Morocco was long known in the Muslim world as maghreb el Aksa, the land of the furthest west. It was literally considered to be on the edge of the world, a place notorious its powerful magicians and demon-like jinn. It is a country with an intense almost insular, awareness of itself. In a sense it is an island, encircled by the seas of the Atlantic, the Mediterranean and the sand-sea of the Sahara. The land is further defended by four great mountain ranges ( The Rif, Middle Atlas, High Atlas and Anti Atlas ) that run like vast ramparts across its breadth, breaking up the area's geographical unity and providing a secure mountainous refuge for the indigenous people, the Berbers, against both invaders and any central power.

When we have an area called Atlantis on every world map today, it doesn’t necessarily mean that this is the location of Plato’s Atlantis, but when this area is located exactly in the area of Plato's fabolous island, and also correspond to his descriptions almost perfectly, you begin to wonder if this perhaps was the area Plato spoke of. The area of Atlas ( Atlantis ) and the area of the Atlanteans were regions known hundreds of years before the time of Plato.

Regards, Jonas Bergman

quote from: http://www.dafina.net/meaningofthenames.htm

"Touat, Morocco. in berber
...
Touati : ethnic group of Touat, group of Oasis at the southern border between Algeria and Morocco"

Here is a link which discusses the Touat oasis group. http://www.wetlands.org/RDB/Ramsar_Dir/Algeria/DZ013D02.htm
That region today has 800 miles of man-made underground water channels, and supports a human population around 8000. The water table of Touat was higher in the past, and would have supported more people. There are fish living in the underground canals which have evolved to be blind; scientists speculate that the fish may have been living in darkness for 10,000 years to evolve this way.

Quote Brig Why not? Every place else on earth and even Mars has been pinpointed as Atlantis. I say it was in West Virginia, in the USA. I think thats the only place so far not mentioned.Now, dang it, lets see some physical proof.

Morocco is the only country in the area of Plato's Atlantis, which correspond to all his descriptions. ( because Atlantis was according to Plato located near the Pillars of Heracles and the region of Gades )
The area is still named Atlantis.
A coincidence?

Those who pinpoint areas such as Bolivia, Indonesia, Antarctica or Mars haven't followed Plato's Timaeus and Critias at all.

Regards, Jonas Bergman

Quote from ancientroute.com
http://www.ancientroute.com/resource/animals/Elephant.htm
About the same time, the Carthaginians ( after 900 B.C ) were also training elephants. These animals came from Morocco where they were so numerous that the tusks were used as fencing.

The Greek historian Diodorus ( ca 100 B.C ), placed Atlanteans along the western coast of Africa. ( Morocco, Western Sahara )

The area of the Atlas mountains ( Atlantis ) had been known by that name many centuries before the time of Plato.

Herodotus Atlantean Map

In the center of the mountain circle of Morocco there is a small mountain or mountain range called Pays Zaer Zaiane.

Pays Zaer Zaiane - Central Morocco

If we believe the capital city was a Phoenician/Tyrian colony ( as I demonstrated here ), then the following quote is interesting.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quotes from Strabo: Geography XVII ( ca 22 A.D )

He is talking about Africa and the coast of Morocco: To the south, near Lixus and Coteis, is a bay called Emporicus [situated between modern Salee and Larache ], having upon it Phoenician merchantile settlements. The whole coast continues with this bay abounds with them.

It is said that the Sinus Emporicus ( or merchants bay ) was a cave which admits the sea at high tide to the distance even of seven stadia, and in front of this bay was low and level tract with an altar of Hercules ( Melqart ) upon it, which, they say, is not covered by the tide. This, I ofcourse, consider to be one of the fictitious stories. Like this is the tale that on other bays in the succeding coast there were ancient settlements of Tyrians, now abandoned, which consisted of not less than three hundred cities, and were destroyed by the Pharusii and the Nigritae. These people, they say, are distant thirty days journey from Lixus.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ancient and abandoned settlements of Tyrians. Interesting.
The succeding coast is the coast between Rabat and El-Jadida ( or Rabat and further south ), the area of the small mountain range ( Pays Zaer Zaiane ), an area with large rivers and great fertile plains located in the middle of the mountain circle of Morocco.

The succeding coast

Quote from Critias translated by Benjamin JowettThe stone which was used in the work they quarried from underneath the centre island, and from underneath the zones, on the outer as well as the inner side. One kind was white, another black, and a third red,

Morocco is known for its reddish-orange stones. White and black stones are also used. The capital city of Atlantis was in an area were you could find all these different stones.

Red stones

Regards, Jonas Bergman

Certainly was Morocco part of the empire of the 10 kings of Atlantis! As Plato wrote, “they ruled over Libya as far as Egypt”, and for the old Greeks “Libya” was meaning North Africa.
Your new Website is very interesting, especially with the many maps you have shown, and I think there are many things to discuss later.

But the “world maps of Herodotus” you have mentioned and shown in a picture, were not made from Herodotus himself, two centuries before Plato ! Herodotus was a historian, but not a map maker, and the map shown in your site was made much later, maybe in our times , after Heodotus´ descriptions in his “History”. The author placed the names into the map into such places he imagined in his mind after reading the books of Herodotus, but especially in the case of the “Atlanteans” he was not in conformity with Herodotus texts.
Firstly, Herodotus never wrote “Atlanteans”, but “Atlantes”. And these Atlantes lived near the Atlas mountains, but still inside the pillars of Heracles (see Herodotus book 4, 184-185): Herodotus describes the tribes along the North African coast from Egypt to the west, and behind the “Atarantes” he finds the “Atlantes”:

