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Author Topic:   Tribes of Atlantis
atalante
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posted 08-09-2003 19:01     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Riven,

Your last post was about the Maxine Asher people, who are investigating the straits of Gibralter and the Cadiz area. I have serious reservations about linking biblical "Kadesh" to the name Cadiz. We can almost certainly find a better association for a Diaprepes ("holy") tribe, rather than grasping at straws for Hebrew Kadesh.

Some sea traders arrived in Spain, near the pillars of Hercules, from the eastern Mediterranean around 1500 BC. I believe they were the same nationality as the people who operated the "Gelidoniya wreck" which has been excavated in the last decade. But so far, the acedemic scholars do not even agree on a nationality for the Gelidoniya wreck.

The eastern people who arrived in southern Spain around 1500 BC encountered two Turdetani communities. One at Carteia, and a second community at Gadir/Cadiz. (note: These were not Heteo communities as Maxine Asher claims.)

The newly arrived sailing people spoke a Semitic language and called the region "span" or "spania" which meant "hidden" in their semitic language. Here is a link about the port of Carteia, which explains the way modern Spain got its name from the old semitic word "span". http://www.ancientroute.com/cities/carteia.htm

The location of this port of Carteia was not only OUTSIDE the pillars of Hercules, but also INSIDE the straits of Gibralter.

Carteia had a fine harbor, and it may have been expanded by both the Phoenicians and the Carthiginians while they controlled it.

Carteia harbor was capable of berthing 80 biremes at the same time. Carthage used it to blockade the straits of Gibralter; and had 4000 people living at Carteia, during a time when classical Athens had only 20,000 residents. Here is a link which explains this blockade (and the 80 biremes), but fails to distinguish between the Phoenicians and the Cartheginians. http://phoenicia.org/gibraltar.html

When the Romans arrived, they stationed 4000 RETIRED SOLDIERS at Carteia, plus their wives and families. And I presume this means there were also many civilians to support the ex-soldiers. http://www.arcl.ed.ac.uk/arch/remotesense/phoenicians/current/carteria.html

This means that Carteia was supporting a population almost as large as the 20,000 people who lived in Athens during the classical era.

In other words, Carteia played a very major role in history.

And I believe it had a function in Plato's Atlantis legends.

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 08-09-2003).]

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atalante
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posted 08-09-2003 20:20     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There are 3 potential candidates for the semitic-speaking Phoenician city which created colonies in Spain during 1500 BC to 1200 BC.
They are: Ugarit, Tyre, and Gebal/Byblos.

First let's try to rule out 2 of those candidates.

Byblos had been an Egyptian colony since 2500 BC. It originally supplied cedar timber to the Pharoahs of Egypt, while they were building the great pyramids of Gizeh. But during 1500-1200 BC it was still looking to Egypt for protection.

Tyre had the opposite problem. It was a nobody; and it was on the verge of becoming a big player in the region's trade, because the only trading partner of Byblos (i.e. Egypt) was stagnating. Tyre cut a deal with Israels's king Solomon around 1000 BC, to expand Tyre into the big time. So Tyre was not yet ready to expand during 1500-1200 BC.

Tyre became ready to establish overseas colonies when it observed that Assyria was ready to conquor Tyre, i.e. around 800-600 BC.

So that leaves only ONE key candidate to establish overseas colonies during 1500-1200 BC. And that candidate is Ugarit.

In the Amarna era, Egypt failed to come to the rescue of Ugarit. At that time, the Hittites conquored Ugarit and requisitioned all the military troops of Ugarit, thus leaving the region unprotected. The Sea Peoples were looming as a mortal threat; and Egypt actually invaded Ugarit (unsuccessfully) in 1289 BC under Ramses II.

I can think of NO REASON why the people in the kingdom of Ugarit (35 miles long and 25 miles wide) would want to remain in their homeland during 1400-1200 BC.

So I propose that Ugarit is the Phoenician city-state which colonized Spain at Carteia and/or Gadir/Cadiz during 1500-1200 BC.

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Riven
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posted 08-09-2003 23:11     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Atalante;
I mean no reference to Kadish as Diaprepes. Rather the presence of Egypt and Dr.Maxine Asher's research and the sightings of sunken cities off the Spanish coast. As well,an important theory of the Atlantis Cover-up. It is interesting that Spain has a Kadesh and Tartessus regions just like Syria has Tartesou and Kadesh. Like distant Twins. Tartesou and Antioch were important harbours. Ugarit is known for it's archives of historical texts. Then deeper north central you have the historical stronghold of Aleppo and it's monolithic Citadel.I wonder what they're hiding in there? I like your proposal for Ugarit as the founders of the Spanish coast,however I don't know all the facts yet as to the colonies Phoenicia founded in order and dates. Who the Egyptian mummies were and why they were there I haven't researched yet. The other thing that bother's me is if Critias stated these names in their proper order,given his old age and relying on Mnemosyne(memory),it's hard to say the exact order. One strong forte we have to this thread is the diversity to examine the neighborly cultures and their relationships with concrete evidence of Trade and Settlements.

Now to explain Elassipus with Olissipos(LISBON) would have to mean that Gadeirus was paired with it,which really makes sense. Maybe Evaemon belongs with Atlas? It seems to make sense starting with Atlas and Gadeirus. Tough concept.

[This message has been edited by Riven (edited 08-10-2003).]

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Riven
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posted 08-09-2003 23:43     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ebla
54 Km away from Aleppo, lies the excavation site that used to be the capital of an ancient kingdom. Ebla the ancient city found at Tell Mardikh is one of the most important archaeological discoveries in Syria.

In 1964 an Italian excavation team began to dig here and discovered this bronze age city. Ebla has been mentioned as one of the cities conquered in 2250 BC by the Akkadians from Mesopotamia under Naram Sin. It has been proved that Ebla was an important powerful kingdom, in the third and second millennia BC. Ebla has been considered something resembling a missing link, which now provides information on a kingdom that had important trading contacts with the Akkadians and Sumerians in Iraq, and north into Anatolia.

Not much is known about the people of this kingdom, although it is thought that the founders are of Amorite descent. Their language is known as Eblaic, and it was recorded on clay tablets in the Akkadian cuneiform. Ebla flourished greatly between 2400 and 2250 BC, as a trading city with a sophisticated economic and social system. It was destroyed by the Akkadians under Naram Sin in 2250 BC, and in 2000 BC was annexed into the Aleppo kingdom of Yamkhad. In 1600 BC it was conquered and heavily damaged by the Hittites. In 1450 BC it is recorded at Karnak by the Egyptian Pharaoh Thutmose III as a city that the Egyptians went through on their way to the Euphrates.

