November 13, 2003
The Island

Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between all those who dwell outside the pillars of Heracles and those who dwelt within them; this war I am now to describe. Of the combatants on the one side, the city of Athens was reported to have been the ruler and to have directed the contest; the combatants on the other side were led by the kings of the islands of Atlantis, which, as I was saying, once had an extent greater than that of Libya and Asia; and when afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to the ocean.
Plato, Critias

In all the volumes upon volumes written about the islands of Atlantis, it is often considered a magical place, practically a utopia. The wonders of its cities, the majesty and wealth of the nation, its council of kings, its divine foundation by Poseidon the Earth-Shaker...writers like Ignatius Donnelly and Lewis Spence believed in its reality, Donnelly seeing it as an Eden from whence human civilization spread across the world, influencing our development from Asia to the Americas, from Europe to Africa. One thing tends to be overlooked in our loving gaze, shot back through time to stare at the primordial island nation.

In Plato's original tales of Atlantis, the Timaeus and the Critias, Atlantis was the invader, the aggressor, the conqueror. It was the islands of Atlantis who stood for slavery and conquest, and the armies of the Athenians (coincidentally, Plato's home town) that defended the lands of the Mediterranean from the Atlantean conquerors. As the Timaeus puts it, So this host, being all gathered together, made an attempt on one occasion to enslave by a single onslaught both your country and ours and the whole of the territory within the straits. It was then, Solon, that the manhood of your city showed itself conspicious for valour and energy in the sight of all the world. In a very real way, Plato sought in the tale of Atlantis to provide a contrast between two vigorous, powerful, admirable nations, both blessed by patron gods, both strong in war, both beautiful to look at and seemingly virtuous and righteous. Describing the Atlanteans, Plato has Critias say They despised everything but virtue, not caring for their present state of life, and thinking lightly of the possession of gold and other property, which seemed only a burden to them; neither were they intoxicated by luxury; nor did wealth deprive them of their self control; but they were sober, and saw clearly that all these goods are increased by virtuous friendship with one another, and that by excessive zeal for them, and honor of them, the good of them is lost and friendship perishes with them. Unfortunately, as time passed, the Atlanteans forgot these lessons of Poseidon, and while on the outside they appeared as regal and magnificent as ever to those within the rot in the Atlantean state became apparent. The Critias breaks off just as Zeus, king of the gods, has noticed the decadence of the Atlanteans and is about to pass judgment on them, but the ultimate end of the tale is well known to us.

But afterwards there occurred portentous earthquakes and floods, and in one terrible day and night of storm the whole body of your warriors was swallowed up by the earth, and Atlantis likewise was swallowed up by the sea and vanished
Plato, Timaeus

So ends the original tale of Atlantis. It serves to warn the reader of the dangers of corruption, of caring too much for wealth, of turning away from the path of virtue. Atlantis dies, in Plato's version, because she became greedy and attacked the lands of the Mediterranean, hungry for conquest and harvested wealth. Part of the problem is that the Atlanteans sought to overthrow the allotment of the distribution of the earth as settled upon by the gods and claim control of the whole world in the name of Poseidon, who had no right to it. (Whether or not Poseidon supported this motion is not made clear by either of Plato's writings on the subject, but the fact is clear that Poseidon was the lord of the Oceans and of Earthquakes...and it was an earthquake that shook the land, and the ocean that dragged down Atlantis. Clearly he at least complied with Zeus' order to punish the Atlanteans for their sins.) Part of the problem was that they had grown base, corrupt, covetous and aggressive, using their military power to attempt to harvest the resources and slaves they sought. To him who had an eye to see, they began to appear base, and had lost the fairest of their precious gifts; but to those who had no eye to see the true happiness, they still appeared glorious and blessed at the very time when they were filled with unrighteous avarice and power. Plato's warning here is very clear: whatever one thinks of his Republic with its rigidly planned and almost hivelike structure, its unsavory eugenical ideas, its dictatorship of the wise, it is clear that in Atlantis Plato intends to show a state much like Athens, only wicked and debased by its lust for gold and power. Whether he had the Peloponnesian War in mind, and especially the actions of Athens in that war, is uncertain. Thucydides reports that People's feelings were generally very much on the side of the Spartans, especially as they proclaimed that their aim was the liberation of Hellas. States and individuals alike were enthusiastic to support them in every possible way, both in speech and in action, and everyone thought that unless he took a personal share in things the whole effort was being handicapped. So bitter was the general feeling against Athens, whether from those who wished to escape from her rule or from those who feared that they would come after it. Since Plato grew up in an Athens that had been humbled during that war, and was the student of Socrates who fought in that war, it is not hard to imagine that he looked back upon the behavior of Athens during that war when creating his metaphoric cities, his dark and light reflections, the dream Athens and the fallen ideal he named Atlantis.

