I will post more later today in regards to answering Andre's other questions. Until then I'll open the floor for discussion.

Fire away, guys!

Erick Wright

Please bear in mind that these are not corrections to the original text, but rather quotes from the metaphrastic translations. It is rather like comparing apples to oranges. Please check in sometime tomorrow and perhaps I can help make it all a little clearer. Remember, I have compiled over four years of solid research. There is a massive amount of information to go through, of which you have only seen the proverbial "tip of the iceberg." In the end, it is all more simple than you would ever dare to believe.

And before anyone comments about how "if its that simple then why don't you just go uncover the city," let me first cut you off by saying "It is in the works already." Private and corporate sponsorship takes time, and the wheels of academia move even slower!

Respectfully,

Erick Wright

Let me address your last posting first. In my opinion, any association of the natural catastrophes mentioned in the text with the end of Pleistocene/Holocene epochs is wishful thinking. It follows along with, or runs parallel to, the Graham Hancock religion which preaches that scholars and academics are wrong; that history needs to be rewritten. He wants to believe, and wants others to believe that civilization developed, to a level almost equal with our own, then due to some major catastrophe regressed and redeveloped. This would have the Atlantean civilization existing inside a vacuum in time and history. A Late Bronze Age city existing during the Stone Age?! It is a nice dream, however, all of the scientific evidence points to the contrary. The development of civilization really DOES run in a linear fashion.

As for any proposed 'jump' of CO2 concentrations in the air, I wouldn't be surprised if there was. Although I would place the time frame earlier - like around 11,000 B.C. The retreat of cyclical glaciation would have uncovered vast areas from their tombs of ice, releasing enormous tracts of land to fauna/vegetation growth and renewal. Part of this cycle, of course, is decomposition, of which CO2 is a by-product. Natural burn-outs, usually caused by lightning strikes, could also contribute to CO2 levels due to the fact that CO2 is a by-product of combustion. And since we're on the topic of combustion and CO2 levels, let's throw volcanic activity in there now as well, which would throw enormous amounts of CO2 in the air (as well as a variety of other gases).

And, as I have mentioned before, the word "heta" means "private citizens" and not "years." It is for this precise reason that I am sending my research paper to Oxford (as well as a couple of other 'blatant' errors). But it is something I'm sure we'll go back and forth on for quite some time.

Truly Andre, if you can get past the 9,000 years thing it becomes a mere matter of already known historical events.

Let me gather my research material together and I'll try to post another response with less argumentation and more information.

As to Tartessos or Tarshish? They are not likely to ever be mentioned in any of my narratives. They/it came along at a later time period. If anythinf they could be called 'Vassal' cities.

Respectfully,

I would like to add at this point that I do not understand Georgeos' assertion that the 9,000 vs. 900 issue stems from Solon's confusion due to the similarity between the Egyptian words.

In fact, 9,000 and 900 can both be expressed several different ways heiroglyphically and linguistically.

9,000 is composed of the symbols which are expressed phonetically as:

pestch (9) sep (to multiply) kha (1,000) OR
pestch (9) uah tchatch (to multiply) kha (1,000) OR
pestch (9) s-asha (to multiply) kha (1,000)

900 is composed of the symbols which are expressed phonetically as:

pestch (9) sep (to multiply) sha-t (100) OR
pestch (9) uah tchatch (to multiply) sha-t (100) OR
pestch (9) s-asha (to multiply) sha-t (100)

NOTE: pestch can also be replaced with pesd

SOURCE: "An Egyptian Heiroglyphic Dictionary" (in two volumes) by E.A. Wallis Budge

I'm sorry but I just don't see the similarity between "kha" and "sha-t", especially when the heiroglyphic symbol for "kha" is 'part of the papyrus plant' and the heiroglyphic symbol for "sha-t" is the 'measuring cord'. The two are not at all similar.

Georgeos, please explain your reasoning.

Respectfully,

This may well be long, so I'll ask you to forgive me for the length in advance.

In order to understand the entire context of the story, we first need to understand why Solon was in Egypt to be in a position to be able to receive the story.

I realize that it probably does not need to be stated, however, I will do it anyway. This is material from my research and fully formed hypothesis which I have entitled The Saitic Circle, which will also be the name of my web page. Therefore, any material contained within this posting is copyright protected.

Solon was, of course, the statesman responsible for drawing up Athens' Constitution. While a very old man, Solon made the journey to Egypt where he picked up the story of Atlantis. Many have supposed that Solon made the journey to Egypt as a sort of holiday, but this couldn't be farther from the truth. Solon was there on official business for the Greek city-states. A clue to this fact is actually found in the text itself when it is said that the Egyptian priest would take Solon to review the records in detail "kata scholeen" in his leisure time. This, of course, is versus the time in which he is conducting official business for Athens and Greece.

What was the official business? To quote from The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt, in the section entitled "The Late Period - written by Alan B. Lloyd:

quote:

---

About 571 BC we find the Libyans asking for Egyptian assistance in dealing with the expansionist policy of Cyrene, a Greek colony that had been founded in their territory about 630 BC. At the end of the reign of Apries this city embarked on a program of expansion that brought them into collision with Egyptian interests, and in the ensuing war Egypt was catastrophically defeated. Ahmose II adopted a totally different approach to the Cyrene problem. As early as 567 BC we find him forming an alliance with them against the Chaldaeans, and this diplomatic link was cemented by marriage to a Cyrenean woman who was alleged by some of Herodotus' sources, with considerable plausibility, to have been a princess. This alliance stood the test of time surprisingly well and was still in place at the time of the Persian invasion in 525 BC.

