Based upon the original roots, the words can have dynamic variations depending upon the differences of time, place, peoples and their cultures. If some roots are very popular and if their importance gets lost due to distant migrations and hence losing of the fundamental references, even then the same or similar word can be retained albeit with some parallel meanings.

So “thalatta/thalassa” can have some Atalante roots, and that can be checked better with reference to the origins and corroboration of the interconnecting dynamic facts.

1. The story begins on the Cyclades island of Naxos, which is famed especially because it contained an ancient mine on Cape Emori, for the mineral emery. Emery is used for polishing stone sculptures. http://www.farnhamgeosoc.org.uk/archive/cyclades/cyclades.htm

Amphitrite was born and raised on the island of Naxos (Cyclades). She sailed to Libya, where she stayed for a brief time, under the protection of Atlas (i.e. probably the eastern Atlas mountains near Lake Tritonis). Poseidon decided he wanted to marry Amphitrite. A dolphin returned Amphitrite to Naxos, where she married Poseidon.

Poseidon and Amphitrite had three children: Triton, Rhode, Benthesicyme. Triton colonized Libya and became a Libyan God at the Tritonis lake and river. Rhode colonized Rhodes, and married Apollo at a later date. Benthesicyme colonized Ethiopia.

2. This story must refer to a very ancient time, because Triton is said to have helped Zeus in the War of the Giants. (Triton made terrible noises to scare the Giants.)

Triton was a fish-man, and he shared some of the powers of his father Poseidon. For example, Triton drove (or sailed) across the water in a chariot pulled by crayfish. (I suspect this means his boat had bonelike spars in its sails.)

3. The myth about Rhode/Triton/Amphitrite helps to identify the fish-men who were called Telchines. Poseidon's daughter Rhode is said on some occasions to be the daughter of a Telchine (islander), but on other ocasions is said to be the daughter of Amphritrite from the Cyclades island of Naxos.

The implication seems to be that Amphitrite was a Telchine. And if so, then all the Greek mythical themes about Lake Tritonis may also be derivatives of the Telchines.

4. Triton's success against the Giants seems to be be a parallel to the Egyptian (Sais) myth that Neith/Greeks won a great victory over the invading Atlanteans.

Likewize, Amphitrite's hasty retreat to the Cyclades may be an indication that the Atlantean invasion took place at that time. A Greek myth about the Giant Typhon explains that all the gods were terrified by the noises, e.g. volcanic eruptions, which Giants make, so all the gods FLED TO EGYPT, except Zeus and Triton. ("TYPHOEUS was a monstrous fire-breathing Giant who assaulted the fortress of heaven. All the gods fled to Egypt in terror, except Zeus who was defeated by the giant and stripped of his sinews. Zeus was restored; and the giant, weakened by a trick of the Fates, was conquered and buried beneath the island of Sicily by Zeus.")

Egyptian (Heliopolitan) myths relate a story similar to the Greek battle against Typhon. Geb, (the Egyptian god of mining, earthquakes, volcanos, and foods) lived west of Egypt at Lake At Nub (cf. Lake Tritonis?). One day Geb uncaged a serpent and its hissing (noisy?) breath killed all of Geb's companions. Geb was severely injured, but eventually recovered. Then Geb sent his minister Thoth to the Nile valley with several tasks for reviving the Nile Valley: to carry out a calendar reform adding 5 days to the year; to introduce the worship of 5 new Heliopolitan gods to Egypt (Osiris, Isis, Set, Nephthys,Horus)--one new god for each of the 5 new days; to survey all the land; and to send heiroglyphic reports back to Geb about the status of his empire in Egypt. http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/geb.html

5. Any conflict involving mineral deities like Greek Telchines and the Egyptian Geb could have been a conflict about access to minerals. Volcanic regions such as the environs of Sicily are rich in minerals. Obsidian, in particular, had been discovered on islands around Sicily (e.g. Pantelleria and Lipari, etc.) at approximately 6000 BC -- which is a reasonable date for the Greek warlike-competition against the Giants of that region. Recently, it has become possible to trace ancient obsidian artifacts back to their source. It is now known that for the South side of Sicily, Pantellerian obsidian was distributed to North Africa via Cape Bon Tunisia, and then generally diffused westward. The island of Malta also received obsidian from Pantelleria. http://luna.cas.usf.edu/~rtykot/PR33%20-%20MRS%202002.pdf

So competition for, and failure to obtain, this Pantellerian obsidian seems to underly BOTH: a) the Greek myths about Typhon; and b) the Egyptian myths about Geb/Thoth turning toward the Nile Valley. Furthermore, the obsidian of Panelleria is unique enough to have its own name -- Pantellerite. Obviously, this invites comparison to the "mystery mineral" of Atlanteans, which Plato called orichalc/oreichalc. (However, Pantelleria's obsidian is green rather than the reputed red-gold color of legendary orichalc.)

6. This line of reasoning about Triton also helps to explain why a Dorian god (Poteidan = Poseidon) would want to drive his iron-age Indo-European chariot across the impossibly deep waters of the Mediterranean Sea. (Originally, Poteidan drove his horse-chariot across the Don, Danube, Dnieper, etc., rivers of his Dorian homeland.)

Ancient Triton-worship was presumably superceded in Greece by Poseidon-worship, when the iron-age Dorians invaded Greece. So Triton's crayfish chariot could have been the prototype of Poseidon's water-chariot.

