posted 11-05-2002 17:52         

oreigenês, "mountain-born", "oreiocharês, "delighting in the hills", oreitrophos, "mountain-bred, mountain-fed", oreiplanktos, "mountain-roaming", oreiphoitos, "mountain-roaming", oreiarchês, "mountain-king".

Warm Greetings of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano

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Warm and Respectful greetings of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano

Georgeos@ArchaeoTour.com

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"Society the International of Scientific Atlantology"
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The first one and only List upon the scientific study of the Atlantis in Hispanic tongue dedicated exclusively to the study and to the scientific discussion upon the historic existence of the Civilization of Atlantis and its possible location in the only point in which situates it Platon that is to say, "next to the Columns of Hércules (Gibraltar) and the region of Gades (Cádiz)". All the information upon the Atlantida: the complete dialogues of Plato in its original versions Greek-latins; and other old texts in other tongues as the Egyptian, where reference is done to the Atlantis facing Gibraltar among Iberia and Africa. The scientific but recent investigations and rigorous in matter of geology and archaelogy that permit to show that if the Atlantis existed really alone could be in algun point among Gibraltar and the Island Madeira.

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posted 11-05-2002 22:33         

According to the 7th edition Scott & Liddell's Greek-English Lexicon (Oxford University Press, 1997),

quote:

---

Chalcos - copper, Lat.aes, Hom., etc.; called in reference to its color, erythros, Il.:--copper was the first metal wrought for use...hence chalcos came to be used for metal in general; and, when men learnt to work iron, chalcos was used for sideros, and chalceus came to mean a blacksmith. Chalceos also meant bronze (i.e. copper alloyed with tin), not brass (i.e. copper alloyed with zinc, which was a later invention), and this was its sense when applied to arms.

---

It is, therefore, my belief (and the result of my research) that "oreichalcos" should be interpreted as "mountain metals", which would refer to any metal mined from the mountains, but would specifically refer to copper and its derivatives.

Respectfully,

Erick Wright

posted 11-06-2002 03:31         

Their considerations seem correct logics and. We agreed in it.

I always resort to the ethimology of the words, that is to say, to the study by his roots. It is the best way to deepen in the true original meaning of the voices. But without never leaving the historical and linguistic context.

According to the studies most recent "khalkos" could derive from one old root, "khalk", whose original meaning would be the one of "shining rock" or "mineral". But the important thing is that from the oldest times it was used fundamentally to denominate to "copper" and to its derivatives. It is clear that the Greek word, "oreikhalkós", when taking in its composition the root, "orei-", "mountain", "mountainous", is saying to us that the "orichalcum", would be because a "natural copper" mineral (without artificial alloys) that was obtained directly from mountains.

The fact that Plato, through Kritias, describes to us that its color was "sparkling" or "ignition" like the fire, indicate to us, indeed that we are speaking of a type of copper, since neither the bronze nor the iron (that still did not know in the times of Atlantis) nor no other natural metal that are not the copper and the gold, sparkling with reddish colors like the fire. And it is clear that gold was not, since Plato always mentions to gold like a different metal with other uses.

The passage at issue, corresponds to Kritias 116c:

".... oreichalkôi marmarugas echonti purôdeis ..."

"...of "reflections" or "sparkles" (marmarugas) like the "fire" (pürôdeis).

In Greek the root "püro" was used to denominate to the "same fire" and all the resemblance and derivative. In fact, this same root, appears in voices related to the color of the fire or what is of "yellowish red" color, it is to say between "reddish" and "yellow". It is clear that Plato was speaking to us of a metal that corresponded perfectly with the "khalkos" name or root, that is, of "copper". The reflections and the color of copper are exactly "reddish yellowish", like the "fire". The copper is very similar in its coloration to gold, but with more reddish reflections like the fire.

Warm Greetings of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano

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Warm and Respectful greetings of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano

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"a list of the excessive declarations on the Atlantis would be an absolutely good document for the study of the human stupidity" (Franz Susemihl, 1856)

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Georgeos@ArchaeoTour.com
http://www.Atlantologia.com
http://GeorgeosDiaz.archaeotour.com

posted 11-06-2002 16:03         

We are in agreement then. By the way, welcome to the discussion.