An Aramean fortress dating back to the 9th and 8th centuries BC, and other remains from the Persian and Byzantine show that it was still used, although it had lost its fame and was for the most part an abandoned city.

The city was circular and surrounded by a 20 to 30 meter thick wall and had a citadel or acropolis in the center of it. At four points round the city, the wall was perforated by gateways guarded by bastions with towers. One of these gateways is still evident on the southwest side of the city walls. The citadel at the center includes to palaces, the main one is the royal palace on the west side that consists of the royal quarters and an administrative area. There are also three caves below this where some of the royals were buried. The palace archives were found in the southern part of this palace. North of the tell are the remains of an Amorite fortress, which was found under a villa dating back to the Persian and Hellenistic periods.

Most of the artifacts and archives can be found at the Idlib museum.
http://www.syriagate.com/Syria/about/cities/Idlib/ebla.htm

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Riven
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posted 08-10-2003 00:10     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mari
Tell Hariri
At a distance of 120 Km southeast of Deir Ezzor, is Tell Hariri, one of the many hills that can be found in this area. Since 1933 the tell has been an excavation site for the ancient dead city of Mari, one of the oldest cities in the world.

This royal state resembling that of Ebla, had flourished for more than a millennium. Starting in 2900 BC, the state of Mari was already trading in tin (which would be manufactured into bronze), and had an extensive irrigation system to strengthen its agriculture. With the production of tin and strong ties with Mesopotamia and the Mediterranean, Mari was considered an important trading point.

After 2340 BC Mari was mastered by the Akkadians of Agadeh and the Sumerians of Ur. Both the Akkadians and the Sumerians would appoint kings or princes that would govern the state of Mari, these governing leaders were called the Shakkanakkou.

The Amorites came a little later from Mesopotamia and founded many kingdoms, of the most important was Babylon. In 1760 Mari fell to the most powerful of the Babylonian kingdom, Hammurabi. Hammurabi destroyed the kingdom and looted the palace and Mari was left abandoned. The knocking down of the brick walls meant that the rooms would be filled with earth and this is why everything is so well preserved.

As for the site itself, it constitutes mainly of a royal palace that is almost 100 meters long on all sides. The palace, which is said to be the residence of the last of the Mari kings, Zimri Lim, has two courtyards, an audience chamber or shrine dedicated to Ishtar (Goddess of fertility), a few religious buildings, slaves quarters, royal living quarters and a throne room. The throne room is the largest of the rooms in the palace and the throne is situated on the west wall. The room to the west of this is where the 17 000 tablets were found inscribed in cuneiform signs, that were used by the Babylonians. Outside the palace are a group of temples (to the east) and the temple of Ishtar (west), which probably dates back to 2500 BC.
http://www.syriagate.com/Syria/about/cities/Deir_Ezzor/mari.htm

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Riven
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posted 08-10-2003 00:54     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bronze statuette plated with gold , representing El , the supreme deity of the Canaanites . He is sitting on a throne with a crown on his head . On his temples one can see tow holes for fixing the horns , symbol of divinity . The god was holding a scepter in his left hand ( now missing ) . He is wearing a long garment and upturned shoes . The right hand is raised as a gesture of benediction . The general attitude shows that the god is receiving submission from worshippers.

Wonder why his sceptor is missing?
Almost looks like an Atlantean with a Trident(missing scepter?) Amusing anyway.
Scroll down.
http://www.damascus-museum.com/ancientsyria/firstugarit.htm

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atalante
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posted 08-10-2003 12:21     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tartessos (for Iberia) was the Nerva mine on the Rio Tinto river. It was in use, for mining, beginning around 3000 BC. We have discussed that previously in this thread. It has been discovered only recently.

Maxine Asher praises the 1930's research of Schulten, who tried to find Tartessos on the wrong river (Guadalquivir). Its generally accepted that Schulten did not find anything substantial.

The sarcophogi which have been excated at Cadiz/Gadir were PHOENICIAN and date to the 8th century BC. Archeologists are excited about that. (But Maxine Asher is perhaps the only person on Earth who thinks the Egyptians smuggled mummies into Phoenician sarcophogi.)

The Phoenician and Punic name for this region was Gadir, which comes from a Semitic word root WHICH REFERS TO THE MASSIVE SANDBANKS AND SALTMARSHES on which the city was founded. But Maxine Asher is trying to derive the region's name from a Latin word "Gades", which only came into use after Rome drove out the Carthaginians.

Please supply a credible reference which links the Latin word "Gades" to the non-Indo-European word "Kadesh".

Aristotle discussed the phenomenal sand deposits around Gadir/Cadiz. And today we know that several Phoenician activities here were literally swallowed by sand deposits.

Not only was this the most important metals trading post of antiquity, but it was also continually swallowing all human habitations.

Drainage ditches are still in use here, which were cut (c.f the Bahr Yusef canal in Egypt's Fayum) in an effort to extend the lifetime of the ancient habitations.

That is why the priest of Sais talked about Cadiz to Solon.

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Erick Wright
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posted 08-10-2003 15:03     Click Here to See the Profile for Erick Wright     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Riven & others,

Lest it should be forgotten, Gadeirus, the twin brother of Atlas, was the second-born of the first set of twins. Atlas was the first-born and that is why the royal city of Atlantis and the Atlantic Ocean were named after him. In light of this, looking for the royal city of Atlantis at Cadiz, in Spain, therefore makes no sense, due to the fact that the city/district of Gadeira (Cadiz) was the lot/portion of Gadeirus - the second-born.

Respectfully,

Erick

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Erick Wright
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posted 08-10-2003 15:12     Click Here to See the Profile for Erick Wright     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All you have to do is look across the Straits of Gibraltar, in Morocco, for a vast, coastal plain (or series of plains, to be more precise) surrounded by a ring of mountains (i.e. the Rif Mts., the Anti-Atlas Mts., and the High Atlas Mts.), having a small hill/mountain (c.f. ancient use of singular to describe plural - mount for mountains) at its center, bordering the Atlantic Ocean, and beyond the Pillars of Hercules. Why is this so difficult for people to see?

Respectfully,

Erick

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Riven
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posted 08-10-2003 15:44     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Okay guys,it was just a post as to some things that were mentioned about Spain. NOT that we were looking for Atlantis in Spain. Like everything else we are looking for clues and how these nations intermingled,and as to Atalantes reply we see the discrepancies invovled. Which is good. Don't forget that we are learning about these different cultures as well,not that they should ALL mean one of the Atlantean Twins.

