Here is a link to the Dartmouth guys. Perhaps this explanation of Minyan pottery may tend to de-mythologize Paul Schlieman.

quote from: http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/classics/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/9.html

"Until about 1960, Gray Minyan was often identified as the pottery of northern invaders who destroyed EH civilization ca. 1900 B.C. and introduced MH material culture into the Greek peninsula. However, Caskey's excavations at Lerna as well as more recently excavated sequences at several other sites have made it abundantly clear that Gray Minyan, rather than being new in the MH period, is the direct descendant of the fine gray burnished pottery of the EH III Tiryns culture. Moreover, it seems likely that the Black/Argive variety of Minyan is nothing other than an evolved version of the EH III "Dark slipped and burnished" class. Thus Minyan pottery, if it is to be associated with an intrusive population element at all, must be connected with an EH III "invasion" ca. 2200/2150 B.C. and not with a MH one ca. 1900 B.C. Furthermore, there is nothing particularly "northern" about the ancestry of the EH III progenitors of MH Minyan except that they almost certainly came to the northeastern Peloponnese from central Greece (i.e. from the north with respect to the Peloponnese). How they arrived, or alternatively developed indigenously, in central Greece is a question which has yet to be resolved."
endquote

quote from: http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/001ShortEntries/SEMinis.html

MINYADS are called the daughters of Minyas who, becoming insane, conceived a craving for human flesh, and drew lots for their children. The lot fell upon Leucippe 4 to contribute her son Hippasus 11 to be torn to pieces. Some have said that the MINYADS were Alcathoe, Arsippe, and Leucippe 4; others say Alcathoe and Leuconoe 1; and still others Alcathoe, Arsinoe 5, and Leucippe 4 [Lib.Met.10; Ov.Met.4.1ff.; Plu.GQ.38].

Minyas is the man who owned a marvellous treasure in Orchomenus (the city in northern Boeotia). The Minyans, people of northern Boeotia are called after him, and the ARGONAUTS were often referred to as Minyans. Minyas was son either of Chryses 1 (son of Poseidon), or of Aeolus 1, or of Orchomenus 3, or of Poseidon himself. Besides the so called MINYADS [see above] Minyas was father of Orchomenus 5 and Clymene 3. His wife was Euryanassa 1 [Arg.3.1093; Hes.CWE.84; Lib.Met.10; Ov.Met.4.1, 4.168; Pau.9.36.4, 10.29.6; Plu.GQ.38].

From : John B. Hare <brujo@cruzio.com>
Sent : Friday, January 16, 2004 5:25 PM
To : beau berger <beau3210@hotmail.com>
Subject : Re: Questions about Myths of Crete and Pre-Hellenic Europe

This is a well known hoax on the part of Schliemann's grandson, who apparently had some issues about living in the shadow of his famous predecessor. Not a shred of physical evidence was ever produced to back up these assertions, and the younger Schliemann's thesis was riddled with factual inaccuracies and fraud.

Refer to Lost Continents, by L. Sprague de Camp (Dover Publ, 1954), pp. 45-6, which I heartily recommend.

Best Regards,

quote:

---

Riven,
One of the reasons why the Phoenicians were home-bound before 1450 BC is that Middle Minoan Crete was so powerful at that time.

Then from 1450-1200 BC, Mycenaen Greece replace Crete as the trading superpower of the Mediterranean. So for this era, too, the Phoenicians tended to be home-bound.

---

Let's give that statement some deep thought.

Who was powerful?

Who controlled the mediterannean prior to the Phoenicians?

The Hittites controlled Asia.

Hittite records discuss a group called Ahhiyawa, which was said to be a "great king". There were only about 5 Great Kings, from the Hittite point of view. (For example, Assyria and Egypt counted as Great Kings. I don't know all the others.)

Most scholars follow the assumption that Ahhiyawa was a reference to the Greek Achaens.

Ahhiyawa was meddling in the affairs of at least two regions on the Turkish coast during 1400-1200 BC. Those regions were Millawanda (=greek Miletos) and Lucca (=greek Lycia).

The Greek myths emphasize that the city Tiryns sent several militant Greek people went to Lycia, but those people remained Greeks. For examples:

1) Proetus was banished there, but soon returned with an army from his father-in-law (and he brought a team of Cyclopean architects from Lycia to build Tiryns into a fortress).

2) After Proetus returned to Tiryns, Proetus sent a dissident named Bellerophon to Lycia. Belerophon later migrated east to Cilicia. And Bellerophon also is said to have killed the Chimera, which was a confederacy of 3 totem animals, and which had been born from Typhon (=Baal Saphon, who resided at Ugarit).

3) Heracles was banished to Lycia, and ordered to serve Queen Omphalos for one year. During that year, Heracles had a son named named (something like) Tyrsenus who eventually migrated west and became the Etruscans.

Based on archaeology, the Inachus River basin may have been settled (around 2200 BC) by a culture called (for lack of a better archaeological term) the "Tiryns culture". http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/classics/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/8.html

If so, then Phoroneus (the first man of the Greeks) would have come from the Tiryns culture, before he founded Argos.

But archaeology alse uses the term Lefkandi culture (2400-2200 BC, located in Euboea/Iolcus/etc), which seems to have
interacted with an indigenous Korakou culture (also 2400-2200 BC, but living in
the Peloponnese and the Lake Trichonis regions.

