of the name is as in the Latin spelling aurichalcum, that is, "golden copper", or "golden bronze". In reality the word pertains to brass, an alloy of copper and zinc that resembles gold, just as Plato states. Brass was only developed again in modern times, due to insuperable technological difficulties. And the secret of its technology was passed on by the Hindus, who got it directly from Atlantis, where else? The fact that Plato knew of it, and attributed its technology to Atlantis can, hence, hardly be doubted.

If you go to Parada's webpage for Crete, there is a slightly older history for Crete.

Parada does NOT mention the collpse of the caldera at Thera, which happened around 1470 BC. (sending out a tsunami which ended the "Middle" Minoan phase of Crete). But then Parada begins to give a history for Crete, as if archaeology's Middle Minoan era had never existed. http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Crete.html

According to Parada:
The first three kings of Crete came from Arcadia, and were sons of the evil Lycaon2.
They settled in the western side of Crete, which archaeologists say was the only part of Crete not destroyed by the tsunami of 1470 BC.

Then Hellenic sailors, descendents of Aeolus, arrived in Crete from the north (presumably accompanied by some Dorians, if you happen to believe that Dorians did anything before the Trojan war).

Those Aeolians and Dorians arrived in Crete at the EXACT time when Sisyphus, son of Aeolus, founded Corinth.

I regard these two events (Crete and Corinth) as branches of a single invasion carried out by Aeolians and Dorians.

As soon as the Dorians arrived in Crete, they became the kings of Crete. This tells me that the Indo-European Dorians immediately suppressed the previous 3 rulers of Crete, who were from Arcadia/Lycaon2.

Parada places the story about Lycaon2 on a separate webpage. But suffice it to say that Zeus supported his Indo-European Hellenes by throwing thunderbolts at Lycaon2, and ruining the kingdom of Arcadia.

Thus it seems that Zeus arrived in Crete, basically, with the invading Aeolians and Dorians. This is logical, since the capital of Zeus has always been in his nothern homeland, at Mount Olympus. (And the notion that Zeus might have been born in a cave on Crete is a smokescreen, because that cave had previously belonged to the primordial matriarchal mother Goddess of Crete.)

As soon as the Dorian kings had secured their hold on Crete, they encouraged Zeus to import Europa from the Phoenicians.

"You left out King Ogyge, who was "the king of Atlantis, the island which once existed between Libya and Sicily, and which was submerged". (Reference to the History of Libia by a Theran, the Historian Eumalos of Cyrene, partially translated into italian by Borzesi - see Malta: Echoes of Platos Island).
"Ogyge was the king who governed the famous island at the time of the horrible inundation."

Ogyges was the founder and king of Thebes in Greece. I have never seen a reference before that there was a King Ogyges of Atlantis. I would dispute that Ogyges was Atlas.

Would accept the argument that Ogyges was a common name or title. Does it have any etymological meaning (such as my name John: English form of Johannes, which was the Latin form of the Greek name Ioannes, itself derived from the Hebrew name Yochanan meaning "YAHWEH is gracious"?) There was also Gyges the Phrygian King.

quote from Gaster and others concerning floods:

An earlier flood was reported to have occurred in the time of Ogyges, founder and king of Thebes. The flood covered the whole world and was so devastating that the country remained without kings until the reign of Cecrops.

Nannacus, king of Phrygia, lived before the time of Deucalion and foresaw that he and all people would perish in a coming flood. He and the Phrygians lamented bitterly, hence the old proverb about "weeping like (or for) Nannacus." After the deluge had destroyed all humanity, Zeus commanded Prometheus and Athena to fashion mud images, and Zeus summoned winds to breathe life into them. The place where they were made is called Iconium after these images. [Frazer, p. 155]

"Many great deluges have taken place during the nine thousand years" since Athens and Atlantis were preeminent. Destruction by fire and other catastrophes was also common. In these floods, water rose from below, destroying city dwellers but not mountain people. The floods, especially the third great flood before Deucalion, washed away most of Athens' fertile soil. [Plato, "Timaeus" 22, "Critias" 111-112]

On another note were the Trojans of Phrygian/Greek ancestry? Dardanus was a ruler in Greece before one of the floods

Arcadian:
Dardanus, first king of Arcadia, was driven from his land by a great flood which submerged the lowlands, rendering them unfit for cultivation. The people retreated to the mountains, but they soon decided that the land left was not enough to support them all. Some stayed with Dimas, son of Dardanus, as their king; Dardanus led the rest to the island of Samothrace. [Frazer, p. 163]