---

It is my belief that, since Cyrene was a Greek colony, that Solon (a diplomat) was in Egypt to 'broker' the alliance between Cyrene and Egypt against the Chaldaeans.

Interestingly enough, the place that Solon was said to have visited next was Lydia, where he met with Croesus of Sardis. This is interesting because in 559 BC, the year of Solon's death, Ahmose II was faced with a much more dangerous enemy than the Chaldaeans, namely the rise of Persia under the leadership of Cyrus the Great. To quote Alan B. Lloyd again:

quote:

---

To deal with this menace a grand alliance of threatened nations was created, which consisted of Egypt, Croesus of Lydia, Sparta and the Chaldaeans. With consummate strategic skill Cyrus knocked out the link between the scattered allies by destroying Lydia in 546 BC. He then turned on the Chaldaeans and took their capital Babylon in 538 BC, leaving Ahmose with no major near eastern allies. Ahmose reacted by developing a policy of cultivating close relations with Greek states to strengthen his hand against the impending onslaught, and again he was lucky. He died in 526 BC before the storm broke, leaving his son Psamtek III (526-525 BC) to face the Achaemenid assault.

---

It seems highly coincidental that after leaving Egypt Solon goes directly to meet with King Croesus of Lydia, who, in turn, later becomes an ally of the Pharoah from whose court Solon had just left (i.e. Ahmose II). It is my belief that there is some sort of connection there. Solon, however, died in that same year (559 BC) and was already in Athens at the time that Pisisastrus seized the strongholds of Athens and became tyrant in 561 BC. So he probably did not broker the deal between Egypt and her allies against Cyrus the Great.

So, clearly, Solon would have had sufficient reason to have been in Egypt to pick up the story. And Solon was in Egypt during the reign of Ahmose II, an Egyptian Pharoah of Libyan descent, who was extremely active in Sais - the home of his dynasty. There he erected a pylon for the Temple of Neith, set up colossal statues, and manufactured human-headed sphinxes for a processional way. And the Temple of Neith is where Plato has Solon speaking to the aged priest. So why is it so important for the priest to tell Solon the "Atlantis" story?

Going back to the time of 1200 BC we find that the Libyans and Sea Peoples that were defeated by Egypt, were settled in the Delta region in small districts or 'demes'. In fact, the Greek word "heta" is closely associated with the word "damos" or "demos", in that a "heta" is a resident of a "demos" (or deme). And Solon specifically commented about the people and great works he observed in the Delta region. To quote from the literal translations:

"Moreover all around of 9,000 private citizens to be produced - freemen you to declare by small districts and also of that which is wrought and all that beautifully accomplished; therefore then in minute detail all around all in succession hereafter in leisure time, the same inscriptions to undertake, to go through in detail."
Translation by E. W. Wright

Throughout the centuries following the invasions, the Libyans who were settled in the Delta region integrated into Egyptian society, until they finally reached positions of prestige in the Pharoah's court. From there it was a short step into the throne.

So, the priest wanted Solon to understand that, even though the Libyans were defeated in 1200 BC in their attempt to rule Egypt by force, the Libyans still accomplished insidiously, from the inside, what they were unable to accomplish by force from without - to place a Libyan on the throne of Egypt.

This is a lot to absorb, so I'll stop here for right now. In my next posting I'll talk about the true genius of Solon and how he got the story back home to Greece.

Respectfully,

Erick Wright

You are correct to a certain extent. Ahmose usurped the throne from Apries in 570 BC, but not in an alliance with the Greeks.

Apries (589-570 BC), the 6th ruler of the 26th dynasty, showed considerable favortism to his foreign mercenaries, who were mostly Greek and Carian, but probably also included some Jews, Phoenicians, and possibly some Shasu Bedouin. These troops had two functions;
1.) to guarantee Egypt's security from external attack and
2.) to provide a counterweight within the country to the power of the machimoi.

The machimoi were the native Egyptian warrior class who were Libyan in origin, and who posed a significant potential internal threat to royal authority.

The favortism shown to the Greeks and Carians, observed by their priveleged positions in the military establishment, blew up in Apries face in 570 BC. After a force of machimoi sustained a disastrous defeat to the Greeks of Cyrene, Ahmose saw his opportunity to use their ill feelings against the Greeks to his advantage. So he used the machimoi to defeat Apries' Greek and Carian mercenaries at Momemphis and usurp the throne of Egypt.

The few years following these events is, most likely, the time period when Solon made his appearance to broker an alliance between Egypt and the Cyreneans against the Chaldaeans.

As for the dynasty having had its roots in Assyria, again, this is true but only to a certain extent.

Nekau I (672-664 BC) had ruled at Sais under Assyrian protection until he was killed by the Nubian King Tanutamani (664-656 BC). Nekau's son, Psamtek I (664-610 BC), succeeded to his father's position with Assyrian support and initially controlled about half the Delta from Sais. Psamtek realized that the Assyrians couldn't maintain their control indefinately so far west, and exploited that situation to his advantage. In about 658 BC he received support from Gyges of Lydia in emancipating himself from Assyrian control, which is probably why he employed Greek and Ionian mercenaries - in an effort to strengthen and extend his authority. By 660 BC he had complete control of the entire Delta, and by 656 BC he had gained mastery over the entire rest of Egypt.

After him Nekau II ruled from 610-595 BC, and he was then followed by Psamtek II who ruled from 595-589 BC. At this point you enter the reign of Apries (589-570 BC), which brings us full circle.

Andre, please bear in mind that these are literal, or metaphrastic, translations, so they will differ from the prose translations considerably in some spots and not at all in other spots.