In effect, Atlantis was a fascist state, in Plato's rendition, and all the tales of her wealth and glory, her orichalicum and gold and brass inlaid temples, her sacred bulls, her stadia-wide temple to Poseidon merely serve to illustrate the heights she climbed before she finally fell. Athens, the great city whose navy had helped hold off the Persian host, had through the course of the Peloponnesian War been reduced to a conquered state, her government blamed (probably far more than it deserved) and its very democracy called into question because she overreached herself, attempting to seize the treasury of the Delian League for her own use, believing herself to be the most free and most exceptional of Hellene cities. It is fair to say that she believed her way of life superior to the other allied states of Hellas, and would have liked to see them become more like her. (This is hardly to say she was unique in this, for Sparta carried similar opinions about her own power, and was even more harsh in the service of maintenance of that power. However, it is doubtful that Plato was thinking much of Sparta when he committed his Atlantis to writing.) Whatever the truth of the Atlantis legend...whether or not Solon truly heard it from Egyptian priests in the temple of Sais or not...in Plato's hands it was clearly a warning about greed, vanity and the overreaching of the powerful in an attempt to become more powerful, a signpost of the limits of power.

Plato's Atlantis was not a utopia, nor was it to be seen as a golden age. It was an object lesson that within the hearts of even those who live in the heart of luxury and glory, those with the best of intentions and a traditional respect for virtue and the good, one can find the closed fist that seeks to conquer others. It pays to recall that, when looking back at the islands of Atlantis.

And so now we shall look back, at some of the many thrown off from that first one, some sparks struck off of the legend as it rests on the anvil of the mind's eye.

Emanation One - The Islands Amidst The Ice

The earliest traces of Man in Europe have been found at sites near Vertesszolos in Hungary and at Isernia in Italy, both dated 850-700,000 years BC. At Isernia, Homo Erectus ate a varied diet from the fauna of a savannah-type countryside. At Terra Amata, on the beach near Nice, a human footprint 400,000 years old was found in hard-baked fireside clay. In 1987 a cache of fossilized human remains was discovered deep in a cave chamber at Atapuerca near Burgos in Spain.
Norman Davies, Europe: A History

The Mesolithic denotes the period following the end of the last Ice Age and prior to a predominantly farming economy. Both of these time boundaries are extremely fuzzy. The late-glacial interstadials (c. 13,000-12,000 BP) provided a 'false start' to the post-glacial during which hunter-gatherers adapted to warmer environments. They then had to re-adapt to a final period of intense cold before warmer conditions returned. Consequently, quite where one draws the line between the Palaeolithic and Mesolithic is to some extent arbitrary - a date of 10,000 BP is often chosen.
Barry Cunliffe, ed., The Oxford Illustrated Prehistory of Europe

