posted 09-13-2003 14:29         

Erick you assume that the lag in building civilisation is due to the horrible climate during the Pleistocene ice ages. This happens to be my speciality now.

The rate at which the evidence grows that there was a mild climate in Siberia in the late Pleistocene is stunning. There is no scientific publication or it ends with unproven hypotheses and unexpected complication. The reason why humanity failed to build a decent civilisation can be twofold:

1. We have not discovered it yet or we don't accept the evidence of that (forbidden Archeology).

2. the rapid events that took place during the transitions form stadial to interstadial were too violent for civilisations to survive. the Mammoths didn't either. I content that those rapid fluctuations could be something else as global climate change.

posted 09-13-2003 16:39         

quote:

---

Mr. Wright, use your head, think, instead of going on your emotions. Tropical plants cannot endure long cold weather. They die, their roots rot and so does their very parishable seed. Yet we have plants, still growing, that date clear back to the Triassic and before. One good series of frosts, much less ice age conditions,and those plants would have been extinct. The Earth has always had warm zones, warm enough for tropicals to exist. You are wrong on this one.

---

Wrong about what? When did I ever argue that the earth was completely encased in ice, or that there was not any zones of warm climate on the earth? Try to slow down and actually read my posts and the articles written in the links I provided. Climatologists are pretty united on this one Brig and the evidence is fairly clear and it states that "for most of the past hundred thousand years the Earth's climate has been in flux, changing not gradually, or even incrementally, but violently and without warning."
_____________________________________________

Catastrophe,

Yes.
_____________________________________________

Ulf,

Yes, it is possible that some confusion may have arisen during the translation causing the numbers to be greatly overexaggerated. It is also possible that the numbers are "dead on right" considering that the Egyptians and the Greeks both had a measurement that was equal in length (i.e. Egyptian "khet en nuh" & Greek "schoilion").
How many other measurements did they have that were exactly the same?
_____________________________________________

Andre,

Long time no hear from! How have you been?

[quote]Erick you assume that the lag in building civilisation is due to the horrible climate during the Pleistocene ice ages.[/quote

Yes, at least partly - whether directly or indirectly. I believe I listed:

1.) Cultures during the Ice Age were only able to reach a certain level of refinement for the simple reason that they were forced to remain limited to the primitive ‘tribal’ social organization system. During the Ice Age, communities grew to no larger than 35-40 people because they found that the community was unable to sustain itself when it grew larger than that.

***direct response to adverse environment***

2.) Changes in the development of early modern man always seem to have accompanied, or run parallel with, a leap forward in stone tool and weapon technology. Advancements in technology, however, require one very important thing – leisure time! The fact that there was so very few advancements of technology in early modern man, serves to suggest that early modern man had very little (or none at all) leisure time - probably because he was too busy trying to just survive.

***Indirect result of adverse conditions***

Respectfully,

Erick

posted 09-13-2003 17:16         

However, this link disusses remains that are submerged in the Atlantic Ocean, near Salmedina Rocks, where the Romans had to build a lighthouse at Chipiona. http://www.chipiona.net/chipiona1/hist/hist_ai.html

posted 09-13-2003 18:54         

You have badly understood my arguments on 900 years before Solón or the one becomes that does not understand it. I believe that it would not be necessary to be no genius to include/understand perfectly, that never I have said that the Egyptians had arisen like civilization 900 years before Solón. My arguments only expose that it is very possible that finde Atlantis, that is to say, its collapse has happened 900 years before Solón or of Plato and not 9,000 years before. Of course that Egypt, and Atlantis existed before from long time. What I raise is that in the story of Plato two dates exist: the one of the origin of Atlantis, that could be 9,000 years before Solón that is, it does about 11,549 years B.P, approximately, and the one of the aim of Atlantis that could have been in the 900 before Solón, that is to say, 1,449 B.P., approximately. Therefore their irony using itself the Kennewick man, it does not have any sense and she is absurd.

posted 09-13-2003 23:36         

Good to see you again!

Erick, you quoted:

"Climatic changes by the end of the last Ice Age resulted in unusually high Nile water discharges around 13,000-12,000 B.P., creating exceptionally high floods. This ‘Wild Nile’ stage was caused by climatic conditions in sub-Saharan Africa, but in Egypt itself there was no local rainfall."

