I would have to agree with xfx here; I see no evidence of any association beyond that of the tribe with their mountain range (i.e. Atlas Mountains). The Atlas Mountains were called "the Pillars of Heaven" by Herodotus; in true, Greek, syncratic form, Herodotus used a term from Greek architecture that his Greek readers would quickly and easily identify with - atlantes.

Please use the link shown below to understand what I mean.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0004&query=entry%3D%23988&layout=&loc=athrys

Respectfully,

Erick

ERICK:from "Was Atlantis a Phoenician city."

What would be your conclusion to the Egyptians having 4 cycles to our years.
How would you compare this to the 9000 years told to Solon.
Could Critias mean 36,000 years or 2250 years if you divide 4 into 9,which would put us at a respectable 2850 bC for the sinking of Atlantis.

Also it could be possible that Critias was intrigued by Herodotus and his maps.

Persia wanted to make 3 top priority expeditions in Africa: 1) against Carthage (which was postponed); 2) against the Siwa oasis held by Ammonians; and 3) against the hostile Ethiopians.

There is indeed an oasis chain through the desert -- from Thebes to the Siwa oasis. The routes and the oases are mapped on page 147 of the book Atlas of Ancient Archeology, by Jacketta Hawkes (1974).

That map depicts a route which started approximately 30 miles north of Thebes, then passed through 4 points in the desert before reaching Siwa.

The first stopping point is Hibis, which is merely a crossroads, with no oasis. The next three oases, in order, are Dakla, Farafra, and Bahariya oases. The final leg of that desert route normally led back to Memphis/Giza. However, the king of Persia had been instructed to send his troops into the desert, off the beaten track, for the last leg of their journey -- a 200 mile leg to the Siwa oasis. Unfortunately, 50,000 Persian soldiers vanished in a desert sandstorm, as soon as they vered off the main desert route.

The remainder of the Persian soldiers took a DIFFERENT route (which did not pass through the Siwa oasis), following a "RIDGE OF SAND" to a place where there they had been told there was a "table of the Sun", a place where food was available in unlimited quantities.

The Persian army did not bother to take any food with them, because they were confident of finding the "table of the sun". But instead they quickly ran out of food, at first eating grass, and then switching to cannibalizing each other.

Based on what Herodotus has told us, the Persians probably sent the main bulk of their army straight into the heart of the Sahara desert. (And when he returned from that expedition, the king of Persia thought the Egyptian people were laughing at the hardships his Persian army had endured.)

The connection (and potential source of disinformation) seems to be that the Persian expedition had guides who were "fish-eaters", and Herodotus also knew that a tribe of "fish-eaters" lived near the Pillars of Hercules. The ancient Egyptians were of the opinion that the Sahara was like the sand on a beach, and presumed that some body of water must lie beyond that beach.

Herodotus reported that you have to pass a lake to reach the headwaters of the Nile/Niger. If you start from Thebes, and head directly west, you would pass Lake Chad on your way to the Niger River.

These weapons are arrowheads of the Capsian/Oranian culture. The Capsian period began around 9000 BC in the northwest corner of Africa, and had spread to Egypt by roughly 6000 BC.

1) Ammon worship was established at the Fayum oasis in Northern Egypt; 2) Hershef/Harsaphe worship was established in middle Egypt near the Fayum (in the town which Greeks called Heracleopolis); 3) Khnum worship was established at the southern edge of Egypt; and 4) Doudoun worship was established in Nubia.

In 1st dynasty Egypt, king Ousaiphais dedicated a temple to Hershef at "Heracleopolis Magna", near the Fayum. This temple of Heracles Magna may possibly have influenced the Egyptian concept that Atlantis was near the pillars of Hercules.

Here is a description of Khnum's wife (whom the Egyptians equated to Neith, for issues involving Upper Egypt). This description is from the Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology.

"SATI(SATET) was one of Khnum's two wives., and as such a guardian goddess of the cataracts. According to Maspero, her name signifies 'she who runs like an arrow'. She is the archer who lets fly the river's current with the force and rapidity of an arrow. She is represented as a woman wearing the white crown of the South, flanked by two long horns. Like Neith, she often holds arrows and a bow in her hands. She was worshipped in the extreme south of Egypt, where her favorite abode was the island of Seheil. She gave her name to the first Nome of Upper Egypt, which was called Ta Setet, the 'land of Sati'. Its capital was Abu, 'City of the Elephant', the Elephantine of the Greeks, where Sati took her place in the Temple of Khnum in company with Anuket."

The "land of Sati" at Elephantine may have helped Solon to suggest that the land of Neith and Atlantis contained many Elephants.

And Seti's island was called "Seheil", which means "coastland" in modern Semitic languages. This may tie in with the ancient Egyptian notion that the Sahara desert was a "coastland" in front of the Ocean.

In Plato's story of Atlantis, these invading ram/sheep/goat people, who married up with Neith/Sati, seem to belong to the Atlantean tribe of Eumelus (whose name means "rich in sheep").

