Here's some excellent info on Oceans and the Tore Seamount.

Recent studies (Monteiro, 1998) tend to corroborate the hypothesis firstly put forward by Laughton et al. (1975) that
the Tore Seamount corresponds to a meteorite crater.
http://www.cgul.ul.pt/projects/matespro.htm

The Tore-Josephine seamount chain is about 1000 km long,lying 300 km off the Portuguese coast. Although our U-Pb ages are not complete, the results document an age of about 95 Million years ago.
http://www.cosis.net/abstracts/RSTGV/00257/RSTGV-A-00257.pdf

nice seamount maps
http://www.ngo.grida.no/wwfneap/Projects/Reports/PDF_Maps/Portugal_reefs.pdf
http://www.ospar.org/eng/doc/pdfs/R5C1.pdf

Just to the west of Lisbon lies the Tore Seamoun; a conical feature resembling a submerged volcano with a very deep (5536m) central crater. North-west of the Tore Seamount lies a linear feature, the King's Trough.
http://www.ospar.org/eng/doc/pdfs/R5C2.pdf

"E" as a symbol signifies "Ek", meaning "I" and "Oak". The Oak was the common "yard-three" as it represent the human family, and the Three of Knowledge. As the sound of the letter "e" constitutes the basic vocal of the alphabeth, the oak represents the backbone structure of humanity, as the roots developed to a stem, that divided in branches (races), limbs and leaves (individuals) - before growing into and around Mother Earth.
Thus the "E" is quickly associated with the title of the old earth-mother "Emma", and even to "Embla", the "proto-sperm" (belonging to one certain monkey)...

E-Pan-Atai-lantos;
From the original Oak,
Pan, - the breeder
(of or from) At-land/Alt-land/Ata-lant-os.
How this can avoid linkage to At-lant-is is beyond me.

The Atlantis Island, like the Atlantis story covers a large span of time, how far back that goes we cannot say with certainty.

By 10,000 bC we can see that not much was left other than the Azores and the Amperes, Josephine,Gettysburg seamounts.

Drill samples from the Tore Seamount have been estimated between 95 and 105 million years ago.

Scientists seem uncertain if it was a meteoric impact or an underwater volcano there. It is at a mean depth of 5000 m which is far too deep as we know.

Scientists also will be in general agreement that the Atlantic Ocean or Continents first split around 200,000,000 years ago.

This does not conform to the 2cm per year rate they they also propose which if you were to calculate the distance today between Africa and NewYork you would be more comfortable around 75-100 million years ago. That's why I say that the Sub-continental island formed some 35 million years ago when the continents were at their halfway point.

So a time frame between 35-100 million years would be appropriate for the estimate of the Islands birth.

Around 5-6 million bC the Mediterranean was flooded indicating another historical event that wiped out civilizations there. The Bathymetric maps I provided in other posts will show you a much different mediterranean than we are used to such as the Tunisia, Sicily landbridge crossing.
Again, mass forms of extinction were wiped out in the old mediterranean plains now under water.

Around 60-80,000 bC we have some major events taking place such as the Great Tsunami that rinsed clean the West African Coast and Cape Verde suffered a huge landslide as well.

We also see that according to DNA samples from 2000aD, Scientists estimate that there was a mass destinction of humans at that time of 60-80,000 bC.

This is my time frame for the first catastrophe that destroyed part of Atlantis either by an Asteroid or other forms of destruction.

The last great Ice Age also damaged,saturated and moved other parts of land as well from her great weight and mass volume of water and glaciers.

As we know there have been several Ice Ages.

By 10,000 bC there was no sub-continental island but only the highlighted parts you see on my map where the city of Atlantis would have remained on the Josephine Bank ahead of the Abyssal Plain.

Around 6500 bC again we see major events happening on the earth and signs of a great flood that opened the Bosphorous Straites that evaporated all civilizations in her path.

This also coincides with archaeological studies in Egypt where sudden mass extinction also occured around that time.

Please keep in mind that what I am proposing here is ongoing research and not a summation or final conclusion that I would say was factual.

There is much more work ahead to prove or disprove the theories, which I would gladly accept with an open mind.

Palermo was founded by Phoenicians who sailed there from their native Carthage; the Greeks colonized the whole island, leaving some of the most beautiful and best-preserved temples they ever built at Agrigento, Selinunte and Segesta. Around those glorious sites they planted Sicily's first olive trees and grape vines.

Sicily has had a varied and colorful history. The first known inhabitants of the island were the Sicani,Siculi and Elymi. Phoenicians later settled on the west coast, notably at Panormus (now Palermo); Carthaginians founded Lilybaeum and Drepanum (now Trapani); and on the east and southeast coasts Greeks founded (8th–6th cent. B.C.) such cities as Syracuse, Catania, Zancle (now Messina), Gela, and Selinus and settled in older towns like Segesta. The Greek cities flourished and in turn founded such cities as Acragas (now Agrigento) and Himera. Their originally democratic governments were gradually replaced by tyrannies, particularly those of Phalaris at Acragas and of Gelon, Hiero I, and others at Syracuse.

In the 5th cent. B.C., Syracuse gained hegemony over the other cities. Phoenician influence was reinvigorated by Carthaginian expansion; although Hamilcar was repulsed at Himera in 480 B.C., later Carthaginian invaders gained control (by c.400 B.C.) of more than half of the island. Interlopers from mainland Greece seized the remainder, and Sicily became a battleground for rival empires. A century of antagonism between Greeks and Carthaginians was followed by strife between Romans and Carthaginians, which flared (264 B.C.) in the first of the Punic Wars. Rome was victorious by 241 B.C., and after the death (c.215) of Hiero II of Syracuse, virtually all of Sicily came under Rome.

The largest Mediterranean island, Sicily is triangular and formerly was sometimes called Trinacria [Gr.,=triangle]; capes Boeo (or Lilibeo), Passero, and ***** del Faro (or Peloro) are the vertices of the triangle. The island is almost entirely covered by hills and mountains (continuations of the Apennines); Mt. Etna (10,700 ft/3,261 m), in the east, is the highest point. The only wide valley is the fertile plain of Catania in the east, mostly located along the lower Simeto River. There are also narrow coastal strips in the south and west, and a small fertile plain (the Conca d'Oro) near Palermo in the northwest.

