-------------------- The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." Posts: 12846 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
A lot of work went into this paper. It is a fine geographical proof.
As far as the Jowett translation... I dislike it. The bury translation is good. We have a latin translation as well. ******************** I am not sure about the etruscan language being 5000 years old. In fact, Etruria(900BC?) is a name that occurs after Tyrhenia(1200BC).
The name "malta" is not used until a pretty late date. The old name is "Melita".
********* I see a copyright from 2003... no updates in 4 years?
[ 02-02-2007, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Danaus ]
Posts: 2573 | From: Parts Unknown, USA | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
The term Malta was not in use until pretty late in time; it was called Melita by Skylax, Ptolemy and Strabo. Seems to derive it's name from the Greek word for Honey.
quote: "From Hermaia cape towards the sun at it rises (a small way from Hermaia) are three small islands by this place, inhabited by Carthaginians: Melite, a city with a harbour; Gaulos, a city; Lampas (this has two or three towers)." -- Skylax
"Off Pachynus lie Melita,163 whence come the little dogs called Melitaean, and Gaudos, both eighty-eight miles distant from the Cape." -- Strabo
posted
Having just read your excellent paper based on ancient Egyptian sources translated by Plato I can see immediately the confirmed understanding that Malta did once house a large and flourishing society. I have read elsewhere of the land tracks and submerged roads that tie in with your dates c9000BC.
But why must these findings be linked to Atlantis? Why not at this stage develop your theory to underscore that civilisation did indeed flourish prior to 11500BCE?
Excellent work!
John.
Posts: 140 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
Nikas, There is no need to be so defensive or so conclusive in protecting your theory. You are in good company and not one that would be idle or arrogant in any judgement. Your ‘Eureka’ may have foundation, but will be open to critical analysis, as all theories must be.
You see, everyone has there own theories or those that assiduously follow the Atlantean theories of others. Yours is but one more to be assimilated. Now that said, I am not an expert on Atlantis or on Plato, however, I do have a long research history into the cataclysmic events of around 11500BCE and what might have been a high spread of world civilisation - before it was wiped out.
I have now re-read your paper, and it is excellent work of a serious and very researched nature. I hope others will read it too!
What I do pick up, with great interest, from your research is the pre-c9000BC Mediterranean dry landmasses. This underlies my own understanding that the Mediterranean was once a series of land locked lakes. That’s why I think, in part, your own theory needs to be developed further. Plato, with regard to Solon, in my view drew on localised memories of this flood, brought to us today in many stories such as the Deucalion’s Flood, a deluge myth, whose own origins are likely to be Sumerian due to the striking similarities of the much older Epic of Gilgamesh.
What is missing is the wider world impact of the events of 11500BCE, knowing that mankind inhabited every corner of the globe before being practically wiped out. Plato is but one remembrancer among thousands.
John.
Posts: 140 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2006
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You will note that Giorgio Grongnet is considered to be the father of the Malta theory. He claimed back in 1854 that the Maltese Islands were the remnants of Atlantis.
Tom
Posts: 2602 | From: North Carolina | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Nikas, You are quite right, I don’t understand ancient Greek, however, very few ancients Greeks would have understood ancient Egyptian, less still, ancient Sumerian. They relied upon word of mouth and the art of storytelling of a world far removed from them as it is to us today. That doesn’t mean that Plato is to be discounted as a creditable source of a civilisation lost, neither does it mean that we should be myopic in accepting his as the only one - as you are willing to do.
My friend, 11500 years ago this world we live in was subjected to near worldwide extinction, that in geological terms was quite recent. At this time Malta, Crete, Mainland Greece, Italy, Scilly, Sardinia, Corsica, Cyprus, Southern France then north to Britain, Scandinavia, Siberia, Alaska, the American and Asian great plains, down south to the rest of the Americas and south Africa, where further we find Antarctica, were all subject to same simultaneous 1st degree disaster.
What you have discovered is evidence of this calamity. What you are stating, however, is that this evidence correlates a theory, a fact in your mind, that Plato has painted the perfect picture in which you can rest your research upon.
I feel, that if you are serious about your work, as indeed you are, then you should open up your boundaries beyond your own Mediterranean backyard.
