Franchthi Cave 20,000-3,000 bC.(c14)

Across a small bay from the modern Greek village of Koilada.

Paleolithic (20-8300 bC)

wild ass,red deer,pig,hare tortoise,birds.bovids,wild goats,small fish,fox and moles.

hunter gatherer society, no plant foods before 11k bC.
Around 11k bC, lentils,vetch,pistachios,and almonds.
10500 bC, few very rare seeds of wild oats and wild barley. These are not really common until 7k bC.

Flint and Chirt mostly with small amounts of Obsidian from Melos appearing well before 10.9k bC.

No pottery, no burials.

Mesolithic 8300-6000 bC.

no equids or caprine types, large bovids scarce, more fox,hare and birds, hedgehog appers,mole rat extinct,small fish bones.

Phase II fish bones increase in number and size.
Plants mainly the same as Paleolithic other than wild pears a few peas appear around 7300 bC. Increase in Pistachios while Boraginaceae seed family disappears.

Second Phase II, greater number of large fish bones and obsidian from Melos.(Sailed 150 miles away and fished in deep waters)

Riven>> I think the common idea here is that the natives circled the bays in small boats and directed the fish to the waiting marauders in the shore water with spears and clubs.

Microlithic tools emerge. No pottery or architecture.

Appearance of andesite millstones imported from the Saronic Gulf to the north.

Lower mesolithic, earliest burial found. 25yr male.
Migrations to Corfu.

Early Neolithic: (6k-5k bC)

Pottery appears dark monochrome,red,brown paint.
Marble,clay vases.
fish hooks appear
Occupation extends beyond the Cave to Paralia (beach)
Burials more custom
Domesticated sheep and goats. Cultivation.
Polished stone tools.

The wild oats, barley, lentils, pears, and peas disappear; emmer wheat and cultivated/domesticated forms of barley and lentil occur for the first time.

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Only a limited number of sites producing remains of these periods have yet been excavated in Greece: Asprochaliko Cave in the Louros River valley and the Kastritsa Rock Shelter at the south end of Lake Pambotis (or Ioannina), both in Epirus; the not too far distant Klithi Rock Shelter near the Albanian border and the Grave Rock Shelter and Sidari open-air site on the island of Corfu, all also in northwestern Greece; Theopetra Cave in Thessaly; Seidi Cave in the Copaïc Basin of Boeotia; Kephalari Cave and the Kleisoura Rock Shelter in the Argolid; and Kalamakia Cave in the Mani region of Laconia. Paleolithic stone implements have now also been found in a number of areas as the result of surface surveys: in the Peneios River valley of Thessaly, on the island of Euboea, in Boeotia, in Epirus, in the Peneios River Valley of Elis, and in the central and southeastern Argolid. Some of the material from Asprochaliko and from the southeastern Argolid belongs to the Middle Paleolithic period (ca. 30,000 to 40,000 years ago). No pre-Neolithic material has so far been found in Crete nor is there any certain evidence for pre-Neolithic settlement in the Cycladic islands, despite the fact that Melian obsidian is to be found on the Greek Mainland as early as the Upper Paleolithic period at Franchthi Cave.

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THE NEOLITHIC SEQUENCE IN THESSALY
Aceramic Neolithic
Early Neolithic (ca. 6000-5300 b.c.)
Middle Neolithic (or "Sesklo culture") (ca. 5300-4400 b.c. at Sesklo itself)
Late Neolithic (ca. 4300-3300 b.c.)
Final Neolithic (ca. 3300-2500 b.c.)

THE NEOLITHIC SEQUENCE IN CRETE
Aceramic Neolithic (from before 6000 to 5700 b.c.) [Level X = at least four architectural levels]
Early Neolithic (ca. 5700-3700 b.c.)
Middle Neolithic (ca. 3700-3600 b.c.) [Level III = one architectural level]
Late Neolithic (ca. 3600-2800 b.c.) [Levels II-I = three architectural levels]

THE NEOLITHIC SEQUENCE IN THE CYCLADIC ISLANDS
The Saliagos Culture (ca. 4300-3700 b.c.)
The Kephala Culture (ca. 3300-3200 b.c. or later in radiocarbon years)
A Final Neolithic Successor to the Saliagos Culture?

http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/classics/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/2.html

The freshest in his mind would be from the great Battle of Marathon 480 bC.

King Xerxes of Persia invades Greece, and overcomes the heroic resistance of a vastly outnumbered Spartan force at the Battle of Thermopylae. Athens is destroyed. At the Battle of Salamis, the Persian navy is defeated by the Greeks, so Xerxes decides to go home and leave the rest of the war to his lieutenant, Mardonius.

The amount of people and ships and chariots invoved in this great war is phenomenal and easily would compare to Atlantis. Though, Plato made no mention of Xerxes who would have compared to Atlas in that sense.

Truly this was a battle the Atheneans could boast about and would have been easily distinguished.

Then you have some Sparta battles upto 1250 bC when Troy fell to Agamemnon.

Again another excellent example of the Atlantean war but no mention of Agamemnon or Achilles,Ajax, Hector in Plato's thesis.

So the war must be prior to these which leads to the closest relation to Atlantis around 1500-1750 bC with the other Battles of Eleusis and such as Deucalion and Cadmus.

And we still have 2000 years of Ships floating around before these last great remnants of Attica.

The focus then turns to Crete as the first naval fleet around 1900 bC with Knossos. Yet we have no history of war with Crete and a domocile extravagant society, highly advanced on a level with Egypt, which precedes Crete in the known sense.

Geographicaly, it makes sense for the Ionians to jump Rhodes and hop over to Crete to initially settle there, yet, scholars are undetermined as to their originators other than Asian which would make sense with the Egypt,Canaan/Phoenicia/Ionia/Rhodes/Crete migration pattern......if they didn't sail there first which also would make sense. Considering the enormous links between Egypt and Crete, the Creteans should owe their honor to Egypt and which they would be defenders. But, we have no record of wars with Crete.

Again, pointing to earlier periods for the Atlantis battle.

The only real period in the Greek sense that you could compare to Atlantis would be the 1500-1750 bC time era. But, you would be nowhere near the Pillars of Hercules unless you think that the Greeks sailed all the way over there to defend their land. After all,they were defending and not invading which places the war closer to their homefront.

Around 8-1000 bC, we have mention that the Greeks were afraid to go into the Tyrrhenian Sea and we know that the Phoeniceans first claimed trade ports.

Considering all this and that the Greeks were "novice" shipbuilders and seamen, combined with the strong north wind that blew you to Cyprus all the time, it seems at a disadvantage for the Greeks to be Past the Pillars in that great a number.

This also leads to a possibility of two separate events. Atlantis sinking, and another Greek/Atlantean site destroyed by an earthquake, where the actual battle site may have been around Peloponnesia or the Atranto bay in the boot of Italy and Sardinia. Then there's the Bay of Gabes, Tunisia,Malta areas and the Nile Delta.

The other peculiar thing is that the Egyptians predate the Greeks in shipbuilding by 1500 years. You would think that these Aegean island people would have built ships first? Considering that the Egyptian Priest said the Greeks came a 1000 years before, then we could imagine the Greeks had built ships,though our history tells us otherwise.

Seems like the Egyptians knew another Atlantean secret.

There has been a time-honored tradition of setting up "steles" (=commemorative plaques) at the end of some expedition. For example consider the famous "Merneptah stele" in Palestine, which contains the earliest mention of a state called Israel. And Alexander the great built steles to commemorate his army's trip to India.