The research material that I used was:

1. Plato in twelve volumes - volume IX - Timaeus, Critias, Cleitophon, Menexenus Epistles with an English translation by R.G.Bury - published by Harvard University Press.

This book is part of the Loeb Classical Library, and the Greek text contained within is based upon that of the Zurich edition - the main deviations from which are indicated in the footnotes. It's ISBN is 0-674-99257-1, if that helps.

2. An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon - founded upon the 7th edition of Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon - published by Oxford University Press
It's ISBN is not listed inside the cover of the book anywhere. Sorry.

The first edition of this book was first published in 1889 and it was made from the last Edition (1883) of the Large Lexicon. It was an abridgement of that Large Lexicon, This is the 1997 impression of that book. It includes all of the changes from that time until now. It gives fuller explanations of the words by inserting the irregular forms of Moods and Tenses more fully, by citing the leading Authorities for the different usages, and by adding characteristic phrases. It is an invaluable tool for interpreting the Atlantis story correctly, and I would encourage everyone to go buy one. I will warn you, however, that they are not cheap! Mine ran $80 (U.S.) and the newest one, the 1999 version, runs about $120 (U.S.) - but it contains an addendum at the back.

I hope this is of some help.

Respectfully,

Apries was the 5th ruler of the 26th dynasty and Ahmose II was the 6th ruler of the 26th dynasty.

The Timeaus has been translated from the original version into Latin by Chalcidio in the fourth century BC. This version still seems to be available

Marsilio Ficini (1433-1499) translated all Plato´s work into Latin, the "Divini Platonis Operates Omnia", printed in Florence (Convent of Santiago of Ripoli) between 1482 and 1484

Aldus Manutius repeated that (Venice, 1513), and may have been using Ficini´s work

Gregorio García (1607) apparently may have used the same original for a Spanish translation.

Georgeos seems to be basing his work on these seemingly sound sources, apparently mainly by comparing Chalcidio and Ficini. However he may have found those sources in similar works you are referring to.

There seems to be no more original Greek version available of Plato´s work. It is unclear to me whether or not possible Greek versions have been translated back from available Latin versions or have been copied in the medieval monasteries. Later translations introduced errors caused by faulty dictionaries or subjective translators, changing sea-straits into oceans, superior to into bigger than and so on. Hence, it caused millions of Atlantis seekers to go astray all over the World, with Indonesia and Antarctica as exorbitant excesses (sorry, sometimes I tend toying with alliterations)

Anyway, Erick, as you seem to be heading for the Nile delta being Atlantis, you probably have a very different explanation for the "pillars of Hercules".

As I have stated before, there is an enormous amount of research material compiled aside from the metaphrastic translations. The translations were merely the experiment I performed. Allow me to explain.

Prior to beginning the investigation I was a huge Graham Hancock fan. I watched all the specials on TV, I own all his videos, I own all his books, except Underworld, which I have ordered from overseas (more out of curiosity to find out if my name is mentioned in the acknowledgements than anything else). I used to visit his site quite frequently and one day I contacted him with some of my work. To my surprise, he responded. I was delighted! He and I kept up rather regular correspondence for over two years during the time he was writing Underworld, and he even hired an underwater photographer and sent him to a specific site off the Mediterranean coast of Morocco based upon research material that I had sent him. But most importantly, he referred me to his literary agent in London, to whom I was able to send in a book proposal. It was rejected, but that's not really the point. This all goes to show just how much of a relationship Graham and I had developed. I once told him that I wanted he and Santha to be there with me when I discovered the site of the actual City of Atlantis. I still do; I think he has earned it.

But at some point our paths started diverging, Graham following his anti-academia, anti-scholarly dogma path, and myself leaning more towards hard science, scholarly dogma and academia. In fact, my goal now is to have my research accepted by academia and to take my place in history beside Heinrich Schleimann, as the 'outsider to academia' who discovered Atlantis. And I might point out just now that ol' Heinrich accomplished the discovery of Troy in the exact same manner that I am accomplishing the discovery of Atlantis.

The problem with most of the theories surrounding Atlantis is that they do not coalesce into complete, viable hypotheses that fit within the confines of already known history.

Part of the reason that scholars laugh at any mention of an Atlantis 9,000 years before the time of Solon, is that they know that the people of the Nile River Valley did not even begin their domestication of livestock and production of agriculture until around 7,000 BC. It would be another 3 to 4,000 years before they started keeping written records (i.e. the Narmer palette). This alone points to a problem with the figure of 9,000 years.

Undoubtedly, a high priest, of advanced years, in the Temple of Neith would have known just exactly how far back their own records went in time. They were immaculate record keepers of all of the events, not just within Egypt, but of the whole of the eastern Mediterranean.

I ,therefore, decided to employ Scientific Methodology to every aspect of my investigation. Here is my process outlined.

Data Collection Process: To examine as many investigations as possible into the Atlantis mystery to find out if there was a 'common thread' which contributed and or caused them to end in failure.

My Hypothesis: The text was the only 'common thread' that ran through every investigation, therefore the text must be mis-translated/mis-interpreted, and that is the reason that every investigation has failed.

The Experiment: To translate the text in a metaphrastic, or 'literal' sense (as opposed to Prose), to determine if it would make a difference in the investigation into the topic of Atlantis.

The Results: The metaphrastic translations support the already proposed hypothesis, by members of academia, that the Atlantis story is the story of the 'Invasions of the Sea People', found on the Ramesseum in Medinet Habu (albeit slightly altered by Greek syncretism).

I hope this helps you to understand the process I have used and my reasoning, Andre.

Incidentally, I have NOT placed Atlantis in the Nile Delta.

Also, any translation by any other culture would have to examine the syncretism which pervades that culture. Any translation is therefore suspect.

