Over the past years there has gradually occured a completly new, and hereto unknown source of genuine information about the mythical Atlantis.

The basic source is a part of the Nordic Folklore tradition, originating from the time when the Norse - as well as other Indo-Europeans - kept their historical and cultural identity alive and evolving, - by an ongoing oral tradition.

Before a surpressing latino writng-culture expanded all over the Eurasian continent; all pagan people did keep a culture of ORAL TRADITION. Today NONE of this culture remains, except from a handfew exceptions that have survived in the remote provinces og the highest north. During the 20th century we found and catalogued such remains in the mountains of the Himalayas and the Urals, as well as the deep arctical forests of Carelia, Finland and Scandinavia.

Thus we know that the ancient societies all over Europe and Asia kept their own history, containing stories about their origin, history and identity, - and delivered to elected or choosen youngsters, with a special ability to memorize. After years of learning, practice and examination they got to be story-tellers and "wise men" for the next generation.

As any larger body of information about this world also the Nordic Myths are dwelling upon a long, ancient tradition of keeping this knowledge intact and correct.

Just Legends?!

With the introduction of the latin "writing-culture" we may observe that the old ("pagan") sagas got undermined, distorted and even prohibited. Though we may still find fragments of the genuine stuff, - inbetween the distortions and misconceptions found in most of the sagas written down during the 12th-14th centuries.

Thus it may seem as a sheer miracle that researchers within the Science of Folklore and Traditions (antropologists) still find genuine and original information - resited by memory from old people still living in remote districts of Norway, Finland and Russia...

The most fantastic story was discovered in Finland as late as 1984-85, when a complete Family Saga was revealed. Showing to be an incredibly detailed story of our ancient antiquity theese tellings was catalogued as "The Family Saga of Strömsö Manor" by the "Archive of Folk Culture" in Helsinki.

This Saga is built around a chronological history where many incidents are already known, but most are very litle or not at all known from our public history.

Moreover the Saga explains the mere roots of the caucasian people and their culture, as originating in Fenno-Scandia during ice-time (!) And even worse; it does give a very precise, logic and detailed explanation about an ancient world-wide culture, as the common source of the European, Finnish, Asian and Indian Mythologies!

Since this have been genreally unknown to humanity and our academies, the present Nordic and Finnish Institutes of History has - not surprisingly - rejected the whole concept of such a saga; as "nonsens" and non-significant"...!
Even though it is completly documented. In interviews and dicussions even Finnish authorities have dismissed this historical legacy as "fantasies and speculations".

Lost, - But Found!

None the less have more archaeological discoveries from 1993-2002 given proof to the statements given by the saga already in 1985! One clear-cut example is the statement from the saga that; "The origin of our arctic culture evolved in the Baltic Area DURING ice-time, in a time we called "Alt-land-is", meaning "All-land-ice", because the whole Eurasian continent where covered in an enormous ice-sheet, exept from a small area around the Finnish Gulf that was kept open and warm enough for our ancestors to survive, - thanks to the Gulf-stream that used to end here at that time..." (!!!)

In 1995-96 a team of Russian and Norwegian scientists discovered a highly remarkable settlement - "from modern human beeings" - within the White Sea, where more than 40.000 years old...
Even worse did it become when a Finnish truck-driver got the rigth to dig out a cavern outside Kristinestad, on Finlands western coast. In 1995 he proved that there had been people using the cave more than 70.000 years ago!
Since than Finlands State-archeologists have been exploring about 1/8 of the cave, and by 1998-2002 it was proven that humans have lived in the "wolf-cave" for more than 280.000 years - i.e. during the coldest ice-time!!!

Yet, - the "Family-saga of Strömsö Manor" is
still not given any credit, although it is given specific information about several (unknown) artefacts to be hidden underground in Finland. One of theese is the crown and the crest of arms of the authentic Finnish Kingdom, that subdued to the religious regime of Europe (becomming part of the catholic Sweden) first in 1248.

According to the Saga this kingline, as well as their insignias and symbols originated from "As-Hel"; the arctic Kingdom of Altlandis. And as we may see on maps before 1854; the old zero-meridian (today GMT) used to run from As-Hel (todays Hel-sing-ki) to Hel-As, dividing Crete into a Eastern vs. a Western hemispheres - creating the basic culture that developed into the eastern Greek and the western Roman kingdoms as of 9000 years ago.
Thus we may understand that Alt-land-is and Atlantis is refering to the same myth, based on the same historical fact!

By today an exstensive lineout of the Bock Family Saga, - with a comprehensive description of the historical Altlandis - can be found at www.bocksaga.de.

Happy New Year!

As he was the straigth descendant and heir of the first Man to walk this planet - he could be VERY real, and still considered to be the Highest (of heredity) and the First (among brothers). Not to forget that he was the elder of the (large) Aser family, - once widely regarded to be the origin of all royal families known...

Now, since royal families still exists - WE may have a chance to what our ancient evolutional and cro(w)nological history was all about. Before it got altered, forgotten or twisted. And changed into pure superstition. As the Oera Linda says - "by the Magis", i.e. priests.

This superstition is still bearing a great impact on how we consider the essential parts of nature, - such as the "esoterical" dimensions, where matter, speed and space meet at a very fine, elementary level.

Today - thanks God (!) - do we have the natural sciences back on the legal side of society AGAIN, - recovered and redeveloped. But still great many people consider the "mysteries" of life as of "supernatural" nature. Because there is still room for the repetitions of a particualr superstition, mixed with both historical information as well as legends.

Today we still regard this kind of superstition as relevant. There are literally billions that still trust beyond doubt in ONE of the three "holy books", - that ALL claim themselves to be The One. To settle - between these monopolistic belief-systems - who is rigth there is only one metod possible, which is power-games, antagonism and outrigth war...

AS long as we - the citizens of this day and age - keep our fossil deceptions in regard. Though, - it does look as we have been getting somewhat more sober during the later weeks, months and years. At least a good few people NOW seem to understand that these very mechanisms - of sociologal, cultural and historical nature - actually have unfolded during the last millenias. Leaving us all in a cul de sac...

When time allows I hope we may elaborate some more on the basis of the sound that form the word and the meaning of "mystery".
The first syllable "MY" is indeed a biggie within the sounds of our languages. So we may have some goodie in spare for the winter...