Now your own writings actually give you a clue. Prior to the events of 11500BCE the Mediterranean land areas, including Malta, were inhabited by animals such as Hyena, Lion, large bears, straight tusked Elephants, pygmy Elephants, dwarf Hippopotamus, before their whole sale destruction. This is exactly the same Late Pleistocene evidential story we see across the world. You also say there are no houses on Malta, only temples. Again, you should be aware that when the catastrophe happened a great crushing wave passed over Malta taking with it all the superficial soil on the island. Malta, as it happens, is still quite a barren island, with no mountains or rivers.
John.
Posts: 140 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
No, it wasn't me, but over the years I have found quite a few good articles at that website.
Posts: 2602 | From: North Carolina | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Malta/Melita is a settlement of Atlanteans. Africa is a settlement of Atlanteans.
The Tarxiens are the Tarshin or Tarshish of The Bible and not Tartessos,Spain.
They may at one time had rule in the Nile Delta with an earlier than Pharaoh Menes ruler named "TshTsh" from the Palermo Stone found at the Rosetta Branch.
-------------------- .111.[R].Riven The Seer and Royal Bloodline to Atlantis.[R].111.
You appear to be objecting yet you cannot coherently put together your argument. I think you want to dispute this excellent piece of scholarship just so that you can appear to be a scholar yourself.
This is a compelling piece of research and it should now become the standard against which all other Atlantis theories should be judged against.
posted
Epsilon, Do the read whole exchange within the thread.
Thank you,
John
Posts: 140 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2006
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Epsilon
unregistered
posted
I the read the whole exchange.
NIKAS is confining the debate to Atlantis. You want to expand it to the entire presence of man post glacial melt down. This is not Atlantis.
Atlantis is Plato.
The history of civilization in the greater European/North African realm, post glaciation is another topic entirely. It is interesting, yes. But it is not Atlantis.
...one thing is for sure; that the only credible reference is Plato. I disregard everything else as speculations. The problem is that everybody is reading the English version and no-one cares to read the ancient version. It is so clear; it says before you reach a certain place. In our case the Pillars of Hercules. No mater where the pillars are this point proves that Atlantis is within the Mediterranean area. We are talking about the time of Plato. endquote
There have been some scholars on this website at various times in recent years. For example, Georgios, Erick, Ulf, and others. And as a result, many people on this bulletin board know that the Perseus-Tufts online dictionary is very comprehensive for Greek-Latin-English translations.
Acoording to the Perseus-Tufts website, Plato's phrase about Atlantis being "pro" the pillars of Hercules has two allowaable types of senses: either literal or figurative.
Aristotle typically thought and wrote in the literal sense.
However Plato was more subjective than Aristotle.
And in its figurative sense: "pro" tends to mean - "standing as a substitute for something, in a conflict". For example modern lawyers appear in court "pro" their clients. Alternately, if someone chooses to defend himself personally in court, he is acting "pro se".
The upshot of this is that Plato intended to use the figurative sense for his statement about the location of Atlantis, and thus Plato meant that Atlantis was a "substitute for the Pillars of Hercules".
posted
The one under your name...I have two and I am on the high flight one now. I go back and forth with my Icons. But, you have proven yourself with the data you presented. I like what I am reading...you sound like my cousin. But, I know he would tell me if you were so I think you must be a highly intellectual thinker...I like thinkers. Keep up the good work.
[ 02-05-2007, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Orion von Koch ]
Posts: 7909 | From: West Texas, Big Bend National Park | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
> It’s all about how to make a computer think > like a human?!
..and if in parallel you can also make a human think like a computer you will eventually "merge" the two worlds...into one integrated virtual reality environment!
One will then wonder where the computer ends and the human starts or vice versa!!!
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Epsilon
unregistered
posted
The internet has replaced the need for human memory - that is for facts.
But further integration will be interesting because it will confuse computer generated memory with real memory. Memories will become a lie just as information becomes blurred and distorted as to its validity when randomly plucked from Google.
posted
It really depends on what human (real) memory is being used for! Like real-time code (mind) execution or long term storage...
Note that we are all already sub-consciously plugged in...Please review the day cycle, like for example what happens when the mind goes to sleep mode...
..on a daily basis, and what happens when one does not get enough sleep...