Respectfully,

I do apologize for my too fast conclusion. In one of your previous posts you mentioned an excessive flooding of the Nile delta. Hence the association.

As for the “Sea people”, there seem to be two separate references several sources mention.

Merenptah, (reigned 1213-1203 BC or 1212-1202 BC depending on the source), defeated the Sea Peoples, invaders from the Aegean

Ramses III (reigned 1182-1151 BC) defeated an attack by the Libyans from the west in the fifth year of his reign, and two years later he defeated invaders known as the Sea Peoples

No problem. Don't worry about it. There is a lot that you don't yet know about my research. If you knew it all I think you would understand completely. Over time I will probably share everything in this forum for the purposes of argumentation.

My mention of excessive Nile inundation (following the severe drought of the period ca.1200 BC) was in consideration of the "great inundations" mentioned by the Egyptian priest. My logic is this:

Egyptian priest & Egyptian history = Egyptian inundation (i.e. excessive Nile inundation).

Everyone always assumes that it was Atlantis that suffered the inundations. I've already sent an e-mail to Mark Lehner to find out if there are any reference sources in which I can look up that information. I'm waiting to hear back.

As for the Sea People, I have a mountain of information regarding them. In actuality, quite a bit is already know about them. I will share a lot of that in my next posting. Just be ready for a long one.

Incidentally, I have e-mailed Georgeos at Archaeo.com and invited him to participate in our forum. I think he's a little frustrated by all of the, uh, shall we just say "less scientific" theories being discussed. We'll see what happens.

Respectfully,

Thanks for sharing some of your research views with us. They are quite interesting.
I'm impressed with your rational approach, and naturally going back to the original text for translation, and seeing through the eyes of the Athenians, Egyptians and others of that time, is key to finding the truth.

I have not yet mentioned where I believe a city of Atlantis existed, if at all. I believe it is best to work up to such things and there is a great deal of information which I have not yet shared. Suffice it to say that I am not placing the city of Atlantis in Egypt. That is, however, where the priest was saying that the defeated tribes of the alliance were settled - in districts in the Delta region.

As to when it existed, all evidence points to no earlier than 1500 BC. and no later than 1180 BC.

Respectfully,

Welcome and thank you.

You do indeed see a new word. Syncretism. In this case, syncretism refers to the manner in which the Greeks and Romans routinely merged gods from many different cultures, who had similar descriptions, into one god with one name. To quote from my research paper:

quote:

---

The first difficulty encountered in attempting to identify the temple in the Atlantis text as Phoenician, is the problem of positively identifying the sea deity represented as Poseidon. In his contribution to the book The Phoenicians (Rizzoli International Publications, Inc., 1999), Sergio Ribichini points out that "All the classical sources raise this problem of fidelity to Phoenician religious facts. Although these sources must not systematically be considered suspect, it should be kept in mind that, in recording the information, the Greek or Latin author performs a mediation-alteration of the facts, due to his own cultural patterns." Dr. Ribichini also mentions that "Another example of the difficulties encountered in using classical sources is the impossibility of attributing a specific name to the Phoenician "Poseidon-Neptune," mentioned by so many authors and several inscriptions as being of primary importance in the religion of the Phoenician merchants and sailors. The Greek and Latin interpretation may identify not just one god, but various Phoenician deities similar to the "Lord of the Sea" in classical mythology."

---

If I have researched correctly (and I believe I have), then the Poseidon mentioned in the text is probably nothing more than the standard form of the "Lord of the Sea" with which the Greek author (Plato or Solon) is familiar, and that he has identified the sea deity with, whose real name is actually unknown.

Respectfully,

quote:

---

syn·cre·tism Pronunciation Key (sngkr-tzm, sn-)
n.
Reconciliation or fusion of differing systems of belief, as in philosophy or religion, especially when success is partial or the result is heterogeneous.
Linguistics. The merging of two or more originally different inflectional forms.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Greek sunkrtismos, union, from sunkrtizein, to unite (in the manner of the Cretan cities) : sun-, syn- + Krs, Krt-, Cretan.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
syn·cretic (-krtk) or syncre·tistic (-kr-tstk) adj.
syncre·tist n.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

syncretism

\Syn"cre*tism\, n. (Philol.) The union or fusion into one of two or more originally different inflectional forms, as of two cases.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

---

Hve to be gone for two days on assignment in Pittsburgh, PA. Talk at ya when I get back.

We know that cataclysm struck Earth-wide somewhere roughly between 1500 BC and 1150 BC. Wild stories about floods, earthquakes, intense fires originated from the stars, droughts caused havoc in the population. You´re probably going to tell us all about it. How about volcanic activity?

The Thera eruption is held responsible for all the trouble in some sources, but the timing seems heavily debated. Let me do some enlightening on that. Nowadays we have an excellent high resolution data set on paleo-volcanism from the GISP II ice cores of Greenland (a.k.a. Ice Hall Of Records ) The error margin is only around a year. Crosscheck is possible for some examples like Mt Pelee (1902AD), Krakatoa (1883AD), Tambora (1815AD), Vesuvius (79AD) and Mount Toba (69,108 BC)

The Thera eruption has been dated to a wide range according to geologic and archeological sources from 1425 BC to 1650 BC with a stronger cases for 1627-1628 BC, later this was denied again.

Now, what does GISP II tells us about volcanic activity in our episode of interest?
We have clear single volcanic eruptions only, with clear spikes in 1694BC, 1622BC (strongest) and 1190BC Furthermore we have prolonged stronger volcanic activity between 1458BC and 1452BC (highest spikes)and some weaker indications between 1670- 1667 BC, 1600-1598 BC and 1290-1264BC as well as some smaller spikes at 1440BC, 1336BC and 1326BC. Nothing seemingly significant in between those dates. Weaker and stronger is only relative of course to the distance to Greenland and the prevailing winds that will have influenced the amount of volcanic markers in the ice.

