Three (water-bearing) river/lakes wind around it without touching each other (Styx, Acheron, and Cocytus). In the center there is Geb's lake of magma, although the Greeks call it the Pyriphlegethon river/lake.

The entrance to Tartarus (the extremely deep place) lies near the magma lake. Its entrance is a portal which was excavated in ancient times by digging into a massive deposit of obsidian (=adamant).

Zeus stuffed the Titans down into the volcanic Tartarus. (Meanwhile Triton was spooking the Titans by blowing noises on his conch shell.)

And then Poseidon shut the obsidian portal by constructing a tin-bronze gate across it. Some people also say Poseidon constructed 3 metal (brazen?) fences around Tartarus.

Dropides and Critias (who heard the story from Solon, and relayed it to Plato) probably had one-too-many cups of wine one day, and proposed jingoisticly that a superpower could use trireme boats to get minerals out of Geb's molten-gold ("At Nub") stronghold, even if it was in Tartarus.

So I suspect Dropides and Critias embellished the story (via anachronistic triremes!!) with a way to exploit Geb's minerals-- by introjecting bridges and tunnels across the 3 rivers of the Greek underworld.

I give Plato credit for his attempts to make the story more "historical": by blanking out all references to iron materials in Poseidon's bronze age Tartarus.

Presto Chango!! Instant Atlantis.

quote:
"The river Acheron, which flows through various desert places, is said to come to the Acherusian Lake, where the souls of most of the dead remain, some for a longer time, some for a shorter, until they are reborn. The river Pyriphlegethon, which is a stream of lava rolling in its torrent clashing rocks, also builds a large lake boiling with water and mud. Pyriphlegethon comes to the edge of the Acherusian lake, but does not mingle with its water and neither does the Styx, which coming close to the Acherusian Lake, passes round in a circle and falls back into Tartarus under the name of Cocytus.
...
Tartarus, Place of Punishment:
Tartarus is also a place of punishment. Round it runs a fence of bronze, and night spreads in triple line all about it. Some say that the gates are of iron and the threshold of bronze, and others that there is a threefold wall around it. Around this triple wall flows Pyriphlegethon with its flames and its clashing rocks. The entrance, in which there is an enormous portal has pillars of solid adamant that not even the gods could break." http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Underworld.html

Merry Early Christmas Everyone!

However, I want to point out that the name Leucippe, for the first lady of Atlantis, was translated correctly by Beauman a week or two ago. I hope the link below will clarify that her name means "white horse, or white mare". (You have to scroll down to find the entry for Leucippe/leukippe.) http://www.theoi.com/Okeanos/Melia.htm

Here is a discussion, and some pictures, of the wild "near-white (dun-colored) horses" of Spain and Portugal. http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/spanishhorses/archives/sorraia2.shtml

Leucippe contributes an important basis for the chariots of Atlanteans. She also matches the women-charioteers that Herodotus lists in Northwest Africa. And she matches the wild Sorraia mares of Portugal, which may have lived along the Atlantic coast since the last ice age.

Plato was telling us that Poseidon the horse-man married a daughter (Cleito) of the Horse-woman (Leucippe). So its not surprising that their descendents were charioteers.

It's just a simple site for now,more for viewing pleasure rather than technical.I made it using front page and the free 15 mb webspace from my ISP. I had to learn as you go from mistakes. It was really frustrating!

I checked the Leukippe link you provided which states that she was changed into a "White Poplar",which we know is a tree.

Most of the translations I did were from perseus tufts,relating to either Greek or Latin.

That etymology with the letter A can be a little misleading. It's either against or for in meaning.

For, meaning "into" or "onto",against as you've said meaning "without".

Atlas could mean in or on the mountain or whatever las would mean.

Like our words accept,adhere,acclaim,accredit,akin,etc...

Like Atlantis could also mean A land IN or ON the Ocean,or in the without sense,A island "off" the land.

The word ATOLL etymologically is linked to the Malayalum word ATOLU ,according to Webster.

But here is how archaeology would explain the Oera Linda theme of leaving a beautiful place around 2194 BC, and buying property a hundred years later to start the Minoan phase of civilazation on Crete.

We have discussed Maritime Troy before, here in the Tribes thread. At Troy, the new excavator calls Troy I, II, and III the "maritime Troy" phase, with II being the most prosperous, and III displaying a decline. After III, Troy lost its windows-on-the-world, and became a landbased culture.

Troy I and II traded a lot with the Cyclades. Troy I was already importing obsidian from Melos. For Troy II (2600-2250 BC), its craftsmen were suddenly manufacturing a high percentage of tin-bronze items (due to receiving tin from the Kestrel mine at Tarsus, Turkey). It seems that Troy II was exporting tin-bronze items, and in exchange, Troy II was receiving pottery and obsidian (etc.) from the Keros-Syros culture of the Cyclades.

When Troy II was burned and destroyed (2250 BC), its tin-craftsmen are believed to have migrated to the island of Syros in the Cyclades. Syros was no farther from the Kestrel tin mine than Troy had been.

quote:
"After 2250 BC the highest concentration of true tin-bronze items in the Aegean sea is found on the island of Syros. At least one half of the copper-based artifacts from Troy II are already high-tin bronzes. The only other site in the Aegean area to have produced so much tin-bronze at this early date is Kastri on Syros which in both its metalwork and its pottery reveals clear Trojan influence and may in fact have been settled by refugees from the final disaster which destroyed Troy II." http://devlab.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/7.html

As we discussed a few weeks or months ago, the Cyclades culture colonized, and radically diversified, a previously-stagnant neolithic phase on Crete, somewhat before the classic (ca 1900 BC) Minoan phase began on Crete.