The Telchines (in Greek myths) became demonized at roughly the same (iron age) time when Poseidon superceeded Triton as the Greek god of Seas.

quote:

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Is "thalassa" also the underlying concept for the name Atlas (whom Plato lists as the FIRST-born son of Poseidon)?

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Not really sure what your concept is here.

An A in front of Thalass for Athalas?

Thalass or Thalatta means the sea which relates to the entire mediterranean.

Carthage and Thonis comes to mind.

Rhea relates to Phrygia.

The Atalantes tribe? Seadogs?

Corinth?

According to Plato, Atlas inherited the "dry land" port city of Atlantis from his grandmother. In other words, Atlas came on shore ("disembarked") at the land of Atlantis.

2. On the other hand, if we want a hard T to be in the root of Atlas, the explanation is "A +tleo", meaning "not solid", hence "not able to bear" something. The Mythographers were (initially) trying to tell us why mountains exist. Why are there mountains? Because Giants inside the earth are pounding away, under the mountains, trying to escape. Therefore the mountains are like dents in a flat surface of the Earth.

That's why the Atlas mountains are called Atlas. I.e. The land is not flat there because it is "not able to bear" the pounding, denting, orogenic activity, of the Giants whom Zeus imprisoned there.

But occasionally the giants were said to escape. According to the Greek mythographers, that happens when volcanos erupt in that region. For example, Vesuvius in southern Italy, and Etna in Sicily. The really big volcanic eruption in proto-History for that region was Vesuvius (Italy) around 5900 BC.

3. Metals are in between the states of solid and liquid. (i.e. metals are malleable, ductile, and meltable.) The ancient mythographers also knew that metals occur near volcanos. In Italy, Vulcan became known as the god of metal-working. And for Egyptians, Geb's totem animal (the Goose) laid glowing magma eggs, while Gebs laughter personified ("plinian"?) earthquakes.

One of the reasons why Zeus became the Supreme God (at least according to the Greeks) is because he dispatched Hephaestus to baby-set mount Etna, thus keeping it from erupting around 5900 BC.

From this line of reasoning, its understandable why any (syncretic) Greek connection between Atlas and the Egyptian god Shu (holding up the sky) was a late addition to the basic mythical theme of the Atlas mountains.

FOR MY ACIENT ATLANTIEN
PRIDE LONG LIVE ATLANTIS
AND MY NOBLE PAST
LONG LIVE MY SON!!!

By contrast, in the Heliopolitan philosohy, only Atum-Ra and Shu were self-created, but then all the other gods and humans are born sexually.

I noticed this in the following quote:

Neith/Neit/Net/Nit ("I Have Come From Myself", "Self Begotten")
"Neith is one of the most ancient goddesses. She is the mother goddess and goddess of the lower heavens. Neith is the warrior goddess; proctectress of women and marriage; and mistress of handicraft, industry, and wisdom. She invented childbirth and is the patroness of domestic arts, weaving, hunting, weapons, war, and medicine."

QUOTE>> Thalass or Thalatta means the sea which relates to the entire mediterranean. <<UNQUOTE

“Sthal” or “Thal’ means to be the dry land in Sanskrit.

Here “th” is pronounces as in “thorough”. Also here “a” is silent.

Tatenen was the arable land that was reclaimed at Memphis from papyrus swamps through irrigation projects.
He was a very specific piece of land at Memphis, submerged by the annual flood that, after it receded, reappeared.
Tatenen was a personification of Egypt and an aspect of Geb, the earth god.

Regardless, as a creator god (Ptah Tatenen) he held the title, "father of the gods" and was thus both the source and ruler of all gods. Ptah as Tatenen is the one who begat the gods and from whom all things proceeded. Thus, we find in the "Hymn to Ptah":

"Hail to thee, thou who art great and old, Ta-tenen, father of the gods, the great god from the first primordial time who fashioned mankind and made the gods, who began evolution in primordial times, first one after whom everything that appeared developed, he who made the sky as something that his heart has created, who raised it by the fact that Shu supported it, who founded the earth through that which he himself had made, who surrounded it with Nun [and] the sea, who made the nether world [and] gratified the dead, who causes Re to travel [thither] in order to resuscitate them as lord of eternity (nhh) and lord of boundlessness (td), lord of life, he who lets the throat breathe and gives air to every nose, who with his food keeps all Mankind alive, to whom lifetime, [to be more precise] limitation of time and evolution are subordinate, through whose utterance one lives, he who creates the offerings for all the gods in his guise the great Nun (Nile, in this case), lord of eternity, to whom boundlessness is subordinate, breath of life for everyone who conducts the king to his great seat in his name, 'king of the Two Lands'."

Nun and Tatenen, primeval gods of representing the depths of water and earth.

http://touregypt.net/featurestories/tatenen.htm

Nun

It was from Nun that Ra (or Amun, another of the Ogdoad who became prominent Middle Kingdom onward, and joined with the sun god as Amen-Ra) created himself, rising up on the first piece of land - the primeval mound (Benben) out of the lotus blossom, born from the world egg, or as a bnw-bird who then found and landed on the mound. In another story, it was Thoth who awoke from Nun and sang the unnamed four frog gods and snake goddesses who then continued Thoth's song to keep the sun travelling through the sky

One story says that Ra's children, Shu and Tefenet, went to explore the waters of Nun. After some time, Ra believed that they were lost, and sent the his Eye out into the chaos to find them. When his children were returned to him, Ra wept, and his tears were believed to have turned into the first humans. Nun then became the protector of the twin deities, protecting them from the demons in his waters. Later on, it was Nun who suggested that Ra sent out his Eye to destroy the humans who were in contempt of the sun god. Finally, it was on Nun's orders that Nut turned into a solar cow, and carried Ra up into the sky after the sun god had grown old and wearied of life on earth.