A human skull found near Agrigento was dated to over half a million years old years old, and, at the time of its discovery, was the oldest complete human skull ever found in Europe. Cave paintings found in the Addaura Cavern, beneath the slopes of Mount Pellegrino near Palermo, have been dated to 8000 BC, and suggest that the Neolithic culture that eventually emerged here was quite similar to those of central and western Europe. At around 5000 BC, the Siculi and Sicani cultures (that gave the island its name) were developing, and, at around 900 BC the Phoenicians began to colonise the area, founding Carthage in North Africa and Mozia, Solunto and Palermo in Sicily.

Greek colonisation of Sicily probably began around 750 BC, and they founded cities such as Syracuse, Catania, Zancle (now Messina), Gela, and Selinus. In time, Sicily and the southern part of the Italian peninsula would be completely colonised by Greeks, becoming known as Magna Graecia (Greater Greece) as it boasted more Greeks (and probably more Greek temples) than Greece itself. Sicilian Magna Graecia was extremely fertile - olives and vines were introduced, and there was a great deal of very profitable trading. Rivalries developed, and internal battles were frequent and bloody. The Greek settlements, initially democratic in nature, became tyrannical, and war-time alliances were formed. In BC 480, at the battle of Himera, an alliance of Agrigento, Syracuse and Gela defeated the Carthaginians, heralding the beginning of a 'Golden Age'.

Sicily is only 3 kilometers from Calabria at the narrows of the Strait of Messina, and just 160 kilometers from the African coast. Prehistoric fossils of large mammals discovered in caverns and during excavations around the island suggest that a land bridge existed in the remotest times.

and the grey mud flows formed by sporadic geysers that give Maccalube, near Aragona, its moonlike appearance.

Evidence indicates an organised human presence in Sicily durng the Mesolithic Age (circa 10,000 BC). Drawings found in the Addaura Cavern, beneath the slopes of Mount Pellegrino near Palermo, have been dated to about 8000 BC and imply that the neolithic culture which eventually emerged was quite similar to those present in central and western Europe. The Sicanians are identified as the earliest "native" Sicilian civilisation, possibly direct descendants of the earliest humans present here, followed by the Sicels and Elymians. We are uncertain whether the first people arrived in Sicily from the North or the South, but the Sicanian language probably was not Indo-European, while Elymian and Sicel were.

The megalithic temple of "Diana" at Cefalù is probably Sicanian in origin. By around 1100 BC, two populations arrived to inhabit certain parts of Sicily, in the process forcing the Sicanians away from certain territories. In the east, the Sicels (or Sikels), from whom the island takes its name, arrived from the Italian peninsula. Their language was probably Italic. The Elymians arrived, probably via Africa, from western Asia (possibly what is now Turkey) and occupied parts of northwestern Sicily (Egesta, Eryx, Entella). It appears that the Elymians, despite their proximity to what (by 700 BC) was Phoenician Sicily, assimilated easily with the conquering Greeks, followed by the Sicels. The Sicanians eventually amalgamated with the Greeks, but theirs was a slower assimilation with a completely alien culture.

Having founded Carthage in North Africa, the Phoenicians began to colonize the northwest of Sicily around 800 BC, founding Mozia, Solunto and Palermo. About the same time, the Greeks arrived in eastern Sicily, establishing Naxos (near Taormina) followed by Catania and Messina. Though the three Sicilian civilizations were eventually amalgamated with Hellenic culture, the Greeks often found themselves in conflict with the Carthaginians --partly because of Greco-Phoenician conflicts in the eastern Mediterranean.

the Sicels and Elymians were Mediterranean peoples arriving from regions such as the Italian peninsula or the eastern Mediterranean at some point after 1500 BC, while the Sicanians were probably descended from the earliest inhabitants of Sicily.

In the case of Sickle Cell Anemia, studies generally indicate that marker genes were introduced into the Sicilian population correlative to immigration from northern Africa, probably with Carthaginians and Moors, groups with remote Semitic origins but amalgamated to some extent with native coastal north Africans such as Berbers (probably Capsian descendants). This is a logical thesis.

Sickle cell disease is the most common genetic abnormality that afflicts people of African ancestry and it is the most frequent hemoglobinopathy in Italy." Their report goes on to say that "HbS is endemic in Sicily and this anomaly has been described in living Sicilians and in people of Sicilian ancestry. For thousands of years the Mediterranean basin has been the crossroad for trade, races, ideas, and art. The geographical position of Sicily at the center of the Mediterranean made it a natural stopover on these journeys. Phoenicians, Greeks, Carthaginians, Byzantines, Saracens, Normans, Spaniards, Arabs, Jews, and mercenaries from all over the world came to Sicily in large numbers to settle. In contrast to the past, there has been almost no immigration of this kind during the last few centuries. The genetic structure of the Sicilians is clearly not due to recent additions. The consensus is that the gene was introduced into Sicily and Southern Italy from Northern Africa through the trans-Saharan trade routes or, alternatively, by means of the Greek colonisation, although the introduction of the gene into Sicily during the Arab (Saracen) invasion cannot be excluded."

"As an approach to investigating the origin of sickle cell hemoglobin (hemoglobin S) in white persons of Sicilian ancestry, two groups of native Sicilians were tested for blood group evidence of African admixture. Among 100 unrelated Sicilians, the phenotypes cDe(Rho) and Fy(a-b-), and the antigens V(hrv) and Jsa, which are considered to be African genetic markers, were detected in 12 individuals. Among 64 individuals from 21 families with at least one known hemoglobin S carrier, African blood group markers were detected in 7 (11%). These findings indicate that hemoglobin S is only one of multiple African genes present in contemporary Sicilian populations. The occurrence of hemoglobin S in white persons of Sicilian ancestry is considered to be a manifestation of the continuing dissemination of the original African mutation." (Sandler, Schiliro, Russo, Musumeci, Rachmilewitz; "Blood Group Phenotypes and the Origin of Sickle Cell Hemoglobin in Sicilians")

Sicily's most impressive Greek temples (Selinunte, Segesta, Agrigento, Termini Imerese) were eventually built in the west, not the east

So far as we know, the most important Sicel towns were Agyrium, Centuripae, Henna and three towns called Hybla, all still inhabited today.

Sicanians- Sicily's oldest cultures.

Sicanians (or Sicans) of central and western Sicily were present at the earliest date, as the evidence suggests a more recent introduction of the Sicel ("Siculian") civilization in eastern Sicily and the Elymian one in the northwest. It is important to note that elements of all three

few of these "foreign" authors appear to be particularly reliable, and some (particularly Diodoros Siculus) are notoriously whimsical.

