I'm afraid I'm not real sure what your point is in your last post. To answer your question, though, "Lindian Athene" is just a way to refer to the Athena that the Greeks at Lindos worshipped.

Respectfully,

Erick

Where exactly does it say in either the Timaeus or Critias that the priest read the name Phaethon to Solon from the hieroglyphic record? Let me help you out here - it doesn't.

In every translation I could find, including my own, nowhere does it say that the priest read the name to Solon from any Egyptian hieroglyphics. In fact, the priest says to Solon:

quote:

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C This [is the] cause thereupon [for] the latter. Many destructions and against much mankind and property have taken place, indeed fire and water mostly, tens of thousands [of the one] but seldom one of the other. For verily and therefore from your sayings, just as once upon a time Helios’ son Phaethon harnessed his father’s chariot & horses therefore not able to go along the father’s course and upon the land with to burn and he was destroyed [having been] struck with thunderbolts, this tale indeed the form it is said to have,

Metaphrastic Translation by E. w. Wright

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From the Greek sayings, not the Egyptian. Additionally. it was the form of that story that the Egyptian story shared - not the event itself.

Lastly, I don't know where in the heck this "planetary bodies" crap came about, but that is the absolute 'loosest' translation I could imagine for that passage. This is where the erroneous belief that an asteroid, or comet, or some other such-like thing was responsible for the destruction of Atlantis. This reference to Phaethon is nothing more than an allusion to "drought". I believe I covered this in an earlier post in this thread.

quote:

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The presence of the story about Phaethon and his father's chariot was used to explain a variation in the course of the sun as the cause of drought. The reference to drought directly correlates to the severe drought that accompanied the period of ca. 1200 BC, and preceded the Invasions of the Libyans and Sea Peoples into Egypt. This drought was recorded by the Egyptians, as was also the amount of grain that the Egyptians sent to the Hittites, and others, during that drought. The reference to the Nile having been a saviour to the Egyptians and to all others is most likely a reference to the fact that the Egyptians did send 'relief shipments' of grain to other nations, like the Hittites. Undoubtedly, this would have made it more difficult for the Nile to continue to preserve the Egyptians themselves. Plato clearly states that the cause of problems for the Greeks during the drought was the disappearance of their rivers (i.e. rivers failed) from their cities to the sea. This would mean that the lowlands would not have recieved the water necessary for crop irrigation, most likely resulting in crop failure, famine, etc.. The references to "water flowing upon the fields from on high" and "water rising up from below natually" is a comparison of rivers levels fed by rainwater vs. annual inundation (such as the Nile's).

Post from 04-18-2003 (17:25)

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Respectfully,

Erick

Ramses III claims that he began his reign when outsiders had invaded most of Egypt. But he claims to have fought back against these Sea Peoples. Ramses III bought a large supply of a previously unknown metal (which he calls "hmt"), from a place called Atika, and the shipment was delivered by ships of Atika. (Presumably Ramses III used a lot of hmt metal to equip his army.)

Solon would probably guess that this place (Atika) was his native Attica, the environs of Athens.

Modern scholars disagree about what metal was meant by the word hmt. Some think it was copper or silver. But for a beseiged Bronze Age ruler, the most vital metal would probably be TIN. Tin is a rare component which is needed to make bronze. At that time, Europe, Africa, and Asia could accress only had one large deposit of tin: in Cornwall, Britain.

Crete tried to monopolize the sea-going tin trade during 1800-1450 BC, and kept it a trade secret. But after 1450 BC, Mycenae replaced Crete as the dominant traders in the Mediterranean Sea. And of course, Athens was not far from Mycenae.

The Greek myth about the golden apples (or mystery-metal ingots) of the Hesperides covers a very similar issue. That myth depicts Athena in the role of arbitrator for who should, or should not, be allowed to have objects made from a mystery metal (i.e the golden apples).

When a meteorite fell at Thrace near Aegospotami,

Aristotle was forced to take the position that strong winds had lifted an Earth rock into the sky, then dropped it..
http://www.unmuseum.org/rocksky.htm

son Phaethon. (I see two things here.)

Once this impetuous youth tried to steer his father's radiant chariot, but he quickly lost control. Only the timely action of Zeus steadied its runaway horses and prevented the earth from catching fire.

Phaethon fell from the vehicle and was drowned. (Phaethon FELL? )

However, Helios had many other children, among them Augeas, Circe and Pasiphae. A gigantic statue of the sun god was erected at the harbour of Rhodes, an island sacred to him. This so-called Colossus was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, but was toppled by an earthquake around 226 BC.