“Near the salt is a mountain called Atlas, very taper and round; so lofty, that the top (it is said) cannot be seen, the clouds never quitting it either summer nor winter. The natives called this mountain “the Pillar of Heaven”, and they themselves take their name from it, being called Atlantes. They are reported not to eat any living thing, and never to have any dreams.
As far as the Atlantes the names of the nations inhabiting the sandy ridge are known to me; but beyond them my knowledge fails. The ridge itself extends as far as the Pillars of Hercules, and even further than these. . .
Beyond the ridge, southwards, in the direction of the interior of the country is a desert, with no springs, no beasts, no rain, no wood. “

It is clear that Herodotus describes the nations inside the Pillars, living on a sandy ridge, south of which is only the desert. This description can only mean the Mediterranean coast of Morocco, not the coast of Morocco along the Atlantic Ocean, where the unknown map maker has placed his “Atlanteans”. Herodotus knows only that the ridge extends till the Pillars, eventually even further, but he has no certain proof about this.
It is possible that Herodotus´ “Atlantes” lived also along the western side of the Atlas mountains, but we cannot take Herodotus as a source for this claim.

It is clear that Herodotus describes the nations inside the Pillars, living on a sandy ridge, south of which is only the desert. This description can only mean the Mediterranean coast of Morocco, not the coast of Morocco along the Atlantic Ocean, where the unknown map maker has placed his “Atlanteans”.

Dear Ulf,

That's true. Herodotus didn't mention Atlanteans, but the area were still called Atlas(Atlantis), and that's probably why he called the tribe Atlantes.

Herodotus World Map <- A more correct version of the world according to Herodotus

I read Herodotus account regarding the tribes from Egypt to the Pillars of Heracles, before I saw the maps.
Then I made my own map using Herodotus descriptions and a modern map of northen Africa. When I later saw the already existing maps it turned out to look almost exactly the same as my own.
The unknown author probably did the same.

The author may also have read "Diodorus Library of History" ( ca 100 B.C ), when he made the maps. Diodorus placed the Atlanteans on the edge of the Atlantic ocean, in the outermost part of Libya.

QUOTE FROM LIBRARY OF HISTORY, BOOK III, 56. 1-4
Now the Atlantians, dwelling as they do in the regions on the edge of the ocean and inhabiting a fertile territory, are reputed far to excel their neighbours in reverence towards the gods and the humanity they showed in their dealings with strangers, and the gods, they say, were born among them.

Quote Ulf
It is possible that Herodotus´ “Atlantes” lived also along the western side of the Atlas mountains, but we cannot take Herodotus as a source for this claim.

That is true. We cannot take Herodotus as a source for this claim, but the important thing is that the Atlantes were called Atlantes because it was near the mountains of Atlas. An area known by that name many centuries before Herodotus.

The same goes for the Atlanteans of Diodorus. They were probably called Atlanteans because they inhabited a region near the mountains of Atlas and the ocean of Atlas. ( the Atlantic )

Quote from Hesiod The Theogony ( ca 800 B.C )
And Atlas through hard
constraint upholds the wide heaven with unwearying head and arms,
standing at the borders of the earth before the clear-voiced Hesperides; for this lot wise Zeus assigned to him.

Regards, Jonas Bergman

http://www.paim.net/images/cape.gif
http://www.paim.net/images/plain.gif
http://www.paim.net/images/plain2.gif
http://www.paim.net/images/plain3.gif
http://www.paim.net/images/plain4.gif
http://www.paim.net/images/herodotus1.jpg
http://www.paim.net/images/ditch1.gif
http://www.paim.net/images/islands.gif
http://www.paim.net/images/currents.gif
http://www.paim.net/images/capital1.gif
http://www.paim.net/images/bays.gif
http://www.paim.net/images/lixus.gif
http://www.paim.net/images/lixus2.gif

Im going to visit the different areas shown in my website next week. Lixus, Phoenician settlements, central Morocco, Pays Zaer Zaiane etc. I will take huge amounts of photos I could post here. It will be interesting.

Regards, Jonas Bergman

Certainly your trip to Morocco will bring you a lot of new insights. We are curious to hear about your experiences. Remnants of the Atlantes could be found more probably in the mountainous regions where no destruction by flood waves (tsunamis) took place. As far as I know, not many archaeological excavations took place in Morocco up to now.
Dolmen and Cromlechs can be seen near Tanger and Tetouan, including the famous stone circle of Msoura, from the Megalithic Period. A German team has excavated a settlement of the Bell Beaker People in North Morocco. This shows that in these early times there were close relations between Morocco and Iberia. It would be very interesting if any remnants of ships were found anywhere in or before the coast of Morocco.
And have a look to the big plain, if any traces of the canal system are still visible. When I read the "Critias" of Plato, I imagined that the "very fertile" plain should be completely even, otherwise the described system of canals "in intervals of 100 stadia" could not be made.

The capital hill is the ancient hill/island of Chellah in the center of Morocco. No wonder it haven´t been located earlier, because half of the zones is built over by the capital city of Morocco. Rabat. Incredible. An very ancient area inhabited since Neolithic times. It was almost a coincidence that I discovered it. I was going to look at the river valley from behind the hill of Chellah when I saw huge mysterious channels/ditches going round it.

Im gonna travel there again very soon and investigate it further. I will post huge amounts of photos on Friday night or Saturday morning. STAY TUNED!

Regards, Jonas Bergman

As I read, the hill of Chellah is situated on the place of the phoenician city of Sala, called Salacolonia by the Romans. But the government of Morocco does not allow any archeological excavation at this place, because it is today a great Muslim cemetery.

Chellah is the arabic name of the hill. It was the phoenician city of Sala, called Sala colonia by the Romans. The Atlantean city must have been an earlier city in the area( if not Sala itself ).

A part of it is a great Muslim cemetery, as
you said, but it is outside the main hill.
It looks like the cemetery is built on the
Atlantean road to and from the royal palace, if you ask me.