Samothrace:
The sea rose when the barriers dividing the Black Sea from the Mediterranean burst, releasing waters from the Black Sea in a great torrent that washed over part of the coast of Asia and the lowlands of Samothrace. The survivors on Samothrace retreated to the mountains and prayed for deliverance. On being saved, they set up monuments to the event and built alters on which to continue sacrifices through the ages. Fishermen still occasionally draw up parts of stone columns in their nets, signs of cities drowned in the sea. [Frazer, pp. 167-168]

Here is a link to an article which may interest you. http://www.unige.ch/lettres/archeo/introduction_seminaire/neolithique/runnels.html
The article probably does not use the name "Minyans". But it does comment that "fields" were not plowed or cultivated until roughly the time of the Dimini culture (minyans). Before that era, people were farming in swamps and wetlands.

Based on this info, its easy to see why so many cultures retained myths about ancient floods rising up in their wetlands.

This is an interesting coincidence.

Solar calendars and lunar calendars can be synchronized with substantial accuracy if we use these 5.5 year super-cycles.

one lunar year is defined as 12 moons;
so 11 lunar years contain 3898 days
(11 * 12 * 29.53 days/month = 3898 days)

meanwhile 11 solar years contain 4017.6 days
(11 * 365.24 days/year)

The discrepancy between the lunar and solar year would be resolved, with +/- 0.04% accuracy, by inserting a 59-day government festival (i.e. two lunar months of 29.53 days each) into the lunar time-count, alternately at the end of 5 years and 6 years.

From a long term pespective this system is making the average calendar year equal to 365.1 days.

Romania and Ukraine are currently having a territorial dispute over White Island. They think it may have been Atlantis. Homer portrayed it as the original "fatherland" of Achaean heroes. The Mahabarata called it Atala (white island). The author of the following webpage suggests it may have been connected to the Hamangia culture (5000-2900 BC).

When Russian archaeologists researched White Island, they claimed to to have found a series of impressive submerged Atlantean structures (and a small oil deposit).

quote from: http://www.tomrad.ro/iserpi/ENGLISH.HTM

The Serpents’ Island is mentioned under the name of Leuce (Alba, in ancient Greek) in myths and legends. According to them, the great warrior Achilles is said to have had a temple and several edifices to accommodate the priests on the island. The legends seem to carry a grain of truth as the ruins of the famous temple dedicated to Achilles were found by captain Kritziky in 1823. Square in shape, with the side of 29.87 meters, the building is great. The temple dedicated to Achilles was erected east of the sanctuary. The architecture of the construction and of the other ruins found on the island is specific to the epoch called Cyclopean, resembling the masonry found in Thessaly and Thrace: defense walls constructed without mortar, using enormous blocks of uncut stone; the white blocks of limestone impress the eye. The Achilles temple was a work of art, judging by the fragments found. It also had many chambers for the operation of the oracle, as well as for the storage of the gifts that were dedicated to the hero.

Publius Ovidius Naso, the Roman poet banished to Tomis, mentions the island in his verse and Maximus of Tyr in his Discussions says that “Achilles lives on an island right in front of the Ister, in the Pontus Euxinus. It is there that the Achilles’ temple and altars may be found.” Ptolemy, in his Guide to Geography mentions that the “islands lying near Moesia Inferior, in that part of the Pontus Euxinus that I have spoken of are Boristene (i.e., at the mouth of the Dnieper) and the island of Achilles or Leuce.”

Gheorghe I. Brătianu, in his work The Black Sea from the Origins to the Ottoman Conquest wrote about the presence of ancient Ionian and Milesian civilizations on the littoral of the Black Sea: “One of the oldest landing sites is that on the White island, Leuke or Achilleis, a small rocky place that rises from the sea at some distance from the mouth of the Danube. This is called today the Serpents’ Island. This place of call for the Milet sailors was garnered with a sanctuary dedicated to Achilles Pentarches, protector of navigation and commerce. Their history, reconstructed by means of numerous dedicatory inscriptions found during archaeological excavations show close ties between these ports along the Black Sea coast, which retain both the main characteristics of the Greek urban civilization and traits of the autochthonous population, consisting of Getae or Scythians.”