So the Oera Linda book is basically talking about Cyclades mariners while they were actively colonizing Crete, and simultaneously saying that those mariners moved on, sailing way up north to Frisia.

The catastrophe mentioned in the Oera Linda book might be a 19th century BC earthqake which destroyed Crete, and ushered in the totally new Minoan phase of Crete.

The Egyptians considered Sicily as the home of the Shekelesh. Egypt knew that the Skekelesh were involved in a conspiracy against the western delta of Egypt in the time of Mernepthah.

But Greek myths tell us more about that situation. A Sicilian city-state (with a king named Eryx, and with a temple to Aphrodite) appears at least twice in Greek myths which are dealing with the era of Egyptian pharoah Merneptah and his father Ramses II.

The first Greek myth about Eryx Sicily is the Myth of Hercules's 10th Labor, to obtain the Andalusian cattle. In that myth Hercules, trying to return home, encountered bullies and Sea Pirate People at Eryx. That caused Hercules to make a huge detour northward and return home to Greeece via Turkey.

But the second myth about Eryx tells quite a bit more about the politics of that Sea People Era.

This is the myth about Daedalus, the super-skillful craftsman from Athens (but working in Crete) who married an Egyptian slavewoman (Naucrate) and then fled (or flew!) mysteriously to Eryx Sicily. Naucrate personifies the western delta region of the Nile. In fact, when the Greeks established their first colony in Egypt (about 50 years before Solon went to Egypt), they named their first colony Naucratis.

King Minos of Crete, who had previously enslaved both Daedalus and Naucrate was enraged to learn that his former mastercraftsman (Daedalus) had gone to work for a competitor. So Minos sent an expedition to Sicily, intent on bringing the bronze-craftsman back to Crete. Minos was unsuccessful, and some versions of the myth say that Daedalus spent the rest of his years on Sicily. (Another version of the myth suggests that Daedalus accompanied the sons of Hercules when they went from Boeotia to settle on Sardinia, a.k.a. the sea people called Shardana).

Herodotus wrapped up the story by reporting that King Minos suffered a violent death in Sicily (3 generations before the Trojan war), after learning that he had permanently lost his bronze-mastercraftsman. This was approximately 1240 BC, and potentially about the time when Ramses II placed his son Merneptah in charge of all the armies of Egypt.

quote:
"Minos, according to tradition, went to Sicania, or Sicily, as it is now called, in search of Daidolos, and there perished by a violent death....Men of various nations now flocked to Crete, which was stripped of its inhabitants; but none came in such numbers as the Hellenes. Three generations after the death of Minos the Trojan war took place;" http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/minos1.html

The moral of the story is that the tin trade (coming in from England) was being interrupted by the Sea Peoples. There was an embargo against Crete and Egypt (or as Plato/Solon said, against the whole eastern Mediterranean region). Presumably, tin-bronze implements were being allocated to the coalition of Libyan invaders.

Perhaps several eastern nations were required to send mercenary forces in support of the Libyans, as a way to pay for various shipments of tin and bronze. (That would explain why so many nations became entangled in the war of the Sea Peoples.)

Here is a link which explains the myth of Daedalus. http://www.tkline.freeserve.co.uk/Webworks/Website/AHoneycombForAphrodite.htm

Between those two mountain ranges lies a large "upland" or high plateau, which collects runoff water from the two mountain ranges.

quote:
"The second geographical region is known as the High Plateau, a tableland interspersed with large shallow basins which collect water during the rainy season, becoming dry lake beds or salt flats called chotts, or shotts, in the hot season. This region extends on a southwest to northeast axis from east of shott ash-Shargui to shott al-Hodna, terminating east of Batna. The High Plateau is mostly a barren, arid wasteland, although its western area is known for its abundance of esparto grass, a needlegrass which grows in the deserts of North Africa and which is an age-old material used for making ropes, sandals, baskets and other traditional items." http://algeria.8m.com/topography.html

This esparto grass is like the papyrus of Egypt, and can be used to make paper.

The climate was much wetter during 7000-5000 BC, when the Sahara supported lush vegetation. In that era, Lake Tritonis might have been filled with water all year round.

As we see the parallels with Naucrate and Naucratis in Egypt which was a highly distinguished harbour where all goods had to be brought, and the parallel of the Lake Tritonis Plateau Mountains with twin Merus or Manu and Bakhu as well as the plain collecting water like with Atlantis.

The prized esparto grass would have made this a focal center for meeting and activity.

This Atlantean story has a resemblance to the Set-invasion of the Hyksos. (Hyksos claimed they represented the God Set and therefore they had a supreme claim to the Nile region.) However, the Atlantean themes revolve around Thoth and his ancestral lands.

An important piece of this puzzle is that Berber scholars have recently published some books claiming that Egyptian Heiroglyphics were based on a 4000 BC. Berber language substrate (called Tifinagh or Tifinar). http://amazighworld.net/tamazgha/culture/language/index.php

This (Tifinagh or Tifinar) language is what Geb used in his empire, and also what he sent Thoth to administer in Egypt.

