posted 06-29-2003 05:00         

Orov,Oros,Oro(Greek)...A Mountain
har,Harar(Hebrew)......A "

posted 06-29-2003 18:44         

Oh, Oscar. You've finally managed to "out" yourself to everyone - not that I wasn't already aware of what you are. Despite what you claim to know, your very own words proclaim your ignorance.

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The fact you quote a site it doesn't make you a daddy or a linguist, less of all languages of my country!

The words written are not yours, you just glued something about the probably families of the language, not the particularities of that language. So in that sense you have said absolutely nothing against the argument the word ATL and ANTIS or QORICALLQUE had to deal with the issue we're talking about.

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The fact that - after having read all of what I posted (if you actually did) - you still do not understand why the Quechumaran and Nahuatl languages have nothing to do with Plato's Atlantis, tells me that you know absolutely nothing about linguistics (mind you, it is not necessary to be a linguist in order to have a general knowledge of linguistics). If you had read what I posted you would understand that the Greek "oreichalcos" and the Quechuan "Qoricallque" (or Quichean or whatever the hell it is) have absolutely no similarity other than by chance BECAUSE they come from completely different Language Families! If the two languages had shared a common ancestry, that is to say if both languages - Greek and Quechuan - had originally come from the same "parent language", then they would be listed in the Linguistic hierarchy as being from the same "Family" of languages. Any similarity between words is therefore nothing more than coincidental. The word "oreichalcos" is a Greek word that means "copper that is of, or belonging to, the mountains". What was the word that the Atlanteans used to say the same thing? Nobody knows! But it sure as hell didn't come from a civilization that existed across the Atlantic Ocean. You seem to forget that the diseases the Europeans brought with them from the Old World decimated the native populations. Had there been contact with the Old World prior to the arrival of the Spaniards, then those diseases would not have had the devastating effect that they did. ESPECIALLY if that contact had occured as far back in the past as you suggest; their populations would have had time to develop the necessary anti-bodies and pass it along to their descendants. This is a nearly insurmountable obstacle for the Pre-Columbian or Pre-Viking theorists (like yourself) to overcome.

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My reference to Vasco is not a mistake, it's just a way to make a reference to Basque in Spanish as it is known in Spain, that's why you can't recognize cos you don't know and are capable to read just English sites.We can use the variation of V or B for reasons I don't care to explain.

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O.K. So, I am an English-speaking person, you used a Spanish reference to the word Basque, and I didn't recognize it. Am I supposed to be "shamed" by this?

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Mistake is yours when you mention Oltec civilization. Is not Oltec at all. It's real name is Olmec with M not T.

I mispelled the name of Egyptian godess NEITH

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Apparently the mis-spelling of words is a trait that is not just limited to us "arrogant Americans". eh, Oscar? In fact, you mis-spelled several words in your most recent postings, like "Mohenho Daro" (Mohenjo Daro), Etruarians (Etrurian), otghers (others), ortodoxism (orthodoxism), etc., etc., etc.. You might have noticed, however, that the word OLMEC was directly underneath the word Oltec, a mis-spelling that was most likely derived from the viewing of too many words with the suffix "tec", such as Aztec, Mixtec, Zapotec, etc..

Incidentally, it has not gone without notice that your arguments seem to be composed mostly of derogatory remarks, name-calling, and insults. For instance:

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arrogant idiot like Erick

Mr. Erick is so stupid

dummy!

You just don't have enough culture to have an inteligent dialogue.

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This is the type of behavior that is indicative of either an adolescent (i.e. someone without maturity) or someone who knows that their arguments have no merit. Which of these are you, Oscar?

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You failed to mention rongorongo inscriptions are IDENTICAL to the ones in Mohenho Daro in the other side of the planet.

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You have either been very badly informed or you are actively and deliberately seeking to mislead the members of this forum. The Rongorongo inscriptions are absolutely NOT identical to the writing system in Mohenjo Daro (i.e. the Indus Valley Script); the only trait that these two writing systems share is that they are both undeciphered writing systems. Rongorongo was developed on Rapanui island (late in the development of their civilization, I might add), and there it remained (the Isla de Pascua) until its discovery in the 19th century.