ERICK; nice to hear from you. Perhaps you could provide a Chronological reference to Phoenicias colonies that were established in order of first to last. I know your attitude is WE SHOULD DO OUR HOMEWORK,but as you can see I also post references so we have a quick guide. How did you feel about Atalantes response to Ugarit establishing Spain?

People; Do you think Critias was right in listing the names in their proper order and pairing? Should Gadeirus be with Elassipos? Atlas with Evaemon?

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rajesh
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posted 08-11-2003 03:00     Click Here to See the Profile for rajesh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As a part of the Ninth Opinion, may I humbly submit that like Guanche, Gades is also another similar name of the so-called Indo-European origin.

Guanche >> GoWanshe >> Go Wanshi (Belonging to the family of Cow/Gow)

Gades >> GoDesh (The Nation of Cow/Gow)

“KaDesh” can be a simple Phoenician phonetic variation of “Gades (GoDesh)”. For example the Persian (Indo-European) name “Gadir” or “Guadir” becomes “Kadir” or “Quadir” in Arabian influenced languages. This may be some sort of remnant Phoenician influence over the present Arabic languages.

With Regards...

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Riven
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posted 08-11-2003 03:10     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
atalante
Member posted 06-22-2003 20:00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Plato used a very convoluted sentence to describe the region alloted to the "twin brother of Atlas" (who Plato proposes should be called "Eumelus" in Greek language).
Here is what the Critias says:
"his twin brother...obtained as his lot the extremity of the island [or coastland] towards the Pillars of Heracles, FACING [i.e. on the opposite side of] the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world...[This twin's name] in the language of the country which is named after him, is Gadeirus."

In other words, Eumelus had his tribal region on the AFRICAN side of the pillars of Hercules. And that region probably spoke an afroasiatic language (similar to Hebrew, Egyptian, Arabic, or Berber) where the word Gadir is a common noun.

Let me give you my view on this;

Critias; "To his twin brother,who was born after him,and obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillar of Heracles,facing the country which is now called the region of GADES in that part of the world,he gave the name which in the HELLENIC language is EUMELUS,in the language of the country which is NAMED AFTER HIM(GADES),GADEIRUS."

When Atlantis WAS a large island,(NOT MOROCCO)the region facing(SPAIN),was named after him(GADEIRUS)or Gades. The region of SPAIN(the facing land)to ATLANTIS. He's telling us that Spain was named after Gadeirus. Eumelus was just a greek version of it. Even though all these Kings descended from Atlantis,which is now GONE. They established their territories,which remain.

Remember,Critias also said that after Atlas,the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic. If Atlantis was Morocco(LIBYA),would they not have said LIBYATIC or LIBYAN ocean? The Atlas mountain regions were also named after Atlas where it is probably their first established colony.

What I'm thinking is that the portions were divided amongst them on ATLANTIS as Critias said,in their early stages. The evidence of this is naming GADES after GADEIRUS. Then as the Atlanteans spread out they retained there kings names for the new colonies. The Atlanteans could be responsible for the White seed that mingled with Africa. Which could also give rise to where God placed Adam and Eve,in Atlantis.

[This message has been edited by Riven (edited 08-11-2003).]

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Riven
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posted 08-11-2003 03:20     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for your reply Rajesh; please,by all means submit more theories for the names,or cultures you feel were important to Atlantis.

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rajesh
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posted 08-11-2003 03:21     Click Here to See the Profile for rajesh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When “KELASSipos” can be “Elassipos” and when “VAMON” can be “eVAeMON”, then why to disturb “Gadeirus” and awake “Atlas”?

“Gadeirus” may mean to be “People or Region, who are Holders or Defenders of the Cow”.

“Atlas” may mean to be the “One who does not move or does not vary or stands still”.

These may be some simple derivations emerging out of the ancient so-called Indo-European languages.

With Regards...

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rajesh
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posted 08-11-2003 03:30     Click Here to See the Profile for rajesh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Respected Riven:

Thanx for the encouragement. However, I am still not fully well, so my response may be sporadic only.

With Regards..

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Riven
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posted 08-11-2003 03:36     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Get well soon!

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Riven
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posted 08-11-2003 15:25     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Common interests made these cities form a Phoenician federation under the leadership of one of its cities. In the 16th century BC Ugarit headed the federation, Byblos in the 14th, Sidon in the 12th, Tyre in the 11th to the 9th and Tripoli in the 5th.

The Phoenician city-states were Ugarit, Aradus, Tripoli, Batrun, Byblos, Beirut, Sidon, and Tyre. Each of the coastal cities was an independent kingdom. The city of Byblos gave its name to the Bible and the Tyrian princess Europa gave her name to Europe. They invented the alphabet. The Phoenicians excelled in producing textiles, in carving ivory, in working with metal, stone and wood, and above all in making glass which they also invented. They even built the temple of Solomon and mined tin in Cornwall. Phoenician ships of cedar ruled the seas, they were the first people of sail past the 'Pillars of Hercules' and discover Atlantic, another milestone in the history of man. The Phoenicians discovered the North Star which the Greeks were to name the Phoenician Star in honour of those that discovered it. These ancient Lebanese founded colonies wherever they went in the Mediterranean such as Cyprus, Rhodes, Crete, Malta, Sicily, Sardinia, Marseilles, Cadiz, and Carthage. Furthermore, their ships circumnavigated Africa a thousand years before those of the Portuguese. Amongst other evidence, Phoenician inscriptions have been found in Brazil to suggest that the Phoenicians crossed the Atlantic thousands of years before Columbus. With the establishment of trade routes to Europe and western Asia, Phoenicia was to acquire wealth and position that rivalled Rome.

They exercised a stimulating, refining, and civilising influence wherever they went. North and south and east and west they adventured themselves amid perils of all kinds, actuated by the love of adventure more than by the thirst for gain, conferring benefits, spreading knowledge, suggesting, encouraging, and developing trade, turning men from the barbarous and unprofitable pursuits of war and bloodshed to the peaceful occupations of productive industry. They did not aim at conquest. They united the various races of men by the friendly links of mutual advantage and mutual dependence, conciliated them, softened them, humanised them.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/2587/phoenicia.html

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Riven
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posted 08-11-2003 16:05     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Phoenicians were characterized by their chief competitors as intelligent, shrewd, cunning, proud, arrogant, mysterious, and intensely religious. Phoenicia is mentioned in both Egyptian and Mesopotamian sources such as the tale of Wenamum and Assyrian annals which mainly refer to conquest. One important source which must have originally been direct are the annals of Tyre quoted by Josephus in certain passages from Menander of Ephesus. Another significant source is the Old Testament.