This (commemorative) phenomenon helps to explain the way ancient writers may have understood the so-called steles of Hercules in Plato's Atlantis theme.

Let's combine two pieces of information:

1) We know that the Critias and Timaeus always refer to "steles" of Hercules. (Although English translations try to confuse us by calling them mere "pillars" of Hercules.)

2) And we also know that both the Greeks and the Phoenicians regarded Hercules/Melcart to be a syncretic deity. In other words, when the Greek myths talk about distant sea travels of Hercules, there is a reasonable probability that we should INFER AMONG OURSELVES that the myths are really talking about Melcart, and the rise to power of the city-state of Tyre around 1200 BC.

While the Phoenician empire was expanding farther west, the outer limits of their expansion kept moving farther west. And so, obviously, different commemorative "steles" could have been put in place at various phases of the Phoenician expansion. First Utica, then Lixus, then Gades, etc.

A REFERENCE TO ATLANTIS THAT PREDATES PLATO

Hellanicus, a Greek writer who died in 410 b.c. had a writing entitled "Atlantis." Plato's account is frequently date to around 350 b.c. This would be the first reference to Atlantis in history. This work survives only in fragments and primarily describes Atlas and his daughters (the reference comes from the Andrew Collins book "Gateway to Atlantis.") Collins places little importance on it, but since, as I said, the work is only a fragment, how can we say what exactly was in this account? It mentions Atlas, his seven daughters (taken to be seven islands) and it mentions Poseidon.

Let's take a look at this 1500 bC linear B Alphabet;
http://www.ancientscripts.com/linearb.html

Now try to spell Atlantis.

You Can't.

The closest you can spell is Ataranti,Ataranta,Atarantu or Ataranto. Which is how the ancient Greeks of 1500 bC would have carried the legend of Atlantis.

Also peculiar are the symbols for Za (ankh) and Zo (cross with a roof over it or upwards arrow,Heaven)

Ma indicates a vulva and a womans "light days" shape.

And if you take the pa and the te symbols which resemble the Djet of Egypt, you would have a Greek word for Father in pater. The Djet as we know is the backbone, and the backbone of life and families stems from the Father.

Regarding the stones of Hercules and the realm of Poseidon, this is undoubtebly Peloponnesia and the Isthmus of Corinth. Further up, lies the other mystical realm of the Boeatians, Thebes, Cadmus and King Minyas.Along with the onset of Athens with Actaeus 1 around 1500 bC also.

The men at this time were great sailors and many great battles had already taken place prior to Troy.

If they also had the same translation as the Egyptian Priest of 570 bC, it would serve to be substantial in terms of Ataranta or Ataranto.

The oddity of this is that given the date of 10000 bC, to consider lower sea levels around 200 feet, this would greatly change the appearance of the Med. Any good Atlas would show these spots as the first lightest areas. We would then see a clear straite between the famous promontory that Herodotus mentions in Tunisia and a somewhat larger Sicily.

We'll call these the Stones of Hercules3.

Hercules 1 would be the Isthmus of Corinth and 2 would be the straite of Messina on the Northeast tip of Sicily. Stones of Hercules 4 would be Gibraltar. 5 the Bosphorous and 6 the Delta Nile.

7 and 8 would be Kithira/west Crete and Karpathos east Crete.

What I'm getting at is that if we are to believe, (like the story of Atlantis which involves different ages),that Atlantis sank in the Atlantic Ocean and the battle was at a different location where the men sank in an earthquake. Could Linear B hint at the Gulf of Taranto,Italy as the final location for this battle?

Interesting material on Linear B, but, with respect, I don't think that the origins of the Greek language and that the fact that one can't draw the word "Atlantis" from Linear B is conclusive proof that the land wasn't called "Atlantis."

Consider, after the fall of the Bronze Age, the Greeks forgot all writing, yet a strong oral tradition survived. Even that doesn't really matter so much as the fact that, in Timaeus, the priest makes a point to tell Solon that the Greeks have forgotten their history.

570 b.c., perhaps the year that Solon visited the Temple of Neith, as your other topic suggests, may have well been the year that the Greeks first heard the word "Atlantis," and the tale that involved them. Of course the Egyptians probably described it as the "Western Ocean." Naturally, the Greeks had recovered their writing by then..!

The timing after that is interesting. Hellanicus died in 410 b.c., and his own account (irregardless of it's content) had to exist some time around then. To my reasoning, that would mean that Solon's writing had to have existed and was known to others, perhaps many others. From what I have read about Hellanicus, he does seem to possess credibility, over two hundred works existing still in fragments.

It would prove that Plato did not originate the name Atlantis, at the very least. Maria seems to suggest that the accounts have very little to do with one another. Yet, since the first one, "Atlantis" exists only in fragments, who can say?

I gather from your other posts that you now support a Mediterranean placement for Atlantis...Lake Tritonis? Personally, I don't think that a Mediterranean-based Atlantis makes it any less attractive. Others here seem unable to look past the Atlantic Ocean!

I'm glad that someone else here seems to be interested in the Minoans, as to me, they have always been the most interesting of all the "Sea People."

Here is an article I think you might find interesting about their written language and how it relates to the Greek, hopefully yoy haven't read it already. Of course you probably already know that, though Linear BV has been deciphred, Linear A still has not:
http://www.varchive.org/dag/decipher.htm

Plato did not invent the word Atlantis, he retold it 190 years later. Plato's character as I mentioned in 570 bC,Atlantis rising thread, is one of sound and proven characteristics. He tried to detail events as true and factual as he could.

The elderly Egyptian Priest uttered the word which was carried by Solon upon his visit to Egypt. A story of this magnitude should have been widespread throughout Greece upto the time of Plato.

I do not place Atlantis in the med, but,as I would like to propose, that Atlantis sank in the Atlantic(Amperes/Gettysburg), and that the final battle between Atlantis and Greece took place in the med, perhaps near the Bay of Atranto,Italy.

Given that the Egyptians and the Greeks have a long history together stemming back to King Belus, then it would also serve that Linear B of that time was communicated between them.

If the Egyptians knew of this Atlantis as recorded in their temples for eons, then it should have been mentioned around 1500 bC also. The proof we await, that is, if it wasn't suppressed until 570 bC where we can clearly see that the downfall of Egypt was near giving rise to it's disclosure as a final tribute between the Egyptians and the Greeks.

Plato's character was "one of sound and proven characteristics," no disagreement there, and I definitely don't think he made it up either. In fact, if one looks at the pattern of Plato's works, it seems to be to base his dialogues on true events. Making up a story in wholesale fashion would have been out of character for him. He had "the Republic", but that just proves the point that he didn't need to create a similar creation out of the Athens/Atlantis story. Yes, the story was based on real facts (even though Plutarch does mention that he gave them some embellishment).

As for a story like this being widespread throughout Greece upon the time of Plato, well, the Egyptian priests specifically tell Solon that the Greeks have no memory of it, because they were forced to begin again like children. This would follow as you know there was a Dark Age of some five hundred years following the Bronze Age collapse where all writing seems to have been forgotten. No matter when Atlantis existed, the Greeks would no longer have a memory of it.

I'm glad that you place Atlantis in the Atlantic, your theory sounds plausible. But since I have yet to see any evidence of a lost civlization in the Atlantic, I still think that the Mediterranean would be just as likely a place.