The Ogdoad were the original great gods of Iunu (Heliopolis) where they were thought to have helped with creation, then died and retired to the land of the dead where they continued to make the Nile flow and the sun rise every day. Iunu was thought to have been the site of the primeval mound by the priests of the city, and they had a sacred lake known as 'The Sea of Two Knives' and an island known as 'The Isle of Flames'. The lake, attached to a temple, represented Nun's waters, and the island was believed to be the primeval mound itself. Ra was thought to have come into the world out of the giant lotus which grew on the mound:

Out of the lotus, created by the Eight, came forth Ra, who created all things, divine and human.

In Hikuptah (Men-nefer, Memphis), Nun was linked to the creator god, Ptah, and known as Ptah-Nun.

Earlier we talked about the mystical lines which went from Cyprus to Cyrene,to Cape Verde. I mentioned an article relating the sun rising 67 degrees East of North around 6000 bC,which also parallels this line theory and the presumption that man followed the Path of the Sun.

In the Expedition to Punt we have the Chief and his wife, quoted on Hatshepsut's mortuary temple, say:

quote:

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" How have you arrived at this land unknown to the men of Egypt? Have you come down from the roads of the Heavens? Or have you navigated the sea of Ta-nuter? You must have followed the path of the sun. As for the King of Egypt, there is no road which is inaccessible to His Majesty; we live by the breath he grants to us."

---

http://touregypt.net/historicalessays/hatshepsut.htm

The interesting thing is that the Draecana-drago from Cape Verde(West) and the Dragon's blood tree from Socotra Island,Yemen,(East) are somewhat similiar trees represented by the pictures of Punt.

Ta-nuter for Hatshepsut seems to be the same place where her son Thotmes III began his career as Pharoah, namely Taneter (Palestine).

Below is a quote which suggests this. See p.19 of the webpage link: http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/woe/woe03.htm

quote:
"The father of Thothmes III was a great warrior. He conquered the Canaanitish nations of Palestine, took Nineveh from the RUTENNU, the confederate tribes of Syria, laid waste Mesopotamia, and introduced war chariots and horses into the army of Egypt.

Thothmes III, however, was even a greater warrior than his father; and during his long reign Egypt reached the climax of her greatness. His predecessors of the eighteenth dynasty had extended the dominions of Egypt far into Asia and the interior of Africa. He was a king of great capacity and a warrior of considerable courage. The records of his campaigns are for the most part preserved on a sandstone wall surrounding the great temple of Karnak, built by Thothmes III in honor of Amen-Ra. From these hieroglyphic inscriptions it appears that Thothmes' first great campaign was made in the twenty-second year of his reign, when an expedition was made into the land of Taneter, that is, Palestine."

This peace treaty seems to have taken place at Heliopolis. Neith proposed that two Phoenician goddesses Anat(=Nephthys?) and Astarte(=Isis?) should be given to Set as wives to replace his previous wife Nepthys, who had left Set to live with Osiris. Evidently this envisioned setting up colonies west of the delta of Egypt. And as compensation, the Heliopolitans were instructed to acknowledge that Set now ruled twice as much land as before. In other words, Set was being granted more oases on the west side of lower Egypt. But colonies from Phoenicia were being granted the use of ports west of the Nile. Meanwhile, both Set and the Phoenicians were instructed to acknowledge that Horus (and his descendents) held undisputed title to the Nile Valley itself.

quote: http://www.crystalinks.com/neith.html
"Give the office of Osiris to his son Horus! Do not go on committing these great wrongs, which are not in place, or I will get angry and the sky will topple to the ground. But also tell the Lord of All, the Bull who lives in Iunu (On, Heliopolis), to double Set's property. Give him Anat and Astarte, your two daughters, and put Horus in the place of his father."

- Nit Addressing the Gods Myth and Symbol in Ancient Egypt, RT Rundle Clark"

But then a new verion of the Neith-peacemaking myth came into circulation. This time it involved Thoth's contributions to the mythical negotiations.

The myth says that:
Thoth proposed that Anat and Astarte were actually the Egyptian goddesses Nepthys and Isis -- and that it was wrong for Set to imprison them in weaving houses while making the goddesses weave textiles.

Therefore Thoth proposed that Nit should have her own weavers create Set's textiles. Nit agreed to do this, and thus freed Isis and Nephthys to resume their regular tasks as goddesses of Egypt.
reference: http://www.philae.nu/akhet/NitEarly.html

The anti-Hyksos movement may have incubated at Esna (Neith's stronghold in the extreme south of Egypt) until it grew strong enough to "swim with the lates fish" downstream to Sais, which was the classical center for Neith worship.

After the Hyksos were expelled, Pharaohs of the next dynasty started Egypt's New Kingdom, and tended to name themselves after Thoth. For example Thothmes I, II, III, and IV.

Eventually, the commercial center of Egypt moved to Sais, which remained the center of Neith worship in Egypt.