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Riven
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posted 08-11-2003 16:07     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Byblos (Jbail), the oldest city in the world, goes back at least 9000 years.

Sidon is said to mean "fishing" or "hunting" and started life as a small fishing community around 3000 BC and became one of the three great Phoenician city-states, rivalling Byblos and Tyre as a naval power. Not only did Sidon make purple dye but it was also the centre of the glass making industry. Sidon is perhaps the second oldest of the cities and its inhabitants founded Tyre.

Tyre was a major Phoenician seaport from about 2000 BC onwards through the Roman period, was mentioned in Egyptian records of the 14th century BC as being subject to Egypt. In the 10th and 9th centuries Tyre probably enjoyed primacy over the other cities of Phoenicia and was ruled by kings whose power was limited by a merchant oligarchy. In the 9th century BC colonists from Tyre founded in northern Africa the city of Carthage. The town is frequently mentioned in the Bible as having had close ties with Israel.
Europa's brothers, unable to find her, were to settle in foreign lands, Cilix in Cilicia , Thasus in the island of Thasos, Cadmus in various places including the island of Thera, before settling in Boeotia where he founded Thebes and named the entire continent Europa after his sister.
Berytus (Beirut) Its earliest name was "Birot", a Semitic word meaning "well", or "source". When the city-states of Sidon and Tyre began to decline in the first millennium BC, Berytus, as it was then called, acquired more influence, but it was not until Roman times that it became an important port and cultural centre with its famed Roman Law School.
Tripoli Tripoli (Trablous), some of 85 km north of Beirut and the second largest city in Lebanon, shares the long history of the Levantine coast. It was founeded by inhabitants of the Phoenician cities of Sidon and Tyre and Arados - hence the name "Tripolis", meaning "triple city". The first parliament ever to convene in the Middle East met in the Phoenician city of Tripoli.
Baalbeck The Acropolis of Baalbeck, in the Beqaa valley 85 Kilometres from Berytus, is the largest and best preserved corpus of Roman architecture in the world. Its temples, dedicated to Jupiter, Venus and Bacchus, were built in the second and third centuries AD
Phoenician Colonies
The Mediterranean and North African coast (with the exception of Cyrenaica) entered the mainstream of Mediterranean history with the arrival in the 1st millennium BC of Phoenician traders, mainly from Tyre and Sidon in the eastern Mediterranean. The Phoenicians were not looking for land to settle but for anchorages and staging points on the trade route from Phoenicia to Spain, a source of silver and tin. Points on an alternative route by way of Sicily, Sardinia, and the Balearic Islands also were occupied. The Phoenicians lacked the manpower and the need to found large colonies as the Greeks did, and few of their settlements grew to any size. The sites chosen were generally offshore islands or easily defensible promontories with sheltered beaches on which ships could be drawn up. Carthage (from the Phoenician Kart-Hadasht, New City), destined to be the largest Phoenician colony and in the end an imperial power, conformed to the pattern.
Tradition dated the foundation of Gades (modern Cádiz; the earliest known Phoenician trading post in Spain) to 1110 BC, Utica (Utique) to 1101 BC, and Carthage to 814 BC. The dates appear legendary, and no Phoenician object earlier than the 8th century BC has yet been found in the west. Though individual voyages doubtless took place earlier, the establishment of permanent posts is unlikely to have taken place before 800 BC, antedating the parallel movement of Greeks to Sicily and southern Italy.
Material evidence of Phoenician occupation in the 8th century BC comes from Utica, and of the 7th or 6th century BC from Hadrumetum (Susah, Sousse), Tipasa (east of Cherchell), Siga (Rachgoun), Lixus, and Mogador (Essaouira), the last being the most distant Phoenician settlement found so far. Finds of similar age have been made at Motya (Mozia) in Sicily, Nora (Nurri), Sulcis, and Tharros (San Giovanni di Sinis) in Sardinia, and Cádiz and Almuñécar in Spain.
The emergence of Carthage as an independent power, leading to the creation of an empire based on the secure possession of the North African coast, resulted less from the weakening of Tyre, the chief city of Phoenicia, by the Babylonians than from growing pressure from the Greeks in the western Mediterranean; in 580 BC some Greek cities in Sicily attempted to drive the Phoenicians from Motya and Panormus (Palermo) in the west of the island. The Carthaginians feared that if the Greeks won the whole of Sicily they would move on to Sardinia and beyond, isolating the Phoenicians in North Africa. The successful defence of Sicily was followed by attempts to strengthen limited footholds in Sardinia; a fortress at Monte Sirai is the oldest Phoenician military building in the west. The threat from the Greeks receded when Carthage, in alliance with Etruscan cities, backed the Phoenicians of Corsica in about 540 BC and succeeded in excluding the Greeks from contact with southern Spain.
Venerable historical traditions recount the Phoenician voyages to found new cities. Utica, on the Tunisian coast of North Africa, was reputedly founded in 1178 BC, and by 1100 BC the Phoenician city of Tyre supposedly had a Spanish colony at Gadir (Cadiz). Although intriguing, these historical traditions are unsupported by evidence. Excavations confirm that the Phoenicians settled in southern Spain after 800 BC. Their search for new commodities led them ever farther westward and was the reason for their interest in southern Spain's mineral wealth. The untapped lodes of silver and alluvial deposits of tin and gold provided essential raw materials with which to meet the increasing Assyrian demands for tribute. By 700 BC silver exported from the Río Tinto mines was so abundant that it depressed the value of silver bullion in the Assyrian world. This is the background for Phoenician interest in the far west.
Rich tombs of Phoenician pattern found at Almuñécar, Trayamar, and Villaricos, Maritime bases from the Balearic Islands (Ibiza) to Cadiz on the Atlantic were set up to sustain commerce in salted fish, dyes, and textiles. Early Phoenician settlements are known from Morro de Mezquitilla, Toscanos, and Guadalhorce and shrines from Gorham's Cave in Gibraltar and the Temple of Melqart on the island of Sancti Petri near Cadiz. After the fall of Tyre to the Babylonians in 573 BC and the subjugation of Phoenicia, the early prosperity faded until the 4th century. Many colonies survived, however, and Abdera (Adra), Baria (Villaricos), Carmona (Carmo), Gadir (Cadiz), Malaca (Málaga), and Sexi (Almuñécar) thrived under the trading system established by Carthage for the central and western Mediterranean. Eivissa (Ibiza) became a major Carthaginian colony, and the island produced dye, salt, fish sauce, and wool. A shrine with offerings to the goddess Tanit was established in the cave at Es Cuyram, and the Balearic Islands entered Eivissa's commercial orbit after 400 BC. In 237 BC, just before the Second Punic War, Carthage launched its conquest of southern Spain under Hamilcar Barca, founded a new capital city at Cartago Nova (Cartagena) in 228 BC, and suffered crushing defeat by the Romans in 206 BC.
Among the most outstanding colonies or trading posts which the Phoenicians had established were the cities of Genoa, where they went in with the Celts and established a flourishing colony, and Marseilles which they started as nothing more than a trading post before it became fully Hellenized.
The earliest site outside the Phoenician homeland known to possess important aspects of Phoenician culture is Ugarit (Ras Shamra), about six miles north of Latakia. The site was already occupied before the 4th millennium BC, but the Phoenicians only became prominent there around 1991-1786 BC.
According to Herodotus, the coast of Libya along the sea which washes it to the north, throughout its entire length from Egypt to Cape Soloeis, which is its furthest point, is inhabited by Libyans of many distinct tribes who possess the whole tract except certain portions which belong to the Phoenicians and the Greeks.
Tyre's first colony, Utica in North Africa, was founded perhaps as early as the 10th century BC. It is likely that the expansion of the Phoenicians at the beginning of the 1st millennium BC is to be connected with the alliance of Hiram of Tyre with Solomon of Israel in the second half of the 10th century BC. In the following century, Phoenician presence in the north is shown by inscriptions at Samal (Zincirli Hüyük) in eastern Cilicia, and in the 8th century at Karatepe in the Taurus Mountains, but there is no evidence of direct colonization. Both these cities acted as fortresses commanding the routes through the mountains to the mineral and other wealth of Anatolia.
Cyprus had Phoenician settlements by the 9th century BC. Citium, known to the Greeks as Kition (biblical Kittim), in the southeast corner of the island, became the principal colony of the Phoenicians in Cyprus. Elsewhere in the Mediterranean, several smaller settlements were planted as stepping-stones along the route to Spain and its mineral wealth in silver and copper: at Malta, early remains go back to the 7th century BC, and at Sulcis and Nora in Sardinia and Motya in Sicily, perhaps a century earlier. According to Thucydides, the Phoenicians controlled a large part of the island but withdrew to the northwest corner under pressure from the Greeks. Modern scholars, however, disbelieve this and contend that the Phoenicians arrived only after the Greeks were established.
In North Africa the next site colonized after Utica was Carthage (near Tunis). Carthage in turn seems to have established (or, in some cases, re-established) a number of settlements in Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, the Balearic Islands, and southern Spain, eventually making this city the acknowledged leader of the western Phoenicians.
Carthage Phoenician KART-HADASHT, Latin CARTHAGO, great city of antiquity, traditionally founded on the north coast of Africa by the Phoenicians of Tyre in 814 BC. It is now a residential suburb of the city of Tunis. Its Phoenician name means New Town.
The earliest evidence for Phoenician ships comes from an Egyptian relief of around 1400 BC at the tomb of Kenamon at Thebes which shows Phoenician ships unloading in an Egyptian port. The vessels have much in common with contemporary Egyptian ships, especially in the mast, rigging, sickle shaped hull and straight rising stem and stern posts, and deck beams projecting through the hull just below the sheerstrake.