Humans were present in Sicily at the end of the Pleistocene Epoch, about 10,000 years ago. Cave drawings confirm a presence by 6000 BC, if not earlier, and there is no evidence to suggest anything but a continuous presence since that period. In general terms, early Sicily may be represented by the following periods:

8000 BC - early settlements and cave drawings in coastal areas such as Addaura (near Palermo).

3000 BC - use of copper tools in certain localities, probably reflecting non-Sicilian influences.

2500 BC - use of bronze throughout "Proto-Sicanian" Sicily; contact with foreign cultures.

1600 BC - presence of an identifiable, distinct "Sicanian" culture across Sicily.

1200 BC - arrival of Sicels in eastern coastal areas, encouraging Sican migration westward.

That said, the best (and most recent) scholarly position is that the Sicanians were indeed natives of Sicily, while the Sicels immigrated from mainland Italy (possibly from Liguria, Latium or even Alpine regions) and the Elymians from the Asian regions of the eastern Mediterranean, perhaps via northern Africa.

An Iron Age presence is indicated at Gela, Sant' Angelo Muxaro and other sites in the Agrigento area.

Indeed, one of the Greeks' earliest names for Sicily was "Sikania." In his Histories, Herodotus mentions the Sicanian city of Kamikos (near present-day Sant'Angelo Muxaro in the Agrigento area), and the legendary Sicanian king Kokalos figures in the myth of Daedalus and Icarus.

A brief compilation of evidence to encourage further scientific research and analysis of the issues by specialists to prove or disprove the O'Brien thesis of the recent existence of a large Mid-Atlantis Ridge island centred on the Azores.
http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/survey.html#map

I guess I wasn't the only one to attribute father to Atlantis.

ATLANTIS AND HER PEOPLES

http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/87atlantis.html

An unusual example of a word that sounds and means the same in a number of languages scattered throughout the Old and the New World is the word for ‘father’ – aht, tata, ata, with slight modifications. It is especially interesting in that this is not a natural sound comparable to the variants of ma, mama, mu, um, etc. for ‘mother’. One is led to wonder whether these recognizable variants of what is essentially the same word for ‘father’ represents an echo of one of the world’s first languages.

AMERINDIAN & POLYNESIAN EURO-ASIAN-AFRICAN CONTERPART

Quechua: taita Basque: aita
Dakotah: atey Hungarian: atya
Zuni: tatchu Tagalog: tatay
Seminole: tati Russian: aht-yets
Eskimo: atatak Ancient Egyption: aht
Nahuatl (Aztec) tatli Turkish & Turkic languages: ata
Central Mexican Indian
Dialects: tata Old Gothic (variant): ata
Fujian: tata Latin (colloquial): tata
Samoan: tata Romanian: tata
Slovak: tata
Maltese: tata
Sinhalses: tata
Yiddish: tatale
Cymric: tad

Although these comparisons are not conclusive proof of an Atlantean origin, it would appear that at some time in the dim and distant past mankind shared a single language, which became split into different dialects and ultimately altered over long periods of time following cataclysms when people found themselves living in isolated pockets away from the original collective of which they had once formed an integral part. Perhaps the biblical myth of the Tower of Babel is not so far-fetched after all. But then, surely, all myth must contain some element of truth.

Too bad I didn't see this sooner, it would have saved me a lot of research into which countries shared that word.

I don't know if you people have been noticing, but oddly enough, a lot of what Atalante and myself have been saying seems to slowly be falling into place.

Not only do we contemplate Ocean levels sinking, but also islands sinking and Ocean floors rising and what effect slight earth shifts can also have.

Phaistos is located 62 km south of Iraklion and, administratively, is part of the Municipality of Kamilari.

According to mythology, Phaistos was the seat of king Radamanthis, brother of king Minos.

During the Minoan times, Phaistos was a very important city-state. Its dominion, at its peak, stretched from Lithinon to Psychion and included the Paximadia islands. The city participated to the Trojan war and later became one of the most important cities-states of the Dorian period.
Phaistos continued to flourish during Archaic, Classical and Hellenistic times. It was destroyed by the Gortynians during the 3rd century B.C. In spite of that, Phaistos continued to exist during the Roman period.
Phaistos had two ports, Matala and Kommos.

Kamilari is built on the top of three hills, Evgora, Goulas and Alevrota, and it has 339 inhabitants. Its houses are built with stones and are two-stored.
The village is known for its climate that is temperate and there is sunshine nine months every year.

One of the seven wise men of the ancient world, Epimenidis, a great wise man and a soothsayer, lived in a small community outside Kamilari, called Metohi.

The old village is built on the top of the hill Evgora. From this site the inhabitants could have an overview of the enemy, to the Messara valley for the Turks and to the Libyan sea for the pirates.

http://www.interkriti.org/timbaki/kamilari.htm

(strange how the hills parallel with Evanor, Gadeiros and Leucippe)

Matala was the port of Phaistos during the Minoan period, following the destruction of Kommos.

Ruins of the ancient city are still visible on the sea bed as the ancient city was sunk in the sea.

There is also a cave known as "Brutospeliana" and legend has it that it was frequented by the Roman general Brutus.
Owing to its exceptional natural beauty, Matala became the meeting place of the "Flower Children"
http://www.interkriti.org/timbaki/matala.htm

One and a half kilometers after Pitsidia a branch of the road leads to Kommos, the ancient port of Phaistos and one of the most beautiful sandy beaches of Crete.
It is a magnificent sun-drenched stretch of sand, one of the largest in Crete, which extends from a clump of rocks riveted in the shallow waters in the south to the Kalamaki settlement in the North.

The high point of the settlement was during the Middle and Late Minoan period.

The most important finds in Kommos date from 1.500 B.C. and are kept at the archaeological Museum of Iraklion.
The antiquities of the old Minoan haven Kommos lie a few meters away from the beach. The sanctuary complex from historical times, with a temple, a prytaneum, a circular building and a court with four square altars is very important. Under the sanctuary were discovered large buildings with porticoes from the Post-Palace period, which were perhaps storerooms.

At a distance one can distinguish the barren isles of "Paximadia", the range of Sphakianes Madares, and the legendary Mt. Psiloritis.