Morocco is amazing. I can understand that
the Atlanteans liked warm baths in the winter. I am from Sweden ( cold country ) and I thought it was cold, even as far south as Marrakech.

The plains are enormous. I couldn't see a thing in the horizon near Casablanca
and Kenitra.

The plains above Bou Regreg is almost completely even with Pais Zair Zaine on the side of it. Pays Zair Zaine is covered by low mountains/high hills covered with forests. It is from these mountains Plato meant that they brought down the wood to the city. They did it with the help of canals at intervals of ca hundred stadia entering Bou Regreg.

Quote from Morocco by Barnaby Rogerson regarding Pays Zair Zaine
This rugged area of mountains, with no peak exceeding 1600m, is a westerly extension
of the Middle Atlas. It is a land sharply cut by a number of steep valleys lined by small streams that collect to drain into the Atlantic through the river Bou Regreg, which flows out between Salé and Rabat.

The river really lookes like a huge ditch
seen from the mouth. Not like normal rivers such as Sebou, Rbia or Loukkos.

I got tons of movie clips and photos from the area. I have a extremely slow internet connection so it will take some time for me to get it online.

Chellah got two springs of water. It has been a holy place since very ancient times, before the Arabian invasion.

The area is covered with red, black and white stones. I have seen what plato described as roofs formed out of the native rock

The dimensions of the hill and the circles
corresponds to Plato's very well.
He also said that it was located approximately 50 stadia from the plain. Chellah is actually located ca 50 stadia from the plains of Seboue, the plains of Casablanca and the plains of Bou Regreg.

I will upload a lot of movie clips and photos the coming days.

Check THIS for now.

Warm Regards, Jonas Bergman

The Pillar of Heracles between Tangier and Cueta

The hills near Lixus

Bridge between Sebou and Larache

Circles from behind Chellah
Circles from behind Chellah
Circles from behind Chellah

Regards, Jonas Bergman

----------------------------------------
Plato's Critias: The Earthquake made the area impassable and you can no longer sail out to the ocean from this quarter beacuse it is blocked by clay/mud

Plato's Timaeus: But at a later time there occurred earthquakes beyond what is ordained, and a flood ( giant waves ) was created and a grievous day and night befell them, when the whole body of your warriors was swallowed up by the earth, and the sealand of Atlantis in like manner was swallowed up by the sea/channel/sea-water/ and is now hidden. For the same reason, at this very time, at that spot, in the sheet of water/flooded plain/sea you can't pass anymore beacuse there is extremely much clay/mud in one's path which the sealand created as it settled down.
----------------------------------------

The earthquake created a tsunami.
The earthquake and the tsunami filled the area with mud. The harbours disappeared in the catastrophe. It couldn't be used as a
great capital and trading colony anymore, because the harbours were gone, and the whole area were covered with mud.

The mud covered the ancient harbours
and can still be seen today. This is why
the channels are not covered with water anymore. This is one of the reasons explaining why the water doesn´t reach this place today.

Plato didn't say that it sank beneath the waters. He said that it collapsed and was covered with mud. The channels and the delta
in the area of Chellah is covered with mud.

The original Greek words used to describe what happened after the catastrophe was:

êphanisthê = to make unseen, hide from sight, remove, to disappear, to destroy utterly, rase to the ground, lost, buried

aporon = without passage, impassable, pathless, trackless, hard to see one's way through, very difficult, hard to discover or solve

adiereunêton = unquestioned, uninvestigated, not searched

pêlou = clay, earth, covered in mud

karta = very, very, much, extremely, beyond measure, really and truly, most certainly

bracheos = short, briefly, in the way, in one's path, hindrance, before one's eyes

Check this to see what the earhquake and the tsunami in Lisbon 1755 accomplished.

Regards, Jonas Bergman

Looking towards the mouth of Bou Regreg

Sea cliffs in the area of Rabat

The river Bou Regreg near Rabat, but towards the plain

The river Bou Regreg near Rabat, but towards the plain 2

The river Bou Regreg near Rabat, but towards the plain 3

The plains of Bou Regreg

The plains of Bou Regreg 2

Quote from Plato's Critias translated by Benjawin Jowett
It received the streams which came down from the mountains, and winding round the plain and meeting at the city, was there let off into the sea. Further inland, likewise, straight canals of a hundred feet in width were cut from it through the plain, and again let off into the ditch leading to the sea: these canals were at intervals of a hundred stadia, and by them they brought down the wood from the mountains to the city, and conveyed the fruits of the earth in ships, cutting transverse passages from one canal into another, and to the city

The wooded mountains of Pays Zair Zaine

Plato: The surrounding mountains were celebrated for their number and size and beauty, far beyond any which still exist, having in them also many wealthy villages of country folk, and rivers, and lakes, and meadows supplying food enough for every animal, wild or tame, and much wood of various sorts, abundant for each and every kind of work.

The high wooded Atlas near Marrakech

The high Atlas Photo 2 - people are skiing in the background

The high Atlas Photo 3

The high Atlas from the plains near Marrakech

The high Atlas near Marrakech

Beginning of the high Atlas

The high wooded Atlas

The high Atlas from a village in the area

Below is some of my photos from Cromlech M´Soura between Tangier and Larache.

Photo 1
Photo 2
Photo 3
Photo 4
Photo 5
Photo 6

- Other photos below -

The flat and fertile plains of Atlantis

The Caves of Heracles

Regards, Jonas Bergman

Your photos from Morocco are very good and impressive. Could you find any map, where the ditches around the hill of Chellah are registered? Are the diameters of the rings in conformance with Plato´s figures? Did you see not only red rock formations, but also white and black rocks? Is the plain you have described really sheltered from the northern blasts?
Good luck for your future research!

