Please accept my apology; I was so focused on responding to the many, various points put forth by people, that I neglected to respond to your very kind comment re: me "doing a fine job in the first world" (i.e. sober science). I truly did mean to respond in kind and just kept forgetting to do so. I feel that you, too, have done an excellent job in putting forth arguments that support the views of sober science. Sometimes it is what is most needed in this forum. All too frequently people in this forum do tend to get carried away on the "visionary fairies" vehicle (to use your alliteration from an earlier post).

Respectfully,

Erick

Hera sent a gadfly to irritate the river goddess Io (daughter of river god Inachus, who is functionally equivalent to ancient mesopotamian river god Enki). At that time Io had the form of a cow. As a first attempt to avoid being stung by the gadfly, Io swam around the sea between southern Italy and western Greece; as a result, this sea became known as the Ionian sea.

Then Io travelled to the vicinity of Troy, where the straits of Bosphorous were named in her honor ("the ford of the ox").

Then Hera recalled her gadfly, and Io sought an audience with Prometheus (= "forethought") who predicted that Io should go to Egypt.

Then Io did go to Egypt, and became a Queen of Egypt. One of her sons was Libya. But she also had another son named Epapus, who became king of Egypt.

Found this.

------------------
Peace, Love, Light.

Those who know do not speak;
those who speak do not know.

In lak'ech - "You are another myself"

Seek not to change the world, but choose to change your mind about the world.

PS And by the way it's fake, a publicity stunt for a book.

------------------
Peace, Love, Light.

Those who know do not speak;
those who speak do not know.

In lak'ech - "You are another myself"

Seek not to change the world, but choose to change your mind about the world.

The special have enemies, for they are different and not the same.

Welcome. I usually buy all of my books so that I have them on-hand when I need them, but if I understand your situation correctly that may not be realistic for you right at this moment.

You can access the Greek-English Lexicon (LSJ, Middle Liddell, & Autenrieth Homeric Dictionary) by going to the Perseus-Tufts website. It is an excellent research tool for Greek and Latin material. You can access the word-lookup tool by using the following link.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform

When looking up a word you usually have to know the transliterated form (Greek word in Latin script). I don't think that accents are necessary, but don't quote me on that. If transliteration is a bit beyond you right now, what you could do is use the link to get into the Perseus website, then go to the home page. Once you are at the home page, you could bring up Plato's Timaeus or Critias (either in English OR in Greek). Each word should be highlighted in blue text in the Greek form, which means that it has a link to their online Liddell & Scott's Greek-English Lexicon.

If you are looking to use a hard copy of a Lexicon (either Greek or Latin), your local university library (main branch) is an excellent place to go. I would recommend checking out the main library at the University of Virginia. You don't have to be a student to use the library (usually), however, you won't be able to check out any books either. Most main branches of university libraries have copy machines available in the library, so you can copy the most important pages of your research material to take with you - so take lots of one dollar bills with you!

The Internet can be a great place to research as long as you use websites that are built, written, etc., by university professors, scientists, etc.. You should avoid any websites that make unsubstantiated claims if you are desirous of being taken seriously.

That should suffice to get you started for now. I hope this helps some. Anything else, let me know.

Respectfully,

Erick

I apologize, but I haven't had time to give your 'Io' question any thought. The Regional VP of Construction (824C) was here this week and we've all gone out to dinner with him every night (where I probably drank too much, as well). My aunt's 60th birthday suprise party is this weekend also and my mother has requested my presence, so I won't have much of a chance to give your question the proper consideration until probably next week sometime.

Again, I apologize.

Respectfully,

Erick

And that has exactly WHAT to do with Plato's Atlantis depiction???? :-)

Erick. Yeah that about sums it up. No $, No local Library worth 2ct. either. I'll probably check Longwood and Hampden-Sydney College libraries soon. UVA is a bit too far as well as UR, or VCU in current circumstances. I agree with you about the web sites for sure, although I tend to like the laughs I sometimes get reading the one that have their heads up their butts too. Every now and then one'll pop an idea that does make me think " how could this be possible and how probable? ".

Whats nonsense is this subject. I dont want to offend anyone but when people say how other people's ideas are dumb, that is really bad.

No one knows for actual fact if all of Plato's stories are true, cause of the time period of where science was just a new begining and religion was still at large.

