Another piece of the puzzle which brings to mind, is that if the Greeks were to have been before the Egyptians,and the Egyptians told the story.

Then the strongest link to the old fable between Egypt and Greece lies in the chronology of Io, Epaphus 1,Libya and Belus 1 around 1500 to 1600 bC. Just before or around, pro epi, Deukalion.

After that it goes back to Egypt for 1600 years.(3100bC)

The Argos and the Mycenae up to Phoroneus 1750 bC

And Sicyon with Aegialeus 2 around 1900 bC. (Apis Bull)

And Anatolia and Phoenicia, basically.

And Malta and Crete (1900 bC).

Not much happening out in the ol west now is dere pardner?

Why the scarcity?

Disaster?

Why does Carthage and Tartessos and Allis Ubbo come to life around 1000 bC?

Other than what Herodotus mentions.

Or Critias when he said "Seismos" a tremor or shock.

Tsunamis, flooding,Volcanic eruptions, earthquakes,mudslides,Ataxia....disaster.

Asteroid strikes Atlantis, triggers Vesuvius,Hekla in 6482 bC, rinses clean and floods the western land up to Egypt, millions disappear, the Black Sea is flooded,Lake Tritonis forms, Dogone Africa mystic lake forms,Nile,Niger merge, Atlantis sinks. Crete,Peleponnesia, Cyclades,Malta,Cyprus form due to dense population and sheer interest!

Eastern mediterranean main hangout, civilizations start over heading westward, back to Carthage with their Atlantis Legends.

Hyperboreans can finally sip a Tequila Sunrise on the Beach!!

QUOTE >> Just want to say Hello to Magii Rajesh and Erick Wright who we haven't heard from in a while. Anything new? Heard about Araklum? << UNQUOTE

Thanx for remembering...

And if you are asking about “Araklum”, can you please elaborate with some more specific references. BTW is he some of our fellow thinker or some ancient name?

And please keep on with your valuable research uninterruptedly.

Araklum is an Etruscan word, which Riven found in some Etruscan fragments.

That`s why we have to investigate the different relevances from all the information in all historical records, - before we may accept or deny its relevance, objectivity and importance...

Thats exactly why I do wish to see your last questions being elaborated by professionals. Or by anyone with a clear head and a scientific attitude. Maybe somebody on this forum could do a real survey in the matter?

As far as I have learned from this and other discussions there is still NO answers given, - neither scientific nor "philosophic" - to any of these specific questions. But I am quite sure that the debate are about to arise...

Just wondering who will be the first to do the nessecary work closing in on this question?!

Regards,

Regards,

A Gene That Keeps Species Apart.
Nearly 150 years after Darwin published On the Origin of Species, biologists are still debating how new species emerge from old--and even the definition of species itself. Darwin demurred from offering a hard and fast definition, suggesting that such a thing was "undiscoverable."

In this issue of PLoS Biology, Daniel Barbash and colleagues identify a true speciation gene in the fruitfly Drosophila.

One of the more enduring definitions characterizes organisms as distinct reproductive units and species as groups of individuals that can interbreed and produce viable, fertile offspring. The lack of genetic exchange between species, called reproductive isolation, lies at the heart of this definition.

At the heart of reproductive isolation is a phenomenon called hybrid incompatibility, in which closely related species are capable of mating but produce inviable or sterile offspring.

The classic example of hybrid incompatibility is the male donkeyfemale horse cross, which yields a sterile mule, but many other cases have been documented among mammals, and thousands of plant crosses produce infertile offspring.

To elucidate the molecular mechanisms of reproductive isolation, biologists must first identify candidate hybrid incompatibility genes.

Species- or lineage- specific functional divergence is an essential trait of these genes. (That is, the genes evolve different functions after the species diverge from their common ancestor.) While several such candidate genes have been identified in the fruitfly Drosophila melanogaster, none has been shown to display this functional divergence.

Now, working with D. melanogaster and its sibling species D. simulans and D. mauritiana, Daniel Barbash, Philip Awadalla, and Aaron Tarone establish the functional divergence of a candidate hybrid compatibility gene and confirm its status as a true speciation gene.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/06/040616065243.htm

quote:

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Riven, do you remember where that post you wrote about the Egyptian counterparts to the Greek gods?

---

I don't think I ever gave you the full translation to the Greek Gods as this would take some more time.

We talked about this in Tribes I-17:20 and17: 22
http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000637-17.html

quote:

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Cleasterwood:
Maybe this site will help;

Egyptian Mythology; www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/egyptian_mythology.htm

---

The Ennead;
----------------------
ATUM (Ptah)= Uranus
SHU=Atlas or Tartarus?Pontus?
TEFNUT=Gaia?Hemera?
GEB=Cronos?Apollo?
NUT=Eros,Nyx?
OSIRIS=Zeus?
ISIS=(Neith)=Athena or Aphrodite?
SETH=Hephaestus? Typhon?
NEPTHYS=Hathor

I'm not exactly sure who exactly fits where, however we have a basic idea and feel free to correct them.

What seems interesting according to the Ennead, Chronologically is that Shu and Atlas don't seem to fit together in time if we consider that after the creator Atum or Ptah that Shu was next.

Where in Greek Mythology we have Uranus,Chaos,Gaia,Tartarus,Eros,Nyx,Erebus,Hemera,Aether,Pontus,Titans,Cyclopes and Hecatoncheires in the very beginning.

quote:

---

Agenor 1 was by birth an Egyptian, but he departed to Phoenicia and reigned there. According to some Agenor 1 is the son of Poseidon and Libya, but others affirm that his parents were Belus 1 and Anchinoe.

---

Belus(1500 bC) seems to be before Agenor (1450 bC).

Seems to agree with the others who claim Agenor as the son of Belus who was before Deukalion and that he was by birth an Egyptian.

quote:

---

King Belus 1 of Egypt was son of Poseidon and Libya, and was also the father of Aegyptus 1 and Danaus 1 [see DANAIDS]. His mother Libya was, in turn, daughter of Epaphus 1 and Memphis 2. And King Epaphus 1 of Egypt, from whom sprang the Libyans and the Ethiopians, was the founder of the city of Memphis in Egypt and the son of Zeus and Io, the girl who was once turned into a cow, but who is one of the Three Main Ancestors.

If Phoenix 1 would be considered to be the father of Europa, everything would amount to the same, because Phoenix 1, after whom Phoenicia is called, is said to be the son either of Agenor 1 or of Belus 1, and we would, also in this way, arrive to Io. Nothing is known about Europa's presumptive mothers.

---

Lets look at their lineage:

1600 bC........Zeus-----Io

1550 bC.......Epaphus 1------Memphis 2

1525 bC......Poseidon-------Libya

1500 bC......Belus 1------

1475 bC.....Agenor 1/Phoenix1/Aegyptus1/Danaus1

1450 bC.....Europa >Phoenicia to Crete.