I checked some maps at the Cartography Division of Morocco ( Conservation & Topography Department ) in Rabat.

The channels can clearly be seen, but they are disappearing when they are meeting the
large roads and buildings of Rabat. You can see small traces of them were they haven´t built roads,buildings or filled it.

This was more than 3000 years ago, so I can understand that it is hard to see. Plato said that everything was covered with mud.

1: The catastrophe covered it with mud. The islands collapsed inwards.

2: They have been filled and built over on many occasions since the time of Atlantis.

If you look at the other side of Rabat you can see the other end of it. The inner circle can clearly be seen on both sides of Chellah ( surrounding it ).

Quote Ulf: Are the diameters of the rings in conformance with Plato´s figures?

I haven't measured them ( yet ), but Plato said that the first zone of water, surrounding the central island, had a width of 1 stadia.

1 stadia = approximately 200 meters.

If you just look at it and try to estimate the distance I would say: approximately 200 meters.

He said that the next two zones, one of water and the other of land, had a diameter of 2 stadia. If you just look at it and try to estimate the distance I would say: approximately 400 meters each.

So I say: The measurements corresponds to Plato´s very well.

The central island ( Chellah ) is approximately 5 stadia, like Atlantis
and Lixus.

Quote Ulf:
Did you see not only red rock formations, but also white and black rocks?

The area is teeming with red, black and white rocks, and as I said: I have seen what Plato described as roofs formed out of the native rock

Quote from Critias translated by Benjawin Jowett
The stone which was used in the work they quarried from underneath the centre island, and from underneath the zones, on the outer as well as the inner side. One kind was white, another black, and a third red, and as they quarried, they at the same time hollowed out double docks, having roofs formed out of the native rock.

Although I couldn't take photographs of everything, because I didn't walk in that area ( I didn't have time enough, will have next time ) and the traffic on the roads is to fast. Most of the rocks can be seen behind buildings and trees. I have photos showing some of it.

Roofs form out of the native rock - in this case red and black stones

Roofs form out of the native rock - in this case red, black and white stones

Red and white stones

Red stones

The red stones looks even more red in reality. The photographs makes it look more dry.

The rocks(and roofs of rocks) I have showed in the pictures above I found under the zones were Plato said that it should be found.

Quote Ulf: Is the plain you have described really sheltered from the northern blasts?

The plains of Atlantis is sheltered by the Rif mountains in the north.

Quote Ulf: Good luck for your future research!

Thank you!

Regards, Jonas Bergman

The ruins of Chellah Photo 1

The ruins of Chellah Photo 2

The ruins of Chellah Photo 3

The ruins of Chellah Photo 4

The ruins of Chellah Photo 5

The ruins of Chellah Photo 6

The ruins of Chellah Photo 7

The ruins of Chellah Photo 8

For example: The foundation of Volubilis is attributed to the Romans, but they were not the first civilization to inhabit this area.
The Romans actually destroyed and built over almost every ancient Phoenician or Carthagian colony outside the straits, after the defeat of Carthage.

I understand your point. The Carthagians ruled roughly the same area as the Atlanteans. You mean that Plato could have used information he got from the Carthagians regarding the area, and invented the story. I can't see any reason why he wanted to do that. If he wanted to invent something like that, and use it for philosophical purposes, he could have described the area of Carthage instead, the true capital. He also said that the story was fact and not fiction. He didn't say that it was based on facts.

It could have been like this:

1. The first great civilization to inhabit the area was Plato's Atlantean ( founded by ancient Tyrians or whatever ). The capital was the area itself.

2. The second great civilization to inhabit the area was the Carthagian. Their capital was located in Tunisia.

3. The third great civilization to inhabit the area was the Roman. Their capital was located in Italy.

All those civilizations ruled roughly the same area, but at different times.

However, I think the Bell Beaker culture is a strong candidate to be the culture which the Egyptians discussed with Solon.

Bell Beaker culture started around 2700 BC in the Netherlands. And they are often presumed to have their major headquarters in Spain. Their culture lasted until roughly 2200 BC-2000BC. They were a merchant culture, based on selling prestige items to kings in western Europe, England, and Morocco. http://www.comp-archaeology.org/Bellbeaker.htm

Here is a map of where Bell Beaker people have been found. http://www.comp-archaeology.org/BenzGramschEtAl1988MapCordedWareCAWEB.jpg

The above map link shows that these Bell Beaker people were travelling across the sea in several locations. 1) The English Channel; 2) The Straight of Gibralter; and 3) to the Mediterranean islands of Majorca, western Sardinia, and western Sicily.

This is very significant to me, since archaeology has not found any other boating-related artifacts anywhere in Europe, Great Brittain, or Morocco during the period 4500-3000 BC.

Thanks for all the hard work your doing and for the wonderful pictures. Every day we inch closer to the truth. United we stand, divided we fall. Keep up the good work.

Do you have any aerial shots that we can visualize those rings better? I'll try and find some when I have time as well.

Quote from Critias translated by Benjamin Jowett
In the first place, they dug out of the earth whatever was to be found there, solid as well as fusile, and that which is now only a name and was then something more than a name, orichalcum, was dug out of the earth in many parts of the island, being more precious in those days than anything except gold.

Another interesting quote:

This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus, such as Cecrops, and Erechtheus, and Erichthonius, and Erysichthon, and the names of the women in like manner.

The time of Cecrops, Erchtheus etc is between
1100 B.C and 1600 B.C. The end of the bronze age.

The quote below is intersting, because it is connected to the early Phoenicians in the West. They founded Gades.

He also begat and brought up five pairs of twin male children; and dividing the island of Atlantis into ten portions, he gave to the first-born of the eldest pair his mother's dwelling and the surrounding allotment, which was the largest and best, and made him king over the rest; the others he made princes, and gave them rule over many men, and a large territory. And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic. To his twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus.