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So I would believe them rather than you who doesn't even know the difference between coca and cocaine

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I find it odd that you won't let this one go, especially because you are wrong! What was found in the mummies was traces of the chemical Tetrahydrocannibalis (THC). It is the main, active, ingredient in both cocaine and hashish that gives them both their halucinogenic properties. But hey, don't trust me! Why not read it for yourself in the very link that you provided in one of your own postings! http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/Entomology/courses/en570/papers_2000/wells.html

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Adding to that I must say it's just another dogma appearing in books the idea of Inca civilization appearing in 12th Century and collapsing 300 years after.There's no way to measure the events on time in monuments made of stone both in Peru and Bolivia.

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First of all, nobody said that the Inca Empire only lasted for 300 years; what has been said is that the Inca Empire was at its height during those 300 years. Additionally, you are correct - you cannot measure time on monuments made of stone - unless of course the monuments themselves record the dates for you, but you would still want to study the stratigraphy of the entire area surrounding the monument - which is exactly what archaeologists and historians have done. The stratigraphical analysis has left little room for doubt.

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In fact, the author Natalia Tarifi, descent form Etruarians acknowledges smething very important regarding those ropes with knots:
It's the case of the Quechua ROOT "IM" or IN like in simpay meaning to weave, t make knots like the Egyptian goddess NeItha and the creator MINu represented with ropes and the king MINOs in Crete. MINotaurus was the TORUS or bull, but in Latin language TORUS was a rope with knots like quipus of the incas. MINOs the king had the knots of adMINistration and ecoNoMY.We think words like adMINistration, MINister, SYMpathy come from Latin source but that linguist explain it's wrong cos that source already existed in America before (Etrurians Came from America by Natalia Rosi de Tariffi).

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Is this a quote from her book, and if not, why are you so adverse to listing quotes in your postings?

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I don't want to BELIEVE Mr. Erick is so stupid he just quoted exactly a site about FLAGS to my reference to Etrurian language.

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Have you completely lost your sense of humor, Oscar? Of course I know about the Etrurian language - although, here in America, and outside of Academia, it is more commonly referred to as the Etruscan language, or the language of the Etruscans. A good website that discusses the archaeological finds, a compilation of the Etruscan/Etrurian phrases that we now know of due to those finds, and an attempt at their translation, is: http://www.paisano.it/my/kanto.html

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Nahash means snake in Hebrew, yet nehoshet is also copper and hidden meaning of snake is "the one who knows the secret of the copper". Mr. Erick wouldn't know, for example, the Mayas used the word NACHÁN meaning "place of snakes". It would be considered as simple rarity or coincidence. Moses himself did a snake made of copper which eventually was transfomed in idol called Noestá. Numbers 21:6-9; John 3:14 (Jesus compared that ADN cross -snake and stake- like his own torture giving LIFE), 2 Kings 18:4.

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Are you actually quoting Bible verses now, Oscar? So, the hidden meaning of snake is "the one who knows the secret of copper", eh? And how, pray thee do tell, would you ever know this if it is so hidden? Are you the purveyor of secret, hidden, knowledge now? Truly, cut it out...my sides are starting to hurt! Um, a correction seems to be in order here - the snake was brass, not copper, and the later reference to this event in John 3:14 (only by looking up to Christ on the cross can you be "saved") had absolutely nothing to do with deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA by the way, not ADN). So let me see if I've got this straight - you believe that, when the Israelites were wandering in the desert, and when one of them was bitten by a snake, by looking upon a double-helix strand of DNA that Moses had somehow mounted on a staff (not that they would have been able to see it), their life was spared? I think that you might want to lay off the Cuervo, Oscar.