So the Thera/Santorini eruption could be most likely either 1622BC or 1458BC depending on other evidence. Perhaps this helps dating your events, Erick?

But, just to stir up the discussions, the single most strongest Volcanic tracer peak, much higher than the second best, occurred 11,234 years ago, or about ......9000 years before Plato (kidding); let's call that the Pleistocene Holocene boundary.

Hey, I'm back.

You have managed to catch my attention with some info in your last posting, specifically the eruption of 1190 BC. Is there any way to find out where that eruption occured? If it occured somewhere in the Mediterranean we might be able to tie the earth shakings to that event.

And what about later dates (i.e. dates after 1190 BC but before 650 BC) Is there any info available for that time period?

Is the GISP II available to access online?

I have already ruled out Thera because it occured too early and because it coincides more with the "exodus" of the jews from Egypt and all of the events surrounding that story.

Thanks.

Erick

A short while back I sent an e-mail to Georgeos asking him to participate in our forum. I received an e-mail back from him today. It reads:

quote:

---

Respected Mr. Wright:

I have not been able to respond its mail before, since it found to me immersed in an archaeological investigation in the area of the region of Gadeira or Gades (Cadiz) in front of the Columns of Hercules (Gibraltar). That is the reason for which I take a pair of weeks outside the forum of Atlantis Rising.

Will be a pleasure my power to establish authentic a dialectic scientist with You, Mr. Andre and yet that one that loves the scientific and rigorous discussion. Only him request that you have a little patience with me, since very I am occupied with the new investigations and discoveries, and with the search of which it translates my studies to the English to be able to publish my work in this language.

Respectful Greetings of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano

---

So, it would appear that Georgeos will be joining us on the forum within a couple of weeks or so.

Something to look forward to, eh?

Warm regards,

To get the little smiley faces to appear in the text, you use colon + right parenthesis for a happy smiley.
If you add a hyphen for his nose, he will not transform into a graphic smiley.

colon + left parenthesis
semi-colon + right parenthesis
colon + D

Nile Queen

No original copies of Plato's works have survived to us today.

You could check out some of the Neoplatonists, such as Proclinus, Crantor, St, Augustine and others, but you'll find mostly Latin translations of the text.

If you're really interested in creating a copy that's as close as possible to the original, then find a Greek copy and just eliminate the accents and breathing marks and convert all of the letters to upper-case. To find out what that would look like visit the following link.
http://www.plato-dialogues.org/papyrus.htm

To find out why:
http://www.plato-dialogues.org/works.htm

Respectfully,

Many thanks!

Earth has been rather quiet volcanicly (if that's a word ) in the 1100-800BC period except for a fairly strong isolated eruption in 1083BC. In the 700-600BC timeframe there has been a lot of smaller activity with a more distinct peak at 736BC.

As I'm neither geologist nor ice core specialist I can't tell you exactly but in some situations it appears to be possible to link the tracers to a certain area. Some of the dust particles in the ice may be identifyable. Perhaps Daffy Duck can help here. But there is an abundance of data and it may take years before they get to your eruption of interest, so you may want to take action.

Anyway, If you drop me a little E-mail on the address you find on my homepage http://home.wanadoo.nl/bijkerk I'm happy to return you all the volcanic GISP II data with the sources.

BTW This looks a lot like some items we have discussed: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/10/1017_NileCities.html

As I stated in my post dated 09-16-2002 (12:12), the whole Atlantis story is derived from the story of the Invasions of the Sea Peoples, found in the Ramesseum at Medinet Habu (near Thebes in Upper Egypt), The Harris Papyrus, the Victory or Israel Stela, the Karnak Inscription, the Athribis Stela, and the Cairo Column.

In order to understand the story completely, it is first necessary to get a little background information. To quote from The Epigraphic Survey, 1928-1931:

quote:

---

From time immemorial the Libyan tribes known to the Egyptians as the Tehenu and the Temehu, with certain subsidiary groups, had filled the western horizon of the Nile-dwellers with the constant menace of invasion. From the days of the Old Kingdom down, we have records of a long series of wars with these peoples. Apparently there never was any serious attempt on Egypt's part to conquer the Libyans and to hold their territory.

---

Merenptah did not inherite Egypt in the most idealic of situations. In the last few years of his reign, Ramesses II had allowed the Libyans to settle in the western Delta. On Egypt's eastern borders, foreign settlers had nearly ousted the native Egyptians. The extravagant building projects of Ramesses II had damaged the economy and nearly impoverished the people. For the first time in a long time, Egypt was in danger of being overrun.

The Libyan chief, Meryawy, saw all of this and believed that Egypt had grown weak. Realizing that this was his opportunity, Meryawy decided to attack and conquer the whole of the Delta - from where he would be in a good position to conquer the rest of Egypt. So confident was he of his victory that he even brought his wife and children and all of his possessions with him.

Meryawy strengthened his forces by adding contingents of foreign mercenaries. The Karnak Inscription records five other specific groups as part of that invasion:

1. The 'Akauasha', ('-k-w-s'), also referred to as the 'Ekwesh', are generally linked to the Homeric Achaeans.

2. The 'Tuaruasha', (Tw-rw-s'/Tw-ry-s'), also referred to as the 'Tursha', are generally linked to the Trojans.

3. The 'Ruakua' or 'Luakua', (Rw-kw or Lw-kw), also referred to as the 'Lukka', are generally linked to the Lycians of southwest Anatolia.