The following idea is also suggested by legend: the ancient Greeks also called this island Makaron, that is, “belonging to the fortunate” and some linguists interpreted the word “Atlantis” as “Fortune”. This may explain their being associated with each other; besides that, the Soviet archaeologists found a series of impressive submerged ruins that were attributed to the Atlantians. One must also remember the Hamangia culture found near Cernavoda, with clay statuettes dating from 5 000-2 900 BC, which may be linked to this ancient civilization.
endquote

Generally,and also according to the translations of the 10 Kings, I am of the opinion that the Atlanteans settled the entire Mediterranean, so as we also see a lot of references to Atlantean characteristics can be found in the mediterranean. The story also tells us that there were Greeks battling the Atlanteans, which as Atalante seems to propose that the real ancient Greeks were from around Thessaly, or the Minyans as you mention.
We know that the Peloponnesians belonged to Poseidon originally which would make sense with the Atlanteans colonizing there. Perhaps the interbreeding of Poseidon Peloponnesians with Norther Thessalians, resulted in the Pelasgians?

Cities in ancient Greece were built in fertile plains and close to a high ground (Acropolis) for protection and they were all walled (except Sparta). In the big and fertile Boeotian plain there were numerous ones, among them Orchomenos and Thebes, very ancient cities which became big powers.
People were living here, from Neolithic ages and beyond. This was the land of the aboriginal (autochthones) Ectenians, the oldest inhabitants of Boeotia and their famous king Ogyges.
Around 2500 BC, the territory, especially the north Boeotia, was occupied by the so-called Minyans. This little known people, whose origin was Kolchis, build the city of Orchomenos, famous later for its riches and culture. Orchomenos, in the archaic age was controlling a very large area and it was one of the first cities to issue coins in Greece. Minyans undertook the construction of the colossal project to drain and irrigate the plane of kopais, which overflowing from the rivers Kiphisos and Melanas and it seems they succeeded. For this purpose they constructed a canal 133 feet wide and 16 feet deep, extending for about 42 kilometers. With the passing of time though, they lost power and political supremacy passed to Thebes.
Around 1500 BC, the legendary hero Kadmos with an unknown number of Phoenicians came and founded Thebes. On a high ground, the so-called later Kadmeia, he build a palace and probably introduced the Phoenician alphabetical writing, although the art was not used, until centuries later.
In the 13th century, the city was totally destroyed and this confirms the legend of "The Seven against Thebes", when Adrastos with the Epigonoi conquered Thebes and razed the city.
About 1200 BC, people coming from Arne in Thessaly and from territories from the mount Boeon in Epirus, occupied the place. This complex mixture of cultural and racial body came in intermarriage with the local population, creating the future Boeotians.
It is in this archaic age, that the legends belong, from which the Attic tragic poets drew up their subjects.

From Homer's Odyssey we learn about the two brothers Amphion and Zethos, as the founders of Thebes and that it was them, who built the big walls of the city, but according to Apollodoros and others, it was Kadmos, whose sister Europa was carried by Zeus, disguised as a bull, from Egypt to Crete, where she bore her three children Minos, Rhadamanthos and Surpedon.

There are numerous myths about the accomplishments of Kadmos. He killed the Dragon (an offspring of Ares), who was guarding the fountain Areia. Godess Athena told him to sow the dragon's teeth into the earth and from them, they sprang armed men (Sparti), who killed each other, surviving only five (Chthonius, Echion, Hyperenor, Pelorus, Udaeus). From these five, the noble families of Thebes arose, calling themselves Sparti.
http://www.sikyon.com/Thebes/history_eg.html

As you can see from this article that again we see comparisons with Atlantis, walled structures, building of canals, irrigations of plains, Kadmos slaying a dragon like Herkales did in his pursuit of the Golden Apples, etc...

What I also think quite relevant is that Herakles slayed the Libyan Giant named Antaeus.

Antaeus in that sense,along with the Atlas Mts, would serve to have been Atlas.

Antaeus 1, son either of Poseidon or of Gaia. He is the ruler of Libya who used to kill strangers by forcing them to wrestle. He became stronger when he touched the Earth, so Heracles 1 killed him by holding him in the air [Apd.2.5.11; Dio.4.17.4; Hyg.Fab.31; Plu.The.11.1].

In addendum to your "White Island" post, two of the predominant cultures hovering around Thessaly derive from the Cris-Starcevo culture(7-6k bC) evolving into the Carpato-Danubian cultures(5000 bC) where the Hamangia cultures are from.

Accordingly, the Danube river is credited with the first civilizing river of mankind while the Cris-Starcevo culures and the Carpatho-Danubian cultures relate to the first Homo-Sapiens in this area.
http://www.dacia.org/Dacian_Virtual_Museum/The_First/the_first.html
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/culture/arcnat/harsova/en/dobro1.htm

These cultures include:

The drainage system incorporated earthen dikes up to 150 feet thick and reinforced at critical areas with 6 foot thick stone walls.