So the Tiryns culture may have originated as meeting point between the Lefkandi and Korakou culures. And eventually the Tiryns culture evolved into the Achaeans/Ahhiyawa, which caused so much trouble for the Hittites during 1400-1200 BC.

In summary, Ahiyyawa/Achaeans may have ruled the Mediterranean in the last two centuries before Phoenicians turned into a maritime power. And when Bellerophon killed Ugarit's Chimera, that seems to have permitted the other Phoenician cities to replace Ugarit in the role of maritime merchants.

(I have omitted mentioning that Sardinia was trying to dominate the copper mines of Cyprus at that same time.)

Carlos Parada's website makes the chronology sensible. But I am amazed at the implications.

The myths say that the first three kings of Crete came from Arcadia, at approximately the same time as the flood of Deucalion, ca. 1450 BC (when the caldera of Thera's volcano collapsed). These three kings were sons of Arcadia's evil king Lycaon 2, whom Zeus eventually destroyed by thunderbolts. http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Crete.html

But then (3 generations after the Flood of Deucalion) a group of Hellenes (i.e. Aeolians and Dorians) sailed from Thessaly and seized Crete, expelling the Arcadians.

It was during the reign of these Thessalians that Zeus abducted Europa from Phoenicia and brought Europa to Crete, where she intermarried with the Thessalians and become the mother of mythical king Minos 1.

quote from: http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Europa.html
"After having children with Zeus, Europa married Asterius 3, son of Tectamus, son of Dorus 1, son of Hellen 1, son of Deucalion 1, the man who survived the Flood. Tectamus had sailed to Crete with Aeolians and Pelasgians, becoming on his arrival king of the island. It is during the time when he was king of Crete that Zeus carried off Europa from Phoenicia. Tectamus' mother was daughter of Cretheus 1, son of Aeolus 1, brother of Dorus 1."
endquote

This demonstrates that the Greek mythology was almost totally ignorant about how great Crete had been BEFORE the flood of 1450 BC. The mythical kings Minos 1 and 2 of Crete are said to be descendents of Europa. (i.e. the mythical Minos 2 lived at the same time as Perseus, who founded Mycenae.) http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/MythicalChronology.html

quote from: http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/classics/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/18.html

So, it would seem likely that these two cultures would have the closest ties to Atlantis as is also evident from the fact that the Egyptians told Solon the story.

If the Phoenicians came from the Cannanites as suggested, then it would be relative to think that they were tutored in SeaFaring from the Egyptians.

If the Phoenicians came from the return voyage of Polyponesia and Australia, relating them to S.India and the Erythranaean Sea,Punt(Socotra)etc...prior to 3,000 bC, then it would seem possible that they tutored the Egyptians in SeaFaring.

We are faced with many puzzles here which concludes that in lies or myths we find Truth and in Truth we find lies.

We all want solid evidence which we can only root out by our theories and what is not possible. So we investigate our propositions which is extremely hard to do because of misguided or false facts,erroneous dating and who exactly was battling Atlantis, the Creteans,Egyptians,Hellenics or Phoenicians?

So we can propose some theories such as;

Did the Atlanteans initially settle in Crete within the Mediterranean?

The Story seems to suggest W.Africa as the initial settlement evolving into the Atalantes and a possible jump to Malta and Crete which seems to Jive according to Atlas and the Herodotus histories.

Then we have the second settlement of Gadeirus linking to the Etruscans then to Peleponnesia then to Crete which coincides with Ampheres on the North side and Evaemon on the South side. Next we see Mneseus then Autochthon relating to Crete and Peleponnesia.

Either way it seems that Crete was the focal point to the Eastern Mediterranean that linked the Hellenics and the Egyptians.

Then we have the colonizing of Mestor and Elassipus and finally Azaes and Diaprepes.

So these Kings should also suggest the pattern of Atlantean migrations and civilization which seems to lead us to some hidden factors such as the numerous stone structures in Western Europe including Stonehenge, the structures in Malta and Crete, and the worldwide Pyramid building Cultures which leads us to parallels in civilizations including the Tritonis and Kent Amenti mysteries coinciding with lake Trichonis,The Sacred Lake of Mut(Ascheru), The Temple at Karnak,The Labyrinth and the various Sun Temples in S.America which all seems to focus from the central point of Atlantis.

I apologize if I haven't been posting much lately because of my busy work schedule and maintaining a family as well as looking after my 78 year old mother!

However, I am here to stay for my love and passion of History and the Atlantis mysteries and NOT my wallet or bank account which I have proved to all of you in providing and disclosing any information I can to you all as well as my non commercialized and non profit website!!

I only wish for the Truth to be known.

quote:

---

"The main evergreen forest is born a joyous miracle at dawn the abundant monument increases to unite the future arrival and remain loyal to the secret of creation."