Enough said about Phoenicia. This should give you a good idea about them.

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Riven
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posted 08-11-2003 20:48     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A Lost Atlantean Scribe; 3000 bC.
Scroll down to the facial closeup and look at his right eye. See the number 5 upside down in his eye? An Azaean? Mazaeos was a name for an African slave,I believe from Ibn Battuta tales. By the way,you can buy this for 12,000.00 US.


http://www.bcgalleries.com.au/a4310.html


[This message has been edited by Riven (edited 08-11-2003).]

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atalante
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posted 08-11-2003 21:30     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As Riven has documented, the Phoenician era was a period of rotation. First Ugarit was the leader (until it was destroyed around 1200 BC by the Sea Peoples); then from 11th century to 8th century BC, Sidon was the leader; then from 800 BC to 600 BC Tyre was the leader; and finally after 600 BC, Carthage was the leader.

Lets look at what Sidon inherited, and gave its name to, around 1200 BC. The original settlements were located in the foothills of a mountain range in Spain where the annual rainfall reaches an AVERAGE of 85 inches per year. Those mountains are named Grazelma. http://www.arrakis.es/~pvm/where/grazaronda.html

We cannot be sure how many towns the Sidonians established. But at least two are known: Medina Sidonia and Ubrique.

Here is a map for visualizing the locations of Medina Sidonia and Ubrique. http://www.supertravelnet.com/maps/index.php?country=259_5029_7

The name of Medina Sidonia is truly ancient, as you can confirm by a google search. http://50.1911encyclopedia.org/M/ME/MEDINA_SIDONIA_DON_ALONSO_PEREZ_DE_GUZMAN_EL_BUENO.htm

As for Ubrique, here is my documentation that it was settled by the Phoenicians: http://www.andalusia-web.com/route_1.htm

There were probably at least 2 economic reasons for putting colonies in this area. 1) They were "islands in the sky" with visual line-of-sight communication to Gibralter and the Moroccan coast. http://www.camaleonsports.de/eng_cycle_DosMares.htm
This was a key element in the Phoenician plan to detect and destroy all foreign ships which sailed through the Straits of Gibralter.

2) The Sidonian/Ugaritian colonies were in the heart of a million acres of cork trees, which the Sidonians decided to cut down and harvest.

Medina Sidonia is located on a low hill and is surrounded by a maze of canals, in addition to being surrounded by mountains, and being part of a region which opens to the South (as Plato recommended).

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 08-11-2003).]

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atalante
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posted 08-11-2003 22:58     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
At an early date, some Phoenician group built a trading colony at the south end of what was then Cadiz Bay. They used ashlar stones for their foundation. Everything except the ashlars has disappeared, and the ashlars today are covered by so much debris that they are only visible today at LOW tide. Meanwhile the shoreline of Cadiz bay has advanced 6 miles towards Cadiz. The silt deposits are due to the 85 inches/year of precipitation in the headwaters of this river basin.