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Don't get me wrong, but the whole reason of the orichalcum was for reasons beyond our understanding. If even Tesla Coils using copper can create A VIOLET DOUBLE DNA SNAKE OF LIGHT in a pyramid...: [URL=http://www.keelynet.com/unclass/hardy1.htm]www.keelynet.com/unclass/hardy1.htm</A>
...imagine what an specific alloy could eventually do in determined circumstances! Do you know copper 62 is used for emission of antiparticles? Why? Maybe to go beyond some men have already gone before, the anti-universe or even some place in Orion or Mars.Yet, technology used by ancient ones in Bolivia, in Peru , in Mexico, in Egypt, etc, seemed to be forgotten by those who practiced it.Tell me whyyyy, I,I,I,I...I,I?
Because men need something more than techno-knowledge.

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O.K., you see, this is where you really "outed" yourself and showed your true colors. I've suspected it for quite some time now, but was unable to pinpoint any specific posting...until now.

You're a New Ager!

Try again.

Erick

------------------
"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."

[This message has been edited by Erick Wright (edited 06-29-2003).]

posted 06-30-2003 11:48         

Mr Erickson; Do you have a post to describe your conclusions other than fill your bank account. So tell me if someone were to take ancient rocks and carve statues would they be able to tell that they were fakes?

One thing certain is that evidence from different cultures can be found all over the world,which was established through trade and voyages. This is also ascertained by scientists refering to teuctonic plate movements whereas some countries were closer together in ancient times.

posted 06-30-2003 17:58         

The biblical root word for copper (i.e. "nechosheth") is shared cognately between Hebrew and Arabic languages (but probably NOT shared with any other modern languages). This suggests that there should have been an extremely ancient source of "copper" which was shared by the Hebrews, Egyptians, and Arabs.

Deuteronomy 8:9 states that the Iraelites were to travel out of Egypt and go to a promised land "out of whose hills you can dig copper". This does, perhaps, sound like a reference to mountain copper.

The Israelites then left Egypt and followed the inland route, known as the kings highway, which lead to the Timnah copper mining region, and then led farther north to "Khirbit Hamra Ifdan", the largest factory for smelting copper in the ancient world (i.e. it had 70 rooms).

The copper manufacturing plant was destroyed by an earthquake around 2700 BC, when Egyptian pyramid building was at its peak. But archeologists reported in 2002 that the ancient copper factory has been excavated recently. Here is a link about that copper factory: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/06/0620_020625_metalfactory.html

The Timna valley is semi-circular, like Atlantis, but with a radius of roughly 40 stades. On the north, west, and south, the Timnah valley is bordered by cliffs 900 feet high. And copper comes to the surface in those cliffs. In ancient times it was possible to pick up nodules that were 55% copper in the foothills of those cliffs. The nodules were in the form of malachite, which is a green-colored ore of copper. People have mined copper ore at Timnah since 5500 BC. Here is a link which explains the Timnah valley and its copper ore: www.us-israel.org/jsource/Archaeology/timna.html

Metalurgists believe that these soft, crumbly, nodules of malachite ore were the first copper ore to be used in Egypt. Initially, the ore was ground into powder, to create green eyeshadow (i.e. cosmetics). And then supplementarily, people discovered how to extract pure copper, by heating malachite in a charcoal fire. Here is a link which explains this eyeshadow issue, as part of a history of metalurgy: http://loki.stockton.edu/~epsteinc/metallur.htm

posted 07-01-2003 01:21         

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Around 1602, Vincenzo Casciorola of Bologna, discovered a translucent mineral in fields near Monte Paterna, some 4 miles from Bologna, which when calcined acquired the property of glowing in the dark after exposure to sunlight. Casciorola originally called it the 'lapis solaris' as it appeared to store the light of the Sun. An account was later published by Fortunio Liceti Litheosphorus, sive de lapide Bononiensi lucem, Utino,1640.
This substance appears to be barium sulphide. It was made phosphorescent by being powdered very finely, calcined, then mixed with water or white of egg and fashioned into small tablets, which were again calcined at a high temperature in a furnace using bellows. It then was capable of phosphorescing after being exposed to sunlight. It was called the 'lapis illuminabilis' and attracted the interest of Athanasius Kircher.
There were various kinds of this stone, some glowed like the embers of a fire, others with the characteristic blue flame of burning sulphur.
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/bologna.html

posted 07-05-2003 13:21         

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the fact is the linguists don't have a consensus about language families in all cases, specially the ones I quoted. You admit yourself rongorongo has not been desiphered, how on Earth then we may believe the experts can tell us the "family". The ethnologists and linguist are still discussing the source and you want us to believe they already know the families!