Let's look at the Egytian Pharaoh list from 1600 bC-1400 bC.

Please bear in mind that King Menes founded Memphis. (3100 bC) which either contradicts Epaphus 1 or they're the same and we need to push these dates further into antiquity,which I always suspect needs to be done like the Atlantis story.

The above Chronology is what I derive from Carlos Parada's Greek Mythology.

Which brings us to the second intermediate period,13th Dynasty 1786 bC and into the New kingdom at the 18th Dynasty upto 1320 bC.

So, retrospectively,

Zeus-Io>>>> Hyksos kings>> Salitis (Sheshi) in 1674-1567 bC.

Epaphus 1=Egyptian King Apepi 1 1600-1560 bC.

Poseidon-Libya>>>>Amenhotep I or Thutmose I 1546-1515bC.

Libya=Hatshepsut 1498-1483 bC.

Belus 1=Thutmose III 1504-1450 bC.

Agenor 1 > Amenhotep II 1450-1412 bC.

Phoenix1>Thutmose IV 1412-1402 bC.

Aegyptus1>Amenhotep III 1402-1364 bC.

If a specific monkey are carrying a gene-pool that is very close to our (98 % similarity) we may conclude that there must be a biological relation.

Furthermore geneticans say that the closest relative to the dolphins are the goats. The close similarity have made geneticans conclude that the dolphin in fact is a mammal that developed from a goat! Moreover the conclusion states that the off-springs of a certain goat started returning to the ocean, changing from a land<animal to a highly developed sea-mammal...!!!

If this conclusions stands the test of time we may have reason to believe that the goat have a certain affinity and capability of cross-breeding...

It may also correspond with the ancient old tradition called astrology, - where the picture of the symbolic "sea-goat" is known as the first sign of the zodiac.

Behind the name

the etymology and history of first names
www.behindthename.com/nmc/myth.html

ATALANTA f
Usage: Greek Mythology
Means "equal in weight", derived from Greek atalantos, a word related to talanton meaning "a scale, a balance". In Greek legend she was a fast-footed maiden who refused to marry anyone who could not beat her in a race. She was eventually defeated by Hippomenes, who dropped three golden apples during the race causing her to stop to pick them up.

ATHENA f
Usage: Greek Mythology
Meaning unknown, perhaps derived from Greek ather "sharp" and aine "praised". Athena was the Greek goddess of wisdom and warfare, the daughter of Zeus and the patron goddess of the city of Athens in Greece. She is associated with the olive tree and the owl.

ATLAS m
Usage: Greek Mythology
Pronounced: AT-las
Means "not enduring" from the Greek negative, prefix a combined with tlan "to endure". In Greek mythology he was a Titan punished by Zeus by being forced to support the world on his shoulders.

EVADNE f
Usage: Greek Mythology
Meaning unknown, though the first element is likely derived from Greek eu "good". In Greek legend Evadne was the wife of
Capaneus. After Capaneus was killed by a lightning bolt sent from Zeus she committed suicide by throwing herself onto his burning body.

EVANDER (1) m
Usage: Greek Mythology (Latinized), Roman Mythology
Pronounced: e-VAN-dur
From the Greek Euandros which meant "good man", derived from Greek eu "good" and aner "man" (genitive andros). In Roman mythology Evander was an Arcadian hero of the Trojan War who founded the city of Pallantium near the spot where Rome was later built.

HERAKLES m
Usage: Greek Mythology
Means "glory of Hera" from the name of the goddess Hera combined with Greek kleos "glory". He was a hero in Greek and Roman mythology, the son of Zeus and the mortal woman Alcmene. He completed twelve labours in order to become a god.

HIPPOLYTOS m
Usage: Greek Mythology, Ancient Greek
Means "freer of horses" from Greek hippos "horse" and lyien "to loosen". In Greek legend he was the son of Theseus who
was tragically loved by his stepmother Phaedra. This was also the name of a 3rd-century theologian, saint and martyr.

KLIO f
Usage: Greek Mythology
Derived from Greek kleos meaning "glory". In Greek mythology she was the muse of history and heroic poetry. She was said to have introduced the alphabet to Greece.

KLYTIË f
Usage: Greek Mythology
Derived from Greek klytos meaning "famous, noble". In Greek myth Klytië was an ocean nymph who loved the sun god Helios. Her love was not returned, and she pined away staring at him until she was transformed into a heliotrope flower, whose head moves to follow the sun

LEDA f
Usage: Greek Mythology
Possibly means "woman" from Greek. In Greek myth she was the mother of Castor, Pollux and Helen by the god Zeus, who came upon her in the form of a swan.

LETO f
Usage: Greek Mythology
Meaning unknown. In Greek mythology she was the mother of Apollo and Artemis by Zeus.

LUCINA f
Usage: Roman Mythology
Derived from Latin lucus meaning "grove", but later associated with lux "light". This was the name of a Roman goddess of childbirth.

LUGH m
Usage: Irish Mythology
Irish form of Lug, the name of a Celtic god of the sun and craftsmanship, meaning "shining one" in Old Irish(ultimately from the Indo-European root *leuk "light, brightness"). Irish legend tells how he led the Tuatha De Danann against the Fomorii who were led by his grandfather Balor. Lugh killed Balor by shooting a stone into his giant eye.

AGAMEMNON m
Usage: Greek Mythology
Pronounced: ag-a-MEM-nahn
Possibly meaning "very steadfast" in Greek.

MENELAUS m
Usage: Greek Mythology (Latinized)
Means "withstanding the people" from Greek meno "to last, to withstand" and laos "the people".

POSEIDON m
Usage: Greek Mythology
Pronounced: po-SIE-dun
Possibly derived from Greek posis "husband, lord" and de "earth". In Greek mythology Poseidon was the unruly god of the sea and earthquakes, the brother of Zeus. He was often depicted carrying a trident and riding in a chariot drawn by white horses.

PROMETHEUS m
Usage: Greek Mythology
Derived from Greek promethes meaning "foresightful".

PROTEUS m
Usage: Greek Mythology
Derived from Greek protos meaning "first". In Greek mythology this was the name of a prophetic god of the sea

THOTH m
Usage: Egyptian Mythology (Hellenized)
Greek form of Egyptian Tehuti, perhaps meaning "he who balances".

THUTMOSE m
Usage: Egyptian Mythology
Pronounced: thoot-MO-se, thoot-MOS
Means "son of Thoth", composed of Thoth, the name of an Egyptian god, combined with the Egyptian word mes "son" or mesu "be born".

URANUS m
Usage: Greek Mythology (Latinized)
Pronounced: yuw-RAY-nus
From Greek Ouranos, the name of the husband of Gaia and the father of the Titans in Greek mythology. His name is derived from ouranos meaning "the heavens". This is also the name of the seventh planet in the solar system.