The Trachiniae

By Sophocles

Written 430 B.C.E

Translated by R. C. Jebb
http://classics.mit.edu/Sophocles/trachinae.html

HYLLUS
He is waging or planning a war, they say, upon Euboea, the realm of Eurytus

DEIANEIRA
When Heracles my lord was going from home on his last journey, he left in the house an ancient tablet, inscribed with tokens which he had never brought himself to explain to me before,

MESSENGER
His task, lady, is no easy one; all the Malian folk

(I wonder if this is Malta or Melos?}

LICHAS
There is a headland of Euboea, where to Cenaean Zeus he consecrates altars, and the tribute of fruitful ground

MESSENGER
Heracles overthrew Eurytus and the proud towers of Oechalia; Love, alone of the gods, wrought on him to do those deeds of arms

DEIANEIRA
Nay, I implore thee by Zeus whose lightnings go forth over the high glens of Oeta,

LICHAS
smote through the soul of Heracles; for this girl's sake the desolate Oechalia, her home, was made the prey of his spear

antistrophe

One was a mighty river-god, the dread form of a horned and four-legged bull, Achelous, from Oeniadae: the other came from Thebe, dear to Bacchus, with curved bow, and spears, and brandished club, the son of Zeus: who then met in combat, fain to win a bride: and the Cyprian goddess of nuptial joy was there with them, sole umpire of their strife.

DEIANEIRA
But, as I said, anger ill beseems a woman of understanding. I will tell you, friends, the way by which I hope to find deliverance and relief. I had a gift, given to me long ago by a monster of olden time, aid stored in an urn of bronze; a gift which, while yet a girl, I took up from the shaggy-breasted Nessus,- from his life-blood, as he lay dying; Nessus, who used to carry men in his arms across the deep waters of the Evenus, using no oar to waft them, nor sail of ship.

strophe 1

O ye who dwell by the warm springs between haven and crag, and by Oeta's heights; O dwellers by the land-locked waters of the Malian sea, on the shore sacred to the virgin-goddess of the golden shafts, where the Greeks meet in famous council at the Gates;

HERACLES
O thou Cenaean rock whereon mine altars rose, what a cruel reward hast thou won me for those fair offerings,- be Zeus my witness! Ah, to what ruin hast thou brought me, to what ruin!

And I will show thee how later oracles tally therewith, confirming the old prophecy. I wrote them down in the grove of the Selli, dwellers on the hills, whose couch is on the ground; they were given by my Father's oak of many tongues;

HERACLES
Well, thou knowest the summit of Oeta, sacred to Zeus?

HERACLES
Thither, then, thou must carry me up with thine own hands, aided by what friends thou wilt; thou shalt lop many a branch from the deep-rooted oak, and hew many a ***got also from the sturdy stock of the wild-olive; thou shalt lay my body thereupon, and kindle it with flaming pine-torch.

HERACLES
Knowest thou, then, the girl whose sire was Eurytus?

HYLLUS
It is of Iole that thou speakest, if I mistake not

HERACLES
Even so. This, in brief, is the charge that I give thee, my son. When am dead, if thou wouldest show a pious remembrance of thine oath unto thy father, disobey me not, but take this woman to be thy wife.

ye tamed the dragon that guarded the golden fruit in the utmost places of the earth.

The sad part is that I sensed Heracles intent was to marry Iole to his son,which not even the herald or messengers knew.

His wife said he was devoted.

Yet how envy is so tragic.

Could the River Evenus relate to Evenor?

Notice the Ancient names of O.

This tells us that the Malian sea was in Northeast Greece.

RE: MELOS ISLAND AND MALTA
Its a mystery to me why I haven't found references to them in Greek Mythology.

Re: did I go mad? (as Akata suggested)
I hope not.

Re: page 20 of this topic. How many pages can we have for this topic. When I estimate visually, it looks like 19 is the last page number which can fit on the header.

Re: Sanscrit thala/sthala. Perhaps this is the equivalent of Latin, tellus/tellurem, which passes into English as Tellurian(=pertaining to the earth). Similarly, archaelogists investigate tells to find ancient cities, and they excavate tholos to find ancient graves.

Re: Egyptian "khet" as an alternative to stade. I favor the "khet", due to my background in engineering. Ulf makes a powerful point -- it would be financial suicide (and probably impossible) to dig extremely deep canals. Even today, heavy loads are shipped on WIDE & LONG barges, to avoid the need for deep digging. Triremes are the key issue, in regard to canal depth. Athens had dozens of triremes. So the canals of ATLANTIS would have been no bigger or deeper than the harbor of Athens.

When people search for Atlantis on huge (stade-based, 2000 x 3000) flat plains, it tends to create bad results, for example the high plain in Bolivia, or the 2-mile-underwater plain around Cyprus.

RE: Derivation of the name Atlas/Atlantis. Elemental started a new topic about this and posted what the Bartleby dictionary says about the root "tel-", meaning to bear, to tolerate, to endure. Several derivatives from this root involve money. For example a "toll" is the price of tolerating some action. Atlantis seems to have used a "barter-economy"; so perhaps the prefix "a" in Atlas means roughly "without-money". (Plato said the earth provided most of their needs; and they barter-traded for the rest.)

Re: Socotra. Traditionally it has been controled by Hadhramaut (a region on the Arabian peninusula, whose name means "Garden of the Herbs of Death". I suspect Socotra is named from Arabic: Suk (marketplace) of Hadhrawat (herbs). I agree, its interesting that we find dragon trees on both ends of Africa, Socotra and the Canaries. Some scholars think Socotra traded in ancient times with Madagascar. All things considered, Punt for the ancient Egyptians was probably the island of Socotra.