You are right about the Egyptians and the arrogance they must have felt at the time with their temples. They still seem somewhat arrogant and too filled with pride..! I've always believed that beneath that veneer lies a secret that strikes them at their core. Whether that secret is Atlantis, who can say..?

Taranto is quite a fascinating city, and the more you look into it,the greater it becomes.

It has always been considered a strong hold and the site of the strongest naval fleets in Italy. Even in world war II it was used as a stronghold. Apparently it was founded around 700 bC,most likely by Spartans since around 350 bC Sparta was considered it's mother city. This would also add to it being founded by Poseidon's son Taras or by Hercules which would mean that it was founded around 1200 bC.

The famous Pythagoreans also fled here for protection from attack where they survived.

The other oddity, though it may seem extreme, is that maybe this is why no one can find Tartessos where Homer thought it to be on Spains coast in the far west. Perhaps this could very well be Tartessos.

That is, to only suggest a possibility.

Your words of wisdom,reflected.

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He had "the Republic", but that just proves the point that he didn't need to create a similar creation out of the Athens/Atlantis story.

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This is something that they should also teach the Scholars in every Academy.

Why didn't we find Atlantis in the Republic?

Thinking about Plato made me think of Cratylus and what a marvel this dialogue is on naming things and how much is involved in the nature and meaning of a name.

The Lesson on names of course is taught by Socrates to Hermogenes.
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/cratylus.html

Cratylus has been arguing about names; he says that they are natural and not conventional; not a portion of the human voice which men agree to use; but that there is a truth or correctness in them, which is the same for Hellenes as for barbarians.

Socrates;
If I had not been poor, I might have heard the fifty-drachma course of the great Prodicus, which is a complete education in grammar and language

Soc. But if neither is right, and things are not relative to individuals, and all things do not equally belong to all at the same moment and always, they must be supposed to have their own proper and permanent essence: they are not in relation to us, or influenced by us, fluctuating according to our fancy, but they are independent, and maintain to their own essence the relation prescribed by nature.

Soc. Then the argument would lead us to infer that names ought to be given according to a natural process, and with a proper instrument, and not at our pleasure: in this and no other way shall we name with success.

Soc. Then, Hermogenes, not every man is able to give a name, but only a maker of names; and this is the legislator, who of all skilled artisans in the world is the rarest.

Then Socrates talks about Homer and his validity of naming things because Homer distinguishes the names between Gods and mortals.

Soc. Do you not know what he says about the river in Troy who had a single combat with Hephaestus?

Whom the Gods call Xanthus, and men call Scamander

(Socrates feels that Homer knew the proper name Xanthus river because it was a male name and Scamander would have been named by a female)

The Gods call Chalcis, and men Cymindis: to be taught how much more correct the name Chalcis is than the name Cymindis- do you deem that a light matter? Or about Batieia and Myrina? And there are many other observations of the same kind in Homer and other poets. Now, I think that this is beyond the understanding of you and me; but the names of Scamandrius and Astyanax, which he affirms to have been the names of Hector's son, are more within the range of human faculties, as I am disposed to think;

Trojan men called him Astyanax (king of the city);

Soc. But tell me, friend, did not Homer himself also give Hector his name?

Soc. The name appears to me to be very nearly the same as the name of Astyanax- both are Hellenic; and a king (anax) and a holder (ektor) have nearly the same meaning, and are both descriptive of a king; for a man is clearly the holder of that of which he is king; he rules, and owns, and holds it. But, perhaps, you may think that I am talking nonsense; and indeed I believe that I myself did not know what I meant when I imagined that I had found some indication of the opinion of Homer about the correctness of names.

Soc. A very simple matter. I may illustrate my meaning by the names of letters, which you know are not the same as the letters themselves with the exception of the four e, u, o (short), o (long); the names of the rest, whether vowels or consonants, are made up of other letters which we add to them; but so long as we introduce the meaning, and there can be no mistake, the name of the letter is quite correct. Take, for example, the letter beta- the addition of e, t, a, gives no offence, and does not prevent the whole name from having the value which the legislator intended- so well did he know how to give the letters names.

As was just now said, the names of Hector and Astyanax have only one letter alike, which is t, and yet they have the same meaning. And how little in common with the letters of their names has Archepolis (ruler of the city)- and yet the meaning is the same. And there are many other names which just mean "king." Again, there are several names for a general, as, for example, Agis (leader) and Polemarchus (chief in war) and Eupolemus (good warrior); and others which denote a physician, as Iatrocles (famous healer) and Acesimbrotus (curer of mortals); and there are many others which might be cited, differing in their syllables and letters, but having the same meaning. Would you not say so?

Soc. He should not be called Theophilus (beloved of God) or Mnesitheus (mindful of God),

Soc. Again, Hermogenes, there is Orestes (the man of the mountains)

Agamemnon (admirable for remaining)

I also think that Atreus is rightly called; for his murder of Chrysippus and his exceeding cruelty to Thyestes are damaging and destructive to his reputation- the name is a little altered and disguised so as not to be intelligible to every one, but to the etymologist there is no difficulty in seeing the meaning, for whether you think of him as ateires the stubborn, or as atrestos the fearless, or as ateros the destructive one, the name is perfectly correct in every point of view. And I think that Pelops is also named appropriately; for, as the name implies, he is rightly called Pelops who sees what is near only (o ta pelas oron).

Soc. Every one would agree that the name of Tantalus is rightly given and in accordance with nature, if the traditions about him are true.

Soc. Many terrible misfortunes are said to have happened to him in his life- last of all, came the utter ruin of his country; and after his death he had the stone suspended (talanteia) over his head in the world below- all this agrees wonderfully well with his name. You might imagine that some person who wanted to call him Talantatos (the most weighted down by misfortune), disguised the name by altering it into Tantalus; and into this form, by some accident of tradition, it has actually been transmuted. The name of Zeus, who is his alleged father, has also an excellent meaning, although hard to be understood, because really like a sentence, which is divided into two parts, for some call him Zena, and use the one half, and others who use the other half call him Dia; the two together signify the nature of the God, and the business of a name, as we were saying, is to express the nature. For there is none who is more the author of life to us and to all, than the lord and king of all. Wherefore we are right in calling him Zena and Dia, which are one name, although divided, meaning the God through whom all creatures always have life (di on zen aei pasi tois zosin uparchei). There is an irreverence, at first sight, in calling him son of Cronos (who is a proverb for stupidity), and we might rather expect Zeus to be the child of a mighty intellect. Which is the fact; for this is the meaning of his father's name: Kronos quasi Koros (Choreo, to sweep), not in the sense of a youth, but signifying to chatharon chai acheraton tou nou, the pure and garnished mind (sc. apo tou chorein). He, as we are informed by tradition, was begotten of Uranus, rightly so called (apo tou oran ta ano) from looking upwards; which, as philosophers tell us, is the way to have a pure mind, and the name Uranus is therefore correct. If I could remember the genealogy of Hesiod, I would have gone on and tried more conclusions of the same sort on the remoter ancestors of the Gods,- then I might have seen whether this wisdom, which has come to me all in an instant, I know not whence, will or will not hold good to the end.