13,000 BP is 13,000 years before the present, a dating convention used to jibe with various dating schemes used. Therefore, 13,000 BP is the same as 11,000 BC, and 10,000 BP = 8000 BC, more or less. This puts the Atlantis of Plato's story right in the middle of the period between the Palaeolithic and Mesolithic, when the Ice Age was ending and the glaciers receding and then returning, only to recede again. On the surface of it, it seems an odd time to imagine Atlantis. After all, we generally have a sense of life on the European continent at that time, and it hardly jibes with the descriptions of Plato's tale of Atlantis. Where, one might wonder, are the orichalichum lined cities, the vast armies, the elephants (one does hasten to point out that much of Europe's megafauna...the wooly rhinos, the cave lion, megaloceros the giant deer, the wooly mammoth...all died out right around this time as climate inconsistency raged) of great Atlantis? Where in the Atlantic could the island empire have thrived? There's no sign in the geological record for an island the size of Libya and Asia (really Asia Minor, but why quibble) out in the Atlantic. Ordinarily I might try and equivocate some explanation involving the British Isles or possible North America, both fine candidates for Atlantis...but let us try a slightly different tack. Looking at the Critias, we see the following lines: the combatants on the other side were led by the kings of the islands of Atlantis, which, as I was saying, once had an extent greater than that of Libya and Asia and in them is an interesting issue. It is not that any specific island called Atlantis had an extent greater than Libya and Asia, but rather that all together, the islands of Atlantis that had a greater extent. And since in Plato's account Solon himself is told that before their degeneration the Atlanteans held Libya all the way to Egypt and Europe all the way to Tunisia, they did indeed hold territory to a greater extent than Libya and Asia...namely, that territory that they would end up fighting to expand in the war itself. The islands of Atlantis themselves don't have to be larger than Libya and Asia; merely large enough to hold the city and plain described in Plato's tale. Now, while they certainly would have been most likely to have been without much in the way of metal, we can't really say with any certainty that they were totally without it: living isolated from the rest of Europe by the conditions of climate at the time as well as their island home, it's possible that they might have had bronze four thousand years or so earlier than the rest of Europe. Indeed, it may well be that Atlantean bronze was the metal that came down to us in legend as orichalicum, that mysterious reddish metal that adorned their citadels and temples. Perhaps it was heavily alloyed with copper, or tin from the nearby British Isles.

Imagine, if you will, a group of humans between 13,000 and 11,000 BC, as the Ice Age recedes and the climate warms. Having removed their neandertal competitors ten thousand years before, they find themselves in a Europe that is rapidly becoming warmer and more like the savannah it had been 380,000 years or so before. Free of the withering pressure of the terrible endless winter, they begin to expand into the Iberian Peninsula and develop a passable agrarian society. Isolated from competition, they may well have begun to expand out into Europe proper...when suddenly the ice returned, and they found themselves ill-equipped to deal with the savage ice. Being resourceful, they decided to take to the water, heading out to islands that had poked their way out of the Atlantic (possibly the Canary Islands or the Azores) and settle there, insulated by the ocean from the cold. However, this is merely a transitory cold period, and soon the ice sheets begin to retreat from Europe again...and the main island the settlers colonize begins to be submerged beneath the rising ocean. Being resourceful sorts, the settlers decide to fight water with earth, and begin to build large dikes and landfills to preserve their new home, in essence building up an artificial island atop the submerging peak. Their trips back to the mainland for fill (so similar to the mining operations on the island of Santorini that would lead to the excavation of Thera, which we will come back to later) eventually lead them to conflict with their Mediterranean neighbors, especially as they come also to attempt to seize new territory from their more primitive cousins. The orichalicum weapons and armor of the Atlanteans are far superior to the stone weapons of their rivals, but sheer numbers and also the continuing press of the ocean against their earthen walls lead to an eventual disaster...a war over precious resources strains the Atlantean infrastructure, and military buildup leaves insufficient resources dedicated to maintenance of the walls. Eventually Atlantis is met with disaster: an earthquake shatters several of her walls, and the restrained ocean comes flooding in, washing Atlantis away. For a time, the island itself becomes a mud shoal as the ocean pounds away at the fill she is built atop. The first human empire, a three thousand year old civilization, is lost with barely a trace save for old legends, along with the last specimens of European megafauna, the wooly mammoths and aurochs of Atlantis, that honored Poseidon the sea and earth god. It's not very hard to believe that people who existed on a manmade island in the Atlantic might worship the sea, nor that they would propitiate their god to prevent the earthquake they know would be their doom. Taking their metal techniques into their watery grave with them, it would be at least several thousand years before Europe would see bronze again, giving them time to forget it and for it to pass into legend as orichalicum.

Emanation Two - Is This An Island I See Before Me?