That does indeed occur on page 29 of "The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt".

It continues:

"One site that was out of reach of the catastrophic inundations of the Wild Nile was Makhadma-4, an example of the Afian industry (12,900-12,300 BC), located about 6m. above the modern floodplain, a little to the north of Qena. It was on the desert fringe, in a flat embayment resulting from the joinint of different wadi bottoms, and its rich array of fish remains include 68% Tilapia and 30% Clarias, the rest consisting of Barbus, Synodontis and Lates. The high amount of Tilapia and the small size of both Tilapia and Clarias indicate that fishing must have been practised rather late within the post-flood season. The fish must have been caught in shallow basins through which the fishers were able to wade. ... The expansion of the site demonstrates that the locality was repeatedly used over a long period."

Another point from "After the Ice Age"
ISBN 0 297 643185 front dust jacket:

"But these people live on the brink of seismic change - 10,000 years of climate change culminating in abrupt global warming that will usher in a fundamentally different human world." ... "'After the Ice Age' is the story of this momentous period: one in which a seemingly minor alteration in temperature could bring anything from the spread of lush woodland to apocalyptic floods - and one that contains the origins of civilisation itself."

And as for the mistake over 900 and 9000, as I have said before:

Oh, darn it - you mean Khufu only really wanted it one tenth this size".

posted 09-14-2003 01:50         

and Venus, as discussed here
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23713

edit for links again

posted 09-14-2003 01:53         

My point in questioning this:-

"So, right smack in the middle of the period of reduced (to no) occupation in the Nile Valley was right when Plato said that Egypt was founded by Neith. I’m sure that the books Catastrophe listed for you substantiate this material as well, possibly even elaborating upon it further."

... was not that I disagreed with some of what you said but I felt you were giving a slightly wrong impression which might lead people to believe it was 'cut and dried'.

For example, your quote concluded:

"Although this environmental change undoubtedly took place, it seems highly unlikely that the Nile Valley was entirely deserted at this date. It is more likely that the sites are simply covered by modern alluvial deposits, considering a narrowing of the floodplain and the normal location of sites on the fringe of the low desert."

Further, the two books by Toby Wilkinson cited both dealt with Badarian and post Badarian situations; not the time in question. One discusses the scenario (petroglyphs) when the Eastern Desert was more fertile and inhabited.

'After the Ice'discussion on Egypt is mostly limited to hunter-gatherers circa 20,000 to 11,000 BC although there is discussion on sheep and cattle in the Sahara circa 9,500 to 5,000 BC.

Thus the only book in which you might expect to (and probably will) find support is the remaining volume*.

Thus I do not think you should be SO sure in finding support in 'the books' I listed.

Indeed, if you take the 'Genesis of the Pharaohs' scenario, there was annual migration between the Nile valley and the Eastern desert. Here we are looking at 5000 to 3000 BC or 7000 to 5000 BP. which could be regarded as the origin of the later Egyptian culture. Indeed, much of the iconography survived e.g., ship petrographs.

Ed: Midant-Reynes, B. (2000). The prehistory of Egypt: From the first Egyptians to the first pharaohs.

"This book covers the prehistory of the Nile Valley from Nubia to the Mediterranean, during the period from the earliest hominid settlement, around 700,000 BC, to the beginnings of dynastic Egypt at the end of the fourth millennium BC. The author explores the prehistoric foundations of many of the cultural traditions of Pharaonic Egypt.
The book focuses primarily on the fifteen millennia from 18,000 to 3,000 BC"

posted 09-14-2003 02:16         

Don't forget (taking Narmer palette as an example):

"A straightforward historical interpretation of the monument is now generally considered to be unsophisticated and old-fashioned. Instead, it may be argued, the palette may commemerate the ritual re-enactment of an earlier military victory ... or may belong entirely within the realm of myth and symbol, conveying the omnipotence of the king without alluding to any specific historical incident."

"Early Dynastic Egypt" Toby Wilkinson p. 68.