Respectfully,

Erick

posted 11-06-2002 17:41         

You are right with your translation: „mountain copper“ or „natural copper mineral“. But that does not mean that „oreikhalkos“ could have been pure copper! Pure copper was never appreciated nearly as valuable as gold, because it was much more frequent and easy to produce out of the natural ores by only melting them at about 1050 degree Celsius, which was possible with a charcoal fire.
As I read in Plato´s Critias, the outermost wall of Atlantis was covered with „Khalkos“, which according to your translation means copper, the second wall with tin, which was in this time (and is also today) more expensive as copper. And the most precious metal covering the innermost wall should again have been pure copper? Why should the Atlanteans give to this copper another name and considered it nearly as precious as gold?

No, „oreikhalkos„ must have been something special.
When you look into a book about copper ores, you will find that nearly all natural copper ores, also those in Spain, contain a certain amount of arsenic, mostly 0,5 – 2,5 % in relation to the copper content. When you are melting this ore, you receive a metal which looks like copper, but has different properties. It is not soft any more, but hardenable, so you can produce useable tools or weapons from it. This metal is called dirty copper when it has only small arsenic content, but „Arsenic Bronze“ when the arsenic content is higher than 1%. In the so called „Copper Age“ (5000-3000BC) the used metal was mostly not pure copper, but this just described Arsenic Bronze, which has the same look as copper. The mechanical properties of Arsenic Bronze are the same or better than that of the commonly known Tin Bronze. Therefore the archaeologists ask themselves, why this useful metal was later completely replaced by Tin Bronze (Bronze Age 3000–1000BC)?
The reason was certainly, that after being known that the alloying of 10% tin to the copper gave the same mechanical properties, and when the tin was available by trade (mostly the tin ores were not at the same place as the copper ores), it was more convenient to use this alloy for tools, weapons etc., because for it´s production not so highly skilled workers were necessary, a kind of mass production could be established, and broken tools could be recycled by simple remelting. The production of good tools from Arsenic Bronze needs a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience, otherwise the product is scrub.

Now back to the „oreikhalkos“. As I wrote in my posting from 10-25-2002, there are special copper ores which contain more than 3% arsenic, up to 6%. These ores are very rare, and the melting is more dangerous, because exposed to the air the heated arsenic can oxydize, and the arsenic oxyde is volatile and very poisonous. Copper can only solve up to 5,1% arsenic; when the arsenic content is higher, the excess is precipitating within the metal during the cooling of the melt, which makes the alloy still harder. Daggers of such composition were found very rarely, but due to the surface corrosion they had tarnished to an attractive golden colour.
This is why I suspect that this special alloy could be Plato´s orichalcum: it was very rare, it sparkled like gold, it could be made from one single natural ore („natural copper mineral“), but it was so difficult to produce that also in our time no scientist could reproduce the process ( which in my opinion must contain certain special heating and cooling processes of the ready pieces) to get the same golden pieces as they were found in the tombs. May be that this knowledge was lost after the destruction of Atlantis.

posted 11-07-2002 05:17         

First, Khalkos (it copper), later, Kassiteros (tin), and finally the sum or mixes of both, the oreikhalkos that is, the bronze. All this is not more than propose a preliminary hipótesis.

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Warm and Respectful greetings of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano

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"a list of the excessive declarations on the Atlantis would be an absolutely good document for the study of the human stupidity" (Franz Susemihl, 1856)

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http://www.Atlantologia.com
http://GeorgeosDiaz.archaeotour.com

posted 11-08-2002 16:47         

Ulf wrote:

quote:

---

1) It was dug out of the earth in many parts of the island
2) In the days of Solon and Plato it was known only by name, but was not used any more
3) In the old days it was more precious than anything, except gold
4) It covered the walls of the acropolis
5) It covered the walls and pillars and floors of the temple
6) It sparkled like fire
7) It was used to make a pillar, on which the first kings inscribed the laws given by Poseidon, and over which pillar during their assembly every 5 or 6 years the ten kings sacrificed a bull, letting run down the blood over the inscription.