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Truly, Oscar, you really do need to pick up a book and do a little reading about linguistics, in general. The Rongorongo script has not been deciphered, but that does not mean that linguists know nothing about it. For instance, they know that it was created on the Isla de Pascua (Rapanui Island) by the indigenous population, and that it was created late in the development of their civilization. The Rapanui dialect belongs to the Oceanic Group in the Austric Family of languages. It is the exact relationship of symbol/letter or group of symbols/word that remains, as of yet, undeciphered.

The same goes for the Indus Valley Script; it is known that the Indus language, as well as several others, was written with the Indus Valley Script. The Indus language is now believed to have been an early member of the Dravidian Family of languages. The Dravidian languages are well known and well studied, and four of the languages of which the Family is comprised are still spoken in southern India today - Kannada, Malayalam, Tamil, and Telugu. Again, it is the exact relationship of symbol/letter or group of symbols/word that has remained undeciphered.

The Basque language belongs to the Aquitanian/Basque family of languages, of which it is the only member.

Etruscan (Etrurian) is an extinct language. It is its own Language Family and has within itself three, distinct, dialects - Lemnian, Lydian, and Rhaetian.

The simple fact that two different languages might have one or two CHARACTERS in their scripts that appear similar does not mean that the SCRIPTS are identical.

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My transliteration of Mojenjo Daro with J is not wrong, I'm using J on purpose cos the name is not English and the same thing happens with Protestants using the name Jehovah while sefardits in Spain use Yahveh. So I have good reasons to use J rather than H in specific names.

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Uh, not to argue the petty particulars Oscar, but you used the spelling with H, rather than J. I was the one who used a J in the spelling when I corrected you.

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You don't have to be ashamed of not knowing Basque or Vasco, just gotta be informed before trying to argue!!!!

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I'm a little confused on this point, Oscar. Just what exactly do you think that I argued on this point? I merely pointed out that I had never heard of, nor could I find any reference to (not that I looked very hard), the word Vasco as pertains to the Basque language.

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My saying about cocaine is cos people usually think about modern cocaine and confuse this with coca leaves. The site specifically says cocaine came from Erythroxylon Coca.

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I know of no other plant from which cocaine can be derived. This whole stupid argument regarding coca/cocaine started with you saying, and I quote, "Is Dr. Hawass or Lehner or any other egyptologist examining THE CAUSES of the presence of nicotine and coca (not cocaine as you wrote)in the Egyptian mummies?" And yet I was correct when I wrote "cocaine" for that is how it is referred to in every website, article, and book that discusses the topic. To be fair, however, you also are correct when you say that cocaine is derived from the plant Erythroxylon Coca (btw, something that is written in the website that I listed). So, let us both put this particular topic to rest by agreeing that traces of Tetrahydrocannabalis (THC), the chemical that is present in cocaine and hashish that gives them their hallucinogenic property, and that is derived from plants belonging to the Cannabus Genus, as well as from the plant Erythroxylon Coca, has been found in Egyptian mummies belonging to the Middle Dynastic Period. Agreed?

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Good thing after your mistake about Etruria in a site quoting flags and Napoleon (!)NOW you can say "of course I knew it" having a little time to do homework.Thanks of my response. You're welcome! Now you know better and found a better site, how convenient!