Carlos Parada has a wonderful website about Greek mythology. He identifies "the flood" of Deucalion as taking place around 1450 BC. He also demonstrates (in a chronology page) that most of the regions of Greece had mythical genealogy reaching back to approximately this 1450 BC date.

For example, he shows that Athens was founded around 1450 BC.

Spain was interesting! Yes, I saw the steep rock of Gibraltar and found it very impressive. You can see the coast of Africa quite near! I can imagine that the old sailors thought that this must be a special place. And it is certainly a special place, between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic Ocean (the British knew it when they occupied this rock 300 years ago), a centre of sea traffic between the coasts of western and northern Europe, northern and western Africa and the whole Mediterranean. It is not astonishing that in the vicinity of this place the central city of a large empire could have been established.

The most impressing building I saw was the Dolmen of Menga in Antequera (36 km north of Malaga). It is constructed from 15 gigantic, vertical stone slabs, the biggest 3 x 4 x 1,5 meters, and covered by 5 horizontal slabs up to 7 x 8 m size, estimated weight more than 200 metric tons each. It is hard to understand how the old Megalith people could have transported those heavy loads. (I know something about loads; in our workshop we frequently handled steel plates of the size of a living room, 4 x 5 meters, and 80 mm thickness, with our mobile crane which could lift 12 tons. Those stone slabs had 16 times the weight of our heaviest steel plates!)

Some people associate Atlantis with the Megalith people, and this idea makes some sense for me.
In the countries inside the Mediterranean where Plato told that they were under the rule of the kings of Atlantis, you can find remnants of the Megalith culture, especially on the islands (Corsica, Sardinia, Malta), in Spain, France, but also in North Africa.
I read just recently about a stone circle in northern Morocco near the village Sidi Yamin, west of Jebala. It is named "Monzor" and consists of 173 basalt columns of the size of a man or higher, standing in a circle of 55 m diameter. This remains to similar stone circles in England.

>The area that I believe the city to have been located is the straight, elongated portion between >Casablanca and Essaouira in the center . The whole of the center of Morocco is a huge area of >plains called the Taza Depression. This depression is 'ringed' by the Rif, Middle Atlas, High Atlas, >and Anti-Atlas mountains.

Plato wrote in his "Critias" 112A, that the flood which destroyed the early city of Athens and also the Royal city of Atlantis, has been the third flood before the famous flood of Deucalion.

I wanted to call attention to something that is consistent among the chaos of various ancient versions of the Greek mythology. (But yet something which requires an encyclopedic knowledge of the myths to demonstrate.)

Many modern Atlantologists suggest that the Thera explosion around 1450 BC maked the end of Atlantis. But I was citing Carlos Parada's website to point out a radically different synchronism.

The so-called modern, or mythical, era for Greece seems to begin at roughly 1450 BC in most parts of Greece. Nearly all Greeks seem to have been devastated around 1450 BC, and then started over.

Moreover, the only mythical Greek genealogies which preserved a CONTINUOUS storyline both before and after 1450 BC are: a) descendents of Phoroneus, who lived in the Peloponnese peninsula around 1800 BC and "was the first man to worship Hera"; and b) descendents of Aegialeus who settled on (and thus blockaded) the isthmus of Corinth around 1900 BC, in the region which was later called Sicyon, where Poseidon remained the most important Greek god. For example, the Isthmian games (held at Corinth) were dedicated to Poseidon.

To help explain why the Peloponese region had more ancient traditions than the rest of Greece, there is a myth that Poseidon decided to drain a lake of Thessaly into the Aegean sea. This required moving a few mountains, and it caused the Thessalian "Flood" which carried Deucalion all the way across the Aegean Sea to Asia minor.

Thera's explosion was powerful i don't remember how many times biggers than Krakatoa's (and in a close sea)but i think that happened in 1650,after 300 years the were enough Greeks to start a war and kill each other (once again)in Trojan War.

Since we know that the Greeks had Indo-European language, myths and culture: it seems natural that a horse-and-chariot deity like Poseidon would arrive in the vicinity of Greece around 1900 BC, while travelling westward from approximately Armenia.

According to traditional Greek mythology, it was the wife of Poseidon who fled to the Atlas mountains (and/or to the Atlantic Ocean) to get away from Poseidon.