The Tyrian/Phoenician connection is very obvious when you read: THIS

Quotes from Strabo: Geography XVII ( ca 22 A.D )
To the south, near Lixus and Coteis, is a bay called Emporicus [situated between modern Salee and Larache ], having upon it Phoenician merchantile settlements. The whole coast continues with this bay abounds with them.

It is said that the Sinus Emporicus ( or merchants bay ) was a cave which admits the sea at high tide to the distance even of seven stadia, and in front of this bay was low and level tract with an altar of Hercules ( Melqart ) upon it, which, they say, is not covered by the tide. This, I ofcourse, consider to be one of the fictitious stories. Like this is the tale ´that on other bays in the succeding coast there were ancient settlements of Tyrians, now abandoned, which consisted of not less than three hundred cities, and were destroyed by the Pharusii and the Nigritae. These people, they say, are distant thirty days journey from Lixus.

The succeding coast is the coast from Rabat -to El Jadida.

I believe an excavation in the area surrounding Chellah will give us an answer.

Regards, Jonas Bergman

According to Diodorus,the Atlanteans inhabited a rich country bordering the Atlantic ocean.They were notable for their hospitality to strangers and said that the gods were born among them. They claimed that Uranus was their first King,and it was he who civilized the people,causing them to dwell in cities. After his death,Uranus 45 children divided the Kingdom when Atlas (one of the Titans)received the area of Atlantis and named it for himself. Atlas was a wise ruler and like his father also agreat astrologer. Since he was the first one to discover the knowledge of thesphere,the people have created a legend saying that he bears the world upon his shoulders.

QUOTE FROM LIBRARY OF HISTORY,BOOK III,56.1-4
Now the Atlantians,dwelling as they do in the regions on the edge of the ocean and inhabiting a fertile territory,are reputed far to excel their neighbours in reverence towards the gods and the humanity they showed in their dealings with strangers, and the gods,they say,were born among them.And their account,they maintain, is in agreement with that of the most renowned of the Greek poets when he represent Hera as saying:For I go to see the ends of the bountiful earth,Oceanus source of the gods amd Tethys divine their mother.

This is the account given in their myth:
Their first king was Uranus,and he gathered the human beings,who dwelt in scattered habitations,within the shelter of a walled city and caused his subjects to cease from their lawless ways and their bestial manner of living,discovering for them the uses of cultivated fruits,how to store them up,and not a few other things which are of benefit to man;and he also subdued the larger part of the inhabited earth in particular the regions to the west and the north. And since he was a carefull observer of the stars he foretold many things which would take place troughout the world;and for the common people he introduced the year on the basis of the movement of the sun and the month on that of the moon,and instructed them in the seasons which recur year after year. Consequently the masses of the people, being ignorant of the eternal arrangement of the stars and marvelling at the events which were taking place as he had predicted ,conceived that the man
who taught such things partook of the nature of the gods,and after he had passed from among men they accorded to him immortal honours,both because of his benefactions and because of his knowledge of the stars;and then they transferred his name to the firmament of heaven,both because they thought that he had been so intimately acquainted with the risings and the settings of the stars and with whatever else took place in the fi rmament,and because they would surpass his benefactions by the magnitude of the honours which they would show him,in that for all subsequent time they
proclaimed him to be the king of the universe.

Diodorus said that Atlas and Uranos was great astrologers inhabiting the land bordering the Atlantic Ocean.( astrologer = a man who has knowledge of the movements of the heavenly bodies ) This is very interesting because some megalithic temples ( including Stone Henge and M´Soura in Morocco ) shows great knowledge of the sky and the heavenly
bodies.

To Uranus,the myth continues,were born forty-five sons from a number of wives, and,of these,eighteen,it is said,were by Titaea,each of them bearing a distinct name,but all of them as a group were called,after their mother,Titans.

Titaea,because she was prudent and had brought about many good deeds for the peoples,was deifi ed after her death by those whom she had helped and her name was changed to Gaia.To Uranus were also born daughters,the two eldest of whom were by far the most renowned above the others and were called Basileia and Rhea,whom some also named Pandora.Of these daughters, Basileia ,who was the eldest and far excelled the others in both prudence and
understanding,reared all her brothers, showing them collectively a mother’s kindness;consequently she was given the appellation of “Great Mother;” and
after her father had been translated from among men into the circle of the gods, with the approval of the masses and her brothers she succeded to the royal dignity,though she was still a maiden and because of her exceedingly great chastity had been unwilling to unite in their marriage with any man.But later, because of her desire to leave sons who should succed to the throne,she united in marriage with Hyperion,one of her brothers,for whom she had the greatest affection.

QUOTE FROM LIBRARY OF HISTORY,BOOK III,57.5-58
and as for their mother (Basileia,the Great Mother,Mother of Gods ),they considered her to be a godess and erected altars to her,and imitating the incidents of her life by the pounding of the kettledrums and the clash of the cymbals they rendered unto her in this way sacrifices and all other honours.

This is very interesting,because we know that people of the megalithic era worshiped some kind of mother godess and sometimes erected altars.

QUOTE FROM LIBRARY OF HISTORY,BOOK III,60.1-4
After the death of Hyperion,the myth relates,the kingdom was divided among the sons of Uranus,the most renowned of whom were Atlas and Cronus. Of these sons Atlas received as his part the regions on the coast of the ocean,and he not only gave the name of Atlantians to his peoples but likewise called the greatest mountain in the land Atlas. They also say that he perfected the science of astrology and was the fi rst to publish to mankind the doctrine of the sphere; and it was for this reason that the idea was held that the entire heavens were supported upon the shoulders of Atlas, the myth darkly hinting in this way at his
discovery and description of the sphere.