Most impressive was the drainage system, the canal mentioned by Riven emptied into an artifical katavothrai or underground tunnel under Mount Ptoon - over a mile in length and 200 feet deep in spots.

All these impressive works fell into ruin somehow at the end of the Bronze Age. In mythology, Herakles is held responsible.

Concerning Thebes - using Troy as an example where they break levels of habitation into Troy I, II, VIa etc - Thebes also seems to fit this model with Amphion and Zethos being the founders of Thebes I. Thebes I was razed by the native Phlegyans and then refounded by yet another outsider Kadmos.

Both the original Thebes and the works of the Minyans happened in the archaic age and indicate a commonality?

The Tomb of Amphion and Zethos at Thebes was excavated by Greek archaeologist Theodore Spyropoulos in 1971. Supposedly as he dug away at the hill, Spyropoulos realized what he was exacavating was a pyramid.

Some have argued what we have here is evidence of an Egyptian presence and we can use the story of Danaos as evidence. But that's not what I want to argue.

Because... on the other end of the Mediterranean on the Island of Minorca, there are similar burial structures of the same age called navetas. They are stone structures that Felix Paturi describes as an "upturned ship" and they also are "pyramidal."

Looking at photos of the Greek Pyramids (the one I have at my disposal is near the city of Argos) and the Navetas of Minorca, they definitely are similar in size, construction and shape. I personally don't think they're Egyptian inspired.

The megalithic culture was western or Atlantean, and here is evidence of very similar culture in Greece. Also we know the Minyans were of a nautical bent.

So the pros are:

1. Megalithic tombs.
2. Hydraulic civilization
3. Extremely wealthy
4. Sea farers
5. Established by outsiders?

What could mess up my flimsy theory though is the following statement by Riven.

"This little known people, whose origin was Kolchis" - if that's the case then none of this holds together - come to think of it - I've seen megalithic ruins associated with Colchis, but nothing as similar as what I described. Could it be a mis-translation of Iolcus - the home of Jason? It's in the same region as Thebes, Orchomenos?

--------

Atalante - looking at my atlas I see "ostriv Zmiinyi" about 25 miles east of the Mouths of the Danube - since that is the only island I'm guessing Serpent Island. It would be interesting to uncover confirmation of what the Russians claim is submerged around the island. I don't know where Ballard was looking, I'll have to do some research.

[This message has been edited by John_Sweat (edited 08-15-2004).]

[This message has been edited by John_Sweat (edited 08-15-2004).]

From: http://www.admiral.ru/hp/wacfund/

Maybe Minyans were from Colchis, not Western Mediterranean.

Background: Dolmens, the huge ruins of ancient megalithic chamber tombs, are the most striking, widespread and still mysterious relics of the prehistoric Western Caucasus - a far-away southeastern frontier of Europe. The more than 3.000 megalithic monuments registered to date fall within an approximate fifteen hundred-year span. In spite of the variety of Caucasian monuments, they show strong similarities with megaliths from different parts of Europe and Asia, like the Iberian Peninsula, France, Great Britain, Ireland, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Israel and India. A range of hypotheses have been put forward to explain these similarities and the building of megaliths on the whole, but still it remains unclear. A great pity is that the study of Caucasian megaliths is that, for a long period, it has only focused on the architectural features, to the detriment of other aspects of the phenomenon.The proposed project is an attempt to bridge the gap that separates the Caucasian megaliths from their cultural and ecological contexts, taking advantage of comparative and contextual analysis.

10,000,000 BC: Mediterranean Sea is formed.

1,000,000 BC: First Ice Age

Europeans as Foraging Peoples: 1,000,000 - 5,000 BC
850,000-700,000 BC: Earliest evidence of human life in Europe: Homo erectus.

50,000-60,000 BC: Europe is inhabited by Neanderthals.