---

Erick wrote:

quote:

---

It is, therefore, my belief (and the result of my research) that "oreichalcos" should be interpreted as "mountain metals", which would refer to any metal mined from the mountains, but would specifically refer to copper and its derivatives.

---

Georgeos wrote:

quote:

---

In Greek the root "püro" was used to denominate to the "same fire" and all the resemblance and derivative. In fact, this same root, appears in voices related to the color of the fire or what is of "yellowish red" color, it is to say between "reddish" and "yellow". It is clear that Plato was speaking to us of a metal that corresponded perfectly with the "khalkos" name or root, that is, of "copper". The reflections and the color of copper are exactly "reddish yellowish", like the "fire". The copper is very similar in its coloration to gold, but with more reddish reflections like the fire.

---

I never agreed with the hypothesis that amber is Orichalcum. Why would anyone plate a wall with a material that degrades when exposed to the weather? If a gem, mineral, or metal were not durable, if it disintegrates easily when exposed, and in addition if it were scarce and valuable, then you'll put it in indoors, but not outdoors. Besides, no one considers amber all that valuable today. Why would it have been considered valuable back then? Same goes with pyrite (fool's gold). Not durable. It crumbles. Not valuable, it is very common. Besides, how are you going to cover or plate a wall with amber or pyrite? How are you going to make a pillar out of it?

Think of gold leaf. Gold leaf is used to decorate exterior surfaces, like capitol buildings, domes, mosques. It does not tarnish or oxidize easily. Gold is an amazing material. I remember seeing aircraft windows electroplated with gold. Makes an excellent windshield defroster. You just add a little electrical current to the window surface, and it keeps it warm enough so that no ice collects. Distributes the heat thoroughly over the entire windshield. Was it the Airbus A300 that had this design? Can't remember which aircraft I was working on that had this feature, it was an Airbus or a Boeing. The electroplated gold windshields were also naturally tinted. Low glare qualities.

So you have to figure this material is durable and practical, probably a metal, since metals can be cast into pillars, and they can be hammered and turned into a plate or a foil which would easily cover a wall. That has to be part of what makes it valuable.

If your linguistic analysis is correct, "oreikhalkos" is a natural ore ("Mountain copper," "natural copper"). It seems like the Greek root "orei-" is the root of the word "ore." That suggests a metal copper ore. If Orichalcum is a copper ore, then this copper ore must be alloyed with some other mineral(s) or metal(s). Metals are not found pure in nature, they are only found as alloyed substances.

What makes a metal precious or valuable? Scarcity. Beauty. Functionality, durability, strength.

I just can't imagine covering the innermost wall of a sacred Atlantean temple or shrine with iron or pure copper or silver or some other material that corrodes, leaving rust stains or green copper-oxide stains or black silver-oxide stains on the walls and on the ground.

Ulf wrote:

quote:

---

Now back to the „oreikhalkos“. As I wrote in my posting from 10-25-2002, there are special copper ores which contain more than 3% arsenic, up to 6%. These ores are very rare, and the melting is more dangerous, because exposed to the air the heated arsenic can oxydize, and the arsenic oxyde is volatile and very poisonous. Copper can only solve up to 5,1% arsenic; when the arsenic content is higher, the excess is precipitating within the metal during the cooling of the melt, which makes the alloy still harder. Daggers of such composition were found very rarely, but due to the surface corrosion they had tarnished to an attractive golden colour. This is why I suspect that this special alloy could be Plato´s orichalcum: it was very rare, it sparkled like gold, it could be made from one single natural ore („natural copper mineral“), but it was so difficult to produce that also in our time no scientist could reproduce the process ( which in my opinion must contain certain special heating and cooling processes of the ready pieces) to get the same golden pieces as they were found in the tombs. May be that this knowledge was lost after the destruction of Atlantis.

---

I am intrigued by this discussion of "arsenic copper" (arsenic bronze, an arsenic-copper alloy). And the discussion of some sort of natural-occurring gold ore. Is it possible Orichalcum was a copper alloy, maybe an alloy of gold and copper?