You can however, still walk across the Ocean (only at low tide) to the old temple of Melkart which the Phoenicians established on a sand bar in the Atlantic Ocean, adjacent to their original trading outpost here.

Here is a link which discusses walking across the Ocean to the temple of Melkart. (Its a long link. You should scroll down 1/3 of the way through the link to the discussion of Chiclana de la Frontera.) That discussion includes a picture of the 5 mile long DRAINAGE chanel which was dredged, immediately in front of the ancient Phoenician trading post, after the shoreline had bypassed the trading post. http://www.vejer.com/page9_eng.htm

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posted 08-12-2003 12:05     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Kurgan people were an Indo-European culture existing during the fifth, fourth, and third millennia BC; they lived in northern Europe, from Russia across Germany, and various authorities have mounted a case for them being THE proto-Indo-European culture, from which all Indo-European cultures descend. Other researchers think it likely that later-day Kurgans were the "Sea People" who laid waste to the Holy Land around 1200 BC - traveling south along the Mediterranean in ships, with their women following them in wagons along the shore.

Apparently there is also mention of 3 waves of attacks in 4300bC,3400bC and 3000bC.

http://www.iras.ucalgary.ca/~volk/sylvia/Kurgans.htm

[This message has been edited by Riven (edited 08-12-2003).]

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posted 08-12-2003 12:44     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Neolithic Cultures of Thessaly, Crete, and the Cyclades

Sesklo (ca. 6000-5300 b.c.)

http://www.indiana.edu/~classics/aegean/R02.html

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Riven
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posted 08-12-2003 12:54     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To this date, Catal Hoyuk is the oldest and largest Neolithic Age city found. Approximately 8000 years old, this central Anatolian settlement point is situated to the east of Carsamba River, which is fed from Lake Beysehir, and near the town of Cumra.
The population of the city is estimated to have been in the thousands which would have undoubtedly been the most crowded city on earth, at that time. There are a number of significant details about this city; for example, the first fabric, mirror, wooden bowl, methodic system of agriculture, cattle farming and the emergence of religion in today's format and various other objects were first developed and used here.
http://www.focusmm.com/civcty/cathyk00.htm

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Riven
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posted 08-12-2003 13:13     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is a good link to ancient maps.
http://www.ancient-coin-forum.com/ancient_coin_articles/Maps_of_the_Ancient_World.htm

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rajesh
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posted 08-12-2003 15:37     Click Here to See the Profile for rajesh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
QUOTE >> The "Mysteries of Samothrace" were celebrated at Samothrace, another island slightly south of Lemnos. And these mysteries honored 7 fire-deities, presumably led by Hephaistos (the god of all heat treatments and metallurgy). << UNQUOTE

Incidentally “Samothrace” matches much with “Samoothra” and that means ‘The Ocean’. This may be having some Sanskrit or Phoenician connection.

QUOTE >> Proclus gives the name of the high priest with whom Plato spoke in Sais - Pateneit. It is probably from him that the Greek philosopher learned about the oldest archives of Egypt. Another interesting fact to notice is that the high priest of Egypt Psonchis, << UNQUOTE

It is very interesting to note the name of the Sais Priest as “Pateneit”. This may be very rare type of name, but it also matches very much with “Pateneik”, which is a very famous and reputed surname in Orissa. Incidentally this is the same Indo-Atlantean part of Orissa, which I have suspected to be associated with the elusive Orissalcum on some other threads.

The name of the high priest of Egypt “Psonchis” is also very enigmatic. I could not yet match this with any name, but this is very similar to “Sanchi”. “Sanchi” is a very famous and ancient historical place in India and it is having at least five dome shaped small pyramids (Stupas) of ~ 200 BC. Sanchi is just 200 Km away from the Sun City of Avanti (Ujjain). The oldest Archetype of all pyramids (Mahakal Temple) of ~ 10000 BC (as per tradition), situated at the banks of Sippra in Avanti is still highly venerated. So I feel that the high priest of Egypt would have taken his name from the place of his origin i.e. Sanchi. This Sanchi had been a part of the Kingdom of Avanti for most of the ancient time. Ancient Indian scriptures have clearly stated that to reduce the effects of the onset of the evil age (~3102 BC), the high priests from India were sent to Egypt. In fact Egypt has been named as Misr after these priests.

Please see the following:
http://www.travelcentralindia.com/ujjain.html
http://www.indiaprofile.com/pilgrimage/ujjain.htm
http://simhastha.nic.in/mahakaleshwar/mahakaleshwar.htm
http://rogershepherd.com/WIW/solution12/stupa.html
http://www.bootsnall.com/travelstories/asia/dec00sanchi1.shtml

With Regards...

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Riven
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posted 08-12-2003 15:40     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Story of Atlantis
A Geographical, Historical and Ethnological Sketch
by W. Scott-Elliot
[1896]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/soa/index.htm

An interesting read for those who haven't.

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Riven
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posted 08-12-2003 15:50     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
According to the Persians best informed in history, the Phoenicians began to quarrel. This people, who had formerly dwelt on the shores of the Erythraean Sea, having migrated to the Mediterranean and settled in the parts which they now inhabit,

From Herodotus Histories,Book I,Clio.

Where exactly did these Phoenicians start?

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Riven
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posted 08-12-2003 16:17     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The earliest recorded reference to Bahrain dates back to the third millennium BC, when it was known as Dilmun. Later the Greeks settled there and called it Tylos. 600bC.

http://www.bahrain.gov.bh/English/bahrain/History.asp

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Riven
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posted 08-12-2003 21:31     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A Lost Atlantean City. Mneseus,Mestor and Azaes. Leucippe,Evanor and Poseidon.
http://touregypt.net/karnak.htm

[This message has been edited by Riven (edited 08-12-2003).]

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atalante
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posted 08-12-2003 21:54     Click Here to See the Profile for atalante     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tin would not be used to coat a defensive wall of a city, even if Plato thinks the Atlanteans did so. Tin self-destructs at temperatures below 56 degrees F. This bit of trivia helps to explain why a hot country like India was probably the first source of tin for the Mesopotamian civilizations. Moreover, it was natives in leather rowboats who brought tin to Cadiz -- both before, and after, the Phoenicians controlled Cadiz.

"When tin is cooled below 56*F, it changes slowly from white to gray. This change from the white to the gray is called "the tin pest", and once the conversion begins, the process continues even at higher temperatures. Gray tin literally converts into dust, making tin virtually useless unless alloyed. There is virtually no use for gray tin., except possibly as a polishing compound.