35,000-10,000 BC: Paleolithic Art

c. 30,000 to 25,000 BC: Woman of Willendorf
c. 27,000 to 23,000 BC: Dolni Vestonice
25,000 - 12,000 BC: Venus Figures
18,000 BC: Chauvet cave, France
15,000 BC: Lascaux cave paintings
c. 14,000 to 10,000 BC: Altamira Cave Paintings
12,000 to 8,000 BC: The Ice Age
Europeans as Agricultural Peoples: 5,000 - 2,000 BC
4,500 BC: Neolithic Revolution in Western and Central Europe
4,000 BC: The Culture of Vra
3,500 BC: Indo-European MigrationIndia and Central Asia Chronology
2,000 BC: Stonehenge
2,250 BC: Copper working

Now a brief on their world chronology;

Evolution of the Hominids: 5,000,000 to 25,000 BC:
5,000,000 -1,000,000 BC: Australopithecus
2,200,000 - 1,600,000 BC: Homo habilis
1,600,000 - 500,000 BC: Homo erectus
Stone artifacts and weapons
500,000 - 80,000 BC: Homo sapiens
100,000 - 33,000 BC: Homo neanderthalensis
Ice Ages
Stone tools
125,000: Homo sapiens sapiens

The Paleolithic Period:
Beginnings of Human culture: 30,000 - 10,000 BC
c. 30,000 to 25,000 BC: Woman of Willendorf
c. 27,000 to 23,000 BC: Dolni Vestonice
25,000 - 12,000 BC: Venus Figures
18,000 BC: Chauvet cave, France
15,000 BC: Lascaux cave paintings
c. 14,000 to 10,000 BC: Altamira Cave Paintings

The Neolithic Period:
The Agricultural Revolution and the Beginnings of Settled Existence: 10,000 BC - 5,500 BC
10,000 BC: First agricultural villages
10,000 BC: Invention of the bow and arrow
10,000 BC: Dogs and reindeer are domesticated
10,000 BC: Beginnings of settled agriculture
10,000 BC: Earliest pottery (Japan)
8,000 BC: Sheep and goats are domesticated
8,000 BC: Beginnings of rice cultivation in East Asia
8, 500 BC: Jericho is founded
6, 000 BC: Village of Ban Po in China
5,500 BC: Catal Huyuk
500 BC to AD 400: Adena and Hopewell Cultures
ca. 4000 BC: The Culture of Vra
ca. 2000 BC: Stonehenge
AD 700 to 1731: Mississippian Culture

Primary Urbanization:
The First Cities: 3,300 BC- AD 400
6,000 BC: Jericho
3,300 BC: First Sumerian cities
3100 BC: Beginnings of Egyptian civilization
2500 BC: Harappan Civilization
1800 BC: Shang dynasty in China
1200 BC: Olmec culture in Mesoamerica
AD 400: Jenne-Jeno in Nigeria

Don't you think it's funny how from all this they try to tell you that the mideast was the start of civilizations? Yet in their chronology list some of the best hints of organized societies come from NWestern Europe and pottery from japan around 10k bC?

To me, cave paintings and pottery dictate a urban type of society that dwelled and lived together forming the backbones of the first civilizations,and if they could paint and produce artwork and pottery, then they probably had a good idea about farming practises, obviously, just as your fingers teach you to count and discover the secret of 10, and as you realize a flower grows,then drops seeds. Even a Cave Man could figure that out, regardless of speech.

Interesting to note that one of the most densly associated neolithic cultures in western Europe was around Northern Portugal. This being a dead center link between Stonehenge, Altamira Caves and Alentejo stone works.

There is also evidence that Neanderthals lived around Gibraltar as well.

This dense Northern culture would have also formed some of the first cultures in NWestern Europe along with the Basques of 40,000 bC.

The downward merging of these cultures along with the northward merging of Africans(Natufian,Capsians, later Moors),evolved into the first Western European cultures. Later, around 3000 bC the Iberians move in to be dominated by the Celts,Phoenicians,Carthagenians and the Romans who built most of the Greatest Structures in Spain. Meanwhile another interesting fact through the Ages, is that Portugal was always unique and independent regardless of who ruled Iberia.

Another interesting thing is that Ireland has a history and folklore complete with King Lists that goes back to 1699bC.

Remember that according to DNA research that Man had reached his peak of mutation around 15000 bC. This is also a good indication,as is also in America and S.America, that man, was already "WIDESPREAD".

The oldest woman(Lucy) originates in N.E.Africa around Ethiopia and the Hadar region.
Homo-Habilis as we know can be found in E.Africa.
Homp-Erectus is also found in E.Africa and in China.

Perhaps these first cultures came from the lost Lemuria, or what I would much rather call,respectvely, Pacifica, leaving traces of island migrations(60k bC) and Java and Peking man along Indonesia and into the Erythraean Sea into Kush. Why are their eyes squinty? Because they see the sunrise first!

Now get this;

The earliest forms of HomoSapiens around 300,000 bC, can be found near Petra-lona in North Eastern Greece and a partial skull OVER 300,000 years old;was found in the cave of Arago in Tautavel in southern France. This would mingle nicely with migration patterns along the ancient Ister River.