I have to dismiss the suggestion that Orichalcum is electrum (white gold, silver mixed with gold). Silver oxidizes to black, so silver would leave black stains on an exterior wall. Besides, the color is all wrong. Like Georgeos says, this Orichalcum has a reddish-yellowish look, or a reddish-gold look. There's no "red" in electrum. Electrum looks whitish, or if you add enough gold to it, light yellow.

Stainless steel is the wrong color, too.

So, it seems y'all are beginning to agree on a bronze. A "bronze" is a copper alloy which can contain tin, antimony, phosphorus, arsenic or other materials. Or gold, I suppose.

Oldreds says:

quote:

---

However, the most probable natural alloy for orichalcum is probably the so-called "Black Hills Gold," which is a natural alloy of gold and copper, a red gold. Images can be found at and [URL=http://goldmountainmining.com/blachilgolhe2.html]http://goldmountainmining.com/blachilgolhe2.html The gold can have a red, pink-rose, green, or yellow luster.

I do note that Jim Allen, author of Atlantis: the Andean Solution, reports that orichalcum is a natural alloy of gold and copper found only in the Andes. Where he got this, I have no idea. See http://www.geocities.com/webatlantis/challengethera.htm for more on this.

---

I am inclined to agree with Oldreds.

Orichalcum is some fiery metal alloy, probably containing copper, which would make it a "bronze."

A gold-copper alloy meets all the requirements:

• It meets the linguistic requirements of being a natural ore containing copper.
• It wasn't being used in the days of Solon and Plato.
• You can cover walls and floors with it.
• You can make a pillar out of it.
• It has the right fiery color.
• It's still scarce enough today to be considered a precious material.

And for me, intuition always plays a key role.

After all this discussion, I must admit that my intuition is still telling me the same thing. I must say, without any real shred of supporting evidence whatsoever, that I still believe that Orichalcum is a gold and copper alloy.

posted 11-08-2002 16:54         

quote:

---

i have a feeling it comes from something like sandstone, dont ask me how but i and several other people with past life memories of
??Atlantis??? and this is what we all subconciously relate this to.

---

I am very curious about this. I don't think you are seeing Orichalcum, I think you are seeing something else.

Would you write more detail about what you are seeing, and what these other people are seeing? I suspect you are looking at a building material that was commonly used at the time.

posted 11-08-2002 17:31         

Are clear that for You the intuition you are worth more than the reason and the common sense. My ethymological and linguistic analysis demonstrates, without doubt, that the word "oreikhalkos", is translated like "copper of mountain" of orei- "mountain", "mountainous" and khalkos "copper".

I will not repeat what already I have written in this same topic. I believe that other colleagues and i myself, already we have given tests more than reasonable of than the "oreikhalkos" were not no "gold" alloy and "copper", but a mineral of perhaps copper that it was extracted of mountains, a type of bronze.

If this mysterious metal of Atlantis were a gold "alloy species" and "copper" as You create, on the basis of their intuition, the Greeks had would have denominated it with the name of khrüsoKhalkos (chryso-chalcos) that is, "gold-copper" or "copper auriferous"

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Warm and Respectful greetings of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano

posted 11-08-2002 17:32         

quote:

---

(1) There can be a case that the mines of Orichalcum may be found only in Atlantis.
(2) Nothing so far seems to have come out which may exactly match with the description of Orichalcum.
(3) It is quite possible that all Atlantis or its major parts may be remaining on the ground during the whole tenure of the ice age, when the sea water level may be low. So the mining of Orichalcum may be possible only during the ice ages.
(4) With the withdrawal of the ice ages and an increase of sea level, those Orichalcum ore mines may be going under the sea. As it is the case in present days.
(5) So those mines may have an unique opportunity to get submerged under sea water for many thousands of years and then coming clear above the ground.
(6) Those mines may be basically of Copper based ores and may have some mixture with Zink or Tin ores.
(7) Those ores may be reacting slowly for thousands of years with the ingredients of marine water, may be with compounds of Na, K, Ca, Br, P or some other chemicals. So that Copper based ore may be converting in to raw Orichalcum.
(8) For example Phosphorus though highly corrosive by itself, mixed with certain metal in higher than normal percentage may form a strong and permanent anti-corrosive protective film around the grain boundaries of the base metal. There may have to be a fixed percentage of Phosphorus. In lower than the desired ratio, the film may not remain protective and in higher percentage the film itself may rupture and form own granules.
(9) This or similar process may call for higher knowledge of Metallurgy and Chemistry. Atlanteans may be in possession of that desired knowledge. Hence the shining like flame of anti-corrosive Orichalcum.