In the context of Indo-European cultures, the wife's westward migration completed the mission of the Armeno-Greek branch of Indo-Europeans (when she reached the ocean and could not travel any farther west).

You're welcome. Not visiting the "Pillars of Hercules" is one of the things I regret about my trip to Morocco in August of 2000; I only made it as far north as the ruins of Lixus. I think might know what "ring of stones" you mentioned. If they are the same ones I'm thinking of, then they are the ring of stones that surround the base of a tumulus (burial mound) that dates to around the time of the beginning of the common era. It is marked on one of Claudius Ptolemy's maps as "api rex tumulus", which translates literally as "bee king's tomb". It has been archaeologically excavated already. They bored a tunnel right into the center of it and found a central chamber with a skeleton and the such-like.

Please forgive me, but I must correct you on a statement you made in your second post dated from 4/29/03 (06:56). In that post you said:

quote:

---

Plato wrote in his "Critias" 112A, that the flood which destroyed the early city of Athens and also the Royal city of Atlantis, has been the third flood before the famous flood of Deucalion.

---

Not even in the prose version performed by the classically-trained academics does Plato say that the 3rd flood before the famous flood of Deucalion destroyed the Royal city of Atlantis; he only states that the aforementioned flood (extraordinary rainfall), accompanied by earthquakes, altered the size and shape of the acropolis in Athens and caused it to be bare of soil. Nothing more. To quote from R. G. Bury's translation:

quote:

---

In the first place, the acropolis, as it existed then, was different from what it is now. For as it is now, the action of a single night of extraordinary rain has crumbled it away and made it bare of soil, when earthquakes occurred simultaneously with the third of the disastrous floods which preceded the destructive deluge in the time of Deucalion. But in its former extent, at an earlier period, it went down towards the Eridanus and the Ilissus, and embraced within it the Pnyx, and had the Lycabettus as its boundary over against the Pnyx; and it was all rich in soil and, save for a small space, level on the top.

---

To help everyone to understand just exactly what Plato was talking about, I'll quote R. G. Bury's footnotes, as well.

quote:

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The Eridanus ran on the N., the Ilissus on the S. side of Athens. The Pnyx was a hill W. of the Acropolis; the Lycabettus a larger hill to the N.E. of the city.

---

Respectfully,

Erick

Please forgive me, but I wish to make a couple of comments regarding your 'timelines'. I have spent a considerable amount of time in the past researching the Greek geneologies and timelines, and I would like to share some of what my research has revealed to me.

When considering the length of time considered to be a "generation" most scholars assign to it a time frame of about 30 years. It is from this "30 years to a generation" figure that the time period of 1450 BC is derived for the time of Deucalion - by starting at the Trojan War (a known) and working backwards to the time of Deucalion to count up the number of generations (6 or 7), and multiplying the number of generations by the quantity of years in a generation (30 yrs.) This should give you a number of years equal to around 180-210 years; when this number is added to the period of the Trojan War (approx. 1230-1250 BC), you arrive at the time frame of approx. 1440-1460 BC. This is then "split down the middle" to arrive at 1450 BC. What many people fail to consider, however, is that people didn't just give birth to their children and die; many people DID live to the nice, ripe, old age of 50 or 60, and sometimes older. This means that parents and children (two generations) sometimes had an 'overlap' period of 20 or more years. It should also be taken into account that, back then, it was extremely common to have been married before your 20th birthday, and children were usually soon to follow. Additionally, many of the people mentioned in the 'myths' were contemporaries of each other. So then, taking all of this into account, you begin to notice that the 'timeline' begins to shrink a little, and the time of Deucalion is now possibly from between 1380-1450 BC.

In regards to Phoroneus, by putting together sheets of geneologies and comparing the geneologies against each other, I was able to put together a list of contemporaries. When examining that list of contemporaries you then find that Cranaus (3rd king of Attica) and Deucalion (1st king of Phthia) were contemporaries. Working back from that point, you then find that it is a mere two to three generations from the time of Deucalion to the time of Phoroneus - a mere 60 to 90 years. You also find that Phoroneus (founder of Argos) and Actaeus (1st king of Attica) were also contemporaries. This would place the foundation of Athens to between 1500-1550 BC. I am not sure, therefore, where you derive the rather ancient dates of 1800 & 1900 BC.? Modern archaeology has shown that the area around Athens has been continuously inhabited since before 3,000 BC, but this in no way reflects the foundation date of the actual city.