4 The 'Shardana,' 'Shardenu,' or 'Shardina,' (S'-r'd-n), also referred to as the 'Sherden', are generally linked to settlers from Sardis in western Anatolia who moved to the area of Akko north of Mount Carmel and eventually to Sardinia in Italy.

5. The 'Shara-ruasha', (s'-r'-rw-s'), also referred to as the 'Sheklesh', are generally thought to have moved later to Sicily.

In 1896, British archaeologist Flinders Petrie discovered the Victory Stela of Merenptah [(Baenra)(1213-1203 BC)], also called the Israel Stela because it carries the only known reference to Israel in all known Egyptian literature. This stela commemorates Merenptah's victory over the Libyan tribes and their allies in the 5th year of his reign.

Following is his Victory Poem, which is recorded on the stela:

[preamble]
Men will tell of his victories in all lands; all lands together are made to know and they are made to see the beauty of his valorous deeds.

[The poem then likens Merenptah to a "Strong Bull," which is an invocation of a more archaic Egypt.]

The sun, that drove away the clouds that were over Egypt, he that causeth Timuris (Egypt) to see the rays of the sun, he (Merenptah) removed a hill of brass from the back of the people, that he might give air to the folk that were in captivity. He that made Memphis to rejoice over their enemies, and made Ptah-Tenen to exult over his adversaries. He that openeth the gate of Memphis which had been shut, and made its temples to receive their victuals. Pharaoh Merenptah, the Sole One, that strengtheneth the hearts of hundreds, and breath cometh to their nostrils at the sight of him. The land of the Temehu was broken in his lifetime, and terror was forever put in the heart of the M'shauasha. He hath turned back the Libyans who trod Egypt, and great dread of Timuris is in their hearts; their march toward the heart of Egypt hath come to an end, and their feet make no stand, but fled. The archers cast away their bows, the heart of the fleet ones is wearied with marching. They loosed their waterskins and threw them on the ground; their sacks were torn and cast away. The miserable chieftain, the fallen one of Libya, fled under the cover of night, all alone, without the plume on his head, his feet failed. His wives were taken before his face; the victuals of his repast were captured; he had no water in the skin to sustain him. The countenance of his brethren was fierce to slay him; one fought against the other among his captains; their tents were burnt and reduced to ashes; all his goods were food for the soldiers. He reached his native country lamenting, and everyone that was left over in his land was enraged: "He is punished by fate, he with the base plume!" so say all they of his city concerning him, and: "He is in the power of all the gods of Memphis, the Lord of Egypt hath cursed his name. Meryawy is an abomination to Memphis, son to son of his family forever. Baenra-Beloved-of-Amun pursueth his children, and Merenptah-Contented-With-Truth is appointed as his fate."
So saith every man to his son: "Alas for Libya! They cease to live in the goodly fashion of walking about in the field. In a single day is an end put to their wandering, and in a single year are the Tehenu consumed. Sutekh (a Libyan war god derived from the Egyptian Seth) hath turned his back on their chieftain, and their settlements are destroyed with his authority. There is no work carrying these days. It is good to hide oneself; in the cave there is safety. The Great Lord of Egypt, might and valor belong to him. Who will yet fight, knowing how he strideth forward? A witless fool is he that awaiteth his onslaught, and he knoweth not what the morrow hath in store for him that transgresseth his boundary."
So saith Ra, the Lord of All: "Egypt is the only daughter of Ra, and it is his son that sitteth upon her throne. The eye of every god pursueth him that will plunder her. Give the scimitar to my son, the upright of heart, the kindly, the gentle, Merenptah-Beloved-of-Amun, who hath cared for Memphis, and pleaded the cause for Heliopolis; who hath opened the towns that were shut up, that he might set free the many that were confined in every region, that he might give offerings to the temple, and cause incense to enter before the god; that he might suffer the great ones to keep their possessions, and the humble to return to their cities."
So saith Ptah: "Let all his (Meryawy) sins be diverted together upon his head. Let him be given to the hand of Merenptah, that he may make him vomit forth what he hath swallowed like a crocodile. Behold the fleeter catcheth the fleet, and the Sovereign will ensnare in the net him that is aware of his strength. It is Amun who shattereth him with his hand, so that he may deliver him over to his ka in Hermonthis, even to Pharaoh Merenptah."
Great joy ariseth in Egypt, and jubilation issueth forth from the towns; they walk again unhindered upon the road, and there is no fear in men's hearts. The Matoi (Nubian police) lie inert and sleep; the Niaw and Tekten (western desert tribes that served as scouts and light infantry) are in the fields,wherein they desire to be; the towns are yet once more inhabited, and he that groweth his corn (a grain, not the familiar maize) will also eat it. Ra hath turned him to Egypt. He is born destined to be her protector, Pharaoh Merenptah. The chieftains lie prostrate and say 'Shalom.' The Tehenu hath been destroyed, the land of Hatti is peaceful, Canaan is captured with every evil, Askalon is carried away, Gezar is seized upon. Yenoam is made as nothing, Israel is desolated and hath no seed, Khari is become a widow for Timuris. All lands are united in peace, and whosoever went a roaming he is subdued by the Pharaoh of Upper and Lower Egypt, Baenra-Beloved-of-Amun, Son of Ra, Merenptah-Contented-With-Truth, who is given life like Ra every day.