---

Best Wishes

[R] Riven [R]

The Phoenicians lived in the land of tall straight cedar trees. That is why they were so good at building boats. They had the raw material (long wood planks) for boats. (The same issue appears in the Gilgamesh legend when people in Lebanon build boats for Gilgamesh.)

issue# 2:
Poseidon received "the sea" as his lot when Zeus Poseidon and Hades divided up the world. Somehow, this is the way in which Atlantis started.

re: the "border" between Zeus and Poseidon.
Plato said that Atlantis controlled/influenced Europe as far east as Tyrennhia. Logically speaking, I presume this means the Tyrhennian SEA (which was a piece of the realm of Poseidon) rather than the LANDMASS (tyrhennia) later settled by the Etruscans.

The island of Lipari was at the edge of the Tyrhennian Sea. The Greek Myths explain very specifically that Zeus had dominion on Lipari, and he stationed Aeolus at Lipari to control the rogue winds.

The name Tyrrhenia derives from Tarhun, an ancient god of Anatolia who seems to have been swept west by the Tursha/Etruscans when they joined the Sea Peoples movement.

The mythical Tyrsenus (i.e. first settler of Etruscan lands) was claimed as a son of the greek Heracles. http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Romulus.html

And since Plato was telling this Atlantis theme to the Tyrant of Syracuse Sicily, who ruled near Lipari, I would not be surprised if Plato wants his audience to accept both the Etruscans and the previous residents of the Tyrrhenian Sea (Lipari and Aeolus) as pseudo-Greeks.

In that case, the ancient (shore-hugging) obsidian routes from Lipari, along the coasts of the Italian peninsula, would also be regarded as pseudo-Greek territory.

Therefore the sea-realm of Atlantis (i.e. Poseidon's lot, as contrasted to Zeus's allotment of territory) would stretch WEST FROM THE TYRRHENIAN SEA AND THE ISLAND OF LIPARI.

Based on LACK of mention in Greek myths, I presume the obsidian sources on Sardinia and Pantelleria were outside the control of Zeus. Modern science tells us that Sardinia marketed to the northwest Mediterranean, while Pantellaria marketed to the southwest.

Historical activities on the island of Malta are either reflected in the mythical greek Triton, or else Malta belonged in the realm of Poseidon.

Here is a link which explains the Hittite/Hurrian/Luwian god named Tarkhun. http://www.geocities.com/cas111jd/anatolia/hittites/hittite_stormgod.htm

And here is a discussion about the region around Duluk. quote from: http://www.turkishdailynews.com/past_probe/11_01_98/featurep.htm
"Today, the small hamlet of Duluk (Doliche) in southeastern Turkey does not reflect the significance of its past glories. Once an important religious center during the Hittite and Roman periods, Duluk is now only a hamlet surrounded by vineyards, pistachio nuts and historic ruins.

Located 12 kilometers to the north of Gaziantep, Duluk in ancient times found itself at the crossroads of many different cultures, with its own history dating back to around 6,000 B.C. One of the main reasons that Duluk achieved great importance was due to the high-quality flint stone found in the area, resulting in the migration of people from other regions.

As a result of excavations done here, it has been discovered that the first migrants lived in a large cave known as "Sarli Magara." Sarli Magara of Duluk is the site of one of the oldest known human habitations in Anatolia.

The people began to use flint stone to make tools for hunting as well as for agricultural purposes. Later the stone as well as the tools were exported to other villages in the Firat valley. Experts believe that the manufacture and export of stone tools constituted the birth of industry in Gaziantep.

One of the earliest civilizations in this region was that of the Hittites, and according to written documents, the temple "Baal" was build here for the god Tesup, one of the most important of the Hittite gods. Through him Duluk became an important religious center.

After the fall of the Hittite empire, the city maintained its importance during the Persian and Hellenistic periods. However it was during the Commagene era that it became one of the four most important cities in the kingdom. Duluk was also important during the Roman period, and Tesup was known during the Roman era as "Duluk Jupiter." The decline of Duluk came during the Byzantine period and was replaced by Zeugma (Belkis), which had become an important religious and administrative city for the empire.

Today, the remains of ancient Duluk are on Keber hill, on the east side of the railroad near Duluk village; however, this area is now covered with vineyards and pistachio trees. After a short walk one is able to visit Sarli Magara and a church named Kaya Mezari, which in ancient times was used as an underground temple."
endquote

Sorry for being unavailable for more than a month, as I am still busy in almost all three shifts to help enhance and meet my company’s huge production target.

However after reading one of your discussion at earlier page, I could not restrain myself from commenting. You seem to have searched a great link. That may make a big finding.

Indian Uttar Pradesh Brahmins:
http://www.racearchives.com/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=78

Indian Uttar Pradesh Chamars:
http://www.racearchives.com/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=79

In my humble opinion the bandwidth between these above two groups forms the central core of one end of the spectrum of humanity. Almost all the Central and East Europeans and most Russians generally fall under this category. This can be roughly called as the “Sanskrit” group.

The studies provided by those links may not be very much extensive yet. But I propose that the Dravida, Sri Lanka and Basque group may form the bandwidth of the central core for another end of the spectrum of humanity. That may cover West Europeans, North Africans, Berbers and may be Red Indians etc. This can be roughly called as the “Dravida-Basque” group.

Both of these groups may find their origins and separation within the Indo-Atlantean region as a unit. Their ultimate separation could have caused the epical war and the consequential end of Atlantis.

However to substantiate any such claims, many more scientific studies may be needed.

Meanwhile, kudos to you and Respected Riven for keeping on such a huge and informative discussion...