Good to back online!

Now, since royal families still exists - WE may have a chance to what our ancient evolutional and cro(w)nological history was all about. Before it got altered, forgotten or twisted. And changed into pure superstition. As the Oera Linda says - "by the Magis", i.e. priests.

This superstition is still bearing a great impact on how we consider the essential parts of nature, - such as the "esoterical" dimensions, where matter, speed and space meet at a very fine, elementary level.

Today - thanks God (!) - do we have the natural sciences back on the legal side of society AGAIN, - recovered and redeveloped. But still great many people consider the "mysteries" of life as of "supernatural" nature. Because there is still room for the repetitions of a particualr superstition, mixed with both historical information as well as legends.

Today we still regard this kind of superstition as relevant. There are literally billions that still trust beyond doubt in ONE of the three "holy books", - that ALL claim themselves to be The One. To settle - between these monopolistic belief-systems - who is rigth there is only one metod possible, which is power-games, antagonism and outrigth war...

AS long as we - the citizens of this day and age - keep our fossil deceptions in regard. Though, - it does look as we have been getting somewhat more sober during the later weeks, months and years. At least a good few people NOW seem to understand that these very mechanisms - of sociologal, cultural and historical nature - actually have unfolded during the last millenias. Leaving us all in a cul de sac...

When time allows I hope we may elaborate some more on the basis of the sound that form the word and the meaning of "mystery".
The first syllable "MY" is indeed a biggie within the sounds of our languages. So we may have some goodie in spare for the winter...

Good to back online!

Best regards

Now, since royal families still exists - WE may have a chance to what our ancient evolutional and cro(w)nological history was all about. Before it got altered, forgotten or twisted. And changed into pure superstition. As the Oera Linda says - "by the Magis", i.e. priests.

This superstition is still bearing a great impact on how we consider the essential parts of nature, - such as the "esoterical" dimensions, where matter, speed and space meet at a very fine, elementary level.

Today - thanks God (!) - do we have the natural sciences back on the legal side of society AGAIN, - recovered and redeveloped. But still great many people consider the "mysteries" of life as of "supernatural" nature. Because there is still room for the repetitions of a particualr superstition, mixed with both historical information as well as legends.

Today we still regard this kind of superstition as relevant. There are literally billions that still trust beyond doubt in ONE of the three "holy books", - that ALL claim themselves to be The One. To settle - between these monopolistic belief-systems - who is rigth there is only one metod possible, which is power-games, antagonism and outrigth war...

AS long as we - the citizens of this day and age - keep our fossil deceptions in regard. Though, - it does look as we have been getting somewhat more sober during the later weeks, months and years. At least a good few people NOW seem to understand that these very mechanisms - of sociologal, cultural and historical nature - actually have unfolded during the last millenias. Leaving us all in a cul de sac...

When time allows I hope we may elaborate some more on the basis of the sound that form the word and the meaning of "mystery".
The first syllable "MY" is indeed a biggie within the sounds of our languages. So we may have some goodie in spare for the winter...

Good to be back online!

Best regards

Now, since royal families still exists - WE may have a chance to what our ancient evolutional and cro(w)nological history was all about. Before it got altered, forgotten or twisted. And changed into pure superstition. As the Oera Linda says - "by the Magis", i.e. priests.

This superstition is still bearing a great impact on how we consider the essential parts of nature, - such as the "esoterical" dimensions, where matter, speed and space meet at a very fine, elementary level.

Today - thanks God (!) - do we have the natural sciences back on the legal side of society AGAIN, - recovered and redeveloped. But still great many people consider the "mysteries" of life as of "supernatural" nature. Because there is still room for the repetitions of a particualr superstition, mixed with both historical information as well as legends.

Today we still regard this kind of superstition as relevant. There are literally billions that still trust beyond doubt in ONE of the three "holy books", - that ALL claim themselves to be The One. To settle - between these monopolistic belief-systems - who is rigth there is only one metod possible, which is power-games, antagonism and outrigth war...

AS long as we - the citizens of this day and age - keep our fossil deceptions in regard. Though, - it does look as we have been getting somewhat more sober during the later weeks, months and years. At least a good few people NOW seem to understand that these very mechanisms - of sociologal, cultural and historical nature - actually have unfolded during the last millenias. Leaving us all in a cul de sac...

When time allows I hope we may elaborate some more on the basis of the sound that form the word and the meaning of "mystery".
The first syllable "MY" is indeed a biggie within the sounds of our languages. So we may have some goodie in spare for the winter...

Good to be back online!

Best regards

The feminine aspect of the whole word - My-S-Te-Ra is completly ob vious. Still we have the i in the beginning/end, that is re-pointing/re-inforcing the whole thing once more.

Then there is occuring a number of essential connotations (i.e. sounds as words AND ascociations ("meaning")). Like My-Sa(winking), My-Ga (mosq-i-to), My-Ra (ant), Myrra (Myrrh), My-Se (whey), My-Te (myth!). And it just keeps growing, multidimensionly, from there. A basic word from the latin pop-ups are my-cel-i-um.

"i-um" refers to the phrase "home", also in terms of our planet. Thus ium also reflects to an earthly "omni-presence".

Then "my-cell" reflects the most tiny, microscopic cells. Like my-cro/mi-cro is inside the visible nature, while ma-cro reflects the large, or overall, grand sum of visible nature.

Finally we check the whole word itself - and what it is used to describe - as of today. That takes us to the world of Biology, - where the mycelium is known to has an awful lot to do with the origin AND present basis of all biological life, as we know it...

(must be continued)

Best regards

Now, since royal families still exists - WE may have a chance to what our ancient evolutional and cro(w)nological history was all about. Before it got altered, forgotten or twisted. And changed into pure superstition. As the Oera Linda says - "by the Magis", i.e. priests.

This superstition is still bearing a great impact on how we consider the essential parts of nature, - such as the "esoterical" dimensions, where matter, speed and space meet at a very fine, elementary level.

Today - thanks God (!) - do we have the natural sciences back on the legal side of society AGAIN, - recovered and redeveloped. But still great many people consider the "mysteries" of life as of "supernatural" nature. Because there is still room for the repetitions of a particualr superstition, mixed with both historical information as well as legends.