The following is Merenptah's Triumph Song:

To Egypt has come great joy. The people speak of the victories which King Merenptah has won against the Tehenu:
How beloved is he, our victorious Ruler!
How magnified is he among the gods!
How fortunate is he, the commanding Lord!
Sit down happily and talk, or walk far out on the roads, for now there is no fear in the hearts of the people.
The fortresses are abandoned, the wells are reopened;
the messengers loiter under the battlements, cool from the sun;
the soldiers lie asleep, even the border-scouts go in the fields as they list.
The herds of the field need no herdsmen when crossing the fullness of the stream.
No more is there the raising of a shout in the night, "Stop! Someone is coming! Someone is coming speaking a foreign language!"
Everyone comes and goes with singing, and no longer is heard the sighing lament of men.
The towns are settled anew, and the husband man eats of the harvest that he himself sowed.
God has turned again towards Egypt, for King Merenptah was born, destined to be her protector.

quote:

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2. An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon - founded upon the 7th edition of Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon - published by Oxford University Press It's ISBN is not listed inside the cover of the book anywhere. Sorry.

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The ISBN is 0199102066. You can find it by going to either Amazon or Barnes & Noble and doing a search on the title. It's still in print and goes for about $45 US.

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It follows along with, or runs parallel to, the Graham Hancock religion which preaches that scholars and academics are wrong; that history needs to be rewritten. He wants to believe, and wants others to believe that civilization developed, to a level almost equal with our own, then due to some major catastrophe regressed and redeveloped. This would have the Atlantean civilization existing inside a vacuum in time and history.

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Not at all; the Mahabharata and other ancient Vedic texts describe such a global civilization. Comparing it to modern civilization in terms of technology can be misleading, particularly when viewed through Theosophic and Edgar Cayce viewpoints (for example). There has been an unfortunate history of European scholars rewriting the history of ancient Asia to fit preconceived moulds -- moulds based on Christian doctrine, in most cases. I have spoken at length with many Hindus (both scholars and lay people) regarding the antiquity of these legends, who date these legends to what we think of as the early Stone Age. They accept the rewriting of their history as just another indignity foisted on them by the British.

This is not to say that the Vedas even mention Atlantis or anything even remotely like Atlantis; they don't (despite Childress' claims). However, they do point to an advanced culture in the Indian subcontinent and certain other areas of the world during the European stone age. We know that not all cultures advance in a parallel technological evolution, and that even during the atomic age that stone age tribes still exist. That humanity's history may have had other cycles of cultural and/or technological advancement in prehistory is only odd to those who have been trained to consider it so. Taken in the measure of the rise and fall of civilizations and technologies throughout recorded history, it is not surprising at all. No, I'm not advancing the theory that the Atlanteans were as Cayce or Blavatsky suggest, or even that the Mahabharata should be taken literally. What I am trying to state is that just because archaeology and history that has been largely influenced by Judeo-Christian bias has not brought to light evidence of civilizations which predate recorded history does not mean that such evidence has not been gathered -- or that such evidence does not exist.

Now I won't go so far as to state that every one of Hancock's premises is a solid fact (nor would I with everything presented from any one viewpoint). Yet to blindly accept the European assertions that all of the ancient legends exagerrated their ages and/or other facts, is akin to accepting Aristotle's assertion that Plato invented Atlantis. Hancock may have gone too far in his extreme (not having paid overmuch attention to his theories, I cannot judge). I would just ask that you would please not go to an opposite extreme by disregarding the possibility that some aspects of academic history may indeed need to be rewritten, particularly when it comes to the histories of other cultures.

My own view is that (1) Solon was describing Santorini or a Phoenician connection as you suggest; and (2) Plato combined elements of the story that he had learned from Solon with information from other Mediterranean histories; i.e., he described several different cultures under the heading of "Atlantis," and this included the Minoans (i.e., Santorini), the Pheonicians, and quite probably the Tartessans (Iberians) during different periods, and that all of them were referred to as "Sea Peoples."

That the Iberians probably had coastal cities on the Atlantic -- we know that the Phoenicians went as far as Tintagel in England for tin, so it is at least possible -- may have contributed to the story.
Finally, we have a legend of a sunken kingdom off of Brittany called "Ys." "Ys" in some Celtic languages means "island." Perhaps "Atlantis" was simply a bastardized form of "Island in the Atlantic," and that both the legend of Ys and the legend of Atlantis originally came from a single origin. Or, it could have just as easily referred to an island within the Mediterranean (though I feel that this is a stretch personally) that was part of the Atlas mountain range.

While I find no fault in your historic reasoning regarding Solon's journey to Egypt and the surrounding details thereof (or of the basic theories underlying Santorini as a candidate for Atlantis), I do not think that it captures everything regarding the entirety of the legend.

Well, I've rambled on enough for one evening, and I hope that at least a bit of it has made sense; my apologies if it has not.

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samasaMdhi, parijJA, & manISitA, antaHpratiSThita saMdhyAMzaka,
R. Bruce
(sanIyasrudra, garuDa)
--------
As I learn more, I become more aware of the limits of my knowledge.

Back to the story.

The Libyans had penetrated the buffer territory west of the Delta and were encroaching on Egyptian lands. Five groups of "Sea Peoples" had joined and armed the Libyans, and together they were all conspiring to attack the cities of Memphis and Heliopolis, which were the great administrative and religious centers near the Delta's apex.

On a spring day in 1209 BC, at dawn, the Libyans and their allies arrived ready for a pitched battle. Instead, Merenptah unleashed his archers on them and for six hours they massacred the confederation of tribes. After six hours the Libyan chief, Meryawy, fled, and Merenptah's chariotry and infantry routed the demoralized forces. The Egyptian records indicate that nearly 9,400 Libyans and Sea Peoples were killed in that single, brief encounter.