The explosion of the volcano on the island of Thera has been dated to the period of ca. 1450 BC., and that would certainly serve to explain the origin of the story of "the Destructive Deluge in the time of Deucalion".

Respectfully,

Erick

P.S. I'm sorry, but I still haven't had time to look into the 'Io' thing.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the first place, the acropolis, as it existed then, was different from what it is now. For as it is now, the action of a single night of extraordinary rain has crumbled it away and made it bare of soil,when earthquakes occurred simultaneously with the third of the disastrous floods which preceded the destructive deluge in the time of Deucalion.But in its former extent, at an earlier period, it went down towards the Eridanus and the Ilissus, and embraced within it the Pnyx, and had the Lycabettus as its boundary over against the Pnyx; and it was all rich in soil and, save for a small space, level on the top.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After rechecking that webpage, I see that the webpage locates Phoroneus at 1750 BC. And Aegaialeus 2 is depicted an additional 3 generations prior to Phoroneus (thus perhaps 1840 BC).

I hope this is a satisfactory explanation.

In regard to Io, I now tend to link her with the group which Egypt called Hyksos, which arrived and conqored the delta of Egypt around 1800 BC. (The Hyksos were driven out of Egypt at roughly 1575 BC.)

The myths about Hera persecuting Io seem to imply that Hera worship superceeded Io worship in Greece at roughly the time of Phoroneus (who introduced Hera worship, presumably near 1750 BC).

The Io myths claim that some early decendents of Io intermarried with Memphis (the capital of Egypt in ancient times). So it seems reasonable to link them to the Hyksos. By contrast, the invasion of Egypt by the Sea Peoples was a relatively transient event, probably confined to the 1220-1175 BC reigns of Mernepthah and Ramses III.

But after those Sea Peoples had been defeated in Egypt, Greek mythology could be covering their subsequent activity as the "Return of the Heraclides", who claimed to be (returning) descendents of Io when the the Heraclides conquored the Peloponesion peninsula shortly after the Trojan War.

However, let me respectfully point out a comment from the "Heraclides" page on the Carlos Parada mythology website.

"The Heraclides attacked the Peloponesus and captured all its cities. It took three generations to achieve this conquest."

Moreover, another page on that website contains the following statement: "The Heraclides were descendents of Io. This house evolved first in northwest Africa and the mideast (Phoenicia)."

I will repeat here what I wrote in my earlier thread "The Sea Peoples .." :

Dating of Greek history before Theseus can be done from the so called “Parian Marble”.
According to this „Marmor Parium“, Cecrops became king of Athens in 1582 BC, and in 1574 BC Deucalion became
king of Lycoreia near the Parnassus Mountains.
In 1529 BC the great flood in the time of Deucalion took place , and Deucalion had to flee the waters from Lycoreia to
Athens.
That means, that this special flood of Deucalion did NOT destroy Athens as well.

Phoroneus, the “first man” according to Solon, lived between 1800 and 1750 BC
When Solon told to the Egyptian priest about Phoroneus, Deucalion and Pyrrha, the priest answered him: “O Solon,
Solon, you Greeks are always children !“.(Tim 22B) and:
“Certainly the genealogies which you related just now, Solon, concerning the people of your country, are little better
than children´s tales, for, in the first place, you remember but one deluge, though many had occured previously; and next, you are ignorant of the fact that the noblest and most perfect race amongst men was born in the land where you now dwell, and from them both you yourself are sprung and the whole of your existing city, out of some little seed that chanced to be left over . .(Tim 23B, transl. Bury).

The real old story (compared with Solon´s “children´s tales”), which the priest now narrated to Solon, was that of the
war between the early Athenians and the Atlanteans. And from this very important quote, the starting point of the whole Timaios and Critias stories, it is very obvious for me that the time of Phoroneus, Cecrops and Deucalion must
have been much later than the time of the Atlantean war!

Therefore I cannot agree with the dating of the Atlantean war and the destruction of Atlantis into the time of the “Sea
Peoples War”, about 1200 BC.