---

I agree with you, Rajesh, we could use a metallurgist right about now.

If Orichalcum is an unusual new alloy that has been invented (or rediscovered, as the case may be), then it's just a matter of matching up the right modern name with the ancient name.

posted 11-14-2002 14:39         

As far as I know, Orichalcum being amber was first suggested by the German pastor and archeologist Juergen Spanuth (1907 – 1998). During archeological studies he found amazing similarities between the inscriptions on the temple walls of Medinet Habu, Egypt, and Plato´s Atlantis story. Therefore he considered the „Sea Peoples“ invading Egypt about 1150 BC being Atlanteans. From the pictures on the temple walls he found out, that the swords, helmets and ships used by the „Sea Peoples“ were those common in Northern Europe during the late Bronze Age. Also the inscriptions said that the home of those invaders was swallowed by the sea, and its location had been „at the 9th arch“, that means far in the north. He found that a great island not far from the tiny German island Heligoland (near Hamburg) had sunk at the end of the Bronze Age due to a great flood. It was always called „Holy Island“ which name remained in the name of Heligoland, and should have been the residence of a king.

In this region, during the Bronze Age, amber was dug out of the ground and traded to all mediterranean countries.(Up to our time you can find amber there, while most of it is now coming from the Baltic Sea). This stuff was very appreciated for jewels and was nearly as precious as gold. It has a red golden colour, and it can be solved in oil to make a varnish by which could be covered e.g. the walls of the temple, the city walls („which in the sun sparkled like fire“), pillars and all the things, which according to Plato were made from „Orichalcum“. This was the origin of the amber story. Spanuth wrote it 1953 in his book „Atlantis decyphered“.

posted 11-14-2002 15:55         

The "orichalcum" were, without a doubt some, a type of metal that was extracted of mountains, as it affirms Plato well, and was very abundant in Atlantis.

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Warm and Respectful greetings of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano

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"a list of the excessive declarations on the Atlantis would be an absolutely good document for the study of the human stupidity" (Franz Susemihl, 1856)

--------------------------------------------------


Georgeos@ArchaeoTour.com
http://www.Atlantologia.com
http://GeorgeosDiaz.archaeotour.com

posted 11-14-2002 15:55         

The "orichalcum" were, without a doubt some, a type of metal that was extracted of mountains, as it affirms Plato well, and was very abundant in Atlantis.

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Warm and Respectful greetings of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano

--------------------------------------------------

"a list of the excessive declarations on the Atlantis would be an absolutely good document for the study of the human stupidity" (Franz Susemihl, 1856)

--------------------------------------------------


Georgeos@ArchaeoTour.com
http://www.Atlantologia.com
http://GeorgeosDiaz.archaeotour.com

posted 11-17-2002 06:46         

You wrote about the Amber Routes in ancient times from the Baltic Sea shores to the Mediterranean countries. They lead mostly along the big rivers, like the Oder – the Danube, because the water transport was always easier than the transport over land. There were small boats which could go far upwards the rivers. A short way across the watersheds the goods had to be transported over land.

But in addition to the well known Baltic amber, the North Sea coast along Germany was also a mayor source of amber during the Bronze Age. When in 1968 at the mouth of the river Eider a dam was built, the excavators brought up enormous quantities of amber in pieces up to the size of a baby´s head. This North Sea amber was traded on the other Amber Route along the rivers Rhine and Rhone to Massilia (Marseille, France), or along the sea coasts to the strait of Gibraltar. To avoid the stormy Bay of Biscaya and to shorten the way, there existed still another route through Southern France, along the rivers Gironde and Aude, where in 1662 the „Canal du Midi“ was built along the old pass. It is said that in ancient times the watershed was much lower than today (169 meters above sea level) due to the slow rising of the Pyrenees. The Phoenicians had their „secret water way to the north“ on this route to transport tin by ship from Britain to the Mediterranean. Later emperor Augustus in Roman times planned to built a canal connection along this way, because in the meantime it had become unpassable by ship.

posted 11-17-2002 09:12         

Yes it does..........I agree with what you posted........