Phaethon and the Chariot (for schools) http://www.hipark.austin.isd.tenet.edu/home/mythology/phaeton.html

Version of Phaethon placing Phaethon in Ethiopia,  indicating his father is Apollo. Meets his father east of India at the end of the world. Also tells the aftermath:

"The horses ran home while pieces of the wrecked chariot fell hissing into the sea.

( HISSING into the sea ? What does that sound like?)

Phaethon: a small asteroid whose orbit brings it close to the sun causing it to release fragments of dust which enter the Earth's atmosphere as meteors. Phaethon was a character in ancient Greek mythology. He was the son of Helios, the sun god, who rode his chariot across the sky each day. One day Phaethon took his father's place and attempted to drive the sun across the sky just as his father did. He was unable to control the horses that pulled the chariot and so the sun was all over the road.. er.. sky. It came so close to the Earth that there was danger it would be consumed in fire. The great god Zeus must have noticed this and hurled a thunderbolt at Phaethon which, according to legend, averted the catastrophe (where photons tumble like Phaethon / from his chariot for hire)
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Bistro/8066/glossary.html

Finding tobacco and cocaine in a few Egyptian mummies a decade ago really surprized the scientific community. And the website I listed above goes on to say that 1/3 of all mummies from the Sudan also seem to contain tobacco and cocaine.

But this is mostly just evidence of trade contacts.

I don't think this prove's Jim Allen's concept that Bolivia was the original model for Plato's Atlantis.

Solon visited Egypt around 590 BC, while he was taking a 10 year vacation from his homeland.

Pharoah Necco II, who ruled Egypt from 610 to 595 BC, had established the first Egyptian navy (and recruited as many Greek sailors as possible, since there were very few Egyptians who know how to sail). Necco II was a very ambitious and intelligent leader. He cut a canal from the Nile delta to the Red Sea (i.e. a prototype for the modern Suez Canal). Then he sent an expedition eastward down the Red Sea with orders to follow the coastline indefinitely. Three years later, Necco's sailors returned to the Nile delta, via the Straights of Gibralter and the Mediterannean Sea.

This (600 BC) was the first time anyone from Europe, Africa, or Asia had ever circumnavigated Africa. Merely circumnavigating Africa was an astounding achievement in that era.

I believe that the story which Solon heard from his Egyptian priests (just 15 years after the FIRST circumnavigation of Africa), was that:

The Mediterranean Sea should be compared to a "harbor", and that the "true" ocean outside the straits of Gibralter was much bigger than the Mediterannean Sea. The "true" ocean contains islands, which can help in navigating it. But since all water must be "contained" by banks of some sort, it followed logically that some form of continent (i.e containment banks) must encircle the large body of water which Egyptians had demonstrated to be the "true" Ocean.

quote:

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One thing we know for certain. It did not go unrecorded on the column of stone in the Egyptian College of Priests at Saïs. For there the name of Phaeton, or Phaethon, was carved in hieroglyphics and read out, together with the story of Atlantis, to Solon in 571 B.C. This name was specifically mentioned by the Egyptian priests who gave him the account of Atlantis, as a myth whose real meaning was a drastic disturbance of the planetary bodies bringing catastrophes to Earth. Atlantis was destroyed, they said, in just such a disaster.

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Again, where exactly in Plato's Atlantis story (in the Timaeus or Critias) does it say that the Egyptian priest read the name Phaethon to Solon??? Phaethon is a Greek name and would therefore NOT have been present in any Egyptian hieroglyphic temple records. It is possible that a similar Egyptian myth was recorded at Sais, but, once again, nowhere does it ever say that the priest read that myth to Solon. You are introducing as fact information that is not in evidence. If such a story was found in Egyptian myth, it would have been in regards to the royal sun barge of Ra, not of Phaethon or Helios.

quote:

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"From the year in which the stone (a meteorite) fell at Aegospotami and Simonides the poet died, having lived for 90 years, 205 years, in the archonship at Athens of Theagenides (468/7 BC)."

This is a bad translation?

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Yes, in fact it is in English a bad translation. It should read instead:

"205 years from the year in which the stone fell at Aegospotami and Simonides the poet died, having lived for 90 years, in the archonship at Athens of Theagenides."

Everything else (in parenthesis) has been added by the translator. If the archonship of Theagenides at Athens was in the years 468/7 BC, and that same year a stone fell at Aegospotami, and that same year Simonides the poet also died, then 205 years from that date would be 263/2 BC.

quote:

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Erick,a variation in the course of the sun as the cause of drought. How ?