Until recently, the oldest written records known to us were Sumerian. But according to an Associated Press Report of December 15, 1998, clay tablets discovered in southern Egypt may represent the earliest known writings. These tablets have been dated to between 3300 and 3200 BC.

>>This fits in nicely with Thoth bringing the art of writing to Egypt, where it should also be applicable that the oldest writing should be found somewhwere west of Egypt perhaps around Lake Tritonis???, since Thoth came from there and Atlantis.

The further back the Egyptian language is traced, the more affinities it reveals to the Semitic languages of the Ancient Near East. Called the new stone age, this is dated to the era between 8000 and 4000 BC.

>>Perhaps it should be the other way around where the Semitic relates to the Egyptians.

But in Upper Egypt, three sites identified with the modern villages of Badari, Deir Tasa, and Nagada have preserved Neolithic artifacts that apparently date as far back as 5000 BC.

Badari, Deir Tasa, and Nagada,5000 BC. About 4000 BC Tasian culture took on a more elaborate form, which first appeared near Badari,they used an eye paint made from powdered green malachite that was probably imported from the Sinai Peninsula.

>>So we should be able to find palettes older than Narmer,and an older chronology coming to light.

Some vases were made from basalt, while ivory was used for small bowls, ladles, and female figurines.

>>So,Elephants were being used around 4000 bC in Egypt.

The Badarians are thought to have possessed a degree of familiarity with the malleability of copper, although they apparently did not understand the fusion of metals.In the middle of the fifth millennium BC, the Badarians were succeeded in Upper Egypt (i.e., the south) by the Amrateans, who mark the real commencement of the predynastic period (c. 4500-3100 BC). They were more sedentary in nature than their predecessors, and they are thought to have been the first to attempt systematic cultivation of the Nile valley. In the Nagada I stage of Upper Egyptian culture, they became quite prominent, and expanded along the entire course of the Nile. Excavation of Amratean sites has shown that they cultivated and wove flax as well as manufactured a wide assortment of small copper tools and implements. Their basalt and alabaster vases were generally inferior to those of the Badarians, however, and in metallurgy they gave no indication of technical advances upon their predecessors.

>>The chronology of Pharaohs should go back to this time.

In the Nagada II phase, the Gerzean influence spread from Lower Egypt (i.e., the north), and paved the way for an urban and economic revolution in the upper reaches of the Nile. They were probably the first of the predynastic peoples to institute trade with Mesopotamia and India, and they were responsible for a wide expansion of agriculture. Whereas Amratean culture had depended on hunting to supplement the food derived from the cultivation of crops, the Gerzean economy was based wholly on agriculture, in which artificial irrigation probably played an important part. Cast-metal implements and weapons unearthed at Gerzean sites show that they had mastered the art of casting metal, and the use of copper in this period is indicative of extended trade with localities outside the Nile valley itself. From Asian sources came silver, lapis lazuli, lead, and other commodities, while cylinder seals that have been recovered from Gerzean graves are probably contemporary Mesopotamian products. Cosmetic techniques as practiced by the Badarians and Amrateans were developed in Gerzean culture, and palettes made in the shape of various animals were widely used for the pulverizing of green kohl or malachite for cosmetic purposes.
Whereas cemeteries that dated from an earlier period showed that the corpse was generally wrapped in some sort of covering and buried in a contracted position facing the west,Menes brought the "Two lands" under his united power, promulgated a body of laws that he claimed had been given to him by Thoth, and established the first historic dynasty.
He built his capital at Memphis, and according to Diodorus Siculus (first century BC Greek historian, author of the universal history, Bibliotheca historica of which only books one through five and 11 through 20 survive, out of 40) he, "taught the people to use tables, and couches, and...introduced luxury and an extravagant manner of life."
. 2613-2494 BC

>>The Gerzeans seem to relate closely to an Atlantean culture based society where King Menes could have been the one to have introduced Atlantean theosophies. We also noted that the bodies were buried facing the west.

Khufu (Greek Cheops) is the most important pharaoh of the Fourth Dynasty.
Chephren [Khafre] was no better than his predecessor; his rule was equally oppressive. The Egyptians can hardly bring themselves to mention the names of Cheops and Chephren, so great is their hatred of them; they even call the pyramids after Philitis, a shepherd who at that time fed his flocks in the neighborhood.

Chephren reigned for fifty-six years -- so the Egyptians reckon a period of over a hundred and six years, all told, during which the temples were never opened for worship and the country was reduced in every way to the greatest misery.

>>Could this Philitis relate to Jesus??? We also notice the "wicked" rule of these Pharaohs which seem to suggest their liberation from Atlantis,and a "Set" form of lifestyle????

"All the world fears time," says the Arab proverb. "But time fears the pyramids."

Menkaure, Khufu, Khafre.

Yes. Perhaps within 5 years or so the DNA backgrounds of various peoples will become clear.

Here is the most "isolated" group of people which I have found. http://www.racearchives.com/calc/haplo_profiles.asp?dbname=ychroms&popid=83

"Some time after 6,000 years ago, there arose a remarkable community of people on this island. As if from nowhere,"

>>Echoes my statement of a neanderthal tribe coming from the Atlantic Ocean NNW of Ireland.(Bathymetric map)Riven.