ZEUS m
Usage: Greek Mythology
Pronounced: ZOOS
The name of a Greek god, related to the old Indo-European god dyeus whose name probably meant "shine" or "sky".

code:

---

#!/usr/bin/perl 
print "Content-type: text/html\n\n"; 
print 

          NU (primeval waters)
                |
Ptah=Sekhet  Nieth (s/c) Thoth (s/c) Khepera
   |           |
Khnemu         |
               |
               |
            Ra= Tmu  Apep (her spittle)
               |
Bastet   Hathor  Shu=Tefnut   Ma'at=Thoth
                      |
                  Geb = Nut
                      |
        Isis=Osiris  = Nephthys=Seth
            |        |
     Hathor=Horus   Anubis

---

In Egyptian this word for balance is Tehuti or "he who balances which relates to Thoth.

Where also as we've mentioned that Ampheres means to rest at both sides or balanced in a sense.

Talanton and Tehuti also verify the unique relationship that the Greeks had with Egypt.

Atlantis with its concentric rings would also symbolize a balanced design in a sense.

So Ampheres,Talanton and Tehuti seem connected.

This could also imply that Thoth had also visited Italy and Greece or the ancients from around lake Tritonis carried this word back to Italy and Greece.

What is peculiar is that Talanton and Tehuti are closely related in that they both start with TALANT or TEHUT.

Here is a partial quote:

Poseidon-Libya>>>>Amenhotep I or Thutmose I 1546-1515bC.

Libya=Hatshepsut 1498-1483 bC.

Belus 1=Thutmose III 1504-1450 bC.

Agenor 1 > Amenhotep II 1450-1412 bC.

Phoenix1>Thutmose IV 1412-1402 bC.

Aegyptus1>Amenhotep III 1402-1364 bC.

Danaus1>Amenhotep IV 1350-1334 bC.
endquote

The last 4 Geeek men on your list should have filled only 2 generations, since they were 2 pairs of brothers.

After making this change, I want to point out a curious synchronism.

Phoenix sails from Phoenicia to Africa in Greek myth. And you match him to roughly the time when Thutmose III had conquored all the Middle East for Egypt. Therefore, escaping from Egyptian dominance may have been a good reason for proto-Phoenicians to begin exploring the Western regions of Africa.

Click on the Q icon under the little picture for a bigger picture.

Click and hold the mouse to move around.

Enjoy!

Hephaistos (Vulcan)

(Greek) Khalkeia=Of the Bronzes (Festival)
Araklum(Etruscan)=Orichalcum(Greek)

quote:

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"In the days of old the gods had the whole earth distributed among them by allotment ... Now different gods had their allotments in different places which they set in order. Hephaistos and Athene, who were brother and sister, and sprang from the same father, having a common nature, and being united also in the love of philosophy and art, both obtained as their common portion this land [Athens], which was naturally adapted for wisdom and virtue; and there they implanted brave children of the soil, and put into their minds the order of government; their names are preserved, but their actions have disappeared by reason of the destruction of those who received the tradition, and the lapse of ages." -Plato Critias

---

Hephaistos was identified with the Egyptian god Ptah.

"I also heard other things at Memphis [in Egypt] in conversation with the priests of Hephaistos [Ptah]." -Herodotus 2.3.1

"Built in it [Memphis in Egypt is a] ... great and most noteworthy temple of Hephaistos [Ptah]." -Herodotus 2.99.4

King Menes was the first to build a temple of the cult of Hephaistos (Ptah) in Memphis Egypt.

The other cults of Hephaistos was practiced in Attica, Lemnos, Mt. Aitna,(Sikelia)Sicily, and Elis(S.Greece)

quote:

---

"There are also several Volcanos' [Hephaistos']; the first, the son of Caelus [Ouranos], was reputedly the father by Minerva of the Apollo [Erikhthonios] said by the ancient historians to be the tutelary deity of Athens; the second, the son of the Nile, is named by the Egyptians Phthas [Ptah], and is deemed the guardian of Egypt; the third is the son of the third Jupiter [Zeus] and of Juno [Hera], and is fabled to have been the master of a smithy at Lemnos; the fourth is the son of Memalius [a Latin god], and lord of the islands near Sicily which used to be named the Isles of Volcanus [the Lipari islands]." –De Natura Deorum 3.22

---

This revelation testifies that Hephaistos and Ptah are the same divinities which is strong evidence of the ancestry of Greece and Egypt. Though Greece must have adopted this after Menes (3k-1500 bC)

Critias related the story that Poseidon also inherited Atlantis in the days of old in the time of allotement by the Gods.

Hephaistos and Athena were the founders of Attica and Athens.

If the Greeks adopted Ptah as Hephaistos, then they would have thought of Attica to be far older than themselves and probably compared it to the time of Menes.

Menes introduced the cult of Ptah, so who passed it on to Menes even further into Antiquity?

And it also seems highly likely that the cults that practiced Hephaistos would be the ones fighting with the Greeks against Atlantis,and probably denotes some of the first inhabitants of Greece.

To me, this also carries weight in an older Atlantis because of the fact that Critias related his story also to the onset of the beginning of Attica and then up to Deukalion and the time when Poseidon received his allotement.
www.theoi.com/Cult/HephaistosCult.html]

re: The Egyptians (The Atlantean Mirror)

XXXVII. They are religious beyond measure, more than any other people; (Diaprepes)and the following are among their customs. They drink from cups of bronze, which they clean out daily; this is done not by some but by all. [2] They are especially careful always to wear newly-washed linen. They practise circumcision for cleanliness' sake; for they would rather be clean than more becoming. Their priests shave the whole body every other day, so that no lice or anything else foul may infest them as they attend upon the gods. [3] The priests wear a single linen garment and sandals of papyrus:1 they may have no other kind of clothing or footwear. Twice a day and twice every night they wash in cold water. Their religious observances are, one may say, innumerable. [4] But also they receive many benefits: they do not consume or spend anything of their own; sacred food is cooked for them, beef and goose are brought in great abundance to each man every day, and wine of grapes is given to them, too. They may not eat fish. [5] The Egyptians sow no beans in their country; if any grow, they will not eat them either raw or cooked; the priests cannot endure even to see them, considering beans an unclean kind of legume. Many (not only one) are dedicated to the service of each god. One of these is the high priest; and when a high priest dies, his son succeeds to his office.

XXXVIII. They believe that bulls belong to Epaphus,1 and for this reason scrutinize them as follows; if they see even one black hair on them, the bull is considered impure. [2] One of the priests, appointed to the task, examines the beast, making it stand and lie, and drawing out its tongue, to determine whether it is clean of the stated signs which I shall indicate hereafter.2 He looks also to the hairs of the tail, to see if they grow naturally. [3] If it is clean in all these respects, the priest marks it by wrapping papyrus around the horns, then smears it with sealing-earth and stamps it with his ring; and after this they lead the bull away. But the penalty is death for sacrificing a bull that the priest has not marked. Such is the manner of approving the beast; I will now describe how it is sacrificed.