Amber is my fav and I had been researching it..

I think I will continue......For some reason I still believe there is a key here..

Seems all roads led to dead ends.

So I use my imagination.......

posted 02-24-2003 11:14         

You wrote about alloys molten in Bolivia, which are composed from gold and nickel, copper-gold-tin and silver-copper-tin.
Do you know which colour these alloys have? Plato´s orichalcum sparkled in the sun like fire, that means it must have been red-golden. The last alloy, in my opinion, will not have this colour.

posted 03-01-2003 12:12         

in an article of Heather Lechtman from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge/ Mass., I read about copper-silver gold alloys in the Andes:

"Copper-silver alloys, among the most versatile and widely used for sheet metal production in Ecuador, Peru and Mexico, develop enriched silver surfaces as they are hammered and annealed into thin sheet. Similarly, smiths treated the surfaces of thin sheet hammered from ternary copper-silver-gold alloys to deplete the surfaces in copper and silver, thereby enriching them in gold."

The golden colour of these metal sheets could be produced by hammering of a gold-containing copper alloy! This is an interesting aspect, but it will be necessary to know more about the percentage of gold in this alloy, and the time since this technique was used.

posted 05-29-2003 10:00         

Marble retains its luster indefinitely, unlike metals which tend to corrode. So its logical that a marble temple would be the centerpiece of Atlantis.

During the last 10 years, a museum has been opened in Tunisia to commemorate old quarries for a golden marble, called Marmor Mumidicum.

Evidently the oldest known (and surviving)application of Marmor Numidicum on monuments was a large altar at the cemetary of ancient Smitthus (near Carthage), dating to the 4th century BC.

But after Rome conquored Carthage, there was a great demand for this marble throughout the Roman empire.

Here is a link to that new museum, showing samples of the shiny marble which was know in antiquity as Marmor Numidicum.
http://chimtou.com/Raum3.html

posted 05-29-2003 19:47         

Entry 21 explains.

Duane McCullough www.spiritofatlantis.com

posted 05-29-2003 19:53         

Erick

posted 05-30-2003 04:23         

I was thinking of a sentence in the text of HERCULIS ATHLA DUODECIM AB EVRYSTHEO IMPERATA
( http://www.loyno.edu/~wemajor/coursestuff/texts/hyg30.htm)

“qui mala aurea Hesperidum servare solitus erat, ad montem Atlantem interfecit, et Eurystheo regi mala attulit”

posted 05-30-2003 08:18         

quote:

---

Well, Ulf, first my advice is take a look how scientists measure time and don't trust them.

Please, notice instead of answering, the "last word" available to read is theirs, and talking about socratic methods but very few things in order to have a scientific argument.

---

Well, Oscar, at least you're not bitter.

Erick

------------------
"None of the secrets of success will work unless YOU do."

posted 05-30-2003 08:57         

The "wall" you speak of is not nearly as "huge" as you would have everyone believe.

When I responded to atalante in the thread "Was Atlantis a Phoenician City?" and said "I have to admit that I have not researched much about Cyprus other than the Phoenician aspects" it was because, as I have said numerous times before, the result of my research and translation has been that a great deal of the descriptions found in the metaphrastic translation of Plato's Timaeus and Critias contain striking parallels to the Phoenician culture. Therefore, right now, until that portion of my research is exhausted, when I investigate any person, place, or thing, it will be in relation to its possible Phoenician aspects or involvement. When that investigation has been exhausted, then, and only then, will I broaden my search and begin to investigate other cultures. Its called focus. I am not so focused, however, as to just dismiss any viable theory or information that should happen to pass my way. That is why I have acknowledged several of the things that atalante, Ulf, and others, have written to me that pertained to my own research.
That is the very reason that I come here to this forum. Viable information, that pertains to my research, has come to me from others on this forum. Sometimes the saying does hold true that "two heads are better than one". A second head can also, however, cause a person to lose their focus and get "side-tracked". So, that is my challenge; to allow the viable information to get through to me without allowing myself to lose focus.