Her. You seem to me, Socrates, to be quite like a prophet newly inspired, and to be uttering oracles

Soc. Yes, Hermogenes, and I believe that I caught the inspiration from the great Euthyphro of the Prospaltian deme, who gave me a long lecture which commenced at dawn: he talked and I listened, and his wisdom and enchanting ravishment has not only filled my ears but taken possession of my soul,and to-day I shall let his superhuman power work and finish the investigation of names- that will be the way

Eutychides (the son of good fortune), or Sosias (the Saviour), or Theophilus (the beloved of God),

Gods or runners (Theous, Theontas)
daemones (knowing or wise),

Soc, but we are enquiring about the meaning of men in giving them these names

Soc. They are the men to whom I should attribute the imposition of names. Even in foreign names, if you analyze them, a meaning is still discernible. For example, that which we term ousia is by some called esia, and by others again osia. Now that the essence of things should be called estia, which is akin to the first of these (esia = estia), is rational enough. And there is reason in the Athenians calling that estia which participates in ousia. For in ancient times we too seem to have said esia for ousia, and this you may note to have been the idea of those who appointed that sacrifices should be first offered to estia, which was natural enough if they meant that estia was the essence of things. Those again who read osia seem to have inclined to the opinion of Heracleitus, that all things flow and nothing stands; with them the pushing principle (othoun) is the cause and ruling power of all things, and is therefore rightly called osia. Enough of this, which is all that we who know nothing can affirm.

Soc. Well, then, how can we avoid inferring that he who gave the names of Cronos and Rhea to the ancestors of the Gods, agreed pretty much in the doctrine of Heracleitus? Is the giving of the names of streams to both of them purely accidental? Compare the line in which Homer, and, as I believe, Hesiod also, tells of

Ocean, the origin of Gods, and mother Tethys. And again, Orpheus says, that

The fair river of Ocean was the first to marry, and he espoused his sister Tethys, who was his mother's daughter. You see that this is a remarkable coincidence, and all in the direction of Heracleitus.

Her. I think that there is something in what you say, Socrates; but I do not understand the meaning of the name Tethys.

Soc. Well, that is almost self-explained, being only the name of a spring, a little disguised; for that which is strained and filtered (diattomenon, ethoumenon) may be likened to a spring, and the name Tethys is made up of these two words.

Soc. Then let us next take his two brothers, Poseidon and Pluto, whether the latter is called by that or by his other name.

Soc. Poseidon is Posidesmos, the chain of the feet; the original inventor of the name had been stopped by the watery element in his walks, and not allowed to go on, and therefore he called the ruler of this element Poseidon; the e was probably inserted as an ornament. Yet, perhaps, not so; but the name may have been originally written with a double l and not with an s, meaning that the God knew many things (Polla eidos). And perhaps also he being the shaker of the earth, has been named from shaking (seiein), and then p and d have been added. Pluto gives wealth (Ploutos), and his name means the giver of wealth, which comes out of the earth beneath. People in general appear to imagine that the term Hades is connected with the invisible (aeides) and so they are led by their fears to call the God Pluto instead.

Soc. Athene?

Her. Yes.

Soc. That is a graver matter, and there, my friend, the modern interpreters of Homer may, I think, assist in explaining the view of the ancients. For most of these in their explanations of the poet, assert that he meant by Athene "mind" (nous) and "intelligence" (dianoia), and the maker of names appears to have had a singular notion about her; and indeed calls her by a still higher title, "divine intelligence" (Thou noesis), as though he would say: This is she who has the mind of God (Theonoa);- using a as a dialectical variety e, and taking away i and s. Perhaps, however, the name Theonoe may mean "she who knows divine things" (Theia noousa) better than others. Nor shall we be far wrong in supposing that the author of it wished to identify this Goddess with moral intelligence (en ethei noesin), and therefore gave her the name ethonoe; which, however, either he or his successors have altered into what they thought a nicer form, and called her Athene.

Her. But what do you say of Hephaestus?

Soc. Speak you of the princely lord of light (Phaeos istora)?

Her. Surely.

Riven;
Soc. Ephaistos is Phaistos, and has added the e by attraction; that is obvious to anybody.

Riven:

(Could the Phaistos disc be a tribute to Hephaistos?)

Soc. The origin of the sun will probably be clearer in the Doric form, for the Dorians call him alios, and this name is given to him because when he rises he gathers (alizoi) men together or because he is always rolling in his course (aei eilein ion) about the earth; or from aiolein, of which meaning is the same as poikillein (to variegate), because he variegates the productions of the earth.

Soc. Any violent interpretations of the words should be avoided; for something to say about them may easily be found. And thus I get rid of pur and udor. Aer (air), Hermogenes, may be explained as the element which raises (airei) things from the earth, or as ever flowing (aei pei), or because the flux of the air is wind, and the poets call the winds "air-blasts," (aetai); he who uses the term may mean, so to speak, air-flux (aetorroun), in the sense of wind-flux (pneumatorroun); and because this moving wind may be expressed by either term he employs the word air (aer = aetes rheo). Aither (aether) I should interpret as aeitheer; this may be correctly said, because this element is always running in a flux about the air (aei thei peri tou aera ron). The meaning of the word ge (earth) comes out better when in the form of gaia, for the earth may be truly called "mother" (gaia, genneteira), as in the language of Homer (Od. ix. 118; xiii. 160) gegaasi means gegennesthai.

Her. Well, then, the name of andreia seems to imply a battle;- this battle is in the world of existence

Sorry for the long post but it truly is a good lesson on names and should give us all some better insight into the names of the 10 Kings of Atlantis.

This is philosophy at it's apex. Brilliant on the part of Socrates and it rings true when Hermogenes said that Socrates was speaking like an Oracle.

According to Hero, both the Kelts of Europe, and the Kynetes of Portugal, lived "outside the Pillars of Heracles".

This follows common sense if we assume that both Solon and Herodotus got their information (about "outside the pillars") from people who lived in Africa, and who considered everything south of Gibralter to be "inside".

quote from: http://www.gurdjieff-internet.com/ebooks/greece/egypt_herodotus.html
...for the Nile flows from Libya and cuts Libya through in the midst, and as I
conjecture, judging of what is not known by that which is evident to
the view, it starts at a distance from its mouth equal to that of the
Ister: for the river Ister begins from the Keltoi and the city of
Pyrene and so runs that it divides Europe in the midst (now the Keltoi
are outside the Pillars of Heracles and border upon the Kynesians, who
dwell furthest towards the sunset of all those who have their dwelling
in Europe):

Here is what Herodotus tells us about the origin of the gods.

One and only one god came from the Libyans. That is Poseidon/Neptune. In fact, the ONLY country which worshipped Poseidon in ancient times was Libya (at least according to Herodotus).

A handful of female goddesses came from the Pelasgians: Juno, Hestia, Themis, the Graces and the Nereids.

The Dioscuri twins also came from the Pelasgians.

And all the other Gods came from Egypt.

Poseidon was a Libyan (according to Herodotus).

Amphitrite, wife of Poseidon in classical Greek mythology, was a Nereid (this makes her a Pelasgian, according to Herodotus).

The household of Poseidon and his wife, according to Plato included 100 Nereids (who were Pelasgians, according to Herodotus).

From HOMER IN THE BALTIC:

"Opposite this region, in the North Sea, the name of Heligoland, one of the North Frisian Islands, recalls Helike, a sanctuary of the god Poseidon mentioned in the Iliad (it is remarkable that an old name for Heligoland was Fositesland, where «Fosite», an ancient Frisian god, is virtually identical to Poseidon)."