So, would it be fair to say that an Atlantis Continental Island existed around this time and they migrated through North Portugal initially with the Homo-Sapien and Neanderthal genes in turn populating the East American/S.American coasts? I would tend to agree that the initial lifeforming belt started between +/- 30 degrees of the Equator. This is also true of the patterns of the Animal kingdom.

After all, why does Saturn,Cronos,Uranus and Thoth all derive from the West? And, Thoth was an Atlantean as were the Titans.

http://www.wsu.edu:8001/vwsu/gened/learn-modules/top_longfor/timeline/timeline.html

Still, I think there are some recent updates to be made. One example; From what I presently heard from Spain there are later results from investigations of the (cro-magnon) culture in Altamira, suggesting 5-700.000 years old habitats. And, - of course - there is the highly interesting habitat from Finland, conclusivly determine4d to be a MINIMUM of 300.000 years old.

Betwen these two populations there have resided a great, unpassable barrier, as the giantic glacier where covering all of N France, N Germany, Poland and N. Russia, pluss 80 % of the Brittish Isles of Northern Europe, as well as all of Scandinavia. Only the Baltic Ocean had been open, keeping the coastal area of S Finland (aparently) warm enough for people top survive...

It's not hard to see that great Rivers gave birth to great civilizations and that the true white race is more focused on Atlantis being a Continental land mass in the Atlantic which initialized the more commonplace homosapien structure of today which seems to be a merger of two great nations that met in the middle,............Pacifica, and Atlantica.

I still like to think that the Neanderthals were from a sunken civilization off the NWest coast of Ireland that migrated from the Northern tip of Atlantica 200,000 years ago. The Cro-Magnon/Basque/Celtic seed merging along the ISter from North Portugal up into the Black Sea and Thessaly.

The Pacifica cultures, Peking,Darkened Java man, coming inward thru SE Asia/Indonesia to Ethiopia and Mauretania evolving into Persians,Egyptians and Phoenicians and westward along the Niger to Mauretania. The clash of Java mixing with Peking left a strong change in the Black and White skin, resulting in the Brown Pakistani race types. This also makes sense with the Niger River people forming civilizations around 6500 bC. The Asian civilizations(Chinese) are probably the end result of the Syberian(Eskimo type)white race changing through golden Mongolia into the eastern Sun very shiny, people. This could indicate that perhaps Java and the Negroes, evolved from ancient Pacifica, if we deduce this theory,perhaps.

The Red race leaving East Pacifica onto the Western American,S.American coasts.

Peloponnesia (meaning first to see) seems to be the linking point between Pacifica and Atlantica. Here we have the great battle between Poseidon(Atlantica) and Hera(Pacifica).

Krete,Greece, being the last remnants of these genetic mutations mingling with the North Europeans.

On the other hand, the White race was already evolving from Atlantica and North Europe.

The Therans (Santorini) sailed from Crete to the Island of Platea where they settled for two years.

Then they landed on Libya at Aziris where they stayed for six years. The Greeks then went westward on the coaxing of the Libyans and passed by in the night the most beautiful districts of that whole country, which is the region called Irasa. The Libyans brought them to a spring which goes by the name of Apollo's fountain because it rained there, and told the Greeks to settle there.

Herodotus, The Histories Book IV

Herodotus; The Histories.

Book IV.168-198:

The Libyans dwell in the order which I will now describe. Beginning on the side of Egypt, the first Libyans are the Adyrmachidae. These people have, in most points, the same customs as the Egyptians, but use the costume of the Libyans. Their women wear on each leg a ring made of bronze; they let their hair grow long, and when they catch any vermin on their persons, bite it and throw it away. In this they differ from all the other Libyans. They are also the only tribe with whom the custom obtains of bringing all women about to become brides before the king, that he may choose such as are agreeable to him. The Adyrmachidae extend from the borders of Egypt to the harbor called Port Plynus. Next to the Adyrmachidae are the Gilligammae, who inhabit the country westward as far as the island of Aphrodisias. Off this tract is the island of Platea, which the Cyrenaeans colonized. Here too, upon the mainland, are Port Menelaus, and Aziris, where the Cyrenaeans once lived. The Silphium begins to grow in this region, extending from the island of Platea on the one side to the mouth of the Syrtis on the other. The customs of the Gilligammae are like those of the rest of their countrymen.