1 Epaphus is the Greek form of Apis or Hapi, the bull-god of Memphis; for bulls

XL. But in regard to the disembowelling and burning of the victims, there is a different way for each sacrifice. I shall now, however, speak of that goddess whom they consider the greatest, and in whose honor they keep highest festival. [2] After praying in the foregoing way, they take the whole stomach out of the flayed bull, leaving the entrails and the fat in the carcass, and cut off the legs, the end of the loin, the shoulders, and the neck. [3] Having done this, they fill what remains of the carcass with pure bread, honey, raisins, figs, frankincense, myrrh, and other kinds of incense, and then burn it, pouring a lot of oil on it. [4] They fast before the sacrifice, and while it is burning, they all make lamentation; and when their lamentation is over, they set out a meal of what is left of the victim.

XLI. All Egyptians sacrifice unblemished bulls and bull-calves; they may not sacrifice cows: these are sacred to Isis. [2] For the images of Isis are in woman's form, horned like a cow, exactly as the Greeks picture Io, and cows are held by far the most sacred of all beasts of the herd by all Egyptians alike. [3] For this reason, no Egyptian man or woman will kiss a Greek man, or use a knife, or a spit, or a cauldron belonging to a Greek, or taste the flesh of an unblemished bull that has been cut up with a Greek knife. [4] Cattle that die are dealt with in the following way. Cows are cast into the river, bulls are buried by each city in its suburbs, with one or both horns uncovered for a sign; then, when the carcass is decomposed, and the time appointed is at hand, a boat comes to each city from the island called Prosopitis, [5] an island in the Delta, nine schoeni in circumference. There are many other towns on Prosopitis; the one from which the boats come to gather the bones of the bulls is called Atarbekhis;1 a temple of Aphrodite stands in it of great sanctity. [6] From this town many go out, some to one town and some to another, to dig up the bones, which they then carry away and all bury in one place. As they bury the cattle, so do they all other beasts at death. Such is their ordinance respecting these also; for they, too, may not be killed.

1 No doubt from Athor or Hathor, under which name Isis was often worshipped.

XLII. All that have a temple of Zeus of Thebes or are of the Theban district sacrifice goats, but will not touch sheep. [2] For no gods are worshipped by all Egyptians in common except Isis and Osiris, who they say is Dionysus; these are worshipped by all alike. Those who have a temple of Mendes1 or are of the Mendesian district sacrifice sheep, but will not touch goats. [3] The Thebans, and those who by the Theban example will not touch sheep, give the following reason for their ordinance:2 they say that Heracles wanted very much to see Zeus and that Zeus did not want to be seen by him, but that finally, when Heracles prayed, Zeus contrived [4] to show himself displaying the head and wearing the fleece of a ram which he had flayed and beheaded. It is from this that the Egyptian images of Zeus have a ram's head; and in this, the Egyptians are imitated by the Ammonians, who are colonists from Egypt and Ethiopia and [speak a language compounded of the tongues of both countries. [5] It was from this, I think, that the Ammonians got their name, too; for the Egyptians call Zeus “Amon”. The Thebans, then, consider rams sacred for this reason, and do not sacrifice them. [6] But one day a year, at the festival of Zeus, they cut in pieces and flay a single ram and put the fleece on the image of Zeus, as in the story; then they bring an image of Heracles near it. Having done this, all that are at the temple mourn for the ram, and then bury it in a sacred coffin.

1 Mendes, Greek form of Binded, a town in the Delta where Osiris was worshipped in the form of a ram, according to monuments. Here Mendes apparently = Osiris.

2 The Greeks identified with Heracles an Egyptian god Shu (called at Thebes Chonsu-Neferhotep,aagathodaimôn).

XLIII. Concerning Heracles, I heard it said that he was one of the twelve gods. But nowhere in Egypt could I hear anything about the other Heracles, whom the Greeks know. [2] I have indeed a lot of other evidence that the name of Heracles did not come from Hellas to Egypt, but from Egypt to Hellas (and in Hellas to those Greeks who gave the name Heracles to the son of Amphitryon), besides this: that Amphitryon and Alcmene, the parents of this Heracles, were both Egyptian by descent1 ; and that the Egyptians deny knowing the names Poseidon and the Dioscuri, nor are these gods reckoned among the gods of Egypt. [3] Yet if they got the name of any deity from the Greeks, of these not least but in particular would they preserve a recollection, if indeed they were already making sea voyages and some Greeks, too, were seafaring men, as I expect and judge; so that the names of these gods would have been even better known to the Egyptians than the name of Heracles. [4] But Heracles is a very ancient god in Egypt; as the Egyptians themselves say, the change of the eight gods to the twelve, one of whom they acknowledge Heracles to be, was made seventeen thousand years before the reign of Amasis.

XLIV. Moreover, wishing to get clear information about this matter where it was possible so to do, I took ship for Tyre in Phoenicia, where I had learned by inquiry that there was a holy temple of Heracles.1 [2] There I saw it, richly equipped with many other offerings, besides two pillars, one of refined gold, one of emerald: a great pillar that shone at night; and in conversation with the priests, I asked how long it was since their temple was built. [3] I found that their account did not tally with the belief of the Greeks, either; for they said that the temple of the god was founded when Tyre first became a city, and that was two thousand three hundred years ago. At Tyre I saw yet another temple of the so-called Thasian Heracles. [4] Then I went to Thasos, too, where I found a temple of Heracles built by the Phoenicians, who made a settlement there when they voyaged in search of Europe; now they did so as much as five generations before the birth of Heracles the son of Amphitryon in Hellas. [5] Therefore, what I have discovered by inquiry plainly shows that Heracles is an ancient god. And furthermore, those Greeks, I think, are most in the right, who have established and practise two worships of Heracles, sacrificing to one Heracles as to an immortal, and calling him the Olympian, but to the other bringing offerings as to a dead hero2 .

1 The Tyrian god Melkart.
www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126;query=chapter%3D%23262;layout=;loc=2.45.1

Wasn't that a fascinating lesson in history by Herodotus?

Imagine that, seventeen thousand years before Amasis. Wowsers!!

No wait, maybe it was 1700 years before or 170 years before, oh those poor Scholars are gonna flip!

Atlantis was very old.

However, there is a lot of Truth in Herodotus so why would I say he lied?