Ancient Egypt called Thoth the man of Tehuti/(Djehuti). And he came from a "lakeland" which was Geb's home region. The lakes of that lakeland have a connection to Lake Tritonis. So much so, in fact that they can still be identified paleo-geographicly.

The lakeland of Thoth is currently called Touat Oasis Group in southern Algeria, near the border of Morocco. Here is a websearch to help identify the Touat Oasis Group. http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?invocationType=topsearchbox.%2Faol%2Findex.jsp&query=Touat+Oasis+Group&x=27&y=10
In some cases the ancient Egyptians referred to this as the Amduat, the land of Duat/Tuat.

But before I review the more ancient details of the (two? or three?) Atlantean invasions, let's consult Herodotus, for a more recent time period (525 BC).

I presume that this region is also is the basis for a scenario in Herodotus which is called the Table of the Sun. When the invading king of Persia (ca 525 BC) heard about the Table of the Sun, the Persian king decided he wanted to make friends with (i.e. to conquor?) that region. The story was that a king far to the west of Egypt set out an unlimited banquet EVERY DAY, and everyone could take all the food they wanted. This kingdom also had a lot of gold, perhaps resembling Geb's "Lake of Gold".

According to Herodotus, the Egyptians explained a travel-route to the Persians which followed a string of oases west through the Sahara Desert, ending with the oasis of the Atalantes peoples.

We know that the Berber word "Adrar" meaning High Plateau, was the substrate word which Greeks converted into the name of Atlas Mountains. http://30.1911encyclopedia.org/A/AD/ADRAR.htm
For Berber civilization, it was the "foothill valleys" (not than the mountain peaks) which contained enough water to be inhabited. The Egyptian symbol for this is the Djew, which is often misunderstood, but clearly depicts a "saddle lowland" surrounded by higher lands on both sides: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/offices/comm/vista/9606/4.htmlhttp://members.aol.com/egyptart/symlst.html#hr

The various Adrar places in west Africa are not peaks, but are tablelands near some mountain run-off water.

The most important Adrar location is an oasis in the Touat Oasis Group, which is considered a "wetland of international significance". http://www.wetlands.org/RDB/Ramsar_Dir/Algeria/DZ013D02.htm

This Touat Oasis Group is located in a "Touat depression"; and the link above suggests that the depression covers 97,500 hectares, or roughly 380 square miles.

Ancient natives built an enormous canal system here, cutting megalithic underground galleries into sandstone for a total length of 800 miles, and distributing spring water to feed the wild animals of the region. Obviously caravans could obtain any amount of water which was needed as they passed through. But perhaps the most interesting issue in the above Adrar link is that special blind fish have actually "evolved" in the canals; so it is presumed that the canal network might be 10,000 years old. (The caravans passing through Adrar went from Egypt to the gold producing lands around Senegal and the Gold Coast of Africa. But they are no longer active.)

There is an uncany resemblance between the canal system (today) of Adrar and what Herodotus learned about the Table of the Sun.

Turning now to a more ancient era, we can recognize the names of two of the oases around Adrar (Temantit and Timmi) as two of the Berber tribes which invaded Egpypt according to the inscriptions of Mernepthah (ca. 1210 BC): Tenehu and Temehu, who were rivals of each other, and whose armies may have been mutually anihilated (by their Asian/Greek/Meshwesh mercenary cadre) when a 1210 BC invasion of Egypt failed.

Berber names have immortalized some relationships about the Touat Oasis. For example "Touati" means: descending from people of the Touat Oasis Group. And "Touat" is the Berber name for the land of Morocco.
Here is a dictionary which identifies the Berber origin (and meaning) of those names: Touat and Touati. http://www.dafina.net/meaningofthenames.htm[

So to tie all of the above together, it seems that Thoth came to Egypt from the Touat Oasis Group around 4000 BC, bringing with him the basis for heiroglyphics. The Fenoghil community (currently at Temantit oasis, but perphaps previously at the nearby Tassili n'Ajjer pictograph region) may to have originated the Ti-finagh berber/Egyptian written language around 4000 BC. And the blind fish in their 800 miles of underground canals suggest that the Touati/(Djehuti) people have been living there since 10,000 BC. The Temehu and Tenuhu chose to invade Egypt (unsuccessfully) around 1210 BC. But eventually the Touati peoples did in fact populate substantial parts of modern Morocco.

This sort of leads to another interesting concept that dwells in my mind. We know that at some time the Sahara was a lush land with water. This water would have been the end result of the great flood for geographically it wouldn't exist there for long. Possibly caused from a meteoric impact.

The end scenario would match Erick and Jonas's conclusion that Atlantis was Morocco or a part of,more in the Atlantes,Tritonis region which we see.

The vision seems to be that Morocco,Algeria and Libya was once a large island which resulted from the flood. Lake Tritonis being the final result of this in the end stages of evaporation. The flooded land would cover the Grand Erg occidental region.
The island would consist of the Atlas mountains from Morocco to Tunis.

This would compare to why Atlantis faced Gades,which would then become the interior of Libya or the Gades region as noted in medieval maps and the Gulf of Gades.

This is a very interesting concept in that Atlantis could have been Lake Tritonis which would mean that the Royal City would have been the now extinct island of Phla in the center of Lake Tritonis.

How this fits with the pillars of Hercules is somewhat complex other than the translations in reality speak of them as Steles or Stones rather than pillars.