Tin seems to have been imported from Iran, the Caucassus [Kestel mine], or somewhere in the Indies, before the Phoenicians brought it in from Spain. However, the earliest needs for the mineral must have been met by Indian sources...

[In the Phoenician era] Tin , or tin ore, was brought across the North Sea to the coast of Amoriica, thence to Gaul or Iberia {France or Spain] by very brave seamen in very small, leather hulled row boats. They... hugged the coast around the west coast of Spain and Portugal to Cadiz...The market for tin was at Cadiz." http://www.ancientroute.com/resource/metal/tin.htm

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posted 08-13-2003 00:38     Click Here to See the Profile for rajesh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
QUOTE >> The Phoenician city-states were Ugarit, Aradus, Tripoli, Batrun, Byblos, Beirut, Sidon, and Tyre. Each of the coastal cities was an independent kingdom. << UNQUOTE

The similarities below may be more than mere repeatative coincidences:

Ugarit = Urjaret (Chariot of the Goddess of Power)
Aradus = Hardas (Servant of God Hari)
Tripoli = Tripur –I (One of the three ancient cities)
Batrun = Barun or Varuna (Poseidon)
Byblos = Bahubales (God Bahubal)
Sedon = SriDhan (Good Wealth)
Tyre = Tripur –II (Another of the three ancient cities)
Beyrut = Virat (Great or Giant)

With Regards...

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Riven
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posted 08-13-2003 03:53     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Paleolithic Egypt;
500-700,000 bC.—Homoerectus discovered
30,000 bC. Sahara ends it’s fertile land and rolling grasslands.
17-15,000 bC Fakhurians-entirely microlithic tribe(Harpoons.sickles,arrows). Halfans also around. (Idfuan tribes)
13,000 bC Sebilian industry(diorite/flint), and Silsillian industry coexist. Silsillians contribute truncated blades and microliths(harpoons,sickles,arrows)
Up to 10,000 bC. Qadan industry-first to show seed and agricultural techniques.(sickles,grinding stones) These tools mysteriously vanished around 10,000 bC. Flood? Climate change? Revert back to hunter gatherers.
Epipaleolithic Period-10-5,500 bC. Paleolithic to PreDynastic eras. Transition to village-dwelling farmer cultures.
7000 bC. Permanent settlements on floodplain Nile.
5500 bC. Archaeological evidence of population explosion.
Arkinian (microlithic)and Sharmarkian (5750-3270 bC)
Up to 4000 bC. Nomadic tribes band together forming the Faiyum North culture and Badarian South culture. Badarian culture more adavanced,tomb burials,stonework,farming,hunting,mining,trade(wool,turquoise) carved objects and made pottery.
Nubians and Ethiopians played an important role in Egypt. The Badarian ,(Gerzean, pottery usually depicted men in boats), south culture was more advanced than the north Faiyum cultures(Amatrian). The art of stoneworking and Metallurgy evolved from them, which I feel played an important role in the Labyrinth and it’s two Pyramids (Now missing). Later the north culture (lower Egypt) became the prominent state (Menes). Herodotus listed 18 Ethiopian Pharoahs, academia claims 5.
These Nubians and Aethiopians could be Azaes. Hot, burnt, fire, Slaves. Today there is only about 10,000 Nubians left!!
What say you?

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Riven
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posted 08-13-2003 04:01     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting Rajesh.

Either Sidon(Good wealth)or Byblos(Godlike) could be the Phoenician/Atlantis link to Diaprepes?

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Riven
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posted 08-13-2003 04:13     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
--Known as the Scorpion king, Narmer was portrayed in various carvings as he finally unified both the Upper and Lower Egypt after a long history of fighting. Because there is not a lot known regarding this event, the only records available for this occurrence is the Narmer Palette and the Scorpion mace-heads.

--The Narmer Palette was found near the main deposit of the Hierakonopolis. However, due to inaccurate and shoddy excavating, it truly is not known whether the Narmer Palette dated before or after the unification (Hoffman, #129). James Edward Quibell, who did not keep field notes, was not able to keep accurate records about how he found the object (and what he found it with) hence the confusion. Had this been done, it would have been easier to deduce what period the palette had been deposited. F.W. Green, a researcher who did keep notes, stated that the object was found in a place directly associated with the protodynastic level. However, two years prior, Quibell’s report labeled the Palette as part of the main deposit which was dated around 2130-1785 BC (Middle Kingdom) (Hoffman, #129). The knowledge of the date of this object would have been helpful in determining who deposited this artifact as a votive to the temple in Hierakonopolis. In fact, had it been determined that this dates to the pre-dynastic period, Narmer himself may have left it there.

Very Shoddy!

http://www.geocities.com/gcalla1/narmer.htm

I wonder if this warlike Scorpion King knows of a big battle?

[This message has been edited by Riven (edited 08-13-2003).]

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posted 08-13-2003 05:24     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hope my math is still good.

Given; 1 stade=608 feet. 5280ft/mile
4840 sq.yds=acre 640 acres=sq.mile.

Each lot 10 stade by 10 stade.
36,966,400sq.ft=4,107,377.7sq yds= 848.6 acres

60,000 lots, as per Critias.

50,916,000 acres= 79,556.25 sq miles for the total lots in the plain.

[This message has been edited by Riven (edited 08-15-2003).]

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rajesh
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posted 08-13-2003 11:56     Click Here to See the Profile for rajesh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
QUOTE >> According to the Persians best informed in history, the Phoenicians began to quarrel. This people, who had formerly dwelt on the shores of the Erythraean Sea, having migrated to the Mediterranean and settled in the parts which they now inhabit,
From Herodotus Histories,Book I,Clio.
Where exactly did these Phoenicians start? << UNQUOTE

If Herodotus was not speaking on the basis of some scientific data, then he has to be prophetic. After all, his name too is similar to “Haridas” or ‘The Servant of God Hari”. I have read this positional statement of Herodotus at several places and also have seen very few thinkers taking it seriously. The reasons can be right or wrong and best known to them. I still feel that most may be feeling it difficult due to the paucity of enough archeological data and efforts in this matter and direction.

The following link provided earlier by Respected Riven throws some better light on the Egyptian priests and their rituals:
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/priests.htm

With Regards...

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posted 08-13-2003 12:14     Click Here to See the Profile for rajesh     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
QUOTE >> Where exactly did these Phoenicians start? << UNQUOTE

The starting point of Phoenicians may be based upon strong conjectures and circumstantial evidences rather than on real scientific evidences. I humbly submit that otherwise every eighth standard student would have narrated us the starting point of Phoenicians.