As regards to Crete, Naxos, Egypt and Pharos:

"As regards Crete, the «vast land» with «a hundred cities» and many rivers, which is NEVER REFERRED TO AS AN ISLAND by Homer, it corresponds to the Pomeranian region in the southern Baltic area, which stretches from the German coast to the Polish same. This explains why in the rich pictorial productions of the Minoan civilization, which flourished in Aegean Crete, we find no hint of Greek mythology, and ships are so scantily represented. It would also be tempting to assume a relationship between the name «Polska» and the Pelasgians, the inhabitants of Homeric Crete. At this point, it is also easy to identify Naxos (where Theseus left Ariadne on his return journey from «Crete» to «Athens») with the island of Bornholm, situated between Poland and Sweden, where the town of Neksø still recalls the ancient name of the island.

Likewise, we discover that the Odyssey's «River Egypt» probably coincides with the present-day Vistula, thus revealing the real origin of the name the Greeks gave to Pharaohs' land, known as «Kem» in the local language. This explains the incongruous position of the Homeric Egyptian Thebes, which, according to the Odyssey, is located near the sea. Evidently the Egyptian capital, which on the contrary lies hundreds of kilometres from the Nile delta and was originally known as Wò'se, was renamed by the Achaeans with the name of a Baltic city, after they moved down to the Mediterranean. The real Thebes probably was the present-day Tczew, on the Vistula delta. To the north of the latter, in the centre of the Baltic Sea, the island of Fårö recalls the Homeric Pharos, which according to the Odyssey lay in the middle of the sea at a day's sail from «Egypt» (whereas Mediterranean Pharos is not even a mile's distance from the port of Alexandria). Here is the solution to another puzzle of Homeric geography that so perturbed Strabo."

From Bernard Suzannes well respected Plato website; http://plato-dialogues.org/tools/loc/argos.htm
(even though he thinks Atlantis a myth)

Here is the legend in brief as the Pelopelasgians knew it, reflecting the ripple of knowledge upon the lake of Maat.

In mythology, the first king of Argos is the River-God Inachus, a son, like all rivers of the world, of the Titans Oceanus and his sister and wife Tethys (not to be confused with the Nereid Thetis, mother of Achilles). In some legends, Inachus is presented as contemporary with Erichthonius of Athens and Eumolpus of Eleusis. He was chosen as arbitrator between Hera and Poseidon in their fight for the dominion over the country and decided in favor of Hera. Hera indeed, as she herself claims in the Iliad (Iliad, IV, 50-52), was the protector of Argos, where she had a very ancient temple, the Heraion.

In Peloponnesian legends, Inachus is said to have been the father of Phoroneus, the first human being (Plato refers to this tradition at Timæus, 22a-b), who is sometimes presented as the one who decided between Hera and Poseidon and introduced the cult of Hera in Peloponnese. He was also credited for teaching men to gather in cities and use fire. He was the father of Niobe, the mother of all living beings and the first mortal who was loved by Zeus (not to be confused with the daughter of Tantalus), from whom she had a son named Argus, credited for teaching men how to cultivate wheat, and who became king of Peloponnese, then called as a whole Argos after him, a name that was later restricted to the city of Argos and the surrounding region of Argolis (according to Arcadian legends, Zeus and Niobe had another son, Pelasgus, the eponym of the Pelasgians, the mythical people that lived in Greece before the Hellens, and supposedly the first man who lived in Arcadia).

Among the descendants of Inachus was Io, who is either said to be the daughter of Iasos, a great-grandson of Argus, or directly the daughter of Inachus, as in Æschylus' (Prometheus Bound, 588). Io too was loved by Zeus and, when Hera, Zeus' wife, became suspicious, Zeus changed Io into a white heifer. Hera then entrusted the metamorphosed Io to the surveillance of Argus, great-grandson of the above mentioned Argus, son of Zeus and Niobe, and thus a relative of Io, endowed with so many eyes that half of them could sleep while the other half stayed awake. Zeus, then, asked Hermes to free his beloved and Hermes killed Argus, whose eyes, in reward, Hera immortalized by moving them on the feathers of the peacock, a bird consecrated to her. After that, Hera sent a gadfly to torment Io who, rendered furious by the insect, ran through all Greece. She first followed the coast of what became known hereafter as the Ionian Gulf, then crossed to Asia at the strait that, as a result, received the name of Bosporus (litterally in Greek, "ox ford"), before eventually ending in Egypt where she gave birth to the son she expected from Zeus, Epaphus. In Egypt, she was later known and honored as Isis. The legend of Io is developed at length in Æschylus' Prometheus Bound (561-886) and is presented by Herodotus at the sart of his Histories, in a rationalized version, as the remote origin of the conflicts between Asia and Greece that led, from rapt of woman to rapt of woman to war (Io abducted by the Phoenicians, Europa by the Cretans, Medea by the Greeks, Helen by Paris, leading to the Trojan War) to the Medean Wars whose story he writes (Histories, I, 1-5).

Epaphus, the son of Zeus and Io, married Memphis, the daughter of the River-God Nile, from which he had a daughter named Libya, the eponym of the country west of Egypt. From Poseidon, Libya had twins, Agenor, the mythical hero of Phoenicia, and Belus, who became king of Egypt. Agenor became the father of Cadmus (the founder of Thebes), Phoenix (who settled in Sidon and gave his name to the Phoenicians) and Europa (the mother of Minos, son of Zeus and king of Crete), while Belus had two sons, Danaus and Ægyptus. Danaus had fifty daughters, the Danaides, while Ægyptus had fifty sons. Afraid of these boys, Danaus fled with his daughters and reached Argos where he overthrew the king of the time, Gelanor, last descendant of Phoroneus, to become king in his place. But, after he had settled in Argos, his fifty nephews came after him to claim his daughters as wives

A good link on Argos History www.sikyon.com/Argos/history_eg.html

(what’s interesting is that this author places Inachus around 1986 bC, but yet says Inachus helped people escape the flood after Deukalion)

So in perspective;

Inachus is from the Titan Oceanus and Tethys. Atlanteans from the Atlantic. So this must be around 9600 bC according to the Egyptian Priest.

Which would mean that placing the birth of Egypt at 8600 bC would mean an ancient Epaphus who settled Memphis.

Inachus arbitrated the settlement of Peloponnesia with the cult of Poseidon and the cult of Hera. Inachus chose Hera.

This also indicates a war between Atlantis and Greece.

Since we see many indications of Poseidon coming from the west like Libya and to take into account that Socrates said that Poseidon was a form of the word for “chained feet”, or to mean reaching the edge of land and the feet can go no further, it would be also reasonable to consider that Poseidon also was from Oceanus and credibility to his rule of Atlantis. Another indication, that the Pelopelasgians had won the war with Atlantis, and were rescued by Hera. Hera, after all, was the protector of Argos.

Inachus is also the father (Patre) of Phoroneus who was the first man to teach control of fire to the Pelopelasgians and gather into cities.

This goes well with 9600 bC.

This statement also attributes to the Greeks starting over for we know the control of fire is milleneons ago.
Phoroneus is also given credit as the arbitrator of Poseidon and Hera. (Could Phoroneus have been Ampheres, likely according to Socrates?)
The father of Niobe the FIRST mortal loved by Zeus,(Mneseus) pushing Zeus back thousands of years, who is also an Atlantean as he too was a Titan who settled on Crete.

Zeus is also said to have been born in Crete in a cave. This contradicts his Atlantean heritage unless Crete was also an Atlantean state then.