In morphic resonance theory, one of the most interesting concepts is that of the implicate order. In essence, the implicate order is a non place that exists outside of time and space as we understand it, and within the bounds of the implicate order lies the complied axioms of the habitual universe. In essence, the operating code for existence itself, as the universe progresses through time growing ever more complex...the laws of the universe themselves etch themselves into the implicate order as they are first manifested, and then are introjected back into the explicate universe each successive time they come into play. As axioms interpolate within the implicate order, they become related via association, and thus events and processes separated by vast gulfs of time or space as we experience such can be woven through each other within the implicate order itself. Think of it as metaphysical DNA.

I mention this because while the Atlantis tale is certainly an old one by this point (especially if one credits Plato's claim that Solon received it from Egyptian priests) it is hardly the only tale extant in Europe of mysterious lands to the west. The Celts had Tir Nan Og and Hy Breasil and the Islands to the West, where time flows differently and a man returning may well age to dust if he touches foot on his home soil. The Arthurian tales would speak of Avalon, where the King would lie sleeping until he was needed again. The Greeks, in addition to Atlantis itself, told tales of frigid Thule beyond the Hyperborean wilderness where all was ice and snow and the god Apollo's descendants dwelled amidst the wind. The Persian Magi told tales of Kah-i-farn, the magical place that would later be mentioned in the Song of Roland and be associated both with the Omphalos, the world-navel, but also the magical island of Calyferne. Out in the madness of the world ocean which girded the world like the serpent the Norse spoke of, lands rose and fell, vanished and appeared again. All of these concepts each creates an impression on the world, especially when focused upon by the morphic resonance of many minds assiduously eroding themselves into the implicate order, interpolating Avalon with Hy Breasil, Kah-i-farn with Thule...and all of these and more, Lemuria and Mu those recent inventions, all flowing into and out of Atlantis, the cherished dream of Spence and Donnelly, the inventions of Sir Thomas More and Francis Bacon flowing into the body of the island that is The Island, absorbing Utopia into itself, devouring Poe's City Beneath The Sea and Doyle's Sunken City as well. The implicate order is, above all, a place of implication.

Put another way, in another terminology, the Akashic Record can be edited. What was can be made malleable by concentrated will and sufficient mental force...just as Arthur Machen discovered when his fiction of ghost bowmen assisting the British soldiers in World War I took on a life of its own and became the Angel of Mons, sometimes belief trumps reality. Let's go further, then. Can belief recreate reality? Assume for a moment that Plato invented the Atlantis story out of whole cloth, that he made it up. Does that matter?

We know about time slips and precognition and postcognition, wherein the mind can be said to range back and forth through time. Can it do more than that? Can enough overlapping ideas, enough tales, enough pressure force the implicate order to express an idea, introject it back into what we would call the past? Remember, all times are one time and all places are one place in the non space of the implicate order. Did Plato invent Atlantis...and then, from time to time, past the pillars of Heracles, did Atlantis push itself into existence? Can an island have a tulpa form, a concentrated astral presence, a physical creation of the will? Imagine the ocean bucking and heaving, then parting as the Island came into view...existing until its slipped back into the implicate non-space again, as seemingly swallowed by the waves as a dream, until the next introjection, wherein new heroes could come and see the mysterious land where times runs differently, where great shaggy elephants still dwell, where the council of kings still lets aurochs run loose in the temples of the earthshaker. Perhaps if you go there and are not careful, when you return you will wither and die like Oisin, son of Fionn, who in spending three years among the Sidhe in the lands of the west was gone for hundreds of years...unstuck in time, it darts between the years, forward and back, timeless and yet always doomed to become unstuck again, drowning in the ocean of time.