Respectfully,

Erick

posted 05-30-2003 10:04         

Does anyone else here feel, as I do, that the topic of orichalcum has been pretty well exhausted?

Oscar has written:

quote:

---

I said it before somewhere else and I repeat it again: it's an error to assume because the story was made by Plato we should start from Latin or Greek as a source of the linguistic root. An alloy was known by the incas with the same name qoricallco and some linguists think quechua has roots in many languages, even proto-greek and etrurian.Hence, forget Latin & Greek for a while and search into the past, whoever can!

---

The story of Atlantis comes to us from Plato, a Greek, and it was written down by him in the Greek language, therefore, it is only appropriate to examine the etymology of the word "oreichalcos" in relation to its source - the ancient Greek language (Attic dialect). To examine the etymology of the word in any other language is to give credence to the speculation that a word with phonetic similarity might have its origin in 'Atlantean'. This would be a speculation with no basis in fact, as no physical evidence, or example, of an 'Atlantean' language has ever been discovered. This would also be a speculation based upon the assumption that the 'Atlantean' language was not an already known and well-documented language, whose association has not yet been connected to 'Atlantis'. This would be a very bad and misleading (I believe) assumption to make.

The etymology of the word "oreichalcos" has been examined in relation to the ancient Greek Attic dialect, by both Georgeos and myself, and the result of that was this:

Georgeos:

quote:

---

In texts of Plato - written in Greek it is denominated to this metal like, "oreikhalkós" (oreichalcos), which is pronounced like "orichalcos". Literalemente, this voice means, "copper of mountain", "orei", "mountain", and "khalkós", "receives".

Plato are not speaking of any "gold" alloy and "silver" or of "gold" and "receives", nor of no other strange metal alloy. There is no "mystery". Plato to only speaks us of a simple "Mountain copper", that is to say, a type of "natural copper" that was obtained directly from the mines.

As it demonstrates it in another fragment of the dialogue of Kritias, where it clarifies that the "oreichalcos" or "mountain copper" were obtained directly from mosntañas.

---

Myself (Erick):

quote:

---

According to the 7th edition Scott & Liddell's Greek-English Lexicon (Oxford University Press, 1997),

quote:
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Chalcos - copper, Lat.aes, Hom., etc.; called in reference to its color, erythros, Il.:--copper was the first metal wrought for use...hence chalcos came to be used for metal in general; and, when men learnt to work iron, chalcos was used for sideros, and chalceus came to mean a blacksmith. Chalceos also meant bronze (i.e. copper alloyed with tin), not brass (i.e. copper alloyed with zinc, which was a later invention), and this was its sense when applied to arms.
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It is, therefore, my belief (and the result of my research) that "oreichalcos" should be interpreted as "mountain metals", which would refer to any metal mined from the mountains, but would specifically refer to copper and its derivatives.

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So, based upon the etymology of the Greek word "oreichalcos" we should conclude that Plato was referring to one of the two meanings found above - either "mountain copper", as Georgeos suggested, or "mountain metals", the more 'generic' meaning that I have suggested. The reason that I subscribe to the more 'generic' interpretation is because Plato wrote (to paraphrase) that, at that time (i.e. the time of Atlantis), it had only the one name, but during his (Plato's) time it had more names.

When copper, its derivatives, and its derivatives' constituent metals, are grouped under the more generic term "mountain metals", it allows for the later "break-out" into more names (copper, bronze, tin, zinc, etc.). This, and the Greek-English Lexicon's definition are the reasons that I have proposed the more generic meaning of "mountain metals" (under which category "natural copper" occasions to fall).

If nobody has anything additional to add in regards to the etymology of the Greek word "oreichalcos", then I am probably not going to post anything else in this thread and will most likely close out this thread.

Respectfully,

Erick