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I did not say that a variation in the course of the sun was what really happened. In fact, a sustained northward shift of the "jet stream" is what is commonly believed to have caused the drought of ca. 1200 BC. The ancient Egyptians, however, had no concept of, nor knowledge of, the jet stream. Their perception of the cause of the drought would most likely have been that the royal sun barge of Ra had taken a course through the sky that brought it closer to the earth.

quote:

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this tale indeed the form it is said to have,
D but the truth is [that] around the earth and in respect of the heavens (i.e. sky) [it (i.e. the sun)] goes across and throughout great lengths of time [it] changes to become a fire of great destruction upon the earth. In those times as verily observed by and in high places and in dry dwelling places, [they] perished more than [those] neighboring the river and the sea; but the Nile [to] ourselves and to all others [was] a protector and from this in those times the difficulty to preserve increased. Whereas whenever the gods inundated the land once more making [it] clean, surely in the midst of the mountains the herdsmen and [their] flocks were preserved,
E but from in the midst of your cities to into the sea below the rivers failed;

Translation by E. W. Wright

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Now what, in your opinion, about a meteor impact would cause rivers to fail, would protect those neighboring the sea and rivers, but would prove deadly to those in the high places and dry-dwelling places? In fact, a meteor impact would result in consequences opposite to those listed above. Those neighboring the rivers and sea would have been at greatest danger, not the least. And what about the Nile would have protected them from an impact event?

No, an impact event makes absolutly no sense in relation to the rest of the information contained within the text, whereas 'drought' correlates with all of the rest of the info., as well as with known history.

Around the earth and across the sky; sounds like the sun to me. It also fits with the ancient belief that the earth was the center of the universe and the sun and stars revolved around it.

Respectfully,

Erick

Regarding the cocaine, I believe that it will eventually be discovered that some plant, with alkaloid properties, indigenous to Africa and/or the Near East, and used by the Egyptians in their embalming practices, will be found to be the culprit that resulted in what I refer to as a "false positive".

Regarding the nicotine, there is a plant called Nicotias africanus, which is indigenous to Africa, that may, in some way, be responsible for the Nicotine readings. The mere fact that the nicotine readings are 35 times higher in the Egyptian mummies than in smokers of today (a toxic level, I might add), should suggest to the reader that this is the result of the mummification process. In fact, an Egyptologist discovered that the wrappings of some egyptian mummies contained fibers of the tobacco plant. This is not surprising in the sense that nicotine is a great insecticide; its as deadly to them as it is to us (funny, coming from a smoker, eh?).

For most of life's mysteries, the answers are very simple. I would suspect that this is no different.

As to Jim Allen, I have read his book and examined his "evidence" and found it to be lacking and without substance.

Regarding trans-oceanic or trans-Atlantic travel before Cristopher Columbus, I have considered this in the past and also found it to be without substance. I have dismissed this theory as "extremely improbable".

Respectfully,

Erick

quote:

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Finding tobacco and cocaine in a few Egyptian mummies a decade ago really surprized the scientific community. And the website I listed above goes on to say that 1/3 of all mummies from the Sudan also seem to contain tobacco and cocaine.

But this is mostly just evidence of trade contacts.

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Please forgive me Atalante, but I feel that I must correct you here. The presence of nicotine and cocaine is SUGGESTIVE of trade contacts, but it is NOT evidence of trade contacts. Evidence of trade contacts would be something tangible, such as a Mycenaean pottery sherd found in situ at the excavation of a Mayan site.

Respectfully,

Erick

quote:

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Ramses III bought a large supply of a previously unknown metal (which he calls "hmt"), from a place called Atika, and the shipment was delivered by ships of Atika. (Presumably Ramses III used a lot of hmt metal to equip his army.)

---

I have not read this anywhere, in any of my research material. What is your source for this information?

Respectfully,

Erick

In regards to the source of cocaine and tobacco, I agree that "false positives" may eventually be found, which could be similar to our cocaine and tobacco. In my preious post, I mentioned that lots of mummies in a poor district like Sudan were using such substances. So I suspect there may have been local sources.