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quote:Originally posted by NIKAS: We are talking about the time of Plato. Do you think that Plato would know about Gibraltar? Come on, the only known world is Sicily, Libya, Rome, Illyria, Syria and Egypt and probably Babylon. Those are the boundaries of the known world for Plato. He actually visited all these places, he liked to travel. He never mentions Gibraltar?!
Dear Mr. Nica (or Victory?):
From long before Plato, even from before Solon, the Greeks knew very well where they were left the only Pillars of Hercules who they knew with that name. All the references that exist, from before Plato, demonstrate that the Greeks knew the location well the Pillars of Hercules in the Western end, near or next to Gadeira and Tartessos, that is, in Gibraltar. The explanation, in addition, is very simple, the Greeks had colonies in Iberia from before the Solon's times.
It has been doing for or more than ten years that I demonstrated that affirmations like which you do of which Plato did not know where located the Pillars of Hercules, or who did not know anything on where it was the Atlantic, they are completely erroneous, and false!, because the name of the Atlantic or is mentioned in several authors previous to Solon like Stesykhorus, that not only mentions the Atlantic, but also that identifies of very clear way to the Straits of Gibraltar, and in such wild of the Atlantic, in its union with the inner or Mediterranean Sea, that is, in the present Straits of Gibraltar. Stesykhorus wrote shortly before the visit of Solon to Sais, and describes much later to the “sea-arm of the Atlantic”, with he himself term used by Plato, that is, “Atlantikou Pelagos”, and the same can be said of other authors like Ephicarmus, Íbykus, Skylax and Pherékides; whereas before Plato, Eurípides, Píndarus and he himself Heródotus, mention to the Atlantic, and the Columns of Hercules next to Gadeira or Cadiz.
All this evidence two truely worrisome facts:
1. The authors who affirm that before Plato, or Solon, the Greeks or the Egyptians (remember the Nekau expedition) did not know the Atlantic, or where were the Columns of Hercules, either they ignore these evidences of the classic sources, or...
2. Or they do it of deliberate way, to hide the evidences that go against their theories, and thus to be able to confuse the readers, by mere convenience.
I prefer to think well of the other investigators. I always grant the benefit to them of the innocence presumption; while proofs does not demonstrate another thing. And in this world of the Atlantology, I am convinced that in most of the cases, these erroneous affirmations and deceits, they take place by simple ignorance of the sources, that is to say, by people that do not know or the sources classic the antiquity, which it exculpates at least of any act of intentionality.
My to have, in this case, it is simply to warn to the author or investigator who exposes these errors or deceits, so that she does not return to commit errors such.
In many sites I have published the exact appointments in Greek, and with his translations, but it prefers it we can return them to publish again here. In any case, you only think about a thing: we are going to imagine, to suppose, that no writer has never existed before Plato; that is, we are going to suppose that never they had appeared written of Herodotus, Pindarus, Stesykhorus, Skylax, that is, that no has existed before Plato, even so, and still in spite of this, we know by archaeology, that the Greeks had colonies in Iberia from several centuries before Plato, now you think a little while...
You believe, sincerely, that a philosopher of the great intellectual stature as Plato, did not go that is to know anything of remote territories of Iberia where many Greeks lived and where many traveled for businesses?
With this brief and simple exercise one only demonstrates that although they had never appeared classic documents of other Greek authors previous to Plato, who attest the existence of the Atlantic and the position of the Pillars of Hercules, in Gibraltar, still in spite of this, Plato would have all the probabilities perfectly of knowing the location the Atlantic and the Pillars of Hercules, as he himself says with amazing exactitude, "before the mouth" (pro tou stomatós), in the “Atlantikou Pelagos”.
posted
I reckon youre all wrong about Atlantis, youre all in the wrong time frame. Right of the mark.
The Egyptians got there religions from Dilmun The Andites who came from the East spreading there empire to the west. There homeland of legends sunk, simple and brought the story which became part of the Egyptian culture.
quote:
Enki describes Dilmun
quote: "...Bit-Iakin on the shore of the Bitter Sea, as far as Dilmun's border- all these I brought under one rule..." (p. 335. Potts)
"...Uperi, king of Dilmun, whose camp is situated, like a fish, thirty beru (double-hours) away in the midst of the sea of the rising sun..." (p. 334. Potts)
Hymns to Enki, who resided at Eridu, stated that the city was at the edge of _the sea_ and the shadow cast by its fruit trees panted by his shrine fell upon the nearby snake marsh.
