posted 06-15-2003 12:19         

A couple weeks or so ago I mentioned that I didn't think that there was really anything new to discuss regarding orichalcum. Oscar's incessant ramblings about every topic other than orichalcum has only served to confirm that suspicion.

I feel that it is my privelage to close out this thread and to have the last word before doing so, due to the fact that I started this thread. Therefore, I am re-posting an earlier post to this thread, immediately after which the thread will be closed to future postings.

Here is the previous post.

Everyone,
Does anyone else here feel, as I do, that the topic of orichalcum has been pretty well exhausted?

Oscar has written:

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I said it before somewhere else and I repeat it again: it's an error to assume because the story was made by Plato we should start from Latin or Greek as a source of the linguistic root. An alloy was known by the incas with the same name qoricallco and some linguists think quechua has roots in many languages, even proto-greek and etrurian.Hence, forget Latin & Greek for a while and search into the past, whoever can!
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The story of Atlantis comes to us from Plato, a Greek, and it was written down by him in the Greek language, therefore, it is only appropriate to examine the etymology of the word "oreichalcos" in relation to its source - the ancient Greek language (Attic dialect). To examine the etymology of the word in any other language is to give credence to the speculation that a word with phonetic similarity might have its origin in 'Atlantean'. This would be a speculation with no basis in fact, as no physical evidence, or example, of an 'Atlantean' language has ever been discovered. This would also be a speculation based upon the assumption that the 'Atlantean' language was not an already known and well-documented language, whose association has not yet been connected to 'Atlantis'. This would be a very bad and misleading (I believe) assumption to make.

The etymology of the word "oreichalcos" has been examined in relation to the ancient Greek Attic dialect, by both Georgeos and myself, and the result of that was this:

Georgeos:

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In texts of Plato - written in Greek it is denominated to this metal like, "oreikhalkós" (oreichalcos), which is pronounced like "orichalcos". Literalemente, this voice means, "copper of mountain", "orei", "mountain", and "khalkós", "receives".
Plato are not speaking of any "gold" alloy and "silver" or of "gold" and "receives", nor of no other strange metal alloy. There is no "mystery". Plato to only speaks us of a simple "Mountain copper", that is to say, a type of "natural copper" that was obtained directly from the mines.

As it demonstrates it in another fragment of the dialogue of Kritias, where it clarifies that the "oreichalcos" or "mountain copper" were obtained directly from mosntañas.

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Myself (Erick):

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According to the 7th edition Scott & Liddell's Greek-English Lexicon (Oxford University Press, 1997),

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Chalcos - copper, Lat.aes, Hom., etc.; called in reference to its color, erythros, Il.:--copper was the first metal wrought for use...hence chalcos came to be used for metal in general; and, when men learnt to work iron, chalcos was used for sideros, and chalceus came to mean a blacksmith. Chalceos also meant bronze (i.e. copper alloyed with tin), not brass (i.e. copper alloyed with zinc, which was a later invention), and this was its sense when applied to arms.
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It is, therefore, my belief (and the result of my research) that "oreichalcos" should be interpreted as "mountain metals", which would refer to any metal mined from the mountains, but would specifically refer to copper and its derivatives.

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So, based upon the etymology of the Greek word "oreichalcos" we should conclude that Plato was referring to one of the two meanings found above - either "mountain copper", as Georgeos suggested, or "mountain metals", the more 'generic' meaning that I have suggested. The reason that I subscribe to the more 'generic' interpretation is because Plato wrote (to paraphrase) that, at that time (i.e. the time of Atlantis), it had only the one name, but during his (Plato's) time it had more names.

When copper, its derivatives, and its derivatives' constituent metals, are grouped under the more generic term "mountain metals", it allows for the later "break-out" into more names (copper, bronze, tin, zinc, etc.). This, and the Greek-English Lexicon's definition are the reasons that I have proposed the more generic meaning of "mountain metals" (under which category "natural copper" occasions to fall).

Respectfully,

Erick

posted 06-15-2003 22:47         

Keep going. Your words only confirm your ignorance. Do you really believe, even for a second, that anyone with an ounce of common sense "buys into" your elephants in America nonsense? You need to take a reality break.

For the absolute last time, I could give a rat's behind about the Quiche, Nahuatl, or any other South or Central American language, because it has absolutely no relevance to the topic of orichalcum - a Greek word found in a Greek text. If the word orichalcum had been found in an Aztec text, and not in a Greek text, and if the Atlantis story had been written by an Aztec, then I might care about the Nahuatl or Quiche languages; but it didn't, it wasn't, and I don't!