There are more, of course...always more. I suspect I could keep writing about Atlantis for quite some time, and never run out of potential Atlantic variations. There is Thera in the Aegean, destroyed by the wrath of the fire inside the earth. There is Antarctica, its true outlines revealed by the Piri Reis map, which destroyed itself in some terrible cataclysm that shifted the very poles of the earth and buried Atlantis beneath a terrible sheet of ice. There is Atland of the North Sea, there is the Atlantis of the Sahara when the rains eroded the Sphinx and Oannes fell from the sky bearing lost knowledge, and the sunken island somewhere between the Black Sea and the Caspian that sent the ancestors of the nomads wandering. South America and Madagascar and Iceland have all be claimed as Atlantis. Perhaps they can't all be that legendary island....and perhaps they can. It pays to remember that Atlantis started off as one man's warning, and has become as many other things as an idea can possibly be. If nothing else, that seems to prove it has a power that makes it more than real. As long as we tell stories, it seems Atlantis can never really die.
Posted by Ezrael at November 13, 2003 11:19 PM

I had to ask the very same question when I started posting here too, so don't feel retarded.

When you click to "Post Reply" and the post writing screen comes up, if you look to the left side of the screen, you'll see a link that says "UBB Code is ON." Click on that link and it will show you the UBB (i.e., Ultimate Bulletin Board) Code for creating a quote box, boldtype, italics, hyperlinks, etc.

Warm Regards,

I don't get the point of your re-posting of Ezrael's posting of 11/13/03?

And how did what get into the book in 1934?

Back to work on my website. So long for now.

Warm Regards,

Erick:

quote:

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Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Sarmast say that he had collected topographical maps of the area from the NOAA and already knew that this particular feature was there before his book was even published? Sounds to me like he picked out that topographical feature and focused on it. Plato's description of the city of Atlantis includes the mention of city walls (although the height of the walls is never mentioned); Sarmast merely focused on the only feature resembling a wall on the whole of the eastern Med. seafloor. Topographical map data would have provided the coordinates of the feature.

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This is not correct, your timeline is not in correct sequence. He had the NOAA data and generated mapes from that data in his book.From this data, he identified what he thinks is Atlantis plain. He also went so far as to identify what he suspected is Acropolis hill. Long after this, but before the expedition, he secured higher resolution, updated data and generated maps from this data.It was from this data that the "wall" appearred. So, from the face of it, it looks like he did indeed pull a "Babe Ruth". These are the main possibilities left I see from this:[list]

Anyway, I must speak here.
German scientist apparently is guilty of what everyone is accusing Sarmast of-being: too hasty. His mud volcano statement came before Sarmast released the images showing the "wall".
How do you say oops in German?

This Santo guy leans heavily on the German guy. New twist here: he casts suspicion on Sarmast,bashes him ... then....
totally hedges his bet by claiming just in case Sarmast hits it, this would prove his theory right by proving atlantis is in Philipines (or somewhere)
You see Cyprus atlantis would obviously be a colony of the true atlantis.
He is everything he accuses Sarmast of being. (politician,etc)

this is great

[This message has been edited by Gilgamesh (edited 01-08-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Gilgamesh (edited 01-08-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Gilgamesh (edited 01-08-2005).]

Why are you so socially vulgar and offensive?

Recently Ramon (Opeysheart) entered the forum with the benign message that he had first-hand information that the higher resolution data from the Cyprus expedition would be delayed by a short time.

Instead of welcoming this new poster with his first-hand information, you resonded to him:

quote:

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IP: 68.111.234.118
Catastrophe
Member posted 01-03-2005 23:43 ÊÊÊ Ê ÊÊ
------------------------------------------------------------------------ http://members.aol.com/opeysheart/jesusonian.htm

What a coincidence!

Another Uranter spouting about Sarmast and expeditions delayed or results promised.

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Professor Arysio Santos in the statement quote:

quote:

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"...In my Atlantis book I discuss in detail – from both a scientific and a commonsensical traditional perspective – the various alternative proposals on Atlantis’ location which have been made since the times when Plato first lifted the veil on its reality and true identity with Paradise Lost.

And this of course includes recent alternative proposals such as Sarmast’s Cyprus; Hancock’s Antarctica; Montexano’s Spain; Collina-Girard’s Spartel; Collins’/Zelitsky’s Cuba; Blashford-Snell’s Bolivia and so on. I don’t yet disclose everything here or elsewhere, in order not to preempt my future publications and undertakings such as documentaries, researches, etc..

My naming of these authors does not mean I support this or that “discoverer” of the specific proposal. In fact, the way they are fighting among themselves well proves the low ethical standards often adopted by those mavericks. To be sincere, most of these locations – and perhaps all such – have been proposed ever since Classical antiquity itself.