Avalon, the fabled underworld and Isle of Apples, is described as being west of Brittania. The Greek mythology about the Hesperides also feature apples. The root of this name means 'west', and is the same root as Hibernia, or Ireland. There are also the Hebrides (same root), which are islands off Scotland.

Albion, an ancient name for England, means "The White Island" the same meaning as "Atala" in Sanskrit.

Ladon, the dragon/serpent that guards the Tree of Golden Apples in the Hesperides (interesting Garden of Eden imagery there), is the same as the West Semitic primoridal sea-serpent Lotan, or Leviathan. He was the chief diety of the Western Semites and father of all other gods except Baal.

I wonder if Ladon/Lotan is the same as the Welsh sea god Dewi, the Great Red Dragon.

I apologize for my absence which I went on a 3 day road trip to the Rocky Mountains in British Colombia to deliver machine parts to a Lumber outfit there. We drove non stop for 4000 km in a rented Ford Cargo van (piece of...). It was very tense driving through the mountains at night with poor visibility and animals (Moose,elk,deers)jumping in front of you as your driving along treacherous inclines and curves. Fortunately,I didn't hit any,and at one point I miraculously drove between 2 deer ,who jumped across,at 120 km hour!!

I will never do this again,that's for sure.
Not that way anyway.

The Greek sun-god Apollo was born in the Cyclades, on the island of Delos. Legend claims that he travelled for about 3 months each year, to a northwest hyperborea where he was associated with the apples of the Hesperides. (This supplemented Apollo's connection with the Cycladic "apple-island" of Melos.)

The Hyperborean Apollo theme is patently a legend about Cyclades merchants, and the way they aquired "tears of the sun", meaning drops of Amber from the vicinity of the Baltic Sea. Archeologists have found replicas near Lisbon Portugal (dating roughly 2000 BC) of Cyclades pottery.

However, another image grew up in which amber was called "golden apples of the sun". This image stands behind the Hesperides legends of Greek myth (which led to the Atlantis themes).

In ancient times the Greeks were vague about amber. So they accepted the idea that it grew on an apple tree, and dropped to earth like apples.

The Greek demi-god Heracles was sent by the trading superpower of his era (Mycenae) to find and bring back the Golden Apples of the Hesperides (=west). Hesiod (ca. 800 BC)wrote about that journey. But what I find in Hesiod tells me that the proto-Greeks of both the "hyperborean Apollo" theme and the "apples of the Hesperides" theme did NOT actually go to the vicinity of Britain and the Baltic sea.

Hesiod says that Heracles used an intermediary named Nereus (i.e. the archtype of Plato's 100 neriads in Atlantis). Homer said that Nereus had been deputized (by Poseidon) to govern the whole Mediterranean Sea -- for the period before the Dorian god Poteidan arrived in power (i.e. befoe the Dorian invasion of 1300 BC.). http://www.atlantida.gr/Eng/engAtlas_with_hercules.htm

In that era, the Atlantic trade route was conducted using what Hesiod called a "sailing bronze earthenware vessel".

(Odysses encounted a similar oddity, he sailed the Atlantic in a golden tea-cup.)

The message of these myths, to me at least, is that merchandise was traveling by middlemen, packed in pottery containers (earthen tea cups?) which were either bronze of golden in color. And consequently, Heracles and the Hyperborean Apollo did not sail directly to the Avalon/Abalum "Apple Island". (Disillusion would have spoiled the myth, wouldn't it?)

Tin-trade used Cadiz as its trans-shiping hub. And the Golden Apples of the Sun (Hyperborean Apollo) seem to have done the same. At least that would explain why a temple of Heracles, commemorating his quest for the apples, was built near Cadiz.

Atlas can readily enough be associated with the gods of Britain. He was of the Titan breed, and the brother of Albion, who, like him, was a son of Poseidon. Albion was the original tutelary god of Britain. Both Atlas and Albion contested the western passage of Heracles. According to Pomponius Mela, Albion with his brother Iberius (the god of Ireland) the sons of Poseidon, challenged and fought the Greek demi-god near Aries. Albion is also that Alba, from which Scotland takes her name of Albany. There was thus a family or gens of Titans connected with the western ocean, and if Albion and Iberius can be associated with the British Isles, to which, indeed, their names still powerfully adhere, it is only reasonable to assunie that Atlas was also once the tutelary divinity of a western land in the ocean with which myth persistenty connects his name.

quote:

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Hesiod says that Heracles used an intermediary named Nereus (i.e. the archtype of Plato's 100 neriads in Atlantis). Homer said that Nereus had been deputized (by Poseidon) to govern the whole Mediterranean Sea -- for the period before the Dorian god Poteidan arrived in power (i.e. befoe the Dorian invasion of 1300 BC.). http://www.atlantida.gr/Eng/engAtlas_with_hercules.htm

In that era, the Atlantic trade route was conducted using what Hesiod called a "sailing bronze earthenware vessel".

(Odysses encounted a similar oddity, he sailed the Atlantic in a golden tea-cup.)

The message of these myths, to me at least, is that merchandise was traveling by middlemen, packed in pottery containers (earthen tea cups?) which were either bronze of golden in color. And consequently, Heracles and the Hyperborean Apollo did not sail directly to the Avalon/Abalum "Apple Island". (Disillusion would have spoiled the myth, wouldn't it?)