A little of the shore, approx. 80 m. into the sea, there is a large black rock known as Volakas. Tradition says that it is the stone which cyclops Polyphemus hurled against Ulysses, who had earlier pierched the cyclops' only eye with a stake. In addition Homer says that the ships of Menelaos were wrecked on the black rock on their way back from Troy. Only six were saved - those with a black stem
http://www.interkriti.org/timbaki/kommos.htm

An ancient settlement dated, according to experts, back to the 4th
millennium BCE was discovered along the section of the
Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline near Beyuk Kesik village of Agstafa
region (Azerbaijan), it was announced by Institute of Ethnography of
the National Academy of Sciences. The findings showed that the
inhabitants of this area used to be in close relations with
Mesopotamian, Asian culture. The experts say this is the third
monument of this kind discovered so far in the South Caucasus.

Around 10,000 bC, Scientists are in general agreement that the Ocean levels were roughly 150 metres lower than today. We also have to consider the missing landmass, sinking island or rising Ocean crusts for a more definitive overall picture. Generally, the tips of the Ormonde, Gettysburg and Josephine seamounts are roughly 60m below the Ocean surface today. The mean depth to the Horseshoe Abyssal plain is about 5000 metres. 1000 metres below the Ocean level we find the turbulent underflow of the Mediterranean Straite.

The Ormonde seamount (east Gorringe bank) lies about 190 km sw of Portugal. It is roughly 200 km long x 80 km wide dated to 120 mya.
Ampere Seamount/seamount 35 05N 13 00W Josephine Seamount/seamount 36 40N 14 15W
5000mhigh....3,600km\sq
Gettysburg Seamount/seamount 36 32N 11 37W

Generally the Madeira / Torre seamounts are 1000 km long.

Here is a direct link to the page.
http://www.mts.net/~perasa/atlantis_was_located_beyond_the_.htm

By the way, maybe you would like to take a look at these if you haven't yet.

quote:

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MOZES was said to have been born in a reed Basket and the Ta Tenen Crown has ONE or even ocasionally ( as with King TUT, )3 reed Casquetts!
The difference is just One letter. "General-without-an-army:"Heracles had died and became a half-God(Patron-Saint/God, Of what? military administration?) To be born again as King-of-Thebes! So Mozes was a General too( the "Exodus"Story is a HOAX from Biblescribe: EZDRAS> )and he was ( RE-)Born with a Reed-Casquett on his head"floating"in a millitary vessel along the Blue-Nile! The bible scribe EZDRAS deliberately turned Evil into rowing gently down a stream , merryly! He was just wearing a Ta-Tenen Crown after ousting his brother Aahron/Adam from Atlantis/Paradise! by war-vessles.
_________________

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[u]VERY CLEVER MR RIVER[/u]! to have found the equasion "TA-TEN-EN and Kleito! as both meaning a slopey-Hill/Hill-Slope ! SO, if in greek Myth "Poseidon married Kleitho" it was a Metaphore or rather an "Allegory"on the colonization of a ( greek/Egyptian-Chieftan of the Hill or Arcropolis that was to be the "Island-CITY of "Atlantis"?! ALSO
"Epanateilanthos" as etymologic origin of "Atlantis"is very plausible! Wasn't it You who also mentioned that
Olympos stemms from the word Oulyntos or something meaning: "Horse-Mountain"on account of Poseidon beiing a (Sea-)Horse-God?! present geographical-Name of "Atlantis" has been whittled-down to:just, "Athe"
This word may contain "Thoth" meaning "Father-God"or just"HighMountain
( or Father-Mountain: "Abu-Hassan".)I must admid that by my "dislectic"handicap I cannot read egyptian or greek and just a bit of Latin, so by stumbling upon that wonderfull WebSite:"Perseus-Tufts"Etc.
You haved done a great service to amateur-Mythologists! The persian-robed figure of a Ta-Ten-En-Crowned (neo-Babylonian.later:Persian) gouvernor denotes the "Persian-Satrap-or-Vice-Roy"of Arabia-Felix, but IF one looks on the HistoryMap of E.g. "TIME-Co."the official occupation-Border separating Neo-Babylon, later: Persia from Egyp, ends somewhere in North-Arabia, about the southern-Border at AL-Hanya
of Present Iraq! There, at the Orontes river Pharaoh Rammeses-2 is supposed to have met at "Kadesh/Charchemish, with the "Hittitte" forces of"King"Muwattalis"( The "Nabopolassar"of dr Velikovsky!) It is my Contention that by the reign of Ramesses-2 the Neo-Babylonians(later:Persians )masqueraded as Hittites, and had firm posession of the Whole of Araby(=Felix) even as the Conventional Historical Maps leave this (permanent) occupation:"Blank"because "Hadramaut"was officially a vassal Kingdom not a Satrapy of ( neo-Babylon, later Persia! "my"Orontes"river is the present rivewr"ABANA"next to:"ADEN"and Aden is the Town that is called"Kadesh"in Rammesses-2 expedition into hittite territory! "Atlantis-Risen"Apanateilantos"has later sunken-deeply, not only by a Deluge-or-Two( actually mere shortlived:"Tsunamies", but it was also villified and demonized by a very jeallous, fratricidal Pharaoh called"Egyptos", who's Twin-Brother held sway over the socalled Amalekites; Kanakites, Zamzusites, Nephilim and Raphidim(=Atlantaeans)and was called by Egyptos , the"Asiatic". If THOT/Tehuthi was Father-of-Atlantis; his Daughter, became the"Goddess-
of Atlantis, named"HEQ-ATHE"/ Hecate . in my view, Athlantis consisted of a dual-State of TWO Decapoleis: In Arabia-Felix called:"ATHE"( hindu: Patala) and Jibuti( Egyptian "Butho"[Spotted by:WebSite member: "BOBBRE" in 2002.)or in Punician:"PUNT"(=*****land in Ethiopia/British-Somali-Land.!)Hindu:"Atala". The 11th-Dynasty Pharaoes were still regarded as:"Great-Kings in Atlantis"under the names of "Mentu-Hotep(only 3 of them.). Thank You for aiding in my research of Atlantis: TA-TEN-EN has my full support as the egyptian allegoric-rendering of "Atlantis"! ( I only wish to add this note, that in the Roman-Seamap"Periplus-Mare-Eritraeum", of 200 ad, this"Ta-Ten-en"is named:"Catramotita"as"Land-of-the 4 Cornes".( later corrupted into"Hadramaut". ( almost as if it reads:"Water-Mountain in mock"greek".)sincerely,

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Riven, about a week ago, we "talked" about what areas of the eastern Atlantic Ocean would be above sea level circa 10,000 b.c. Unfortunately, I still can't give you a definitive answer to that question. I did email a specialist about it at the time and he emailed me some very nonpromising maps and suggested this website link:
http://www.pol.ac.uk/psmsl/palaeoshoreline_webpage/HTML/HOME.htm

I'm not sure if you had the chance to check out my Alluvial Atlantis map on my website which gives a good indication of landmass from 10,000-100,000 bC.