Interesting how they use the name Niobe which makes me think of Nubia? Egypt? Niobe would be compared to Maat, or the great mother..

Respectively, anyone who was a Titan was an Atlantean from Oceanus.

Niobe gives birth to Argus who is credited with the cultivation of Wheat (8500 bC)

Then Zeus and Niobe gave birth to Pelasgus, the Pelasgian culture. (7000 bC)

Io, a descendant of Inachus later appears to argue between Zeus and Hera, indication of a battle of sorts.

Zeus changes Io into a Sacred white Cow,

Hera contains Io to Argus where Zeus asks Hermes to kill Argus so he could have Io back.

Io flees to the Bosphorous (6500bC) where she colonizes the Anatolians and they become Ionians and proceeds to Egypt where she gives birth to Epaphus,(Elassipus) the first King of Egypt who marries Memphis and they have a daughter Libya.

Poseidon integrates with Libya (Cleito) and gives birth to twin boys, Agenor (Mestor) of Phoenicia and King Belus (Diaprepes) of Egypt.

Io later becomes known as Isis. Zeus loves Io. Osiris loves Isis.

This story seems to indicate that the Atlanteans colonized the eastern and southeastern mediterannean from a focal point in Crete, migrating upinto Peloponnesia,Attica, Boeotia across to the Bosphorous and down to Egypt. So the Pelopelasgians became Ionians who became Phoenicians who became Egyptians who became Libyans. The key seems to lie in Zeus who was before Phoroneus. Zeus compares to Osiris who I like to compare to the Qadan cultures from the Lake Tritonis, Atalantes region, or the westward mountainous land of the Egyptian Myths, which gives rise to a jump across from the famous Promontory of Tunis to Sicily to the Gulf of Atranto to Peloponnesia to Crete.

So it seems that 3 great lakes are symbolic of each other. Lake Tritonis in Algeria, Lake Trichonis above Peleponnesia in Aetolia which is a paradisal ecosystem, and the Lake of Maat at Karnak reflecting the exact shape of Lake Trichonis ,reflecting the ripples of Atlantean Oars.

And Zeus, the God of Gods, perceiving that a woeful race was in serious plight, fought for the freedom of his people, Anatolians and Egypt and summoned Hercules to 12 years of Battles. And Poseidon, seeing that the son of Chronos had rebelled against his Father, released the fury of Seismon upon the Pelopelasgians and Creteans and the Ancestors of Priam and Menes, casting them deep behind the walls of Tartarus, and darkness was upon the Earth in those days.

Riven-The Azorean Prince.
Town of Victoria,Teiceira Island.Azores.
Nov 1/1961

Beginning in the 20th century, scholars were able to read the Hittite language. And that gives rise to the "Ahiyyawa problem". Hittite annals declare that there is a Great King who dwells in the western sea; he and his people are Ahhiyawa, and they fluorish between roughly 1500-1250 BC. Then they mysteriously cease being mentioned in Hittite records.

There is still some disagreement among Hittite scholars about whether the capital of Ahhiyawa was in Mycenaean Greece, or in mainland Anatolia. The most likely location for Ahhiyawa is in Mycenaean Greece.

Here is a google search for the "Ahhiyawa problem". http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=ahhiyawa+problem&btnG=Search

But lets consider some "Pelasgian" connections which are being sublimated in the Phoroneus myths. (These Pelasgian issues amazed me when I chose to analyze what Herodotus was saying about the goddesses of the Pelasgians.)

The myth about Phoroneus states that Phoroneus was the first (man) to build a temple to Hera. It may be important to note that Hera was the great Goddess of the Pelasgians (at least according to Herodotus as cited in one of my recent posts in this Tribes II topic).

Shortly before the era of Olympians, there was a time when the titaness Pleiades seem to have controlled the Peloponese peninsula.

Rexently, I posted the geographical territories which are connected with those Pleiades in the Titans topic, based on the Carlos Parada webpage about Pleiades http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/PLEIADES.html

It seems possible that the Alcyone (the Pleiad whose sons are associated with Troezen) is the garbled namesake for Ahhiyawa.

Furthermore, Herodotus implied that the Pelasgian river deities were WOMEN Nereids. So its quite logical for the male-dominated Olympians to take the opposite stance and claim that their "first man" was the son of a MALE river god.

Now lets turn our attention to the so-called "elder Olympians", who were named as sons and daughters of the Titan Cronos.

Among the 3 women in the group of "elder Olympians", two were also PELASGIAN GODDESSES, namely Hera and Hestia.

There must have been some conflict when olympian Zeus married pelasgian Hera. They had only one legitimate child from their mythological marriage: and that is the god of war, Ares.

Among the 3 women in the group of Elder Olympians, only the goddess of agriculture (Demeter) was not in Herodoutus's list of Pelasgian goddesses. So I infer that the Pelasgians were NOT farmers. (Likewize, the myth of Triptolemus, seems to say that the newly arrived Indo-Europeans had a mission of teaching farming to the backward people of the Peloponesian peninsula.)

Ahhiyawa seems to be a garbled form of Achaeans.

Achiyawa Achieawa Acheava Acheana Achaen.

It is as you've mentioned Atalante, a widely accepted theory by scholars that the Hittites referred this name to the Sea Peoples of ancient Greece. The size of this Ahhiyawa Kingdom leaves no room for an Anatolian location.

Scholars also agree that they also relate to the attack on Troy around 1200 bC.

Considering that Ares was the son of Zeus and Hera, it is also mentioned that Ares fought against Athena.

This is an indication of another Battle with the Tritonis Atlantean stronghold,where Athena is from.

Peloponnesia originally belonged to Poseidon and Phoroneus allied with Zeus,Hera,and Ares won controll of her.(Peleponnesia) Switching from Patriarchy to Matriarchy at this point.

Ares is widely honored in Thracia which would relate to ancient Thebes and Cadmus.
This would also explain why Ares defended Hector in the Battle of Troy.

I agree with most of those wars.

But I want to try again to impress upon you the extent of matriarchy in the Peloponesian peninula, in the era when Phoroneus (who lived before there were any Helenes) became the first "man" to give reverence to the pelasgian great goddess Hera.

As you recall, Atlas was the king of Arcadia, which happens to be the central province of the Peloponesian peninsula.

The "seven daughters" of Atlas (gramatically, "Atlantis") are the Pleiades. After moving away from their father's homestead in Arcadia, here is a brief summary of where the 7 Pleiades settled.

atalante
Member posted 08-06-2004 10:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is interesting to review where the titaness Pleiades migrated and settled. Mostly they went to the Peloponesian peninsula, but two or three went to the far west end of the world.
reference: http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/PLEIADES.html

TAYGETE moved to southeast Peloponese and her descendents founded Laconia/Lacedaemon (=classical Sparta). Her descendents served as the first 3 kings of Crete.

MAIA moved to Arcadia in the center of the Peloponese. Her son was the Olympian god Hermes.

MEROPE moved to Corinth at the north end of Peloponese with her husband Sisyphus. Her grandson Bellerophon was banished to Cilicia around 1180 BC, where Bellerophon fought in the chaos (= mythical Chimera, three superpowers entangled in one body: Hittites, Egyptians, and Assuwa League) which Ramses III describes as the primary destructive activity by Sea Peoples.

ALCYONE moved to Troezen (= classical Argolis) on the east side of Peloponese, with her sons Hyperenor 1 and Anthas, who served as kings in Troezen. (Alcyone may be a namesake for the maritime superpower which Hittite scribes called: Ahhiyawa.)