The very fact that these authors generally fail to realize this fundamental issue irrefutably proves their ignorance of the subject they are attempting to lecture on. Had they done their homework more carefully, they would not only acknowledge the previous contributions, but would have avoided the previous mistakes which led to the doom of these proposals as well.

Again, my naming of these authors does not mean that they are all ripping my material, even though they generally based their own proposals on mine – for instance, sea level rise and the Ice Ages – without giving me any credit for this remarkable discovery. But this misbehaviour is probably due to their ignorance of scientific ethics and methodology, with which they are obviously unacquainted.

Had they bothered to search the vast scientific literature on the issue – as they would have done had they really researched the issue all by themselves as claimed, rather than just picked it up from me ready and perfect – they would readily have realized that I and no other made the great leap forward, certainly for the first time ever. Again, this omission of credit is tantamount to a confession that they did not research the issue on themselves or, even worse, that they are simply ripping me, period...."

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Some of these affirmations are false. Arysio Santôs affirms that all the mentioned authors (between whom is Georgeos Diaz-Montexano) copied (ripping) the idea hers on the "is level rise and the Ice Ages". This is false, because Georgeos Diaz-Montexano never has based its theories on "is level rise and the Ice Ages". Georgeos Diaz defends Atlantis Nêsos of the Chacolitihic and the Bronze Ages, that is to say, subsequent to "rise is level and the Ice Ages".

On the other hand, either Robert Sarmast is "no ripping" the ideas on "is level rise and the Ice Ages" to the professor Arysio Santôs, because these ideas or hypotheses exist from long before that the professor Arysio Santôs used them in its theory. Santôs also accuses Sarmast, to Collina-Girard, Hancock, Collins, Zelintsky, and Blashford-Snell of having "ripping" its ideas. All this is false and I think that we would have to sign all a manifesto to demonstrate that they are false accusations and later to publish it and to send it to the forum of the professor Arysio Santôs.

All Holy the mentioned theories are completely different from those from the professor Arysio, the hypothesis on "is level rise and the Ice Ages" is very previous to the same professor Santôs and in the theory of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano, this hypothesis as does not exist support argument or bases.

The theories of "are level rise and the Ice Ages" is old, but neither to go the more far, in 1994 J. W. Hawkins published several tests where rise associated the hypotheses on "is level and the Ice Ages" and the Platós Atlantis, whereas Arysio Santôs did not publish its first article after May of the 1998.

Many examples can be put and older of authors than and used the hypotheses on Atlantis and the "level rise the Ice Ages", and many others that appear as it bases on the theory of the professor Arysio Santôs, from long before.

Greetings of Elys.

------------------
Eliana García
Cádiz, Spain

quote:

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"...Atlantis was located in the “true Ocean” (alethinos Okeanos), which he contrasts to the puny Mediterranean Sea..."

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Is a serious error. Plato never used the "Okeanos" word. Plato only used words PELAGOS and PONTOS, but never "Okeanos".

Arysio Santôs has invented a Greek expression that does not exist in the Plato's Critias nor in the Timaeus.

Also it is possible that Arysio Santôs never has known texts Greek Plato.

Greetings of Elys.

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Eliana García
Cádiz, Spain

quote:

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"...Besides, how could the philosopher affirm that “a continent larger than Africa and Asia put together”..."

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Is another serious error. Plato never used the Continent word to talk about to Atlantis. Plato only used the Continent word (EPEIROS) to denominate to the Continent that before was the other islands (ALLAS NESOI), that were after passing Atlantis and the Strait of the Pillars Hercules. The Plato's Continent is Greenland or America.

Arysio Santôs has invented (once again) another Greek expression that does not exist in the Platós Critias nor in the Timaeus.

Greetings of Elys.

------------------
Eliana García
Cádiz, Spain

Another Uranter spouting about Sarmast and expeditions delayed or results promised.

can you explain this photo on the Sarmast website and how this information got into the Urantia papers in 1934:

http://www.discoveryofatlantis.com/EarlyDataImages/Pic_c.html

quote:

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73:3.4 The coast line of this land mass was considerably elevated, and the neck connecting with the mainland was only twenty-seven miles wide at the narrowest point.