As you know, I am a believer in the older Atlantis, too, but, in speaking of why Herodotus might have lied. Just to play devil's advocate, there is this quote from Joseph Jochman's "How Old Are the Pyramids," where he is called the "father of lies." Take it for what it is worth:

Let’s begin first with looking at the age of the Great Pyramid. The conservative historians’ entire case for dating the Great Pyramid to the Fourth Dynasty rests upon two major pieces of evidence. The first is the story of Herodotus, who in 443 B.C. visited Egypt and recounted how Pharaoh Cheops (the Greek name for Khufu) built the Great Pyramid during his reign with 100,000 men in 20 years. However, we now know this story is highly questionable. Even his contemporaries called Herodotus the "Father of Lies." Not only do the construction estimates he gave not work, but Herodotus, as an Initiate in the Egyptian Mystery Schools, was sworn to secrecy regarding the true nature of the Pyramid, and he more than likely copied a fictitious tale about the monument that was then in circulation among the common masses. The Greek historian’s account stands in sharp contrast to most other Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, Roman, Hermetic, Coptic and medieval Arabic scholarly sources which agree that the Great Pyramid was not constructed during the time frame of Pharaoh Khufu or Dynastic Egypt, but was the product of the "Age of the Gods" thousands of years earlier."

This is a great article, by the way, in case you haven't read it.

Critias: Written 360 bC by Plato (Jowett)

Timaeus. How thankful I am, Socrates, that I have arrived at last, and, like a weary traveller after a long journey, may be at rest! And I pray the being who always was of old, and has now been by me revealed, to grant that my words may endure in so far as they have been spoken truly and acceptably to him; but if unintentionally I have said anything wrong, I pray that he will impose upon me a just retribution, and the just retribution of him who errs is that he should be set right. Wishing, then, to speak truly in future concerning the
generation of the gods, I pray him to give me knowledge, which of all medicines is the most perfect and best. And now having offered my prayer I deliver up the argument to Critias, who is to speak next according to our agreement.

Critias. And I, Timaeus, accept the trust

I too ask the same or greater forbearance for what I am about to say

For will any man of sense deny that you have spoken well?

and if I can recollect and recite enough of what was said by the priests and brought hither by Solon,

Concerning the country the Egyptian priests said what is not only probable but manifestly true,

Even the remnant of Attica which now exists may compare with any region in the world for the variety and excellence of its fruits and the suitableness of its pastures to every sort of animal, which proves what I am saying;

of which there may still be observed sacred memorials in places where fountains once existed; and this proves the truth of what I am saying.

and then occurred the extraordinary inundation, which was the third before the great destruction of Deucalion.

And next, if I have not forgotten what I heard when I was a child,

My great-grandfather, Dropides, had the original writing, which is still in my possession, and was carefully studied by me when I was a child

so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet.

All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea; and also, as has been already said, they held sway in our direction over the country within the Pillars as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia.

Now Atlas had a numerous and honourable family, and they retained the kingdom, the eldest son handing it on to his eldest for many generations

And at the very beginning they built the palace in the habitation of the god and of their ancestors, which they continued to ornament in successive generations, every king surpassing the one who went before him to the utmost of his power, until they made the building a marvel to behold for size and for beauty.

in the centre was a holy temple dedicated to Cleito and Poseidon, which remained inaccessible, and was surrounded by an enclosure of gold; this was the spot where the family of the ten princes first saw the light,

Here was Poseidon's own temple which was a stadium in length, and half a stadium in width, and of a proportionate height, having a strange barbaric appearance.

there was the god himself standing in a chariot-the charioteer of six winged horses-and of such a size that he touched the roof of the building with his head; around him there were a hundred Nereids riding on dolphins,

And around the temple on the outside were placed statues of gold of all the descendants of the ten kings and of their wives

They constructed buildings about them and planted suitable trees, also they made cisterns, some open to the heavens, others roofed over, to be used in winter as warm baths; there were the kings' baths, and the baths of private persons, which were kept apart; and there were

separate baths for women, and for horses and cattle

while the remainder was conveyed by aqueducts along the bridges to the outer circles

The docks were full of triremes and naval stores,

I have described the city and the environs of the ancient palace nearly in the words of Solon

I will now describe the plain, as it was fashioned by nature and by the labours of many generations of kings through long ages

The depth, and width, and length of this ditch were incredible, and gave the impression that a work of such extent, in addition to so many others, could never have been artificial. Nevertheless I must say what I was told.

Such was the military order of the royal city-the order of the other nine governments varied, and it would be wearisome to recount their several differences.

by the commands of Poseidon which the law had handed down. These were inscribed by the first kings on a pillar of orichalcum, which was situated in the middle of the island, at the temple of Poseidon,

they filled a bowl of wine

Then they drew from the bowl in golden cups

all of them put on most beautiful azure robes

they wrote down their sentences on a golden tablet, and dedicated it together with their robes to be a memorial.

There were many special laws affecting the several kings inscribed about the temples

Such was the vast power which the god settled in the lost island of Atlantis; and this he afterwards directed against our land for the following reasons, as tradition tells:

Timaeus;

Socrates; Hermocrates, I am assured by many witnesses that his genius and education qualify him to take part in any speculation of the kind.

Hermocrates; we talked the matter over, and he told us an ancient tradition, which I wish, Critias, that you would repeat to Socrates,

Crit. Then listen, Socrates, to a tale which, though strange, is certainly true, having been attested by Solon, who was the wisest of the seven sages. He was a relative and a dear friend of my great-grandfather, Dropides, as he himself says in many passages of his poems; and he told the story to Critias, my grandfather, who remembered and repeated it to us.

Soc. Very good. And what is this ancient famous action of the Athenians, which Critias declared, on the authority of Solon, to be not a mere legend, but an actual fact?

Crit. I will tell an old-world story which I heard from an aged man; for Critias, at the time of telling it, was as he said, nearly ninety years of age, and I was about ten.

About the greatest action which the Athenians ever did, and which ought to have been the most famous, but, through the lapse of time and the destruction of the actors, it has not come down to us.

Tell us, said the other, the whole story, and how and from whom Solon heard this veritable tradition

To this city(Sais) came Solon, and was received there with great honour; he asked the priests who were most skilful in such matters, about antiquity, and made the discovery that neither he nor any other Hellene knew anything worth mentioning about the times of old

And I will tell you why. There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water,

And whatever happened either in your country or in ours, or in any other region of which we are informed-if there were any actions noble or great or in any other way remarkable, they have all been written down by us of old, and are preserved in our temples.

Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided with letters and the other requisites of civilized life, after the usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a pestilence, comes pouring down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters and education; and so you have to begin all over again like children, and know nothing of what happened in ancient times, either among us or among yourselves.

In the first place you remember a single deluge only, but there were many previous ones; in the next place, you do not know that there formerly dwelt in your land the fairest and noblest race of men which ever lived, and that you and your whole city are descended from a small seed or remnant of them which survived. And this was unknown to you, because, for many generations, the survivors of that destruction died, leaving no written word. For there was a time, Solon, before the great deluge of all, when the city which now is Athens

was first in war and in every way the best governed of all cities, is said to have performed the noblest deeds and to have had the fairest constitution of any of which tradition tells, under the face of heaven.