Could these steles have been situated in a differently positioned Sicily?,or between Crete and Peleponnesia?

This is a very possible theory.

The first two or three dynasties in egypt were satisfied with Manu and Bachau as the supports of the sky. But as soon as king/pharoahs started going to the Sinai for copper (and coincidentally using their copper as tools to build the pyramids) then Egypt changed the sky. That's when Egypt started talking about the 4 pillars of the EASTERN sky, personified as 4 sons of Horus. (Egypt had no interest in what held up the western sky at that time.)

The "eastern wall" of the world was a volcanic ridge which runs from Damascus to (roughly) Mecca. Arabs sometimes call it harrat, meaning the 1000 nile long "mountain chain of lava". http://www.angelfire.com/fl/BriansHouse/mountararat.html

To Old Kingdom Egypt, this had a simple meaning. Ground-water existed west of that wall of lava. (E.g. the Levant coast of the Mediterranean had adequate supplies of ground water.) And there was only desert (no water) on the other side of the Lava Wall of the East.

But peoples outside Egypt wanted to innovate. Thus at least 2 Djudi (Judi) peaks have been celebrated by foreigners. The Koran talks about Mt Judi at the southern end of that wall (near Tayma). And the Christians talk about Mount Judi (where Noah's Ark landed in Urartu) at the NORTH end of that wall of lava.

All such Djudi places along that 1000 mile long wall are derived from the original Egyptian "Djew" (world mountain) concept. The subsequent Egyptian evolution regarding 4 pillars of the EAST, was that the mountain ridge of the east marked the end of fertile earth, and the beginning of desert.

When Thothmes III conquored Armenia he declared that one of the four pillars of the east (4 pillars of the sons of Horus) was located in Armenia (=Mt Judi). http://www.searchgodsword.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T741

I found it interesting that google searches could not turn up any story about the 4 sons of Horus leaving the east, to line up at the 4 cardinal points of the N, E, S, and W sky.

So the ancient Egyptians probably did not place much importance on the western pillar of the sky.

Ancient Egyptians presumed everything out West had turned to desert. (I think Herodotus said the sun sets into a hollow volcano which gets hotter at night after sunset, and boils away all the ground water of the West.)

The ancient Egypt viewpoint certainly casts a strange light on the "flood" interpretation. a) Ground water was presumed to exist everywhere, up to (nearly)the top of the world mountain, or world mountain-ridge. b) But yet this was not a rain-flood, because the Egyptians proposed very little water existed on the other side of Ararat/Judi.

From Tribes 19;

HERACLES
O thou Cenaean rock whereon mine altars rose, what a cruel reward hast thou won me for those fair offerings,- be Zeus my witness! Ah, to what ruin hast thou brought me, to what ruin!

And I will show thee how later oracles tally therewith, confirming the old prophecy. I wrote them down in the grove of the Selli, dwellers on the hills, whose couch is on the ground; they were given by my Father's oak of many tongues;

I don't have much info on the Cenaens yet which seem to relate to a city,giants,a fortress and maybe in the Cyrene area. Not sure at this moment. It seems that this was the main site of Hercules' Stele and Altar from his dying words.

The Selli's however were an ancient group of Greeks. Apparently they relate to the Oracle DODONA.

quote:

---

Dodona was the oldest of the Pagan Greek oracles, located in the mountains of northern Greece, 5 miles SE of the southern most tip of modern Albania and 30 miles inland from the Ionian Sea. There was an Oak grove near a year round stream which dried during the evening and ran during the day. Some claim this was a Beech grove, depending on which of the Tree-month-Gods was being promoted at the time. However, Socrates speaking to Phaedrus (275) says, "There was a tradition in the temple of Dodona that oaks first gave prophetic utterances." Which confirms what Homer says, when he speaks of the, "spelling lofty leaved oak of the God" at Dodona. (Odyssey 14:326-7)

---

This occurred in early Cretan [pre Greek] times, about 500 years before the Trojan War, or about 1750 BCE. The Hyksos and India invaded Egypt around this time also.

The three Priestesses who kept the shrine and interpreted the Oracle of Zeus, were known as Selli, though in later years, both priest and priestess of Zeus at Dodona were called Selli, or Selloi; and the most ancient name for people of the area was also Selloi.

quote:
"DEIANEIRA
O best of friends, tell me first what first I would know,- shall I receive Heracles alive?

LICHAS
I, certainly, left him alive and well,- in vigorous health, unburdened by disease.

DEIANEIRA
Where, tell me- at home, or on foreign soil?

LICHAS
There is a headland of Euboea, where to Cenaean Zeus he consecrates altars, and the tribute of fruitful ground."

The ancient Greeks prided themselves on their sailing skills. But they were blockaged by the forces of nature until 800 BC, and previously could not get beyond the Eastern Mediterranean and Aegean seas.

Both of those natural blockades are discussed in the mythical voyage of the Argonauts. Its a wonderful myth. I think it deserves a subtitle of: "We Greeks would have known these things around 1400 BC, if only we had TRIREMES back then."

I saw a TV documentary about Jason and his trip to Colchis. The TV show pointed out that until the Greeks had 20-oared uniremes (probably around the time of the Trojan war) they did not have enough power to get through the Straits of Bosphorous, and into the Black Sea. Both the wind and the water current opposes traveling eastward there.