I would like to call your attention also to a book called The Origin of the Zodiac, by Rupert Gleadow (published 1968 in New York). This book uses a date of 2767 BC for the origin of the Sothic calendar, based on the star Sirius, which is practically the same as the date you cited.

BUT Gleadow also mentions another Egyptian calendar which dates back to Dynasty 0, and uses the star Spica, rather than Sirius as the measuring point.

The Capsian people then moved into Kenya.

Obviously "something" must have deflected the progress of the Capsians, and drove them out of Egypt. It seems there were two related issues. 1) the arrival of superior weapon technolgy (= Neith/Athena); and 2) the arrival of neolithic farming (=Osiris).

Archaeology of the Fayum can be used as a demonstration the approximate date when neolithic Osiris arrived in Egypt.

Capsians ruled during the Fayum B period, from 6000 BC to 5000 BC. http://www.petrie.ucl.ac.uk/digital_egypt/fayum/fayumb.html

And neolithic (Osiris) Fayum A period occurred between 5200 BC to 4000 BC. http://www.petrie.ucl.ac.uk/digital_egypt/fayum/neolithic.html

Here is a map which depicts the arrival of Old Neolithic into Egypt from the Levant. The color Purple is used on this map for the Old Neolithic (Osiris) people. http://www.petrie.ucl.ac.uk/digital_egypt/fayum/neolitafric.html

Also Herodotus stated in book II,Euterpe that the Heliopolitan Priests were best skilled in Egyptian History. Also he stated that sea shells were found and salt damaged the pyramids.

[This message has been edited by Riven (edited 07-28-2003).]

As you suggested, Heliopolis was greatly respected in ancient Egypt, where it was the number 3 city, ranking behind only Thebes (for Southern Egypt) and Memphis (for Northern Egypt). It grew into the modern city of Cairo. Heliopolis specialized in taking historical trivia about pre-dynastic Egypt, and recasting that data with theological spin. The Egyptian name for that city meant "pillar", implying that Heliopolis provided the "support" for dynastic government.

A technology advance was indeed made at roughly that time. Obsidian had been discovered at Pantelleria island around 6000-5500 BC. And it is known that obsidian was distributed to North Africa from Pantelleria.

Therefore Neith represented the advance of making tools, especially arrowheads and hunting tools, using obsidian from the middle of the Mediterranean region.

This was a technological advance over the older "flint and chalcedony" based tools of the Capsian culture. It allowed Neolithic farmers to push out the Capsian herders.

Archaeology has shown that within roughly 300 years of the time when obsidian sources were discovered in mid-Med, a so-called "neolithic package" of grains and domesticated animals was adopted all around the western half of the Mediterranean Sea.

So Egypt was not the only region which was adopting the "neolithic package" at that time. Egyptian myths chose to name this "neolithic package" phenomenon the arrival of the (Egyptian) god Osiris, who travelled the world, bringing civilization with him.

However, it was not possible for those Early Neolitic people to grow crops in the Sahara Desert (or to push west of the Cyrene), which was drying out at the time Osiris arrived in Egypt.

And here is a corresponding map of the Fayum around 3000 BC. http://www.petrie.ucl.ac.uk/digital_egypt/maps/fayuma.html

What you are seeing in these maps is the phenomenon of an "island in a lake", which the ancients mentioned in regard to the predyanastic activity of Thoth.

In other words, the whole Fayum basin was filling up, beginning with the side closest to the Nile. Silt deposits were sinking into the lake every year; and navigation became impossible between the lake and the Nile. And since the Fayum lake was absorbing less water during flood season, all the land downstream from the Fayum was experiencing progressively HIGHER water levels during the annual Nile floods.

Eventually people started to flee from the Fayum.

Then both Northern and Southern Egypt decided they needed to stop the population emigration, by carrying out massive renewal projects that widened and/or deepened the Bahr Yousef canal between the Fayum lake and the Nile. Also at that time, the banks of the Nile around Memphis were reinforced and raised, to protect Memphis from damage during the annual Nile Floods.

These renewal projects were the basis behind unifying Northern Egypt with Southern Egypt, during dynasties 0 and 1.

Earlier in this thread you'll see we talked about Mitochondria DNA,passed solely from the mother. You can see the A group evolving across the Bering Straite around 7-9,000bC and an X group at 15,000bC.

As for your question Tribes of Atlantis?
Feel free to post about the different Tribes that could involve Atlantis. Mayans,Libyan's,Phoenicians,Azorians,Iberians,Aecheans,Celts,Norse,even American Indians.

http://www.mitomap.org/mitomap/WorldMigrations.pdf

Here is a fairly thorough link to the Fayum district.
http://fayum.arts.kuleuven.ac.be/map.html

Scroll down to at least the 6th artifact on this link to see the Mauritania/Mali artifacts.
http://www.stoneageartifacts.com/html/Artifact-North%20Africa.html

A granular cryptocrystalline variety of Quartz - found in layers and nodules in Sedimentary rocks, typically light in color. Technically, it is a "rock" - not a mineral - but it is usually classified as a variety of Quartz for convinence's sake, since it is usually composed largely of quartz grains with few other minerals involved. Similar to flint, but light in color, and formed in a somewhat different environment.