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Um, if you hadn't noticed quite yet, my responses as of lately have been coming only on weekends. This is because of the hectic schedule I have during the week, and also because of the fact that I have been building an addition to my mother and father's deck. Additionally, the person put in charge of the store expansion (conversion of external merchandise pick-up area into internal stockroom space) was "let go" due to corporate cutbacks. This has resulted in the "expansion" of my own responsibilities. As a result, I no longer have the time to devote to responding to your numerous and lengthy posts, as well as everyone else's posts, which have been neglected in favor of arguing your points. Unfortunately, this has resulted in unscientific theories - most of which are completely unrelated to the topic of oreichalcos - to creep in. I hate that I have to be the "watch dog" as someone put it. I would much rather spend my time discussing viable scientific theories, but I just don't have time enough to do it all.

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Snake was made of copper. The copper itself eventually could be used to make bronze. If I know some things or not I let the readers to judge.

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I don't know what type of Bible you are reading, but the King James version of the Bible says, quite explicitly, that the metal was BRASS.

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You are the one discussing Atlantis and acuse ME to be a New Ager?

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I am discussing the scientific and/or academic aspects of the story. I do not subscribe to, practice, nor endorse, the sort of wild derivative speculation that you yourself practice.

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The fact a determine site provides the information doesn't eliminate the fact of the experiment using copper (not bronze)in Tesla Coils.So, the DNA type of violet light is there whether you like the site or hate it to death.
My mention about Jesus providing life is based upon the Gospels themselves. He died to give life according to the Bible. You can believe or reject, it's up to you. People who were bitten by snakes need to have faith and stare at the copper snake in order to....LIVE. The twisted snake whether in Sculapius or Assyrian trees were a symbol of life, medicine, regeneration and it can well be applied to laws in nature. These are archetypes.Genesis indicates cos a snake the average of life decreased, so we are talking about LIFE and DNA. In fact Genesis is a word meaning "origin" and the first chapters talk about a blessed "seed" and the cursed one, so we are talking about lineage and offspring which eventually lead to Christ. Then again we're talking about DNA or life. Shamans can perceive this and the fact you are not aware of this doesn't deny symbols.It would require a special theme debating on this.

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Regarding all of this nonsense about DNA and the Israelites, the picture of the experiment conducted at the University of Wyoming merely shows a release of energy that has a double-helixal shape. The pyramid is made of copper - a conductive material - and focused through a crystal. It is most likely the internal structure of the crystal that allowed for the double-helix shape. The Bible, however, does not mention any pyramids, crystals, tesla coils, nor energy of any kind. It merely states that he made an effigy of a snake and mounted it on a post. Do you ever really read things, or do you just have trouble understanding the things that you read that are written in the English language?

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Your argument about previous coming of people causing diseases is controversial.Cos you're suggesting something we don't know. Europeans were filthy but Egyptians, Hebrews or Phoenicians who probably came to America had other habits protecting their health. The use of water to "purify" is an example while Europeans took a bath once a year and was considered unhealthy.So there are anti-arguments for everything you post.

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Perhaps you should spend a little time studying bacteriology, Old World diseases, and the sorts of diseases that decimated the native American populations, and then re-address this issue.

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The exact scripture both rongorongo and that of Indo Valley are the ones of this site. Read the followings to inform yourself better. I can go like this forever, be my guest: www.netaxs.com/~trance/fisher.html

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Oscar, as I have said before, if you actually read this site you'll see that what is said is that the only similarity between the two languages is that they are both undeciphered. What it states, exactly, is:

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Like the Indus Valley script of Mohenjo Daro and Harappa of approximately 2000 BC, or the Etruscan writing of central and northern Italy of the first millennium BC, rongorongo has also been, until very recently , one of the world's very few undeciphered writing systems.

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My true colors are simple to verify: Don't reject anything, use knowledge of everything and common sense.

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This is probably your biggest problem and the problem of a great number of people on this website. Specifically, that they (and you) don't reject anything as being irrelevant. The inability of many people to critically evaluate information allows for everything and anything to have relevance in their minds. This is just not so in the real world and especially in the scientific world. Most of the people that have developed their critical evaluative skills, through logic and reason are able to discern the information that has relevance to the Atlantis topic. A great many people in this forum, however, have not ever developed their critical evaluative skills. This is the reason that topics like pyramids, crystals, energy, DNA, etc., are brought to the table for dicussion.