The early Athenians and the Atlanteans were living in a past, of which Solon knew nothing! But Cecrops and Phoroneus who lived 1012 or 1230 years befor his time, were known by Solon, and he told about their story to the Egyptian priest ! In any case, also the Sea Peoples War must have been known to Solon, if Athens had played such
an important role in it as the Egyptian priest told ! It took place only 630 years before his time; Solon was one of the
best educated men in Greece and must have known a lot about this event !

The early city of Athens,(that was the Athens which was not yet made "bare of soil", where men and women had equal rights and both served as warriors), was destroyed in an enormous flooding. Deucalion´s flood did not destroy Athens, but three floods earlier it had been devastated completely, and “the whole body of its warriors was swallowed up by the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner was swallowed up by the sea and vanished.” (Tim.25D).

In Plato´s narration one cannot find a date for this event, but from the above mentioned considerations it must have been much earlier than in the time of the invasion of Egypt by the “Sea Peoples” !!

One quick question. In this and other cases, could the tem "first man" be a reference to leadership that is being misconstrued? I mean the "first man or woman" of a society or group is the leader, i.e. chief, president, king, queen etc. so could this at least in some instances be the case?

"And on one occasion, when he wished to draw them on to discourse on ancient history, he attempted to tell them the most ancient of our traditions, concerning Phoroneus, who was said to be the first man, and Niobe; and he went on to tell the legend about Deucalion and Pyrrha after the flood, and how they survived it, and to give the genealogy of their descendants; and by recounting the number of years occupied by the events mentioned he tried to calculate the period of time. Whereupon one of the priests, a prodigiously old man, said: o Solon, Solon, you Greeks are always children: there is not such a thing than an old Greek! " (transl. Bury)

quote:

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Dating of Greek history before Theseus can be done from the so called “Parian Marble”.

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Yes, Ulf, it probably could be done, but I am nowhere near being convinced that it should be done from the Marmor Parium and the Marmor Parium alone, seeing as how it is believed (by most scholars that have studied it) to have been compiled in 264/3 BC. Should we really accept this single piece of work as the "official authoratative source" for the pre-Theseus chronological timeline ? I don't believe so, and the following quote may help to explain why.

quote:

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Our current distinction between the "mythical" and the "historical" would make little sense to the Greeks, who would look for other means of distinguishing between the mythical or unreal and the historical or real. Obviously, the fact that the Greeks (before the 4th Century B.C.) had not developed a common view in this regard leads different ancient writers to accept or reject particular accounts according to different criteria: usefulness, pedagogical value, even piety. Curiously, the main criterion does not seem to be how close they are to the "truth". C.'s faultless analysis, following the line of research represented by authors such as Vernant, Vidal-Naquet or Detienne,2 manages to convince us that what for us is myth was for the Greeks nothing but the telling of "les événements constitutifs du passé de sa propre culture; mieux, de sa propre cité" (p. 39), for which reason its elimination would have been unthinkable. And C. observes the integration of that past into the continuous account of events, both in texts which epigraphy makes available such as Marmor Parium (he could have added the Chronicum Lindium) and in historical works such those of Acusilaus or Pherecides, as well as those of Herodotus or Thucydides. The overwhelming impression left after reading these pages is that we are looking at different conceptual frameworks. It is to get out of this dead-end that C. suggests a semio-narrative reading of myth in which its construction and functioning are considered as important as its recitation and its acting.

---

Source: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/1997/97.02.25.html

Have you ever heard of the Chronicum Lindium? If not, here is a link to a site that gives you all the info on a book written about it.

http://www.arespublishers.com/GREEK&LATININSCRIPTIONS.htm

Additionally, here is what the Oxford Illustrated History of Greece and the Hellenistic World [(Oxford University Press, 2001) ISBN 0-19-285438-0] has to say about the chronological dating of the Greek Pre-History Period in the Tables of Events listed in the back of the book.

quote:

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The Age of Palace Cultures

3000 BC Beginnings of Minoan culture in Crete

2200-1450 BC Middle Minoan palace culture in Crete

2100 BC Probable arrival of Mycenaean Greeks in Greece

1600-1200 BC Development of a Mycenaean palace culture in Greece, initially dependent on Cretan models.

1450 BC Mycenaeans take over the Cretan palace settlements and dominate the Aegean area; palace settlements develop at Mycenae, Tiryns, Thebes, Pylos, Cnossus, and elsewhere; this culture is the historical reality behind the Greek heroic myths.