Don't forget much 'literature' was never intended as history as we know it but as glorification of the monarch. See for example Ramses II's spin version of Kadesh.

posted 09-14-2003 02:31         

"... you assume that the lag in building civilisation is due to the horrible climate during the Pleistocene ice ages. This happens to be my speciality now"

Then I think you would enjoy "After the Ice".

Not discussing "what is an Ice Age"
Subtitled "A global human history 20,000 to 5,000 BC

Sections:
The beginning
Western Asia
Europe
The Americas
Greater Australia and East Asia
South Asia
Africa

Sample chapters:
1. The Birth of History (Global warming, archaeological evidence and human history).
2. The world at 20,000 BC
6. One thousand years of drought
13. Pioneers in Northern Lands(The recolonisation of northwest Europe 20,000 to 12,700 BC)
35. Across the arid zone (Hunter-gatherer adaptations to the central Australian desert 30,000 BC to AD 1966)
46. Baked fish by the Nile (Hunter-gatherers of North Africa and the Nile valley 20,000 to 11,000 BC).
Epilogue: 'The blessings of civilisation' (Past, present and future impacts of global warming on human history).

posted 09-14-2003 08:24         

http://www.moroccotime.com/geo_uk.htm <- the area of Atlantis.

Quote from Diodorus Siculus, Library of History ( ca 100 B.C ), translated by C.H. Oldfather regarding the name "Gadeira".

The Phoenicians, who from ancient times on made voyages continually for purposes of trade, planted many colonies troughout Libya and not a few as well in the western parts of Europe. And since their ventures turned out according to their expectations, they amassed great wealth and essayed to voyage beyond the Pillars of Heracles into the sea which men call the ocean. And, first of all, upon the Straits itself by the Pillars they founded a city on the shores of Europe and since the land formed a peninsula they called the city Gadeira.

Regarding the other islands and the opposite continent beyond the real ocean, I think this is what many peoples in the Mediterranean heard rumours about in the time of Plato and earlier.

Quote from Diodorus Siculus, Library of History ( ca 100 B.C ), translated by C.H. Oldfather regarding the land beyond the Atlantic ocean.

For there lies out in the deep of Libya an island of considerable size, and situated as it is in the ocean it is distant from Libya a voyage of a number of days to the west.

Its land is fruitful, much of it being mountainous and not a little being a level plain of surpassing beauty. Through it flow navigable rivers.

In ancient times this island remained undiscovered because of its distance from the entire inhabited world, but it was discovered at a later period for the following reason. The Phoenicians, who from ancient times on made voyages continually for purposes of trade, planted many colonies throughout Libya and not a few as well in the western parts of Europe.

The Phoenicians, then, while exploring the coast outside the Pillars for the reasons we have stated and while sailing along the shore of Libya, were driven by strong winds a great distance out into the ocean. And after being storm-tossed for many days they were carried ashore on the island we mentioned above, and when they had observed its felicity and nature they caused it to be known to all men.

I'm quite sure that people had heard rumours about this island all over the Mediterranean.( Herodotus, Diodorus, Egyptian priests, Solon and Plato for example ).
It was incorporated in the legend of Atlantis because you needed to pass Atlantis to get to this distant island.

( a way for Plato to describe the location of Atlantis )

Quote from Plato's Timaeus translated by Benjawin Jowett
and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea,

while sailing along the shore of Libya,

Atlantis = the outermost part of Libya. The Atlantic coast of Libya. This is also where Diodorus and Herodotus placed the Atlanteans. The other islands is the Canary Islands.

The distant island of great size = South America. The easiest and fastest way to get to America from Gibraltar is to pass Morocco and the Canary Islands and follow the Canary Stream.

Atlantis was the way to other islands you could pass to the opposite continent from

Note: Im not saying that the islands they ruled ( the islands in the open sea ) is the Canary Islands.

Plato very clearly thought that Atlantis was an island. The outermost part/cape of the island of Atlantis was near/facing the region of Gades. It was not the region of Gades itself. If we change this to the Egyptian sealand/coastland, the only candidate would be the cape/outermost part of Morocco. ( northen Morocco at Tangier )

[114b] who had for his portion the extremity of the island near the pillars of Heracles up to the part of the country now called Gadeira after the name of that region, was Eumelus in Greek, but in the native tongue Gadeirus,--which fact may have given its title to the country.

after the name of that region
The region = the Straits of Gibraltar.