But people of the Black Sea (such as Medea in the story of the Argonauts) would have known about the Danube River, and the fact that traders carried merchandise deep into the nortwest corner of Europe by following the Danube River.

Its worth considering that all the Okeanids in Greek myths were FRESH-water deities. So Medea convinces Jason and the Argonauts to take their trireme and row upstrean throughout the Danube portion of the World-encircling River (Ocean). After a little fudging, the Argonauts then get their boat to the "Eridanus" river and sail downstream to roughly Marseille.

Next they do some coast hugging and arrive at Sicily, which is the mythical home of Aelous, god of the 4 winds. Aeolus blows them off-course, and sends the Argonauts a long way inland in Algeria, so they carry their boat back to the Med. (That part of the trip harmonizes with Hercules, who also had to visit the Atarantians in Libya to learn how to sail and navigate around the wind-hazards of Sicily.)

Up to this part of its story, the myth has proposed that a trireme can navigate (by rowing powerfully?) past the wind-hazard of Sicily, but only if the sailors know what they are doing.

Armed with that knowledge the Argonauts proceed to Crete, where they are able to trash the Bronze robot named Talos who has been protecting Crete, possibly since the beginning of the Minoan Bronze Age.

So the moral of the Argonaut story is that Minoan Crete had gotten its tin secetly via the path of the Argonauts (i.e. the tin-route across France/CelticGaul. Then Minoan Crete had used its secret tin-source while manufacturing its bronze items and weapons, such as the bronze robot Talos.

www.grahamhancock.com/forum/VandecruysG1.php?p=3

The Ampere Seamount lies next to the Gettysburg bank. This seamount is closer to the location of the Royal City.

In the Dragon's head lies the Tore Seamount,which is shaped like an Atoll. Supposedly,this is the result of a meteoric impact.
www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/impact2000/pdf/3129.pdf

Carthage published a map on coins which were minted around 350-320 BC. Those coins depict a giant horse (Leucippe??) standing on a small map of her empire, which includes a couple large islands near the Gettysburg Sea mount, and also includes the whole Mediterranean basin. http://www.mtholyoke.edu/offices/comm/vista/9606/4.html

This seems to have been a map of the voyage of Himilco (500 BC) and it caused Eratosthenes to translate the record of Himilco's voyage into Greek around 250 BC.

One of the intriguing issues related to the coin-map is that reality seems to end around Aquitania and the Basque region of France. Persumably Himilco turned back at that point. Commentators disagree about whether England and Ireland are shown on the map.

quote:
"HIMILCO

A Carthaginian explorer, made a voyage round the west coast of Europe and explored as far as Britain and Ireland about 500 BC. An account of his expedition, giving details of the coast and the tribes who dwelt on it, written probably by himself, was known to the ancients but is now lost. Eratosthenes (c.275-195 BC), librarian to Ptolemy III, king of Egypt, translated this account into Greek, but this work too is lost. Rufus Festus Avienus, who was proconsul for Africa AD 366, and an elegant writer of Latin, had a copy of the Greek version of Himilco's work and amused himself by rendering it into Latin verse. Of this Latin translation, written 850 years after the events it narrates, we have a fragment of some 4015 lines. These have been carefully published by Alfred Holder, under the title of RUFL FESTI ARIENI CARMINA. It should be noted that at the time of Himilco's expedition the Celts had not conquered Spain. Polybius and, following him, Strabo blame Eratosthenes for stating that the Celts held all Spain except Cadiz, which belonged to the Carthaginians, and then omitting the Celts from his list of peoples occupying the west coast of Spain. There is, however, no contradiction here. Eratosthenes, writing c.240 BC, correctly states that the Celts held dominion over the greater portion of the Iberian peninsula, but when copying the account of the voyage of Himilco, which relates to 500 BC, he does not find the Celts among the tribes occupying Iberia. We must conclude they had not yet conquered the peninsula. We know, however, from Herodotus that about fifty years after the expedition of Himilco the Celts had conquered the Iberian peninsula. The conquest therefore took place in the fifth century BC. We shall see they were subsequently conquered by the Carthaginians.

# 455 p 121 ff: W. Dinan: Monumenta Historica Celtica" http://celt.net/Celtic/celtopedia/h.html

TOKENS as was mentioned earlier.

Tokens seem to go as far back as agriculture,maybe even farther. Stone age man would probably have made them to symbolize their culture? Here is a sample link of some tokens from the Harappa's.
http://www.harappa.com/indus/38.html

By the way,guess who that funny looking guy and the woman is on my homepage?

Salammbo is the woman and Matho is the guy.
Salammbo is the daughter of Hammilcar from Carthage!

Based on the famous "Heavy Metal" artist, Philippe Druillet!!

BUSH I WARN YOU DONT START THE 3 WORLD
WAR SEEN THE FUTURE IN THE WELL OF TIME
OR I WILL NOT ALOVE IT THAT SOMEBODY WILL
BE HURT HUMANS OR OTHER RACES ALIKE.....