QUOTE FROM LIBRARY OF HISTORY,BOOK III,61.1-4
Cronus,they say was lord of Sicily and Libya,and Italy as well,and,in a word, established his kingdom over the regions to the west;and everywhere he occupied with garrisons the commanding hills and the strongholds of the regions,this being the reason why both troughout Sicily and the parts which incline towards the west
many of the lofty places are called to this day after him "Cronia".

Monte Kronio in Sicily is associated with
Cronus.(for example )

QUOTE FROM www.agrigento-sicilia.it
The Kronion Mount,a peak rising to 386 metres amidst a desert area is closesly associated with Khronos (Cronus to Romans),the God of Time,born of Gaia, Goddess of the Earth,and Uranus,God of the sky.

Diodorus told us that the Titans and the walled city of Uranus were created many generations before the Troyan war.

The descriptions: worship of mother
godess (erected altars,etc ),ruled the land to the west and the north at the Atlantic Ocean (the Atlas mountains,Iberia,etc ),ruled the area around Sicily.(Italy,Sardinia,Sicily etc ),they were great astrologers (knowledge of the sky and the movements of the heavenly bodies ),ruled many generations before the Troyan war.

This coincides with the Neolithic and megalithic time of this area. The strong similarities between the Titans of Diodorus and the Bell Beaker culture of western Europe,are interesting.(Western Europe megalithic era:ca 4500-2000 B.C ) (Troyan war:ca 1250 BC,according to Diodorus )

Two quotes from “Megaliths and Stone Circles of Morocco and Their Relation to Those of the Mediterranean and Europe ”By
Natalya Marquand Al Akhawayn University | Professor Dr.Eric Ross

1:While the culture may have only just touched the tip of North Africa,its presence can no longer be denied and grouped in together with the Punic eras
or Phoenician peoples.There was something before them.

2:Taking the dating from a different approach,looking at what else was a part of the circle-builders lives,the dates of agricultural settlement in coastal Morocco were between 6000-5000BCE,and southern Morocco from 4000-3000BCE.This agrees with the general era of time put forward through the carbon dating method.

I think the story Diodorus told regarding the Titans of the west, may be connected to the Bell Beaker people, but I still prefer the Tyrian/Phoenician connection concerning Atlantis.

Regards, Jonas Bergman

quote:

---

It is said that the Sinus Emporicus ( or merchants bay ) was a cave which admits the sea at high tide to the distance even of seven stadia, and in front of this bay was low and level tract with an altar of Hercules ( Melqart ) upon it, which, they say, is not covered by the tide. This, I ofcourse, consider to be one of the fictitious stories. Like this is the tale that on other bays in the succeding coast there were ancient settlements of Tyrians, now abandoned, which consisted of not less than three hundred cities, and were destroyed by the Pharusii and the Nigritae. These people, they say, are distant thirty days journey from Lixus.

---

Based upon my research of the Phoenician archaeological ruins found to present day, which has been plotted against a copy of Claudius Ptolemy's map of Morocco from the 1st century A.D., it is my belief that the photos in the following link are photos of Strabo's "Sinus Emporicus" (Merchant's Bay). There is no other natural water inlet between Sale & Rabat...other than the Merdja Zerga Lagoon (a saltwater & freshwater mixing zone).

Note: the page is best viewed in an expanded window.
http://www.geocities.com/ahmose570bc/firstexpedition_page_4.html

By the way, these pictures were taken in August of 2000, at which point Morocco had been in the midst of a drought for over 5 years. The lagoon normally extends much further inland than is shown in the pictures.

Jonas, when were you in Morocco, how was it, and when do you plan to return? I am going in October of this year.

Warm Regards,

Erick

------------------
"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."

I guess you mean between Larache and Rabat. ( and not Sale - Rabat )
Between Larache Rabat there are two water inlets. The large river of Sebou at Kenitra and the Merdja Zerga Lagoon. I counted the "succeding coast" as the coast between Rabat and El Jadida because here the coast turns in a new straight line. ( although, how I counted it doesn´t matter that much )

Quote Erick: The lagoon normally extends much further inland than is shown in the pictures.

I know. I have been in that area. It could very well be "merchants bay".

Quote Erick: Jonas, when were you in Morocco, how was it, and when do you plan to return? I am going in October of this year.

It was great. The nature is amazing, especially since I traveled in the winter.

I followed the coast from Tangier to
El Jadida looking for remains of the capital
city of Atlantis. I visited Tetouan, Cueta, Tangier, Cromlech M`Soura, Lixus, the area of Merdja Zerga, the African Pillar of Herkules, Seboue/Kenitra, Rabat/Bou Regreg, the many ditches between Casablanca and Rabat, the enormous plains, Marrakech, the high Atlas, the small wooded mountain range of Pays Zair Zaine etc.

Pays Zair Zaine in the middle of the country

It is very obvious where the capital city is located. Only one area corresponds to Plato´s descriptions of the area surrounding the capital, and that is the delta of Bou Regreg. It is a perfect match. Bou Regreg really looks like a huge ditch seen from the delta of Rabat. The nature of the place is unique. It is like an extended part of Pays Zair Zaine going down in the Atlantic Ocean.
Huge hills surrounding each other. It is also located near the center of the plains of Morocco, like Plato described.

I visited the ancient ruins of Chella/Sala in Rabat. I didn´t notice it at first, but when I went behind the hill of Chellah to look at the river valley, I noticed huge mysterious ditches/circles going round it.
I checked the rocks beneath the zones and discovered that they were red, black and white, sometimes forming roofs out of the native rock. Like Plato described it. It is very easy to understand what Plato meant. The translations ain´t that wrong.