"It is interesting to note that the Egyptians, and the Dogon tribe in Africa, among others, used the same Dowth-like 'sun-wheel' symbols to signify a heliacal rising."

You have very rightly noticed the genetic isolation of Moroccan Berbers in league with Moroccan Arabs and North Africans.

As we know that all the big deserts on earth are situated on the western banks of the continents. May it be Kalahari, Atakama, Thar, Great Australian Desert or Nevada. But Sahara desert is the biggest of them. It would have been very difficult for the ancient humanity to cross this hot waterless desert before the death. So any population that thrived on the western coast of Sahara desert would have remained in complete seclusion for a very long time. The driest climate accompanied with heavy interbreeding could have given rise to some genetic peculiarities, which in the absence of intermixing with other gene pools still remains to be a unique one.

This may be the reason that they are genetically forming a distant fringe group.

It is also interesting to note that genetically these Moroccans are far far away from both Basques and the Indians, as if they have never touched each other.

Yes, I think pre- or early-dynastic Egypt does go back to 4000 BC or 5000 BC. But I doubt they were Pharaohs. The Old Kingom had kings, not Pharaohs.

Set came from the land of the Lotus-eaters. His favorite (some say his ONLY) food was lettuce.

quote from: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/set.htm
"His [Set's] favorite - some say only - food was the lettuce (which secreted a white, milky substance that the Egyptians linked to semen and was sacred to the fertility god Min), but even with this aphrodisiac, he was still thought to have been infertile.

Gaia gave birth to Uranus, and to Pontus (the Black Sea). Then Uranus (=the Roman Saturn) hid some of his Indo-European children away in various parts of the earth, including Tartarus which was located in the far west.

quote from: http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Gaia.html
"However, Uranus, hating his offspring, hid some or many of them away in a secret place on earth, or as some say, cast them into Tartarus..."
endquote

Cronus had the next kingship approximately 7000-5000 BC. He reigned over Thrace and Asia Minor, during the "golden Age. (For example the titan Prometheus was chained to a rock near Colchis. And the titan Atlas helped found Troy in Asia Minor. The Olympian goddess Demeter, whom Cronos swallowed, represents the origin of agriculture which occurred
in-or-near Asia Minor.)

Cronus was castrated by an obsidian sickle on the Phlegrae peninsula, at the extreme southwest of Thrace, in a region which the Greeks called Chalcidice.

quote from: http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Gigantomachy.html
The GIANTS were conceived when the blood of the castrated Cronos dropped from heaven upon the Earth, but Gaia (some say) brought forth them in Phlegrae (Pallene), the westernmost of the three peninsulas jutting into the Aegean Sea from Chalcidice.

The course of civilization was then ready to enter the Chalcolithic age near Vinca, approximately 5000 BC.

You raise some interesing concepts with your last post,as dwells in my mind.

Uranus=Black Sea
Kronos=Thrace/Asia Minor 7-5k bC.

Could the Black Sea be referred to the Underworld? Considering it's flooding around 7k bC? There must be a reason it's called BLACK.

And then there's Robert Ballard.

Would this have been in a westerly direction back then?

Kronos is also around this time,which all seems to fit in with my destruction theory of 6482 bC.

I shudder to think Atlantis could have been in the Black Sea considering Atlas and Troy as you mentioned Atalante,and the fact that these are key characters in the Atlantis story!

It could be possible that Atlas came from the Lake Tritonis area and later went to Troy.

Then there's Lake Trichonis.

It gets rather confusing with all these parallels or "mirror images" we see between the cultures.

The age of this destruction coincides with the equinox around 6482 bC that is ruled in the time of Gemini. The Twin. Mirror Image. Yin Yang,Male,Female,Min,Mon,......Life,Death.10,01.

All Souls Day.

Another thought in mind is when we think of important names in Egypt,Greece and Atlantis that two letters seem to stand out for some reason.

But there were 6 "older" Olympian gods whom Cronus swallowed. This made Cronus super-pregnant. (i.e. It is marking a period when the advancing NON-Indo-Europeans who were Europe's first farmers lived in a compact "cocoon-like", or womb-like, situation.)

One of those 6 "older Olympian" gods was Hades, who represents the Hatti people of Asia minor. Greek myth seems to say that there was an entrance portal to the "underworld" near Troy, and thus in the land of Hatti.

Cronus also swallowed Demeter, who represents agriculture. And in spitting her out, Cronus started the spread of barley and bread-wheat around the world. These two cereal grains originated in the Zagros mountains (or perhaps in eastern Syria).

Since Hades had his allotment of territory in Asia Minor, Zeus and Poseidon contested with each other for the rest of the world.

Perhaps flint from Duluk Turkey was used in the sickle which castrated Uranus.

But most likely, Cronus was castrated by a sickle made from Melos obsidian.

The next two Olympian gods to apppear (i.e. the 7th and 8th gods) were Artemis and Apollo, who were born on the Cyclades island of Delos. These two deities seem to represent the Pelasgians of Arcadia, who appear in Peloponesian Greek mythology.

1) Hesiod says that Chaos gave birth to Gaia.

2) Philo says that Hypsistos (El-elioun, the all-high) was the father of Uranus. And Hypsistos lived as a hunter-gatherer, i.e. among the wild beasts. Eventually Hypsistos was torn to pieces by wild beasts.