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http://urantiabook.org/newbook/papers/p073.htm
.

quote:

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can you explain this photo on the Sarmast website and how this information got into the Urantia papers in 1934:

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I can honestly say that I can explain absolutely nothing about Robert Sarmast's theory (and resultant website) and especially the Urantia Book!

Robert has not kept it secret that he has an agenda of locating the supposed Eden described in the Urantia Book and the search for "Atlantis" seems to be his secondary goal - not his primary goal.

I'm not sure what disturbs me more...the fact that Robert Sarmast is looking for Atlantis on the floor of the Mediterranean Sea, or that his theory has actually received consideration. After all, he is looking for Atlantis at a depth of 1,600 meters! That's 4,800 feet below the current sea level! Give me a break! Its an insult to the world's collective intelligence. His attempts to tie it all in with the Urantia Book's "Eden" only compounds the insult.

Again, Absy, please don't confuse any of my arguments regarding science for an interest in the Urantia Book. As far as I'm concerned, the Urantia Book reads like a science fiction novel and was probably some kid's high school English writing assignment.

Regarding what the supposed "wall" actually is, I still have to stay with my original assessment, which was that it is a volcanic slope collapse feature. Consider this photo of a slope collapse on a small volcanic dome in Navka Planitia on the planet Venus.
http://www.solarviews.com/eng/venvolc.htm#collapse

Gee, look Absy, another submarine "wall." Better send Sarmast to investigate!
http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/03kickem/welcome.html

Well, back to work on my website.

Good luck with the website.

My money's on another brick in the wall.

And I think that little enigma may only be a few weeks away from confirmation.

Then we'll really see what the world's collective intelligence can muster.

Crow anyone?

.

As far as depth. This does fly in the face of conventional understanding. So, if proved true, it means conventional understanding will be significantly overhauled.

One interesting point. I know little re submarine geology, but I do know that the point we are discussing is a convergence of three separate plates-unusual area.

Now, WHAT IF , med was a couple of inland lakes way back when, much lower than the dammed off Atlantic. Dam is breached. Ocean pours in. Unbelievable amount of weight is added to this "seam" in the earths plates. Seam sinks. As it does, more water pours in causing it to sink some more, which causes more water to pour in.....

Problem with this model, is that this area is so unusual there is no like phenom to which to compare it. (as far as I know)

I wonder why?

quote from:http://milos.conferences.gr/index.php?id=2531

List of Submitted Abstracts
-as per 24.1.2005-

"The Geology of Gibraltar Strait and the Myth of Atlantis"
Jacques COLLINA-GIRARD, University Aix-Marseille I, France

"The Search of Atlantis in Cuba"
Andrew COLLINS, Historian, UK

"A Geographic Comparison of Plato's Atlantis and Ireland as a Test of the Megalithic Culture Hypothesis"
Ulf ERLINGSSON, Geologist, USA

"The Geography of Atlantis:Neither Allegorical Nor Exaggerated"
Rand FLEM-ATH, International Best Selling Author, Canada

"The Santorini Volcano: Geology and Atlantis Mythos"
Walter FRIEDRICH, University of Aarhus, Denmark

"Old and New Tools and Approaches in the Search of the Lost Land"
Michael FYTIKAS, Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, Greece and
George VOUGIOUKALAKIS, Institute of Geology and Mineral Exploration, Greece

"The Topos of Atlantis: Some Philosophical Insights"
Amihud GILEAD, University of Haifa, Israel

"Results of Russian Expeditions in Azoro-Gibraltar Tectonic Zone and Various Geophysical Model Atlantis Destruction"
Alexander GORODNITSKY, Shirshovs Oceanology Inst., Academy of Sciences, Russia

"Plato's Atlantis Tale III: Geographical Elements"
Rainer KUEHNE, Individual Researcher, Germany

"Palaeogeographic reconstructions of the Aegean. Was Atlantis on the doorstep of Athens?"
Kurt LAMBECK, The Australian National University, Australia