The Mesopotamians called the salt-marshes marattu meaning "bitter" (marah = bitter), perhaps the Hawr Hammar preserves in Arabic the earlier Mesopotamian marattu ?
(Seems almost to match dilmun, submerged Northeastern Persian Gulf.)
Quote: The outline of Dilmun does have a North South aspect and if it did reside on a peninsula backed by freshwater bays and quays it would of been literally seen as in the midst of the sea. appearing to be jutting out in the sea of water on spit of land or a isthmus. It also makes reference to his shrine Babel which of course was close to the sea on the spit of land within Dilmun. This shrine Enki makes reference to is the tower of Babel being of a circular structure, raised and close to the sea and is evident in the images;. The Design of Dilmun including the Circular temple and the walls of Dilmun does look like a fish jutting out into the midst of the sea on an isthmus.
His fruit trees cast shadows upon his shrine, upon examination there is a walled area close to the shrine where farming would of taken place, this would be next to the shrine, like the Kings Gardens. When you look to the North of the shrine there are walls that run for miles fully enclosed and used for protection, farming and produce. Also the Shrine is adjacent to the Snake marsh or a body of water close by it. The walls seem to be next to the snake marsh that extended to the marshy swamp area to the North.
Note that Dalamatia has the same rectangular walled area used for growing produce.
Also the City of Dilmun, possibly on a isthmus in the North South aspect looks like a fish, the outline of Dilmun looks like an actual fish. With protection all around. Also the snake marsh could be the depressed area on the eastern side of the walls. It appears that Dilmun was almost surrounded by water, swamp marshes lakes and lagoons. It was a well protected commercial centre.
Which was the first place that sunk 150,000 years ago. 1stEden was 38,000 - 34,000 years Dilmun was 50,000 - 10,000 from 300BC
I think the Atlantis story is combination of aspects of Dilmun and 1Eden and Dalamatia all rolled up in a bag of literal myth.
Forget about the 1200 - 800 BC time range all that is recent history.
Robert Sarmast is right, Im right and Nikas is wrong! hehehe
Nah just joking, Nikas is partially correct about a civilisation but it was the Andites from the East who inhabited the island. These Andites came from Dilmun and Mesopotamia as the sea levels rose and flooded the ancient cities. These migrating Andites brought circle maker with them and nurtured the symbol of there homeland in there religions. These circle markers are in Malta. But Malta was colony of the Andites and wasn't the first place of the legendary Atlantis . The same spread of this culture can be seen in Spain in regards to the spread of the circle emblem the Andite/Babel/Circle culture.
Plato gives a very precise geographic description which Malta matches very closely including references to Athens, North Africa, Spain etc. Dilmun is clearly out of bounds on this. Nor is Dilmun subject to periodic catastrophes as the Mediterranean isles are vis a vis earthquakes etc.
posted
Malta was larger then...The Med had not filled yet. The tracks prove that in that they go out into the water for miles...The bones held in the various caves including the Hypogeum were persons trying to escape the tsunami created by the Carolina Bays Event. Indeed, one must realize that this event took years and was very complex according to the evidence. It is fun watching you young guys try to think upon this...I am happy to observe...such great talent...so little time.
Malta was not Atlantis it was part of the Great Earth Culture that was Atlantis...
I am working on a movie script about this...anyone interested in such a project??? It would be a major work and I need thinkers in the background. It is called A SECRET CLOSELY HELD...
[ 02-06-2007, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Orion von Koch ]
Posts: 7909 | From: West Texas, Big Bend National Park | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
No worries to what you say. I was just being tardy when I said you're all wrong. aah I was just having a fun and stirring you all. Give you all a hard time.
But anyway I do feel that the Atlantis story is a blend of many ancient places of the Gods. Going by gut here the Atlantis story has many characteristics that seem to have specific matches to each submerged places speaking of Dalamatia, Dilmun, Babel and Eden.
Ive been researching the fact of the matter for a while and the more I discover the more it appears that the Atlantis story is admixed with other relevant details of the other ancient places.
If you combine all the elements of the Atlantis story in detail I feel I see characteristics and elements that pertain to each ancient place in specific details.