You want to know why the paleontologist refused a dialogue with you? Its most likely due to YOUR EXTREME LACK OF TACT. It was either that or the absolute stupidity of the question you put to him. You actually had the nerve to ask a scientist working on a virtual reality model of dinosaur skeletons if he had "compared with other mammals and did his math calculations including muscle tissue"??? Of course he did! Why wouldn't he have??? Do you you think that you are the only person capable of a thought?

"Preciousssss ssssscience"? Here's a thought, put your Tolkein down and pick up a scientific or academic research journal! Scientists never claimed to have found water on the moon, one scientists theorized about the possibility of ice in one of the craters at one of the moon's poles - nothing more. If a journalist took it and made it "news worthy" with a spectacular headline designed to catch a person's attention, then so be it. If a person, however, was in touch with what science was doing, or bothered to read the article, they would have immediately found out otherwise.

You haven't seen any comment regarding elephants in America in any other threads, because I know that there wasn't any.

Incidentally, I am NOT currently writing, nor having published, a book. I currently have no future plans on writing a book, nor on having one published. If you had bothered to read what I wrote you would know that already.

Lastly, your attempts to "belittle" me into backing down from what my research has indicated to me are as transparent as your arguments.

Give it up.

Erick

posted 06-16-2003 21:17         

"Above-ground" copper existed in North
America around 7000 BC, when local natives first learned to work coppper. It was located in the northern peninsula of Michigan. At the end of this post I will give a link which explains the float copper which was used from 7000 BC to 3000 BC.

More specifically, this type of copper has been labeled "float copper", because glaciers had ground away the upper soil levels, exposing the veins of copper, and then literally floated away some copper chunks.

Ancient people needed to see (and use) some "float" copper on the surface of the earth, before those ancients became interested in mining underground to get copper.

I find it logical for Plato to be saying that "above ground" copper (oreichalc) no longer existed in his era, but that it had existed long ago.

Here is a very interesting webpage which discusses the ancient (7000 BC) usage of float copper in Upper Michigan:
http://copperculture.homestead.com

posted 06-21-2003 19:09         

understand? Plato said that it is now only known by name. What Plato meant was that he didnt know exactly what mountain copper was, more than some kind of mix ( natural or manmade alloy / ore ) including copper.

I therefore mean that Orichalcum means mountain copper and that Plato knewed it was some kind of MIX including copper, but he didnt know what. The Atlanteans probably called it mountain copper, but how should Plato know what the Atlanteans meaned with mountain copper? Thats my point.

And there have been Elephants in America a long time ago, but at the end of the last ice age. I think that if you find pictures or statues showing Elephants in America it´s beacause the people who made them had sometime been in either Asia or Africa and seen Elephants or their Ancestors. It doesnt mean that Atlantis was in America. And as I said before. The preist in Plato´s texts didnt say that the war and the destruction of Atlantos took place 11.600 BP. He said that the first Greek civilization was created back then, and that the Egyptian civilization was created 1000 years after.
The war couldnt have taken place 11.600 BP cuz the civilizations in the war didnt existed back then. The text doesnt say it. And IRL science doesnt say it.

Atlantis wasnt in America, and if it was then the it was much later and the elephants still comes from Indian or African Elephants.

posted 06-21-2003 19:28         

Chalkeos = of copper or bronze, brasen
oreichalkos = mountain copper, copper ore
oreichalkou = mountain copper, copper ore

The Greek original word they translated as Brass was in Plato:" chalkôi "

chalkôi = of copper or bronze, brasen

Therefore, the Brass which they coated the outher walls with could be either: bronze, brass, copper or some other kind of copper alloy. ( natural or artificial )

The only thing we can say is that the chalkôi
and oreichalkos(Orichalcum) was two different things. Both could have been brass but still different things. Maybe Red Brass and ordinary brass. Red Brass has more percentage of copper than ordinary brass and is therefore more reddish/orange. It could also have been bronze and the other brass.
Or one of them either bronze or brass and the other, some other type of copper alloy.

posted 06-21-2003 19:44         

Some translators of these texts translated both chalkoi and oreichalkoio as shining bronze. In other words: they translated 2 different words as the same thing. But if they used chalkoi and oreichalkoio in weapons maybe it was bronze?

Another solution to the problem could be that the ancient greeks didnt have different words for different copper alloys. Maybe just one word ( written in many ways ) for all types of copper alloys.

The weapons could ( if the above is right ) therefore still be bronze even if the same Greek words in the Atlantis texts maybe mean brass, copper or another copper-alloy.

posted 06-22-2003 10:12         

Google was able to find your posting on this forum. But it seems that no other person(s) on the internet is using your word.