Remember: which fact may have given its title to the country.

Quote Erick Wright: Certainly, as one of the first-born set of twins, Gadeirus in inextricably and inexorably linked to Atlas, but, again, Plato did not see fit to place any real amount of emphasis upon Gadeirus, so why do so many people in this forum? Atlas was the one to whom so much attention and descriptive detail was afforded, and yet, this is seemingly ignored by individuals trained in the school of logic.

I agree

Quote Dr. Rainer W. Kühne:
I think that Morocco could have been a part of Atlantis or the Tartessian kingdom. The great plain of Atlantis, however, lay at a south coast (Crit. 118a-b), so southern Spain fits better than Morocco, Tunisia, or Algeria.

Morocco, in this case, fits Plato's description just as fine as Spain.

Quote from translation in Perseus · Tufts Digital Library

In the first place, then, according to the account, the whole region rose sheer out of the sea to a great height, but the part about the city was all a smooth plain, enclosing it round about, and being itself encircled by mountains which stretched as far as to the sea; and this plain had a level/flat/smooth surface and was as a whole rectangular in shape, being 3000 stades long on either side and 2000 stades wide at its center, reckoning upwards from the sea. And this region, all along the island, faced/looked in the direction of the South/South West Wind and was sheltered from the North.

noton = the south or south-west wind
pros = in the direction of

Note that he said "in the direction of", he didnt say "south coast."

In the direction of the south/south-west wind.

I hope the structures ( the satellite photos ) in Andalusia is something very interesting, and if it is the capital city of Atlantis, it is very sad that Plato have failed so totally in his narrative.

Regards,

Jonas Bergman

posted 09-14-2003 09:33         

Warm Greetings of Georgeos.

posted 09-14-2003 16:19         

What you write about the old proto-Iberian Indalo-symbol, which can be found in old rock carvings in Spain, is very interesting.
You are quite right that in Andalusia the archaeological excavations are just in the beginning, and we can wait for very interesting findings in the future.
But in your beautiful satellite photos from different "geoglyphs" you demonstrate us very well in form of a joke how easy it is to come to erroneous interpretations of unknown surface structures, when looking to satellite pictures. A man who knows nothing about circular irrigation systems or highway construction may really think to see mysterious concentric circles or snakes with a highway exit as head or as a celtic cross. But in spite of that with the necessary caution the aerial photography or satellite photography may be a most important instrument for archaeological investigation.

Greetings from Ulf

posted 09-15-2003 03:48         

thank you very much for the satellite photos. They are excellent. I will study them in detail.

My preceding location was definitely wrong. I agree now with Ulf, the position is slightly north of the merging of the Madre de las Marismas del Rocio and Cano de Guadiamar.

Dear Ulf,

unfortunately, I am unsuccessful to contact Werner Wickboldt. By the way, at present I am living in Wuppertal (300 km distance from Braunschweig), Braunschweig is only my "permanent" address which I use only as a long-term mailing address.

Well, I will study the photos now and reply afterwards.

posted 09-15-2003 04:26         

I rushed through your photos: http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea1.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea2.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea3.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea4.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea5.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea6.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea7.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea8.jpg

Photos 1 through 6 show a square structure and a rectangular structure in the northeast of it. The rectangular structure is at the north end of the bow which you annotated in figure 6 with "possible circular walls or ring?".

I think that these two structures are what Wickboldt supposes to be the "Tempel" (temple of Poseidon) and the "Burg" (temple of Kleito and Poseidon). So far, I cannot identify the bows (partial rings) which Wickboldt claims to see.

I will examine your photos further.