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The following was is from Ignatius Donnelly's book on Atlantis:

"The Magnet was called the 'Stone of Hercules.' Hercules was the patron deity of the Phoenicians. He was, as we have shown elsewhere, one of the Gods of Atlantis - probably one of its great kings and navigators... Hercules, it was said, being once overpowered by the heat of the sun, drew his bow against that luminary: whereupon the god Phoebus, admiring his intrepidity, gave him a golden cup, with which he sailed over the ocean. This cup was the compass, which old writers have called Lapis Heracleus. Pisander says Oceanus lent him the cup, but Lucian says it was a seashell. Tradition affirms that the magnet originally was not on a pivot, but set to float on water in a cup. Some even see a compass in the Golden Fleece of Argos, and in the oracular needle which Nero worshipped... Hercules was, as we now, a god of Atlantis, and Oceanos, who lent the magnetic cup to Hercules, was the name by which the Greeks designated the Atlantic Ocean. And this may be the explanation of the recurrence of a cup in many antique paintings and statues. Hercules was also represented with a cup in his hand... So oracular an object as this self-moving needle, always pointing to the north, would doubtless affect vividly the minds of the people, and appear in their works of art. When Hercules left the coast of Europe to sail to the island of Erythea in the Atlantic, in the remote west, we are told, in Greek mythology, that he borrowed the cup of Helios, in with which he was accustomed to sail every night. Here we seem to have a reference to the magnetic cup used in night-sailing; and this is another proof that the use of the magnetic needle in sea voyages was associated with the Atlantean Gods."

Regards, Beau Berger

In the Bible,Isaiah 6:2 he tells us also of a six winged horse called the Seraphim

In our topic of Orichalcum,I mentioned that a "resin" could possibly have been used to coat brass or gold to give it sheen and a fiery look.

It seems that this AMBER could have been this resin and as posted above, reasons to be the purpose of the use of this resin,hence the search for the Golden Apples,which seems quite scarce. This seems to explain why orichalcum later became only a name. Amber as we know has a reddish, gold appearance.

Orichalcum was used quite extensively on floors,walls and pillars. Coated with Amber,it would give the appearance of a "waxed" floor or surface.

This must have been a remarkable sight to behold.

Perhaps,they may have even melted the amber together with copper and tin,producing orichalcum.

It is quite interesting how Atalante and Elemental have connected Atlantis to King Arthur and Avalon. Perhaps this search for the Holy Grail has something to do with the light the Atlantean kings first saw?

Look at IceLand.

What is that we see in this Ocean Topographic map?

I believe this is one of the most important, and also one of the EARLIEST, themes about Atlantis; and I date it around 1300-1200 BC, when Heracles is presumed to have been active (i.e. one or two generations before the Trojan War.)

The setting for this quest-myth is when Mycenae had replaced Crete as a trading super-power, after the Thera explosion which ruined Crete around 1470 BC. (At the beginning of the myth, Heracles encounters peaceful Atlanteans, but later he also encounters the hostile sons of Poseidon: and in almost the exact geographical regions where Plato cites the Atlanean invasion.)

Hercules actually starts this mission, at the request of Mycenae, by going to Libya: where the Atarantes dwell. Herodotus claims that those people "curse the (Egyptian/Ra) sun". Hercules made friends with those Atarantes by shooting an arrow at the Sun. Consequently Hercules obtained a magical gift from the Atarantean version of the sun, namely a cup in which he could sail the Atlantic Ocean as far as Erithyea Island (Gadira Spain).

When he gets to Cadiz/Gadir, Hercules encounters a people who arose "out of the blood" which dripped from Medusa's head, after mythical Perseus (the founder of Mycenae) had killed/superseded Medusa around Lake Tritonis, Africa. I take this to mean that Chrysaor and Geryon (who were said to live at Cadiz/Gadira) were a colony of the Libyan Atarantes. The richest mining district in south WEST Spain was inland from Erythia/Gadira; and this was probably important to the merchants of Mycenae.

Hercules acquires a herd of cattle at Cadiz, and then begins his trip home. Hercules stops for a while at the most important ancient mining center in South EAST Spain, during the phase which modern archaelogists call the El Argar culture (2200 BC- 1200 BC). However in this Heracles myth, the region is named Abderia, borrowing an anachronistic name from the Phoenician colony Abdera which was founded in the region much later (around 800 BC.)

Modern archaeologists know that the El Argar culture raised horses and cattle, and that the copper in their mines contained enough arsenic to form a natural Bronze, without needing tin. So they were one of the EARLIEST BRONZE-AGE societies in the Mediterranean. (An earlier phase around 3000 BC is called the Los Millares culture. And there are even some Copper-Age sites nearby which date back to 5000 BC.) http://www.mediterranean-archaeology.net/argar.html

Hercules was apparently on friendly terms with the El Argar culture (or the "Abderians" in his myth). Its easy to note similarities of this early Bronze Age society (El Argar) to Plato's Atlantis (i.e. horses, cattle, EARLY-bronze, gold, silver, copper).

But at the next stopping point, Heracles encountered the Sea-Pirate People, who are known to have terrorized much of the Mediterranean Sea around 1300-1180 BC. Two leaders of those Sea Pirate People in Liguria were "two sons of Poseidon". The one who served as a model for (later)
Brittish myths about Albion -- is named Ialebion in the Greek myth of Heracles. (The other son of Poseidon who ambushed Heracles was named Dercynus.)