YOUR PLAN TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD IS FAMILAR
TO ME AS A ATLANTIEN TIME TRAVLER,TIPILCY
RAMA EMPIRE PLAN;BUSH THE MIGHY ATLANTIENS
ARE BACK ALL OF THE 10 IN HUMAN FORM LIVE
AND INMORTAL OVER THE HOLY WATER OF ATLANTIS
MANY MORE WILL FOLLOW THANKS THE THE BACKUP PLAN TO MIX HUMAN AND ATLANTIEN GENS TOGHTER
IN THIS TIME WE ALREDY BECOME ONE RACE
EVEN YOUR BEST RAMA EMPIRE GENS WILL HELP
US

FOR AKARIUS MY FAHTER AND AKARINA MY MOTHER
AND MY SON AKARA REST ALL IN PEACE,MY WAY
IS MARKED WITH VENEGENCE

CORECT ITIUS
CORECT BROTHER AKATA
FOR OUR NOBLE PAST

Its the Greek MYTH of Jason and the Argonauts which says that the Argonauts (=Sea Peoples) attacked Crete.

I am not the one who is starting a holy war.

If you check my posts here on the Tribes of Atlantis thread in recent days, what I wrote is that Neith and Thoth are described in ancient Egypt as if they negotiated a PEACE treaty (resembling the Egyptian Heliopolis religion) between the squabbling factions of ancient Egypt (Osiris, Set, and Horus etc.). Neith and Thoth got what they wanted, and everybody lived happily ever after. Neith wanted to manufacture linen on the westen side of the Nile Delta. Thoth/Geb wanted to exploit minerals all over Egypt. Osiris wanted to drink barley beer. Set wanted to raise donkeys and goats in the oases of Western Egypt. And Horus wanted to be King of the Nile Valley. Nephthys wanted to divorce Set. And Isis wanted to be Queen (or Queen Mother) of the Nile Valley.

The Hyksos thought that Set wanted Hyksos to manufacture linen on the EAST side of the Nile delta. But that made Neith mad, because she wanted to be queen of linen, bows, and arrows. (Hmmmm. That resembles George Bush who wants to be King of guns and butter.)

After Neith got rid of the Hyksos, she wanted to repopulate her Western side of the Nile Delta.

That's when the Argonauts went to vist Thoth's homeland in southern Algeria, and to sail their trireme around in Thoth's 800 miles of underground canals.

Obviously, that's when Pharoah Merneptah decided that everyone should live happily ever after.

quote:

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Peribsen (Sekhemib) made sweeping political changes. The serekhs bearing the royal names are not surmounted by Horus anymore but by his religious rival, Set, who became the primary royal patron deity. A stela bearing Peribsen's name found at Abydos illustrates this change in loyalties. He may have been a usurper or a member of a collateral branch of the ruling family. Peribsen was buried at Abydos.

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Sekhemib seems to have been in power around 2769 bC. This seems to compare to when the armies of Set came into power.

Prior to him;

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Nynetjer ruled according to some accounts for 47 years. The Palermo Stone records a number of events that occurred between the 6th and 26th year of his reign. He had many festivals dedicated to various deities of Egypt. among them the Running of the Apis Bull. The wrecking of the city of Shem-Re is connected with his name [1].

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This would have been around 2816,and from what we see a connection of sorts to Atlantean kings and their Bull rituals.

Could these 2 kings symbolize that Set may be a Northern deity equated with Sumeria and Babylon?(later Hyksos as Atalante mentioned) And that the kings prior to Sekhemib, and up to Menes were more closely related to Atlantis ????

This is helpful in sorting out proto-history. We have already encountered the "tlasena" serveral times here in the Tribes thread. They were the thalassa/telchines.

Consequently Greek myth says that they sailed away from Rhodes when Aphrodite wanted to flood that island.

Then we encounter them again at Eryx/(Elyx?) Sicily, in the Greek Daedalus myth, with a famous temple to Aphrodite.

And this leads to perhaps their most beguiling epiphany, as Aeolus (god of the 4 winds), who appears out of thin air at Lipari and Sicily. After Aeolus gave the locals (i.e. the obsidian-producing cultures around Sicily and its satelite islands) a set of rules to live by, Greek myth says that he generously offered to be their king.

Do I need to explain that Aeolus is a metamorph of Elyx/Eryx Sicily?

And as a God of the air/(winds), he had the right attributes to be also the (non-transliterated) Egyptian god Shu.

After Shu became sick, he abdicated from Egyptian activities, but that gave him enough spare time to evolve into the Rasena, or Etruscans.

The answer is yes. And amazingly, I have located a few beautiful pictures of them.

The Phoenicians always wanted to colonize tiny islands near a shore. Consider Tyre, for example. So the pillars of Melcart, even if they barely reach above sea level, were actually tall pillars rising up from the bottom of the sea.

There is an archipelago of reef islands in the Sicily channel. Some of them were ancient ports for the Phoenicians (i.e. pillars of Melcart).

note: Pantelleria (ca. 6000 BC) was originally exploited at sea level, from an obsidian deposit in a cove. But Pantelleria does not have any sandy beaches.

quote:
"Pantelleria coastline is pure lava hardly smoothed by the sea motion which instead breaks the rocks creating coves and gorges."

Eventually the Phoenicians created a fine harbor on Pantelleria.

But the Phoenicians also created alternate resting ports, in case of adverse weather, etc. That is one of the strategies they used to cope with the heavy winds around Sicily.

Here is a description of one of the Phoenician reef islands in the Sicily channel.

quote:
"The Pelagic archipelago made of the Lampedusa, Linosa and Lampione reefs is Italy's southernmost boundary. Diverse as to their geological appearance with white calcareous Lampedusa and black volcanic Linosa, they share a pleasantly dry climate yelding an uninterrupted summer: winter is indeed the best season, when cultures and vegetation take a bright green shades.
...
Lampedusa has instead a richer past as well evidenced by the recent prehistoric findings. Both Phoenicians and Romans landed here although the best preserved vestiges belong to the fortifications erected against the Barbaresque pirates.
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Rocky and steep to the north and low and sandy to the south, the island offers one port landing only to the south of the town.