STEROPE moved to the northwest side of the Peloponese (=the classical region of Elis) and married the warlord Oenomaus, who was eventually deposed by the Asiatic Pelops, from whom the peninsula became known as Peloponese.

ELECTRA lived at Troy until the end of the famous Trojan war. Afterwards, Electra moved to the land of Hyperboreans. Her name is cognate with amber, which came mainly from the Baltic Sea.

CELAENO moved to the far western paradise called the Islands of the Blessed, with her son, Lycus 2.

endquote

furthermore:

posted 08-06-2004 13:54
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Among the Pleiades, perhaps the most intiguing people are the descendents of Merope, who seem to have ventured into the Atlantic ocean, and to have made connections with the Hyperboreans of northern Europe (among whom Electra, another Pleiad, had resettled after Troy was destroyed).
quote from: http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/Ancient.Civ_Technol/ataw103.html

Ælian, in his "Varia Historia" (book iii., chap. xviii.), tells us that Theopompus (400 B.C.) related the particulars of an interview between Midas, King of Phrygia, and Silenus, in which Silenus reported the existence of a great continent beyond the Atlantic, "larger than Asia, Europe, and Libya together." He stated that a race of men called Meropes dwelt there, and had extensive cities. They were persuaded that their country alone was a continent. Out of curiosity some of them crossed the ocean and visited the Hyperboreans.
endquote

say, I noticed that the last photograph is of :Zuma, Native Woman with Two Children and a Sheep,

Part of the reason why I read through the entire topics was to make sure that
I wasn't repeating someone else.

To refresh Atalante:

"This story in Herodotus tends to confirm, to a degree, Plato's contention that the Egyptians admitted Greek civilization, as descended from Hephaestus and Athena/Neith, had started 1000 years earlier than Egyptian civilization.

"This information could be helpful in determining who actually were the "ancient Athenians" or "Ancient Greeks" in Plato's legend of Atlantis. (Herodotus says they were the Phrygians.)"

Going to Herodotus we read:

"Now before Psammetichus became king of Egypt, the Egyptians believed that they were the oldest people on earth. But ever since Psammetichus became king and wished to find out which people were the oldest, they have believed that the Phrygians were older than they, and they than everybody else."

Book 2, Chapter 2

What proof is there for the Egyptian claimed the Phrygians were of an older ancestry?

Can we verify Atalante's claim that the Phrygians were the "Ancient Greeks?"
(Because I can't find the linkage in the History of Herodotus.)

The following is the Phoenician Inscription of Edessa in Macedonia.

"Perdikas son of Argeo(s) leading his Makestes (Macedonians) when approached to Vedissa (Edessa) citadel, headed down from upper Illyria, offered sacrifice to uppermost (god) Savaz(i)os. Then when conquered entire Midas country, being outraged with foreign Greeks who were charged for intrigues, extincted them immediatelly while released indigenous Briges (Phrygians) to wander away, because both these people spoke different languages. Since then being elder sovereign of Brigea (Phrygia) enjoyed the profits of this most ancient city renaming it to Aigai while kept repelling fugitives to return with excemption of captives. Dredas son of Gordios chiseled this marble chronicle in Greek language in memory of sorrowful remembrance."

The following site had a full explanation of the Phrygian displacement to Anatolia from their original homeland in Macedonia. The Phrygians could have easily had a larger domain and absorbed the preceding Sesklo culture - hence their antiquity?

: http://www.geocities.com/stojangr/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/stojangr/frombalkans__toanatolia.htm

disclosure: I have no stake in this site in any way, merely passing along what I stumbled upon....

Obviously, that inscription is controversial, because it seems to be dated to the midpoint of the Greek dark age. (After the Dorian invasion, but also before Homer's time.) And it uses Phoenician letters.

In the year which has elapsed since I made that post, I have discovered that the Critias does define ancient Athens: it was the territory which we now call Attica.

Ancient Egypt however, did have myths about the extreme antiquity of the region around Syria. That is where Osiris originated. And Isis had to return there to rejuvenate the mutilated carcass of Osiris.

The Egyptians also seemed to think that Set originated in highlands near Anatolia.

"She (Neith/Athena) founded your city a thousand years before ours,receiving from the Earth and Hephaestus the seed of your race,and afterwards SHE founded ours".

The cool part is that Hephaestus relates to the Phaistos disk which could relate to Crete colonizing North or Lower Egypt while Menes and his Thebans were moving northward. And from the Gebel-Arak knife and the Narmer Palette, we know there was and ancient Battle there that involved Ships, not just boats, but Ships. 3-4000 bC.

Clearly the Egyptian Priest admits that the same Goddess founded both Greece and Egypt.

The catch is that Athena comes from the Lake Tritonis area.

So,it seems to stand corrected that they migrated across the Tunisia promontory to Malta, Sicily, Peloponnesia and then to Crete, and they also were accompanied by members of the Qadan culture evolving into the Daneans,Dorians. The Qadans also migrated to Egypt through Libya as well. One of the first dynasty Kings of Egypt was also Djer and Den, by Coincidence. A rather unusual name for a Kh culture, but perhaps could reason from bloodlines to the Qadan culture. Even out of this word Qadan we have the Kh sound and the D sound common with Djet.

It also makes sense as you stated Atalante that Osiris is from Syria where he evolved from the Cretean Zeus and Io which compares with Io's migration patterns.

This also would make more sense with the colonization of Lower Egypt and not really that Egyptians came from Hephaestus, rather, Thebes,Thinis, I would say.

Hephaestus founded the City of Sais which also makes sense with Naucratis. What's a real kick in the pants for everyone is that, this all ties in nicely with the Sphinx and the Great Pyramids of antiquity at Memphis.

That is according to Fatherland, Atlantis.

John_Sweat;

Thankyou for taking the time to read the Tribes threads. I'm sending you an Iron to wrinkle the bags out from under your eyes. I hope you enjoyed following our learning lessons,mistakes and acomplishments in our research. As you can tell from the immense study time involved in researching Atlantis, it's time I replace these old toothpicks holding my eyelids apart!

Your query on the Phrygians is quite interesting, and earlier in Tribes I mentioned the story of Psammetic I(656 bC) raising the two children in captivity from birth until they spoke a word to see who came first the Phrygians or the Egyptians. The children of course, spoke the word "Bekos", which meant "Bread" in Phrygian. So, at that time, they thought the Phrygians were first.

Also, thanks to your link, we find mention that the ancient Phoenician,Phrygian Inscription mentioned, states that it was written by Dredas the son of Gordios.

What I'm seeing is that this could be the same Gordos mentioned by the Etruscans when they talk about the sceptre of Araklum,(Orichalcum) that he was in possession of in their script about Greece.
Thank you for that link, which it is hard to find anything on Gordos.

The Phrygian script; http://www.geocities.com/stojangr/index.html

The Etruscan script;
R219 to the Ionians of the flesh I dispatch the matters of the Atigerie of Achaia (Greece) they hold dear the Araklum
R229 of Gordos you are of you to celebrate; I forbid; the brothers through the Atigerie on that account we long for

This is from Mel Copelands Etruscan translation of the Tavola Eugubine Script "R".
http://www.maravot.com/Translation_T.EugubineR.html

by Riven and Atalante
(and a little help from our friends at AR!)