"The Constitution of Atlantis"
Manolis MIKROGIANNAKIS, University of Athens, Greece

"Dating of a Catastroph in the 12th century B.C, pre-hestoric Athens. Evidence from Platon's Critias"
Stavros PAPAMARINOPOULOS, University of Patras, Greece

"Platon's Phaeton and Homer's Phaethousa. Cometary Fragments in the 12th century B.C"
Stavros PAPAMARINOPOULOS, University of Patras, Greece

"Interpreting Myths; Catastrophism and New Catastrophism"
Spyros B. PAVLIDES and Alexandros CHATZIPETROS,
Aristotle University of Thessaloniki. Greece

"The Novelty of the Atlantis Myth in the Light of Freudian Interpretation"
Yair SCHLEIN, The College of Managment Academic Studies, Israel

"A Possible Asiatic Origin for Key Elements of Plato's Atlantis Story"
Robert SCHOCH, Boston University, USA

"The Deucalion Catastroph"
Emilio SPEDICATO, University of Bergamo, Italy

"Atlantis in Quisqueya"
Emilio SPEDICATO, University of Bergamo, Italy

quote:

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Erick Wright 1/14/05

"I'm not sure what disturbs me more...the fact that Robert Sarmast is looking for Atlantis on the floor of the Mediterranean Sea, or that his theory has actually received consideration. After all, he is looking for Atlantis at a depth of 1,600 meters! That's 4,800 feet below the current sea level! Give me a break! Its an insult to the world's collective intelligence."

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Robert Sarmast 2/16/05

"The images are trulyÊstartling and have caused us to pull back as a team and consider how to best proceed.Ê"........

"we have decided to keep the majority of the images confidential until the right time.Ê However, the global thirst for the results of the expedition has also compelled us to share at least a snapshot of why we are all so excited.Ê In the next few weeks a press release will be sent out with one image, revealing clear markings of manmade objects on the seafloor, a mile below.Ê "..........

" Plato is about to be vindicated,".....

Actually, I've been emailing Sarmast & Co. lately and they seem fairly certain that they have found something. Here is the last email I got from the group's press secretary:

quote:

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Hello Tina:

We're very happy to hear that you're enjoying Robert's work, he's always appreciative of support. Robert will probably post one image on the website when the time is right, which could be in a few weeks from what I understand. The rest will probably be published in his next book and upcoming documentary projects. I'll tell him about the forum you mentioned but he's fairly busy now running a company so I wouldn't count on it, sometimes we don't even hear from him.

Thanks again

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i've observed that you have a pretty fine mind, but there is something that is preventing you from recognizing truth. I'm not sure, but from reading some of your stuff, I think it has something to do with peer pressure and perhaps a tendency to rely too much on logic and too little on feeling and sensing. Something is out of balance with you preventing you from hearing the "still small voice" . just an observation erick, think nothing of it.

not michelins but definitely wheels and trust me, wheels have been around a long time and were used in atlantis 34,000 years ago.

it;s not too much of a jump from rolling logs and circular concentric circles and spinning pottery to the wheel.

"81:3.6 With the appearance of crude manufacture and beginning industry, commerce quickly became the most potent influence in the spread of cultural civilization. The opening up of the trade channels by land and by sea greatly facilitated travel and the mixing of cultures as well as the blending of civilizations. By 5000 B.C. the horse was in general use throughout civilized and semicivilized lands. These later races not only had the domesticated horse but also various sorts of wagons and chariots. Ages before, the wheel had been used, but now vehicles so equipped became universally employed both in commerce and war."

The chariot and the wheel were both introduced into ancient Egypt during Dynasty 15 (the Great Hyksos dynasty). The following link does not mention chariots and wheels, but does give a lot of information about Dynasty 15 and its dates. http://www.nemo.nu/ibisportal/0egyptintro/6egypt/index.htm

Georgeos claims that 1569 BC, which falls in the era of Dynasty 15, was an important date in the Atlantean war.

Egypt had no hieroglyphic names for horses or chariots before Dynasty 15. So if Plato is correct about these 2 items being prime Atlantean military elements, then Egypt could not have recorded any warfare of this nature before Dynasty 15.