Today we still regard this kind of superstition as relevant. There are literally billions that still trust beyond doubt in ONE of the three "holy books", - that ALL claim themselves to be The One. To settle - between these monopolistic belief-systems - who is rigth there is only one metod possible, which is power-games, antagonism and outrigth war...

AS long as we - the citizens of this day and age - keep our fossil deceptions in regard. Though, - it does look as we have been getting somewhat more sober during the later weeks, months and years. At least a good few people NOW seem to understand that these very mechanisms - of sociologal, cultural and historical nature - actually have unfolded during the last millenias. Leaving us all in a cul de sac...

When time allows I hope we may elaborate some more on the basis of the sound that form the word and the meaning of "mystery".
The first syllable "MY" is indeed a biggie within the sounds of our languages. So we may have some goodie in spare for the winter...

Good to back online!

Best regards

Then there is occuring a number of essential connotations (i.e. sounds as words AND ascociations ("meaning")). Like My-Sa(winking), My-Ga (mosq-i-to), My-Ra (ant), Myrra (Myrrh), My-Se (whey), My-Te (myth!). And it just keeps growing, multidimensionly, from there. A basic word from the latin pop-ups are my-cel-i-um.

"i-um" refers to the phrase "home", also in terms of our planet. Thus ium also reflects to an earthly "omni-presence".

Then "my-cell" reflects the most tiny, microscopic cells. Like my-cro/mi-cro is inside the visible nature, while ma-cro reflects the large, or overall, grand sum of visible nature.

Finally we check the whole word itself - and what it is used to describe - as of today. That takes us to the world of Biology, - where the mycelium is known to has an awful lot to do with the origin AND present basis of all biological life, as we know it...

(must be continued)

Best regards

Then there is occuring a number of essential connotations (i.e. sounds as words AND ascociations ("meaning")). Like My-Sa(winking), My-Ga (mosq-i-to), My-Ra (ant), Myrra (Myrrh), My-Se (whey), My-Te (myth!). And it just keeps growing, multidimensionly, from there. A basic word from the latin pop-ups are my-cel-i-um.

"i-um" refers to the phrase "home", also in terms of our planet. Thus ium also reflects to an earthly "omni-presence".

Then "my-cell" reflects the most tiny, microscopic cells. Like my-cro/mi-cro is inside the visible nature, while ma-cro reflects the large, or overall, grand sum of visible nature.

Finally we check the whole word itself - and what it is used to describe - as of today. That takes us to the world of Biology, - where the mycelium is known to has an awful lot to do with the origin AND present basis of all biological life, as we know it...

(must be continued)

Best regards

If You would care to read the article through - not to mention the "whole story" on www.bocksaga.de - it should become pretty clear exactly WHERE the old (primeval) arctical culture survived, evolving through an eon of time today called "ice-time".

The knowledge about this origin of the caicasian man, his languages and his culture obviously got lost - and modern etnology still can`t figure out from where the caucasian archetype orginiated.

But the recent findings in the Baltic area, explained by the ancient history of the newly documented Saga-material is actually giving a complete explanation, based on a completly scientifical step-stone logic.

Thanks to recent discoveries we do KNOW that modern man existed inside a pocket (rift) in the global ice-sheet, - between 3.000 - 5000 metres high - covering most all of North America, Northern Europe and Russia. Due to the ice sheet between Norway and Scotland the Gulf-stream was then forced eastwards, entering the Baltic Ocean, where it kept all of Gotland and the coastline of Finland ICE-FREE, while mainland Denmark, Germany, Poland and Russia was still covered by the glacier.

Only during the last 8-10 years (!) have we learned to KNOW that there actually existed human beeings inside this pocket in the ice. So far archeologists and geologists have detected 280.000 years old traces from this human culture, from the southern coast of Finland, - exactly where the Gulf stream once used to bounce it warm water...

Based on the old folklore tradition,the mentioned family-saga is a
source based on entirely different qualities than rumours, "qualified guesswork" or optimistic "creativity".

This information is a part of an age old, - and still new source on the Nordic history, going much more than 10.000 years back in time.

Consequently it reflects back through Ice-time (called Alt-land-is-period) and the following period, generally known as the "stone-age", beginning quite exactly 10.000 yrs ago, as the arctic population started spreding from the Baltics (with their "AsHel-culture") to the Black Sea/Mediterranean where the "HelAs-culture" was established about 9.200 yrs ago.

The Saga-material covers a lot more than this - like the basis of our present languages, our mythologies, etc. - all based on a still existing ancient and AUTHENTIC tradition of folklore and oral history-telling. Still today we find this original way of communicating essential and historical knowledge a few rural parts of the world - whereof some are now reknown as a part of the "World Heritage".

As with amazon indians, hopis, inuits, lapps, samojeds, ainus and aboriginees we also find remains of this tradition in the Northern countries, even in different languages(German/Scandinavian/Fenno-Ugrian).

And remember; the Nordic sagas - covering the same ancient stories - have been found within different etnic and linguistical groups, proving beyond doubt that they reflect a common, ancient reality of human history and culture.

Today this norse sagas can offer an OLD explanation of the context between the Meso-American, The Mediterranean and the Asian mythologies. It should give evident and obvious resons to consider (and perhaps reconsider) the value of the millenium old Sagas of the North.

Ironic ignorance is cheap - dumb arrogance even cheaper. The ones who care checking the whole story on the mentioned site (bocksaga.de) may return with some more valid reflections or qustions.

I have only begun to read your reference site but I need to have more encouragement to continue.

"The official experts at the Finnish Department of Museums and Sites still do not want to even touch this highly "controversial" story or the the extraordinary cave-system information. Instead they somewhat "fanatically" keep their official line of arguments founded in1984/85 that "Mr. Bock's Saga with the mention of a large cave-system is based merely on Mr. Bock's "fantastic fantasies". Thus, thanks to bureaucratic arrogance and scientific ignorance, it still lays uncovered: the oldest treasury chambers of the ancient, arctic kingdoms known to man, which have been alluded to as "The Kingdom of Oden" from the old Norse sagas."

Is there going to be more than spending $500,000 and giving up having found ... what exactly? Possibly an entrance to something?

Is this supposed to be legend or fact?

Again, is this suggested as myth or fact.