Upstream from them lived the unfriendly Ethiopians whose land is full of wild beasts and broken up by high mountains where they say the Lixos

http://www.phoenicia.org/proutes.html

http://www.phoenicia.org/index.shtml

This occured around 535-540bC.
Solon was in Sais,Egypt around 594 -590bC.

http://www.phoenicia.org/pythagoras.html

The Great Pyramid
5 Twins of Atlantis
0101 Computer language

By the way,if you split your hard drive(C (D You can save that never ending knowledge on the D: drive without fear of windows crashing. Just never delete the extended partition D: if you have to reinstall windows.(DOS screen) If you don't have a burner,CD-Recorder,get one. It's worth the investment to save gigillions of info!!

Pliny wrote this about the same time when Rome had decided to use the Labyrinth (the world's largest temple complex) as a rock quarry. The last renovation of the Labyrinth had taken place around 800 BC. Initially the Labyrinth had served as a convention center where all 21 nomes of Egypt sent representatives.

Pliny says that 12 kings of Egypt contributed to the construction of the Fayum Irrigation District and Labyrinth, beginning around 3500 BC, and ending with Amenemhet III, who ruled up to the Hyksos invastion. http://www.catchpenny.org/labyrin.html

A North canal had been constructed out of the Fayum lake, to bring water to the Giza plateau, for use in building the great pyramids.

This is explained in the following link: http://thepump.org/art2earlystages2.html

About a thousand years after the great pyramids were finished (and therefore during the invasions of Libyan Sea peoples around 1200 BC), the invading-but-defeated Meshwesh tribes were permitted to settle along the North canal of the Fayum district. I presume the Meshwesh were required to renovate the North canal, as a condition of their re-settlement into that region.

Herodotus on Moeris
As for the other kings, they could tell me of no great works which had been produced by them, and they said that they had no renown except only the last of them, Moiris: he (they said) produced as a memorial of himself the gateway of the temple of Hephaistos which is turned towards the North Wind, and dug a lake, about which I shall set forth afterwards how many furlongs of circuit it has, and in it built pyramids of the size which I shall mention at the same time when I speak of the lake itself. He, they said, produced these works, but of the rest none produced any.
Herodotus. Histories II .101
http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/herodotus/moeris.htm

Temple of Hephaistos.
Could the Phaistos disk in Crete have come from here or its cult?

Nommo and the 12 subunits into which Nommo divided himself (as per the Dogon), may represent Narmer (legendary Egyptian king in dynasty 0) and the 12 tribes or kings which contributed to building the Labyrinth.

Filling the Fayum lake with water is an activity which resembles the Dogon legend that a "spaceship" filled a large bowl-shaped depression with water, and then taught people about the star Sirius.

So this could explain the Dogon title of "master of water" for Nommo's people.

The link I posted yesterday (about "Pharoah's pump"), demonstrates that the blocks for building the great pyramids may have been lifted by a system of water locks, fed by water from Fayum lake.

Here is the link about that "Real Eve" migration out Africa. http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/realeve/interactive/migration.html

http://www.africaguide.com/features/trvafmag/016.htm

According to the Dogon, these sene seeds are ‘germinated’ from 266 fundamental ‘seeds or signs’, which the Dogon represent by four circular drawn figures. Likewise, quantum science has identified more than 200 fundamental particles of matter, organized into four groups based on a property called ‘spin’.

http://autohuna.com/DogonMythologyScience.htm

For instance, the word po comes from a root which means “beginning”. A careful study of the Egyptian hieroglyphic language reveals that each of these key Dogon words and phrases also exist in Egyptian hieroglyphs – pronounced the same way and carrying the same multiple meanings. Furthermore, the Egyptian words are written with glyphs which often duplicate the scientific diagrams represented by the Dogon drawings. In fact, in many cases the Egyptian glyphs actually expand on the Dogon scientific references, becoming more specific as they descend toward deeper science. For instance, the Egyptian hieroglyphic words which describe how matter is created are written with diagrams which define the primary ways that strings from string theory intersect each other.

http://autohuna.com/DogonMythologyScience.htm

Perhaps the most interesting thing that the elders told Griaule was their cosmology. They told him of their knowledge that the moon is dry and barren, that Saturn - the star of limiting place - has rings around it and that Jupiter - dana tolo - has four large moons. They knew that the Milky Way is a spiral galaxy of stars, and that the planets move in elliptical orbits around the Sun.
http://ufos.about.com/library/weekly/aa111599.htm

http://ufos.about.com/library/weekly/aa111599.htm

This story in Herodotus tends to confirm, to a degree, Plato's contention that the Egyptians admitted Greek civilization, as descended from Hephaestus and Athena/Neith, had started 1000 years earlier than Egyptian civilization.

This information could be helpful in determining who actually were the "ancient Athenians" or "Ancient Greeks" in Plato's legend of Atlantis. (Herodotus says they were the Phrygians.)

Book 2 of Herodotus contains the information about a people older than the Egyptians.