Erik, I can't believe that you believe this. Its been shown by genetics, the mitrochondrial DNA, that migrations to North America began from Europe and Asia beginning about 25,000 years ago. You really can't be that shortsighted to believe that North and South Amerindians sprang up all by themselves, parallel to the Africian lineages? Come on, 1492 was yesterday, where do you propose native peoples came from if not Mitochondrial Eve? Who do you think the ancestors of the Cohokian People were?

quote:

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Regarding trans-oceanic or trans-Atlantic travel before Cristopher Columbus, I have considered this in the past and also found it to be without substance. I have dismissed this theory as "extremely improbable".

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Think you're going to be out voted on this one Erick Few now dispute that the Vikings managed pre-Colombian trans-atlantic travel and there is circumstantial evidence for the Chinese crossing the Pacific (see http://www.1421.tv/ for more details).

Heyerdahl's experiements also proved that other, earlier, cultures could have managed long oceanic voyages. I think it is quite probable that such voyages did occur.

The Argar culture was Bronze Age; and it evolved from a previous Copper Age culture at the same location (dating back to 3000 BC), which is called Millaran culture.

Servicing both of those cultures was a group of merchant-traders known as the Bell Beaker people, who spread out across Europe, including Spain and Portugal in the south and reaching England in the North.

The Argar culture did its own mining for Copper and Tin, and produced some bronze items. Serious scientists regard this argar culture as the SOURCE of the tin which facilitated the whole Mediterranean Bronze age. A small number of Argar bronze items have been found recently with dates as early as 2200 BC. But the peak of activity for the Argar culture was 1700BC-1400BC. This time period matches well with the period of Minoan dominance in the Mediterranean.

Small orders for bronze could be filled by using the locally available Spanish tin supplies. And if a large order for Bronze needed to be filled, the Bell Beaker people could carry tin from Cornwall England to the metal workers of the Argar culture.

Obviously the rise of this Argar culture was a benefit the merchants of Crete, because it eliminated the need for voyages into the Atlantic Ocean.

The end of the Argar culture came abruptly at 1200 BC.

Surely, the end of this metal-supplying Argar culture would have impacted the Bronze-Age kingdoms (at the opposite end of the Mediterranean) when those kingdoms were being overwhelmed (also around 1200 BC) by Sea Peoples.

Regarding the metal [hmt]:

quote:

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We must understand that the Egyptian `hmt' is not a specific term for copper but could mean any metal. Therefore we should not assume that James Breasted's translation of `copper' is necessarily correct.

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Regarding the Argar culture of southeast Spain, I would have to do more research on them, but it does sound intriguing. Congratulations, my interest is piqued.

Respectfully,

Erick

Perhaps I should have been less abrupt on my response to you regarding Jim Allen. Jim Allen's work was very thorough, however, he failed (in my opinion) to ask the correct questions, and that, in turn, led him to reach some erroneous conclusions. Aside from that, he places Atlantis on the wrong side of South America for it to even be considered a possibility.

Regarding the cocaine & nicotine issue, I understand and recognize your points. I am a person that tends to be very cynical as I have watched, time and time again, as potentially incredible, so-called, discoveries ended up having very simple, mundane, reasons for existing. This has led me to be the type of person that just expects that every new, incredible discovery will end up having a very simple, mundane, explanation. In the case of the cocaine & nicotine in the mummies, it is my belief that the end result of an intensive study of the matter will ultimately reveal that this was a "side-effect", or by-product, of the mummification process. No Egyptologist likes to admit it, but the mummification process is still not completely understood. There is a very didtinct possibility that the various compounds used for mumification, when mixed together, react with each other, causing us to receive (as Atalante put it) a "false negative".

I absolutely do not believe that there was sustained, repeated, trade contact between the "Old World" and the "New World", nor do I believe that the nicotine and cocaine were ever a result of such a scenario. Is it possible that a single ship, on one single occasion, got carried by the currents of the Atlantic Ocean and found itself lost and alone on the distant shores of South America? Yes, it is possible, but again, it is highly improbable. The Atlantic Ocean, even in the time of Christopher Columbus, was considered to be a forbidding and dangerous place. It was the end of the world - a place sailors feared to go. Might some intrepid sailors have overcome their fears and attempted the journey? Again, yes, its possible, although unlikely.

Certainly the Vikings did come, at one point, to the shores of Canada, where they founded a small, temporary, colony near New Brunswick, but even that was short-lived. The archaeological evidence shows that the colony was unable to be maintained for more than a few years. Sustained trading contact did not begin with the "New World" until the time of Christopher Columbus.