Millions of generations would suggest multiples of 25 million years. Three million generations would put you in the time of the dinosaurs - long before humans.

And what language is Altlandis [sic] supposed to be? English?

"The Norwegian Sea and the Gulf Stream are formed

The Earth’s appearance has varied throughout its history. The size and shape, both on land at sea, have changed because of the continental drift. 165 million years ago, the regions that today include America, Africa, Greenland and parts of Western Europe we joined in one huge continent. The Atlantic Ocean was formed trough a gradual breaking up of this continent. The northernmost parts of the Atlantic Ocean, the Norwegian Sea and the Greenland Sea have developed throughout the last 50 million years. The climate was considerably warmer than it is today, and the forerunners of the Gulf Stream in this "young" ocean were subtropical ocean currents. It is believed that an ocean circulation such as the one we have today was first established between 10 and 20 million years ago, when a subsidence in the region between Iceland and the Faeroe Islands caused the ocean to became deeper there. This provided an opportunity for balancing the warm water carried into the Norwegian Sea with outflowing deep water and the surface water of the East Greenland Current (Figure 1)."

That will do for a start.

To be minuitly exact - there is still NO answers to any of the above questions. But in our day and age it just happens that we are about aproaching all of the significances nessecary to frame the answers to theese questions.

If we want to lead a sensible and productive dialog of qustions/answers its vital that we may keep ONE topic in focus - at the time. A higly skilled American teacher I studied by genuinly reminded his students about this by the parafrase: "Be wise - or be otherwise".

THE TOPIC
Since I have focused the question of A Atlantis, or a "primary culture", existing before historical time - I permitted myself to refer to the site www.bocksaga.de where there is a column called "Altlandis". The rest of the content of this and its related web-sites may be highly interesting - but it is beside the framework of the article on top of this page.

The case is simply this; The descriptions of a "Atlantic Society & Culture" is clearly found within the Norse mythologies, specifically those of the famous poem "Voluspaa" (a oral tradition written down first time in the 11th century, and thus not lost). Further descriptions of an "Atlantean Civilisation" in the north is found in the more famous "Oera Linda Boek", a written history from the 7th century found in Groeningen, Holland - being the basis for Robert Scruttons well-known book "The Other Atlantis", published in the 1970-ties.

OLD AS NEW SCIENCE
To the learned Scandinavian it is also a well-known fact that the leading authority withing Swedens Academia during the 17th century; Prof. Olof Rudbeck sharply and exstensivly claimed that the "Atlantean Culture" of the earliest, historical Scandinavians where the basis of the Mediterranean legend of Atlantis. Conslusivly Rubeck found that "Atlantis" where in fact the primeval basis of the Scandinavian culture...!

But not before 1984/85 did we get a further explanation of this issue - when a FINNISH source of information (from the Fenno-Ugric language and culture) could refer to an age-old family-saga, actually explaining the congurence of "ice-time" and "Alt-land-is-time".

However much one turn this historical/mythological information up or down or around - it is NOT possible to dismay it. At least not before one understands the nature of this information and the realms of its sources.

THE SOURCE
Today we may dismay an old tradition because we find it "old-fashioned", "outdated" or not suitable in our techologic ("modern")reality. But within the historical research we have to acknowledge the historical and cultural information given to us by the magnitude of similar traditions from the old cultures of the world, such as the old Nordic or Norse/Indo-European culture.

Some day - as our arctical herritage gets better known - do we possibly understand that even Santa Claus, as well as Christmas itself, actually is based on traditions reflecting customs and realities of our very own anchestors life, culture and history.

So we`re back to the web-site www.bocksaga.de or www.bocksaga.com for a closer and more objective look. This time it is important to "read to reflect", rather than "read to react".

NO EASY-QUICK
I wrote the above because I tend to believe that anyone who cares to really reflect rather than react on theese matters would be in majority in this forum. Since I am getting to old to respond upon quick crack-down "analyzis", cheap contrafeit quotes, skillfull irony or intentional misunderstandings I hope the reflections on this peculiar issue may lead to a reflected discussion - rather than a stigmata between different "opinions", as if we where priests or ditto wannabes from different religions...

I try to behave rationally and I trust others to do the same. If in doubt; I ASK rather than state. If I DO understand or get somewhat enligthed I may have something to add or subtract. But I am not here with the aim to prove that anyone is wrong. Thus I dismiss the intent on putting down myself and others with nitty-gritty harrasments or airy-fairy comparisons. I am here to simply tell about the mentioned sources - and their possible implications.

Now if a majority of oceanic geologists have found it likely ("most likely") that the Gulf Stream appeared about 50 million years ago it coincide impressingly well with the statement of the Saga-material, telling that the Alt-land-is-period ("ice-time") started just about 50 million years ago. Now; which of theese sources should we trust - and which one to distrust?!

Moreover the Sagas tells that the ice-time started with a cataclysm, where a large part of the earths water evporated, to collect as damp around the poles - before it condensed and became two enormous ice-caps covering the northern resp. the southern pole-areas.

Meanwhile the Gulf-stream went over the Atlantic, hitting Biscaya - rocketting through the English Channel into the Oslo Fjord Area - where "the warm waves" could pass through "Ginnugagap" (a rift in the enormous icecap) entering the Baltic Ocean where the hot water hit the bottom of the Finish Bay - to circulate in front of the Finish archipelago.

SCIENCTIFIC PROOF?
Now; there is nothing in our knowledge about the extent of the northern ice-cap that contradicts the explanations of the saga-material - but quite the oposite! During the last 15 years it has become known that the massive ice-cap (3-5000 metres thick!) covered all the northern hemisphere. In North America down to Virginia from where it extended straigth east through the Atlantic Ocean as far as the longitude of Greenland before it started to turn north reaching Ireland and the British Isles. Because the Gulfstream was pressing north - finally via Biscaya through the English Channel and into the Oslofjord; the ice over Scandinavia could not close completly - and thus a rift was kept open. (The sagas calls it "Ginnungagap"; "The Giving-Youth-Gap"..!) Along this rift the stream kept bringing warm water from the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of Finland.

Still the rest of the isles, as well as the North Sea and whole Eurasian continent (down to the Alps and the Caucasian and Himalayan mountains) where covered by the northern ice-cap. And still today we may see the geologial, climatical and biological border between the arctical and the tropical hemispheres.