3) Norse myths claim that a sacred wild cow (named Audumla) licked a glacier long enough, and melted some of the glacier, to reveal the first human being (named Buri), who was the grandfather of Odin (=Zeus).

The Greek myths say she went to the island of Sicily. This may seem surprizing, in view of what modern science tell us about the spread of civilization.

But here is what the Greek Mythology Link of Carlos Parada says about Demeter. http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Demeter.html

As you can read in that link, the classical Greek myths reported (erroneously) that Demeter did not have any grain before she went to Sicily.

But modern archaeology wants us to understand that Demeter discovered "obsidian" on the islands around Sicily (and began using the new sources of obsidian for making sickles), rather than presuming (erroneously) that Demeter invented cereal grain on Sicily.

It seems that the Sesklo culture may represent a people from Greek myths called the Giants, who fought and lost a war against the Olympians.

But I want to give special atention to the "Kephala" culture (3300-3200 BC), which the Dartmouth guys (in the above link) seem to suggest was centered at Attica, and spread out into some adjacent islands in the Aegean Sea.

Perhaps we should identify this culture with what Plato calls "ancient Athens" in his Atlantis dialogues.

These people were IMPORTING copper, gold, and silver items (during 3300-3200 BC), from the Vinca culture far to the north of Attica. But soon, the Cyclades island of Serifos set up a copper mine, and the Cyclades island Sifnos began mining gold and silver. This eliminated the need to import copper from outside Greece.

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ABSTRACTS Volume 57 Number 2, March/April 2004

KINGDOM OF THE SANDS

How a Saharan slave-trading people made the desert bloom

BY DAVID KEYS

During the past six years, an archaeological survey in the Fazzan area of southern Libya, led by David Mattingly of the University of Leicester, has revealed that a remarkable, yet obscure desert civilization known to the Romans as the Garamantes constructed almost a thousand miles of underground tunnels and shafts in a successful bid to mine long-buried fossil water.

Descended from Berbers and Saharan pastoralists, the Garamantes were likely present as a tribal people in the Fazzan by at least 1000 B.C. They first appeared in the historical record in the fifth century B.C., when Herodotus noted the Garamantes were an exceedingly numerous people who herded cattle (that grazed backward!) and who hunted "troglodyte Ethiopians" from four-horse chariots.

Archaeologists had excavated parts of the Garamantian capital, Garama, in the 1960s. But prior to recent investigations, most scholars still thought of the Garamantes as little more than desert barbarians living in one small town, a couple of villages, and scattered encampments. The research, however, now suggests that the Garamantes had about eight major towns (three of which have now been examined) and scores of other important settlements, and that they controlled a substantial state. "The new archaeological evidence is showing that the Garamantes were brilliant farmers, resourceful engineers, and enterprising merchants who produced a remarkable civilization," says Mattingly.

The success of the Garamantes was based on their subterranean water-extraction system, a network of tunnels known as foggaras in Berber. It not only allowed their part of the Sahara to bloom again--it also triggered a political and social process that led to population expansion, urbanism, and conquest. But in order to retain and extend their newfound prosperity, they needed above all to maintain and expand the water-extraction tunnel systems--and that necessitated the acquisition of many slaves.

Luckily for the Garamantes--but less so for their neighbors--Garamantian population growth gave the new Saharan power a demographic and military advantage over other peoples in Saharan and sub-Saharan Africa, enabling them to expand their territory, conquer other peoples, and acquire vast numbers of slaves.

By around A.D. 150 the slave-based Garamantian kingdom covered 70,000 square miles in present-day southern Libya. It was the first time in history that a nonriverine area of the Sahara (or indeed any other major desert) had produced an urban society. The largest town, Garama (in what is now called the Jarma Oasis), had a population of some four thousand. A further six thousand people probably lived in suburban satellite villages located within a three-mile radius of the urban center.

Thanks to their aggressive mentality and the slaves and water it produced, the Garamantes lived in planned towns and feasted on locally grown grapes, figs, sorghum, pulses, barley, and wheat, as well as on imported luxuries such as wine and olive oil. "The combination of their slave-acquisition activities and their mastery of foggara irrigation technology enabled the Garamantes to enjoy a standard of living far superior to that of any other ancient Saharan society," says archaeologist Andrew Wilson of the University of Oxford, who has been surveying the foggara system. Without slaves, they would not have had a kingdom, let alone even a whiff of the good life. They would have survived--just--in conditions of relative poverty, as most desert dwellers have done before and since.

In the end, depletion of easily mined fossil water sounded the death knell of the Garamantian kingdom. After extracting at least 30 billion gallons of water over some 600 years, the fourth-century A.D. Garamantes discovered that the water was literally running out. To deal with the problem, they would have needed to add more man-made underground tributaries to existing tunnels and dig additional deeper, much longer water-extraction tunnels. For that, they would have needed vastly more slaves than they had. The water difficulties must have led to food shortages, population reductions, and political instability (local defensive structures from this era may be evidence for political fragmentation). Conquering more territories and pulling in more slaves was therefore simply not militarily feasible. The magic equation between population and military and economic power on the one hand and slave-acquisition capability and water extraction on the other no longer balanced.