(1) The Phoenicians and “Sea Peoples” have to be basically and logically evolved from a long precedence of the “River Peoples” or “Fishing Peoples”. Obviously the rivers proceed, evolve, enlarge and mix up with the sea.

(2) They may have to be led by the “Religious Peoples” and accompanied by “Expert Construction Peoples”.

(3) These “River Peoples” may be originally belonging to the regions where there are ample rainfalls and the rivers are flowing perennially well for 24 hours and 12 months. Preferably those river shall not be Ice frozen like the Siberian “Lena” or desert friendly like Nile. Surprisingly the annual flow of Nile is substantially less than other large rivers of the earth.

Please see: http://www.rev.net/~aloe/river/

(4) Sea Peoples should not be like the "Cow Shepherd" Guanches, who were absolutely not interested in boating and fishing. Rather they happily cultivated at the sea-shores.

(5) So any individual name, place or river name which starts with “supportive” prefix like “Go”, “Ga”, “Gua” etc. may have more chances of belonging to the Shepherd peoples like Yedus, Kanhs, Gwala, Gosi and Gaderias (Hill and Plain Peoples) and less chances of belonging to the Phoenicians (Sea or Ship Peoples).

(6) Phoenicians can be mostly suspected (!) to be named after and led by the ancient “Pani” or “Phani” peoples. These Phani peoples were originally a group of religious priestly peoples. But by accepting the prohibited trades of fishing, shipping, import and export by sea travel, they would have been considered relegated to the grade of trading community by the mainstream of religious priestly peoples. “Pan” was the currency ($) of those days, and Pani peoples were earning dollars from everywhere, so they would have been mockingly named as Pani or Phani or Phoenicians that may be equivalent of Dollarians in the present context.

Pictographically, Phoenicians could have been represented as #@$*$$*$$$*$$$$. ... (Joke please!)

Obviously the juggernaut of the Phoenician’s Global Business Revolution was not supposed to be halted by a few religious edicts from the Vedas.

Phani people were also highly reputed as the ship designers. (Turbine propelled ships? ...Perhaps not!)

(7) Being religious people, the fair colored Phanis could have mostly originated at Himalayas (Kingdom of Emeleus) and North Gangatic plains. However due to their business tendencies, they would have later on spread to the various port cities at the sea shores of Indus valley, Dwarka, Maharashtra, Malayala (Kerala), Tamilnadu, Orissa (Kalinga), Bengal and in the most profitable manner up to the Kingdom of Atlas at now sunken Indonesia. So Atlantis sinking at Indonesia would have affected the Phoenicians in the worst possible ways and their survivors would have been forced to migrate to the non-sunken parts of South Asia and other parts of the world.

(8) Phoenicians enterprise could not have been accomplished by hymn chanting and managing Phani priests alone. So Fish People, River People and Boat peoples were needed. Such peoples were and are still available in abundance all across South and SE Asia along numerous big and small rivers and lakes. These peoples were to form the major working force of the Phoenicians. The highest among such Boat Peoples were Mall or Mallah. Hope Melkarta (Active God of Malla) can be better understood in this perspective. Other segments of the Boat Peoples were Nishad, Navik, Mahi or Manjhi, Kevat, Koli, Machhera, Machhuara. Sounds something like Machhu-Pichhu? However similar words shall sound an alert for possible Phoenician connections.

(9) Pulastyi or Pulasati or Pelset peoples may have a slightly different story. These original peoples of Sri Lanka were expert sea sailors and were the descendents and followers of the great ancient Sage Pulastya (Polset). However in between Saint Pulastya’s grandson Ravana turned out to be the AntiGod and made a catastrophic war for global domination against the God. He forced the Pulasati peoples to fight against the God. After the defeat, the Pulasati peoples in large numbers left the beautiful but burnt down Sri Lanka in utter disgust. They would have found it easier to join the combined Phoenician front then.

(10) The expertise for big constructions wherever required, would have been provided by God Vishwakarma or his followers. This was the usual practice of Vishwakarma. Sometimes this too flouted the spirit of Vedas as they generally advocated the non-interference with the ecological balance.

(11) Regarding Shardhana peoples or Isle of Sardinia, I can not say much except that they may the devotees of Mother Goddess Sharda. Sharda is the Goddess of wisdom, intelligence and education. Based upon this, I understand that they may be some subgroup of the Phani Peoples.

(12) The name Moor or Morocco itself is laden with presence of the root MR. This indicates the Indo-Indonesian MeRu or Sacred Mountain in Sanskrit. This is unequivocally present in the Sumerian SuMeRu, Cambodian KhMeRu and Egyptian pyramid MR. This may speak volumes about the real orientations.

(13) However the recruitment of available local warriors and nearby mercenaries for strengthening the Sea Peoples in Med Sea can not be ruled out and was always on the cards.

(14) If the above all is true, then Aden may be perhaps the biggest congregation of Phoenicians outside the Indo-Atlantean Region.

(15) If all above is true, then Atlantis may be a Phoenician influenced city and the Phoenicians may be an important part of the Atlantean culture.

With Regards...

IP: 210.214.154.104

Riven
Member

Posts: 1655
From: Canada
Registered: May 2003

posted 08-13-2003 14:49     Click Here to See the Profile for Riven     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very well said Rajesh. Makes more sense than what I've read so far in terms of Archaeological confusion to the Phoenician origin. Herodotus stated they were from the Erythraean coast.

So Far;

ATLAS-The NW Africa,Morrocco.(Berbers,Mesh'wesh,Pharusii,)
GADEIRUS- Iberia Gades,(Cadiz),Spain,Olissipo(Lisbon)Portugal.

AMPHERES-Sicily,Sardinia,Malta.Italy?
EVAEMON- Cyrene,Atalantes,Algeria,Libya.(Capsians)

MNESEUS-Minoan Crete. King Minos.Amnisus
AUTOCHTHON-Argos.Attica,Mycenaeans(Greeks)

ELASSIPUS-Ephaesus?Aleppo,Sagalassos?(Turkey)
MESTOR-Mendes,Egypt(Mizraim,Egyptian father)?

AZAES- Nubia and Aethiopia,Macrobians.
DIAPREPES- Byblos,Sidon, Erythraean Phoenicians?

Feel free to comment people,remember two Eds are better than one. That's why Britains name twin boys Ed,and the Mexicans name them JoseA and JoseB.

The Mexicans don't have Barbeques because it's too hard to keep the beans on the grill

[This message has been edited by Riven (edited 08-16-2003).]

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