She founded your city a thousand years before ours, receiving from the Earth and Hephaestus the seed of your race, and afterwards she founded ours, of which the constitution is recorded in our sacred registers to be eight thousand years old. As touching your citizens of nine thousand years ago,

I will briefly inform you of their laws and of their most famous action; the exact particulars of the whole we will hereafter go through at our

leisure in the sacred registers themselves.

If you compare these very laws with ours you will find that many of ours are the counterpart of yours as they were in the olden time.

Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour.

For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean,

she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars.

This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

additionally,

"About the time of these climatic changes in Africa, England separated from the continent, and Denmark arose from the sea, while the isthmus of Gibraltar, protecting the western basin of the Mediterranean, gave way as the result of an earthquake, quickly raising this inland lake to the level of the Atlantic Ocean.
Presently the Sicilian land bridge submerged, creating one sea of the Mediterranean and connecting it with the Atlantic Ocean. This cataclysm of nature flooded scores of human settlements and occasioned the greatest loss of life by flood in all the world's history.

I suggest another interpretation.

"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean,": the North Atlantic....

"for in those days the Atlantic was navigable;" free of ice....

"and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles;" One of the many straits, among other locations, called by that name....

"the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together," by length of coast-line, not area, as determined by sea-farers...

"and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean;" the Arctic Ocean, the original ocean known to the earliest of sea-farers, in warm conditions of the Climatic Optimum....

"for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance," the Baltic Sea...

"but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent." Asia, No. America and Greenland....Look at a globe from the top...

If, as the Bock Saga postulates, and Dr. Felice Vinci's HOMER IN THE BALTIC suggests independantly, that the greatest early civilization, complete with ALL THE GODS LATER WORSHIPPED IN THE MEDITERRANEAN, existed in the far north (Hyper-Borea) before (Paradise-time), during (Alt-land-is) and after the ice-ages, covered the globe with a world-wide religion (through earliest migrations), and was later lost in memory (by the time of ancient Greece), then it makes sense to carefully examine the possibility of Solon's and the Egyptian priests stories being a telling of this much earlier tale from a place other than the Mediterranean,
especially when it is being shown that there is a vast plethora of homophonic place-names throughout the far north, laid out in similar pattern to locations in and surrounding the Mediterranean, AND not to mention, the oldest labyrinths on the planet....

RE: Your posting of 6/18 on this thread about the parallels between Greek and Egyptian lineages...

" Ra= Tmu Apep (her spittle)"

As this was also the beginning of Atlantean literature connecting Greece to Egypt(Poseidon), it also was the end.

Meaning that by 1500 bC the Atlantean Empire no longer posed a threat to Attica and to Egypt by 3100 bC. The Egyptian Preist stated that they were liberated by the Greeks who seemed desolate also relating an older disaster and scarcety.

Unless Egypt was an Atlantean Empire between 3000 to 1500 bC.

So,around 6482bC, Atlantis, devastated by an asteroid sinks into oblivion and forces the great eastward migrations (Senegal/Mediterranean). Atlantean heritage extending no later than 1500bC where the ends of their times arose in Egypt through the story of Poseidon which arose also in King Belus. (we're missing the other 1500 years of Greek/Egypt/ Poseidon literature which that is to say Poseidon is older than 1500 bC of course.)

Lets look at their lineage (though the Gods are older,we link them according to the mortals.)

1600 bC........Zeus-----Io

1550 bC.......Epaphus 1------Memphis 2

1525 bC......Poseidon-------Libya

1500 bC......Belus 1------

1475 bC.....Agenor 1/Phoenix1/Aegyptus1/Danaus1

1450 bC.....Europa >Phoenicia to Crete.

Let's look at the Egytian Pharaoh list from 1600 bC-1400 bC.

Please bear in mind that King Menes founded Memphis. (3100 bC) which either contradicts Epaphus 1(also credited to Memphis) or they're the same and we need to push these dates further into antiquity,which I always suspect needs to be done like the Atlantis story.

The above Chronology is what I derive from Carlos Parada's Greek Mythology.

Which brings us to the second intermediate period,13th Dynasty 1786 bC and into the New kingdom at the 18th Dynasty upto 1320 bC.

So, retrospectively,

Zeus-Io>>>> Hyksos kings>> Salitis (Sheshi) in 1674-1567 bC.

Epaphus 1=Egyptian King Apepi 1 1600-1560 bC.

Poseidon-Libya>>>>Amenhotep I or Thutmose I 1546-1515bC.

Libya=Hatshepsut 1498-1483 bC.

Belus 1=Thutmose III 1504-1450 bC.

Agenor 1 > Amenhotep II 1450-1412 bC.

Phoenix1>Thutmose IV 1412-1402 bC.

Aegyptus1>Amenhotep III 1402-1364 bC.

Danaus1>Amenhotep IV 1350-1334 bC.

This would account for the parallels(ships,aquaducts,bronze,chariots,triremes) in the legend with the chronology of man for the Atlantis story sinking (6482bC) and surviving upto 1500 bC. Another reason I favor this date is because of the margin of error between Egyptian Sun Cycles and Greek Moon Cycles, even though the Egyptian priest said 9000 years before.

Ampheres (to rest,at both sides)
Italy,Sicily,Sardinia.

Evaemon (fortunate woman)
Algeria,Tunisia,Libya (Atalantes,Garamantes,Ammonium,Capsian)

Mneseus (from a Trojan)
Crete (Minos,Amnisus)

Autochthon (earthborn)
Peloponnesia,Attica,Cyclades.

Elassipus (horse riding)
Turkey (Phrygia,Ionia,Caria,Ephaesus)

Mestor (NNE middle)
Phoenicia,Syria (Byblos,Tyre)

Azaes (Heat)
Mauretania (Azas,Azamor)

Diaprepes (relating to God,highly distinguished)
Egypt,Nubia,Ethiopia.

The Founders

Poseidon (Sea God, Land God, EarthShaker) Cleito’s lover.

Evenor (primeval firstborn) Cleito’s Father

Leucippe (White Horse,Spartan surname) Cleito’s mother

Cleito (emperor’s favorite) Acropolis hill, Atlantis Royal City.

Based on Atlantean migration 10,840 bC (estimated 1,240 years of growth)
Countries Liberated after Great Battle and Atlantis sinking (2850-9600 bC)

ATLANTES-of Libyan people
ATLANTICUS-of Mount Atlas
ATLANTIAS-female
ATLANTIADES-male

The word Atlantis;
Re: Basque Translation by Riven

"The main evergreen forest is born a joyous miracle at dawn the abundant monument increases to unite the future arrival and remain loyal to the secret of creation." www.mts.net/~perasa

Here's some interesting comparisons with the Hykso of 1684-1567 bC..

Imagine if Solon learned of this story while he was visiting Egypt.