Lampedusa port is made by a wide inlet divided in three coves: Cala Guitgia, Cala Salina and Cala Palma."

Did Plato make a mistake? Did the port of Atlantis have 3 intersecting coves, rather then three concentric rings of water?

Here is the reference. I hope you like the pretty pictures. http://www.nautica.it/charter/pelagiee.htm

The following link seems highly relevant: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/5709/tyre.html

The above link says the Phoenicians traced their origin to that same era (2750 BC).

And this correlates to the Neith texts from ancient Egypt. In a previous post, I mentioned that Neith seems to have called a meeting of the Heliopolitan gods and declared that bad things were currently happening in Egypt. Neith proposed that the proper solution was to have 2 Phoenician goddesses set up trading colonies on the western side of the Nile delta.

Presumably Neith complained about bad things connected to the Set revolt of Sekhemib (2769 BC?). And Neith was calling in the Phoenicians (proto-Greeks?) to restore order in Egypt.

That's basicly the same story which Solon heard in Egypt about a goddess related to Neith, but 1000 years older.

The final King of Sekhemib's dynasty once again united Northern and Southern Egypt. This was Khasekhemwy, who used both Set and Horus in his cartouche. One of his names means "two ladies are united within him", and another means "two powerful Ones appear".

quote:
"Khasekhemwy was the last king of the 2nd Dynasty. He may have been born with the name Khasekhem, but after putting down the various rebellions and once more uniting Egypt, he changed his name to Khasekhemwy, meaning "The Two Powerful Ones Appear." He also included both the Horus falcon and the Set animal on his serekh and added the epithet nbwy -htp im=f, meaning "the two ladies are at peace in him," perhaps referring to the tutelary goddesses of Upper and Lower Egypt, once again united under his sole rule.

A study of Nile levels recorded on the Palermo Stone indicate that the annual inundation had significantly dropped after the end of the 1st Dynasty. Perhaps ecological as well as political factors influenced the repeated upsurge in conflict between Upper and Lower Egypt.

An inscription on a stone vase reads, "The year of fighting the northern enemy within the city of Nekheb." The vulture goddess Nekhbet was the royal tutelary deity of this city, now known as el-Kab, which lay on the eastern bank of the Nile opposite the city of Nekhen or Hierakonpolis.
...
Khasekhemwy married a northern princess named Nimaathap, who was called "king-bearing Mother" on a jar-sealing, and later on she was seen as the ancestress of the 3rd Dynasty." http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/earlydyn1.htm

The goddess (or goddesses) must have been powerful at that time. By the way, some scholars believe Khasekhemy reformed the 365-day calender, to put the seasons back in their proper places.

The Nile was low on water, and simultaneously the 365.0-day planting calendar was drifting progressively out of sync with the sun during the 2nd Dynasty. So obviously the farming "followers of Horus" had been suffering in that era.

Interesting concept on Pantelleria and the 3 coves.

What seems odd is that the Greek Mythologies relate Heracles to 1200 bC or around the Trojan War. (almost sounds like Hector)

Yet,as per your link of Tyre,he goes back to 2750 bC ! I understand that later the Greeks attributed Hercules to Melkart who was a Baal God. Seems strange why? Maybe because of the Eulisian Mysteries and their beliefs?

Herodotus of Halicarnassus,"Father of History" visited Tyre during the fifth century B.C.

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Temple of Melkart (Heracles). The priests of the city-told him that the temple was built 2300 years previously when Tyre was founded, that is 2750 B.C. Originally Tyre consisted of a mainland settlement and an island city at a slight distance from the shore. Hiram, king of Tyre, joined two isles to enlarge the city and further extended Tyre by reclaiming a considerable area from the sea.

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That last part about Hiram even compares to a sort of Atlantis construction.

[This message has been edited by Riven (edited 12-17-2003).]

In the bottom right picture it shows Kithira from a distance which would make a good pillar of Hercules between Crete or it's sister island Andikithira.
www.ramuniversal.com/xplorer/kithira/kithira_en_gallery.asphttp

Malta and Crete is also another good site.

Bear in mind people that this study of Hercules' pillars relates to Atlantis in Lake Tritonis theory.

Look at this Sceptre held by the Carthagenians!

So I searched for porphyry -- and out popped an interesting detail. Egypt was the only place in the ancient world which quarried the red/purple rock named porphyry. And porphyry was reserved exclusively for the Pharoah's use. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyry

Red or Purple rock.

Its a nifty coincidence. Purple rock - the symbol of Egypt's Pharoah. And the Phoenicians created a "royal" cloth, which Neith wanted to import into Egypt.

Anubis was being phased out as a cloth vendor, at the time when Phoenicia was being phased in. (Anubis has supplied the bandages to Isis for putting the dismembered Osiris back together.)

Beauman recently commented that Anubis resembles an ancient mesopotamian deity named Bau.