The Asbystae adjoin the Gilligammae upon the west. They inhabit the regions above Cyrene, but do not reach to the coast, which belongs to the Cyrenaeans. Four-horse chariots are in more common use among them than among any other Libyans. In most of their customs they ape the manners of the Cyrenaeans. Westward of the Asbystae dwell the Auschisae, who possess the country above Barca, reaching, however, to the sea at the place called Euesperides. In the middle of their territory is the little tribe of the Cabalians, which touches the coast near Tauchira, a city of the Barcaeans. Their customs are like those of the Libyans above Cyrene.

Perhaps this Libyan Giant Antaeus, came from the Asbystae culture.

During the 1990's, a Polish scientist has found remains of 80 hilltop communities in Crete. He claims they all date to 1200 BC. Some locations are so cold that it snows at that elevation. Those hilltop communities were refuges, so local people could escape from attacks by the Sea Peoples.

The documentary includes an appearance by Robert Drews, whose book proposes that chariot warfare became obsolete at that time.

This is the first time I have heard a satisfactory explanation of the theory of Drews.

Drews proposes that Sea Peoples chose to use javelins, and killed (or wounded) one of the Chariot horses from a distance of 100 feet or so. Then with one horse down, the chariot and its charioteers were easy to destroy.

It is a nice documentary. And I recommend that anyone will enjoy watching the documentary if they are curious about the Sea Peoples.

Did you also notice in the previous post from Herodotus that he mentions;

"Westward of the Asbystae dwell the Auschisae, who possess the country above Barca, reaching, however, to the sea at the place called Euesperides."

Given the near proximity of this plush, fertile Libyan land of Silphium, and it's vibrant Olive Trees, including a main point between Egypt and Amenti and the Atalantes cultivating rich papyrus grass for knowledge........and Atlas/Antaeus ruled there.

This has a distinct flavor of golden apples in the Hesperides.

I recall seeing the similar location/place last year in a report by pseudo-Skylax, which was a periplus, or port survey, of the mediterranean.

Skylax called it exactly the Garden of the Hesperides, in coastal Libya or Algeria.

I haven't been very good at concentration today, so I wasn't able to search up the periplus by Skylax.

I had 6 hours of cancer surgery today.

ps. Here is the translation of Skylax. http://www.le.ac.uk/ar/gjs/skylax_for_www_02214.pdf
Look at paragraphs 108 and 109 of the above link, for directions to the Gardens of the Hesperides from both Cyrene and the Syrtes. The distance is 1100-1500 stades west of Cyrene.
Skylax says some Antides people live in Hesperides.

It saddens me to hear that, I'll pray for a full recovery for you. If you recall, a while back you mentioned that where you were, there were no computers for you to correspond with us. I sensed at that time that something was wrong and that you were in the hospital. I had mentioned in reply to that time that I hoped everything was okay. Thank you for your courage in revealing to us the truth.

Take it easy for a while and may the lifeforce of miracles be with you.

I saved that pdf to Skylax you posted and I'll study it in depth.

Atlantis = Atlant (Fatherland)

Aita (Basque) Patre /Atta (Greek) Pater(Latin) it(Egyptian)(all meaning Father)

Atlas(Father’s son, to raise sky)
Nw Africa (Guanches, Aterians Capsians, Berbers).

Gadeirus (green body/place of rivers[Celtic]Iberia, Basque, Cimmerian,Portugal

Greeks also referred to as: Eumeleus=rich in sheep)

Ampheres (to rest,at both sides)[Phoroneus?] Taranto>Otranto
Sicily, Sardinia, Tyrrhenia, Malta (Tarxien >Tarshin)

Evaemon(fortunate woman)[Athena?]
Algeria, Tunisia, Libya ( Atalantes, Qadan, Maxyan, Lotophagi)

Mneseus memory of a great warrior/God
(from a Trojan)[Zeus?]
Crete (Minos, Amnisus)

Autochthon(earthborn)
Peloponnesia, Attica, Cyclades.

Elassipus (horse riding, rulers)[Epaphus?]
Anatolia (Phrygia, Ionia, Caria, Ephaesus)

Mestor(NNE middle, Suitor)[Agenor?]
Phoenicia, Syria (Byblos, Tyre)

Azaes (Heat)
Mauretania (Azas, Azamor)

Diaprepes (relating to God, highly distinguished)[King Belus?]
Egypt, Nubia, Ethiopia.

The Founders of Atlantis

Poseidon (Sea God, Land God, EarthShaker, savior of ships, horses,chained feet) Cleito’s lover.

Evenor (primeval firstborn) Cleito’s Father

Leucippe (Grove of White Horses, Spartan surname) Cleito’s mother

Cleito (emperor’s favorite)[Libya?] Acropolis hill, Atlantis Royal City.