Atlantis = Atlant (Fatherland)
Aita (Basque) Patre /Atta (Greek) Pater(Latin) it(Egyptian)

Atlas(Father’s son, to raise sky)
Nw Africa (Guanches, Aterians Capsians, Berbers).

Gadeirus (green body of rivers)
Iberia, Basque, Cimmerian, Portugal, Spain
(Greeks also referred to as: Eumeleus=rich in sheep)

Ampheres (to rest,at both sides)[Phoroneus?] Taranto>Otranto
Sicily, Sardinia, Tyrrhenia, Malta (Tarxien >Tarshin)

Evaemon(fortunate woman)[Athena?]
Algeria, Tunisia, Libya ( Atalantes, Qadan, Maxyan, Lotophagi)

Mneseus memory of a great warrior (from a Trojan)[Zeus?]
Crete (Minos, Amnisus)

Autochthon(earthborn)
Peloponnesia, Attica, Cyclades.

Elassipus (horse riding, rulers)[Epaphus?]
Anatolia (Phrygia, Ionia, Caria, Ephaesus)

Mestor(NNE middle, Suitor)[Agenor?]
Phoenicia, Syria (Byblos, Tyre)

Azaes (Heat)
Mauretania (Azas, Azamor)

Diaprepes (relating to God, highly distinguished)[King Belus?]
Egypt, Nubia, Ethiopia.

The Founders of Atlantis

Poseidon (Sea God, Land God, EarthShaker, savior of ships, horses,chained feet) Cleito’s lover.

Evenor (primeval firstborn) Cleito’s Father

Leucippe (Grove of White Horses, Spartan surname) Cleito’s mother

Cleito (emperor’s favorite)[Libya?] Acropolis hill, Atlantis Royal City.

Based on Atlantean migration 10,840 bC (estimated 1,240 years of growth)
Countries Liberated after Great Battle and Atlantis sinking (2850-9600 bC)

Riven dates a more precise estimate of Nov 1st, 6482 bC 21:00hrs for the great flood and sinking of Atlantis. Based on the Eye of Ra myth, ecliptic alignment of planets, Mt.Vesuvius and Mt. Hekla eruptions, Bosphorous straite (Black Sea) flooding and All Saints Day of Destruction Nov 1 and the margin of error between Greek Lunar Cycles and Egyptian Sun Cycles.(345yrs/1000)

Ironically Nov 1,1755, an earthquake from African/European plate tectonic pressure, triggered a great Tsunami that wiped out Lisbon, Azores, Madeira, Canaries and NW Africa.

ATLANTES-of Libyan people
ATLANTICUS-of Mount Atlas
ATLANTIAS-female
ATLANTIADES-male

The word Atlantis];
Re: Basque Translation by Riven

"The main evergreen forest is born a joyous miracle at dawn the abundant monument increases to unite the future arrival and remain loyal to the secret of creation."

Tribes of Atlantis website; www.mts.net/~perasa

Atalante -proposed these names also mean a working class such as Diaprepes=Priestly or Mestor=Architect

Brass+Tin+Orichalcum.

We don't really know for sure what exactly Orichalcum is but we do know Brass and Tin, and they represented two of the technologies for coating walls.

It seems reasonable to conclude that this also was part of the Orichalcum recipe, Brass and Tin.

So for the most part Electrum was a highly prized ancient aquired skill which suits the recipe also.

Brass+Tin+Electrum

A pinch of Elexir, 2 drams of sulphur,and an ounce of vinegar,7 drams cinnabar,1 strand copper,a prayer to the Alchemical God, and ......poof!! A Frog?

Orichalcum metal.

I still think it was coated with a amber resin though for that slick feel and duraguard coating.

But then around 2500 BC the excavator says bronze items became rare at Troy. In general, archaeologists are suggesting that the Cyclades island of Syros created a copper mine and began manufacturing and marketing bronze items at approximately the SAME time when Troy ceased its maritime connections and its bronze trade.

But the discovery (during the 1990's) that Helike was also a "bronze age" city as early as 2300 BC (along with the island of Syros) is too important to ignore.

This provides an eerie match for the confrontation between the Pleiades and the Hellenes. Electra was the Pleiad associated with Troy. (Although I haven't found any Pleiad who has connections to the island of Syros.) Merope was the Pleiad who first made contact with the Hellenes.

This match between archaeology and mythology could also explain Solon's mention of Hephaistos (=metalworking) as the source of the ancient Greeks/Athenians in the Atlantis theme.

At that time tin was coming from the Kestrel mining complex in the Taurus mountains near Tarsus Turkey. (The island of Syros had set up a source for "island copper". Helike, on the other hand, apparently found a way to import "mountain copper" from the north, perhaps from Macedonia.)

In the above paragraphs I have sketched out a geological and archaeological explanation for what was happening in the Aegean during 2500-1900 BC. (But radical changes were coming. The Middle Minoan empire of Crete rose into its glory days around 1900 BC, thus surpassing the Cyclades culture).

In my next post, I will discuss what the GREEK MYTHS claim was happening in GREECE for the period around 1850-1350 BC. (e.g. Carlos Parada's mythology website dates Aegialius around 1850 BC.)

Here is a chart about the descendents of Deucalion, from Carlos Parada's mythology website. I only want to call attention aproximately 6 of the people on this chart. http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/DescendantsDeucalion1.html

AMPHICHTHYON is a son of Deucalion who migrates south from Thessaly to Attica, and becomes king. At that time Sicyon/Aegialia, near the isthmus of Corinth, was under the control of its 14th ruler. Presumably the isthmus of Corinth had been closed off for about 4 centuries (1850-1450 BC) during those 14 earliest rulers at Sicyon/Aegialia. http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/MythicalChronology.html

Those first 14 rulers at Aegialia/Sicyon correspond in time to the famous Middle Minoan period of Crete (ca. 1850-1450 BC). Presumably this is also a substantial portion of the era where Plato's Atlantis theme reports that the Greeks remember "only the names" and not the activities of the famous Greeks who were associated with the fabled war with Atlantis/Poseidon.

The other son of Deucalion is HELLEN, who is the fabled ancestor of all the Hellenic people.

The two most crucial sons of Hellen are AEOLUS 1 and XUTHUS. (i.e. the other son DORUS, ancestor of the Dorians, was probably grafted onto the Hellene family tree at a late date. Note that NO DESCENDENTS OF DORUS took part in the Trojan War.)

Aeolus 1 founded the Aeolian tribe of the Hellenes.

SISYPHUS, son of Aeolus 1, migrated south from Thessaly, founding the city of Corinth and marrying the Pleiad named Merope. This was the first contact between Hellenes and Pleiades. The marriage may not have been entirely blissful, since Sisyphus also took other wives (Tyro and, perhaps, Anticlia 1). And descendents of Merope are sometimes said to have fled west into the Atlantic ocean. Due to the recent collapse of the Middle Minoan empire (ca 1470 BC), the sea lanes leading to the Atlantic were undefended at that time. However one son of Merope succeeded Sisyphus as king of Corinth.

Xuthus, son of Hellen migrated south from Thessaly, and went to live near Helike, slightly west of Corinth. (During this migration, he passed through Athens during the reign of king Erechtheus.)

Obviously Sisyphus and Xuthus had set up a beach head, by which the Hellenes wanted to enter the Peloponesian penisula.

Xuthus had two famous sons, Achaeus and Ion, who founded the Achaean and the Ionian tribes.

ION married the daughter of Selinus,