Scroll Down; http://www.mts.net/~perasa/atlantis_was_located_beyond_the_.htm

True, they can only estimate the Sea Levels and we would also have to consider sinkage of the islands and Ocean crustal uprise to have a clearer picture.

Considering the norm estimate of 150m would still leave us with most land being 100 metres above ground or roughly 25 stories.

Such as the Ormonde, Gettysburg,Josephine,Ampheres seamounts which can be reached around 40m below current level.

This would still be adequate to describe the not so tall hills around the plain and the larger Mountains relating to Pico and Tiede.

The Ormonde in itself was 200km by 80km wide while the Ampheres is 3600sq km. The Tore/Madeira/Josephine ridge is 1000 km long.

The Josephine ridge seems to be favored for the Cleito hill.

We are also disillusioned by the fact of the land turning into silt and sinking like pancakes to account for lost height.

Another main factor to consider Atlantis near the Ampheres/Josephine is the underwater tow of the Straite 1000m underneath that slowly decayed the main foundations of Atlantis Royal City, the Canal and it's harbors.

As you can also see from that map there really wouldn't be any islands directly within the Straite other than mud shoals such as Spartel. The mouth of the Straite would have quickly eroded any nearby islands which were parts of the coastal land.

The real islands, Erithrayea, would have been the Azores Madeiras,Cape Verde and Canary Fortunate Isles of the Blest after 6500bC and the Ormonde,Gettysburg,Josephine,Ampheres and whatever was left of Atlantis around 10,000 bC.

Sometimes I wonder if Geryon's cattle were from Atlantis, although they attribute it to Spain.

This even becomes more peculiar when you consider Herodotus stating that Hercules was 17000 years old.

I really think that the biggest factor to our timelines is the difference from the old lunar cycles to sun cycles.

Good analysis. I have seen your map and thought that was very good as well.

I think when we are only getting part of the picture when we look at the Atlantic, though.

Here's some of the material I've found:

The Integrated Ocean Drilling Program has located enormous sheets of lava, 20 miles thick and four million square miles on the bottom of the Atlantic from undersea volcanoes. One sheet covers almost four million square miles on the bottom of the Atlantic, stretching from eastern Canada to Spain and Africa's Ivory Coast.

(It's interesting that the Russians also described the ruins found along the Ampere Seamounts as "steps and walls covered in lava.")

There are two huge holes in the western Atlantic that have been theorized to have caused the Carolina Bays disaster.

Also, in 1976, British scientists supposedly discovered a "sunken block of continent" from analysing dredge samples taken along the line of the Vema offset fault, a long east-west fracture zone lying between Africa and South America close to latitude 11øN.

(I'm still looking for a map to see how the Vema fault would fit in with any of our current Atlantis theories)

By Aeschylus

Written 458 B.C.E

Translated by E. D. A. Morshead

ORESTES

I, schooled in many miseries, have learnt.......

............I call Athena, lady of this land,
To come, my champion: so, in aftertime,
She shall not fail of love and service leal,
Not won by war, from me and from my land
And all the folk of Argos, vowed to her.
Now, be she far away in Libyan land
Where flows from Triton's lake her natal wave

..............Phlegraean she look forth, as warrior bold

Prometheus Bound

By Aeschylus

Written ca. 430 B.C.E
http://classics.mit.edu/Aeschylus/prometheus.html

PROMETHEUS

These things are sorrowful for me to speak,
Yet silence too is sorrow: all ways woe!
When first the Blessed Ones were filled with wrath
And there arose division in their midst,
These instant to hurl Cronos from his throne
That Zeus might be their king, and these, adverse,
Contending that he ne'er should rule the Gods,
Then I, wise counsel urging to persuade
The Titans, sons of Ouranos and Chthon,
Prevailed not: but, all indirect essays
Despising, they by the strong hand, effortless,
Yet by main force-supposed that they might seize
Supremacy. But me my mother Themis
And Gaia, one form called by many names,
Not once alone with voice oracular
Had prophesied how power should be disposed-
That not by strength neither by violence
The mighty should be mastered, but by guile.
Which things by me set forth at large, they scorned,
Nor graced my motion with the least regard.
Then, of all ways that offered, I judged best,
Taking my mother with me, to support,
No backward friend, the not less cordial Zeus.
And by my politic counsel Tartarus,
The bottomless and black, old Cronos hides
With his confederates. So helped by me,
The tyrant of the Gods, such service rendered
With ignominious chastisement requites.
But 'tis a common malady of power
Tyrannical never to trust a friend.
And now, what ye inquired, for what arraigned
He shamefully entreats me, ye shall know.
When first upon his high, paternal throne
He took his seat, forthwith to divers Gods
Divers good gifts he gave, and parcelled out
His empire, but of miserable men
Recked not at all; rather it was his wish
To wipe out man and rear another race:
And these designs none contravened but me.
I risked the bord attempt, and saved mankind
From stark destruction and the road to hell.
Therefore with this sore penance am I bowed,
Grievous to suffer, pitiful to see.
But, for compassion shown to man, such fate
I no wise earned; rather in wrath's despite
Am I to be reformed, and made a show
Of infamy to Zeus.

While the winged chariot of the OCEANIDES comes to ground their father OCEANUS enters, riding on a monster.

OCEANUS

Now have I traversed the unending plain
And unto thee, Prometheus, am I come,
Guiding this winghd monster with no rein,
Nor any bit, but mind's firm masterdom.
And know that for thy grief my heart is sore;
The bond of kind, methinks, constraineth me;
Nor is there any I would honour more,
Apart from kinship, than I reverence thee.
And thou shalt learn that I speak verity:
Mine is no smooth, false tongue; for do but show
How I can serve thee, grieved and outraged thus,
Thou ne'er shalt say thou hast, come weal, come woe,
A friend more faithful than Oceanus.