Also curious: the red(purple) mineral porphyry was rare, so its a candidate for red mineral orichalc.

quote:
"According to the idealised scheme, the world, specifically the regions outside Fatimid dominions, was divided into 12 jaziras or “islands” for da‘wa purposes; each jazira representing a separate da‘wa region. Delineated on the basis of a combination of geographic and ethnographic considerations, the “islands”, collectively designated as the “islands of the earth” (jaza‘ir al-ard), included Rum (Byzantine), daylam, standing for Persia, Sind, Hind (India), Sin (China), and the regions inhabited by Arabs, Nubians, Khazars, Slavs (Saqaliba), Berbers, Africans (Zanj), and Abyssinians (Habash).20" http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_papers/Ismaili_dawa1/ismaili_dawa1.htm#anchor20

So perhaps Spain and Morocco are part of the same island/jazira.

You DON'T have to install Japanese language!
http://www2u.biglobe.ne.jp/~BLUEMAGI/OmpalambyPeterMetcalph.htm

By a concidence, bible scholars are coming to a consensus that Set was identical to the patron deity of the Phoenician city Ugarit. That deity was named Baal Zephon/Tsapon. And his sacred mountain (Zephon) was frequently called "holy" Kadesh. After the Hyksos were driven out of Egypt, Thothmes III and Ramses II decided to conquor Kadesh, and extract tribute from it.

(That sinking, at what later became the center for Poseidon worship, took place at roughly the same time when "maritime Troy II" was being destroyed-- i.e. the time when tin-bronze manufacturing transferred to Syros island in the Cyclades.)

Here is what your article states:
"EARLY BRONZE AGE. A most significant and unexpected discovery was that of an extensive and remarkably well-preserved Early Helladic coastal settlement (EHII-IIIA, ca. 2600-2300 BC), the first ever found in Achaea. The site is in the Rizomylos area (HH21-22 in Fig. 3), about 1 kilometer from the present shore, at a depth of 3 to 5 meters below the surface.......
The presence of luxury items, including small gold and silver ornaments, attests to the wealth of prehistoric Helike.
The sediments covering the Early Bronze Age horizon contain marine and lagoonal microfauna, showing that the ruins were submerged in seawater for some time. A long wall of one building is abruptly offset by what appears to be a seismic discontinuity (Fig. 5). This suggests that the EHII-IIIA settlement may have been destroyed and submerged by an earthquake, as happened to its Classical successor some two thousand years later."

This sinking of a wealthy city probably paved the way for Indo-European speaking peoples to enter Greece around 2000 BC. So it can be one of the archtypes for Atlantis.

The whole Peloponesian peninsula seems to have been inhabited by an obsidian-based
"Korakou culture" (2650-2200 BC) at the time Helike sank, although an invading "Tiryns culture" was starting to arrive from the north around 2200 BC. The Tiryns culture conquored and burned all towns of northeast Peloponnesia. http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/classics/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/8.html

There was only a skinny isthmus of Corinth which connected that peninsula to the mainland. This made it easy to keep strangers out, thus allowing a southern Greek culture to fluorish, even while warlike (chalcolithic) peoples roamed the mainland.

According to Greek biographies, the first place to be occupied by true "Greeks" was Sicyon, which is mapped inside a red circle by Carlos Parada's mythology website:
http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Sicyon.html

As you can see from the map, the Greeks were very fortunate that nature had made this semi-continent (Peloponesia) easy to defend after Aegialius first took up residence at Corinth (ca 1900 BC).

Aegialius was sometimes called the brother of Phoroneus, whom the myths claim was the first "true" Greek. Moreover, the name Aegialia (i.e. the region settled by Aegialius) seems to echo a corresponding region called Ahhiyawa by the Hittite Annals.

Today the Mycenaeans as we know are accusing the Greeks of claiming their heritage for themselves. The Sicyon cultures appear older with their leaders,
Aegialeus2,Europs1,Telchis(probably where Telchines came from)and Apis2.

Through the line of Phoroneus we have Heracles and Leucippus5 and Zeuxippe3. We also have the Running of the Apis Bull in
Egypt by Nynetjer around 2816 bC. This belief probably came from Apis 1.

The Great war was probably fought in
Peleponnesia(Apia),as this was somewhat of a neutral zone and defensive point for Athens.

If these Apis Bulls relate to Apis
1 around 2816 bC,this should push back the Sicyon cultures by a thousand years! Apis 2 seems to be around the same time as
Phoroneus,1750 bC. However he should be more around 2750 bC.

It seems more than coincidence towards the Argos and Mycenae that they were more an archetype of Atlantis along with the
Sicyons. This probably occured because of the Atlantean migration north of Tyrrhenia. Leaving the Greeks to be more of
descendents from the Cycladeans.

Leucippe 1> wife of Thestius
Leucippe 2> wife of King Laomedon of Troy
Leucippe 3> priestess of Apollo
Leucippe 4> Minyad,daughter of Minyas(Minos?)
Leucippe 5> Mother, by Ilus 2, of King Laomedon 1 of Troy
Leucippe 6> Atlantis

More than likely to pinpoint this war,I would say Eleusis near Corinth is a good candidate.

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During the reign of Erechtheus in Athens, war broke out against the Eleusinians, who were assisted by Eumolpus 1.

Eumolpus 1 attacked Athens because, as he put it, that land belonged to his father Poseidon.

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Though a far shot in the dark, Eleusis almost compares to Atlantis (Aslansis,Alansis,Elansis,Eleusis?)

Could this be part of the mystery behind the Elysian Fields?