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Your true colors are: reject as absurd everything you fail to investigate deeper or have prejuidice before acknowledging and checking.

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You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however erroneous it might be.

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Something to add regarding Mohenjo Daro or rongorongo?

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Already added it earlier in my post.

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Something to add regarding your fabulous knowledge about quechua and nahuatl or quiche which admitedly you say you don't know and don't care? And yet you wanna insist about the meaning of qoricollque? How come? How you dare if you just ignore and talk about Greek?

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Again, already added it earlier in my post.

You really just don't get it, do you? Unless a conclusive determination can be made regarding the presence of the Atlantis story in some other language, then the sole source of the Atlantis story is Plato's Timaeus & Critias. These two books were written by a Greek man in the Attic Greek dialect. The word oreichalcos is a Greek word. The English translation of that Greek, compound word is "mountain copper". Plato does state that the Atlantis story was brought back to Greece, from Egypt, by Solon. Therefore, if any other language were to be examined, it would have to be Egyptian, not Quechuan, Aymaran, or Nahuatl. It really is just that simple.

I have never argued the meaning of "qoricollque". What I have argued is the relevance of the word to the Atlantis story. Due to the fact that it has no relevance to the Atlantis story, I have dismissed it as exactly that - IRRELEVANT. Again, it is just that simple.

Respectfully,

Erick

posted 07-05-2003 13:39         

Regarding the diseases that decimated the native American populations, you might want to read this.
http://muweb.millersville.edu/~columbus/papers/goodling.html

Respectfully,

Erick

posted 07-12-2003 14:05         

Y'know, I just don't understand why so many people have such an aversion to accepting the fact that oreichalcos means simply "mountain copper"? Well, perhaps this will help some people to understand how that word/phrase came to be in the Atlantis story.

Names like "mountain copper" or "mountain gold" were actually quite common in ancient times. For instance, the descriptive phrases "gold of the mountain" and "gold of the water (1,000 deben)" were written on the walls in the temple at Medinet Habu that contains a group of five treasure-chambers. These descriptive phrases were used to differentiate gold from the mountain mine as distuinguished from gold of the stream in two of the seven sacks of gold that are listed in one register. There were a total of eight sacks listed, but the eighth sack contained Lapis lazuli. The accompanying inscription reads:

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Utterance of King Ramesses III, to his father, Amon-Re, king of gods: "Take thou gold and silver like sand of the shore, I have produced them for thee from the waters and the mountains, that I might present them to thee by the measure (an unknown measure [Ddmwt hr-t]), the regalia of thy majesty everyday. I bring to thee lapis lazuli, malachite, and every costly stone in chests [and] electrum. I have made for thee many sacred eye amulets of every splendid, costly stone."

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Gold is also listed by region (e.g. Kush, Edfu, Ombos, Coptos) as well as "native" and "fine".

The last type of gold that is listed is "gold of two times". I'm not really sure what exactly that means.

The Harris Papyrus lists gold (both of the mountain and water), fine gold, gold of two times, gold as inlay and in relief, white gold, gold in vessels/ornaments/scrap, silver, silver in vessels/ornaments/scrap, silver as inlay and in relief, silver in beaten work, crude silver, copper, beaten copper, copper plate, copper in vessels and scrap, raised copper (i.e. in relief), black copper, bronze, bronze in hammered work, bronze in beaten work (of a mixture of 6 parts), bronze in vessels and scraps, lead, tin, and iron.

I believe that these passages from the Mortuary Temple of Ramesses III, at Medinet Habu, serve to show that the ancient Egyptians were very well familiarized with the various types of metals and had names for differentiating various types of the same metal. Most importantly, the use of the word "mountain", by the ancient Egyptians, as a means of identifying a metal as having been mined from the mountains versus having been obtained from some other source, such as a stream, is extremely 'telling' and serves to corroborate what academic scholars, Georgeos, and myself (as well as some others) have been saying all along.