PROMETHEUS

I tender the
For this my thanks and ever-during praise.
Certes, no backward friend art thou; and yet
Trouble not thyself; for at the best thy labour
Will nothing serve me, if thou mean'st to serve.
Being thyself untrammelled stand fast.
For, not to mitigate my own mischance,
Would I see others hap on evil days.
The thought be far from me. I feel the weight
Of Atlas' woes, my brother in the west
Shouldering the pillar that props heaven and earth,
No wieldy fardel for his arms to fold.
The giant dweller in Cilician dens
I saw and pitied-a terrific shape,
A hundred-headed monster-when he fell,
Resistless Typhon who withstood the Gods,
With fearsome hiss of beak-mouth horrible,
While lightning from his eyes with Gorgon-glare
Flashed for the ravage of the realm of Zeus.
But on him came the bolt that never sleeps,
Down-crashing thunder, with emitted fire,
Which shattered him and all his towering hopes
Dashed into ruin; smitten through the breast,
His strength as smoking cinder, lightning-charred.
And now a heap, a helpless, sprawling hulk,
He lies stretched out beside the narrow seas,
Pounded and crushed deep under Etna's roots.
But on the mountain-top Hephaestus sits
Forging the molten iron, whence shall burst
Rivers of fire, with red and ravening jaws
To waste fair-fruited, smooth, Sicilian fields.
Such bilious up-boiling of his ire
Shall Typho vent, with slingstone-showers red-hot,
And unapproachable surge of fiery spray,
Although combusted by the bolt of Zeus.
But thou art not unlearned, nor needest me
To be thy teacher: save thyself the way
Thou knowest and I will fortify my heart
Until the wrathfulness of Zeus abate.

OCEANUS

Thou criest "On" to one in haste to go.
For look, my dragon with impatient wings
Flaps at the broad, smooth road of level air.
Fain would he kneel him down in his own stall

CHORUS

And for thy passing an exceeding bitter groan;
For thee and for thy brother Gods whose honour was thine own:
These things all they who dwell in Asia's holy seat,
Time's minions, mourn and with their groans thy groans repeat.
Yea, and they mourn who dwell beside the Colchian shore,
The hero maids unwedded that delight in war,
And Scythia's swarming myriads who their dwelling make
Around the borders of the world, the salt Maeotian lake.
Mourns Ares' stock, that flowers in desert Araby,
And the strong city mourns, the hill-fort planted high,
Near neighbour to huge Caucasus, dread mountaineers
That love the clash of arms, the counter of sharp spears.
Beforetime of all Gods one have I seen in pain,
One only Titan bound with adamantine chain,
Atlas in strength supreme, who groaning stoops, downbent
Under the burthen of the earth and heaven's broad firmament.
Bellows the main of waters, surge with foam-seethed surge
Clashing tumultuous; for thee the deep seas chant their dirge;
And Hell's dark under-world a hollow moaning fills;
Thee mourn the sacred streams with all their fountain-rills.

PROMETHEUS

With things ye know; but listen to the tale
Of human sufferings, and how at first
Senseless as beasts I gave men sense, possessed them
Of mind. I speak not in contempt of man;
I do but tell of good gifts I conferred.
In the beginning, seeing they saw amiss,
And hearing heard not, but, like phantoms huddled
In dreams, the perplexed story of their days
Confounded; knowing neither timber-work
Nor brick-built dwellings basking in the light,
But dug for themselves holes, wherein like ants,
That hardly may contend against a breath,
They dwelt in burrows of their unsunned caves.
Neither of winter's cold had they fixed sign,
Nor of the spring when she comes decked with flowers,
Nor yet of summer's heat with melting fruits
Sure token: but utterly without knowledge
Moiled, until I the rising of the stars
Showed them, and when they set, though much obscure.
Moreover, number, the most excellent
Of all inventions, I for them devised,
And gave them writing that retaineth all,
The serviceable mother of the Muse.
I was the first that yoked unmanaged beasts,
To serve as slaves with collar and with pack,
And take upon themselves, to man's relief,
The heaviest labour of his hands: and
Tamed to the rein and drove in wheeled cars
The horse, of sumptuous pride the ornament.
And those sea-wanderers with the wings of cloth,
The shipman's waggons, none but I contrived.
These manifold inventions for mankind
I perfected, who, out upon't, have none-
No, not one shift-to rid me of this shame.

They dwindled quite away; until I taught them
To compound draughts and mixtures sanative,
Wherewith they now are armed against disease.
I staked the winding path of divination
And was the first distinguisher of dreams,
The true from false; and voices ominous
Of meaning dark interpreted; and tokens

Then, things beneath the earth, aids hid from man,
Brass, iron, silver, gold, who dares to say
He was before me in discovering?

Chorus

At thine espousals, and of thy blood-kin,
A bride thou chosest, wooing her to thee
With all good gifts that may a Goddess win,
Thy father's child, divine Hesione.

Enter IO, crazed and horned.

IO

What land is this? What people here abide?
And who is he,
The prisoner of this windswept mountain-side?
Speak, speak to me;

PROMETHEUS

How should I hear thee not? Thou art the child
Of Inachus, dazed with the dizzying fly.
The heart of Zeus thou hast made hot with love
And Hera's curse even as a runner stripped
Pursues thee ever on thine endless round.

IO

Of gadfly pricked, with high-flung skip, stark-mad,
I bounded, galloping headlong on, until
I came to the sweet and of the stream
Kerchneian, hard by Lerna's spring. And thither
Argus, the giant herdsman, fierce and fell
As a strong wine unmixed, with hateful cast
Of all his cunning eyes upon the trail,
Gave chase and tracked me down. And there he perished

PROMETHEUS

The damsel must endure from Hera's hate.
And thou, O seed of Inachaean loins,
Weigh well my words, that thou may'st understand
Thy journey's end. First towards the rising sun
Turn hence, and traverse fields that ne'er felt plough
Until thou reach the country of the Scyths,
A race of wanderers handling the long-bow
That shoots afar, and having their habitations
Under the open sky in wattled cotes
That move on wheels. Go not thou nigh to them,
But ever within sound of the breaking waver,
Pass through their land. And on the left of the
The Chalybes, workers in iron, dwell.
Beware of them, for they are savages,
Who suffer not a stranger to come near.
And thou shalt reach the river Hybristes,
Well named. Cross not, for it is ill to cross,
Until thou come even unto Caucasus,
Highest of mountains, where the foaming river
Blows all its volume from the summit ridge
That o'ertops all. And that star-neighboured ridge
Thy feet must climb; and, following the road
That runneth south, thou presently shall reach
The Amazonian hosts that loathe the male,
And shall one day remove from thence and found
Themiscyra hard by Thermodon's stream,
Where on the craggy Salmadessian coast
Waves gnash their teeth, the maw of mariners
And step-mother of ships. And they shall lead the
Upon thy way, and with a right good will.
Then shalt thou come to the Cimmerian Isthmus,
Even at the pass and portals of the sea,
And leaving it behind thee, stout of heart,
Cross o'er the channel of Maeotis' lake.
For ever famous among men shall be
The story of thy crossing, and the strait
Be called by a new name, the Bosporus,
In memory of thee. Then having left
Europa's soil behind thee thou shalt come
To the main land of Asia.
By violent and sudden doom surprised.