Lower Egypt was taken over seemingly with little fighting by the invading or perhaps just immigrant Hyksos.

Greek writers, beginning with Manetho, called them "Hyksos," which was mistranslated as "shepherd kings." Egyptians seem to have called these kings heqa-khasut, rulers of foreign lands, but they generally referred to invading foreigners as amu, asiatics or shamu, sand-dwellers.

The foundation of their capital Avaris, which used to be referred to as Tanis, and the beginning of their domination of the Delta took place in about 1720, according to the 400 year stela of Ramses II found there,

(Avaris>Atlas, Atlantis>Tanis)
(or compare Avaris to Sais)

Their rule over Lower Egypt lasted from the conquest of Memphis by Salitis (Sheshi) in 1674

Egyptian religion was respected; Egyptian was the language of government;

Their most important contributions to Egyptian culture were perhaps the introduction of Canaanite deities such as the Storm God whom they identified with Seth, (Poseidon>Earth Shaker)

Foreign culture became established at a few eastern Delta sites, and the Egyptians acquired new military techniques, such as the use of the horse-drawn chariot and the composite bow during this period

The Hyksos seem to have behaved in accordance with Egyptian manners, laws, and theories of monarchy since the times of Khyan (Iannas, last third of the 17th century).

They maintained tribute or trade relations with the Minoans and Babylonians and Egyptian artifacts bearing Khyan's name were found as far as Babylon, Knossos and Hatti.

An aggressive Egyptian family from Thebes waged a fierce set of wars against the Hyksos kings. Apepi I (Auserre, c.1600 to 1560) tried unsuccessfully to counter the threat posed by Tao II (Sekenenre) and Kamose (Apis Bull)

Amosis (Ahmose I), the great general, drove the Hyksos out of Egypt by 1550 (compares to the later Amasis as told in Critias)
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/history12-17.htm#amenemhetiii

To make it more interesting we have a written record of the quarrel between Apepi I and Sekenenre.
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/texts/apophis.htm

It once happened that the land of Egypt was in misery, for there was no Lord, L.P.H., (as) (sole) king. A day came to pass when King Sekenenre, L.P.H., was (still only) ruler, L.P.H., of the Southern City. Misery was in the town of the Asiatics, for Prince Apophis, L.P.H., was in Avaris, and the entire land paid tribute to him, delivering their taxes, (and) even the north bringing every (sort of) good produce of the Delta. Sallier Papyrus, ca. 1274 BCE L.P.H.: Life, prosperity, health Sekenenre: Tao II Southern City: Thebes Apophis: Apepi I Auserre, (ca.1600 to 1560)Asiatics: Here: Hyksos
the town of the Asiatics: Avaris

So King Apophis, L.P.H., adopted Seth for himself as lord, and he refused to serve any god that was in the entire land ex[cept] Seth. He built a temple of fine workmanship for the eternity next to the House of the [King Apo]phis, L.P.H., and he appeared [at break of] day in order to sacrifice ... daily to Seth, while the officials [of the palace], L.P.H., carried garlands, exactly as is practiced (in) the temple of Pre-Harakhte.
Now as for King A[pophis], L.P.H., it was his wish to s[end] an inflammatory message (to) King Sekenenre, [L.P.H., the] Prince of the Southern City. And a[fter] many days following this, King [Apophis, L.P.H.], then had [the high official]s of his [palace] summoned, [and he proposed to them that a messenger should be] sent [to the Prince of the Southern City with] a complaint...[concerning the] river, [but he was unable to compose it himself.
Thereupon his] scribes and wise men... and high officials [said: "O so]vereign, [our lord, demand that there be a withdrawal from the] canal of hippopotamuses [which lies at the east of the City because] they don't let [sleep come to us either in the daytime or at ni]ght, [for the noise of them is (in) our citizens' ear(s)."
And King Apophis, L.P.H., answered them saying: "I shall send to the Prince of the [Southern Ci]ty... command... [that we may assess the power of the god who is] with him as protector. He does not rely upon any god that is in the [entire land] except Amun-Re, King of the Gods."
Now after many days following this, King Apophis, L.P.H., then sent to the Prince of the Southern City (with) the complaint that his scribes and wise men had concocted for him.
And when the messenger of King [A]pophis, L.P.H., reached the Prince of the Southern City, he was then taken into the presence of the Prince of the Southern City. Then one (Sekenenre) said to the messenger of King Apophis, L.P.H.: " Why have you been sent to the Southern City? Wherefore have you come journeying here?"
The messenger then told him: "It is King Apophis, L.P.H., who has sent (me) to you in order to say, 'Let there be a w[ithdrawa]l from the canal of hippopotamuses which lies at the east of the City, because they don't let sleep come to me either in the daytime or at night,' for the noise of them is (in) his citizens' ear(s)."
Then the Prince of the Southern City became stupefied for so long a while that he became unable to render [a reply] to the messenger of King Apophis, L.P.H. Finally the Prince of the Southern City said to him: "Is it through this (remark) that your Lord, L.P.H., would investigate matters regarding [the canal of hippopotamuses which lies at t]he east of the Southern City?"
Then the messenger [said to him: "Effectuate the m]atters for which he sent me."
[Then the Prince of the Southern City caused] th[e messenger of King Apophis, L.P.H.], to be taken care of [with] good [thing]s: meat, cakes,....[The Prince of the Southern City said to him: "Go and tell] your [lord], 'As for whatever you will tell him, he will do it,' so you shall tell [him]" ...
[Then the messenger of King] Apophis, L.P.H., hastened to journey to where his lord, L.P.H., was.
So the Prince of the Southern City had his high officials summoned, as well as every ranking soldier of his, and he repeated to them every issue concerning which King Apophis, L.P.H., had sent to him. Then they were uniformly silent for a long while, without being able to answer him, be it good or bad. Then King Apophis, L.P.H., sent to ................

(The remainder of the story is lost)

Where have we heard that before?

Perhaps Solon did get to read a papyrus such as the one you cited. And its amazing that the ending breaks off in the same way as the text of Critias breaks off.

Adding to what I posted earlier:

"RE: Your posting of 6/18 on this thread about the parallels between Greek and Egyptian lineages...

" Ra= Tmu Apep (her spittle)"

In the Bock saga RA is one of the names of the All-father. (Adding this:RA a Symbol for the king and the moon, Ra is the sperm (rolling out))

And, an interesting point about Tmu Apep (her spittle)..."Her spittle" may by a euphemistic (modern) interpretation for the real wording, perhaps actually describing vaginal fluid! The All-father was the source of all children (sperm) and the All-mater the source of the corresponding fluid."