Map + photos - have a look

One of the springs of water flowing out from
the hill of Chellah below:

Photo 1

Photo 2

Photo 3

I don´t know exactly when I will return, but I definitely will. Maybe soon, maybe in October. I will post more photos and a lot of movie clips soon.

Warm Regards, Jonas Bergman

[This message has been edited by Jonas Bergman (edited 02-23-2004).]

Thanks for your answers to my questions! I asked for the maps, because on a map it is easier to make measurements of the ring diameters etc. than in the nature. But it seems you could only see the map with the circular ditches, and not buy it.

I agree with you that the capital city of Atlantis was destroyed by a huge Tsunami, caused by an underwater earthquake. Plato spoke about earthquakes and floods. In a recent TV spot about Tsunamis in the Pacific there was told that the destroying effect of a Tsunami onto the coast land is increased very much, when near the coast there are lagoons or canals where the shock wave in the water, which is the reason of the Tsunami water wave, can be passed forward into the interior of the country. Such an ideal shock wave transport medium is the canal between the Royal city of Atlantis and the sea coast!

You may be also right that the Atlantean civilization was the first in this area, before the Phoenicians, Carthagians and Romans. I don´t think that Atlantis was founded from Tyros (may be vice versa). In my opinion the Atlanteans were the forerunners in the European and Mediterranean sea trade, and the Phoenicians took it over from them.

So, atalante´s remark about the Bell Beaker People may be a clue for archeological investigations about this time. The map shows that remnants of this culture are found in all coastal areas in Europe and North Africa; in the Mediterranean only as far east as Italy (as Plato told: in Europe as far as Tyrrhenia . .) , and along big rivers. I am very interested in the Bell Beaker Culture, because in our area (near Mainz/Mayence/Roman:Moguntia) in the Rhein/Rhine Valley in Germany, were found many remnants of this culture. Most scientists don´t think that the origin of the Bell Beaker People was in the Netherlands, as atalante told, or Britain, where the most traces could be found, but in south west Iberia. E.g. : http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-V5.htm
May be that in Morocco not very much was excavated up to this time.

Madison, who made in his “Berber Project” an intensive literature research about the North African Berbers and their descendants in Europe and America (besides much nonsense in other respects) wrote that the Bell Beaker Culture is of mixed Spanish and African origin. http://www.talossa.net/files/kingdom/berb2.html :
“Bell Beaker Peoples established complex trading networks, and the diverse regions of Western Europe and North Africa were united as never before” (Cunliffe)
“The trade between Africa and Spain even predated the Beaker period” (Harrison)
They had a lucrative copper trade: “they brought chalcolithic culture to Western Europe” (Trump)
“It will not surprise us to find major Beaker Culture sites at Ataluyela, Spain, and Atalaya, Portugal” (Castro)
“Perhaps when Plato called the Berber Megalith Culture “Atlantis”, he remembered their actual name?”

As to the Orichalcum being copper: I wrote already in the “Orichalcum” thread, that it was not pure copper, but must have been an alloy of copper with 2 – 6% arsenic content, the so called “arsenic bronze”, which has the same good mechanical properties as the later (in the Bronze Age) introduced tin bronze, but after a special heat treatment got a tarnish with an attractive golden colour. http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000454-2.html
In the so called Copper Age most of the used copper tools and weapons were from arsenic bronze, but from the view of their surface we call them “copper tools”. The copper ores in southern Spain have a natural arsenic content, so it was only necessary to melt it to get the copper-arsenic alloy. These copper mines were used by the Phoenicians and perhaps even earlier by the Bell Beaker People. I do not know if such copper ores with arsenic content were also mined in Morocco.

"Plato´s remark that the city walls of the innermost circle "flashed with the red light of orichalcum" shows that orichalcum must contain copper, because copper is the only metal
which has a red colour and gives it also to its alloys. But copper and all known copper alloys exposed to the atmosphere will soon tarnish to an unattractive brown and black , later to a green colour.
Is there any metal or alloy, which retains its red or red golden colour also after tarnishing?
In a paper of Peter Northover in "Old World Archaeometallurgy" 1989 is written, that he studied dagger blades from the first half of the second millenium BC, found in Palestine, which were made from copper containing 3 - 6 % arsenic. By a yet unknown process the surfaces of these artifacts were enriched with arsenic and consisted of a layer of the intermetallic compound Cu3As. This normally has a silver appearance that will tarnish to an attractive red golden colour.
Northover believed that these weapons were prestige production because of their rarity. Only very few similar artifacts were found in other cultures of the early bronze age, e.g. near Quimperle, France. The process of producing the special arsenic-rich surface is not known and has not yet been reproduced.

This could be a possible explanation for Plato´s "orichalcum" :
1. Copper with arsenic content could be "dug out of the earth", because most copper ores naturally contain a certain amount of arsenic. During the normal melting processes it is possible to remain "arsenic copper" or "Arsenic Bronze", which is as hard as tin bronze and can be used for tools and weapons. Most of the copper artifacts from the so called "Copper Age" (ca.4500 - 2000 BC), which was the oldest metal using period prior to the "Bronze Age", are not made from pure copper, but from arsenic copper, which has the same appearance as copper.
2. The special process to produce an arsenic rich surface was necessary to make metal objects, which did not loose their attractive shining surface appearance after a short time, but due to the coloured tarnish retained their golden appearance. This could be the reason that these objects "were more precious in those days than anything except gold". They had the colour of gold, better mechanical properties than gold, and were very rare due to the complicated process of the production of this special tarnish.
3. The know-how to produce these valuable objects has since been forgotten - in our times as well as in Plato´s times, because after the general introduction of tin bronze instead of arsenic bronze during the Bronze Age all the old techniques must have got lost. So Plato could write, that orichalcum "is now only a name and was then something more than a name."