IO

And shall
Zeus fall? His power be taken from him?
No matter when if true-

PROMETHEUS
'Twould make thee happy
Methinks, if thou could'st see calamity
Whelm him.

IO
But how? Oh, speak,
If the declaring draw no evil down I

PROMETHEUS
A marriage he shall make shall vex him sore.

PROMETHEUS
She will bear to him a child,
And he shall be in might more excellent
Than his progenitor.

IO
And he will find
No way to parry this strong stroke of fate?

PROMETHEUS
None save my own self-when these bonds are loosed.

IO
And who shall loose them if Zeus wills not?
Of thine own seed.
How say'st thou? Shall a child
Of mine release thee?

PROMETHEUS
Son of thine, but son
The thirteenth generation shall beget.

PROMETHEUS
I will resist
No further, but to your importunacy
All things which ye-desire to learn reveal.
And, Io, first to thee I will declare
Thy far-driven wanderings; write thou my words
In the retentive tablets of thy heart.
When thou hast crossed the flood that flows between
And is the boundary of two continents,
Turn to the sun's uprising, where he treads
Printing with fiery steps the eastern sky,
And from the roaring of the Pontic surge
Do thou pass on, until before thee lies
The Gorgonean plain, Kisthene called,
Where dwell the gray-haired three, the Phorcides,
Old, mumbling maids, swan-shaped, having one eye
Betwixt the three, and but a single tooth.
On them the sun with his brightbeams ne'er glanceth
Nor moon that lamps the night. Not far from them
The sisters three, the Gorgons, have their haunt;
Winged forms, with snaky locks, hateful to man,
Whom nothing mortal looking on can live.
Thus much that thou may'st have a care of these.
Now of another portent thou shalt hear.
Beware the dogs of Zeus that ne'er give tongue,
The sharp-beaked gryphons, and the one-eyed horde
Of Arimaspians, riding upon horses,
Who dwell around the river rolling gold,
The ferry and the frith of Pluto's port.
Go not thou nigh them. After thou shalt come
To a far land, a dark-skinned race, that dwell
Beside the fountains of the sun, whence flows
The river Ethiops: follow its banks
Until thou comest to the steep-down slope
Where from the Bibline mountains Nilus old
Pours the sweet waters of his holy stream.
And thou, the river guiding thee, shalt come
To the three-sided, wedge-shaped land of Nile,
Where for thyself, Io, and for thy children
Long sojourn is appointed. If in aught
My story seems to stammer and to er
From indirectness, ask and ask again
Till all be manifest. I do not lack
For leisure, having more than well contents me

That had detained us else with long discourse
And touch at once her journey's thus far goal.
When thou wast come to the Molossian plain
That lies about the high top of Dodona,
Where is an oracle and shrine of Zeus
Thesprotian, and-portent past belief-
The talking oaks, the same from whom the word
Flashed clear and nothing questionably hailed the
The destined spouse-ah! do I touch old wounds?-
Of Zeus, honoured above thy sex; stung thence
In torment, where the road runs by the sea,
Thou cam'st to the broad gulf of Rhea, whence
Beat back by a strong wind, thou didst retrace
Most painfully thy course; and it shall be
That times to come in memory of thy passage
Shall call that inlet the Ionian Sea.
Thus much for thee in witness that my mind
Beholdeth more than that which leaps to light.
Now for the things to come; what I shall say
Concerns ye both alike. Return we then
And follow our old track. There is a city
Yclept Canobus, built at the land's end,
Even at the mouth and mounded silt of Nile,
And there shall Zeus restore to thee thy mind
With touch benign and laying on of hands.
And from that touch thou shalt conceive and bear
Swarth Epaphus, touch-born; and he shall reap
As much of earth as Nilus watereth
With his broad-flowing river. In descent
The fifth from him there shall come back to Argos,
Thine ancient home, but driven by hard hap,
Two score and ten maids, daughters of one house,
Fleeing pollution of unlawful marriage
With their next kin, who winged with wild desire,
As hawks that follow hard on cushat-doves,
Shall harry prey which they should not pursue
And hunt forbidden brides. But God shall be
Exceeding jealous for their chastity;
And old Pelasgia, for the mortal thrust
Of woman's hands and midnight murder done
Upon their new-wed lords, shall shelter them;
For every wife shall strike her husband down
Dipping a two-edged broadsword in his blood.
Oh, that mine enemies might wed such wivesl
But of the fifty, one alone desire
Shall tame, as with the stroke of charming-wand,
So that she shall not lift her hands to slay
The partner of her bed; yea, melting love
Shall blunt her sharp-set will, and she shall choose
Rather to be called weak and womanly
Than the dark stain of blood; and she shall be
Mother of kings in Argos. 'Tis a tale
Were't told in full, would occupy us long.
For, of her sowing, there shall spring to fame
The lion's whelp, the archer bold, whose bow
Shall set me free. This is the oracle
Themis, my ancient Mother, Titan-born,
Disclosed to me; but how and in what wise
Were long to tell, nor would it profit thee.

Enter HERMES.
Hermes. You, the sophistical rogue, the heart of gall,
The renegade of heaven, to short-lived men
Purveyor of prerogatives and tities,
Fire-thief! Dost hear me? I've a word for thee.
Thou'rt to declare-this is the Father's pleasure
These marriage-feasts of thine, whereof thy tongue
Rattles a-pace, and by the which his greatness
Shall take a fall. And look you rede no riddles,
But tell the truth, in each particular
Exact. I am not to sweat for thee, Prometheus,
Upon a double journey. And thou seest
Zeus by thy dark defiance is not moved.