The desert kingdom declined and fractured into small chiefdoms and was absorbed into the emerging Islamic world. Like its more famous Roman neighbor, the once-great Saharan kingdom became, little by little, simply a thing of myth and memory. Along with the rest of the world, Berbers living in the Fazzan today have all but forgotten their ancestors. The kingdom's legacy has faded so dramatically that local residents believe the vast water-extraction system--the pride of the Garamantes--is the handiwork of Romans.

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DAVID KEYS is the archaeology correspondent for the London newspaper The Independent. More information on the Garamantes can be found in The Archaeology of Fazzan (2003), published by the Society for Libyan Studies, London and the Department of Antiquities, Tripoli. The Fazzan project's website is museums.ncl.ac.uk/garamantes/feztop.htm.

quote from: http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/14781/page/2
"From their data, they judge that the human lineage acquired taeniid tapeworms in sub-Saharan Africa, quite plausibly coinciding with the onset of regular scavenging and hunting in early Homo between 780,000 and 1.71 million years ago. The eggs of the ancestral taeniids passed from true carnivores to their varied prey, and then from those prey as larvae back to carnivores or on to predatory hominids. In time, the larvae of those carnivore-specific tapeworms evolved into human-specific tapeworms. Hoberg and his colleagues believe there were two independent exposures of hominids to the taeniid tapeworms; one lineage led to T. solium, and the other lineage evolved into T. asiatica and T. saginata. T. asiatica and T. saginata may have diverged when some hominids migrated out of Africa into Eurasia. From currently known fossil evidence, this expansion of hominid territory took place about 1.7 million years ago, when Homo ergaster colonized Eurasia. Moving into a new continent meant Homo encountered new prey species and new carnivore competitors. Many millennia after this great migration out of Africa, archaic Homo evolved into modern Homo sapiens, who still later domesticated animals, perhaps in at least two separate episodes. It now seems that conventional wisdom must be turned on its head. Humans did not "catch" tapeworms from their "dirty" domestic animals, but instead infected the domestic animals with their own tapeworms."
endquote

I have been reviewing the idea that Atlanteans ate pulse food (before cereals were perfected). Food scientists have looked for the origin of pulse foods. It turns out that the first (and still the primary) pulse is the "chickpea", which is often called "garbanzo bean" in English.

Chickpea was cultivated originally near the region where it grows naturally (i.e. the upper Euphrates valley, near the border of Turkey and Syria), at roughly 8,000 to 9,000 BC. But today 85% of the world's crop is grown in India.

quote from: http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/cropfactsheets/Chickpea.html#Origin
Origin
van der Maesen (1972) believed that the species originated in the southern Caucasus and northern Persia. However, Ladizinsky, (1975) reported the center of origin to be southeastern Turkey. van der Maesen (1987) recognized the southeastern part of Turkey adjoining Syria as the possible center of origin of chickpea based on the presence of the closely related annual species, C. reticulatum Ladizinsky and C. echinospermum P.H. Davis. Wild C. reticulatum is interfertile with the cultivated pulse and morphologically closely resembles cultivated C. arietinum. It is regarded as the wild progenitor of chickpea (Ladizinsky, 1975). "Botanical and archeological evidence show that chickpeas were first domesticated in the Middle East and were widely cultivated in India, Mediterranean area, the Middle East, and Ethiopia since antiquity. Brought to the New World, it is now important in Mexico, Argentina, Chile, Peru and the U.S. Also important in Australia. Wild species are most abundant in Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, and Central Asia" (Duke, 1981).
...
Ecology
Chickpea is a self-pollinated crop. Cross-pollination is rare; only 0-1 % is reported (Singh, 1987; Smithson et al., 1985). Grown usually as a rainfed cool-weather crop or as a dry climate crop in semi-arid regions. Optimum conditions include 18-26°C day and
1-9°C night temperatures and annual rainfall of 600-1000 mm (Duke, 1981; Muehlbauer et al., 1982; Smithson et al., 1985). The Palouse region of the states Washington and Idaho, appears to be well suited to chickpea and can be characterized as having 18-25°C during the day and 5-10°C during the night and a sufficiently long growing season (Muehlbauer et al., 1982). California is very suited to the chickpea crop and it has thrived in the coastal areas and in the Central Valley. Thrives on a sunny site in a cool, dry climate on well-drained soils and grows on a residual moisture in the post-rainy seasons of sub tropical winter or spring of the northern hemisphere (Smithson et al., 1985). "Generally grown on heavy black or red soils pH 5.5-8.6. Frost, hailstones, and excessive rains damage the crop. Though sensitive to cold, some cultivars can tolerate temperatures as low as -9.5°C in early stages or under snow cover. Daily temperature fluctuations are desired with cold nights with dewfall. Relative humidity of 21-41% is optimum for seed setting."
endquote

You wrote about the Vinca culture. I have read about this culture, which was found in the areas of today Romania and Serbia, that it has developed the first known writing system, still before the early Egyptians 4000 bc :

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinca_alphabet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinca_alphabet#Meaning_of_the_symbols

The script symbols are resembling more the old greek and phoenician letters than the egyptian hieroglyphs. May be that the Phoenicians were not the inventors of the alphabet, but only the distributors like in their other trade.

However, I expect the Vinca (or Old European) script was developed locally for use by Vinca merchants, and then went out of existance when the Vinca culture went into decline around 3500 BC.