The superstitions of these times are well illustrated by the general belief in the efficacy of spittle as a healing agent, an idea which had its origin in Egypt and spread therefrom to Arabia and Mesopotamia. In the legendary battle of Horus with Set the young god lost his eye, but after Set was vanquished, this eye was restored by the wise god Thoth, who spat upon the wound and healed it. http://mercy.urantia.org/cgi-bin/webglimpse/mfs/usr/local/www/data/papers?link=http://mercy.urantia.org/papers/paper95.html&file=/usr/local/www/data/papers/paper95.html&line=58#mfs

*********
3. HEALING THE BLIND BEGGAR

The next morning the three went over to Martha's home at Bethany for breakfast and then went immediately into Jerusalem. This Sabbath morning, as Jesus and his two apostles drew near the temple, they encountered a well-known beggar, a man who had been born blind, sitting at his usual place. Although these mendicants did not solicit or receive alms on the Sabbath day, they were permitted thus to sit in their usual places. Jesus paused and looked upon the beggar. As he gazed upon this man who had been born blind, the idea came into his mind as to how he would once more bring his mission on earth to the notice of the Sanhedrin and the other Jewish leaders and religious teachers.

As the Master stood there before the blind man, engrossed in deep thought, Nathaniel, pondering the possible cause of this man's blindness, asked: "Master, who did sin, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?"

The rabbis taught that all such cases of blindness from birth were caused by sin. Not only were children conceived and born in sin, but a child could be born blind as a punishment for some specific sin committed by its father. They even taught that a child itself might sin before it was born into the world. They also taught that such defects could be caused by some sin or other indulgence of the mother while carrying the child.

There was, throughout all these regions, a lingering belief in reincarnation. The older Jewish teachers, together with Plato, Philo, and many of the Essenes, tolerated the theory that men may reap in one incarnation what they have sown in a previous existence; thus in one life they were believed to be expiating the sins committed in preceding lives. The Master found it difficult to make men believe that their souls had not had previous existences.

However, inconsistent as it seems, while such blindness was supposed to be the result of sin, the Jews held that it was meritorious in a high degree to give alms to these blind beggars. It was the custom of these blind men constantly to chant to the passers-by, "O tenderhearted, gain merit by assisting the blind."

Jesus entered into the discussion of this case with Nathaniel and Thomas, not only because he had already decided to use this blind man as the means of that day bringing his mission once more prominently to the notice of the Jewish leaders, but also because he always encouraged his apostles to seek for the true causes of all phenomena, natural or spiritual. He had often warned them to avoid the common tendency to assign spiritual causes to commonplace physical events.

Jesus decided to use this beggar in his plans for that day's work, but before doing anything for the blind man, Josiah by name, he proceeded to answer Nathaniel's question. Said the Master: "Neither did this man sin nor his parents that the works of God might be manifest in him. This blindness has come upon him in the natural course of events, but we must now do the works of Him who sent me, while it is still day, for the night will certainly come when it will be impossible to do the work we are about to perform. When I am in the world, I am the light of the world, but in only a little while I will not be with you."

When Jesus had spoken, he said to Nathaniel and Thomas: "Let us create the sight of this blind man on this Sabbath day that the scribes and Pharisees may have the full occasion which they seek for accusing the Son of Man." Then, stooping over, he spat on the ground and mixed the clay with the spittle, and speaking of all this so that the blind man could hear, he went up to Josiah and put the clay over his sightless eyes, saying: "Go, my son, wash away this clay in the pool of Siloam, and immediately you shall receive your sight." And when Josiah had so washed in the pool of Siloam, he returned to his friends and family, seeing.

Having always been a beggar, he knew nothing else; so, when the first excitement of the creation of his sight had passed, he returned to his usual place of alms-seeking. His friends, neighbors, and all who had known him aforetime, when they observed that he could see, all said, "Is this not Josiah the blind beggar?" Some said it was he, while others said, "No, it is one like him, but this man can see." But when they asked the man himself, he answered, "I am he."

When they began to inquire of him how he was able to see, he answered them: "A man called Jesus came by this way, and when talking about me with his friends, he made clay with spittle, anointed my eyes, and directed that I should go and wash in the pool of Siloam. I did what this man told me, and immediately I received my sight. And that is only a few hours ago. I do not yet know the meaning of much that I see." And when the people who began to gather about him asked where they could find the strange man who had healed him, Josiah could answer only that he did not know.

This is one of the strangest of all the Master's miracles. This man did not ask for healing. He did not know that the Jesus who had directed him to wash at Siloam, and who had promised him vision, was the prophet of Galilee who had preached in Jerusalem during the feast of tabernacles. This man had little faith that he would receive his sight, but the people of that day had great faith in the efficacy of the spittle of a great or holy man; and from Jesus' conversation with Nathaniel and Thomas, Josiah had concluded that his would-be benefactor was a great man, a learned teacher or a holy prophet; accordingly he did as Jesus directed him.

Jesus made use of the clay and the spittle and directed him to wash in the symbolic pool of Siloam for three reasons:

1. This was not a miracle response to the individual's faith. This was a wonder which Jesus chose to perform for a purpose of his own, but which he so arranged that this man might derive lasting benefit therefrom.
2. As the blind man had not asked for healing, and since the faith he had was slight, these material acts were suggested for the purpose of encouraging him. He did believe in the superstition of the efficacy of spittle, and he knew the pool of Siloam was a semisacred place. But he would hardly have gone there had it not been necessary to wash away the clay of his anointing. There was just enough ceremony about the transaction to induce him to act.

3. But Jesus had a third reason for resorting to these material means in connection with this unique transaction: This was a miracle wrought purely in obedience to his own choosing, and thereby he desired to teach his followers of that day and all subsequent ages to refrain from despising or neglecting material means in the healing of the sick. He wanted to teach them that they must cease to regard miracles as the only method of curing human diseases.

Jesus gave this man his sight by miraculous working, on this Sabbath morning and in Jerusalem near the temple, for the prime purpose of making this act an open challenge to the Sanhedrin and all the Jewish teachers and religious leaders. This was his way of proclaiming an open break with the Pharisees. He was always positive in everything he did. And it was for the purpose of bringing these matters before the Sanhedrin that Jesus brought his two apostles to this man early in the afternoon of this Sabbath day and deliberately provoked those discussions which compelled the Pharisees to take notice of the miracle. http://mercy.urantia.org/cgi-bin/webglimpse/mfs/usr/local/www/data/papers?link=http://mercy.urantia.org/papers/paper164.html&file=/usr/local/www/data/papers/paper164.html&line=65#m fs

4. JOSIAH BEFORE THE SANHEDRIN

By midafternoon the healing of Josiah had raised such a discussion around the temple that the leaders of the Sanhedrin decided to convene the council in its usual temple meeting place. And they did this in violation of a standing rule which forbade the meeting of the Sanhedrin on the Sabbath day. Jesus knew that Sabbath breaking would be one of the chief charges to be brought against him when the final test came, and he desired to be brought before the Sanhedrin for adjudication of the charge of having healed a blind man on the Sabbath day, when th