I couldn´t buy a map of it because I was a foreigner. I had to wait for special permission, and it would have taken some weeks. Although I have read that it is possible to order older maps of the area from a company in London, but I can´t remember where I read it. The maps they showed me weren´t exactly great, but I could see the ditches disappearing beneath roads and buildings of Rabat. The most important thing is how it looked to the ancient people, not how it is seen from above. They didn´t have airplanes and satellites in the time of Atlantis.

Quote Ulf: May be that in Morocco not very much was excavated up to this time.

That is true.

Quote Ulf: “Perhaps when Plato called the Berber Megalith Culture “Atlantis”, he remembered their actual name?”

I don´t believe that Atlantis was the actual name, because Plato told us that Solon translated every name into Greek.
In other words: When Solon translated it to "Atlantis" the priests probably spoke about the Western Ocean or the area of the Western Mountains ( The Atlas mountains ), with another name. The Greeks called this area Atlas or Atlantis, and that is why Solon translated it as Atlantis.

Quote Ulf: As to the Orichalcum being copper: I wrote already in the “Orichalcum” thread, that it was not pure copper, but must have been an alloy of copper with 2 – 6% arsenic content, the so called “arsenic bronze”, which has the same good mechanical properties as the later (in the Bronze Age) introduced tin bronze, but after a special heat treatment got a tarnish with an attractive golden colour.

When I wrote "copper(orichalcum)" I meant copper alloys in general. ( bronze, brass, arsenic bronze etc )

Your Arsenic Bronze theorie is intersting. The question is what Plato really meant. Did he mean that the know-how to produce the copper alloy had been forgotten, or did he mean that it was a very popular alloy in the time of Atlantis, but not anymore? ( perhaps because of the iron age )

Translation from PDL regarding Orichalcum [114e] and the island itself furnished most of the requirements of daily life,--metals, to begin with, both the hard kind and the fusible kind, which are extracted by mining, and also that kind which is now known only by name but was more than a name then, there being mines of it in many places of the island,--I mean “orichalcum,”1 which was the most precious of the metals then known, except gold.

Quote Brig: Jonas, any chace of obtaining pictures of this area from one of the orbitors? Ancient land sites often crop up in these pictures....Note the find in the Sahara, amoung others, due to their traces still being evident in these overhead shots.

I have no idea, but I think it will be hard to see anything. Rabat is a modern town, not a sandy desert.

Regards, Jonas Bergman

From your pictures I think, that the hill of Chellah and the surrounding circular ditches have the same origin as the known structure of the Guelb er Richat in Mauretania:

< http://www.image-contrails.de/mauretania/mauretania-met-richat-2.html >
< http://www.tlg.musin.de/afrika/html/t_afrmauretanien-richat1.htm >
http://daac.gsfc.nasa.gov/DAAC_DOCS/geomorphology/GEO_2/GEO_PLATE_T-31.html

It is a dome structure lifted up by internal forces, and then partially eroded due to the different hardness of the sediment layers.This Richat structure has a diameter of 37 kilometers, but in 50 km distance is a similar structure of only 5 km diameter. Why should not the structure you found near Rabat have the same origin? The originally parallel layers of different rocks were lifted up in one point to form a dome. Only in this way it is possible to declare that springs are arising near the top of a hill, as Plato described it on the central hill within the circular ditches. The water comes from mountains far away, along a water leading layer which in the dome area has been lifted up. (In Plato´s narration there was much more water coming than in your photos, but something can have changed during the millenia that have passed).

In your photos you have shown only the inner and the second ditch. Could you detect any traces of the third ditch?

When you think that orichalcum was any copper alloy and Plato meant, in the Iron Age people could have forgotten that e.g.tin bronze was once the most popular alloy: this is very unprobable, because in his time the Greeks used bronze very much for vessels, statues etc.
Also Plato describes that the outer wall was covered with chalcum, that is copper, and only the inner wall with orichalcum.

By the way: in your website 12: the time of Atlantis, you should write founded instead of found.

You wrote: Why should not the structure you found near Rabat have the same origin?

Where did I say that it could not?

I have earlier said: The nature of the place is unique. It is like an extended part of Pays Zair Zaine going down in the Atlantic Ocean. Huge hills surrounding each other.

When I visited the area I could clearly see that most of it must have been formed by nature, and been there already from the beginning. The near mountains of Pays Zair Zaine are volcanic.

Plato didn´t say that humans built the ditches/channels surrounding the capital.
Poseidon did ( in legend ). The surrounding channels were there already from the beginning. Nature formed it. The Atlanteans only changed and filled it.

So the hill of Chellah and the surrounding circular ditches could have the same origin as the known structure of the Guelb er Richat in Mauretania.

Quote Ulf: Plato´s narration there was much more water coming than in your photos, but something can have changed during the millenia that have passed)

1: I couldn´t see the actual source. The stream shown in the pictures is flowing out from a small village below the hill. ( passing their houses )

2. It could very well have changed during the millenias that have passed.

3. Plato didn´t say that huge amounts of waters were flowing out from the hill.

4. This is not the only stream. I couldn´t
detect the other because of robbers and wild dogs ( looking like hyenas ), in the surrounding area. I didn´t have time enough either, but I will have next time.

Quote Ulf: When you think that orichalcum was any copper alloy and Plato meant, in the Iron Age people could have forgotten that e.g.tin bronze was once the most popular alloy:

I don´t think orichalcum was all copper alloys, I think it was a copper alloy.

Plato didn´t say that orichalcum ( meaning mountain copper ) had been forgotten. He said: which is now only a name, and was then something more than a name. This can be interpreted in many ways, but the easiest way is ofcourse that it had been forgotten.

Quote Ulf: By the way: in your website 12: the time of Atlantis, you should write founded instead of found.

Done! I noticed that now. Thank you. I guess there are more errors.

Regards, Jonas Bergman