What was once called Liguria is now the region around the modern port city of Genoa, Italy. And its people believe they arrived around 2000-1500 BC, from the vicinity of Phoenicia. Upon arrival in "italus/itali" (literally "bull land"; but perhaps resembling the fabled Sanscrit "western" land of Atala) the Ligurians settled among the "Ambrones", whom they believed to be one of the earliest tribes of Celts which had migrated from Iberia. Liguria's land is sheltered from the north by the Maritime Alps mountains (cf. Plato said Atlantis was open to the South, and sheltered from the cold North wind). http://phoenicia.org/genoa.html

At the southeast extreme of the Ligurians (but not mentioned in the Hercules myth) there was a port city of the Lucca people. http://pirate.shu.edu/~vigorimi/genealogy/first_millenium_BC.html

(Those Lucca/Lukku people seem seem to have invaded Egypt (unsuccessfully) during the reign of Merneptah ca. 1220 BC. The Lukku are also mentioned previously in Hittite records, as living in the vicinity of Lycia, Turkey.)

After subduing the Ligurians, Hercules next encountered another "son of Poseidon" named Eryx (who is called Aries in the later Brittish versions of this theme) on Sicily-- a functional equivalent of the Shekelesh (another Sea People who tried to assist the Lukku in their 1220 BC invasion of Egypt).
http://www.courses.psu.edu/cams/cams400w_aek11/www/shekelesh.htm

Heracles was encountering so much trouble with these Sea Peoples that he had to devise an alternate route to get home to Greece. Heracles decided to go travel far to the north through Thrace, cross south into Turkey, and finally approach Greece from the east. That huge itinerary should tell us how much trouble the Sea Peoples were causing along the shores of the eastern Mediterranean at that time (1300-1200 BC).

The mythical cattle, which Heracles was obtaining for the king of Mycenaean merchants, can be regarded as "chattel". And based on etymology, this becomes a bit clearer when we relate chattel to its Latin source word "capital(=possesions)".

Hercules seems to be the only real character we have that personifies Atlas.
Which, as we see plays an important role in providing clues to Atlantean cultures.

What seems apparent to me is that the reason we see Atalanteans around 1200 bC is due to their migration into the Lake Tritonis area. I feel the last destruction was around 6482 bC and the Atlanteans had already migrated prior to this.

It also seems that there would be a connection to the Sea Peoples, as Erick is reviewing, based on this migration. However, I believe they were two distinctly separate cultures who joined forces around 1200 bC.

If I remember his posts correctly, Erick has been poking around in books that propose the Etruscans (and their Etrurian region) were the remnants of the Sea Peoples.

What I proposed in my most recent post may go deeper than what I sense to be in Erick's source material.

The Roman name Liguria meant "those who dwell behind (the Etruscans)". My impression (and its probably 2000 or 2500 years too late to be proved either true or false) is that the "Lucca" tribal name was metamorphed by early Roman vocabularies when they devised their vague Roman
name: "Ligures". The Etruscans probably did not move inland (into Italy) until roughly 1000 BC. And we can be confident that Aeneas waited until after BOTH the Tyrsennoi/Etruscans and also the Dido/Cartheginians were successful at creating land based nations -- before Aeneas led his followers (775 BC) from Sardinia (=sea peoples, Sherdanu) into a land-base at Rome.

However, it was the Ambrones tribe ("amber route??"), the substrate people among whom the Sea Peoples were settling in Liguria, who resemble Atlanteans. The Ambrones were Celts and Bell-Beaker people; and many modern scholars accept an origin in Central Spain for the Bell-Beaker Culture.

From the standpoint of Greek Nationalism, the mythical victory of Hercules over the Ligurians paved the way for Greece to establish a colony in western Liguria, at Marseille, around 800 BC. (Coincidentally, this 800 BC was almost exactly the time when the Sardinians/Aeneas colonized Rome.) Marseille was an endpoint for both the Amber-route and the Tin-route across Europe.

Even the mythical voyage of the Argonauts seems to have returned to the Mediterranean Sea (from Europe) at Marseille. I presume the European phase of that voyage of the Argonauts was imaginary. But the Argo's trip to Colchis is accepted by some scholars as a real event-- dating around 1450-1500 BC (thus matching the dates of "quasi-historic" voyages to colonize Athens and Peloponesia from Turkey).

In summary, some Atlantean descendents may have controlled the amber-route and the tin-route across Europe: until roughly 1500 BC. Rumors about the mythical Argonaut-route (amber route; tin route; etc.) caused Sardinia to become the first haven for Sea-Pirate Peoples around 1500 BC. If I recall properly, the mythical bronze robot who was affiliated with Minoan Crete: a) was named Talos; and b) was considered to have come to Crete from Sardinia.

Doesn't etymology tell us that "A-tlas" should be the "opposite/competitor" of Talos?

The most likely way for a Pirate nation to be successful is if there is wealth floating around, and thus available to be plundered.
So the existence of those Sea-Pirate Peoples all around the Mediterranean (1500-1200 BC) may be an indication that the Sea Peoples themselves plundered and destroyed the economic basis of the descendents of (an earlier) Atlantis.

Egyptian Shu corresponds to Greek Uranus.
Egyption Geb corresponds to Greek Cronus.

Geb was the Egyptian god of mining, geology, pulse-food: and he lived in a fortress (the city of Atlantis?) which was located on a "Golden Pond", named At Nub (since Nub = "gold" for ancient Egyptians).

Cronos presided over the Greek "golden Age", when people lived as mesolithic hunter-gatherers in a (southern?) climate which had no winter.