Thor Heyerdahl's experiment was succesful at proving only one thing - that it was possible for a culture to have sailed from the Canary Islands to South America using the oceanic currents to take them there. Thor's experiment did not, however, prove that it was possible for an ancient culture to have sailed from South America to Europe or Africa. That trip would have been an entirely different matter! In order for them to return using the Atlantic's oceanic currents, they would have had to take a path that would have carried them up the American and Canadian coasts, across to Greenland, and then over to Europe and down to the Straits of Gibraltar. This path through the North Sea would have been extremely perilous and it is highly doubtful that a ship such as the "Kontiki" could have survived the journey. If Jim Allen wants to cite Thor Heyerdahl's experiment as the basis for his argument for trans-Atlantic travel, inter-continental communication, and Atlantis in Bolivia, then he has picked a poor experiment to use as the example for his argument.

I will try to make an effort to check out your postings in the Egyptological discussions you mentioned, but I can't promise anything for awhile. I have a great deal going on right now.

Respectfully,

Erick

Welcome to the forum. This particular thread in the forum is intended to discuss the more 'reality-based' aspects of the Atlantis topic - the scientific aspects, if you will. If you wish to discuss aspects of an alleged 'past life', then you would need to participate in a different thread within this forum. I'm sure you will find that there will be no shortage of individuals in this forum willing to discuss that topic with you. If you have something of scientific importance or relevance to discuss, then please feel free to return to this thread to contribute. If not, then I woud ask that you please refrain from posting in this particular thread. This is not a personal attack on you, but rather merely an attempt to prevent this thread from being swept away into the realm of the non-scientific - an occurence that is all too frequent in this forum.

Respectfully,

Erick

Of course, I do believe in Mitochondrial DNA and the migrations into the Americas via the Bering land-bridge. I do not, however, ascribe the populating of the Americas to Atlantis in any way whatsoever. Scientific investigation has indeed shown that some populations may have arrived by boat from Asia, but the definitive evidence has yet to surface on that point. Until it does, I prefer to leave that issue as it currently stands - as a possibility that is not difinitive.

By the way, the most recent date that I read/heard about for migration to the Americas was no earlier than 15,000 years ago (13,000 BCE).

Respectfully,

Erick

Under the topic titled Los Millares and El Argar:
"...neolithic farming had begun near Almeria by the 5th millenium BC; the chief early site is El Garcel, where pottery suggests maritime connections with lands around the southeast Mediterranean, which would explain the appearance, even at this early stage, not only of wheat, but also of cultivated vines...from about the 4th millenium BC., copper slag is found in the settlements (Tres Cabezos, Campos, Parazuelos, La Gerundia, Tabernas, and Almizaraque). In the 3rd millienium BC, one settlement, at Los Milares, became outstandingly important...Beyond the extramural cemetery there was a line of forts, like those of the Tagus estuary. There is evidence that the Beaker Folk overran the Almerian sites as they did those of the Tagus estuary, towards the end of the 3rd millenium BC."

I would repeat my earlier post to you and please...do take your medication.

Erick

No one is accusing you of lying, nor insinuating that you are perpetuating a deception of any sort. I am merely stating that I started this particular line of discussion - this 'thread' - to exchange information, ideas and research material without having to deal with what I, personally, classify as nonsense and, as far as I am concerned, any discussion of "past-life experiences" is nonsense, because it is unable to be proven or disproven. This is my own opinion and I am certainly entitled to it. This does not mean that you are not welcome in this thread, however, it does mean that, if you choose to contribute to this thread, your contribution should be limited to that which is of a scientific nature. There are literally hundreds of threads within this forum in which a discussion regarding your "past-life experience" would be not only acceptable, but welcomed. This is not one of those threads.

PLEASE limit your contributions in this thread to topics that are of a scientific nature.

Now, in response to your claim that Atlantis was in the Azores, I must directly refute that claim due to the fact that the Azores are nothing more than the tips of volcanic mountains, the remainders of which fall over 3,000 meters into the oceanic abyss. Since ocean levels have never been shown to have risen more than 120 meters (even since the last Ice Age), then that would mean that in 10,000 BC the Azores would have been nothing more than volcanic mountains that were 120 meters higher above the ocean surface than they currently are. A little wider as well, perhaps, but they almost certainly did not join to form one large island, and they definitely did not become one large, continuous continent.

Sadly, it would appear that your former 'self' had a flawed memory. You do not, in fact, know where Atlantis is, which puts you in the same boat as everyone else in this forum. We all like to think we know where it could be, but until it is actually found, no one can lay claim to the knowledge.

Respectfully,

Erick