PROMETHEUS
A very solemn piece of insolence
Spoken like an underling of the Gods! Ye are young!
Ye are young! New come to power And ye suppose
Your towered citadel Calamity
Can never enter! Ah, and have not
Seen from those pinnacles a two-fold fall
Of tyrants? And the third, who his brief "now"
Of lordship arrogates, I shall see yet

PROMETHEUS

But ageing Time teacheth all knowledge

PROMETHEUS
The time is past for words; earth quakes
Sensibly: hark! pent thunder rakes
The depths, with bellowing din
Of echoes rolling ever nigher:
Lightnings shake out their locks of fire;
The dust cones dance and spin;
The skipping winds, as if possessed
By faction-north, south, east and west,
Puff at each other; sea
And sky are shook together: Lo
The swing and fury of the blow
Wherewith Zeus smiteth me
Sweepeth apace, and, visibly,
To strike my heart with fear. See, see,
Earth, awful Mother! Air,
That shedd'st from the revolving sky
On all the light they see thee by,
What bitter wrongs I bear!

Is that not the Kingdom of ATA(Atlantis) past the Pillars of Hercules!!!!!!

Click on VIEW ALL and look at Folder 15r (recto)=reverse

You return to commit another one of your habitual errors, caused by the haste, to act with as much ligeresa without before confirming the data of correct way, but in addition, this demonstrates that you do not have knowledge some on paleography Latin medieval, because you confuse the completion of the word Temper-ata, that is, ATA as if outside an abbreviation of ATLANTIS. The Temperata word, is divided by a letter that is ligograma that unites to the P and the R.

Dear Riven, you you have never seen the circular maps that they divide the world in three regions ASIA, EUROPE and LIBYA, equal that?

I cannot be thought that you have committed a so serious error!!.

He was habitual in the Medieval Age, mainly after Isidorus Sevillensis, to make circular maps like that, where the Columns of Hercules marked the limit of the world towards the West, that always is down, as it can be read in the map, underneath the same Columns of Hercules.

The left, always one imagines the Temperata zone (warmed up) of Europe, and the right, the Temperata zone of Africa, and above the zone of ASIA, to the east.

You have committed a serious error of interpretation to have acted with much haste.

I prefer to think that it has been to act with lightness and superficiality to think another thing worse.

Greetings of Elys.

------------------
Eliana García
Cádiz, Spain

The glacials of course are zones covered in ice. Temp also means "through" according to quick latin.

What do you suppose that castle is?

Tartessos?

But you do not look for things where it does not have. I repeat to you, that that is a typical medieval map in form of scheme of three parts or three continent that conformed the known world, Europe to the left, Africa to the right and Asia arrives to the Orient. The world surrounded by the circular Ocean like the old Greek conception.

In this type of map, the objective is to indicate to neither cities nor other details, are only indicated a few very significant to be able to locate to the reader. In this case one indicates the Columns of Hercules in the western limit, that is, in Gibraltar and the Castle, because it can simply be the symbol of all Europe like civilized and powerful region more.

Greetings of Elys.

------------------
Eliana García
Cádiz, Spain

Please refrain from inane comments such as that. I do not hate Georgeos and respect his work. It was only the disappointment from his secretary that created the attitude.

Georgeos is a good Atlantis researcher and is only looking after his own interests which may differ from ours.

We have to debate as good researchers and not as irate children such as you defend the even more improbable Sarmast theory.

I want to take advantage of the opportunity to clarify that if in my messages there is something can bother you, that you know, that I do not do it with bad intention, but that sometimes as I do not know sufficient the language English perhaps because use expressions that stops a Spanish as I they are not offensive, but for you can be it.

Then, I offer my in advance more sincere excuses by any word or expression that in English can bother you.

One proof of which nobody in Spain - not even Georgeos Diaz- has bad feeling with you, you are that in our new forum of Scientific Atlantology International Society (SAIS) we have opened a section or Board for you, so that you publish all your theories of free way, and can share next to tdoso the investigators of Atlantis of the world, that also counts on its own Board.

Respectful greetings of Elys.

------------------
Eliana García
Cádiz, Spain

Those are Georgeos' secretaries who adore him and fight for him and his beliefs with fury. We still await a word to be spoken from Georgeos.

Those are not Georgeos' words that you arbitrate with but Maria's.

And we do know the fury of a woman scorned.

We also have to consider that they do not know english very well, so a simple word like incompetent, can seem like a harmful attack and also whay they try to tell us can seem inappropriate.

It matters not though. What does matter is not to continue debasing and lowering yourself to the level of the accuser, rather agree to disagree and continue the important research.

It is no different than all the myths we read where we have to find the truth just as someone can lie to you and yet you can still uncover the hidden meaning.

Of course, we have to maintain our sense of pride, but not with childish implications of abhorment and ridicule.

We also have to respect the amount of work involved in the search for Atlantis and can use any help we can get, even from Spain.

Remember it's knowing the tricks of the trade that make you a professional, and only Atlantis researchers know the tricks of the trade and not Professors,Scientists or Latin scriptologists etc.

Rather, true Atlantis researchers, which is what we all are.

A team that plays together wins together.

We don't have to join other teams, just look for some winning tactics in their defence.

As you will see, you may also get the same feedback from other Atlantis forums, however great they may attack, we learn from their fears because they leave themselves wide open.

Better to be wise with your mouth shut than a fool with it open.

live,laugh,love,learn,forgive.

I have always respected Georgeos's work. It is quite evident that he has done a tremendous amount of research and is quite knowledgeable in many areas and quite proficient with languages. The work he is doing is tedious and quite time consuming and most likely pays little to nothing unless he can sell a lot of books or pull off a few documentaries. Even though I believe he is off base with his location for Atlantis it is most likely probable that the entire Mediterranean was in some way a part of this developing empire of the God's after Adam & Eve vacated the first garden for the Tigris/Euphrates location. Part human part superhuman was this population without a doubt.

My ridicule or provacation has more to do with the offensive behavior of maria and the other georgeos groupees than anything to do with georgeos and a little bit of humor from this end makes the whole horrible fiasco a bit more palatable. At least for me.

Examples of Azilian pebbles. These painted pebbles from the prehistoric Magdalenian age have been thought to be a form of writing or perhaps the ancestor of writing. Recent investigations, however, imply that a form of astronomical notation, itself a form of writing, existed in Crô-Magnon times, as early as 30,000 years ago.