Best regards,
Rainer

posted 09-15-2003 06:32         

I have heard an interesting opinion, that the Iberian Peninsula in earlier time could have been an island. North of the Pyrenees mountains in today France is a valley stretching from the Mediterranean coast near Narbonne to the coast of the Atlantic Ocean near Bordeaux. The river Garonne runs from Toulouse to the north west into the Atlantic and the river Aude from the highest point of this valley to the west into the Mediterranean. The small distance between them was spanned by smaller rivers, till in 1666 - 1684 the so called "Canal du Midi" was built allong this valley to provide a waterway between the two coasts of France (length 240 km). Its highest point is today 165 meters, but this must not have been always the case. Due to the pressing of the African plate against the Iberian plate the Pyrenees have piled up, and this process of land rising has not finished today. It is not sure when there was existing a waterway at sea level between the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean, but the Phoenicians still knew this way for a shorter connection with the British isles (tin trade) than around the very stormy coasts in the gulf of Biscaya. Maybe that the water way was completely navigable only in very early times, and in the later times due to land rising (earthquakes) they had to carry their ships over land for a short distance, but this practice was usual in early ship trade. According to their customs the Phoenicians held this shipping route secret, so the Greeks did not know about it. But it could be that in very early times for the reason that it could be circumnavigated, the Atlanteans (as possible forerunners of the Phoenicians, from where they had inherited their incredible knowledge about sea trading routes: England, Africa, eventually America) called Iberia an Island, and from there the old Egyptians heard about and wrote it down.
In this respect is interesting the link given by atalante: http://www.geocities.com/jim_bowery/Atlantis.html , in which is reported about the yet unpublished excavation of the oldest stone houses in Europe, from 10000BC, in Viols-le-Fort not far from Narbonne, that means near the western outlet of this old shipping way on the northern side of Iberia.

posted 09-15-2003 08:44         

the Basques are living today in the north-eastern part of Spain and the south western part of France, at both sides of the Pyrenees. Their language is unique and does not resemble to any other European or Indogermanic language. Some people say that it resembles to an Indian language in Mexico, and other specialists deny that. Anyway, the basques were always great seafarers, and they may well have reached North America before Columbus. http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/users/larryt/basque.words.html
It is believes that the Basques are descendants of one of the 10 kingdoms of Atlantis. http://arienker.freeservers.com/about.html
They are now living near the north end of the "Canal du Midi" shipping connection, but in historical times in southern France, near the southern end of this connection, was also spoken a similar language, the so called "Aquitanian", (today extincted).
Greetings from Ulf

posted 09-15-2003 10:57         

It is very important to remember that the capital city was located 9 km inland surrounded by rings of water. People always tend to forget this. The capital city must be connected to a large river in some way or another, and this is also what Plato described. ( a large ditch meeting at the capital city )

If you are looking for an sunken island it must be very near the coast.

Quote Georgeos: although always, before the mouth of the Columns of Hercules or Straits of Gibraltar

No, it is not obvious that the capital city is near the Pillars or Heracles. The whole "island"(sealand/coastland) of Atlantis was located in front of the pillars.
This fits both Morocco and Spain, but only the outermost part was near or directly in front of the Pillars. ( not the capital city )

( outermost part = southern Spain or northen Morocco )

I really hope the capital city ) is located in Spain ( it would be easier ), but I dont think it is, because there are to many of Plato's descriptions which don't correspond to Spain at all.

I agree that it is possible that Plato's measurments could be wrong, ( and if they are correct, they are not 100% correct ) but other other facts still speaks against Spain as the location of Atlantis, not only in Plato's account but in other ancient writings aswell.

Quote from Plato´s Critias – Translation by Benjamin Jowett

Moreover, there were a great number of elephants in the island; for as there was provision for all other sorts of animals, both for those which live in lakes and marshes and rivers, and also for those which live in mountains and on plains, so there was for the animal which is the largest and most voracious of all.

The fact that you could find a lot of elephants in Atlantis is very important.
This is a part of the descriptions which is not very likely to be a mistake. He wasn't talking about ivory trade, or anything like this, it couldn't have been a mistake.

QUOTE FROM ANCIENTROUTE.COMhttp://www.ancientroute.com/resource/animals/Elephant.htm

About the same time, the Carthaginians ( after 900 B.C ) were also training elephants. These animals came from Morocco where they were so numerous that the tusks were used as fencing.

Wild elephants in Spain never existed, but in Morocco they were numerous.

Regards,

posted 09-15-2003 13:28         

Many ancient peoples liked to live near swamps. (Catal Huyuk in Turkey 7500 BC was near a swamp. etc.)

The place we are currently investigating, Donana Spain, is located near a swamp.