Based on Atlantean migration 10,840 bC (estimated 1,240 years of growth)
Countries Liberated after Great Battle and Atlantis sinking (2850-9600 bC)

Riven dates a more precise estimate of Nov 1st, 6482 bC 21:00hrs for the great flood and sinking of Atlantis. Based on the Eye of Ra myth, ecliptic alignment of planets, Mt.Vesuvius and Mt. Hekla eruptions, Bosphorous straite (Black Sea) flooding and All Saints Day of Destruction Nov 1 and the margin of error between Greek Lunar Cycles and Egyptian Sun Cycles.(345yrs/1000)

Ironically Nov 1,1755, an earthquake from African/European plate tectonic pressure, triggered a great Tsunami that wiped out Lisbon, Azores, Madeira, Canaries and NW Africa.

ATLANTES-of Libyan people
ATLANTICUS-of Mount Atlas
ATLANTIAS-female
ATLANTIADES-male

The word Atlantis];
Re: Basque Translation by Riven

"The main evergreen forest is born a joyous miracle at dawn the abundant monument increases to unite the future arrival and remain loyal to the secret of creation."

Tribes of Atlantis website; www.mts.net/~perasa

Atalante -proposed these names also mean a working class such as Diaprepes=Priestly or Mestor=Architect

I want to pass along a comment about dermatologists. I was surprized to find that dermatologists perform surgery for cancer. While I was in the recovery room, another patient told me she that her oncologist (=tumor or cancer doctor) had sent her to the dermatology people for Moh's surgery.

Not all cancer forms in lumps. Mine was forming lesions (craters) in tissue and cartilege.

So be watchful about cancer.

You are definitely in my prayers. Cancer is such a terrible disease, and anyone who has to face it at least knows how much inner courage they have, deep down inside. For what it is worth, I think you bring a lot of class to this discussion.

The timeline begins close to your 6482 BC magic date. And the location is the Italy, the land of sunset as it figured in Greek mythology (named after the Titan Hesperus, and his daughter Hesperis, goddess of Sunset who married Atlas and gave birth to the Hesperides). This location includes a plain called the terra d'Otranto (perhaps Atlantis/Atrantis, as written in Linear B). This part of Italy also includes a Gorgon/(Gargano) promontory.

Archaeologists claim that agriculture first entered the Italian peninsula (ca. 6000 BC) at Tavoliere, which is on the east side of the heel of Italy's boot. This agriculture had originated ca 7500 BC in southern Turkey or northern Syria. Around 6500 BC, neolithic sailers had reached and colonized the island of Crete, as well as the Peloponese region. (So the most likely motivation behind those ancient sea voyages was trading and distributing obsidian from the island of Melos.)

By 6000 BC, agriculture had expanded north to Illyria on mainland Greece. And at that place and time, agriculture hopped across the Adriatic sea to Tavoliere Italy.

Here is a link about the modern geography of southeast Italy. The link includes a map to visualize the region I am disussing. I want to call special attention, within the link, to the "Terra d'Otranto" farming plain (=land of Atlantis), and to the following links's statement that the first colonists came from the Illyrian region of Greece.

quote from: http://www.italyworldclub.com/puglia/
The territory of Puglia (or Apulia, in English) is a long, narrow peninsula, mostly occupied by plains and hills, apart from some lower mountains of the SOuthern Apennine chain and the Gargano promontory, with high, steep cliffs. The hilly area is called Le Murge, while the plains are the Terra di Bari, Terra d'Otranto, Penisola Salentina and the Tavoliere, the second largest plain in Italy, while the very long coastline is usually low and with sandy beaches. The region has a remarkable population density, mostly concentrated in populous centers, while the countryside is all occupied by flourishing cultivation. Agriculture, which was very difficult in the past for the dryness of the land, is now supported by the Aqueduct, so that now the region is among the biggest Italian producers of tomatoes, salad, carrots, olives, eggplants, artichokes, almonds and citrus fruit. Also highly developed is sheep raising in the Tavoliere plain and fishing in the Gulf of Taranto. Tourism in the summer is another great resource, thanks to the beautiful beaches along the coast, and the many tourist villages and campsites.
History Originally inhabited by an Illyric population, the region was always a strategic area for Mediterranean peoples, and since early times was colonized by the Greeks, who founded the colony of Taranto, then in the 4th century the Romans began their conquest of the territory, and built the Via Appia to connect it to Rome.
endquote