That would match the same way Linear B went out of use (after the Mycenaean culture collapsed).

As this article demonstrates (published in 2002), it appears that the populations of Greece and Albania were the first to carry the neolithic into Europe, and Greek DNA is still mostly descended from the neolithic pioneers.
quote from: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/99/17/11008.pdf

Table 1. Estimated Palaeolithic contribution across Europe
Population Mode Median 90% CI* 50% CI*
Greece 0.000 0.289 0.027–0.745 0.139–0.467
Albania 0.000 0.263 0.024–0.750 0.121–0.453
Macedonia 0.000 0.311 0.030–0.838 0.151–0.520
Georgia 0.194 0.360 0.041–0.870 0.183–0.580
Croatia 0.176 0.437 0.052–0.919 0.228–0.677
Calabria 0.373 0.392 0.045–0.808 0.215–0.576
Hungary 0.084 0.398 0.039–0.899 0.194–0.630
Poland 0.335 0.478 0.054–0.936 0.244–0.725
Northern Italy 0.591 0.542 0.074–0.935 0.321–0.741
Ukraine 0.811 0.562 0.068–0.956 0.303–0.783
Catalunia 0.865 0.610 0.086–0.960 0.365–0.811
Netherlands 0.942 0.588 0.086–0.961 0.336–0.804
Germany 0.854 0.601 0.077–0.960 0.351–0.805
France 0.766 0.620 0.105–0.957 0.392–0.804
Czechoslovakia 0.790 0.622 0.123–0.958 0.406–0.809
Andalusia 0.904 0.690 0.185–0.969 0.477–0.849
Sardinia 1.000 0.845 0.425–0.987 0.711–0.931
*These intervals represent the values between the 0.05 and 0.95, and the 0.25
and 0.75 quantiles for p1, respectively.

quote:

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Velde (1977: 5-6, 31-2) observes, the name "Seth" (setesh) includes the letters tesh meaning "frontier" and in the Coffin Texts the god's name is replaced by a sign meaning "to separate."

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The closest link you'll find with Seth would be with the Khufu trismegistus. Where they separatedEgypt from Menes.

There is a simple word in modern Arabic: shath/sheth which means "separated, isolated,irregular". So I find it interesting that 2nd to 4th Dynasty Egyptian hieroglyphics give the name Seth this very same meaning (separated). The implication seems to be that Seth has been a Semtic name since early Dynastic times in Egypt.

The link also says that the name Seth could be used as part of the ancient Egyptian name for Baal (who was clearly a Canaanite/Phoenician deity, and thus Semitic).

This points toward the (isolated, separated)Egyptian colony at Gebal/Byblos as the most reasonable location for Seth around 2700-2500 BC. (The link says that sometimes the name Seth was even written with the determinative for a "city", which increases the probability that Seth originally represented Gebal/Byblos.)

I am also intrigued when the link says that Egypt had a name for "Set copper", which was written using a symbol of a packsaddle, and therefore might mean "imported copper".

At that time Egypt owned a large copper mining and manufacturing complex around Timnah, near the Dead Sea. We know that the road from Timnah mines led directly to Memphis, and that this made copper available for Kufu to use for building his Giza pyramid (which seems to be the point you raised in your last post, Kufu trismegistus).

So perhaps Set's "city" was Egypt's vast copper manufacturing facility near the Dead Sea. (i.e. It may have been the long lost "eastern" arm of the Phoenicians.)

But its also possible that "Set copper" meant a special arsenic-copper which Egypt was willing to purchase from outsiders, via Gebal/Byblos. And if so, then perhaps what ancient Egypt called "Set-copper" was approximately the same as what Plato/Solon called "mountain metal" or orichalc.

Another interesting concept in the link is that Egypt was importing oil (olive oil?) from Libyah, which was the traditional homeland of Neith. Since the olive tree was a sacred symbol of Athena, this may have helped to equate Neith and Athena with each other.

Her work was praised by feminists and colleagues such as mythologist Joseph Campbell.

A native of Vilnius, Lithuania, Gimbutas received a doctorate in archaeology in 1946 from Tubingen University in Germany. She immigrated to the United States in 1949, did research at Harvard University and joined the UCLA faculty in 1963. She retired four years ago. Survivors include three daughters.

quote from: http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/diamond.html
"Perhaps the earliest major developments without PIE names are battle chariots, which became widespread between 2000 and 1500 BC, and iron, whose use became important between 1200 and 1000 BC. The lack of PIE terms for these relatively late inventions does not surprise us, since the distinctness of Hittite had already convinced us that PIE broke up long before 2000 BC. Among earlier developments that do have PIE names, there are words for 'sheep' and 'goat', first domesticated by around 8000 BC; cattle (including separate words for cow, steer, and ox), domesticated by 6400 BC; horses, domesticated by around 4000 BC, and ploughs, invented around the time that horses were domesticated. The latest datable invention with a PIE name is the wheel, invented around 3300 BC.

Please refrain from obtusive language. There are no Anti-Greeks here, just professional research analysts. There seems to be however Pro-Greeks in this forum,which is why they made the parthenon.

So please Perseus, take it to the parthenon.

We study all cultures without egotism or racism in my class.