The town of Illios (made famous by the Illiad) was located on a spur of high ground adjacent to a swampy coastal area. Here is a link which explains Illios. http://www.troya.com.mx/Towns_Iliad/TOWNS.html

The similar settings for Illios and the Donana place we are currently investigating is very interesting.

posted 09-15-2003 18:31         

We go by points.

The Guadalquivir river are a great river and are in front of the Columns of Hercules and close. Him memory that the words used by the old ones are always more or less relative. I can show several references to him of Greek and Roman authors where speech of places more far still than the opening of the Guadalquivir and that locates like near the Columns of Hercules. Own the Plato when he speaks of the region of Gadeira locates it near the Columns of Hercules, since the used Greek word is "epî".

2. It is not certain that many of the descriptions that offer Plato de Atlantis not correspond with Iberia. All the opposite. All, absolutely all, is in Iberia. I have made a comparative study in statistical form and the location between Iberia and Morocco, near Gibraltar, is the unique one that can be maintained with force and objectivity. Him shipment the following connection. It is in Spanish, but it is easy to include/understand the comparative table:
http://www.telepolis.com/cgi-bin/web/DISTRITODOCVIEW?url=/egiptologia/doc/rincondelviajero/Antiguascivilizaciones/LaAtlantida/atlantidafindelmisterio.htm

3. The translation of the translation of Jowett Youngest child is one of the translations more erroneous than they exist. You would have to be based on most recent, made by modern experts with more knowledge of Greek the old one that the translation of Jowett Youngest child or better still, directly works with texts in Greek and in Latin like the one of Chalcidius, same You will verify the easy thing that she turns out to discover some serious errors of translation colain by the translation of Jowett Youngest child.

4. I feel It but in relation to the elephants in Iberia, You are disinformed. In Spain elephants existed. They have appeared in numerous archaeological excavations. The question is that they had always thought that they were traidos of Africa. Also they have been in Spain petroglyphs with images of elephants, and objects of the Age of the Bronze and principles of the Age of the Iron that represent elephants. Until discovered a tomb, previous to the arrival of the Romans, with sculpture of elephants ( http://www.artehistoria.com/tienda/banco/jpg/HIT17959.jpg ) the problem takes root that officially, this tomb is considered of the Roman times, although other archaeologists peinsan that is a very previous tomb, reused by the Romans.

In Ambrona and Torralba, Soria (Spain) have been discovered an enormous concentration of rest of elephants. These rest appear almost complete, which has made think the archaeologists who despues of their death had quickly to be buried by some strange sedimentario or geologic event, that at the moment is not known. Provisionally east cemetery of elephants has dated - of more than 3,000 square meters like of paleolithic average, but none has not been done dated scientist of any type, like has been either able to demonstrate that the paleolítico man has been able to hunt them. Therefore nothing prevents, until they are not made dated scientists who these elephants are of more recent times. In addition most of the elephants they were found in archaeological layers, very little deep almost in surface. In spite of being the zone a depression of a valley where as a rule the sediments would be accumulated.

If these elephants were buried, accidentally, for more than 300,000 years, they would have to be not almost then to several meters of depth and in surface. The archaeological site was found indeed while the grounds were plowed. It is a very superficial deposit. I am convinced that these elephants, red deers, horses, bulls and other animals that appear associate, they date from the Age of the Bronze. In fact, ceramics of the Age of the Bronze have been between the rest of elephants, among other objects, but the explanation that always occurs is that they are material intrusive that does not correspond with the time and which somehow accidental they arrived until the paleolithical layer time.

Part of an established dogma: the elephants are prehistoric and therefore they must be paleolithics.

Until recently the possibility that was not accepted they are of more recent times, like the Age of the Bronze, although the archaeologists Martín Colliga and González Morales, have demonstrated that the elephants comprised of the habitual diet between the settlers of Iberia in the neolithic one and the Copper Age , reason why nothing prevents that soon are tests that the rest of elephants that also are in sites of the Bronze Age, are also of Iberia and not necessarily concerned of Morocco.