Are you spelling your word correctly?

posted 06-22-2003 18:56         

Example: maybe its name in Egypt language was gyro-orsa. Then we find that the name for Iron in India is gyr-orsa. Does this mean that the thing was Iron!? No... we have to look in the meanings of the names, not the name. Obviously the meaning in this case was mountain copper.

posted 06-23-2003 04:53         

Plato didnt know what mountain copper was and probably not the preist either. understand?" You said: You don't actually believe that do you?

What I mean is that he didnt know what mountain copper was. A modern example is catfish. catfish isnt a cat which is a fish, its a kind of fish. Its just 2 words. In the same way mountain copper isnt copper in the mountains. Its just a name for something including copper(probably including copper), like catfish is something including fish and
look a little bit like a cat.

Forget about the word Orichalcum, it has nothing to do with this and never had.

If you find a metall or alloy in America which the inhabitants there always called mountain copper with a word meaning "mountain copper", then I would listen to you.

As I said Im open minded and it could be that the original meaning of that south-american word maybe was "mountain copper" cuz it was a loan word and came with ancient seafarers across the Atlantic.

posted 06-23-2003 05:32         

Example: a person unfamiliar with catfish dont know what catfish is more than that the meaning of the name is cat+fish. I have never seen a catfish. I dont know what it is.

You said: Just like you said we have to look at the meaning of this name.

Ofcourse. And the meaning is atleast Orei for the first part. And Orei is "mountain" no doubt. It maybe could be that another meaning for chalkos could be "metall" like Eric´s suggestion. Then it would be mountain metall. You can ask any researcher in ancient Greek language about the meaning of orei. It could ofcourse be electrum if metall(instead of copper) is the right solution to the problem, but in Solon´s time chalkos was always used as a word meaning copper or an alloy containing copper. Therefore we should beleive that the Egyptian preist wanted to tell us the meaning of the red thing the Atlantean used. The meaning of what the Atlantean called it ( or rather the meaning of the Egyptian word ) was therefore mountain copper.

posted 06-24-2003 11:08         

You can see this word-sharing by studying the multidictionary for metals in 119 languages: www.vanderkrogt.net/elements/fecu.html

The Vlach shepherds today wander around the Balkan mountains, and extend as far south as Greece. The gypsies wander more widely.

The earliest mines in Europe were copper mines in the Balkans and in southern Bulgaria. Here is a link which discusses the history of mining in the Balkans:
www.mineralresourcesforum.org/docs/pdfs/SalaticPlenary.pdf

Here is a link which explains Stara Zagora, the largest neolithic city in Bulgaria (founded 6000 BC), which also happens to be connected to the oldest copper mine in Europe. This was a huge mining complex, and has been dated to 5000 BC: www.szeda.bg/tourism/museums.html

So it appears that the Greek language received its word "chalcos" due to the traders which first brought copper into Greece from the region of the Balkan mountains.

[This message has been edited by atalante (edited 06-24-2003).]

posted 06-24-2003 17:38         

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sierraslidr@yahoo.com
Yahoo Messenger ID = sierraslidr

Mmmmmmm, CHEESECAKE!!!!

posted 06-25-2003 10:43         

So the colors of the rocks which they quarried should represent various copper ores: CHALCOSITE (Copper Sulphate), CUPRITE (Copper Oxide) and CHALCOPYRITE (Copper Iron Sulphate.

posted 06-25-2003 21:41         

quote:

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Indian Languages of the Americas