Zeus imprisoned the Geb/Cronos people(i.e. titans) underground near Africa's Atlas mountains, and taught his (Pelasgian/Cyclades/Cretan) Greek descendents to live where the winters were colder than in Africa. The Dorian river-god Poteidan (=Poseidon), personifiying a "Dan"-ubian route to the sources of tin, arrived around the Aegean Sea at 1200 BC (while the Sea-Pirate People were disrupting the western routes to the "cassiterides" tin-isles). So Poseidon ended up sharing his (tin and water) resources with Zeus. Zeus and Poseidon decided to co-reign from a middle-ground between their previous zones of action -- namely Mt Olympus.

Solon and Plato innovated a bit when they described Geb's "golden pond" as three moats, sandwiched between 4 metalic walls.
But it seems that the Atlantis theme conforms to nearly all of "proto-history".

Your almost due for the golden trident award!

Re;Iceland impact and Mt.Hekla,Vesuvius;

Dr. Abbott and Dr. Isley, writing in Earth and Planetary Science Letters,
report that their statistical analysis shows, with 97 percent confidence,
that 9 of 10 periods of heavy meteor bombardment corresponded to periods of
massive volcanism.
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc031103.html

"When the Sky God had taken the heavens
And the Air God (had taken) the earth,
When Ereshkigal was given the Great Below for her domain,
The God of Wisdom, Father Enki, set sail for the underworld"

We know Ereshkigal rules the underworld and it seems like Enki compares to Thoth.

"Gilgamesh, the hero of Uruk,
Stood by Inanna ...
He lifted his bronze ax,"

Bronze age,probably 2500-2100 bC.

"From the roots of the tree
She fashioned a pukku for her brother.
From the crown of the tree
Inanna fashioned a mikku for Gilgamesh,
The hero of Uruk."

"In the Poem of the Huluppu tree, there are mentioned mikku and pukku, words whose meaning the sumerologists have not been able to translate."

I sense that mikku and pukku are the same as the Egyptian Manu and Bakhu Mountains.

So,Poseidon has six-winged horses and the Bible has Seraphims....hmmm.

"The boundless sea rang terribly around,
And the earth crashed loudly:
Wide Heaven was shaken and groaned,
And high Olympus reeled from its foundation
Under the charge of the undying gods,
And a heavy quaking reached dim Tartarus
And the deep sound of their feet in the fearful onset
And of their hard missiles.
So, then, they launched their grievous shafts upon one another,
And the cry of both armies as they shouted
Reached to starry heaven;
And they met together with a great battle-cry.
"Then Zeus no longer held back his might;
But straight his heart was filled with fury
And he showed forth all his strength.
From Heaven and from Olympus he came forthwith,
Hurling his lightning:
The bold flew thick and fast
From his strong hand
Together with thunder and lightning,
Whirling an awesome flame.
The life-giving earth crashed around in burning,
And the vast wood crackled loud with fire all about.
All the land seethed,
And Ocean's streams
And the unfruitful sea.
The hot vapour lapped round the earthborn Titans:
Flame unspeakable rose to the bright upper air:
The flashing glare of the thunder-stone and lightning
Blinded their eyes for all that there were strong.
Astounding heat seized Chaos:
And to see with eyes and to hear the sound with ears
It seemed even as if Earth and wide Heaven above came together;
For such a mighty crash would have arisen
If Earth were being hurled to ruin,
And Heaven from on high were hurling her down;
So great a crash was there
While the gods were meeting together in strife.
Also the winds brought rumbling earthquake and duststorm,
Thunder and lightning and the lurid thunderbolt,
Which are the shafts of great Zeus,
And carried the clangour and the warcry
Into the midst of the two hosts.

An horrible uproar of terrible strife arose:
Mighty deeds were shown and the battle inclined.
But until then,
They kept at one another
And fought continually in cruel war.
And amongst the foremost Cottus and Briareos
And Gyes insatiate for war raised fierce fighting:

Three hundred rocks,
One upon another,
They launched from their strong hands
And overshadowed the Titans with their missiles,
And buried them beneath the wide-pathed earth,
And bound them in bitter chains
When they had conquered them by their strength
For all their great spirit,
As far beneath the earth to Tartarus.
For a brazen anvil
Falling down from heaven nine nights and days
Would reach the earth upon the tenth:
And again,
A brazen anvil
Falling from earth nine nights and days
Would reach Tartarus upon the tenth.

Round it runs a fence of bronze,
And night spreads in triple line all about it like a neck-circlet,
While above grow the roots of the earth and unfruitful sea.
There by the counsel of Zeus who drives the clouds
The Titan gods are hidden under misty gloom,
In a dank place where are the ends of the huge earth.

Was Atland Atlantis?
The mystery of the Oera Linda book.

Now there is a very interesting coincidence. There exists one very old Frisian manuscript named the Oera Linda book. It's forewords were written in AD 1256, although its main section was a diary kept about 2000 years, which was put together 560-558 BC. However the scientific community condemned it as a forgery in 1871. We can ask if that was too hasty a conclusion. The most interesting data we have from it is that Atland was destroyed 3449 years before the forewords were written, that means 2194 BC.

Or was it 4009 bC?

I don't know about you guys/gals,but I've seen more than enough evidence to put Atlantis sinking past 2000 bC!!

Some excerpts from Oera Linda Book
http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/tilmari/tilmari7.htm#tunguska

I have a surprise coming for you Atlanteans Santa said it's okay!