The Dark Age and the Period of Migrations

Between 1250 BC and 1150 BC there was a breakdown of settled conditions in the eastern Mediterranean and Asia Minor.

1220 BC The destruction of Troy VIIa may be the historical event behind the legend of the Trojan War, and perhaps the last major enterprise of the Mycenaean Greeks.

1200 BC Widespread destruction of Mycenaean sites in Greece.

1184 BC Traditional date for the destruction of Troy worked out by later Greek writers.

1150 BC Final destruction of the citadel of Mycenae.

1100-1000 BC Invasion of the Dorian Greeks into mainland Greece (in myth 'the return of the sons of Heracles') usually placed in this period.

1050-950 BC Migration of Ionian and other Greeks from the mainland to the Aegean islands and the coast of Asia Minor.

1050 BC Beginnings of widespread use of iron in Greece, and the renewal of contacts with Cyprus.

1050-900 BC Proto-geometric pottery.

975 BC Hero's tomb at Lefkandi.

---

Additionally, in the Introduction it says:

quote:

---

Who were the Greeks? Their ancestors, like those of the Romans, belonged to the great Indo-European family of peoples, which spread in the course of many centuries from an original home somewhere near the Caucasus into India, Iran, and Europe. They began to enter Greece from the north about 1900 BC.

---

and...

quote:

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The Bronze Age Mycenaean culture was the setting of the myths, whose importance for classical Greece cannot be exaggerated. In the dark age which followed it's fall, the complex inheritance from the earlier centuries was digested and organized. At its end the pantheon is virtually complete, and religion has taken its lasting form; contact with the East is restored; and the polis, the independent city-state, is settling into its classic shape.

---

Respectfully,

Erick

------------------
"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."

In my metaphrastic translation it says:

quote:

---

22
A And at some time to bring up [Athena] with the purpose of about her of ancient times to discuss, of here of ancient times to undertake to speak of, about Phoroneus and Niobe and the first [or foremost] counted, and with of an inundation about Deucalion and Pyrrha as to come to be a mythic tale, and any from the same genealogy, and of as far as of the period of years was where an elegy made an attempt to mention any dates to account for;

Metaphrastic Translation by E. W. Wright

---

My transaltion is derived from the presence of the word "lechthentos", which the complete L & S Greek-English Lexicon defines as "to count" or "to reckon". Are you really asking us all to believe that the Greeks of the Classical Age had somehow managed to keep a memory of the first Mycenaean Greek to enter into Greece from the north ca. 1900 BC? If you are asking us to accept the chronology of the Marmor Parium as the 'gospel' truth, then that is exactly what you are doing.

In your post from "The Sea Peoples..." you wrote:

quote:

---

Phoroneus, the “first man” according to Solon, lived between 1800 and 1750 BC
When Solon told to the Egyptian priest about Phoroneus, Deucalion and Pyrrha, the priest answered him: “O Solon,
Solon, you Greeks are always children !“.(Tim 22B) and:
“Certainly the genealogies which you related just now, Solon, concerning the people of your country, are little better
than children´s tales, for, in the first place, you remember but one deluge, though many had occured previously; and next, you are ignorant of the fact that the noblest and most perfect race amongst men was born in the land where you now dwell, and from them both you yourself are sprung and the whole of your existing city, out of some little seed that chanced to be left over . .(Tim 23B, transl. Bury).

---

I wonder, then, who you think the Egyptian priest was referring to when he spoke of the "noblest and most perfect race amongst men" that was "born in the land" where Solon dwelt, and from whom Solon and the whole of his existing city were "sprung...out of some little seed that chanced to be left over"? Who, then, if not the Mycenaean culture?

I keep seeing this insistence from you that the 3rd flood before the Flood of Deucalion - the flood that altered the shape and size of the Acropolis - is the very same flood that destroyed Atlantis. How, exactly, do you arrive at this conclusion, other than by combining two separate quotes from two separate books (i.e. Timaeus 25D & Critias 112A)? Plato never stated that the two were one in the same. In fact, he is careful not to mix the descriptions of the two cities with the events that unfolded, and keeps them very much distinct and separate.