The languages of the Indians of the Americas exhibit great diversity in both vocabulary and grammar. In the 1920's, Edward Sapir proposed 6 "superstocks", or very large, general groupings based on grammatical similarities for the Indian languages north of Mexico: Eskimo-Aleut, Nadene, Algonkian, Hokan-Siouan, Penutian, and Aztec-Tanoan. Today, these groupings are generally recognized as families, with the following changes: Eskimo-Aleut is now called Inuit-Aleut, Algonkian has been broadened to Algonkian-Mosan, and the latter 2 have been combined into a new, larger family called Macro-Penutian. (In 1960-1970, Joseph Greenberg lumped Algonkian-Mosan, Hokan-Siouan and Macro-Penutian into a proto-proto-language he called Amerind. This classi-
fication is still widely contested by many linguists, and is not used in this work.) Many of the languages of Mexico and Central America have been found to fall into one of these families.
Linguists also now generally recognize 4 other language families in Central and South America:
Andean-Equatorial, Ge-Pano-Carib, Macro-Chibchan, and Oto-Manguean.
Andean Equatorial
The Andean Equatorial family of languages is one of four language families now generally recognized for Mexico, Central and South America. The Andean Equatorial languages, with the exception of Garifuna, are all found in South Amerida. The family is divided into five branches: Equatorial, Aymara-Quechua, Tupi-Guarani, Jivaro-Tucano, and Tierra del Fuegan. Best known of the Andean Equatorial languages are Arawak, Aymara, Quechua (the language of the Inca civilization), and Jivaro.
Aymara
Aymara (Andean Equatorial) belongs to the Aymara-Quechua branch of the Andean Equatorial family of languages. Aymara is spoken in the country of Peru, and also in Bolivia, Chile, and Argentina.
Quechua
Quechua (Andean Equatorial), also spelled Kechua and Quichua, belongs to the Aymara-Quechua branch of the Andean Equatorial family of languages. Quechua was the language of the Incas and is still spoken today in Peru and neighboring countries. In fact, in Peru there are almost as many speakers of Quechua as of Spanish. Indeed, like Navajo,
Quechua is one of the few American Indian languages which is increasing in number of speakers. There are a number of dialects. The Incas did not develop an alphabet, but instead kept records by means of a "quipu" (Quechua for "knot"), an arrangement of variously-colored cords knotted in different ways. These quipus were reminders of the oral-tradition literature. Quechua has been written with the Latin alphabet since the Spanish Conquest, but still today spelling is not standardized. Media Lengua is a creole mixing Spanish and Quechua.

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These two languages are usually grouped together into the branch known as Quechumaran. Quechumaran was spoken by the Incan empire. The Inca empire lasted from approximately 1200-1600 AD. This is at least 1500 years AFTER Plato wrote the Timaeus and Critias.

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Macro-Penutian
Macro-Penutian is one of the families of North American Indian languages. It is comprised of two of the "superstocks," Penutian and Aztec-Tanoan, originally proposed by the linguist Edward Sapir. It includes a number of languages divided among the following branches: Penutian, Mapudungu, Huave, Mixe-Zoquean, Totonac, Mayan, and Aztec-Tanoan.

Quiche
Quiche (Macro-Penutian), also spelled K'iche, belongs to the Quichean sub-branch of the Greater Quichean sub-branch of the Eastern Mayan sub-branch of the Main Mayan sub-branch of the Mayan branch of the Macro-Penutian family of languages. Quiche is spoken in Guatemala. The Popul Vuh, the sacred book of the pre-Hispanic Maya, was written in Quiche.

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The Mayan civilization was at its height from between approximately 300-900 A.D.; this is when the Pyramid of the Sun was constructed. This is at least 600 years AFTER Plato wrote the Timaeus and Critias.

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Nahuatl
Nahuatl (Macro-Penutian), also called Aztec, belongs to the Nahuatlan sub-branch of the Uto-Aztecan sub-branch of the Aztec-Tanoan branch of the Macro-Penutian family of languages. Nahuatl was the language of the Aztec empire. It is still widely spoken in Mexico. At the time of the Spanish conquest, Nahuatl was written in pictographs, but the Spaniards introduced the Latin alphabet which has been used since then. Sierra Nahuatl is regarded as a dialect by some scholars and as a separate language by others. It is treated separately herein. Mexica is another dialect.

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Much emphasis has been placed by Oscar on the Oltec civilization and their stylized stone heads. In regards to that:

quote:

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4. Middle Formative (Pre-Classic) Period 900-300 BC
Olmec civilization; widespread trade; diffusion of Olmec traits in many directions; class divisions. Spread of Mayan speakers into Lowlands seems to have occurred in this period.
Caution: The most famous artifacts of the Olmecs were giant stone heads. Some observers have regarded them as having "Negroid" features and have therefore imagined African influence. This calls for much derivative speculation about how such influence could have occurred. Had Africans settled in Mexico, they would almost certainly have brought Old World diseases far earlier than the Spanish did. More likely the stylization of the giants heads is merely that: stylization.

And:

5. Late Formative (Pre-Classic) Period
Mexico: 300 BC - AD 150; Maya Area: 300 BC - AD 250
(Traditionally 300 for both areas)
"Urban Revolution": building of the great urban centers, new social class divisions.
(Note: If there were trans-Pacific contacts, they would have occurred sometime before the end of this period, since the "shared cultural traits" were then in place. However neither material goods nor diseases seem to have moved across the sea by this time, so "shared cultural traits" must be provisionally attributed either to chance or to parallel developments from traditions that antedate the last of the Beringia migrations.)