In an archaeological deposit of the community of Madrid "La Aldehuela" have been numerous archaeological rest of the Age of the Bronze next to rest of elephants. And in the menorquian cave of Mussol an ivory plate has been discovered recently of elephant decorated dated in end from the Age of Bronze (1000-800 BP) the style of the decoration is indigenous or balearic, it is not of any oriental culture. And in the same deposit has not been any African test of the contact with Phoenicians or towns.

In the following photo can be appreciated to the profunidad in which they aprecen most of the rest of elephants, although in the most superficial layers, to less than 50 centimeters, also they have appeared.
http://www.ideal.es/waste/fotos/primeuroelefante.jpg

Reconstruction of the elephants of Ambrona and Torralba:
http://www.ucburgalesa.com/cid/imagenes/ambronar_jpg.jpg

Most of the animals that appeared in these deposits are animals that know themselves that they existed until the Age of the Bronze, and some still exist nowadays in Iberia and Africa, like for example: horses, red deers and some carnivores like the wolf or the lion.

An adult male unit of these elephants of Iberia, could exceed with facility the 4.5 ms of height, and the 5 tons of weight. Some units were enough greater than the present African elephants. Eyeteeth in Ambrona of 3.75 ms of length have been econtrado, and these eyeteeth slightly are curved, but well almost straight like the one of the African elephants of nowadays. Some paleontologist consider to this type of elephant of Iberia, like the predecessor of the African elephants.

Everything seem to indicate that, the animals whose rest we found in Ambrona, died in natural circumstances. Many of them probably perished at times of drought, in a encharcada or marshy zone. But any test has not been discovered that demonstrates that the men of the paleolótico practiced the hunting of these elephants.

In the coasts of Iberia have been discovered 13 defenses or eyeteeth of elephants in the boat sunk of "Bajo de la Campana". Some of these eyeteeth had Phoenician graffittis. One thinks that they were brought of Morocco, but does not exist no definitive test scientific that they were brought of Morocco, reason why cannot be discarded that they were hunted in own Iberia. In fact, nowhere archaeological of the coasts of Morocco they have appeared eyeteeth of elephants, whereas in Iberia yes.

posted 09-15-2003 20:49         

What was found in Spain was Elephas (Palaeoloxodon) antiquus which is an extinct dwarf elephant from the Pleistocene (ca. 600,000-12,000 BC)! These "elephants" are so-called only because DNA sequencing has shown them to be more closely related to elephants than to mammoths. This has helped to better place it within its phylum, but not much else. Their bones were found in situ with the bones of other animals of the same period. This particular "elephant" was rather widespread throughout Europe at that time and remains of them have even been found in Greece. In terms of the classic Asian or African elephant, however, Spain did not have any.

Respectfully,

Erick

posted 09-16-2003 03:00         

today I wrote the following e-mail to Werner Wickboldt:
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Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:45:55 +0200 (MEST)
Sehr geehrter Herr Wickboldt,

Georgeos Diaz-Montexano, Dr. Ulf Richter und ich haben Satellitenbilder aus dem Marismengebiet des Guadalquivirs ausgewertet. Unser bestes Bild ist:
http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea1.jpg

Teile des Photos in höherer Auflösung sind:
http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea2.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea3.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea4.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea5.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea6.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea7.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea8.jpg

Wir vermuten, die rechteckige und quadratische Struktur in
Bild aerea6.jpg sind diejenigen, die Sie als mögliche Tempel und Burg von Atlantis deuten. Teile von Ringstrukturen können wir
jedoch nicht erkennen.

Woran könnte es liegen? Haben Ihre Photos eine höhere Auflösung, ist der Lichteinfall anders oder der Wasserstand höher bzw. niedriger?

Wir sind sehr an einer Zusammenarbeit interessiert und insbesondere Georgeos Diaz-Montexano besitzt Möglichkeiten für eine Ausgrabung.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Rainer Kühne

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Dr. Rainer W. Kühne
Vorm Holz 4
42119 Wuppertal
Germany
E-mail: kuehne70@gmx.de
Internet: http://t2.physik.uni-dortmund.de/person/kuehne.html
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Translation:

Dear Mr. Wickboldt,
Georgeos Diaz-Montexano, Dr. Ulf Richter and I have examined satellite photos from the Marisma region of the Guadalquivir. Our best image is:
http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea1.jpg

Parts of the photo in higher resolution are:
http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea2.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea3.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea4.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea5.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea6.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea7.jpg http://club.telepolis.com/gadeiros/fotos/atlantisdonana/aerea8.jpg

We suppose that the rectangular and the square structure of image aerea6.jpg are those which you interpret as possible temple and castle of Atlantis. We are not able to identify parts of the ring structure.