For example the circles of Atlantis and circle of Babel, I believe is the same connection also you can see the same circle in Sumerian tablets coming from the same area. We know the Sumerians followed the Nodite idea of the Gods rather than the 1Eden truth of Adam because they has great pride in there Nodite traditions and Babel was a clear example of that. Babel is the circle of pride of the Sumerians. The Sumerian notion has direct connection to Dilmun as through the circle of power, seen in the tabltes. According to the Sumerians, Dilmun was the bright place but really speaking, Dalamatia was the real bright place in the true history of man.
We also know that the Sumerian legends of old are all a garbled memory of the Gods and there fate is being a combination of 1Eden(Adam) and Dalamatia (The first home of the Gods). Therefore there is an amount of confusion, Im assuming by what I see the Atlantis story may also be affected in the same way. Garbled memories of the Gods and spread over a number of places with elements of each ancient place in specific detail of happened there or how it happened but all combined in a story.
for example Dilmun was submerged by rising sea levels around 10,000 years ago from 600BC like in Atlantis. That fits perfect with the submergence of Dilmun. The inhabitants of Dilmun and the Persian Gulf migrated to the West, Egypt and through to Europe bringing there legends and symbols.
Also the destruction of 1Eden and the Gilbraltor break fits perfect with the Atlantis destruction. another subtle connection but this time related to 1Eden not Dilmun. Dilmun I would think submerged over time slowly compared to the destruction of 1stEden.
I'm not sure if I can prove any of this but I feel its worth considering all the other ancient places that been discovered which are connected together in one way or another.
quote:Originally posted by NIKAS: I will tell you a little secret; The region of gades is nothing more than the Region of Gabes in Tunisia, facing Malta.....you still have your doubts now. There is no B as in English, in Greek language, so may as well get corrupted to D. in order to get B in Greek you have to connect MP. B is pronounced V. Have a nice day…. Nikas
Dear Nika:
Exact!, but the Greeks never had no problem in transcribing names foreign written with B. In fact, exist very many examples, although I will only mention a few: Arabia, and its forms like Arrabia, Arabios, Arabis, Arabissa and Arabes, and also Babes, Eulabes, Zabes, Labes, Skabes, Chabes, that finish just as Gabes; and finally, Gabianos (natural of Gabes).
We can then observe as never the Arabes name were transcribed, by Arades, or Arabia by Aradia, nor Gabianos (of Gabes) by Gadianos. I can show a list to him of numerous similar Greek names, finished in - abe/-aba/-abi/-abo/, etc., that demonstrate that the Greeks never had no difficulty for this syllabic sound with the B.
On the other hand, if he had taken place a change in the phonetics, all the experts in grammar and Greek verbal morphology and phonetic perfectly know that he would have been with some of the equivalent ones of the B, that is, with P and PH, or with the M, but never with the D.
In addition, you ignore something very important, and is that you are comparing Gades, that is the Roman form of the name of Cadiz, that in Greek always was written like Gadeira, and never like Gades; therefore, this speculation hers cannot be maintained from the point of view of the scientific reason.
So that the hypothesis which You raise, of which in fact Plato was speaking of Gabes, instead of Gades, so that (according to You) the Greeks transcribed the B by the D, first would have to demonstrate sufficient examples of other cases of foreign names written with the completion - abe/-abes that the Greeks have transcribed by the completion -ade/-ades. Nevertheless, not exists a even single example that is unquestionable.
Also it would have to demonstrate that the Greeks when they spoke of the region of Gadeira (that always was next to the Pillars of Hercules), used although it is a single time, a form like Gades; nevertheless, this is not certain either, only the Romans used at very delayed time the Gades form, after leaving older forms like Gadir and Gadira (derived from the Greek Gadeira).
Conclusion: the hypothesis is false. As anyone can verify, I have been able to refute it without no difficulty.
I trust that You know to accept it with total tranquillity of spirit, like all good scientist who knows very well that all the hypotheses, so that they are really scientists, must be possible to refute; and in this case, You have formulated a scientific hypothesis, because it was possible to verify and possible to refute like false. And that same one I have been able to make, that is, refute it, and demonstrate that is false or erroneous.
posted
Hi Working on the current thought from my last post.
Maybe the Atlantis Story is much bigger than one location and spread throughout all the places and each aspect of Atlantis can be identified in each ancient location through commonality.
Perhaps the Atlantis story is much bigger than we think??
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