Respectfully,

Erick

posted 07-12-2003 17:06         

http://forums.atlantisrising.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000442-9.html <-

posted 07-15-2003 09:24         

After a long pause I come back to the "orichalcum" discussion.
Yes, "mountain copper" is the correct translation, and I will give you my thoughts about its real meaning which I posted today in Smileys "Cooperatve Research" thread:

Plato´s remark that the city walls of the innermost circle "flashed with the red light of orichalcum" shows that orichalcum must contain copper, because copper is the only metal
which has a red colour and gives it also to its alloys. But copper and all known copper alloys exposed to the atmosphere will soon tarnish to an unattractive brown and black , later to a green colour.
Is there any metal or alloy, which retains its red or red golden colour also after tarnishing?
In a paper of Peter Northover in "Old World Archaeometallurgy" 1989 is written, that he studied dagger blades from the first half of the second millenium BC, found in Palestine, which were made from copper containing 3 - 6 % arsenic. By a yet unknown process the surfaces of these artifacts were enriched with arsenic and consisted of a layer of the intermetallic compound Cu3As. This normally has a silver appearance that will tarnish to an attractive red golden colour.
Northover believed that these weapons were prestige production because of their rarity. Only very few similar artifacts were found in other cultures of the early bronze age, e.g. near Quimperle, France. The process of producing the special arsenic-rich surface is not known and has not yet been reproduced.

This could be a possible explanation for Plato´s "orichalcum" :
1. Copper with arsenic content could be "dug out of the earth", because most copper ores naturally contain a certain amount of arsenic. During the normal melting processes it is possible to retain "arsenic copper" or "Arsenic Bronze", which is as hard as tin bronze and can be used for tools and weapons. Most of the copper artifacts from the so called "Copper Age" (ca.4500 - 2000 BC), which was the oldest metal using period prior to the "Bronze Age", are not made from pure copper, but from arsenic copper, which has the same appearance as copper.
2. The special process to produce an arsenic rich surface was necessary to make metal objects, which did not loose their attractive shining surface appearance after a short time, but due to the coloured tarnish retained their golden appearance. This could be the reason that these objects "were more precious in those days than anything except gold". They had the colour of gold, better mechanical properties than gold, and were very rare due to the complicated process of the production of this special tarnish.
3. The know-how to produce these valuable objects has since been forgotten - in our times as well as in Plato´s times, because after the general introduction of tin bronze instead of arsenic bronze during the Bronze Age all the old techniques must have got lost. So Plato could write, that orichalcum "is now only a name and was then something more than a name."

The Wndrer wrote in his post of 6-24-2003, that gold coloured, super hard copper axes and knives were found in South America and Yucatan. According to Heather Lechtman, professor from the Mass.Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Mass., the transition from the use of arsenic bronze to tin bronze occured about 1000 AD, that means 3000 years later than in Europe and Asia. It is possible that the South Americans had up to this time the knowledge to produce the golden surfaces on arsenic bronze (not copper (!)) tools.

Ulf

posted 07-15-2003 10:19         

Below -> brass using an old Egyptian technique. http://www.khan-al-khalil.com/brass/image/brass.gif

In Latin Orichalcum is the the yellow copper ore you can make brass out of. It can also mean the finished brass itself which explains why you could both mine it directly and cover walls with orichalcum. It never means bronze.

posted 07-15-2003 17:59         

But I have also found this pair of terms being used in 18th century BC Mari.

"The usual copper:silver [price] ratio at Mari was 180:1 for unrefined, "mountain" copper, with refined (literally "washed") copper being valued at 150:1."

Here is a link which explains this. The link is rather large. So scroll half-way down the link, and look in the "blue" text, to locate the passage which I cited. http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/trade1.htm

posted 07-16-2003 09:04         

Red brass contains more copper than zinc which makes it red. But as most copper alloys it also contains small amounts of other stuff.