What could be the reason? Do your photos have a higher resolution, is there another illumination by light, or is the water higher or lower, respectively?

We are very interested in a collaboration and especially Georgeos Diaz-Montexano has the possibilities for an excavation.

Best regards,

Rainer Kühne

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Well, I hope Mr. Wickboldt will answer.

Best regards,
Rainer

posted 09-16-2003 05:13         

As it happens almost always, You seem not to read or my texts or she forgets nothing else to them to read them, because presisamente the elephants of Iberia are enormous, the more great that the present elephants of Africa. From where it has removed You who the elephants of Iberia were single dwarves?

In Iberia have been elephants of up to 5 meters of stature with eyeteeth of up to three meters in length and has been considered them a weight of 20 tons, and according to You, these are dwarfed elephants?

In Spain also have been other species of elephants (paleoloxodontos) like the Elephas Primigenius, a species of European Mammouth, that according to some authors could have sobrevido until the Age of the Bronze. The European paleoloxodontos and of Iberia consider present African the immediate ancestros of the Loxodontos.

Are something already demonstrated that You are not arranged to accept - under no concept no of the solid evidences that we have in Iberia and any element which we showed tries it to deny, although it is distorting the reality.

posted 09-16-2003 07:27         

I would be interested to the source of the findings of Mammathus Primigenus (woolly mammoth) in Iberia. It may be more likely that the early "elephant" or "mammoth" in Spain was the Mammathus meridionalis. This animal was much bigger (14 ft) than the Primigenus (9 ft) but it seems that the Meridionalis got extinct earlier.

Andre

posted 09-16-2003 08:27         

"Cat, Sorry but I can't see your point at the moment."

My point was that that is a very comprehensive summary of what was going on when and might provide good data on when and where the climate was supportive of life. Of course that is if you accept the dating method, which might be suspect. I offered it in good faith as something possibly of interest to you.

"BTW Don't believe everything what is in books."

As you know I edited (and wrote half of) a Marcel Dekker book (inter alia). Whilst I did my best at the time I could easily 'debunk' (I would say "correct") quite a lot of it now.

I am very critical of everything I read since finding how many half quotes and part truths one can find - even unintentionally from good authors.

OT This is not my field but may be relevant in terms of temperature and density effects:

Refractive index for a transparent medium is the ratio of phase velocity of electromagnetic waves in free space to that in the medium. It is given by the square root of the product of the complex relative permittivity and complex relative permeability.

There is a very good section on refractive index in relation to polarisation of molecules in "Intermolecular and Surface Forces" by Jacob Israelachvili. Academic Press 1992. ISBN 0-12-375181-0.

The equation quite generally useful is:

A(subscript)o / 4(pi)e(subscript)o

equals (n^2 - 1)/n^2+2)

all multiplied by 3v/4(pi)

where a(o)is electronoc polarisability
e is the static dielectric constant and
n is the refractive index.

Derived from the Clausius-Mossotti Equation.

Sorry if you already considered all that. If not, email me and I'll send you the basics of it if you want them.

posted 09-16-2003 17:39         

I feel that its counterpart in the classical world was the story of Jason and the Argonaughts. They carried their boat across Europe, and then sailed home, by way of Sicily etc.

So if the Greeks did know rumors about such an overland route, the Greeks certainly had the story garbled. Your suggestion that the Phoenicians were spreading such disinformation about the overland route is plausible.

But please don't forget that this was the heartland of "tin" trade from the Cassiterides (Cornall, etc.) and that the Celts were profitting as middlemen (and bandits) to keep the price of tin high in the Eastern Mediterranean.

So I feel the Celts were also spreading disinformation about the overland route, which, more commonly, ended at Marseilles France.

Greeks established a colony at Marseilles, probably around 600 BC, to transport tin back to Greece.