As far as I know there is still nothing found withing our natural sciences that really contradict this saga-material. As for the geology of the North Atlantic and the Fenno-Scandia it tends to support the folkore material.

VIEWS OR FACTS
Different scientists tend to have different opinions, especially on major questions within the different professions. Thus we all need critical views to fuel the prosess that ultimately gives us the "plain truth".
And as we want to be critical to any new source of information about major questions about our own history - we need to be likewise critical to the review of the geologists stating the "age and the development" of the Gulf-stream. Keep in mind that far from all geologists share the same view on that topic - and be utterly aware about the simple fact that "scientific truths" seem to be more and more shortlived.

HOW OLD IS OLD?
What is the reality behind the bocksaga statement of 50 million 10.020 years ago since the beginning of the "Alt-land-is-period"?! Is it possible that a highly spiritual or intelectual culture could evolve in this isolated existence - as they just about could survive ice-time? May Fenno-Scandia be the area where an isolated group of people had to endure that enormous time-span - evolving mentally and intectually - as well as physically; from tropicals man to articals? Since the artical ("caucasian") man obviously exists; What peculiar circumstances was present - and how many generations did it take before an isolated branch of mankind could evolve; from a group of full-blooded tropicals to a bunch of pigmentless palefaces?!

They must have been isolated. For a very long time. According to the Bocksaga that happened as the ice-time covered the whole northern hemisphere - accept from the Baltic Ocean, with the south-coast of Finland and the Island of Gotland free of ice.

LONG TIME
We have another problem along the same line; How can we not compare the Mayan, the Norse and the Vedic time-frames - all originating from an ancient tradition of "royal story-tellers". And how should we relate theese information with geological estimates of modern time? May we trust a certain information as a fact if ALL theese sources align in the same conclusion?

Today isotope-technology is able to define time technically correct. But this technology is brand new to the historic discussion - and it has no less than revolutionized the scientific value of modern archeology. Now - the paradox is that the better scientific tools we have - the more indications and (even) proofs have occured to support the main-lines in the old folklore traditions. Even "legends" - such as the story about Atlantis" - is now about to be scientifically proved...

OLD SOURCE - NEW SURPRISE
It should be quite obvious that the sources and the stories I am refering to are NEW to most people debating Atlantis. I do understand that such scientific surprises very rarely occur - that being in science or culture. And this normality, or conservatism, is exactly the reason why the overall majority of established science refutes the whole "Atlantis-legend" as mere dream-work. But now the surprise is here - for all of us - just to be understood and enjoyed!

Furthermore; If this information is anywhere CLOSE to a historical (scientifical) truth we better hold this saga close to our eyes - and up against the sun - for further investigation, research and debate. The Finnish saga explains that - by the support of simple archeological excavations - may this ancient, oral tradition give the first conslusive proofs of the legendary culture of "Atlantis". May it than matter exactly WHERE this proofs are actually found?!

In what area are you promoting tourist attraction?

LEGEND AND REALITY
It should be evident that the "Legend of Atlantis" really needs a very sincere and (perhaps extraorinary) objectivity and clear-mindedness. Especially if we - with this "special interest" - want to move our scientific communities to attend the topic with a more sincere objectivity.

Though I am pretty sure that we have to bring some new and undeniable points to the discussion - hopefully backed up by concrete EVIDENCE, - as well as strong indications and clear questions.

The majority of established historians seems to be benefitting by hiding (out!?!) - in beuraucratic institutions with a prestige- or profitt-minded management, always keeping a defensive ("sceptic") attitude towards inovative issues like ours. Thus I believe that forums like this website is really needed to attend, describe and even prove the significance of the Atlantis-question. Given the meek (but not humble) treatment theese questions have begot from the "scientific historians" it seems unavoidable that "alternative sciencists" and autodidacts must do the hardwork needed to shed apropriate ligth on theese puzzles, riddles and questions. Seen in an existential perspective it may seem that theese are key-questions to our origin and our evolution. As our atomic age revolves it`s obvious that we are quickly aproaching a period of cultural flux - as a historical intermediate when we really will NEED to asses, solve and answer this basic questions - in order to keep our perspective as human beeings...

That is why I (personally) feel so encouraged when people with a real and good intellect engage and become eager adressing theese questions.

OUT OF AFRICA?
Now; what do we really know about the population that once resided in the BALTIC AREA during (minimum) 280.000 years, until the icetime ended?
Not much, - from the Finish National Board of Antiqueties - we just learned that this population DID exist, until it disapeared just before the end of ice-time, approx. 10.000 years ago. (See:www.nba.fi/wolfcave)

A recent survey within the White Sea-area have shown that an artic population ("most likely modern human beings") used to visit the White Sea - for seasonal hunting and fishing, and "possibly more permanent living" - FROM around 40.000 years ago. (See: The Norwegian/Russian "Pechora- project", presented in "Nature", Sept, 2001. (www.nature/pechora)

The most astonishing facts arrivng from the Pechora-project is that:
A. The Baltic Ocean and the White Sea was ice-free (and connected) much more than 40.000 yrs ago.
B. That modern man have lived in the high north already at that time. According to "established science" this was just about corresponding to the age of modern man in Europe, just arriving from Africa via Trans-Caucasia...!

Now we may just ask:
1. How can we explain the development of the highly specialized arctical humans - able to exist and even expand in the extreme arctical climate - just a few years after leaving the African coco-nuts and the bambo-huts? (How would todays Bantus, Tuareks or Amazone-indians survive on the, say, NORTHERN tip of todays Greenland?!)
Any suggestions???

2. As the Baltic Ocean and the White Sea was connected - where today are the Seas of Ladoga & Onega - the whole Fenno-Scandian Penninsula would actually be an ISLAND. More than 90% of the area would be covered in ice, - but along the coast-lines we find traces of an pre-historic, arctical human beeing.

ESCAPING A MOVING GLACIER
Another point to this is the nature of the events that made an end to ice-time. From Scandinavian geology we know that the largest part of the ice-cap did not melt down - but actually slided down to the North Sea and the Atlantic Ocean in the south and west, - and the Baltic Ocean to the south/east. Today we know that the enourmous glaciers moved from the high mountains to the oceans at the SPEED of 16-20 km a year.