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About Indo-Hittite Languages
The Indo-Hittite family of languages is more commonly called Indo-European, but since one branch of the family also has that name, the name Indo-Hittite will be used for the family in this work, to avoid confusion. The Indo-European branch has the following sub-branches: Albanian, Armenian, Balto-Slavic, Celtic, Germanic, Hellenic, Illyric, Indo-Iranian, Italic, Macedonian, Ligurian, Sicilian, Thraco-Phrygian, and Tocharian. The other branch of the Indo-Hittite family is Anatolian, which includes Hittite as well as several other lesser-known languages. Some of the languages comprising the Indo-European branch are: Bengali, Dutch, English, French, German, Greek, Gujarati, Hindi, Icelandic, Irish, Italian, Kashmiri, Latin, Marathi, Norwegian, Panjabi, Persian, Polish, Portuguese, Rajasthani, Romany, Russian, Spanish, Swedish, and Welsh. The genetic relationships among languages descended from (Proto-)Indo-European have been studied by Western linguists more than those for any other group of languages.
Greek

Greek (Indo-Hittite) belongs to the Hellenic sub-branch of the Indo-European branch of the Indo-Hittite family of languages. Ancient Greek includes Mycenaean Greek – found in a style of writing now called Linear B --, West Greek (which includes Doric), and East Greek (divided into Aeolic, Arcado-Cyprian, and Attic-Ionic, which includes Attic and Ionic. Ionic later gave rise to Koine, the most common dialect at the time of Christ -- and thus the dialect of the Greek New Testament. Hellenistic Greek was a variety of Koine. Koine in time became Medieval Greek, of which Byzantine Greek was one dialect. Medieval
Greek in turn became Modern Greek.) Greek is the language of the country of Greece; it is also the religious language of the Greek Orthodox Church. It is written with the Greek alphabet. (Note that inscriptions found in a script now called Linear A, originally thought
to be Greek, or possibly Semitic, have now proven to be in a language called Minoan Greek, a separate but related language.)

About Austric Languages
The Austric family of languages includes languages spoken in India, Southeast Asia, and the Pacific Islands. It is divided into two branches, Austroasiatic and Austronesian, the latter formerly called Malayo-Polynesian. The Austroasiatic branch has three sub-branches: Munda, Mon-Khmer, and Vietnamese-Muong. The Munda languages are spoken in southern India. Best-known of the Mon- Khmer languages is Khmer (formerly called Cambodian), while Vietnamese belongs to the Vietnamese- Muong sub-branch. Austronesian is divided into four sub-branches: Malayan, Melanesian, Micronesian, and Polynesian. Among Malayan languages are Bahasa Indonesia, Balinese, Javanese, Ilocano, Tagalog, and Visayan -- the latter three spoken in the Philippines. Fijian is the best-known Melanesian language. The Micronesian sub-branch includes the languages of various small island groups: Caroline, Gilbertese, Marianne, Marshallese, Truk, and Yapese. The Polynesian languages include Hawaiian, Rarotongan, Samoan, Tahitian, Tongan, and Maori -- the language of the New Zealand aborigines. Please note that only those languages for which the Mansfield Library has some holdings are listed here.

Ambonese, Ami, Atayal, Austronesian Languages, Bahasa Indonesia, Bajau, Balinese, Batak, Bukat, Bunun, Chrau, Dayak Languages, Dehu, Efate, Futuna-Aniwa, Hawaiian, Ifugao, Illanun, Javanese, Kadazan, Kanakabau, Kereho, Busang, Kereho-Uheng, Khmer, Kiriwinian, Maduran, Makassarese, Malagasy, Malay, Malayan Languages, Maluku, Maori, Marquesan, Marshallese, Minangkabau, Mnong Gar, Mon-Khmer Languages, Murut, Oceanic Languages, Paiwin, Palau, Pangasinian, Philippine Languages, Polynesian Languages, Punan Languages, Puyuma, Rapanui, Rarotongan, Rukai, Rungus, Saaroa, Saisiyat, Samoan, Sarawak Languages, Sasak, Seedeq, Semang, Suluk, Sundanese, Tagalog, Tahitian, Tasaday, Temiar, Tiruray, Truk, Tsou, Vietnamese, Visayan, Yami

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Rongorongo is Oceania's only indigenous script that predates the twentieth century.
Rongorongo evidently flourished for only about three generations, from the 1770s or 1780s up to the mid-1860s, when Rapanui society imploded.

Etruria
Napoleon established Etruria in 1801 for Louis of Bourbon-Parma (a relative of the Bourbon Spanish king).

Vasco
Vasco?! Have no freakin idea what that is! I cannot find ANY reference to that.

The late dates of almost all of these civilizations and the fact that Plato’s Timaeus and Critias PREDATES nearly all of them is the reason that I dismiss them as possibilities. It is not, as you suggest, merely “close-mindedness”.

Erick