I would now like to include a couple of quotes from a paper entitled "The Sea Peoples in Sicily, Sardinia, and Etruria: A Reexamination of the Archaeological and Textual Evidence in Light of Recent Research"

quote:

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"The Shardana, Shekelesh, and Teresh, some of the tribes of "Sea Peoples" known from their raids on Egypt during the reigns of Merneptah (1212-1202 BC) and Ramesses III (1182-1151 BC), have been associated with the Tyrhennian regions of Sardinia, Sicily, and Etruria. Originally, these connections were based primarily on etymological and philological reasoning, but there is now significant archaeological evidence of links between the western and eastern Mediterranean beginning with the Late Bronze Age."

"In this paper I will show that not only is there significant archaeological evidence from the Late Bronze Age for eastern Mediterranean contact with several (underlined) centers in the west, but that communication continued even after the period of destruction that is so evident in mainland Greece, Anatolia and the Levant."

"I suggest that some of the Tyrhennian regions do in fact owe their names to the Sea Peoples, but only in the context of Phoenician prospection, mercantilism and ultimately colonization which maintained this contact between east and west."

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If you bear in mind that the lands supposedly controlled by the Atlanteans inside the Straits of Gibraltar included Libya from as far as Egypt, and Europe as far as the Tyrhennian regions, then there should be no doubt that the Atlantis story is, indeed, the story of the Invasions of the Libyans and Sea Peoples.

Respectfully,

A quick question: how did the evolution of the technology of seafaring during the era that you describe above effect the expansion of the "sea peoples"?

TIA,

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samasaMdhi, parijJA, & manISitA, antaHpratiSThita saMdhyAMzaka,
R. Bruce
(sanIyasrudra, garuDa)
--------
As I learn more, I become more aware of the limits of my knowledge.

Thank you for your response.

Also, thank you for the ISBN number. I'm not sure why it did not occur to me to look it up at Barnes and Noble dot com. I bought my Lexicon in 1998 at a Borders bookstore and, at that time, I paid $75 plus tax. It doesn't appear as if I got a very good deal, does it? They have apparently come down in price since then.

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Not at all; the Mahabharata and other ancient Vedic texts describe such a global civilization.

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Oldreds, they may, but there is no mention of a global civilization found in Plato's text.

Placing a city, whose description matches that of a Late Bronze Age city, in the Stone Age (Late Pleistocene) IS placing it in a vacuum in time and history. And while I am prepared to accept the possibility of such a scenario, I also have to acknowledge its implausibility!

The term "Sea Peoples" is one that scholars have coined. The Egyptians themselves never used the phrase, nor did they have a generic single name for all of the invaders. Instead, they refer to the invaders as "foreigners from the sea" coming from the "northern countries" or "their isles" (rww) beyond the sea (Mediterranean).

The words for 'isles' or 'islands' in the ancient Egyptian heiroglyphic language actually refer to "coastland," "land at the estuary of a river," or "low-lying land."

The Celts did not reach Brittany until well after 1200 BC.

It does not capture everything regarding the entirety of the legend because you have not even heard 1/10 of the material yet. Give me time and it will all come out.

Respectfully,

As far as the Celts go: since they were primarily land-locked, it is possible that "Ys" came from a pre-Celtic people in Brittany. Possibly the ancestors of the "Windmill Hill" people of Britain. My point is that perhaps both Atlantis and Ys came from the same original legend.

As far as the book is concerned, see the following search engines for decent deals on books (I'm a bookseller myself):
http://www.abe.com/ (Advanced Book Exchange)
http://www.allbookstores.com/ (All Bookstores)
http://www.alibris.com/ (Alibris)

I don't sell through these, but sometimes broker books that others on these sites sell.

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samasaMdhi, parijJA, & manISitA, antaHpratiSThita saMdhyAMzaka,
R. Bruce
(sanIyasrudra, garuDa)
--------
As I learn more, I become more aware of the limits of my knowledge.

GVP has reformatted their website, and I can no longer find the raw (ASCII) data - they force you to querry eruptions (here, by date). I hope I have that old file somewhere...
http://www.volcano.si.edu/gvp/faq/quest_07.cfm

You will have to do some hard digging, now, to find a volcanic match.

Note: looks like you can querry in 10-year increments, i.e. -1090 (=1090 BC), then -1080 (=1080 BC). Of course, the eruptions are "1080 BC +/- 100 years"

quote:

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If you bear in mind that the lands supposedly controlled by the Atlanteans inside the Straits of Gibraltar included Libya from as far as Egypt, and Europe as far as the Tyrhennian regions, then there should be no doubt that the Atlantis story is, indeed, the story of the Invasions of the Libyans and Sea Peoples.

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The Libyan chief, Meryawy, saw all of this and believed that Egypt had grown weak. Realizing that this was his opportunity, Meryawy decided to attack and conquer the whole of the Delta - from where he would be in a good position to conquer the rest of Egypt. So confident was he of his victory that he even brought his wife and children and all of his possessions with him.

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Placing a city, whose description matches that of a Late Bronze Age city, in the Stone Age (Late Pleistocene) IS placing it in a vacuum in time and history. And while I am prepared to accept the possibility of such a scenario, I also have to acknowledge its implausibility!

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In 1896, British archaeologist Flinders Petrie discovered the Victory Stela of Merenptah [(Baenra)(1213-1203 BC)], also called the Israel Stela

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The Shardana, Shekelesh, and Teresh, some of the tribes of "Sea Peoples" known from their raids on Egypt during the reigns of Merneptah (1212-1202 BC) and ……

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Just a quick not to let you all know that I will be gone for two days (Monday and Tuesday).

Sorry I haven't responded to your most recent posts, but I promise I will when I return.