3. A small group of articals - living in the Baltic area - evidently escaped destinction as the enourmous icemasses evidently pushed over and crushed the livelyhood along the coastlines of Fenno-Scandia.

Thus the preboreal populations of Fenno-Scandia was obviously experiencing a "cataclysm"; as the enormous sheets of frozen water started moving; destroying evrything on its way and even polishing the whole landscape of Finland and Scandinavia.

"ELLIVAAGOR" - THE LIFE SAVER
According to C-14 tests this cataclysm happened between 10.000 to 10.700 years ago. In this period there would be impossible to live anywhere in the Northern Hemisphere, accept from Southern England that have remained ice-free throughout the entire ice-time. There is a gulf-stream needed to have done that...

Though, the geological surveys of the western coast of Friesland, Holstein and Jutland (mainland Denmark) shows that "sub-tropical corall" grew along the English Channel up to the northern coasts of Denmark, until about 50 mill. years ago. Thereafter another corall, able to grow in "sub-arctical" water took over, until it ceased some 11.-12.000 years ago.

Even as far north as the inner Oslo Bay area do we find small areas that have - beyond doubst - been ice-free, throughout the entire ice-time. Moreover we find the same phenomenon in the Baltic Ocean itself, - where the large island of GOTLAND, consisting of old corall-chalck, obviously had been KEPT free of ice (by a Gulf Stream) during the ENTIRE ice-time.

NOT MICE
But on the mainlands all around the North Sea and the Baltic Ocean the up to 3000 metres thick ice-cap dwelled - keeping the winters dark, cold and long and the days of summer short and few. The norse epic "Voluspaa" refers to this as the "Finbull-winter", where "Ellivaagor" ("fired waves") came through "Ginnungagap" and - along with; "Sun shine from South; made the Stone warm, made the Green grow".

By the way; The "Voluspaa" entitle he original norsemen "Aser". One verse even explain how they once had to escape their homeyard ("Asgard") to survive at "NOA-tun"; meaning the "The Yard of Noa" - before returning home to Hel, "The Whole" (i.e. "The Hol-y"/"The Hol-i-stic").

NOT "GODS" - JUST PEOPLE.
Today we may understand "Voluspaa" and other sagas and legends as short versions of a long and ancient saga about the arctical people. Which is quite the contrary to the deceit, distortons and abstactions that still color our basic comprehension of our historical past. Sins like this was committed by an emperial religion of the 13th and 14th century - who completly changed, re-defined and rewrote most of the norse texts. Since then the comprehension of the etnic origin and cultural background of the Norsemen have become "Brute People with the Aser as a primitive Superstition of the Headon Gods".

Thus the true history of the Nordic and the Eurasian cultures was conquered, outrooted and submerged, to fit with the Latin academia of the religious Rome.

FAST AND SWIFT...
From the survival of a relativly small group - we can see that artical man is appearing in Sweden and Norway already 9.900 year ago. Just a few generations and some 500 years later we find permanent populations ALL OVER the Fenno-Scandian area.

At this time the land was completly bare - only mountains, rocks, sand and clay to be seen. And beaches, fjords and bays - with rivers, lakes and sweetwater; "as long as the eye could see..."

This primary arctical population evidently lived by fishing, - and they where already building sophisticated dog-sledges, river-boats, ocean-boats, fishing-nets and other nesseceties - traveling the coastlines and oceans.

Today Scandinavian archaeology bear witness to artical man appearing 9.900 years ago, whereafter he spread with an incredible speed - all over the northern hemisphere. This first generation of norsemen must already have been "extremly well fit, highly organised and incredibly well prepared to live, flourish and swiftly expanding on a naked landscape, under a rather extreme arctic winter. Further they must have been higly skilled and very well organised to perform this imediate and swift expension.

...FAR AND WIDE
Soon they stretched all the way to Ireland, Orkney and Feroe Island (at latest 6.000 years BP). They probably also reached Greenland and America already that time.
A similar development can be seen towards the east, especially in the period called the "Climatical Optimum" 8000-3000 years ago, when the middle temperature where 2,5-2.8 Celsius-degrees warmer than today.

Thus, the recently discovered Kennewick Man, probably a Caucasian about 9.200 years old, could have reached the Colorado-river both from the North-Atlantic and the northern rivers of Cananda - as from Asia and the Bering-streigth.

EUROPE`s OLDEST PEOPLE...
Two ars ago the Univ. of Huddersfield, doing exstensive research on the European Genome, could publish the conslusion that the present European populations are - all - a mix of two separate imigrations; one very old, one quite new. Except from the Scandinavians, whose genome still is the same as it was 10.000 years ago, - and before. Consequently there was no agraric population over-running the former hunterer-gatherers, as the main theory have said for centuries. "It sems that the Scandinavians have adopted the agriculture, at an early stage, not permitting any farming imigrants", says genetican John Richards.

That being said - doesn`t Richards discovery imply that we may have to look again on our preconceptions of the origin of agriculture?

...AND THIR CULTURE
During the last 30 years we have found that the Norwegian West Coast have hosted a Boat-building fishing-population that is just about 10.000 years old.

Over the past 25 years the span and magnitude of this culture have become very well documented. There are already a number of small exhibitions and "experiential activities" for tourists - along the coast of western/northern Norway.

This summer the present norsemen complete a "national centre" - "NORVEG" - making the first large-scale presentation of Norways 10.000 year old coast-culture. The center is in Rorvik, 200 km north-west of Trondheim. Along with local historians like myself - this is becomming a centre of research and resume for our professional historians, as well as a highly regarded tourist-attraction.

TOURIST ATTRACTION
The 6000 islands outside Rorvik is stretching far out in the N-Atlantic, bearing witness about ancient boat-trafic and navigational landmarks, - clearly indicating - though not conclusivly prooving - that this extraordinary archipelago was a key-area for the first Scandinavians, not only converning fishing, but also for oceanic travels towards the west.

According to the oldest part of the Norse Sagas we have reason to believe that this boat-culture have populated both sides of the North-Atlantic. Thus a North Atlatic "Treaty" Organisation may have existed once before - in our "ancient past" . As a royal branch of the Scandinavian Sea-Kings - and their successors of sailors and fishermen...! Anyone especially interested may drop me a line on mail.