You continuously point to Plato's mention of Phoroneus, Niobe, and Deucalion as evidence of a far more ancient date for the destruction of Atlantis, but Plato quite clearly has the priest telling Solon that the genealogies Solon related were nothing more than "children's tales" (i.e. fairy tales), and he goes on to list the reasons why. Of those reasons that he lists, amongst them is the fact that they only remember one deluge, when clearly more than one deluge has occurred. Also mentioned is the fact that they are ignorant of whom it is they are descended from. The latter reason is actually supported by the Archaic & Classical Greeks' belief that the city of Mycenae was built by 'giants'. Clearly, the priest is pointing out the fact that the Greeks are like children because, like children, they have not bothered to keep and preserve any kind of historical record - except for their very recent history. Quite frankly, I would have to agree with the Egyptian priest! The Greeks were a little offended by this view, as is evidenced by Plato's statement in the Timaeus 21E:

quote:

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21
E Moreover whither Solon was said to travel exceedingly and close origins together to honor, and moreover of the former to inquire into [because] ever some about this above all of the priests to be acquainted with [but] neither him nor any other Hellene to keep anything at all, as practically to say, about of to be disposed such as he discovered.

Metaphrastic Translation by E. W. Wright

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Or, if you prefer, I can quote R. G. Bury:

quote:

---

And Solon said that when he traveled there he was held in great esteem amongst them; moreover, when he was questioning such of their priests as were most versed in ancient lore about their early history, he discovered that neither he himself nor any other Greek knew anything at all, one might say, about such matters.

---

I think, therefore, that it can quite safely be said that the mention of Phoroneus, Niobe, and/or Deucalion, by Plato, does not in any way reflect upon the time period or date of the destruction of Atlantis. Any connection, therefore, of these very separate and distinct events to the destruction of Atlantis is erroneous.

Phoroneus, Niobe, & Deucalion are "red herrings" that lead people away from the heart of the matter (as are Theseus, Erichthonius, Erysichthon, and Cecrops). My suggestion would be to ignore those names and concentrate on the core story and the descriptions of the location of Alantis. Try not to allow yourself to be distracted by them.

Sincerely & Respectfully,

Erick

Yes, the designation of "Indo-European" is drawn, in some part, from an examination of languages, but it is also arrived at through the examination of archaeological remains, pottery styles, burial practices, weaponry, architectural styles etc.. Indo-European is a very 'loose' categorization that covers a wide range of people that had similarities in a number of categories.

Respectfully,

Erick

I thought that this might also be of interest to you.

quote:

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Chronicum Parium (Das Marmor Parium). Herausgegeben und erklart von Felix Jacoby.

Greek historical chronology has as one of its main sources a very famous text which has survived on an inscribed marble stele known to us as Marmor Parium.

Two fragments of this stele survive. One of which brought from Smyrna to London in 1627 is now preserved in the Ashmolean Museum Oxford (save the upper part which perished during the Civil War). The other, discovered at Paros in 1897, is now in the Museum there.

The compiler of the inscription, whose name is lost, claims to have "written up the dates from the beginning, derived from all kinds of records and general histories, starting from Cecrops, the first king of Athens, down to the archonship of Astyanax [?] at Paros and Diognetus at Athens," i.e. 264/3 B.C. ISBN 0-89005-362-2. xviii + 219pp Pb. $20.00

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Source: http://www.arespublishers.com/GREEK&LATININSCRIPTIONS.htm

Respectfully,

Erick

This was the raw material which Solon and the priest of Egypt were adapting.

Hesiod's version says that Atlas had 3 daughters (i.e. the Hesperides) who lived at the west end of Africa. Their land grew golden apples (and/or golden sheep). The deity Gaia had planted those apple trees in a garden, which was tended by Atlas. A dragon guarded the apples. (However, when Heracles visited the region, he tricked Atlas into killing the protective dragon). The metal apples were given to Hera as a wedding present when she married Zeus. Then the metal apples were given to Athena, who recognized that it was forbidden to retain the apples. So Athena returned the golden apples to the Hesperides. Eventually Atlas had to build walls around his garden, to keep out strangers.

9) From when [the first fifty-oared] ship [ prepared by Danaus] sailed from Egypt to Greece and was called a penteconter, and the daughters of Danaus, _____ and _____ and Helike and Archedike, chosen by lot by the rest, [founded the temple of Lindian Athene] and made offerings on the headland ____ in Lindos in Rhodes, 1247 years, [when Erichthonios] was king [of Athens].

>> [founded the temple of Lindian Athene] <<