A FRESH VIEW ON THE OLD HORIZON
Now; all theese brand new, scientifical facts actually agreees with the statements given in the mentioned Family Saga already 20 years ago. Moreover theese facts may also explain parts of the Greek legends. As when Solon/Plato tells that the Atlanteans lived on "A very large Island", that got "overrun by water".

The release of the enormous masses of ice from Finland and Scandinavia was hitting the ocean simultaniously. This evidently created centuries of flooding, substatially hightening the ocean level. A similar cause/consequence is now established to have flooded the Caspian Sea, The Black Sea and the Mediterranean, some 8.700+ years ago.

May we start with concluding that A Atlantis/Altlandis DID indeed exist?!
May I be allowed to focus on Fenno-Scandinavia - during ice-time divided from Russia by the ocean - to candidate for the "enormous island" , "far out in the ocean, outside the Pillars of Hercules"?
And; may the 10.000 years old boats - found within the arctical populations - bear witness to the "Boat People" - reaching Gibraltar and Crete already some 9.500-10.000 years ago?

[This message has been edited by Boreas (edited 01-27-2004).]

Is the legend of "Atlantis", - as we know it from Plato - more accurate in describing the true Atlantis, - than is the old Norse Myths?

Could it be that the story-keepers in the Mediterranean area mixed or blended the rather vague memory of Atlantis, with the similarly vague (and "legendary") stories about Paradise?

According to the Bocksaga the origin of Mankind was evolving from the first family of Man, - from where all human beings descend. This happened during a period refered to as Paradise-time, when the Planet was perpendicular to the sun and the whole ball was tropical/subtropical.

As the population grew, the first family made a organisation to govern the growing family; where the first son became the (nature-chosen) King, his 10 brothers became the Kings Council, - and the 12th brother became the new breeder of the family.

Thus we got the first King of the planet. Now his 12th brother started to bred more than 12 sons/daugthers; establishing offsprings (called rabis) who went out to start new families and populations around the the first Ringland, called Oden - or "Eden"/"Edon".

As the Rabis established new ringlands, theese where populated and governed by their very sons and daugthers, who in turn also got children, who also had the rigth to make children. Thus the King on top of the globe enlarged the Kingdom of Man, through the "Houses" of his Sons, who in turned created Earls with their Manors - where he created the Sirs (Serfs) who went to build and populate each Yard. The sefs sons though was not to perpetuate the "Seed of Life", creating a uncontrolable number of new people.

Consequently we had a five-step pyramidal structure - with the King is related to each and everyone in the Kingdom - through his sons, grandsons, and grand-grandsons. Thus, - from a certain point of view he became a forefather to all inhabitants. And as he descended in a straigth line from the very first man and woman this "Pater Familias" was commonly known as "Allfader" - "Father-of-All".

(Today that still remain in the antique stories of "The Good/God Al-migthy", while "The Lord" actually used to refer to the Landlords, i.e. the Earls and the Rabis. "All-a" though, is seemingly clear.)

During Paradise we had a population slowly expanding - balancing against the surrounding nature, finding harmony with the universal forces. But - after a very long time some men and women got sloppy and ultimately altered the focus; away from "the good" to the indifferent, disobedient or the outrigth promiscous.

As "Man turned his face away from the Good Father" Paradise-time started to cease. It all ended with a cataclysmic finale, as the whole earth got shaken and stirred and by shockvawes, - as from an Asteroid. From the oceans we got tremendous amout of water evaporating - to assemble around the poles, where it condensed during a period of only three monts; to become two enormous ice-caps, one on each pole.

As said before, - within the ice-cap in the north there was a constant rift, that didn`t freeze up, - because of a stream of hot ocean-water, arriving from the cocking-pot of the Mexican Gulf (where the earths skin is at its thinnest) towards the east along the rotation of the globe itself, - to be pressed northwards by the deep-ocean polar-currence, - arriving with water still hot - at the Finish Bay (where the earths "skin" is at its thickest, i.e. oldest).

Inside this rift and "pocket" of the global ice-cap there was a few of the old royals surviving - even being able to recreate and regenerate themselves - becomming more and more fit to live in an arctic surrounding.

When this eonic period ended - the palewhite arcticals recreated their contact with their southern fellow beings - who had kept their basic structure as 10 Kingdoms around in the tropical world. As the arcticals arrived they managed to reconnect to all kingdoms, reflecting on the different languages - recreating basic words from sounds familiar to all men.

With the arrival of the arcticals in the tropics, the history of the Alt-land-is was fresh on the streets, aprox. 9.500 years ago. But today we can only see the fragments of theese news, - as the true story about us have been violated, altered, twisted, surpressed, falsified and basically forgotten. But still, - around the globe we may find parts or fragments reflecting theese most dramatic periods in the history of Mankind.

But not before our day and age are we able to conduct a free and thorough research into theese matters, with the nucleid techniques and tests just made avaliable through modern science.

In this retrospect we should not look to fast or hard at the discrepancies that may exist between the only sources existing that may trace us back to find, understand and even recover the lost stories about our ancient ancestors.

vegas! and i hear they have great travel deals. so pack up the family and come on down. behold the splendor!

This is born out time and time again in today's world. Brown eyed brown haired couples can produce blue eyed blond haired ofspring. The science of genetics has already proven this.

Before the pole shift, the ice cap was centered in the Hudson Bay. Conversely, the southern ice cap was centered in the Indian Ocean just off Antarctica.

Thus, the transantarctic mountains would give protection from the cold north winds, as Plato described, to Atlantis in Antarctica! Atlantis being near what we call Marie Byrd Land near had a mild climate.

Finland, would be mild, though not via the gulf stream, but by its relatively distant location from the ice cap of long ago.

The fact that more and more "underwater" cities are being discovered lends strength to the arguement that the ocean levels were 200 to 300 feet below current levels, as predicted by an ice cap in the Hudson Bay.

John

1.01 During the last 150 years travel, globetrotting and migrations have exploded. Today we have a multi-cultural world where individuals from all corners of the world meet and couple. With the present speed of cross-etnic breeding the blue-eyed, blond arctical specifics are dropping drastically.
Last year Scandinavian newspapers brougth headlines over repports from British Geneticans who predict that The Last Blonde female is going to be born about 35 years from now...

1.1 That clearly implies that the original mankind was born tropical, with brown eyes and dark complexion. In the tropical hemisphere we may find indigneous populations that still are ALL brown-eyed. Not only are the Meso-American Indians, but also the Africans, Asian indians, the Chinese, the Maori and the Aborigines.

1.12 Now if we where all brown-eyed; How could the blue-eyed mutation occur? How many generations would it take? And what pre-condition are demanded?!

1.2 Since brown-eyes always have been dominant - doesn`t it clearly suggest that the blue-eyed mutation must have developed IN ISOLATION - over a number of generations?
HOW many generations it will take is hopefully a question that the geneticians of today may be able to elaborate. Anyone knowing of some scientifical research on this matter?

1.3 ICE-TIME: The maximum spread of the ice-caps - and the sequences of the melting-preocesses are still not close to "conslusive knowledge". But we are getting closer all the time! The recent issue of the scientific journal "Nature" is bringing the last update. Just click to: www.naturemagazine.uk

2.0 Great web-site You refer to Atalante! The Italian professor Felice Vinci - a leading authority on Homeric Litterature - is incredibly spot on to something "really big" here. Funny that it conicides so incredibly well with the Finish Sagas...

2.1 In the oldest greek litterature we can also read about "Hyperborea" is the land at the northern rim of the world - inhabitated by the "peacefull, blissfull and longlived".

2.2 Moreover, a decade ago I heard present Greek historians (mythologists) explaining that Apollon where arriving to Olympos from the high North. A similar "legend" is said to be refered in India, where Hanuman where descending from the high north.

3.0 According to different myths - from around the globe - we hear of a "Golden Age" of Humankind, also refered to as the "Paradise-time".

3.1 After Paradise we got "the expeltion" as the paradisial culture broke up - to finally cease and terminate. This is explained in different ways by differnt traditions; but they all agree to the core of the matter - that "Man behaving studiply" was the initial cause of the downfall. The occurence of the enormous ice-caps was a cataclysmic consequence.

3.2 With glimmering glaciers and sparkling snowflakes the southern populations could talk of a "Silver Age", when a isolated group in the north experienced a horrible climate ("Fimbulwinter") - initiated a period of complete isolation, because all the land around them where entirely covered with ice. In Scandinavian tongue that is (still!) called "Alt-Land-is", which may answer the question about what language the Atlantens spoke...

3.3 After the fall of Paradise - and "The Kingdom of the Heavens" - we got a period of several kingdoms, also litterated as "The Kingdoms of The Earth". Now mankind developed into different brancehes within the different geographical parts. Still we find theese different races, cultures and languages. In the very east the Chineese still are Chineese, the Indians still Indians, - and so on until we find the Inkas at the western rim of the world.

3.4 All theese people are obviously more than 10.000 years old. And it is still a puzzle to me how "modern man" could have been developing into 10-12 completly different races/cultures and languages in just about 40.000 years - when ALL "modern man" are said to have been jumping out of Africa.

3.5 By the way: During the press-conference before the Sydney Olympic 2000 it was "released" that Australian scientists just have been finding remains of Aboriginals that more than 110.000 years old. Does that mean that the "Out of Africa-THEORY" (70-40.000 BP) is outdated - OR does it mean that the Aboriginal populations does not belong to "Homo Sapiens sapiens" ?!?

3.6 There are obviously great revisions to be made in our modern science. But - as I have been pointing to in this forum; there is now existing - in public - a source of information from the old traditions of Saga- and Story-telling that actually gives an outrigth, detailed and chronological explanation to the different periods of development that Mankind have gone through.
Now - WE may choose to ignore or even dismay this source - but that would be ignoring and dismaying our very own history...

4.0 The Bockström Family Saga gives a broad resume of our legendary, mythological and cultural history. As the isolated arctic population where able to keep the MEMORY of our common Paradise-time; as they survived the eonic ice-time in a local isolation.

4.1 As they finally survived "Alt-land-is-time" this Arctical "Boat-people" where able to reconnect with the different tropical kingdoms, as in the Mediterrenean about 9.500 years ago.
Here they got known as the "Atlanteans" explaining to come from the "Atlantis" - as they told their story about their hard time of isolation during the "Alt-land-is-period" (All-land-ice-period).

4.2 Included in their Sagas where the Atlanteans memory of Mans common origin and his ancient "high-culture", during Paradise-time.
Besides an extraordinary knowledge of the past the Atlanteans (Good men - Goods) should have brougth different "goods" to their tropical brethren, such as domestic plants and animals,as well as the technological prosessing of different metals for decoration and tool-making.

4.3 About 4.000-3.500 years ago we know that violence and war started to spread in Major Asia, soon reaching Persia, Greece and Egypt. Finanly also the Roman population got infected by "the culture of war".

4.31 From then on the historical treasures, the finer arts and the old tradions of knowledge and culture got distorted and destructed. Finally the entire classical culture, such as the Egyptian, Greek and Roman got destroyed, - as did their liberaries, their olympics and their academies.

4.32 At the end of "The Bronze Age" we may see how Solon and Plato where of the only few who was still able to keep A MEMORY of the very roots of the classical Greek-Roman culture.

4.4 As the famous Caesar organised criminals and bred murderers ("solidiers") into a horrendous army, tyrrany and the culture of war also broke into Europe. Thus the classical Celtic culture was splintered, but it still took a millenium before the most "peaceful corner of the world"; Scandinavia, was conquerred.

4.5 By the 16th century the culture of death and destruction had accelrated to enormous dimensions as even "The New World" - "Terra Fortunate" - was to be raped, masacred and plundered. And, - as we all know - this most unfortunate of all cultures are still ruling major parts of our world.

5.0 Only in the most remote parts of the Northern Hemisphere where the substantial knowledge from Antiquety able to survive the last two milleniums massive destruction of civilisations and culture. But the complete and historical Saga of Humanitys ancient Antiquety was only kept in the Boxström Family - the last remaining descendents from the ancient "Kingdom of Vinland" (Finland). According to the legends refered to in a present article in Atlantis Rising - about the Spanish conquistador De Soto - this Old Vinland was the "sacred place" where "The Hall of Records" are to be found. See also: www.bocksaga.de and look at the menu under: Leminkainen.

[This message has been edited by Boreas (edited 02-02-2004).]